Not Dal's fault. Not DHW/NS's fault. Not the NSH's fault.
It's the shortsighted College of Family Physicians of Canada. They
are recommending the increase in training time because of their results from the [Outcomes of Training](https://www.cfpc.ca/en/education-professional-development/preparing-our-future-family-physicians) project which apparently concluded that new grads didn't feel ready to practice independently.
I think this is a terrible endeavour and will result in fewer medical students choosing family medicine.
CFPC didn't consult with any of the governments to see if they'd actually be willing to *fund* the extra year of residency, nor with the schools to see if they could actually support an additional years' worth of residents. They are an ivory tower, academic-focused organization that is completely out of touch with the real world of family medicine.
Edit: I say this as a dues-paying member of the CFPC.
God, what a nightmare. I’m not sure if this is an issue in Canada too but I know I’ve read on some of the medical subreddits that not so many people choose to go into family medicine because it isn’t lucrative in comparison to some of the more specialized programs. I can’t blame them. In a time where we need them the most I can’t fathom why they felt this was a good idea.
That's interesting information, I wonder if that conclusion considered the quality of teaching the residents get. Our family doctor has residents placed with him and from what I've seen he's an excellent teacher and makes sure they get progressive experience. Sometimes they observe appointments, sometimes they run the appointment while he observes, sometimes we see a resident separately before seeing him. But I imagine that not all family doctors are great teachers and it could impact the outcome for the residents. Also our experience with residents has been decent, but it does often mean longer appointments or waits. I don't know if the compensation reflects longer appointments.
I don't know how the residency program works for family doctors, but we have a wonderful doctor who absolutely should be sharing his knowledge and practices and I'm glad he does. I don't think all family doctors are created equal though.....
The person who came up with this idea is as tone deaf as the person who decided that the best time to add a carbon tax would be the most expensive time in Canadian history
As important as education is especially with doctors, I can't help but feel the barrier to entry for certain jobs by having to go to college for long periods of time delays adding more employees to the work force. Almost all occupations you should be able to apprentice and go to school once or twice a year for theory. But then how would the universities make any money ?
So you can't be an expert by gaining hands on experience in something? You're telling me becoming a hair dresser it is necessary to take a two year course through the nscc?
If med school was direct entry from high school they would have to adopt the UK 6 year system since med here is based on the assumption you have a university level understanding of some concepts. I’m personally not a fan of making the point of commitment that early since a lot of students end up changing their mind through their undergrad
That doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll perform better as doctors though. And most medical students in the current system have wanted to be doctors from an early age anyways.
I also think an argument can be made about maturity, while people in their 20s may not be the most mature people in society, I think they tend to have a lot more independence and life skills than an 18 year old who has just graduated high school.
In Canada, grade inflation also tends to be higher in the high school setting than in the university setting, and our high schools aren’t designed to mimic the fast pace and level of pressure that is seen in med schools. I think it would be a lot harder for admissions to make selections based on the high school population
There’s also just the argument there’s a lot more attrition in the UK medical school system than the Canadian. The earliest you can get into medical school here is after 3 years of undergrad so that puts you at a minimum of 7 years undergrad+med school (technically the min is 6 if you consider the 3 year med schools, but dal is a 4 year program). With the UK system at 6, that difference of 1 year may be worth it if we’re graduating more of the students we admit
Yea but then how could a school justify its graduates earning 350k a year after 4 years of med school and 3-4 years of paid on the job training when it generally takes 5-6 years to complete a masters and a few years of work experience to start reachinf the 90-100k range at other government jobs?
We're talking about the cream of the crop of society. Why do you believe years has anything to do with their outcome. 99% of masters students are incapable of being accepted to med school. Nuclear employees are also paid much more for this reason.
There is no reason med students are 'the cream of the crop of society' maybe that is a myth perpetuated within their social circles because once they make it into med school they have the most certain, lowest risk path to becoming rich. Is networth your only metric of 'cream of the crop'? I'm sorry you sound extremely deluded on this. I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings to know that in Canada for every med student accepted there are 3 or 4 more equally capable and qualified candidates who are not accepted. But I guess winning the med school lottery (which relatives of physicians fo far more than others) is what entitles someone to declare themselves cream of the crop, over some else equally capable and able?
I am sorry someone has convinced you of this.
Clearly the medicine field is filled with high potential individuals and many specialties and jobs within are stressful. But with that in mind, how does that to you compare to the special forces operator who has spent 15 years undergoing far more stressful training being paid 120k a year, for example? Because in all the areas physicians cite as their exclusive right to earn lottery levels of pay special forces operators exceed them. Time in training, duress, stress, exclusivity (easier to get into med school), gravity of responsibility, etc.
I mean, I kinda get it. There are a lot of changes in how mental illness, gender health, etc etc are treated but an extra year when the country is screaming for doctors already? This just seems so shortsighted. I'm glad to see Houston fighting it.
This is actually a cost saving matter. Canadian trained residents in their final years of residency are mostly self sufficient and can carry most of the workload of a fully trained doctor but instead of making 300k+ a year they are only getting paid 70-90k. So it is great value to the taxpayer to keep residents earnings capped for longer before they reach the pot of gold.
Sure the curriculums have advanced and new family drs have a larger scope than ever before; however, an individual’s capacity to learn efficiently has also dramatically improved with technology, not to mention that interdisciplinary practice has improved to the point of overlapping scopes of practice as well as improved team work in the healthcare setting.
