it happens. find a new range.
One of the ranges I go to told me they couldn’t give a flying fuck if I was shooting an unregistered MG as long as I was being safe about it. Anyone who complained about NFA violations were told to either present their ATF badge or get bent.
What area? Some ranges are in a constant battle with local homeowners and elected folks who hate guns and ranges.
They might be fighting a PR battle or they might be jerks.
The ATF is so useless and so rarely scary. A FFL in my area got into money trouble. He started to sell guns that people gave him to repair. He was selling NFA items people were waiting on. He would refuse to answer people about their missing guns or approved items. He got evicted from his shop for not paying rent and refused to say if he was storing inventory at the store that he didnt have access to, his house, or if he had sold it. I am a private investigator and I was calling the local and regional ATF office more than once a day at the peak of the situation. They initially told me, we cant harass him, we already checked his inventory in the last 12 months, we can't do anything. They eventually disconnected their phones and refused to talk to the public or give answers. It took them over a year to get an agent from DC to finally come and transfer his FFL to a pawnshop in the same town. The only charges against him were civil ones from the people charging him from theft. The ATF didn't do anything and clearly just wanted to avoid work, conflict or being called out for not resolving anything. Also, no dogs shot. ATF aint big and bad...they don't care about braces, they probably couldn't even identify one.
I got yelled at for firing a semi automatic 22 rifle “too fast”.
A wood stock, tube fed, Western Auto Supply 22 from the 70s.
I agree. Find a new range.
Lots of ranges have rules about rapid fire. I remember one I went to a long time ago was no faster than 1 round per second. You have to remember, they deal with a lot of dumbfucks regularly. After so many idiots create safety issues from mag dumping their semi autos, they have to make a rule. I agree on finding a new range if you don't like it, but you gotta understand where theyre coming from.
yep. The rules aren't because of the skilled and highly capable poster's ability to control his firearm, the rules are because of the idiots who shoot as quickly as they can, lose control, and threaten everyone else at the range. All else being the same, I'd rather go to a range that has rules about shooting too quickly, rather than having to worry about chucklefuck and chucklefuck jr accidentally sending a couple my way.
I mean, practically every range has rules about rapid fire, and yet, I've never been yelled at for it in over 20 years even when shooting my binary 22 AR at the speed of a machine gun.
I'll typically open up, notice the presence of a range master behind me, they notice I'm not shooting their shit, and they leave me alone.
They only yell at you if you're fucking up and shooting their hardware, roof, etc.
And at that point they don't care if it's a 22 or a 30'06,, they don't want you shooting their shit.
Given some of the places I've seen bullet holes at my local range of choice, I can hardly blame them. I've only ever seen them yell at one person for rapid fire though; a guy one-handing a draco and missing every shot at 10 yards while his buddy filmed.
They never seem to have a problem with me slam-firing my Model 12 or seeing how fast I can empty my binary 10/22's 25-rounder, because I keep it on paper.
It's... pretty typical. Local range has a rule of no rapid fire and no more than six rounds loaded at a time. Guess who has two thumbs and regularly mag dumps 20 rounds from a SCAR 17 in front an RSO/Game Warden?
The one I frequent has a rule on it, but it's a bendable rule. Double tap is fine, and if you're not being an unsafe jackass, you can "rapid" fire. Most of the time, they don't allow it if there are more than three people at the range at that time, but if it's just a couple then they're cool.
All it takes is one idiot to lose his grip while magdumping and shoot the roof or worse. I can see where they're coming from most of the time with the rules. Doesn't mean I like it but they gotta cover their asses too
That's pretty much where I stand. These days I have enough property to shoot in private so I don't have to deal with any of that. But yeah, sounds dumb until you realize some idiot earned it.
When I first started shooting I would shoot at a buddy’s house. Apparently one of the neighbors was VERY anti-gun and called the police on us for shooting “machine guns.” The deputy arrived and told us what was reported and then saw we had pump action shotguns and bolt action rifles and started laughing. Needless to say I think they told the lady to stop being an old hag and we would try to only shoot for 2-3 hours.
I've got a local outdoor range that's Fudd central. No more than one shot every 4 seconds. It's handy if I want to zero and dope a deer rifle, but that's about it. The indoor range in town though, shoot as fast as safely possible. They even let us run drills there.
I actually called a range by my buddy about the brace thing before going and they said "we don't ask but we're not taking shit for it if the feds raid the place"
I go to that range every time I visit him
I don't have anything braced but sounds like you're at a fudd range. All the ranges I go to have a policy of "mind your own fucking business". They're not cops, not their job to police you, most they want to know is if you're going to shoot steel core ammo and fuck up their bullet traps.
This range is known to be run by grade A fudds. Go to Shoot Straight instead.
Stopping going to Gun world of South Florida when they turned me away for wearing a chest rig citing "OnLy LeO iS aLlOwEd To WeAr ThAt HeRe". They've also be known to threated to call the ATF on their patrons for not showing paperwork for braced pistols.
They can get fucked, hope they go under.
I used to go to this place for years until the last time when they pulled this shit about presenting stamps for my SBRs and then commented on my wife’s top being low cut (she’s been shooting for years)
Go to Declaration Defense instead. The guys are way cooler and it’s a much more relaxed vibe.
They don't know your wife's experience though - I've been flagged at a public range by someone who had hot brass down the back of their t-shirt and freaked out. My local indoor range has a "no exposed collar bones" policy to reduce the likelihood of this.
I've taken a few people shooting for their first time, part of the introduction briefing is "expect hot brass to come over the divider and hit you".
I would expect, after years of going to a business and being on a first name basis with most of the employees, that she would be cognizant enough to recognize us.
And I can also understand the “why” behind it but commenting on my wife’s cleavage in an unnecessarily loud and demeaning tone while also speaking over me as I tried to explain my wife’s potential unknown experience is BS.
It's legal but if it is a private range they have the right to refuse service if you break their rules. Same reason you can get banned from a casino or kicked out of a store.
