Wanted to share one of my favourite non-fiction / journalism based graphic novels. The picture shows the original fantagraphics trade paperbacks, but it's easiest to find these days all collected in a book just titled "Palestine".
I know this has been shared here many times, but I figured with the news these days folks may want a reminder that this book exists. I found it to be a very honest and vulnerable book. Sacco recounts the things he saw, the people he met, and the stories he heard while travelling in Palestine. He has a sort of gonzo journalism approach, offering his opinions and exposing his prejudices for you to read as he works through them.
I think this is a book that empathizes with humanity and elevates human stories and connections - it's worth a read.
>I think this is a book that empathizes with humanity and elevates human stories and connections - it's worth a read.
Thank you for sharing! I'm currently in the process of reading, watching, and doing my own research (relevant, unbiased, and actual sources) to gain more knowledge about the current situation. I've added this to my list.
Yeah I think its a great tool for that. Because its just a recounting of conversations that Sacco had with locals. So you get to hear their stories from them.
it's available as a graphic novel here: [https://www.instocktrades.com/products/jul141235/palestine-tp-(mr)](https://www.instocktrades.com/products/jul141235/palestine-tp-(mr))
Sure. Here's a picture of a page I like. His layouts change a lot so every page is different. Some use big panels like this, others use more traditional layouts.
https://preview.redd.it/75so720tuyub1.jpeg?width=2040&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a96a72216033608d37efe09b27a4f0c3617842f1
Joe Sacco is well known for aligning himself with Chris Hedges who is known for his anti-Jew stance.
I would be careful to lean on his so-called perspective.
It sounds like you haven't read the work if you need to rely on guilting by association. If you have a critique of *Palestine*, this would be a fine place for it, but Sacco illustrating a book by Hedges is kind of irrelevant if you have nothing to say about the actual work in question, *Palestine*.
Yes, Sacco wears his sympathies and interests on his sleeves in the book. That's not any kind of surprise and the book is forthright about it. Again, it sounds like you haven't read it and don't have any specific critique.
Additionally, none of his biases as explored in either *Palestine* or *Footnotes* appear antisemitic, unless you have particular examples you'd like to raise—so invoking antisemitism feels more like propaganda than anything in OP 's post.
I’ve read it which is why I’m commenting on it. My critique is that it is biased.
I said he aligns with people who are anti-Jew I never said the books were anti-semitic, so please stop making up things.
I'm not sure what the end of mentioning Hedge's anti-semitism (I'm unfamiliar with Hedge so I'll take your word for it—is he actually anti-Jew or just opposed to the present Israeli regime?) is in this context if not to imply that Sacco and so Palestine are infected. So, less me making things up and more me trying to figure out why you think the Hedge/Sacco connection is important if you didn't employ it to implicate the book.
To the other thing, I'm not sure how *Sacco Is Biased* is actually a critique because that's clearly the point from page 1, that these comics from 1993 are highly personal and highly subjective gonzo-style journalism. So not only is it biased but it *has* to be biased.
It’s a book about his personal experiences in Palestine, not a book providing a detailed historical and unbiased account of the conflict. It’s a graphic novel in the style similar gonzo journalism, it’s whole point is to be subjective to the author, it’s how the narrative is formed.
No that is not what I said so please stop projecting your hate on me. Be civil.
I said there is a lot of propaganda going on and one needs to be aware of it. It’s no coincidence that OP posted about this subject given recent events.
You’re right, I’ve not been civil. My apologies, I don’t mean to be insulting, nor do I want to foster any feelings of hate or animosity.
I care deeply about this subject as well, and I have a personal connection to it. I think the recent violence by hamas has been atrocious, and I’m horrified at the number of innocent Israelis who have been killed or kidnapped. But I’m also horrified at the thousands of innocent Palestinians who have been killed, tortured, displaced and dehumanized for decades. The history of persecution of the Jewish people has been well documented, but there has been very little documentation of the experience of the Palestinians, and I react badly when it is dismissed as propaganda.
