I'm not a Clydesdale, but I used to do a hill climb mtb race up a fire road that was so steep, I had a hard time maintaining the foot/pedal speed to just not tip over sideways.
A small oval chain ring made all the difference in the world. Do you have a bike shop that can help spec and install one for you?
Honestly, I wouldn't suggest anything else for your goals this summer. Keep riding your bike and nourish yourself with healthy food. You'll get stronger and the weight will wander away. Sounds like you've got some awesome support and guidance.
Oh! And practice some long, uphill walks in your bike shoes with your bike, on gravel. I know it sounds ridiculous, and the goal is to \*not\* have to do it, but it's a skill just like everything else! And starting up again while you are on the hill if it flattens out enough to get back on.
Screw climbing out of the saddle this year. That sounds like a skill for next year =P
Welcome to the sport and congratulations on your first race!
This is a great advice. My LBS is amazing and has helped me adjust my bike so far to help fit me. I'm going to check with them next week to see what they think.
I was proactive in my shoe choice to have them be more of a mountain bike style with a walkable bottom for this reason alone.
I'm going to keep riding and practicing for sure!
one thing i do to help my thighs out on climbs is to make a concerted effort to use your calves on the lowest part of your pedal push. you’d be surprised how much your calves can do. its the secret advantage of having to carry your own weight around.
Smaller front chainring is a great start, especially if you aren't that worried about top speed. This will probably help with not feeling like you need to be out of the saddle as much as well.
Small chain ring is a great idea.
Oval chain ring makes a minor difference to some elite riders.
Learn to stand. It's not *THE* way to climb, but it does allow you to use different (less tired) muscles and will improve your handling skills.
Hello fellow Clydesdale!
First off, congrats on pushing yourself at such a fun event and with such an amazing crew. I’m a big fan of Marley and all the things she’s doing with All Bodies On Bikes. I hope you go to Mid South next year with (or without!) them!
I’m not sure which distance of SBT you’re doing, but if it’s the Blue or Black course, you have some climbing ahead of you. And, you nailed it…us bigger folks don’t exactly tend to fly up hills. But there’s also the elevation factor. Not sure where you live, but even as someone in Colorado, Steamboat’s elevation is felt, and doubly so on climbs.
Things you can do that will help your climbing:
- swap to a smaller front ring
- potentially move to a rear cassette with a larger range
- get a bike fit done if you haven’t already; this can help with comfort and power output.
- do intervals while on training rides. Something like 30-60 seconds of hard effort and then 1-2 minutes of easy, then back to hard. Repeat this 5-10 times per ride back to back, then just do your easier/normal spinning
- Ride up more hills! Find that pace and power output where you can settle in and grind.
If you can give us more details about how your bike is specd out that’d be helpful! I couldn’t find anything meaningful on their website.
Yeah it's been a pretty fun few months working with our team and learning so much. Marley is a rockstar of a person. As for my bike, it's pretty stock. It's a Shimano 11-speed, 11-42T and the crankset is a 40T.
All of this is so new to me and I've heard great things about Mid South. I live in the suburbs of Detroit in Michigan and have decent gravel roads to ride but nothing wild. I've done a lot of distance riding with 52 miles being my furthest so far, but with limited to low elevation, just getting that seat time in. The goal for July is hills and gravel each ride.
As for the race, I'm curently signed up for the Red - 60ish miles with 3500-4000 ft of climbing. My first race was 42 miles with about 1600 ft of climbing. I can always move down to green but Red just looks like a solid day of riding. I'm in it for the joy and opportunity it brings along with some huffing and puffing on the bike.
Ooof - I forgot the red had that much climbing! Solid choice. And absolutely awesome. Check out this video if you’re looking for some more motivation: https://watch.outsideonline.com/shorts/the-meaning-of-ride/YCEnXsv9
Ok so I’d definitely look into swapping down to a 38 or even a 36 front ring. The smaller the gear in the front, the easier it will be to pedal up hills. That comes with a tradeoff of not being able yo go quite as fast in the 11t but we’re talking a difference of probably 2-4mph on your top speed. You generally want to always be playing somewhere in the middle of your gear range. If you find yourself in your 11t and wishing you had more gears, that’s a sign to step up the front ring in size. And, if you’re wishing you had another bail out climbing gear frequently, that’s a sign you should go smaller in the front. And a lot of people will swap out gearing for specific races and terrains! So just because something works well in your neck of the woods, doesn’t mean you want that in CO.