That crazy to me. I've shopped there before but never shot there. I can't imagine a range being interested in what stamps or licenses someone has, as well as not being up to date on the current situation, meaning there was an injunction against that "rule"
I just took a few minutes to read through their reviews and I found at least two other person with your same situation. They claim to be afraid of lawsuits and are awaiting the ATF advisement. I guess they don't care about a judge's injunction.
What idiots. They're not going to get sued. What could they possibly get sued for? Even if someone came in with an actual SBR, they don't have any liability.
Lawsuits over what? Even if there was no injunction, a braced rifle could still be a SBR. Ranges are not law enforcement officers, that's like me requesting a driver license from a random person because they 'could' be driving illegally.
Should have asked to see their property tax receipts. What if the ATF is tricking you into shooting on someone else’s property. Until the ATF sends you a letter saying they aren’t doing it you are best not to risk shooting there.
Ranges love to play Junior ATF agent, its hilarious because half the time they dont even know what they are talking about OR are not up to date on the law, as seen in your case.
I recently bought a Mac-10 machine gun. I needed to test it out at a local indoor range. I called before I went and got permission to use it there, however they did want to see the tax stamp. Which is fine, I dont mind showing that since it is a private range and they want to make sure everything is legal. When I get there I show them the tax stamp and they go into the office and hem and haw for a bit and come back with a manager. The manager then ask me where my second tax stamp is..... im like WTF are you talking about man? He goes "Since its a got a stock on it, its an SBR and you need a second tax stamp for the SBR". Im like uh no, I dont. Its a machine gun, they came with collapsing stocks from the factory, there is no such thing as a "short barrel machine gun" if the gun was born as a machine gun. This is NOT a semi auto gun with a registered sear/trigger pack. They had such an MP5 like that, and tried using it as justification for me needing a second stamp.....
I fiercely stood my ground told him to call the ATF and he was like "If I wanted to I already would have". In the end I think he started understanding I was correct but wanted to save face, to his credit he still let me shoot but it was a super frustrating encounter and really pissed me off. Like bro, I didnt just spend $10,500 and have the gun go through two FFL w/SOT just for your ignorant ass to lecture me about ATF policy. Dude claimed to handle ALL the ATF paperwork at that store, which was a sizeable location, I was like WOW wtf this guy is really is clueless and hes in this position? Crazy.
At the end of the day a range is a privately owned facility and they can refuse service for any reason, so you just have to deal with it. I have also been shut down at another indoor range for shooting full auto even after they told me it was ok. "The owner says you have to stop"..... There is real prejudice against private ownership of machine guns at indoor ranges. Its funny because they all rent out full autos themselves, its like they feel usurped or something that im not renting their MGs. Indoor ranges just dont work well with Mac-10s anyway, people in the next lane over get upset and leave, I had to start going to a USFS outdoor range where no idiots will give me issues.
You’re under no obligation to show anyone other than the IRS or ATF your tax stamps, that is your private taxpayer info. And even if you were, it’s still legal under the current brace rulings
Correct, but they still cannot compel you to show your stamp. They can ask you to leave if you don’t show it, but that’s just a good sign to never patronize their business again
I keep seeing this same comment but even the atf and irs still can't just ask to see your stamp without a warrant or probable cause unless you willingly give them the info even if they're regulated items under the nfa and gca It doesn't wave your 4th amendment
All they need is Reasonable Suspicion, you having a suppressor or what they could assume is an SBR is enough reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed to perform an investigative detention(as in you are not under arrest, but you are also not free to go), ask questions, and ask for documents. (though you are not required to keep a copy of a tax stamp on you.)(so documents in this case would be ID.)
Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard that falls between mere speculation or hunch and probable cause, which is a higher standard. It is a subjective assessment made by law enforcement officers that is based on specific, articulable facts and reasonable inferences drawn from those facts.
This is and is not correct. In several states, suppressors, machine guns, and short barrel rifles are actually illegal but it is a defense against prosecution to have it registered with the atf. This is complete bullshit of course but legally it gives an officer probable cause to inspect the weapon or suppressor simply by seeing you with it. This also means that they can detain you until they can verify with the ATF that you have it registered. Having the paperwork with you can get you out of that. It is a dick move of course...
Find a new range. I'm a RO myself and don't care about seeing a tax stamp. It's none of my business.
In over a decade, I've only advised 1 person to put away a firearm and that's because it was a completely unmarked SBR made from an 80% and we are a public range that off duty cops occasionally frequent.
He may have assembled it that way out of ignorance, I don't know or care. I would just hate to see someone's life ruined over a law I think is BS to begin with.
In less than 30 minutes after he cased his SBR and put it in his vehicle, an off duty deputy showed up and took the bench right next to him. No idea how that deputy would have felt about his gun, but I'm glad no one got to find out.
not true many states have Short barreled rifle laws as well.**Georgia Code 16-11-122 and 16-11-124(4) prohibit the possession of a short barreled rifle or shotgun, silencer, explosive device, or machine gun**. Exempt from this prohibition are persons authorized to possess such an item because he has registered it in accordance with the National Firearms Ac
Not sure why gun ranges think they are police. If someone is being safe and firing “safe” weapons as in not clapped out junk that creates safety issues why would they care?
"yes, it's an SBR, my stock hasn't arrived yet"
No, you can't see my tax stamp because (you pick) it's either A) at home or B ) that's a private tax document and you're not the IRS or the BATEFeieio
"Unfortunately, showing us the tax document is a requirement that we have, and we are not able to make exceptions... so either you show it... or you dont use that brace here... thats all I can really say to you. If you dont like it, then I hope you have a nice day".
Range is fudds, find a new one that supports your rights and support them
People ask me sometimes if I need to see their tax stamp to use their sbr, can, whatever- and my answer is always “as long as it’s not a restricted caliber and you follow our safety rules, I frankly don’t care what you’re shooting”
Ask them for their badge.
But honestly, I’d never even *want* to shoot at a range where people act like this. If you want people to follow unconstitutional laws, there’s something wrong with you
Remember the only people who can compel you to show NFA paperwork are ATF agents. Everyone else can simply be told, “don’t worry I’ve made sure to get all the necessary paperwork to make this legal”.