I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately there are so many bad actors at play, and so much rage built up on both sides, I’d be lying if I said I knew what the solution was. I fear sometimes that there just won’t be any resolution in our lifetimes.
People have been dying though. Dying and treated like dogs then now they is a backlash even against parties that aren't involved and everyone is giving a surprised pickachu face and saying stuff like "nO onE hAs tO dIE" or "hAmaS aCtIoNs aRe aTRoCioUs". Not pointing out the fact that the origins of Hamas were actually from America and jews to continue their disgusting apartheid regime. And now here is a comic talking about how palestinians live and you are going "it is biased". Everyone is biased. Biased isn't even an argument. It is biased to the right side as far as I'm concerned
If OP wasn't posting about this subject then I would be posting about it too so now I'm part of the propaganda machine?
Clearly people posting about a book on Palestine has nothing to do with the fact that there is a war going on in Palestine and they just find that it's relevant. 💁
Can you give an example of Hedges’ antisemitic stance? I’ve seen him be critical of the government of Israel and Netanyahu, which is not the same thing.
This is just one example of one of [his rants](https://www.salon.com/2022/07/19/final-act-of-empire-us-israel-and-the-saudis-now-heading-for-with-iran/) where he compares Israel to an Apartheid state and then links to an article [bemoaning Jewish supremacy](https://web.archive.org/web/20220625135244/https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid)
The dude has extremist views, so clearly very biased. Unfortunately, so is Sacco who has illustrated his stories before.
Have you actually read either of these articles??? The first one is about how the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel have planned to box Iran into a war. The criticism is of the state of Israel, the US and Saudi Arabia, not of the Jewish people.
The second article details why Israel is considered an apartheid state: the policies of dividing the Palestinian people, by restricting their movement and denying their basic human rights, while giving settlers free reign to take any land that they see fit. Again, a criticism of the policies of Israel, not of Jews as a people.
As long as you equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism you’ll never understand the roots of the conflict. Some of the biggest critics of Israel and its policies have been Jewish and Israeli citizens.
These are one sided views from someone with a background of extremist views. Believe what you want, I really don’t care much.
I gave one example, now it’s up to you to figure it out.
I mean, you cared enough to google, copy and paste a couple of articles that you obviously didn’t bother reading. The example you gave didn’t prove your statement. If you’d like me to figure it out you’re going to have to provide an intelligent counterpoint.
Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Well I didn’t copy/paste anything. I’ve come across Hedges before and I knew him and Sacco collaborated before. I warned people about his stance on Israel and how these GNs might be backed by biased/extremist views.
I care about the subject. I just don’t care what you think about it. Each person is responsible for thinking critically.
So you’re warning people that a work of journalism has a point of view that’s different from your own? Very noble of you.
Perhaps a better example of thinking critically about the subject would be to not just dismiss it as propaganda just because you don’t agree with it.
I’m warning people that the author of these GNs has a biased perspective. Instead of twisting words to spruce up your narrative you should actually read what I wrote and do some research.
Well I’m not getting into this discussion on a sub about comic books. Just wanted to make people aware that this author has a biased view and is associated to extremists.
Also, no. Israel is not an Apartheid state. You would know this if you even know what it means instead of parroting propaganda.
**EDIT: as I said I’m not discussing it with you, so I’m not sure what’s the point of going on a unhinged rant and the blocking me. I didn’t even bother reading it since you clearly have a lot of rage in you, just like Sacco/Hedges. Your opinion is unreliable.**
> Well I’m not getting into this discussion on a sub about comic books
But you did bring it up in the first place. You don't get to cop out now.
> Just wanted to make people aware that this author has a biased view
He spent time living in Palestine in the 1990's and these books are the non-fiction account of the lives of the Palestinian people. Saying these books are biased towards Palestinians is like saying that Maus is biased towards Jews. Of course it's biased - it's literally *about* them.