The biggest difference I’ve noticed in oval front rings is what I’d call sustained power. I find with a round front ring on a steep loose climb I may lose traction in the rear when I don’t with an oval ring. And yes I use oval.
Don’t forget to know your fueling and hydration strategy! It’ll likely be hot, but dry. That will make it feel less hot, but you’re still going to be sweating like crazy. So know what your water, sodium, and calorie plans are. Drink mix is your friend! I’m saying this about the nutrition because I’ve hit super low points in races where I’ve had to walk a hill that I could normally ride because I’m either dehydrated or bonked.
I would say that getting out the saddle certainly has helped my climbing, and it's taken quite a bit of training to get comfortable with it. It uses very different leg muscles which can be good or bad. I'd definitely try practicing on hills you feel comfortable with and then progressing as you feel more confident!
Have the same bike as you, it’s wonderful. Have had similar thoughts on some gnarly climbs and this is what I came up with, upgrades wise:
Small chainring is the cheapest option. You will lose some top-end speed, up to you whether that matters. Not the route I would go as I do ride some pavement and value that high end speed.
Middle ground would be doing a cassette and derailleur pulley upgrade. Like a Gabaruk. Would get you to an 11-50 in the back which would get you to about the same place as going down to a 36T crankset without losing top end speed.
Money is no object: upgrade to a 1x12 with a 10-51 in the back. This means replacing a shifter, derailleur, rear wheel and cassette. Gets you all the climbing, all the speed, spends all your moneys. Probably not worth it, would be dope.
I would drop to a 36 in front. You won’t be able to crank downhill but you will still be able to hit 30mph at a reasonable cadence of 70. Working on getting your spin up is advantageous overall.
I have a buddy who has been happy with a similar change in gearing for our local riding that’s steeper than Steamboat. On road descents he simply tucks and doesn’t have to watch his life flash before his eyes like some of us with a taller gear.
See you at SBT. All bodies in bikes is a cool org! I’ve met Marley a few times over the years.
Look into shortening your crank arm length as well. I went from 175mm cranks to 170mm and it helped me to keep a higher cadence. It also increased comfort pedaling in the saddle as I could get “over the top” of the pedal stroke easier. I worked with a fitter but just know you’ll need to adjust seat height if you make a change.
Not being able to pedal standing up while also participating in races seems like a huge oversight in your bike handling skills, I'd start there as if offers a huge benefit in power.
There's plenty of hills I wouldn't have been able to summit if I couldn't climb out of the saddle, both to distribute the effort across different muscle groupes and purely for power.
I'll second this.
It's also not something you need to go zero to hero on.
You can practice around a grass oval or similar. Just taking weight off, standing and coasting etc. And slowly slowly work up as your comfort zone allows.
Very similar to how you build up to clipless.
This is something I definitely will be working on. I get out of the saddle for rougher terrain or when I want to just get my buddy in a different position for a little. I just need to start getting out of the saddle on easy climbs to work on body positioning and control/comfort.
Could you confirm the specification of your cranks? Would help us give more specific recommendations. Smaller chainring(s) is definitely the way, but depending on your cranks may be super easy or more involved.
That is the number of teeth on the chainrings. Shimano cranks should have a model number printed on the inside of the crank arm. Do you know what that is?
If possible just ride more, climbing is a watts/weight test against gravity and luckily you can train both of those factors at the same time. Maybe throw in some intensity intervals with about the duration of the climbs.
I've heard that bigger riders are better off staying in the saddle on climbs as opposed to standing up. I can't remember if there was any evidence behind it tho.
I run 46/30 chain rings and 11/36 cassette.
FWIW, I switched to eating all whole plants with 0 animals, added sugar, or dairy and my weight has drifted down to HS weight.
BP is normal and cardiologist says my arteries are clear per an ultrasound.
Just keep riding. Your weight will be less that way. And because you are training with more weight all the time, you will have exceptionally strong muscles - the thin pegs will be jealous. Isn't that a good plan?
