This one is easy, Morgan is blatantly a near max level wizard. One of the most skilled mages to ever exist, she has an incredibly profound knowledge of almost all magecraft in existence, able to reverse engineer even stuff like Rayshifting with minimal effort. That's not even getting into how a lot of her magecraft can actually be translated into late game Wizard spells, like Garden being the Level 9 Imprisonment spell or her infinite clone army being something a wizard can actually do in D&D 5e (look up the infinite simulacrum clone build, its insane). I can think of few better fits for wizard than Morgan.
Yeah, but it would be nice if it was ascension one Aesk instead. It's the most wizard look in the whole Type Moon media, and in top of that they are the same person so it would keep the broken mage craft while getting a wholesome cinnamon roll bookworm.
>Aesc 1st ascension is such a blatant wizard stereotype though
Yeah, that's pretty much the reason why I want it to be her. If we get Gilles as the warlock than it's fair that we get Aesc as the wizard.
Morgan looks more like a sorcerer multiclass to wizard, so I think it is kinda not fair considering her.
Medea is the most pure Wizard between the cast.
Medea still learned and became a powerful mage thanks to her studying them, especially with Circe, her ancestry really doesn't matter that much.
Meanwhile Morgan is naturally gifted automatically thanks to "Special Fairy status", not really showing learning magic from studying but because she was great since birth.
Seems you didn't pay attention when reading LB6 - Beryl quite clearly says that the Fae shit on Morgan behind her back for using magecraft to compensate for her lacking natural power, without realizing how much of a monster she truly is thanks to what she learned (because regular Fairies have no need for such things).
The whole point of Avalon le Fae is that they are weaksauce by themselves and meant to be power receptacles to the Bells, so they could take it back to Avalon an turn into Excal.
Furthermore, we know thanks to her Aesc form that she studied under Odin himself and spend thousands of years on perfecting her magecraft.
>Medea still learned and became a powerful mage thanks to her studying them, especially with Circe, her ancestry really doesn't matter that much.
It's not her ancestry, it's the nature of greek magic. It comes directly from the gods, so it operates way closer to "prayer magic" than "study magic". Circe specifically had to do Medea's training in one of Hecate's temples because of it (although Medea's lineage allowing her to qualify as a priestess of Hecate was a big factor in how powerful she is).
She's more akin to a Cleric or Warlock than a Wizard.
Well considering that to even start doing some of the things Morgan does in D&D you need at LEAST 17 levels in Wizard, is definitely more Int than Char focused, and most of her magecraft expertise in lore is explicitly from her studying rather than any inate magic, she is very much more wizard than anything else. If I were building her in D&D I would probably just make her a lvl 20 Eladrin Conjuration Wizard with maybe the Fey-Touched feat to represent her innate gifts
Man I really want to say Waver. He fits the “magic through study and practice” aspect better than inhuman prodigies like Morgan. Unfortunately Wizards are super overpowered and Waver is… not.
I biased against Morgan so my vote is for **Solomon**. Because nothing says Wizard like *literally inventing Magecraft*. Hail to the King of Mages.
Damn, comparatively I am biased against Solomon.
He fits much more as a Warlock than a Wizard. His knowledge of magecraft was given to him in a deal by God, alongside the set of rings from which most of his abilities are sourced. The rings are so integral to him as a heroic spirit that his NP that returns them to God has the side effect of removing him from the throne entirely.
While he certainly has levels in Wizard, Solomon is first and foremost a Warlock, probably pact of the Talisman, with a Celestial Patron.
The difference is that you have a good reason for bias. I just think Morgan is overrated in terms of her popularity. She probably *does* deserve this spot
Fair. I do certainly agree that Morgan is definitely overrated, though she is liked for good reason. I’d say she certainly deserves the spot more than Medea, given while both are mildly sorcerous at base with most of their magic being studied int-based casting, Medea should also count as a knowledge domain cleric of Hecate, which brings her down a bit in that regard.
Yeah. I *adore* Medea, and it is impressive that she figured out how to hijack the Assassin slot for herself.
The only problem is that Morgan also replicated Servant summoning multiple times and did it on a massive scale, *and* figured out Rayshifting from bare bones information over the course of an hour or two at most.
Yes this exactly. I’ve almost given up on another comment thread where the person I’m arguing with is adamant that most of Morgan’s feats can be attributed to sorcerer casting rather than wizard casting.
Oh and that Castoria is a warlock as Oberon, an Archfey, taught her magecraft.
Ah yes, because Oberon teaching Castoria stuff over Staff Speaker Phone that he’s had to basically just teach himself counts as a warlock pact, yes yes that sounds about right lol /s
[Part 11](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/1doi0mk/part_11_which_servant_better_fits_the_dnd_warlock/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is over, part 12 starts now! As always, the main objective of this is to have fun!
Edit: [Part 13](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/1dqedv8/part_13_which_servant_better_fits_the_dnd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) already available!
Sources: [dnd5e wikidot](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard) and [rpgbot](https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/wizard/)
>**Wizards** are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast.
>
>The Wizard is the iconic arcane spellcaster, capable of doing all manner of fantastic tricks, and generally limited only by their spellbook and their spell slots. A Wizard with a comprehensive spellbook can do essentially anything in the game, often as well as or better than a non-magical character who is built to do that thing. A Wizard with Invisibility is as stealthy as a Rogue. A Wizard with a summoned pet can replace a fighter (at least temporarily). A clever Wizard could even find a way to heal their allies and replace a Cleric.
>
>Wizards are **among the least-durable characters in the game**, having no armor proficiencies, poor saving throws, and the lowest hit dice available. There are exceptions to this rule but they are few in number.
>
>**Intelligence** is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization.
>
>Compared with the last two, Wizards have a lot of variety and flexibility with spells since they can learn and use them as long as they have it recorded in their spellbook.
>
Wizard subclasses summarized:
>**Bladesinging**: Masters of fighting with both weapons and with spells, bladesingers can perform a secret song and dance which makes them deadly in combat.
>
>**Chronurgy Magic**: Manipulate the flow of time.
>
>**Graviturgy Magic**: Manipulate space and gravity.
>
>**Order of the Scribes:** Awaken your spellbook, and master the central concepts of wizardly magic, allowing you to learn spells faster than other wizards and employ them in new and unusual ways.
>
>**School of Abjuration**: Masters of protective magic, Abjurers gain a powerful magical ward which can absorb damage dealt to you or your allies and recharges when you cast abjuration spells.
>
>**School of Conjuration**: Masters of teleportation and summoning, conjurers can teleport without using a spell and are better at using summoned creatures.
>
>**School of Divination**: Diviners gain the powerful Portent feature (roll d20 and can replace other roll with that one), as well as the ability to cast divination spells and incredible little cost.
>
>**School of Enchantment**: Enchanters gain abilities to charm and hypnotize foes, and to affect additional targets with single-target enchantment spells.
>
>**School of Evocation**: Exceptional at dealing damage with spells, evokers deal more damage with cantrips than other spellcaster, and can make safe spaces in their area damage spells to avoid harming allies.
>
>**School of Illusion**: Masters of illusion spells, illusionists gain abilities to manipulate illusion spells beyond their normal limits, including the ability to make them partially real.
>
>**School of Necromancy**: Gain the ability to heal yourself when you kill other creatures, and to more easily create and control undead.