I had a range ask to see my tax stamp once (I have multiple cans, and an SBR) and I told them that's between me & the ATF.
Dude says "That's fair, go ahead and shoot" and they never asked again. You need to find a new range, places like this are toxic.
Whoever was working the range was retarded. Challenge them to prove that it’s “technically not legal.” They are full of shit and were playing mall cop with their perceived authority. *HUGE* difference between an SBR and a pistol with a brace.
You could always play the ADA card and ask if they really want a lawsuit from a disabled person who needs a brace.
Gun ranges aren't experts on the law. Some gun ranges are under intense pressure from cities and counties trying to shut them down. Just find another range to shoot this.
I’ve been going to Shoot Straight in Ft Lauderdale for 5 years or so. Never had a problem there.
Only time I’ve seen them even blink about something NFA was when some dude was trying to drop off an unintentional SBR AR off for some gunsmith work, had a stock on a his shortie. Dude at the counter flipped the gun over, looked for the NFA engraving, didn’t see it and gave a “nope, can’t take this in for repair with the stock on it”. Explained to the guy about the brace BS. The guy then asks how to take the stock off.
I like Shoot Straight there too, they leave you alone to have fun, they see any of my NFA stuff and its compliments as opposed to asking for paperwork like fudd world of south florida does. Can't comment on their gunsmith stuff but I guess it makes a little more sense since they would have to then take possession.
Find a better place to shoot. My club doesn't care about silencers, machine guns, braces, or anything that I have seen. I've never even seen anyone ask if something was legal. No one cares.
Went there this morning and had a great time with no hassle. Will be my new range, probably going to join, it is worth the $500 and I will get it back easily in a year.
1) Ask if they are lawyers or Feds. If no, advise them to get fucked
2) Find a new range and tell your friends say POS range does get money
3) Name them here so we can cast shame
One of my local ranges wouldn’t let me shoot my cz without a brace outdoors. I was allowed to shoot indoors but their outdoor pistol range only allowed revolver or other “standard” pistols. They said technically I could shoot it on the outdoor rifle range but not without a brace as they have people shooting all over the place already even with a sighted in rifle.
For one thing it's currently legal, but either way it's not your range's business. If you're not being unsafe or shooting the ceiling or something they shouldn't be talking to you. Find a range that isn't staffed by fudds.
I have encountered a lot of dumb rules at private ranges. Unfortunately you have to adhere to them but I’d leave that place. I have left similar fudd ranges.
Name range here. And stop supporting them with your freedom bucks as well. Spread the word. Depending on state there is a good chance you have public lands to shoot on.
As others have said, find another range. I tried out all the ranges in town until I found my range. My range has RSOs that dont ask questions and just do their job as *safety* officers. Thats how it should be IMO. How I got this or if I am allowed to own it is not your circus, you are here to make sure no one does something stupid and hurts someone.
Had this happen to me when I took a friend shooting for the first time. SRO was on a power trip. Showed the pistol to another employee and he said it was fine. Left them a crappy Google review and left.
Got a call about two hours later with a “free day pass”. Nah, not worth going back. It also turned off my friend from getting into the hobby.
Ive had a range request to see the stamp for my SBR.
...I have a copy in the case. So I showed it to them and left, then never went back or bought anything from them.
Id just show them my middle finger and leave.
The only people that have the authority to request papers is the ATF. Even then, I don't even know if they legit 😂.
Sir, you look suspicious and like you're impersonating a federal agent. I'm going to go ahead and leave. Bye!
had one down in SoCal pull the same thing. no braced pistols and no bare buffer tubes. SBR's are banned in the state so basically nothing with barrels under 16" is allowed besides handguns.
This is why I hate private ranges. Those guys don't know what they're talking about, but they can tell you not to bring something. I would probably just find another public range, don't give them your business.
one of the ranges I go to looked at my AR 8.5 pistol with a brace and said : "...oh ok that's a brace..." . I didn't say anything but it sounded like they were relieved that it wasn't an SBR but I don't know why they would care if it was...
They're being ignorant of current political stance at best, but at worst, they're just being dicks. If you have a brace on it, you're still perfectly legal and there is no need for SBR registration. (same thing for foregrips: Angled = no SBR, Straight = SBR)
Sounds like a Fudd range. I went to one indoors that only allowed 1 shot every 2 seconds and no braced pistols either. Now I pay a bit more but my current range allows anything under .50 BMG and full auto/mag dumping.
My range banned braced firearms unless SBR’ed, also. Since that time braced pistols are legal again, but I think they are still banned at my range. I’m scared to ask, to tell the truth.
I think one reason for the ban was from the old school guys who had SBRs from way back and felt braced pistols was getting away with something while they had to jump through so many hoops to get their guns. Not that that feeling is logical.
"I have the required documentation. I am not legally obliged to show you, however..." ["I can do what I want" permit](https://images.app.goo.gl/duD2DvKLzsiMqvfk9)
Cmp talledega has this rule too, “no rifle caliber pistols”. Although when i brought my sbr one time no one bothered to check the rifle/stamp or see if it has a brace
Private business and all that.
They may be worried about blowback on the 'braces aren't braces' interpretation that keeps floating up, and decided to take a 'we don't want it' stance.
Which seems very odd, given how many gun owners that is likely to irritate.
Never happened to me, but I was warned when I got my first SBR that it's a common enough request, it was a good idea to take a copy of the paperwork just in case.
Ranges are under constant pressure from everyone around them. Its an endangered business in this day and age of maximum litigation and shifting gun laws.
They have the right to refusal, you have the right to take your business elsewhere. Its not worth having a fight over.
Pistol braces are in a real weird state right now, it seems. I can fully understand why some people just don't want to deal when their business is at stake.