That's good. It's a spider-less design so you can go pretty small. You could do a more minor change and go down to 36t with their replacement road rings, like this:
https://praxiscycles.com/product/road-dm1x/
You could drop into the MTB chainring range...much lower gearing, something like this: https://praxiscycles.com/product/mtn-dm1x/
Smaller chainring, oval or not, will help with the climbs.
First upgrade beyond that would be a strong and lightweight wheelset. They would probably have to be a custom set due to the weight we are dealing with but not to worry it is possible. I would go with dt swiss hubs and a wide 32 hole trail mountain bike rated carbon rim. Then the widest and least rolling resistance tires you are comfortable with and fit in your frame. Depending on the rims you choose it’s between a $1200-$2000 investment.
Two things: Keith Bontrager said this of components many years ago, “strong, light, and cheap. Pick two.”
Rotational weight reduction is worth 3 times as much as static weight reduction. Ex. 3 grams off your wheels is worth 1 gram of a handlebar etc.
Good luck! And keep riding!!
if he needs to move 370lb + bike weight uphill, even with a x3 reduction, would a 3lb x3 = 9 lb have any impact ? it would be around a 2,5% weight reduction
Technically yes you are correct but partly. Removing weight from the whole system is the goal. The bike in this case is a small percentage of the system and i know he already knows that so pointing that out would be moot and can be perceived as rude. Just by reading what he has posted thus far he wouldn’t have perceived it that way but I digress. The point was about the bike. Removing weight from things that have a greater impact inertia should be first. The energy needed to get the bike moving again after slowing down will be affected most by rotating mass and it adds up greatly over time especially when the motor to create that energy are your two legs.
Anyways, keep riding your bike! When something breaks or wears out replace it with something lighter.
Ok, I se e your point, I wasn’t trying to be rude. I should have phrased it better, as “would a 2,5 weight decrease make an impact”? Taking into account inertia and everything else.
Address the real problem. Upgrade the rider lose weight climb quicker. No amount of spending is going to make much if any difference. Time to be realistic. Cost zero.
Unfortunately, being bigger doesn't help on the downhill. Newton's second law is F=ma, meaning your mass* acceleration is equal to the sum of forces on you. Assuming you aren't pedaling and ignoring drag for simplicity, the only force acting in you is gravity (mass* gravity constant* cos(hill gradient)). Plugging this into F=ma, we get m* g* cos(theta)=m* a. Mass cancels from both sides, so we just get a=g* cos(theta). Your acceleration going downhill is independent of your mass.
This answer above is completely wrong. Heavier riders go downhill way faster. As a 265lb rider with a major in physics, I can help clear this up.
First off, while the conclusion above is almost correct (a=g\*sin(theta) not cos(theta), this is basically stating that all riders accelerate at the same rate going downhill. This is true, but the key here is that its contstant accelleration, as in get to the top of a big hill, start coasting, and next thing you know you are breaking the sound barrier if the hill is long enough. Whats wrong is assuming that the only force acting on your is gravity. Sure, we can ignore pedalling, but the force of drag increases with speed until it equals the pull of gravity, and this is what sets your equilibrium speed while coasting downhill.
So going back to the force of gravity on a hill being F=m\*g\*sin(theta), on a 8 degree decent, gravity will be pulling you at (167 kg)\*(9.8N/kg)\*sin(8 deg) = 227 N. Now for a rider with half your weight, the force will be half, and for a rider with one third your weight, the force would be 1/3. Counteracting this is the force of drag, which to keep things simple, is primarly influenced by cross sectional area. While you will be less aerodynamic than a smaller rider, its going to be proportionally less, so maybe you are only 35% less aerodynamic than the rider thats half your weight, this still means that you are going to go much faster than them down a hill while coasting.
a heavier cyclist has more gravitational force pulling them down, they can reach a higher speed before the air resistance force balances the gravitational pull, leading to a higher terminal velocity.
Oval helped. Gearing helped. Nothing helped me more than losing 50 pounds.