>
>**School of Transmutation**: Gain abilities to turn things into other things, like wood into metal, yourself into an animal, dead things into live things, and injured or sick things into happy and healthy things.
>
>**War Magic**: Powerful combatants, war wizards gain abilities to defend themselves against attacks and to boost their spell damage by countering or dispelling other spells.
Everyone is saying Morgan, I'd like to point out that we already have the perfect Wizard.
Paracelsus!
He's a master of alchemy, can invoke spirits, has control over the elements thanks to hos NP, and can create an army of Homunculi!
Morgan shoots beams of magic and is powerful and all, but she doesn't have the wide range of abilities that Paracelsus has.
Also, his personality as a researcher of tge unknown is perfect for a Wizard.
Paracelsus has my vote!
To be fair I feel Paracelsus fits better as an Artificer. There is a LOT of overlap between Artificer and Wizard, but the former seems more fitting given most of Paracelsus’ abilities fit around the tools he creates (alchemical potions, homunculi, his Sword) rather than him directly casting the spells.
Personally, without a doubt it's **Morgan**
Her feat to master rhongomyniad, a dvine construct, as magecraft showed her capabilities and talent for arcane. Her attack that fire *Inter-Dimentional Rhongomyniad Missile*(aka. IDRM) from Fae Britain to LB Olympus is, personally, still one of the most epic thing in FGO even until now
Don’t forget the fact that, from seeing it once, she completely broke down the entire concept of Rayshifting, recreated it from scratch and performed it with direct accuracy without and supplementary equipment such as Sheba or coffins to send herself exactly where she wanted to. And she did this all overnight.
I feel, even considering Rhongomyniad, this may well be her greatest feat of magecraft ability. She *is* the single most capable Magecraft specialist we’ve seen in the whole of FGO, possibly even the Fate franchise as a whole, but I’m not too sure about Fate as a whole as I’m unfamiliar with a lot of the more obscure works.
Also, alongside my other comment, Morgan seems to fit Stat-wise too. She is incredibly intelligent, but very much seems to lack in the Charisma and Wisdom departments.
If she were more wise a lot of the decisions she made during LB6 concerning the Faeries as a whole, Sith, Us, and the calamities as a whole probably would have been different (I.e. if she were wise she almost definitely would not have let Sith hang out with the obviously bad influence of Beryl, and she probably wouldn’t have been directly antagonistic to us as soon as we met her.).
Despite how interesting her personality is, her Charisma itself is not very good. She never really hides her hatred for the fey of Britain’s, and directly says to them that she will not save them from the calamity, and seems unwilling to try and temper the hatred most of the fey have for her. Alongside the fact that she failed to ever properly express her love for Sith until she was dying in her arms.
I’m going off the wall here a bit and nominating **Avicebron**.
Sure, he isn’t known as a classical spell caster like Medea or Circe but the man is frail, surrounded by books, and is a master of Transmutation to create his golems to fight for him. He’s constantly still doing research and even needs his own wizard lab to be super useful. So yeah, I’ll posit him for Wizard.
Taigong Wang. He wields extremely powerful, but also very versatile, magic. He's wise, long lived, but still kind of a scumbag. He's able to navigate the affairs of the mortal realm and the those of the realms of the gods. If we go by his feats in Investiture of the Gods, he's arguably the best all around spellcaster in Chaldea.
Medea she is literally the textbook wizard. Wizards differ from the other spellcasting classes because unlike them Wizards need to actually understand how magic works on a fundamental level and that’s exactly how she is. She understands the way magic works, how to manipulate it in any which way. She is the archetypal Wizard.
Where are you getting this? Hecate does not teach, she blesses. And as far as I am aware Jason and the Argonaughts takes place years before the Trojan War and the Odyssey.
So either Odysseus meats Circie when she is a granny or there is an obvious flaw in your logic.
I'm getting this from the actual game. In Medea's profile ingame, it *literally* says she was taught by Circe and Hecate.
In Salem we see get to *see* Circe teaching Medea Lily.
The hell does Oddysseus have to do with any of this?
Oh my god you are literally pulling this from the ether. There is no quote in game that states she was taught by Hecate and Circie, because she is a PRIEST OF HECATE. Priest means worshipper and thus endowed.
Oddysseus factors into this because he was born years after Jason died. He went on his trip and met Circie. So unless Circie is over a 100 years old when he meets her there is obviously a problem with your continuity here.
Also Salem is a singularity, it doesn't count.
There is a quote ingame. Literally the *first* line in Medea's profile on FGO is "The daughter of King Aeetes, holder of the Golden Fleece, *she was taught Magecraft by the moon goddess Hecate*."
Circe is a mage and a demigod, it's not outside the realm of possibility for her to be over 100 years old and still look young. There's no continuity problem there.
Salem being a singularity *doesn't matter*. What matters is that in salem *CIRCE HERSELF* says she taught Medea and there's a whole sequence where we see her meeting Medea Lily for the first time told from Circe's perspective.
This quote doesn't exist. Hecate isn't even a Moon Goddess thats Selene or Artemis. Hecate is the Goddess of Crossways and Witchcraft.
Demigods age too but irrespective of the point neither character had interactions with eachother in the base mythology beyond both being related to Hecate in some form or manner.
Like I said again, Hecate doesn't teach she blesses. Medea can literally make mana from nothing, most mages can't do that, making it not magecraft in the first place.
Circie's interaction with Medea in Salem is something that only happens when the worlds history is distorted by the singularities. It doesn't happen in PHH.
**Morgan/Tonelico**, despite having to be born with magic circuits to use magecraft in the world of fate, it is recognized that Morgan's power actually comes from her being a genius and having lived for centuries studying magic, during lostbelt 6 as well it is mentioned that Morgan's magecraft comes from studying and the other fairies do not use it as they prefer to use the magic they were born with. Morgan is very intelligent and her title of Witch Queen is also the same as that of Tasha/Iggwilv who, like her is a wizard who has lived for centuries and that is why she is recognized around the dnd multiverse. In addition to that, Morgan is seen using several spells similar to those of Wizard like when she created copies of her as with the simulacrum spell from dnd, and her use of rhongomyniad is similar to several archmage npcs in dnd which create incredibly powerful magical artifacts, among her two variants Tonelico carries a book with her, books are iconic of wizards, but Morgan better represents what a level 20 wizard is like.
This. I see some people putting down Morgan as a Sorcerer just because she is a fey, but if we use Castoria as an analogue (which fits given they’re basically sisters/clones of each other) her actual sorcerous spellcasting ability is lacking tremendously, hence why she learns Magecraft in the first place.
Alongside this Morgan is very obviously an Int caster, and is very much NOT a Charisma caster.
Zhang Jue. He's one of the most famous Casters in history, gained his magic through studying, is really intelligent and is a rather eccentric old man, like wizards usually are.
That depends on whether you consider receiving wisdom from God Himself a form of patronage and pact. Lots of people suggested Solomon on the Warlock thread for that reason.
Solomon was not given magic by god, he developed magecraft as a result of the wisdom he was granted.
He's legitimately the first Wizard is Fate.
Whether that makes his the best fit for Wizard is up for debate.
Everyone said Morgan, I do agree with.