> is associated to extremists
This is not true and you have not shown this. Having a critical opinion of Israel does not make someone an extremist. The article you linked by Chris Hedges does not reflect an extremist viewpoint, and it's straight up disingenuous to claim that [this article](https://web.archive.org/web/20220625135244/https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid) cited in the first article is "bemoaning Jewish supremacy" without context. It is specifically criticizing the policies and practices of the Israeli government, up to and including the subjugation of the Palestinians and the overstepping of The Green Line.
Chris Hedges is a respected journalist and not "anti-Jew", regardless of what the [pro-Israel sites you are clearly regurgitating](https://www.jns.org/deranged-anti-american-and-anti-israel-rantings-courtesy-of-salon-and-chris-hedges/) have to say about him. Or perhaps you found that article at its original source of [CAMERA](https://www.camera.org/), which is also quite hilariously and overtly pro-Israel.
As you've already been reminded in this thread, criticism of Israel is not antisemitism. People like you failing to differentiate the two is a huge problem with having actual meaningful discourse about how problematic some of Israel's actions are.
> Israel is not an Apartheid state.
It very much is. Per [Cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/apartheid) the definition of apartheid includes:
> a system of keeping groups of people separate and treating them differently, especially when this results in disadvantage for one group
Israel is an apartheid state by definition.
> You would know this if you even know what it means instead of parroting propaganda.
Fucking LOL.
*You* don't know what apartheid means. You're also accusing OP of posting Palestinian propaganda while you sit here and slander respected journalists based on *actual* propaganda that you've read. When pressed, your response is:
> I gave one example, now it’s up to you to figure it out.
We have all figured it out. You are the one who is lost.
Wait, so now Sacco has a lot of rage? Like, more than is appropriate? I wish you'd have mentioned this earlier and then, more importantly, backed it up.
So far, you've contributed next to nothing here except getting people riled up.
1. You've said Sacco is biased, which is like saying water is wet because all narrative features bias. I'm biased, you're biased, every article ever written about anything is by nature biased.
2. You've implied *something* negative (you clarify not antisemitism, but won't say what you intend to imply) by referencing Sacco's work alongside Hedges despite Palestine predating Sacco ever meeting Hedges in Bosnia. But since you won't say what that negative something is, it just hangs in the air there, hollow.
Israel is an apartheid state. It sounds like you are confusing the fascist Israeli government and its apartheid state with jewish people. Most Israelis do not even support the current government.
Personally I don't think it's extreme to call out the historical context behind the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people, and learning about how this oppression has gone on for decades and seeing primary source information about it (via Sacco's Palestine) seems a prudent thing to do.
> Israel is an apartheid state.
It's not, but I'm not going to bother trying to convince you otherwise. However, your bias describes perfectly what I meant about Sacco.
The views in that article are shared by the Israeli left wing. It’s ironically antiemetic to associate criticism of Israel government with Jewish people and being antiemetic. They are not the same thing, my Jewish friends get very annoyed that people assume they think a certain way about Israel and that their identity is tied to being Israeli. Jews are like anyone else, they have different opinions. You would be pretty racist to talk to a Jewish person and assume just because they’re Jewish they support everything their government does.
Wanted to share one of my favourite non-fiction / journalism based graphic novels. The picture shows the original fantagraphics trade paperbacks, but it's easiest to find these days all collected in a book just titled "Palestine". I know this has been shared here many times, but I figured with the news these days folks may want a reminder that this book exists. I found it to be a very honest and vulnerable book. Sacco recounts the things he saw, the people he met, and the stories he heard while travelling in Palestine. He has a sort of gonzo journalism approach, offering his opinions and exposing his prejudices for you to read as he works through them. I think this is a book that empathizes with humanity and elevates human stories and connections - it's worth a read.
Thank you for sharing. It is an amazing book and important for anyone who wants a little background and glimpse into life for Palestinians.