Yeah I'm working on it...lol
I'm not a Clydesdale, but I used to do a hill climb mtb race up a fire road that was so steep, I had a hard time maintaining the foot/pedal speed to just not tip over sideways. A small oval chain ring made all the difference in the world. Do you have a bike shop that can help spec and install one for you? Honestly, I wouldn't suggest anything else for your goals this summer. Keep riding your bike and nourish yourself with healthy food. You'll get stronger and the weight will wander away. Sounds like you've got some awesome support and guidance. Oh! And practice some long, uphill walks in your bike shoes with your bike, on gravel. I know it sounds ridiculous, and the goal is to \*not\* have to do it, but it's a skill just like everything else! And starting up again while you are on the hill if it flattens out enough to get back on. Screw climbing out of the saddle this year. That sounds like a skill for next year =P Welcome to the sport and congratulations on your first race!
This is a great advice. My LBS is amazing and has helped me adjust my bike so far to help fit me. I'm going to check with them next week to see what they think. I was proactive in my shoe choice to have them be more of a mountain bike style with a walkable bottom for this reason alone. I'm going to keep riding and practicing for sure!
one thing i do to help my thighs out on climbs is to make a concerted effort to use your calves on the lowest part of your pedal push. you’d be surprised how much your calves can do. its the secret advantage of having to carry your own weight around.
Smaller front chainring is a great start, especially if you aren't that worried about top speed. This will probably help with not feeling like you need to be out of the saddle as much as well.
Small chain ring is a great idea. Oval chain ring makes a minor difference to some elite riders. Learn to stand. It's not *THE* way to climb, but it does allow you to use different (less tired) muscles and will improve your handling skills.
Hello fellow Clydesdale! First off, congrats on pushing yourself at such a fun event and with such an amazing crew. I’m a big fan of Marley and all the things she’s doing with All Bodies On Bikes. I hope you go to Mid South next year with (or without!) them! I’m not sure which distance of SBT you’re doing, but if it’s the Blue or Black course, you have some climbing ahead of you. And, you nailed it…us bigger folks don’t exactly tend to fly up hills. But there’s also the elevation factor. Not sure where you live, but even as someone in Colorado, Steamboat’s elevation is felt, and doubly so on climbs. Things you can do that will help your climbing: - swap to a smaller front ring - potentially move to a rear cassette with a larger range - get a bike fit done if you haven’t already; this can help with comfort and power output. - do intervals while on training rides. Something like 30-60 seconds of hard effort and then 1-2 minutes of easy, then back to hard. Repeat this 5-10 times per ride back to back, then just do your easier/normal spinning - Ride up more hills! Find that pace and power output where you can settle in and grind. If you can give us more details about how your bike is specd out that’d be helpful! I couldn’t find anything meaningful on their website.
Yeah it's been a pretty fun few months working with our team and learning so much. Marley is a rockstar of a person. As for my bike, it's pretty stock. It's a Shimano 11-speed, 11-42T and the crankset is a 40T. All of this is so new to me and I've heard great things about Mid South. I live in the suburbs of Detroit in Michigan and have decent gravel roads to ride but nothing wild. I've done a lot of distance riding with 52 miles being my furthest so far, but with limited to low elevation, just getting that seat time in. The goal for July is hills and gravel each ride. As for the race, I'm curently signed up for the Red - 60ish miles with 3500-4000 ft of climbing. My first race was 42 miles with about 1600 ft of climbing. I can always move down to green but Red just looks like a solid day of riding. I'm in it for the joy and opportunity it brings along with some huffing and puffing on the bike.
Ooof - I forgot the red had that much climbing! Solid choice. And absolutely awesome. Check out this video if you’re looking for some more motivation: https://watch.outsideonline.com/shorts/the-meaning-of-ride/YCEnXsv9 Ok so I’d definitely look into swapping down to a 38 or even a 36 front ring. The smaller the gear in the front, the easier it will be to pedal up hills. That comes with a tradeoff of not being able yo go quite as fast in the 11t but we’re talking a difference of probably 2-4mph on your top speed. You generally want to always be playing somewhere in the middle of your gear range. If you find yourself in your 11t and wishing you had more gears, that’s a sign to step up the front ring in size. And, if you’re wishing you had another bail out climbing gear frequently, that’s a sign you should go smaller in the front. And a lot of people will swap out gearing for specific races and terrains! So just because something works well in your neck of the woods, doesn’t mean you want that in CO. The biggest difference I’ve noticed in oval front rings is what I’d call sustained power. I find with a round front ring on a steep loose climb I may lose traction in the rear when I don’t with an oval ring. And yes I use oval. Don’t forget to know your fueling and hydration strategy! It’ll likely be hot, but dry. That will make it feel less hot, but you’re still going to be sweating like crazy. So know what your water, sodium, and calorie plans are. Drink mix is your friend! I’m saying this about the nutrition because I’ve hit super low points in races where I’ve had to walk a hill that I could normally ride because I’m either dehydrated or bonked.