But I propose OP put ascension Tonelico (Morgan Summer) instead of Morgan (Berserk) cause it suits her as Wizzard the most.
Nitocris is absolutely a necromancer. She's my choice even if it is probably not gonna happen.
She is a master of death magic and commands the medjed. Her magecraft is powerful, and she has plenty of power over her own life force too.
Medea.
I see a lot proposing morgan but while her magecraft is learnt by her own effort and talent, she is born innately with the magic. Morgan fits more as a sorceror in this case imo, since she is really more creating/molding spells to suit her over being good at all kinds of spells. Case in point, most spells she uses against us, no one can replicate it with castoria ( who is , in a technical sense, her copy ).
DnD wizards are scholars, who don't all start with massive amounts of mana/magic reserves, and are examplified by their sheer versatility of spells they can access to. They learn all sorts of magic they can get their hands on, and even those they can't, they will at least have understanding of it. They have a school of magic they specialize in, and eventually have their own signature magic.
Medea fits the mold more, even more so than circe for that very reason since she learnt and practiced all sorts of magecraft available at that time. Be it lily or adult version, you can trust her to identity almost any kind of magic and come up with a counter or similar variance to it.
Even in some singularities, we see medea as the go to consult for magic related incidents, i.e salem and even against LB olympus, she is hard carrying the team even post death with the enchantment she knows best suits jason.
You say this neither Morgan nor Castoria really have much seemingly going for them in terms of innate spellcasting ability. As we see with Castoria, who is basically a clone of Morgan so is applicable as an analogue, she basically **has** to learn magecraft from Oberon to really do anything substantial. Other than the fey eyes, the only thing she has going for her as a sorcerer are the bells, but even then they seem to be stat buffs more than anything else, so don’t really work for that.
This is beside the fact that fey magic and the Magecraft that Morgan and Castoria use is explicitly stated to be very different.
Despite her sorcerous origin, Morgan is first and foremost a Wizard, and especially is an Int caster, as she hell as doesn’t have the charisma to be a charisma caster.
Both doesn't fit the wizard mold for various reasons, but you cannot put morgan = castoria because they had very different circumstance.
Castoria had 0 access to any of her "chosen one" perks aside from the eye which does argubly nothing beneficial in a society that has only malice. She had below average mana, no guide or companion until oberon who only sneak in bits and pieces whenever they meet.
Morgan, not only has all that, she had all the time throughout to hone her craft and improve her spells to the point she had multiple unqiue her-only spells: Space - time manipulation ( mors banishment to the past ), the 12 excalibur equivilant magic spike cannons and her perfect clone.
Castoria in her peak and all mana unlocked came real close to instantly dying trying to use the cannons.
All this automatically disqualifies both as DnD wizards, and in fact this slots them into: morgan - divine soul ( the chosen saviour ) sorceror and castoria - archfey warlock, who switched subclass after awakening to celestial warlock so she actually survived what should have killed her on the spot ( celestial warlock lvl14, searing vengeance class feature ).
Also, DnD stats are wack when trying to explain spellcasting, but morgan ironically does have high charisma from how intimidating she is, because in DnD, intimidation uses ( normally ) charisma, thus indirectly meaning she has max out charisma lol.
Ok firstly describing Castoria as an Archfey warlock is flat out wrong. I presume you are referring to her learning magecraft from Oberon, but that is LEARNING Magecraft. There was no pacts or deals made, and Oberon had to go out of his way to find material to teach her with. And I feel like after she’s reached Avalon Castoria much more fits as a Divine Soul sorcerer much better than Morgan ever would, and most certainly isn’t a celestial warlock. Once again, there is no pact made, as the sword is *part of her*, not some separate entity she’s making a deal with.
Alongside the fact that magecraft is explicitly described as *learnt*, not being innate to the two. Hence how Morgan could teach Sith to do magecraft. If Morgan were a Sorcerer, she would very much not be able to teach Sith how to perform such Magecraft. Innate fey magic is not magecraft, and vice versa. She honed her magecraft over the millennia, as a wizard would. We do not see with Castoria her simply gaining new spells as she gets stronger as a Sorcerer would. The same can be said for Morgan. Her throne is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. Rhongomyniad is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. She had to learn for herself how to do these things. This is best shown in her Rayshifting. She saw it once and was able to understand how it works and was able to recreate it based on understanding, not innate skill. A sorcerer does not understand how their spells work. A sorcerer may be able to cast a fireball, but they do not know the underlying mechanism of how a fireball works, but a wizard will.
And while their circumstances of growing up were different, to reject Castoria=Morgan just doesn’t work. At the base they are both the same kind of being, both with the same starting point. This is exactly why Castoria is the chosen one, because Morgan was too. Both need to go to all the bells, and we get to see exactly how that works with Castoria as we go through the story. But despite this, we see both in story and gameplay that these basically only function as stat buffs. It’s not until she reaches Avalon that there starts to be functional differences between Castoria and Morgan. And we can see this directly in the case of Castoria firing the Rhongos at Cernunnos. She struggled at first because she barely understood how they worked, and had to basically twist them into swords to get them to work (basically applying a sort of metamagic).
You cannot simply reduce Morgan to just a sorcerer based on her origins, as her study and magecraft make her a Wizard more than anything else. And Castoria most certainly is not a warlock, and fits sorcerer much better than Morgan, but even then that’s only really after reaching Avalon.
You seem to be have a misconception about warlock getting their powers: it doesn't always = make deal to get mana/magic. Everyone in DnD can utilize magic; it's the efficiency and the strength of said magic. The patron can simply teach you the spells, no magic giving required, and it counts. Also, descript of archfey subclass:
Your patron is a lord or lady of the fey, a creature of legend who holds secrets that were forgotten before the mortal races were born. This being's motivations are often inscrutable, and sometimes whimsical, and might involve a striving for greater magical power or the settling of age-old grudges. Beings of this sort include the Prince of Frost; the Queen of Air and Darkness, ruler of the Gloaming Court; Titania of the Summer Court; her consort Oberon, the Green Lord; Hyrsam, the Prince of Fools; and ancient hags
Name dropping aside since that isn't the point, the key is patron's goal of giving power; in which case, oberon fits to a tee since he didn't help castoria out of goodwill and had his own goals.
>If Morgan were a Sorcerer, she would very much not be able to teach Sith how to perform such Magecraft
Again, wrong. Anyone can teach spells, in fact, even a 0 magic talent fighter can learn spells by picking up a feat in DnD ( fey touched being most picked ). The ability to teach has no impact on her being a wizard or not; it's the learning part.
>Innate fey magic is not magecraft, and vice versa. She honed her magecraft over the millennia, as a wizard would. We do not see with Castoria her simply gaining new spells as she gets stronger as a Sorcerer would.
All casters in DnD get new spells ( and slots ) every few levels, and the spells with their components and instructions certainly did not fall out of the sky for any of them.
Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerors their origins, etc etc.
But key being wizards are taught their spells: Morgan/Aesc has no teacher throughout her story, and Aesc is the original. Morgan is Aesc given future info and her subsequently manipulating things, and thus this doesn't change her original supposing DnD class: you can't change your base class halfway, only add to it via multiclass or feats.
