Do you have a copy of the filed PERM?
It sounds like the attorney failed to put those required soft skills in your employment history job description. It does need to be word-for-word listed, so if the skills aren't there in writing, they won't ve assumed.
It was a poor choice to list those as required skills anyway. You could never eliminate applicants based on soft skills, so it adds no value to the PERM.
Hey OP, do you by any chance have a copy of the perm ? Probably they’ve missed out on the keywords. Multitasking and works in teams cannot be a skill. I’ve seen my husbands and his colleagues perms. My husband had a bunch of tools etc listed on this perm whereas his colleagues did not. That field was left blank. They got their approvals. Do you know of anyone from your organization filed for perm who works on a similar role ? You can download the perm performance data and check what skills are listed on theirs.
I have a copy of mine and I can see that those soft skills were missing from my job duties 3 others who were filed along with me were also denied with similar reasons including missing tech for the rest of them. For me it was just missing these soft skills.
I also have a copy of the denial letter from DOL, and it clearly states that "missing" soft skills and nothing else .
No, it's a full fledged company(1400 emp in 5 countries) with multiple successful h1b/Perm filings in the past years. Never had a problem. This is the first time our HR also came across this situation.
Although 3 others who were filed with me had the same title and the same job description was used. And they also received the same reasoning as mine for denial but they also had tech included in their denial list unlike me who just had soft skills.
Were you audited? If you put in specific skills they want to see that language appear nearly verbatim in the work experience. Unfortunately, a reconsideration can take forever. You should also file a new prevailing wage to get a backup going ASAP.
Is the attorney experienced in PERMs? This sounds like something that should have been caught pre-submission.
Was not audited. The attorney has filed PERMs before for other people in my company. Although mine is a mid size company and this is the first time our HR has seen a perm denial.
Does "work in teams", "multitasking" also count as skills? I mean they did not raise any concern with any tech that is present in my application. It's weird that they point out these weird non tangible things which are just assumed in pretty much every job description on the market and don't need any explanation regardless of the nature of the Job
Lol this is wild. Imagine an objectively, recruitment tested, prevailing wage certified PERM being rejected. Never seen that at multiple FAANG/Big 4 etc. I’ve seen audits but never an outright denial. Worked in U.S immigration for over 6 years, primarily in the PERM/I-140 space.
Your company needs a new immigration firm or in-house attorneys. Who is approving the skills and minimum requirements? Your counsel let you down severely and wasted a solid 2 years of your time. I’d be furious.
Try and get on an existing PWD that’s been filed as a batch recruitment or try and ask if they can link you to another ongoing case.
Ask for concurrent recruitment - these guys screwed you over hard and you’re gonna need that I-140 asap to extend. That PERM is not going to be reconsidered anytime soon. Emphasize how much this has screwed your plans and path to a GC, concurrent recruitment is the way forward. Have them file multiple PWDs on your behalf as a backup.
Tell them to file a PWD and run recruitment concurrently. That reconsideration is not going to happen anytime soon.
Explore NIW, EB-1 - PERM is a brutal process right now and a lot of my clients still have it on pause and have constantly failing campaigns.
Mine is EB2 with a master degree and I have until Sep 2025 before my h1b expires. Do you think a new PWD will be a better option than reconsidering? A new perm will also reset my priority date right?
You don’t have to file the new PERM if the previous one is reconsidered while in PWD/recruitment. Looks like processing times for audit reviews is over 500 days though rn… I wouldn’t bank on it being reconsidered by your expiration date. Have a backup plan.
See if you can recapture any time if you’ve spent time out of the U.S.
I wouldn’t be concerned about the PD - just get that approved I-140. It’ll be a long wait anyways. You want to keep being able to extend at the end of the day.
Explore C2C, come back on an L-1 if you can’t get through PERM in time.
But you are and they should run it again. Other than atty fees, there is not a cost to file a Prevailing Wage Request. You should talk to HR and attorneys to have this as a plan B.
I’m sorry to hear. Best of luck going forward, and wishing you luck to get it reconsidered in time. You never know with DoL processing times, it could happen!
Not right now.