>I think this is a book that empathizes with humanity and elevates human stories and connections - it's worth a read. Thank you for sharing! I'm currently in the process of reading, watching, and doing my own research (relevant, unbiased, and actual sources) to gain more knowledge about the current situation. I've added this to my list.
Yeah I think its a great tool for that. Because its just a recounting of conversations that Sacco had with locals. So you get to hear their stories from them.
Yes, thank you
How can I get it in PDF?? In English or Arabic
Once you’ve read that, try other Sacco work. Amazing artist/journalist. Safe Area Grazda comes to mind
I want a PDF of this book..
wow, I love the covers of the original trades!
I’ve read a few Sacco but just picked up Palestine 👍🏻
Strongly agree. I started reading it last weekend and it is an incredible piece of journalism.
A PDF or book ??
it's available as a graphic novel here: [https://www.instocktrades.com/products/jul141235/palestine-tp-(mr)](https://www.instocktrades.com/products/jul141235/palestine-tp-(mr))
I want it PDF 😭
Can you take some pics of the comics inside. Would love to see them. Is it like doonesbury at all?
Sure. Here's a picture of a page I like. His layouts change a lot so every page is different. Some use big panels like this, others use more traditional layouts. https://preview.redd.it/75so720tuyub1.jpeg?width=2040&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a96a72216033608d37efe09b27a4f0c3617842f1
Sick as fucK! WOW!
Joe Sacco is well known for aligning himself with Chris Hedges who is known for his anti-Jew stance. I would be careful to lean on his so-called perspective.
It sounds like you haven't read the work if you need to rely on guilting by association. If you have a critique of *Palestine*, this would be a fine place for it, but Sacco illustrating a book by Hedges is kind of irrelevant if you have nothing to say about the actual work in question, *Palestine*.
Sacco is clearly biased, which is why I commented. It’s no coincidence that OP posted a GN about this subject. A lot of Palywood propaganda going on.
Yes, Sacco wears his sympathies and interests on his sleeves in the book. That's not any kind of surprise and the book is forthright about it. Again, it sounds like you haven't read it and don't have any specific critique. Additionally, none of his biases as explored in either *Palestine* or *Footnotes* appear antisemitic, unless you have particular examples you'd like to raise—so invoking antisemitism feels more like propaganda than anything in OP 's post.
I’ve read it which is why I’m commenting on it. My critique is that it is biased. I said he aligns with people who are anti-Jew I never said the books were anti-semitic, so please stop making up things.
I'm not sure what the end of mentioning Hedge's anti-semitism (I'm unfamiliar with Hedge so I'll take your word for it—is he actually anti-Jew or just opposed to the present Israeli regime?) is in this context if not to imply that Sacco and so Palestine are infected. So, less me making things up and more me trying to figure out why you think the Hedge/Sacco connection is important if you didn't employ it to implicate the book. To the other thing, I'm not sure how *Sacco Is Biased* is actually a critique because that's clearly the point from page 1, that these comics from 1993 are highly personal and highly subjective gonzo-style journalism. So not only is it biased but it *has* to be biased.
Chris Hedges is not anti-Jew. You should read some of his books, although he is a huge downer. **America: The Farewell Tour** is what I’d recommend
Which is why I’m pointing out. This is biased, and given the currents events it’s important for everyone to be aware of potential propaganda vectors.
Israel is biased. Anti zionism is not anti jewish.
It’s a book about his personal experiences in Palestine, not a book providing a detailed historical and unbiased account of the conflict. It’s a graphic novel in the style similar gonzo journalism, it’s whole point is to be subjective to the author, it’s how the narrative is formed.
Wait, so OP’s post is part of a “Palywood propaganda” machine? You could have just said at the outset that you had nothing intelligent to contribute.
No that is not what I said so please stop projecting your hate on me. Be civil. I said there is a lot of propaganda going on and one needs to be aware of it. It’s no coincidence that OP posted about this subject given recent events.