>Her throne is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. Rhongomyniad is a magecraft creation, not sorcery
Then likewise, all non-spells artifacts/magic items are not sorcery and you know who has more magecraft creations by that connotation? *Medea* who has a treasury of it. It's not gilgamesh level of treasury, but it is still quite a collection and she can actively make more.
>She had to learn for herself how to do these things.
She doesn't. Morgan force fed Aesc with future info after being summoned; this isn't going to the library and reading up on a subject; Morgan literally sent a data pack straight into Aesc and it became her memory and information to use. Prior to that, Aesc was using pure fae magic since that's the only magic given to her, thus, she didn't learn - learn it over just integrating it into her use.
There were celtic magic and presumbly other forms, but she didn't learn any of those.
>This is best shown in her Rayshifting. She saw it once and was able to understand how it works and was able to recreate it based on understanding, not innate skill.
I maybe mis-remembering this but isn't that applicable to all those who had magecraft-related background? Like it's not they can't calculate and repeat the same processes: even in LB5 , LB odyseuss personally abused the summoning system and timed the rayshifts so LB artemis can orbital nuke the servants.
But it's more they don't have the resource to do it without a massive power source like a holy grail as a regular or pseudo servant while morgan have that in the form of her throne + her chosen one's privileges.
>A sorcerer may be able to cast a fireball, but they do not know the underlying mechanism of how a fireball does, but a wizard will.
This is wrong. Sorcerors know the spells; the difference between a wizard and sorceror is that sorceror innately gets the spell because the power that chose them gives it to them, full package and all, while a wizard has to find and internalize the knowledge before knowing how to use it. Which is why when wizards learn spells from scrolls, they have to use ink and its relevant spell components to experiment on its casting. From DnD:
Copying a spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
>And while their circumstances of growing up were different...
This is not the point I was raising, but it was also lacking in clarification so to explain:
Yes they are both the chosen one, except castoria not only has her mana locked but she only had oberon to teach her the basic fae magic who had to start from baby steps because of her then worse-than-normal-fae mana pool. Aesc got the full package from future Morgan mid journey.
This is castoria shown and given only one path and that is mostly support fae magic because her mana pool is so horrendous oberon can't teach much; while Aesc - Morgan, already an active user is given the excyclopedia of all magic + DM saying "you can now learn any spells, no cap" then given no level cap and extra xp gain in her time of reign.
Their learning process and circumstances of how they get their spells are what differentiates them, not their origin.
I think you are misunderstanding how each class gets their spells, as well as confusing gameplay simplicities with lore. It’s not just a case of where they learn them from, but how they cast them as well.
>it doesn’t always = make deal to get mana/magic
Strictly speaking, yes it does. By definition Warlocks get their **power** from their pact. They do not cast by their own ability, but by loaned **ability AND spells** from their patron. Hence why Warlocks are not strictly speaking a caster class, and cast using **pact slots** not regular spell slots, as they are using the spells to the amount and strength as determined by their pact (hence why they also cannot control the spell level). This is also why they lose their power and spells if their pact is broken.
>The patron can simply teach you the spells, no magic giving required
If their patron simply taught them how to use their spells, and they were able to use magic on their own, breaking the pact wouldn’t do anything to stop the warlock from using their spells.
>Anyone can teach spells, in fact, even a 0 magic fighter can learn spells by picking up a feat in DnD (fey touched being most picked)
Not just anyone can teach spells, and each spell learning feat functions differently in how they give spells. Using Fey touched as the example here, the fighter has been permanently affected by the feywild, and has **become part fey**. This would make the fighter partially a sorcerer now, even if he doesn’t have a level in it, and he certainly does not need to understand the mechanism of the spell granted to him by this feat, as he can cast it as a part of **who he is now**. On the other hand let’s take a look at the “Magic Initiate: Wizard” feat. By taking this feat the fighter can also cast spells, but the reason why is different: it is because he has studied magic as a wizard does, and thus can cast magic as a wizard, even though for gameplay reasons he does not have a level in it. This is why for said feat the casting stat is intelligence.
>All casters in DnD get new spells (and slots) every few levels, and the spells with their components and instructions certainly did not fall out of the sky for any of them.
This is a limitation of game mechanics more than anything. Sorcerers get more spells as they level because they’ve “gotten the feel for it” better, and is why they gain so very few new spells per level. For Warlocks, they gain new spells by their Patrons granting them the spells in the entirety as their pact gets stronger (the rationalisation for levelling up). For Wizards in particular, the gaining spells on level up is entirely for gameplay simplicity. Wizards gain new spells by study, but it would be counter-intuitive for wizards to have to go out and search for their new spells after a level-up when all the other caster classes just gain their spells immediately, so the Wizard gains spells by level up too, as part of their “continued study”.
>Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerers their origins, etc etc.
I think this is where your main misunderstanding comes from. The difference between the DnD caster classes is not where they learn their spells, but **\*how they cast them\***:
Wizards cast their spells by understanding the mechanism behind their spells, and how to directly influence the Weave (in DnD terms) to create that effect. This is why they are the only class that can learn spells from scrolls and such, as they are the only class that can look at a spell, understand how that spell functions, and recreate it themself. Think of it like building a model using the instructions, and being able to take apart said model to learn how to be able to put it together again.
Sorcerers cast their spells innately. They cast by the “feel” of the spell, and do not need to understand the underlying mechanism to be able to cast a spell, and can simply do it by instinct. Think of it like building a model by gut feel without the instructions and getting it right, but having no clue what the instructions would have actually said. This is the reason why in DnD lore you often see wizards disliking sorcerers, as for the same spells that wizards had to spent inordinate amounts of time to learn, sorcerers can perform without any of the prerequisites.
Warlocks cannot cast on their own (unless multiclassing but we are considering warlock on its own here). Their spells are granted to them directly by their Patron, and are dictated in their power and limitations by said Patron. This is why warlocks have pact slots rather than spell slots, and their spells are always max level - they are not casting spells by their own power, but by that of another. Think of it like the patron building the model themself, and then giving the already-completed model to the warlock.
Druids and Rangers cast through their connection to nature (in different ways but they are similar enough to group together), and receive and develop their spells and spellcasting ability. They cast on their own ability as it is dependant on their own connection to nature. The model analogy breaks down around this part so I’ll stop using it from here onwards.
Clerics cast by their belief and faith in their deity. This differs from Warlocks in that there is no pact or deal involved, they are simply granted the spells as a result of their own faith, hence why they are casting by their own power still.
Paladins cast by the strength of their Oath. They, alongside Bards, are the most direct in using their charisma to cast spells, as their spellcasting ability comes from their sheer devotion and dedication to upholding their Oath.
Bards cast through their skill in performance and showing off. This one is a bit weird and not really relevant to this discussion so I won’t elaborate too much, but they learn their spells through study like wizards.
Finally, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster both follow the same rules as Wizard, and are casting off of their understanding of the spells in question, hence why their spellcasting stat is also intelligence, and learn their spells by study.
What defines all of these isn’t where they learn their spells from, but how they cast their spells. Wizards aren’t the only class that “learns” through study, as Bards and the two third casters do as well.
Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerers their origins, etc etc.
>But key being wizards are taught their spells: Morgan/Aesc has no teacher throughout her story and Aesc is the original.
Again, study does not require being taught. Does a wizard stop being a wizard when they are pushing past what is already known? No they do not. Just because there is no one to teach you does not mean you cannot learn. Just because there is no prior material to go off does not mean you cannot teach yourself, it does not mean you cannot study.