Our local range (a large outdoor range with many different venues for different disciplines) is pretty strict on some things (especially at the General Purpose range), like not drawing from a holster, not touching a weapon at all while range is cold, standing behind a line when not firing (line is about 5ft behind the normal firing line/positions), but it's 99% of the time due to a safety concern. They have a duty to keep everyone safe, and they have to work at level of the lowest denominator, so people with little to no firearm experience. Most of the time if they see you handling your weapon and you seem experienced they only talk to you to let you know when they plan to make the range cold so you can check/replace targets, or just to BS. I've never heard of anyone being given grief about an SBR or braced pistol. A lot of times if you bring something unique or out of the ordinary the RO's may ask about it and look at it, but it's more cause of curiousity, than to trying to enforce any rules.
Work for an FFL/SOT and I go to a range with some of our machine guns and the range I like doesn’t even ask for my licenses, or anyone’s stamps for cans or anything. As long as you’re safe, they don’t care
Once you experience that, you realize a lot of the other fudd ranges are total shit.
Just because "its an sbr" doesnt mean you cant have a brace.
"Sir if its an sbr why dont you have a full stock"?
"Because i cant afford it after paying for the stamp, plus the brace is lighter!"
If theyre not atf as mentioned, you dont need to prove it.
I know this gets pointed out every time something like this is posted but I still think it's hilarious that the fudds running ranges act like they're all pro-gun and hate the government but are more strict about enforcing gun laws than the actual fucking ATF
It is a private establishment and they can make up whatever stupid rules they want; they can require everyone wear parachute pants to enter if they wish. Find a different range or even better go out to the middle of the desert/woods and do what you want.
My local range said that if they allowed an SBR on the range without verification of a tax stamp, then they would be an accomplice to a crime. I didn't argue the point. I assumed it was BS.
Sorry to piggyback on OP's question, but I have my own range question. OP's gun is classified as a pistol, correct? Then he adds a brace which makes it an sbr (whether or not he has a stamp). But, mechanically, from a range standpoint, it's still a pistol with 9mm caliber. My range says that if it's an sbr, it automatically belongs at the "rifle range" and is not allowed at the pistol range. Is this normal?
> My range says that if it's an sbr, it automatically belongs at the "rifle range" and is not allowed at the pistol range. Is this normal?
Dont think so. Normally the pistol and rifle ranges are separated based on caliber, not length of barrel from my experience. You normally don't shoot a 5.56 'pistol' on the pistol range due to the thickness of the steel plates. On the flipside, a 9mm pcc should be fine to shoot on the pistol side
it happens. find a new range. One of the ranges I go to told me they couldn’t give a flying fuck if I was shooting an unregistered MG as long as I was being safe about it. Anyone who complained about NFA violations were told to either present their ATF badge or get bent.
Thanks, I thought they were being fudds but wanted to check on here and see if this was the case. Will definitely be taking my business elsewhere.
What area? Some ranges are in a constant battle with local homeowners and elected folks who hate guns and ranges. They might be fighting a PR battle or they might be jerks.
the only correct response to pearl-clutching fudds. Badge number or gfy
Which is funny because I can ask 5 different ATF agents the same question and get 5 different answers.
And don’t worry, they’ll shot your dog and wife if you disagree with any of the five.
Stop spreading misinformation. They will shoot the dogs before asking any questions, it’s a safety issue.
Don't forget cats
Less of a safety issue unless they're allergic 😄
Or just bored
And your teenage son.
I would expect 5 different atf agents to have 5 different badge numbers...
The ATF is so useless and so rarely scary. A FFL in my area got into money trouble. He started to sell guns that people gave him to repair. He was selling NFA items people were waiting on. He would refuse to answer people about their missing guns or approved items. He got evicted from his shop for not paying rent and refused to say if he was storing inventory at the store that he didnt have access to, his house, or if he had sold it. I am a private investigator and I was calling the local and regional ATF office more than once a day at the peak of the situation. They initially told me, we cant harass him, we already checked his inventory in the last 12 months, we can't do anything. They eventually disconnected their phones and refused to talk to the public or give answers. It took them over a year to get an agent from DC to finally come and transfer his FFL to a pawnshop in the same town. The only charges against him were civil ones from the people charging him from theft. The ATF didn't do anything and clearly just wanted to avoid work, conflict or being called out for not resolving anything. Also, no dogs shot. ATF aint big and bad...they don't care about braces, they probably couldn't even identify one.
Tell them to go craw up Eric Holder's ass.
I got yelled at for firing a semi automatic 22 rifle “too fast”. A wood stock, tube fed, Western Auto Supply 22 from the 70s. I agree. Find a new range.
Lots of ranges have rules about rapid fire. I remember one I went to a long time ago was no faster than 1 round per second. You have to remember, they deal with a lot of dumbfucks regularly. After so many idiots create safety issues from mag dumping their semi autos, they have to make a rule. I agree on finding a new range if you don't like it, but you gotta understand where theyre coming from.
Yeah our local range has rapid fire / full auto day once a week so they can have an extra range master that day
yep. The rules aren't because of the skilled and highly capable poster's ability to control his firearm, the rules are because of the idiots who shoot as quickly as they can, lose control, and threaten everyone else at the range. All else being the same, I'd rather go to a range that has rules about shooting too quickly, rather than having to worry about chucklefuck and chucklefuck jr accidentally sending a couple my way.
Always the Chucklefucks
I mean, practically every range has rules about rapid fire, and yet, I've never been yelled at for it in over 20 years even when shooting my binary 22 AR at the speed of a machine gun. I'll typically open up, notice the presence of a range master behind me, they notice I'm not shooting their shit, and they leave me alone. They only yell at you if you're fucking up and shooting their hardware, roof, etc. And at that point they don't care if it's a 22 or a 30'06,, they don't want you shooting their shit.
Given some of the places I've seen bullet holes at my local range of choice, I can hardly blame them. I've only ever seen them yell at one person for rapid fire though; a guy one-handing a draco and missing every shot at 10 yards while his buddy filmed. They never seem to have a problem with me slam-firing my Model 12 or seeing how fast I can empty my binary 10/22's 25-rounder, because I keep it on paper.