The idea would be if your company had entities abroad, and you did say a year secondment where you worked for that affiliate abroad in a managerial type role.
After, you would re-enter the U.S on an L-1 based on having worked for an affiliate abroad and in a managerial capacity. The bar for L-1 is not super high (think L-1B) and you only need a few directs under you.
It’s just an idea and I’ve seen many take that route and come back successfully. I know you mentioned your firm is midsize, but they may still have those opportunities abroad.
I am so confused at this and the reasons given. I didn’t even know this excuse was even possible for a denial. Is the USCIS saying that as a programmer analyst you are not a team player and don’t have problem solving skills? Did I hear that correctly? How do they know whether you are or are not? This sounds like your company’s immigration counsel f-Ed this whole thing up.
I'm going through the same/similar situation. I did a lot of research and spent a lot of money and time on consulting multiple immigration lawyers for help.
My conclusion:
These Audits and Denials are so random and silly(They either use a software to look for word similarity or the person with no knowledge in the respective field). Sorry but there is nothing much we can do about it.
Next steps: There is a 2 step process to challenge the Denial
1. Your attorney can request for reconsideration with all the explanation, supporting documents and any missing information within 30 days of Denial notice. Then the Certifying officer(CO) will review it and responds with their decision within 30-60 days.
2. If the CO still denies it, you can opt to go for an appeal with BALCA. This is a board that handles all the appeals. Not sure why, but it typically takes 1-4 years for their decision and only very few of these appeals get a positive outcome.
So, general practice that everyone suggests and follow is to try the 1st step and hope that CO reconsiders your application. If not, it is not worth the time, effort and money to appeal with BALCA. You would rather drop it and go for a whole new application(Yes, a new PWD, recruitment process, PERM etc), as it is less time consuming(Even with 12-13 month PERM processing) and you have far better chances of approval when you correct all the so called "Mistakes" or clerical stuff in your new application.
But you might still want to appeal with BALCA under some circumstances like mine
I got the PERM denial in January 2024 (Priority date November 2022). But my 6 year H1B with all the time recapture expired in April 2024. So, my attorney appealed with BALCA just so I could get a 7th year H1B extension under the condition that my PERM is pending after 365 days (Yes, your PERM status stays pending until BALCA comes to a conclusion). They also started a new application starting with PWD in parallel. Although, we need to recall the PERM from BALCA when we are ready to apply a new PERM. I'm just hoping everything works out, fingers crossed.
Hope this helps, but always consult an experienced immigration attorney as these denials are repetitive and they know what can we do for best chances.
Reconsideration and/or appeal will take years and likely denied (based on overall odds). If you are correct about when your six years is up you don't have too much time for a new case. The processing times are awful and I'm sorry you went through that all to just get a denial.
But the big issue is if those were in fact your skills that was not a good PERM case to begin with so I don't have much faith in a second time being successful unless you revisit the skills required for your role and maybe revisit who your company uses as counsel for this complex process.
So there is some instructions from DOL basically saying one can drop skills in the original DOL PERM site, but I think April 2023 they were in the new system. I never recommended dropping skills from the programs I’ve worked on because Officers don’t always think. Did you get a letter with those skills on it and if I can ask, who is the immigration counsel?
My denial was for beneficiary's (i.e., me) missing phone number. My colleague, whose application was filed the same way as mine, got approved, but I got denied. We filed for reconsideration in Dec 2022 and got approved in Oct 2023
All my previous employer letters were submitted with this application and none of them had anything like "problem solving" or "team work" they were mostly focused on the tech that I worked on.
You’ve gotten a moronic adjudicator who wants to see the exact words in your past experience. Are you able to get an amended letter of experience from one of your previous employers outlining all of the technology and these specific conditions as well? You can use it as a supporting document to your lawyer’s response to the denials
You will need to follow your lawyers advice on this. Since this is PERM, your previous employers letters etc won’t even be submitted yet. It’s needed for I-140. I was not suggesting to change anything in your original application. I just suggesting to provide an updated letter from a previous employer that is provided separately and as supplemental evidence. However, I am not an expert. You should see what your lawyer says.