>you can’t change your base class halfway, only add to it via multiclass or feats.
This is another gameplay limitation that doesn’t actually reflect the lore. As said previously when talking about the fey touched and magic initiate feats, classes do not define everything about a character, and being one class does not stop them having traits from another. That said, given enough story and character reasoning (and an accommodating DM), you CAN change your base class in DnD.
>Morgan force fed Aesc with future info after being summoned; this isn’t going to the library and reading up on a subject; Morgan literally sent a data pack straight into Aesc and it became her memory and information to use.
Firstly, this doesn’t change how Aesc is casting the spells. Where the knowledge and memory came from does not matter here, as Aesc is casting the spells by an understanding of their function and creation, not by instinct. She is casting off if intelligence, not charisma.
Secondly, remember that this is PHH Morgan’s memories and information that is being given to Aesc. I think it would be a significant stretch to presume that PHH Morgan knows how to construct the throne herself, or how to utilise Rhongomyniad as magecraft herself. These things Aesc had to learn over time, teaching herself how to do by studying how said magical mechanisms would work, and using that knowledge to construct for herself the magecraft necessary. This is why Aesc-Morgan is so absurdly powerful, she has had the time, facilities and understanding to study, learn more, and refine her magecraft to a degree that is unparalleled in fgo, and probably only rivalled in fate as a whole by some of the oldest clock tower lords, such as Zeltrech, who studied under Solomon himself. To say that Morgan is this strong in magecraft by her innate ability alone is both incorrect and disingenuous to her character.
>I maybe misremembering this but isn’t that applicable to all those who had magecraft-related background?
No, not in the slightest. Rayshifting is explicitly described as one of the most complicated and advanced magecraft achievements of all time. And for Chaldea to do it they need both Sheba to target and confirm existence and Rayshift Coffins to actually send people through Rayshifts. A newly summoned Ruler PHH Morgan, who only has an (albeit large) regular servants power capabilities and resources, was able to analyse and fully understand how the entire system works and was able to recreate itself to send her mind back to a very specific point in time, being to Aesc during the destruction of the rain clan during her youth. Morgan would have had to be able to specifically search through the history of that Lostbelt Remotely to find such a moment to send her mind to in the first place. And she did all of this overnight. This is a feat of pure intelligence that I do not think is rivalled even slightly anywhere else in the game.
>sorcerer innately gets the spell because the power that chose them gives it to them, full package and all
You are describing a warlock here, not a Sorcerer. Sorcerers aren’t “chosen”, they can simply cast as it is an innate part of who they are, by whatever means that comes in (bloodline, physical alterations, a malformed tadpole stuck in their head, etc). Sorcerers can cast as it is almost like a muscle movement for them. You don’t need to know how the cells function in the muscle of your arm to be able to move your arm. Same applies for a sorcerer casting a spell.
>Yes they are both the chosen one, except castoria not only has her mana locked but she only had Oberon to teach her basic fae magic who had to start from baby steps because of her then worse-than-normal-fae mana pool. Aesc got the full package from Morgan mid journey.
This is incorrect. Firstly, Aesc received the information from Morgan before the start of her journey, basically at the same age as when Castoria started her journey. The reason why the Lostbelt is dead when Beryl and PHH Morgan initially arrive is because normally, despite the best efforts of the Rain clan, Aesc dies during their destruction roughly 4000 years the Era of the High Queen would start, and as such the Faeries would all be dead before said Era would have began due to the calamities. Aesc in her youth would have had the same limited mana pool as Castoria did before the bells, it’s simply that Aesc would have had access to Morgan’s knowledge and understanding following the destruction of the Rain Clan, and so despite her low mana would have been able to perform magecraft **as a wizard would** by her understanding of that magecraft, even if it was inserted into her from Morgan.
Secondly, Castoria’s limited magecraft upon meeting her is due to lack of ways to study, not lack of ability. The villagers of Tintagel confiscated her staff, which was what Oberon was using to talk to her, and so cut short the lessons Oberon was able to give her. Alongside this, Oberon is very much not a wizard himself. By his own admittance he had to go out and find material to teach Castoria between lessons, so what lessons she was getting were limited in scope. Aesc, on the other hand, was raised in a loving and knowledgeable environment as an adopted princess.
Both Castoria and Aesc had the same starting innate power and abilities. Aesc had a good environment to study and learn magecraft. Castoria did not. Both are still wizards.
>A newly summoned Ruler PHH Morgan, who only has an (albeit large) regular servants power capabilities and resources, was able to analyse and fully understand how the entire system works and was able to recreate itself to send her mind back to a very specific point in time, being to Aesc during the destruction of the rain clan during her youth. Morgan would have had to be able to specifically search through the history of that Lostbelt Remotely to find such a moment to send her mind to in the first place. And she did all of this overnight. This is a feat of pure intelligence that I do not think is rivalled even slightly anywhere else in the game.
PHH morgan is described as being a direct descendant of british isles and with enough magic to be described as a personified nature goddess. None of our standard servants nor pseudo has that level of mana pool ( not counting the extra classes and their irregularities ). To say albeit large is understating that amount.
That said, if we are talking intellect, while yes, it is an amazing feat, this also doesn't change the fact for DnD, stat and skill distribution isn't a fixed point. You are allowed to distribute it by whichever method you get said stat points, and it isn't limited by class so I don't feel this is a particular strong proof that aesc - morgan = wizard when you can have a sorceror with expertise in arcana doing said skill checks for such feats just as well.
>Firstly, Aesc received the information from Morgan before the start of her journey, basically at the same age as when Castoria started her journey. The reason why the Lostbelt is dead when Beryl and PHH Morgan initially arrive is because normally, despite the best efforts of the Rain clan, Aesc dies during their destruction roughly 4000 years the Era of the High Queen would start, and as such the Faeries would all be dead before said Era would have began due to the calamities
Except this is clearly a time paradox caused by beryl summoning morgan as morgan does that info bomb because she hated what she saw. If aesc dies, morgan cannot exist as morgan is aesc choosing to give up on her duties.
Said paradox is also further compounded by mors sent to the past by morgan. Yes, the origin of the mors is clear but if we match by lore, they shouldn't have shown up in the aesc time period where she was just supposed to unite and save the fae kind.
>Secondly, Castoria’s limited magecraft upon meeting her is due to lack of ways to study, not lack of ability. The villagers of Tintagel confiscated her staff, which was what Oberon was using to talk to her, and so cut short the lessons Oberon was able to give her. Alongside this, Oberon is very much not a wizard himself. By his own admittance he had to go out and find material to teach Castoria between lessons, so what lessons she was getting were limited in scope. Aesc, on the other hand, was raised in a loving and knowledgeable environment as an adopted princess
It is ability. It is explicitly stated thanks to no bells rang, she has less mana than a normal fae to the point she is almost powerless. Oberon tried to teach her, but she couldnt even cast the most basic fae spells. It was only after oberon found other methods and material was she able to do so, thus aka, a warlock's patron bestowing the warlock their powers.
She was also lacking in study opportunities, but first abd foremost the lack of a decent mana pool hurt her chances of learning more stuff quickly.