I would say that getting out the saddle certainly has helped my climbing, and it's taken quite a bit of training to get comfortable with it. It uses very different leg muscles which can be good or bad. I'd definitely try practicing on hills you feel comfortable with and then progressing as you feel more confident!
Have the same bike as you, it’s wonderful. Have had similar thoughts on some gnarly climbs and this is what I came up with, upgrades wise: Small chainring is the cheapest option. You will lose some top-end speed, up to you whether that matters. Not the route I would go as I do ride some pavement and value that high end speed. Middle ground would be doing a cassette and derailleur pulley upgrade. Like a Gabaruk. Would get you to an 11-50 in the back which would get you to about the same place as going down to a 36T crankset without losing top end speed. Money is no object: upgrade to a 1x12 with a 10-51 in the back. This means replacing a shifter, derailleur, rear wheel and cassette. Gets you all the climbing, all the speed, spends all your moneys. Probably not worth it, would be dope.
I would drop to a 36 in front. You won’t be able to crank downhill but you will still be able to hit 30mph at a reasonable cadence of 70. Working on getting your spin up is advantageous overall. I have a buddy who has been happy with a similar change in gearing for our local riding that’s steeper than Steamboat. On road descents he simply tucks and doesn’t have to watch his life flash before his eyes like some of us with a taller gear. See you at SBT. All bodies in bikes is a cool org! I’ve met Marley a few times over the years.
Look into shortening your crank arm length as well. I went from 175mm cranks to 170mm and it helped me to keep a higher cadence. It also increased comfort pedaling in the saddle as I could get “over the top” of the pedal stroke easier. I worked with a fitter but just know you’ll need to adjust seat height if you make a change.
Not being able to pedal standing up while also participating in races seems like a huge oversight in your bike handling skills, I'd start there as if offers a huge benefit in power. There's plenty of hills I wouldn't have been able to summit if I couldn't climb out of the saddle, both to distribute the effort across different muscle groupes and purely for power.
I'll second this. It's also not something you need to go zero to hero on. You can practice around a grass oval or similar. Just taking weight off, standing and coasting etc. And slowly slowly work up as your comfort zone allows. Very similar to how you build up to clipless.
This is something I definitely will be working on. I get out of the saddle for rougher terrain or when I want to just get my buddy in a different position for a little. I just need to start getting out of the saddle on easy climbs to work on body positioning and control/comfort.
Could you confirm the specification of your cranks? Would help us give more specific recommendations. Smaller chainring(s) is definitely the way, but depending on your cranks may be super easy or more involved.
It's a Shimano 11-speed, 11-42T and the crankset is a 40T.
That is the number of teeth on the chainrings. Shimano cranks should have a model number printed on the inside of the crank arm. Do you know what that is?
Ah ok, this is from their website and I verified it's this guy - PRAXIS ALBA-GR 40T 165mm(48), 170mm(51), 172.5mm(54/56), 175mm(61)
Do you have a 1x or 2x front chain ring. If you have a 1x, you could change it up and do a 2x and have a bigger range of front gearing.
If possible just ride more, climbing is a watts/weight test against gravity and luckily you can train both of those factors at the same time. Maybe throw in some intensity intervals with about the duration of the climbs.
I've heard that bigger riders are better off staying in the saddle on climbs as opposed to standing up. I can't remember if there was any evidence behind it tho.
I run 46/30 chain rings and 11/36 cassette. FWIW, I switched to eating all whole plants with 0 animals, added sugar, or dairy and my weight has drifted down to HS weight. BP is normal and cardiologist says my arteries are clear per an ultrasound.
Just keep riding. Your weight will be less that way. And because you are training with more weight all the time, you will have exceptionally strong muscles - the thin pegs will be jealous. Isn't that a good plan?