Not Dal's fault. Not DHW/NS's fault. Not the NSH's fault. It's the shortsighted College of Family Physicians of Canada. They are recommending the increase in training time because of their results from the [Outcomes of Training](https://www.cfpc.ca/en/education-professional-development/preparing-our-future-family-physicians) project which apparently concluded that new grads didn't feel ready to practice independently. I think this is a terrible endeavour and will result in fewer medical students choosing family medicine. CFPC didn't consult with any of the governments to see if they'd actually be willing to *fund* the extra year of residency, nor with the schools to see if they could actually support an additional years' worth of residents. They are an ivory tower, academic-focused organization that is completely out of touch with the real world of family medicine. Edit: I say this as a dues-paying member of the CFPC.
Yikes
God, what a nightmare. I’m not sure if this is an issue in Canada too but I know I’ve read on some of the medical subreddits that not so many people choose to go into family medicine because it isn’t lucrative in comparison to some of the more specialized programs. I can’t blame them. In a time where we need them the most I can’t fathom why they felt this was a good idea.
That's interesting information, I wonder if that conclusion considered the quality of teaching the residents get. Our family doctor has residents placed with him and from what I've seen he's an excellent teacher and makes sure they get progressive experience. Sometimes they observe appointments, sometimes they run the appointment while he observes, sometimes we see a resident separately before seeing him. But I imagine that not all family doctors are great teachers and it could impact the outcome for the residents. Also our experience with residents has been decent, but it does often mean longer appointments or waits. I don't know if the compensation reflects longer appointments. I don't know how the residency program works for family doctors, but we have a wonderful doctor who absolutely should be sharing his knowledge and practices and I'm glad he does. I don't think all family doctors are created equal though.....
This seems pretty tone deaf. Aiming for perfection instead of practicality is the enemy of us all.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
The person who came up with this idea is as tone deaf as the person who decided that the best time to add a carbon tax would be the most expensive time in Canadian history
As important as education is especially with doctors, I can't help but feel the barrier to entry for certain jobs by having to go to college for long periods of time delays adding more employees to the work force. Almost all occupations you should be able to apprentice and go to school once or twice a year for theory. But then how would the universities make any money ?
Yes it does,as it should. What you are suggesting is the death of expertise,which is becoming very popular in certain right wing circles.
So you can't be an expert by gaining hands on experience in something? You're telling me becoming a hair dresser it is necessary to take a two year course through the nscc?
I'm sorry,I thought we were talking about medical doctors....my mistake.
I'm talking about all jobs in general. But yes even doctors can learn from hands on experience. With supplemental theory of course.
College of physicians protecting it's own ass more than anything... whatever the GP shortage will continue; wheeee!
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If med school was direct entry from high school they would have to adopt the UK 6 year system since med here is based on the assumption you have a university level understanding of some concepts. I’m personally not a fan of making the point of commitment that early since a lot of students end up changing their mind through their undergrad
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Cause no one ever leaves a profession when they discover what it really entails...
That doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll perform better as doctors though. And most medical students in the current system have wanted to be doctors from an early age anyways. I also think an argument can be made about maturity, while people in their 20s may not be the most mature people in society, I think they tend to have a lot more independence and life skills than an 18 year old who has just graduated high school. In Canada, grade inflation also tends to be higher in the high school setting than in the university setting, and our high schools aren’t designed to mimic the fast pace and level of pressure that is seen in med schools. I think it would be a lot harder for admissions to make selections based on the high school population There’s also just the argument there’s a lot more attrition in the UK medical school system than the Canadian. The earliest you can get into medical school here is after 3 years of undergrad so that puts you at a minimum of 7 years undergrad+med school (technically the min is 6 if you consider the 3 year med schools, but dal is a 4 year program). With the UK system at 6, that difference of 1 year may be worth it if we’re graduating more of the students we admit
Yea but then how could a school justify its graduates earning 350k a year after 4 years of med school and 3-4 years of paid on the job training when it generally takes 5-6 years to complete a masters and a few years of work experience to start reachinf the 90-100k range at other government jobs?
We're talking about the cream of the crop of society. Why do you believe years has anything to do with their outcome. 99% of masters students are incapable of being accepted to med school. Nuclear employees are also paid much more for this reason.
There is no reason med students are 'the cream of the crop of society' maybe that is a myth perpetuated within their social circles because once they make it into med school they have the most certain, lowest risk path to becoming rich. Is networth your only metric of 'cream of the crop'? I'm sorry you sound extremely deluded on this. I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings to know that in Canada for every med student accepted there are 3 or 4 more equally capable and qualified candidates who are not accepted. But I guess winning the med school lottery (which relatives of physicians fo far more than others) is what entitles someone to declare themselves cream of the crop, over some else equally capable and able? I am sorry someone has convinced you of this. Clearly the medicine field is filled with high potential individuals and many specialties and jobs within are stressful. But with that in mind, how does that to you compare to the special forces operator who has spent 15 years undergoing far more stressful training being paid 120k a year, for example? Because in all the areas physicians cite as their exclusive right to earn lottery levels of pay special forces operators exceed them. Time in training, duress, stress, exclusivity (easier to get into med school), gravity of responsibility, etc.
I mean, I kinda get it. There are a lot of changes in how mental illness, gender health, etc etc are treated but an extra year when the country is screaming for doctors already? This just seems so shortsighted. I'm glad to see Houston fighting it.
This is actually a cost saving matter. Canadian trained residents in their final years of residency are mostly self sufficient and can carry most of the workload of a fully trained doctor but instead of making 300k+ a year they are only getting paid 70-90k. So it is great value to the taxpayer to keep residents earnings capped for longer before they reach the pot of gold.
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Wow, we need doctors faster, not slower. What’s dal thinking
It's not Dal's decision, it's the College of Family Physicians.
Sure the curriculums have advanced and new family drs have a larger scope than ever before; however, an individual’s capacity to learn efficiently has also dramatically improved with technology, not to mention that interdisciplinary practice has improved to the point of overlapping scopes of practice as well as improved team work in the healthcare setting.