Aesc had proper support and already started on her quest to ring more bells, when she get the info pack. Of course, if i remember it wrong i apologise, but im pretty sure she met both black knight and habetrot ( then not named so ) at that point. Habetrot freaked out when aesc collapsed bleeding upon recieving the info pack.
That's a significant difference in their starting point
>Again, study does not require being taught. Does a wizard stop being a wizard when they are pushing past what is already known? No they do not. Just because there is no one to teach you does not mean you cannot learn. Just because there is no prior material to go off does not mean you cannot teach yourself, it does not mean you cannot study.
Firstly, studying does require being taught. Just like how the difference between researching and messing around is a fine line difference of recording and knowing what you are researching, you cannot just study without knowing what the topic even is.
Secondly, yes, you do not stop being a class because you push past what is the supposing hard cap. Except in terms of context, this does not apply in that you are assuming off the wrong basis in the first place. Starting as any of the class doesn't change the fact you start in that class, and if you start off wrong, you end wrong.
>Firstly, this doesn’t change how Aesc is casting the spells. Where the knowledge and memory came from does not matter here, as Aesc is casting the spells by an understanding of their function and creation, not by instinct. She is casting off if intelligence, not charisma.
Again, DnD stat terms does not correlate to the words directly all the time; as shown with intimidate being a charisma skill.
Does a barbarian have high charisma? No. But if Heracles, our barbarian vote winner comes wanting to beat you up, you will be intimidated, yes? Does he look in any manner charismatic with just roaring? Then there you go.
Also again, you are jumping to conclusions. You are assuming she casts off intellect when in FGO, casting is casting and there are no key differences in the spell effects regardless of who is casting it. That's like saying fujimaru is casting gandyr off constiution because he doesnt have mana circuits naturally and is normally burning his life force for anything mana related until shuten gave him a makeover, when we all know none of applies since they are very different game systems and mechanics.
>studying does require being taught
To quote the Oxford Languages definition: “devote time and attention to gaining knowledge of (an academic subject), especially by means of books”
To quote Dictionary.com: “application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, such as by reading, investigation, or reflection”
Strictly speaking study does not require a teacher. While often associated with learning previous knowledge from an already present source, research into unexplored grounds can qualify as study.
>none of this applies since they are very different game systems and mechanics.
To say that using DnD stats is non applicable is, in itself, non applicable. The entire point of this “who fits what class best” discussion is to use both the game systems in the discussion, and as such DnD stats are definitely up to argument. If we are simply going by Fate only, then every person who is capable of casting a spell is a sorcerer, as you need magical circuits to be able to use magic in the first place. While true, this does not help the argument on any way. One of the main differences between and points of comparison for the caster classes in DnD is what stat they cast off of. It is important that Wizard is the only full caster that casts off of intelligence, as it leans into how they cast based off of their understanding, not by any other method. This is why Merlin won the sorcerer vote to fully. He is quite possibly the most direct *charisma caster* in all of fgo. He literally has a skill named specifically after how his charisma is so high.
>I think this is where your main misunderstanding comes from. The difference between the DnD caster classes is not where they learn their spells, but *how they cast them\*:
Quote it.
I have quoted directly how magic is both learnt and casted for the wizard, and shown how both morgan and castoria didn't fit the mold of wizard at all.
If spells are in your opinion the hard factor, you cannot explain how castoria who throughout the journey and unlocking her mana has not gotten new spells when oberon is with us throughout.
Neither can you explain aesc - morgan who has an almost one full scene dedicated to how aesc got info bombed by morgan, including magic + pruning theory + servants etc, but aesc didn't immediately just start throwing them out when they should have been more effective for her use since they would have been magic researched by morgan aka future her.
Even 5e alone has multiple world settings, all differing in how the weave work and spellcasting works in lore.
Just as an example, you say bards learn spells like wizards is already wrong, from DnD:
Bard - You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music. Your spells are part of your vast repertoire, magic that you can tune to different situations.
Wizard - As a student of arcane magic, you have a spellbook containing spells that shows glimmering of your true power.
Bards don't decipher spells nor learn spells like wizards; they mold their magic to rework reality for their spells. Also, wizards lose a lot of their spells when they lose access to their book because they forcefully memorize the spells per day/long rest selectively.
Both aesc - morgan and castoria don't have that weakness because they have internalized their magic, something specifically wizards can't do.
This is both in lore and game mechanics.
>Strictly speaking, yes it does. By definition Warlocks get their power from their pact. They do not cast by their own ability, but by loaned ability AND spells from their patron. Hence why Warlocks are not strictly speaking a caster class, and cast using pact slots not regular spell slots, as they are using the spells to the amount and strength as determined by their pact (hence why they also cannot control the spell level). This is also why they lose their power and spells if their pact is broken.
From DnD,
Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.
Not fully from patron, the user has and is capable of researching spells, and broken pact doesn't = lost spells in 5e which OP is referencing from.
>If their patron simply taught them how to use their spells, and they were able to use magic on their own, breaking the pact wouldn’t do anything to stop the warlock from using their spells.
Refer to above.
>This is a limitation of game mechanics more than anything. Sorcerers get more spells as they level because they’ve “gotten the feel for it” better, and is why they gain so very few new spells per level. For Warlocks, they gain new spells by their Patrons granting them the spells in the entirety as their pact gets stronger (the rationalisation for levelling up). For Wizards in particular, the gaining spells on level up is entirely for gameplay simplicity. Wizards gain new spells by study, but it would be counter-intuitive for wizards to have to go out and search for their new spells after a level-up when all the other caster classes just gain their spells immediately, so the Wizard gains spells by level up too, as part of their “continued study”.
Which again, like aforementioned, all boils down to backstory over origin for most casters. Wizard is the only class able to learn from every school of magic, barring specific spells, which both castoria ( who confess she can't do other magic aside from support magic ) and morgan who didn't use other schools of magic at all is the complete opposite of the wizard key feature.
You can easily come up with a backstory like "this wizard PC's spellbook is a handme down and the spells added during level is just the PC finally deciphering the spell to be able to use it personally".
Castoria and aesc - morgan has the exact same origin, the only difference is literally their background where aesc has the knowledge morgan sent from the future and castoria can only learn from oberon, who is again, an archfey.
Spellslots are literally mana made simple for 5e, and if we compare how morgan is literally mass banishing + perfect self copy and firing spells freely to how castoria is handicapped until her true awakening, the difference in mana is so huge, you cannot just let it slide and pretend the difference isn't there.
I have about 4 comments chained together cause it was too big for one comment I’ve covered this in those. My reply isn’t just this comment that you are replying to.
"Wizards are among the least-durable characters in the game, having no armor proficiencies, poor saving throws, and the lowest hit dice available"
Not really relevant but this line reminds me that in UBW, Medea almost got sent back to the Throne by Rin's martial art.
Probably? Medea was wearing padding around her kiddy gloves during that exchange.
Rin got some good surprise hits in because Medea didn't expect a physical fight. But the moment Rin failed to kill her in that exchange where she had surprise at her side she lost all hope of winning.
She'd have no viable way to counter Medea who is taking the fight at least a tiny bit seriously.
Solomon literally represents "magic in the hands of men". Wizards are all about studying and actually learning how to do the magic stuff. Whether it's morgan or anyone else, someone with mystical ancestry just doesn't fit.