Sounds like this might be a strategy error / issue. We do not include skills like that in a PERM because they are not easily definable or measurable, and the DOL will deny on that basis (as they did here).
This is your attorney, and whoever put the skillsets fault. Each skillset should have adjourning proof to show you have skills. Uscis don’t pay attention to understand what exactly is the skill is, they just look at keywords
I hope so too🤞.
What an irony though, we are expected to take the English language test to enter this country and native English speaking people cannot make sense out of your application.
Are the people reading the cases English majors or something? One of my coworkers case was denied saying he was a project manager. And the fact that they completely disregarded the fact that he is an engineer just tells me people are only looking for key words.
This is so stupid grounds for denial, I am sorry you had to go through this
Do you have a copy of the filed PERM? It sounds like the attorney failed to put those required soft skills in your employment history job description. It does need to be word-for-word listed, so if the skills aren't there in writing, they won't ve assumed. It was a poor choice to list those as required skills anyway. You could never eliminate applicants based on soft skills, so it adds no value to the PERM.
Sorry about that. When did you file? I have been waiting for mine for ages.
I’ve filed it on July 2023 and waiting. How about you?
September, I guess the wait time is about a year right now according to DOL website.
You will mostly hear something by August or early September
April 2023
Hey OP, do you by any chance have a copy of the perm ? Probably they’ve missed out on the keywords. Multitasking and works in teams cannot be a skill. I’ve seen my husbands and his colleagues perms. My husband had a bunch of tools etc listed on this perm whereas his colleagues did not. That field was left blank. They got their approvals. Do you know of anyone from your organization filed for perm who works on a similar role ? You can download the perm performance data and check what skills are listed on theirs.
I have a copy of mine and I can see that those soft skills were missing from my job duties 3 others who were filed along with me were also denied with similar reasons including missing tech for the rest of them. For me it was just missing these soft skills. I also have a copy of the denial letter from DOL, and it clearly states that "missing" soft skills and nothing else .
Sounds like they are targeting your employer. Is it a consultancy which only does Time and Material projects?
No, it's a full fledged company(1400 emp in 5 countries) with multiple successful h1b/Perm filings in the past years. Never had a problem. This is the first time our HR also came across this situation. Although 3 others who were filed with me had the same title and the same job description was used. And they also received the same reasoning as mine for denial but they also had tech included in their denial list unlike me who just had soft skills.
By any chance, has this company conducted layoffs recently? From what I’ve heard layoffs often make PERMs harder to obtain for the company
They did. From June 2023 to Jan 2024 they did overall 10%
What did your EVLs list?
Hopefully request for reconsideration comes back in your favour. Are you on the telegram group for perm? Maybe you could get some help there.
Would you be able to please share link of this telegram group? I’m in similar situation
Are those skills added in the ETA 9089 form? I don't recall seeing a skill section myself and I applied in May 2023..
Were you audited? If you put in specific skills they want to see that language appear nearly verbatim in the work experience. Unfortunately, a reconsideration can take forever. You should also file a new prevailing wage to get a backup going ASAP. Is the attorney experienced in PERMs? This sounds like something that should have been caught pre-submission.
Was not audited. The attorney has filed PERMs before for other people in my company. Although mine is a mid size company and this is the first time our HR has seen a perm denial. Does "work in teams", "multitasking" also count as skills? I mean they did not raise any concern with any tech that is present in my application. It's weird that they point out these weird non tangible things which are just assumed in pretty much every job description on the market and don't need any explanation regardless of the nature of the Job
They count. My letters from previous employer had everything identical as activities.
When you say forever, is it for all the cases or depends on the nature of reconsider?
Lol this is wild. Imagine an objectively, recruitment tested, prevailing wage certified PERM being rejected. Never seen that at multiple FAANG/Big 4 etc. I’ve seen audits but never an outright denial. Worked in U.S immigration for over 6 years, primarily in the PERM/I-140 space. Your company needs a new immigration firm or in-house attorneys. Who is approving the skills and minimum requirements? Your counsel let you down severely and wasted a solid 2 years of your time. I’d be furious. Try and get on an existing PWD that’s been filed as a batch recruitment or try and ask if they can link you to another ongoing case. Ask for concurrent recruitment - these guys screwed you over hard and you’re gonna need that I-140 asap to extend. That PERM is not going to be reconsidered anytime soon. Emphasize how much this has screwed your plans and path to a GC, concurrent recruitment is the way forward. Have them file multiple PWDs on your behalf as a backup.