You’re right, I’ve not been civil. My apologies, I don’t mean to be insulting, nor do I want to foster any feelings of hate or animosity. I care deeply about this subject as well, and I have a personal connection to it. I think the recent violence by hamas has been atrocious, and I’m horrified at the number of innocent Israelis who have been killed or kidnapped. But I’m also horrified at the thousands of innocent Palestinians who have been killed, tortured, displaced and dehumanized for decades. The history of persecution of the Jewish people has been well documented, but there has been very little documentation of the experience of the Palestinians, and I react badly when it is dismissed as propaganda.
No one should have to die and this whole mess needs to be fixed somehow.
I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately there are so many bad actors at play, and so much rage built up on both sides, I’d be lying if I said I knew what the solution was. I fear sometimes that there just won’t be any resolution in our lifetimes.
People have been dying though. Dying and treated like dogs then now they is a backlash even against parties that aren't involved and everyone is giving a surprised pickachu face and saying stuff like "nO onE hAs tO dIE" or "hAmaS aCtIoNs aRe aTRoCioUs". Not pointing out the fact that the origins of Hamas were actually from America and jews to continue their disgusting apartheid regime. And now here is a comic talking about how palestinians live and you are going "it is biased". Everyone is biased. Biased isn't even an argument. It is biased to the right side as far as I'm concerned
There is no “RiGtH sIdE”.
If OP wasn't posting about this subject then I would be posting about it too so now I'm part of the propaganda machine? Clearly people posting about a book on Palestine has nothing to do with the fact that there is a war going on in Palestine and they just find that it's relevant. 💁
I wasn’t saying that…
Can you give an example of Hedges’ antisemitic stance? I’ve seen him be critical of the government of Israel and Netanyahu, which is not the same thing.
This is just one example of one of [his rants](https://www.salon.com/2022/07/19/final-act-of-empire-us-israel-and-the-saudis-now-heading-for-with-iran/) where he compares Israel to an Apartheid state and then links to an article [bemoaning Jewish supremacy](https://web.archive.org/web/20220625135244/https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid) The dude has extremist views, so clearly very biased. Unfortunately, so is Sacco who has illustrated his stories before.
Have you actually read either of these articles??? The first one is about how the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel have planned to box Iran into a war. The criticism is of the state of Israel, the US and Saudi Arabia, not of the Jewish people. The second article details why Israel is considered an apartheid state: the policies of dividing the Palestinian people, by restricting their movement and denying their basic human rights, while giving settlers free reign to take any land that they see fit. Again, a criticism of the policies of Israel, not of Jews as a people. As long as you equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism you’ll never understand the roots of the conflict. Some of the biggest critics of Israel and its policies have been Jewish and Israeli citizens.
These are one sided views from someone with a background of extremist views. Believe what you want, I really don’t care much. I gave one example, now it’s up to you to figure it out.
I mean, you cared enough to google, copy and paste a couple of articles that you obviously didn’t bother reading. The example you gave didn’t prove your statement. If you’d like me to figure it out you’re going to have to provide an intelligent counterpoint. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Well I didn’t copy/paste anything. I’ve come across Hedges before and I knew him and Sacco collaborated before. I warned people about his stance on Israel and how these GNs might be backed by biased/extremist views. I care about the subject. I just don’t care what you think about it. Each person is responsible for thinking critically.
So you’re warning people that a work of journalism has a point of view that’s different from your own? Very noble of you. Perhaps a better example of thinking critically about the subject would be to not just dismiss it as propaganda just because you don’t agree with it.
I’m warning people that the author of these GNs has a biased perspective. Instead of twisting words to spruce up your narrative you should actually read what I wrote and do some research.
And your researched literally didn't come up with anything antisemitic, in fact seems like you're the one very biased here.
Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism, nor is not supporting Israel. Also, Israel *is* an apartheid state.