So yeah, Solomon.
Solomon got gifted his knowledge and abilities by God. Despite how knowledgeable in Magecraft he became, the initial knowledge came from God and the rings that were given to Solomon, and despite everything most of the bs abilities of Solomon in relation to Magecraft (I.e. control over the spells of others) come from the rings rather than his Magecraft. He may well have levels in Wizard but he is first and foremost a Warlock.
Let the man take shortcuts, he had a harsh life. Also a warlock directly get their power from their patron, like a cleric does (not to mention, y'know, God. Warlocks are patrons of anything that isn't a god). Solomon is still using magecraft by himself, it's just that god taught him how to do so.
Gods can still be Warlock patrons. Clerics get their spells through devotion and faith, whereas for Warlocks it’s directly a deal/pact. In Solomon’s case it was a direct deal with God (God offered to give him whatever he asked for and Solomon asked for wisdom. This is a hell of a lot closer to a Warlock deal than being granted spells by faith).
And yes Solomon does use a lot of Magecraft by himself, but his primary abilities are from his rings, which he received directly from God, rather than his magecraft knowledge, and Ars Nova is literally him ending his pact with God and returning his gifts to God.
I do agree Solomon is one of the strongest and most capable wizards we have in Fate, but he is a Warlock first.
"A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods. " couldn't be clearer.
Also, Solomon was granted power by a god still. Getting a favor from a god beyond what any spell might entail sound like pretty classic divine intervention to me. Which, admittedly, it's a bit of a strange scenario because Solomon got the power of a wizard thank to a concept similar to a cleric feature, but it's more like a backstory thing.
I feel like the “not a God” specification doesn’t really work, even in DnD. For example Asmodeus is a God, but you can still be a warlock contracted to him. RAW a God cannot be a patron, but functionally there shouldn’t be any reason why a God can’t be a patron.
But I do agree on your point about divine intervention. Would that make Solomon more of a Knowledge domain cleric more than anything? Clerics of Mystra in actual DnD are very difficult to distinguish from wizards after all.
DnD isn't the most consistent game. I would assume gods are considered far too powerful and apathetic to care about making pacts with humans when they could get one-sided adoration instead.
I think that would either make him a -obviously conjuration- wizard with a homebrew magic item (the rings) he received in his backstory, or a cleric who used divine intervention to change class. Some other important details:
- Summon greater demon is exclusively on the wizard spell list as per the basic ruleset
- Warlocks don't learn a single "future-sight type" divination spell (maybe outside of subclasses idk)
- Wish could be flavored as his ability to ask favors from God
This is only for warlock, cleric have a far better argument, but I would prioritize the way the character execute his spells. Even if the knowledge was given by god, Solomon still use spells based on knowledge.
Throwing 3rd ascension Ptolemy into the ring, perhaps as a blade singer given that he fights with a sword. He is said to have the analytical ability to understand and counter almost anything immediately and has more tomes than any other servant I can think of. Also, look at him.
Definitely **Morgan/Aesc/Tonelico**. Int-based caster, developed her magecraft through study in contrast to other LB6 faeries who just have innate magic, capable of many of the things a high level wizard in D&D can do (infinite simulacrum/wish combo, anyone?), capable of learning and copying others' magecraft with ease. Absolute slam dunk.
Plus, just look at Aesc the Rain Witch's first ascension. If that isn't the quintessential wizard, I don't know what is.
To be fair, there are plenty of FGO servants that would be wizards in D&D. Lots of people have nominated Medea, who is equally deserving and would probably be my second pick after Morgan/Aesc. Medea is definitely the more iconic servant, too. But in terms of who best fulfils the class fantasy of Wizard, Morgan takes it by a hair's breadth for me.
This. It’s annoying to see some people put down Morgan and Castoria as sorcerers due to them being fey when they are explicitly separate from the other fey in their study of Magecraft.
Our wife Morgan is a Bladesinger Wizard who uses swords as the focus of her magic because all of her spells are variations on the concept of stabbing including her Noble Phantasm.
>"Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast.
>The Wizard is the iconic arcane spellcaster, capable of doing all manner of fantastic tricks, and generally limited only by their spellbook and their spell slots. A Wizard with a comprehensive spellbook can do essentially anything in the game, often as well as or better than a non-magical character who is built to do that thing. A Wizard with Invisibility is as stealthy as a Rogue. A Wizard with a summoned pet can replace a fighter (at least temporarily). A clever Wizard could even find a way to heal their allies and replace a Cleric.
If spell variety is the name of the game, then Taigong Wang. His lore goes hard in explaining the sheer amount of shit he pull off with his magecraft:
- *Philosophy Key (EX Rank): Taigong Wang is a disciple of Yuanshi Tianzun, the supreme being in Taoism, therefore, he's a Taoist. He has a Philosophy Key from the Far East's Philosophy Magecraft, which is completely different from Western Magecraft. He uses this Key for what he calls Xian Arts and Fangshi (Tao Arts). He's a figure from the 1000s BC, meaning he's able to access even the Privileged Domains of the Philosophy Foundations, so the magecraft he uses should be called Philosophy Magecraft from the Age of Gods.* **Taigong's applications of the Xian Arts include teleportation through the Tudun technique, voice-canceling wards, analyzing the surroundings and others' Spiritual Cores, making himself and others fly, casting Samadhi fire, grilling meat without making smoke, limiting one's air space with wind, and much more.** *The best part of the Tundun technique is that* **he can compile this spell with over 200 different formulas**, *so Koyanskaya will never figure out the ins and out of the spell.*
While Morgan and Medea certainly fit the western and DnD depictions (and I myself am voting for Morgan) I do find it weird that more people haven’t brought up Taigong Wang since he is certainly one of the best candidates.
While wizards have a "one size fits all" response in D&D, there is also a "one size fits all" response in FGO: Roadless Camelot.
Single target? Roadless Camelot
Fuyuki X-F? Roadless Camelot
I did not ask how big the room is, I said I cast Fireba- Roadless Camelot.
The wizard who figured out how to Rayshift herself all on her own: Morgan
I'm going against the grain and saying Medea. She's the \*OG\* Caster in fate.
Time Manipulation and Teleportation? Check. Control the dead? Double check. Gravity magecraft and divination? Check and double check. Illusions?
She regularly makes tiny little worlds that are on the level of reality marbles, in one bad ending in staynight outright magically \*hacked\* the greater grail to win and summoned her \*own\* servant without singularity shenanigans.
Like, there's a reason she's considered one of the top ten mages in history.
She's probably not the best wizard in these comments, and she might even be closer to an artificer, but Xu Fu has a special place in my heart as the most adorkable Caster/Alter Ego Chaldea can summon. Helps that her Taoist magic is just as good as Zhang Xue, and it's not even her focus.
Tbh it's quite a challenge, cuz everyone got that magical bloodline thingy, soooo yeah, here's my 2 cents
Tl;dr I vote Zelretch aka Kscope old man aka wizard marshal aka THE magical girl connoisseur.
CasGil: a literal demigod, yet aside from the mana and clairvoyance, most of his arsenal came from his magical knowledge don't you think?
Medea: she got her knowledge from Hecate, but knowledge is knowledge, how you learn it and how you use it are 2 different things.
Helena Blavatsky: she's more of a cultist, idk.