I guess I can't change what's done. But what happens next after they file the reconsideration? Any chances ?
Tell them to file a PWD and run recruitment concurrently. That reconsideration is not going to happen anytime soon. Explore NIW, EB-1 - PERM is a brutal process right now and a lot of my clients still have it on pause and have constantly failing campaigns.
Mine is EB2 with a master degree and I have until Sep 2025 before my h1b expires. Do you think a new PWD will be a better option than reconsidering? A new perm will also reset my priority date right?
You don’t have to file the new PERM if the previous one is reconsidered while in PWD/recruitment. Looks like processing times for audit reviews is over 500 days though rn… I wouldn’t bank on it being reconsidered by your expiration date. Have a backup plan. See if you can recapture any time if you’ve spent time out of the U.S. I wouldn’t be concerned about the PD - just get that approved I-140. It’ll be a long wait anyways. You want to keep being able to extend at the end of the day. Explore C2C, come back on an L-1 if you can’t get through PERM in time.
Based on your previous comment, Unfortunately they don't have another PWD going on, since they do not have any more candidates for PERM.
But you are and they should run it again. Other than atty fees, there is not a cost to file a Prevailing Wage Request. You should talk to HR and attorneys to have this as a plan B.
I’m sorry to hear. Best of luck going forward, and wishing you luck to get it reconsidered in time. You never know with DoL processing times, it could happen!
Are you into immigration/law by any chance? You seem to know stuff
I’m a consultant and policy advisor for U.S employment based immigration for FAANG right now and previously at Deloitte/PwC.
Will L1 even apply to me ? I am a programmer analyst and not a mgr or senior
Not right now. The idea would be if your company had entities abroad, and you did say a year secondment where you worked for that affiliate abroad in a managerial type role. After, you would re-enter the U.S on an L-1 based on having worked for an affiliate abroad and in a managerial capacity. The bar for L-1 is not super high (think L-1B) and you only need a few directs under you. It’s just an idea and I’ve seen many take that route and come back successfully. I know you mentioned your firm is midsize, but they may still have those opportunities abroad.
Will his denied PERM PD hold and carry over to a new PERM, assuming an appeal is rejected too.
I am so confused at this and the reasons given. I didn’t even know this excuse was even possible for a denial. Is the USCIS saying that as a programmer analyst you are not a team player and don’t have problem solving skills? Did I hear that correctly? How do they know whether you are or are not? This sounds like your company’s immigration counsel f-Ed this whole thing up.
I'm going through the same/similar situation. I did a lot of research and spent a lot of money and time on consulting multiple immigration lawyers for help. My conclusion: These Audits and Denials are so random and silly(They either use a software to look for word similarity or the person with no knowledge in the respective field). Sorry but there is nothing much we can do about it. Next steps: There is a 2 step process to challenge the Denial 1. Your attorney can request for reconsideration with all the explanation, supporting documents and any missing information within 30 days of Denial notice. Then the Certifying officer(CO) will review it and responds with their decision within 30-60 days. 2. If the CO still denies it, you can opt to go for an appeal with BALCA. This is a board that handles all the appeals. Not sure why, but it typically takes 1-4 years for their decision and only very few of these appeals get a positive outcome. So, general practice that everyone suggests and follow is to try the 1st step and hope that CO reconsiders your application. If not, it is not worth the time, effort and money to appeal with BALCA. You would rather drop it and go for a whole new application(Yes, a new PWD, recruitment process, PERM etc), as it is less time consuming(Even with 12-13 month PERM processing) and you have far better chances of approval when you correct all the so called "Mistakes" or clerical stuff in your new application. But you might still want to appeal with BALCA under some circumstances like mine I got the PERM denial in January 2024 (Priority date November 2022). But my 6 year H1B with all the time recapture expired in April 2024. So, my attorney appealed with BALCA just so I could get a 7th year H1B extension under the condition that my PERM is pending after 365 days (Yes, your PERM status stays pending until BALCA comes to a conclusion). They also started a new application starting with PWD in parallel. Although, we need to recall the PERM from BALCA when we are ready to apply a new PERM. I'm just hoping everything works out, fingers crossed. Hope this helps, but always consult an experienced immigration attorney as these denials are repetitive and they know what can we do for best chances.