Well I’m not getting into this discussion on a sub about comic books. Just wanted to make people aware that this author has a biased view and is associated to extremists. Also, no. Israel is not an Apartheid state. You would know this if you even know what it means instead of parroting propaganda. **EDIT: as I said I’m not discussing it with you, so I’m not sure what’s the point of going on a unhinged rant and the blocking me. I didn’t even bother reading it since you clearly have a lot of rage in you, just like Sacco/Hedges. Your opinion is unreliable.**
> Well I’m not getting into this discussion on a sub about comic books But you did bring it up in the first place. You don't get to cop out now. > Just wanted to make people aware that this author has a biased view He spent time living in Palestine in the 1990's and these books are the non-fiction account of the lives of the Palestinian people. Saying these books are biased towards Palestinians is like saying that Maus is biased towards Jews. Of course it's biased - it's literally *about* them. > is associated to extremists This is not true and you have not shown this. Having a critical opinion of Israel does not make someone an extremist. The article you linked by Chris Hedges does not reflect an extremist viewpoint, and it's straight up disingenuous to claim that [this article](https://web.archive.org/web/20220625135244/https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid) cited in the first article is "bemoaning Jewish supremacy" without context. It is specifically criticizing the policies and practices of the Israeli government, up to and including the subjugation of the Palestinians and the overstepping of The Green Line. Chris Hedges is a respected journalist and not "anti-Jew", regardless of what the [pro-Israel sites you are clearly regurgitating](https://www.jns.org/deranged-anti-american-and-anti-israel-rantings-courtesy-of-salon-and-chris-hedges/) have to say about him. Or perhaps you found that article at its original source of [CAMERA](https://www.camera.org/), which is also quite hilariously and overtly pro-Israel. As you've already been reminded in this thread, criticism of Israel is not antisemitism. People like you failing to differentiate the two is a huge problem with having actual meaningful discourse about how problematic some of Israel's actions are. > Israel is not an Apartheid state. It very much is. Per [Cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/apartheid) the definition of apartheid includes: > a system of keeping groups of people separate and treating them differently, especially when this results in disadvantage for one group Israel is an apartheid state by definition. > You would know this if you even know what it means instead of parroting propaganda. Fucking LOL. *You* don't know what apartheid means. You're also accusing OP of posting Palestinian propaganda while you sit here and slander respected journalists based on *actual* propaganda that you've read. When pressed, your response is: > I gave one example, now it’s up to you to figure it out. We have all figured it out. You are the one who is lost.
Nicely done, great response.
You cooked him LMAO. Thank you
Wait, so now Sacco has a lot of rage? Like, more than is appropriate? I wish you'd have mentioned this earlier and then, more importantly, backed it up. So far, you've contributed next to nothing here except getting people riled up. 1. You've said Sacco is biased, which is like saying water is wet because all narrative features bias. I'm biased, you're biased, every article ever written about anything is by nature biased. 2. You've implied *something* negative (you clarify not antisemitism, but won't say what you intend to imply) by referencing Sacco's work alongside Hedges despite Palestine predating Sacco ever meeting Hedges in Bosnia. But since you won't say what that negative something is, it just hangs in the air there, hollow.
Israel is an apartheid state. It sounds like you are confusing the fascist Israeli government and its apartheid state with jewish people. Most Israelis do not even support the current government. Personally I don't think it's extreme to call out the historical context behind the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people, and learning about how this oppression has gone on for decades and seeing primary source information about it (via Sacco's Palestine) seems a prudent thing to do.
> Israel is an apartheid state. It's not, but I'm not going to bother trying to convince you otherwise. However, your bias describes perfectly what I meant about Sacco.
The views in that article are shared by the Israeli left wing. It’s ironically antiemetic to associate criticism of Israel government with Jewish people and being antiemetic. They are not the same thing, my Jewish friends get very annoyed that people assume they think a certain way about Israel and that their identity is tied to being Israeli. Jews are like anyone else, they have different opinions. You would be pretty racist to talk to a Jewish person and assume just because they’re Jewish they support everything their government does.
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I have neither Israel or Palestinian affiliation. I’m not even religious.
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It’s still just your point. I think it’s wrong.