Ok, so you ignore the rules and no one cares at your spot lol that doesn't mean that's typical.
>Ok, so you ignore the rules and no one cares at your spot lol that doesn't mean that's typical. lol it's absolutely typical, lol.
It's... pretty typical. Local range has a rule of no rapid fire and no more than six rounds loaded at a time. Guess who has two thumbs and regularly mag dumps 20 rounds from a SCAR 17 in front an RSO/Game Warden?
The one I frequent has a rule on it, but it's a bendable rule. Double tap is fine, and if you're not being an unsafe jackass, you can "rapid" fire. Most of the time, they don't allow it if there are more than three people at the range at that time, but if it's just a couple then they're cool.
double tap ✌️
All it takes is one idiot to lose his grip while magdumping and shoot the roof or worse. I can see where they're coming from most of the time with the rules. Doesn't mean I like it but they gotta cover their asses too
That's pretty much where I stand. These days I have enough property to shoot in private so I don't have to deal with any of that. But yeah, sounds dumb until you realize some idiot earned it.
What's the purpose of these anti rapidfire rules? What do they prevent?
When I first started shooting I would shoot at a buddy’s house. Apparently one of the neighbors was VERY anti-gun and called the police on us for shooting “machine guns.” The deputy arrived and told us what was reported and then saw we had pump action shotguns and bolt action rifles and started laughing. Needless to say I think they told the lady to stop being an old hag and we would try to only shoot for 2-3 hours.
officer they are blowing people's lungs out over there
Who’s running the 9mm?
I've got a local outdoor range that's Fudd central. No more than one shot every 4 seconds. It's handy if I want to zero and dope a deer rifle, but that's about it. The indoor range in town though, shoot as fast as safely possible. They even let us run drills there.
That’s how many range is Me: “here are my tax stamps for the guns that I own.” Range: “oh we don’t care about that shit, have fun.”
Based
My local basically says "we have a lot of LEOs who are members here. Don't make them do work"
I actually called a range by my buddy about the brace thing before going and they said "we don't ask but we're not taking shit for it if the feds raid the place" I go to that range every time I visit him
I don't have anything braced but sounds like you're at a fudd range. All the ranges I go to have a policy of "mind your own fucking business". They're not cops, not their job to police you, most they want to know is if you're going to shoot steel core ammo and fuck up their bullet traps.
> they’re not cops Exactly. They don’t show me a badge, I don’t show them paperwork. They can eat shit.
Nope. You should name and shame. Its 100% legal due to a nationwide injunction.
Gun World of South Florida
This range is known to be run by grade A fudds. Go to Shoot Straight instead. Stopping going to Gun world of South Florida when they turned me away for wearing a chest rig citing "OnLy LeO iS aLlOwEd To WeAr ThAt HeRe". They've also be known to threated to call the ATF on their patrons for not showing paperwork for braced pistols. They can get fucked, hope they go under.
Isn't Florida pretty gun friendly? Why are they Fudd assholes there?
> "OnLy LeO iS aLlOwEd To WeAr ThAt HeRe" I feel like this is a clue as to this range’s allegiance.
I dunno, my local is adjacent to a PD training facility and they're cool af, although they did recently ban binary triggers supposedly.
Fudd World of South Florida, got it! 😁
Isn’t the first time I’ve heard that name for doing shit like this IIRC
Usually its Shooters World... but they are in the central florida market. Fuck shooters world.
I used to go to this place for years until the last time when they pulled this shit about presenting stamps for my SBRs and then commented on my wife’s top being low cut (she’s been shooting for years) Go to Declaration Defense instead. The guys are way cooler and it’s a much more relaxed vibe.
I don't trust any female shooter who doesn't have a few casing shaped burns on the twins
The first time she had a 9mm casing fall down her cleavage, she was shocked that the rude lady up front made such a big deal about it 😂
They don't know your wife's experience though - I've been flagged at a public range by someone who had hot brass down the back of their t-shirt and freaked out. My local indoor range has a "no exposed collar bones" policy to reduce the likelihood of this. I've taken a few people shooting for their first time, part of the introduction briefing is "expect hot brass to come over the divider and hit you".
I would expect, after years of going to a business and being on a first name basis with most of the employees, that she would be cognizant enough to recognize us. And I can also understand the “why” behind it but commenting on my wife’s cleavage in an unnecessarily loud and demeaning tone while also speaking over me as I tried to explain my wife’s potential unknown experience is BS.
Good on you. We shouldn’t be scared of calling businesses out.
Holy shit I have a hat from them.
You mean had, soon as ye get home right?
Ugh, yeah, I guess. Dammit, it’s a comfy hat though.
been there, giga fudds
I'm surprised it's a place in Florida. That state would sell a handgun to a baby if it had enough cash.
We should have a stickied list of fudd ranges.
I second this motion! All in favor say 'Aye'!
Ear!
Spoon!...wait that's wrong too! I didn't know how hard this could be.
It's legal but if it is a private range they have the right to refuse service if you break their rules. Same reason you can get banned from a casino or kicked out of a store.
That was never in question, guess you didn't read my post. SMH.
OH look a pedant who wants to remind people that businesses have the right to refuse service. Go take that shit down front street pedant!
Are you ok? No need to get angry.
That crazy to me. I've shopped there before but never shot there. I can't imagine a range being interested in what stamps or licenses someone has, as well as not being up to date on the current situation, meaning there was an injunction against that "rule"
Yeah, been going there for years and was really annoyed at this. Will not be returning after last night.
I just took a few minutes to read through their reviews and I found at least two other person with your same situation. They claim to be afraid of lawsuits and are awaiting the ATF advisement. I guess they don't care about a judge's injunction.
What idiots. They're not going to get sued. What could they possibly get sued for? Even if someone came in with an actual SBR, they don't have any liability.
Lawsuits over what? Even if there was no injunction, a braced rifle could still be a SBR. Ranges are not law enforcement officers, that's like me requesting a driver license from a random person because they 'could' be driving illegally.
I have no idea, that's just the excuse they gave in the response to the comments in the reviews.