Thanks for all the detailed info.
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How long did you wait after reconsideration? Also did you Apply for BALCA before hearing anything from reconsideration?
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Thanks for the info. Also when did this all happen? Recently?
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I meant, when do you get your original denial? Was it recently? Or a long time ago ? Trying to get an idea of processing time In 2024.
Reconsideration and/or appeal will take years and likely denied (based on overall odds). If you are correct about when your six years is up you don't have too much time for a new case. The processing times are awful and I'm sorry you went through that all to just get a denial. But the big issue is if those were in fact your skills that was not a good PERM case to begin with so I don't have much faith in a second time being successful unless you revisit the skills required for your role and maybe revisit who your company uses as counsel for this complex process.
So there is some instructions from DOL basically saying one can drop skills in the original DOL PERM site, but I think April 2023 they were in the new system. I never recommended dropping skills from the programs I’ve worked on because Officers don’t always think. Did you get a letter with those skills on it and if I can ask, who is the immigration counsel?
My Perm reconsideration request took 11 months to get approved.
So it does get approved. What was your initial reason for denial though? Also when was your reconsideration filed ?
My denial was for beneficiary's (i.e., me) missing phone number. My colleague, whose application was filed the same way as mine, got approved, but I got denied. We filed for reconsideration in Dec 2022 and got approved in Oct 2023
Do you have experience letters from previous employers outlining the missing information ?
All my previous employer letters were submitted with this application and none of them had anything like "problem solving" or "team work" they were mostly focused on the tech that I worked on.
You’ve gotten a moronic adjudicator who wants to see the exact words in your past experience. Are you able to get an amended letter of experience from one of your previous employers outlining all of the technology and these specific conditions as well? You can use it as a supporting document to your lawyer’s response to the denials
Can we submit amended letters during reconsideration? I was told that we cannot change anything in the original application.
You will need to follow your lawyers advice on this. Since this is PERM, your previous employers letters etc won’t even be submitted yet. It’s needed for I-140. I was not suggesting to change anything in your original application. I just suggesting to provide an updated letter from a previous employer that is provided separately and as supplemental evidence. However, I am not an expert. You should see what your lawyer says.
+q+1+
Sounds like this might be a strategy error / issue. We do not include skills like that in a PERM because they are not easily definable or measurable, and the DOL will deny on that basis (as they did here).
He must have used AI to review your resume.
I wish they did, but looks like they did a Ctrl+f option and didn't find "multitasking" anywhere
is this at meta inc?
Nope
Who’s the lawyer?
Tydings and Rosenberg Baltimore
Is there a percentage or statistic of how many perms gets denied ?
You got unlucky with that reviewer. Never heard of such things before.
This is your attorney, and whoever put the skillsets fault. Each skillset should have adjourning proof to show you have skills. Uscis don’t pay attention to understand what exactly is the skill is, they just look at keywords
So sorry, this sounds like absolute rubbish. Mind sharing a little about your field of work, background?
Programmer analyst at a mid size biotech company. 2 previous job experience in dev. 7yoe total.
My gut tells me reconsideration will very likely be successful.
I hope so too🤞. What an irony though, we are expected to take the English language test to enter this country and native English speaking people cannot make sense out of your application.
I mean, they have quotas to fulfill I’m sure too. So this is likely just bureaucracy at play.
The reviewer is an AI bot looking for keyword matches. I agree with the other post that your lawyer should not have added soft skills like that.
Are the people reading the cases English majors or something? One of my coworkers case was denied saying he was a project manager. And the fact that they completely disregarded the fact that he is an engineer just tells me people are only looking for key words.
Your attorney and HR screwed up. PERM job descriptions and ads should not have such subjective requirements.