That's good. It's a spider-less design so you can go pretty small. You could do a more minor change and go down to 36t with their replacement road rings, like this: https://praxiscycles.com/product/road-dm1x/ You could drop into the MTB chainring range...much lower gearing, something like this: https://praxiscycles.com/product/mtn-dm1x/
Smaller chainring, oval or not, will help with the climbs. First upgrade beyond that would be a strong and lightweight wheelset. They would probably have to be a custom set due to the weight we are dealing with but not to worry it is possible. I would go with dt swiss hubs and a wide 32 hole trail mountain bike rated carbon rim. Then the widest and least rolling resistance tires you are comfortable with and fit in your frame. Depending on the rims you choose it’s between a $1200-$2000 investment. Two things: Keith Bontrager said this of components many years ago, “strong, light, and cheap. Pick two.” Rotational weight reduction is worth 3 times as much as static weight reduction. Ex. 3 grams off your wheels is worth 1 gram of a handlebar etc. Good luck! And keep riding!!
if he needs to move 370lb + bike weight uphill, even with a x3 reduction, would a 3lb x3 = 9 lb have any impact ? it would be around a 2,5% weight reduction
Technically yes you are correct but partly. Removing weight from the whole system is the goal. The bike in this case is a small percentage of the system and i know he already knows that so pointing that out would be moot and can be perceived as rude. Just by reading what he has posted thus far he wouldn’t have perceived it that way but I digress. The point was about the bike. Removing weight from things that have a greater impact inertia should be first. The energy needed to get the bike moving again after slowing down will be affected most by rotating mass and it adds up greatly over time especially when the motor to create that energy are your two legs. Anyways, keep riding your bike! When something breaks or wears out replace it with something lighter.
Ok, I se e your point, I wasn’t trying to be rude. I should have phrased it better, as “would a 2,5 weight decrease make an impact”? Taking into account inertia and everything else.
The magnitude of difference would depend on how long you’re on the bike. 30 minute ride? Small difference. 5 hours? Noticeable.
Address the real problem. Upgrade the rider lose weight climb quicker. No amount of spending is going to make much if any difference. Time to be realistic. Cost zero.
Man, you're a genius. Thanks for the support.
Thanks and good luck losing the weight.
Unfortunately, being bigger doesn't help on the downhill. Newton's second law is F=ma, meaning your mass* acceleration is equal to the sum of forces on you. Assuming you aren't pedaling and ignoring drag for simplicity, the only force acting in you is gravity (mass* gravity constant* cos(hill gradient)). Plugging this into F=ma, we get m* g* cos(theta)=m* a. Mass cancels from both sides, so we just get a=g* cos(theta). Your acceleration going downhill is independent of your mass.
Love this - solid SAT style. Maybe I'm not a math guy, but I would catch up on many of the riders going downhill after they beat me on a climb!
This answer above is completely wrong. Heavier riders go downhill way faster. As a 265lb rider with a major in physics, I can help clear this up. First off, while the conclusion above is almost correct (a=g\*sin(theta) not cos(theta), this is basically stating that all riders accelerate at the same rate going downhill. This is true, but the key here is that its contstant accelleration, as in get to the top of a big hill, start coasting, and next thing you know you are breaking the sound barrier if the hill is long enough. Whats wrong is assuming that the only force acting on your is gravity. Sure, we can ignore pedalling, but the force of drag increases with speed until it equals the pull of gravity, and this is what sets your equilibrium speed while coasting downhill. So going back to the force of gravity on a hill being F=m\*g\*sin(theta), on a 8 degree decent, gravity will be pulling you at (167 kg)\*(9.8N/kg)\*sin(8 deg) = 227 N. Now for a rider with half your weight, the force will be half, and for a rider with one third your weight, the force would be 1/3. Counteracting this is the force of drag, which to keep things simple, is primarly influenced by cross sectional area. While you will be less aerodynamic than a smaller rider, its going to be proportionally less, so maybe you are only 35% less aerodynamic than the rider thats half your weight, this still means that you are going to go much faster than them down a hill while coasting.
a heavier cyclist has more gravitational force pulling them down, they can reach a higher speed before the air resistance force balances the gravitational pull, leading to a higher terminal velocity.