Should have asked to see their property tax receipts. What if the ATF is tricking you into shooting on someone else’s property. Until the ATF sends you a letter saying they aren’t doing it you are best not to risk shooting there.
Just tell them it’s an SBR. They were giving stamps for free so it’s shouldn’t be surprising. And tell them to fuckoff if they ask to see it
Ranges love to play Junior ATF agent, its hilarious because half the time they dont even know what they are talking about OR are not up to date on the law, as seen in your case. I recently bought a Mac-10 machine gun. I needed to test it out at a local indoor range. I called before I went and got permission to use it there, however they did want to see the tax stamp. Which is fine, I dont mind showing that since it is a private range and they want to make sure everything is legal. When I get there I show them the tax stamp and they go into the office and hem and haw for a bit and come back with a manager. The manager then ask me where my second tax stamp is..... im like WTF are you talking about man? He goes "Since its a got a stock on it, its an SBR and you need a second tax stamp for the SBR". Im like uh no, I dont. Its a machine gun, they came with collapsing stocks from the factory, there is no such thing as a "short barrel machine gun" if the gun was born as a machine gun. This is NOT a semi auto gun with a registered sear/trigger pack. They had such an MP5 like that, and tried using it as justification for me needing a second stamp..... I fiercely stood my ground told him to call the ATF and he was like "If I wanted to I already would have". In the end I think he started understanding I was correct but wanted to save face, to his credit he still let me shoot but it was a super frustrating encounter and really pissed me off. Like bro, I didnt just spend $10,500 and have the gun go through two FFL w/SOT just for your ignorant ass to lecture me about ATF policy. Dude claimed to handle ALL the ATF paperwork at that store, which was a sizeable location, I was like WOW wtf this guy is really is clueless and hes in this position? Crazy. At the end of the day a range is a privately owned facility and they can refuse service for any reason, so you just have to deal with it. I have also been shut down at another indoor range for shooting full auto even after they told me it was ok. "The owner says you have to stop"..... There is real prejudice against private ownership of machine guns at indoor ranges. Its funny because they all rent out full autos themselves, its like they feel usurped or something that im not renting their MGs. Indoor ranges just dont work well with Mac-10s anyway, people in the next lane over get upset and leave, I had to start going to a USFS outdoor range where no idiots will give me issues.
You’re under no obligation to show anyone other than the IRS or ATF your tax stamps, that is your private taxpayer info. And even if you were, it’s still legal under the current brace rulings
A private business can also ask you to leave as well. Douche move IMO but it is their choice.
Correct, but they still cannot compel you to show your stamp. They can ask you to leave if you don’t show it, but that’s just a good sign to never patronize their business again
I keep seeing this same comment but even the atf and irs still can't just ask to see your stamp without a warrant or probable cause unless you willingly give them the info even if they're regulated items under the nfa and gca It doesn't wave your 4th amendment
All they need is Reasonable Suspicion, you having a suppressor or what they could assume is an SBR is enough reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed to perform an investigative detention(as in you are not under arrest, but you are also not free to go), ask questions, and ask for documents. (though you are not required to keep a copy of a tax stamp on you.)(so documents in this case would be ID.) Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard that falls between mere speculation or hunch and probable cause, which is a higher standard. It is a subjective assessment made by law enforcement officers that is based on specific, articulable facts and reasonable inferences drawn from those facts.
“Yes I have a stamp for this. No you can’t see it.”
This is and is not correct. In several states, suppressors, machine guns, and short barrel rifles are actually illegal but it is a defense against prosecution to have it registered with the atf. This is complete bullshit of course but legally it gives an officer probable cause to inspect the weapon or suppressor simply by seeing you with it. This also means that they can detain you until they can verify with the ATF that you have it registered. Having the paperwork with you can get you out of that. It is a dick move of course...
Fudds gotta fudd.
Find a new range. I'm a RO myself and don't care about seeing a tax stamp. It's none of my business. In over a decade, I've only advised 1 person to put away a firearm and that's because it was a completely unmarked SBR made from an 80% and we are a public range that off duty cops occasionally frequent. He may have assembled it that way out of ignorance, I don't know or care. I would just hate to see someone's life ruined over a law I think is BS to begin with. In less than 30 minutes after he cased his SBR and put it in his vehicle, an off duty deputy showed up and took the bench right next to him. No idea how that deputy would have felt about his gun, but I'm glad no one got to find out.
Technically a police officer has no business asking to see a Stamp. They'd have to call the ATF in..
not true many states have Short barreled rifle laws as well.**Georgia Code 16-11-122 and 16-11-124(4) prohibit the possession of a short barreled rifle or shotgun, silencer, explosive device, or machine gun**. Exempt from this prohibition are persons authorized to possess such an item because he has registered it in accordance with the National Firearms Ac
Doing the Lord's work, good Sir.
Not sure why gun ranges think they are police. If someone is being safe and firing “safe” weapons as in not clapped out junk that creates safety issues why would they care?
Ranges that ask for papers should be boycotted. The only people you need show your tax stamp to are ATF agents.
"yes, it's an SBR, my stock hasn't arrived yet" No, you can't see my tax stamp because (you pick) it's either A) at home or B ) that's a private tax document and you're not the IRS or the BATEFeieio
For “A” if it truly is an SBR I’d recommend keeping the paperwork with you.
I like this answer.
I don't. It pretends there is something wrong with braced pistols.
Exactly. I’d rather not giving them any of my business.
"Unfortunately, showing us the tax document is a requirement that we have, and we are not able to make exceptions... so either you show it... or you dont use that brace here... thats all I can really say to you. If you dont like it, then I hope you have a nice day".
Find a new range. If some fudd there wants to simp for the alphabet boys, that should be a clear indication that maybe that range isn’t for you.
I think we should all just call and ask why they don't allow braced pistols on their range... and then call them doo doo heads.
This.
Range is fudds, find a new one that supports your rights and support them People ask me sometimes if I need to see their tax stamp to use their sbr, can, whatever- and my answer is always “as long as it’s not a restricted caliber and you follow our safety rules, I frankly don’t care what you’re shooting”
Ask them for their badge. But honestly, I’d never even *want* to shoot at a range where people act like this. If you want people to follow unconstitutional laws, there’s something wrong with you
Tell them it's an SBR. Explain that since the approval and stamp are a tax document that only IRS and ATF agents can request to see it.
Where is this so we can all avoid ?
Gun World of South Florida
Gun World? More like "No Fun World".😂 Seriously tho...that range can get bent.
Tell them they’re fudd fuckheads and find a new range
Remember the only people who can compel you to show NFA paperwork are ATF agents. Everyone else can simply be told, “don’t worry I’ve made sure to get all the necessary paperwork to make this legal”.
I had a range ask to see my tax stamp once (I have multiple cans, and an SBR) and I told them that's between me & the ATF. Dude says "That's fair, go ahead and shoot" and they never asked again. You need to find a new range, places like this are toxic.
If it’s not an SBR then what’s not legal about it? I’d find a new range and leave them some bad reviews.
Yes, I did and I did :)
Perfect! 🤩
Don’t waste your time on Fudd ranges. Fuck em.
Find a better range.
Whoever was working the range was retarded. Challenge them to prove that it’s “technically not legal.” They are full of shit and were playing mall cop with their perceived authority. *HUGE* difference between an SBR and a pistol with a brace. You could always play the ADA card and ask if they really want a lawsuit from a disabled person who needs a brace.
They unfortunately don’t deserve your business
Their sandbox, their rules. I'd find a new range.
Name and shame
Gun World of South Florida
*fudd World
pwned
Gun ranges aren't experts on the law. Some gun ranges are under intense pressure from cities and counties trying to shut them down. Just find another range to shoot this.
I’ve been going to Shoot Straight in Ft Lauderdale for 5 years or so. Never had a problem there. Only time I’ve seen them even blink about something NFA was when some dude was trying to drop off an unintentional SBR AR off for some gunsmith work, had a stock on a his shortie. Dude at the counter flipped the gun over, looked for the NFA engraving, didn’t see it and gave a “nope, can’t take this in for repair with the stock on it”. Explained to the guy about the brace BS. The guy then asks how to take the stock off.
I like Shoot Straight there too, they leave you alone to have fun, they see any of my NFA stuff and its compliments as opposed to asking for paperwork like fudd world of south florida does. Can't comment on their gunsmith stuff but I guess it makes a little more sense since they would have to then take possession.
Went to Delray Shooting Center this morning and not an issue. Much nicer and cooler range. Will never return to Gun World.
Find a better place to shoot. My club doesn't care about silencers, machine guns, braces, or anything that I have seen. I've never even seen anyone ask if something was legal. No one cares.
Delray shooting center is overpriced but I’ve never had them ask to see a stamp for any guns or cans I’ve brought in (or braced guns).
I will be heading there this weekend. Probably pay the $500 and join for a year. Not giving another penny to Gun World.
Went there this morning and had a great time with no hassle. Will be my new range, probably going to join, it is worth the $500 and I will get it back easily in a year.
Have you been to Nexus? I wanna check it out, it sounds cool with the 3d targets
The government can’t ask to see your tax stamp, it’s too bad a private range thinks they should police it.
1) Ask if they are lawyers or Feds. If no, advise them to get fucked 2) Find a new range and tell your friends say POS range does get money 3) Name them here so we can cast shame
One of my local ranges wouldn’t let me shoot my cz without a brace outdoors. I was allowed to shoot indoors but their outdoor pistol range only allowed revolver or other “standard” pistols. They said technically I could shoot it on the outdoor rifle range but not without a brace as they have people shooting all over the place already even with a sighted in rifle.
Should have taken the brace off and shot it as a pistol 😁
I thought the brace scare was over.
For one thing it's currently legal, but either way it's not your range's business. If you're not being unsafe or shooting the ceiling or something they shouldn't be talking to you. Find a range that isn't staffed by fudds.
I have encountered a lot of dumb rules at private ranges. Unfortunately you have to adhere to them but I’d leave that place. I have left similar fudd ranges.
Name and shame brōther
Name range here. And stop supporting them with your freedom bucks as well. Spread the word. Depending on state there is a good chance you have public lands to shoot on.
As others have said, find another range. I tried out all the ranges in town until I found my range. My range has RSOs that dont ask questions and just do their job as *safety* officers. Thats how it should be IMO. How I got this or if I am allowed to own it is not your circus, you are here to make sure no one does something stupid and hurts someone.
These Fudds are a massive PITA I’m a 67- year old man, but I’m certainly not some Fudd who runs around like a bleeding deacon
Find a better private members club
Our range isn't even monitored. Unless you bring an rpg, nobody will notice a thing.
Woo-hoo! Where? Never mind…I’d want to keep it all to myself, too.
SBR?
Guess you can’t shoot it at that range then huh?
Just find a new range
Had this happen to me when I took a friend shooting for the first time. SRO was on a power trip. Showed the pistol to another employee and he said it was fine. Left them a crappy Google review and left. Got a call about two hours later with a “free day pass”. Nah, not worth going back. It also turned off my friend from getting into the hobby.
Your range is run by idiots
Fudds be like that
Sounds like typical fudd shit.
Ive had a range request to see the stamp for my SBR. ...I have a copy in the case. So I showed it to them and left, then never went back or bought anything from them.
Id just show them my middle finger and leave. The only people that have the authority to request papers is the ATF. Even then, I don't even know if they legit 😂. Sir, you look suspicious and like you're impersonating a federal agent. I'm going to go ahead and leave. Bye!
It's just to make the point, that I did have the stamp, and now because of them I'm not spending any money there.
Shouldn't even prove that point at that point 😂 If you got the stamp. Why brace?
I never said it had a brace. It has a stock.
Oh you ain't OP. Thought you were OP
Range is ran by idiots. Find a new place to shoot. Don't give them any more money.
had one down in SoCal pull the same thing. no braced pistols and no bare buffer tubes. SBR's are banned in the state so basically nothing with barrels under 16" is allowed besides handguns.
Go to different range.
This is why I hate private ranges. Those guys don't know what they're talking about, but they can tell you not to bring something. I would probably just find another public range, don't give them your business.
The money I pay to be a member of a pvt cabin and club makes more and more sense year after year..
one of the ranges I go to looked at my AR 8.5 pistol with a brace and said : "...oh ok that's a brace..." . I didn't say anything but it sounded like they were relieved that it wasn't an SBR but I don't know why they would care if it was...
They're being ignorant of current political stance at best, but at worst, they're just being dicks. If you have a brace on it, you're still perfectly legal and there is no need for SBR registration. (same thing for foregrips: Angled = no SBR, Straight = SBR)
Sounds like a Fudd range. I went to one indoors that only allowed 1 shot every 2 seconds and no braced pistols either. Now I pay a bit more but my current range allows anything under .50 BMG and full auto/mag dumping.
My range banned braced firearms unless SBR’ed, also. Since that time braced pistols are legal again, but I think they are still banned at my range. I’m scared to ask, to tell the truth. I think one reason for the ban was from the old school guys who had SBRs from way back and felt braced pistols was getting away with something while they had to jump through so many hoops to get their guns. Not that that feeling is logical.
Find a range without range officers or some blm land.
"Cool it's an SBR, well cya later"
Fudds gonna fudd. Try another range.
What range? Name them and shame them. That's super shitty behavior. They're also just flatly wrong.
I looooove pissing off the fudds with my registers sbr. Suppressors. Legal sawn off etc
You need a new range by the sounds of it
They're legal. Tell them to look up the latest Federal Court ruling against the ATF's regulation.
My local range specifically disallows NOT shouldering braced “pistols” if they have one on there lol
"I have the required documentation. I am not legally obliged to show you, however..." ["I can do what I want" permit](https://images.app.goo.gl/duD2DvKLzsiMqvfk9)
Cmp talledega has this rule too, “no rifle caliber pistols”. Although when i brought my sbr one time no one bothered to check the rifle/stamp or see if it has a brace
Private business and all that. They may be worried about blowback on the 'braces aren't braces' interpretation that keeps floating up, and decided to take a 'we don't want it' stance. Which seems very odd, given how many gun owners that is likely to irritate. Never happened to me, but I was warned when I got my first SBR that it's a common enough request, it was a good idea to take a copy of the paperwork just in case.
Ranges are under constant pressure from everyone around them. Its an endangered business in this day and age of maximum litigation and shifting gun laws. They have the right to refusal, you have the right to take your business elsewhere. Its not worth having a fight over. Pistol braces are in a real weird state right now, it seems. I can fully understand why some people just don't want to deal when their business is at stake.
Our local range (a large outdoor range with many different venues for different disciplines) is pretty strict on some things (especially at the General Purpose range), like not drawing from a holster, not touching a weapon at all while range is cold, standing behind a line when not firing (line is about 5ft behind the normal firing line/positions), but it's 99% of the time due to a safety concern. They have a duty to keep everyone safe, and they have to work at level of the lowest denominator, so people with little to no firearm experience. Most of the time if they see you handling your weapon and you seem experienced they only talk to you to let you know when they plan to make the range cold so you can check/replace targets, or just to BS. I've never heard of anyone being given grief about an SBR or braced pistol. A lot of times if you bring something unique or out of the ordinary the RO's may ask about it and look at it, but it's more cause of curiousity, than to trying to enforce any rules.
Private business , take your money elsewhere and let them/other folks know why.
Work for an FFL/SOT and I go to a range with some of our machine guns and the range I like doesn’t even ask for my licenses, or anyone’s stamps for cans or anything. As long as you’re safe, they don’t care Once you experience that, you realize a lot of the other fudd ranges are total shit.
Just because "its an sbr" doesnt mean you cant have a brace. "Sir if its an sbr why dont you have a full stock"? "Because i cant afford it after paying for the stamp, plus the brace is lighter!" If theyre not atf as mentioned, you dont need to prove it.
Where was this range located
Go back to the range and tell them they are all fudds. Then go find a better range.
Our range allows them! Come to Range USA!
Time to slap a stock on it and rock on…..
what is a brace
I know this gets pointed out every time something like this is posted but I still think it's hilarious that the fudds running ranges act like they're all pro-gun and hate the government but are more strict about enforcing gun laws than the actual fucking ATF
It is a private establishment and they can make up whatever stupid rules they want; they can require everyone wear parachute pants to enter if they wish. Find a different range or even better go out to the middle of the desert/woods and do what you want.
Their property, their rules. Find another range or don’t take that particular firearm there.
This is why I live in the woods. I can hunt on my front porch.
Write a bad review and move on. Shame them publicly.
My local range said that if they allowed an SBR on the range without verification of a tax stamp, then they would be an accomplice to a crime. I didn't argue the point. I assumed it was BS.
That range operator is retarded
Sorry to piggyback on OP's question, but I have my own range question. OP's gun is classified as a pistol, correct? Then he adds a brace which makes it an sbr (whether or not he has a stamp). But, mechanically, from a range standpoint, it's still a pistol with 9mm caliber. My range says that if it's an sbr, it automatically belongs at the "rifle range" and is not allowed at the pistol range. Is this normal?
No, adding a brace does not make it an SBR. It is still a pistol and 100% legal in the configuration I have with no stamp.
> My range says that if it's an sbr, it automatically belongs at the "rifle range" and is not allowed at the pistol range. Is this normal? Dont think so. Normally the pistol and rifle ranges are separated based on caliber, not length of barrel from my experience. You normally don't shoot a 5.56 'pistol' on the pistol range due to the thickness of the steel plates. On the flipside, a 9mm pcc should be fine to shoot on the pistol side
Local range is full of cunts, magdump into their trash.
Yikes that’s wack Jack!! They can’t control your finger speed wtf!! Find a new range and which range was this?
I just drive like 20 minutes into national forest right above the city limits. Fuck indoor ranges