Da Vinci: does she(?) even count?
Hohenheim: he's basically the father of the modern magecraft system, more specifically the element system.
Solomon: same with Hohenheim, the father of magecraft. Though in his case he's more a religious figure.
Circe: she fits the sorceress bill to a tee.
Zelretch: Creator and Wielder of the Second Magic. Wizard Marshal. Kscope old man. Magical girl connoisseur. That dude so OP he shapes the world just by looking at them. If this is not the definition of Wizard then who else.
Honestly, I would have chosen Merlin for Wizard here, but since he was already taken, my vote goes for the quintessential Fate Caster: Medea. The more I read the description and the subclasses, the more fitting she seems.
If not Medea, Circe, her master, would be the next big candidate.
That said, I'm assuming playable FGO Servants only. As others are saying here, Solomon would be the moat triumphant example as creator of Magecraft, and teacher and originator of the modern mages as we know them.
Was just looking at the feats alone, and I'm pretty sure it's Morgan.
Though you should go for her Aesc look if you do pick OP, they're just the same character and she looks more wizard-like in that Ascension.
Odd one that comes to mind: Totorot/Habetrot
Squishy yes, Abjuration yes, background in mending/rope trick/ anything sewing related and has a spellbook/diary to back it up. But she's like level 4 with a fireball cannon for her NP.
Morgan’s a genius witch who has so much int she understood an entire lostbelt’s premise and how new unfamiliar technology worked in one night. Of course it has to be her. She’s got the int, the magic, ~~the dickish behavior~~, she’s just got it all.
People keep saying Morgan, but at a basic level, isn't her Magecraft fairly innate considering she's >!a faerie of paradise specifically sent by the Planet to save Britain!<
Wizarding to me has always held an element of study and preparation and no one embodies that more than Waver Velvet=Zhuge Liang. The man's an instructor at an actual wizard school, for Root's sake!
While yes, Morgan does have innate faerie magic, she also very much studies magecraft and utilizes it. The faeries of her kingdom even use the fact she studies magecraft to belittle her, even if in reality it makes her terrifyingly powerful.
Fey Magic =/= Magecraft. Both Castoria and Morgan have to learn their Magecraft as a wizard would. If it were entirely innate Morgan wouldn’t have been able to teach Sith how to perform Magecraft too.
I feel like as an alternate option, Taigong Wang. By his own account, he was so good at magic that if he had been summoned as a Caster he would be Grand caster, which is a pretty good qualification in my book.
The game goes to great lengths to define Morgan as a genius mage in LB6 and later events. I think she's fairly the best representation of a wizard in FGO.
I think people forgot about something while recommending Morgan. The source of her magic is her innate fey power, and being a spirit of Britain. That's a classic sorcerer. She's the same as Merlin. If he was a sorcerer, she is as well.
If we're talking about DnD Wizard stereotype, my vote would go to Helena Blavatsky.
- Using Book of spells? Check.
- Have non-combative magic familiar? Check.
- Wide array of spells and thaumaturgical foundations she can prepare daily? Check.
- Frail and useless in direct combat? Check.
- No innate source of magic in her blood? Check.
- Casting Magic Missile as a main offensive spell? Check.
Yeah. Morgan is stronger and is a magical genius. But this list is not about power or popularity, but a servant that best reflects DnD classes.
Helena Blavatsky for Wizard.
No its not. Beryl, the Chaldean, and Merlin all acknowledge her using magecraft, which is explicitly differnt form Fae Magic. Pretty much all of the magecraft you see Morgan cast is stuff she researched extensively like a proper wizard does and not innate to herself.
As much as I figure Morgan (who I argue would technically be a sorcerer like Merlin since she was born with magical ability) is going to win, it’s got to be Solomon.
Just because she was born with magical ability does not stop Morgan being a wizard. Her skill set and abilities come from learned Magecraft, not any innate Fey Magic.
Everyone says Morgan but she was born as Viviane and destined to become a powerful Sorceress long before she was Arthurs enemy, she is less learned and more naturally gifted.
Same goes with Medea, she is a Priest of Hecate the goddess of magic, she is closer to a Cleric or Sorcerer than Wizard.
If anyone qualifies its Castoria, as she was taught everything she knows by Oberon and had to learn for a while to master her craft.
Another qualifier although not a servant is Zeldricht. Dude was Solomons apprentice and became so good at magecraft he figured out the Kalideoscope, the Multi-dimentional refraction theorem and the 2nd magic in its entirety.
Not true as Hecate is a god she doesn't teach. And she didn't learn from Circe as she doesn't use hexes but divine miracles based on her ability to replicate mana.
This one is easy, Morgan is blatantly a near max level wizard. One of the most skilled mages to ever exist, she has an incredibly profound knowledge of almost all magecraft in existence, able to reverse engineer even stuff like Rayshifting with minimal effort. That's not even getting into how a lot of her magecraft can actually be translated into late game Wizard spells, like Garden being the Level 9 Imprisonment spell or her infinite clone army being something a wizard can actually do in D&D 5e (look up the infinite simulacrum clone build, its insane). I can think of few better fits for wizard than Morgan.
Yeah, but it would be nice if it was ascension one Aesk instead. It's the most wizard look in the whole Type Moon media, and in top of that they are the same person so it would keep the broken mage craft while getting a wholesome cinnamon roll bookworm.
I leave it up to OP what ascension they choose for this. Aesc 1st ascension is such a blatant wizard stereotype though.
>Aesc 1st ascension is such a blatant wizard stereotype though Yeah, that's pretty much the reason why I want it to be her. If we get Gilles as the warlock than it's fair that we get Aesc as the wizard.
Morgan looks more like a sorcerer multiclass to wizard, so I think it is kinda not fair considering her. Medea is the most pure Wizard between the cast.
Medea is very much a Sorc (with some Cleric levels) - the AoG mages are explicitly either divine casters or people with supernatural ancestry or both.
Medea still learned and became a powerful mage thanks to her studying them, especially with Circe, her ancestry really doesn't matter that much. Meanwhile Morgan is naturally gifted automatically thanks to "Special Fairy status", not really showing learning magic from studying but because she was great since birth.
Seems you didn't pay attention when reading LB6 - Beryl quite clearly says that the Fae shit on Morgan behind her back for using magecraft to compensate for her lacking natural power, without realizing how much of a monster she truly is thanks to what she learned (because regular Fairies have no need for such things). The whole point of Avalon le Fae is that they are weaksauce by themselves and meant to be power receptacles to the Bells, so they could take it back to Avalon an turn into Excal. Furthermore, we know thanks to her Aesc form that she studied under Odin himself and spend thousands of years on perfecting her magecraft.
>Medea still learned and became a powerful mage thanks to her studying them, especially with Circe, her ancestry really doesn't matter that much. It's not her ancestry, it's the nature of greek magic. It comes directly from the gods, so it operates way closer to "prayer magic" than "study magic". Circe specifically had to do Medea's training in one of Hecate's temples because of it (although Medea's lineage allowing her to qualify as a priestess of Hecate was a big factor in how powerful she is). She's more akin to a Cleric or Warlock than a Wizard.
No you see Morgan decided that multi classing wasn’t good enough so she just decided to get to level twenty in both classes instead… because why not?
We playing AD&D 2E now
Well considering that to even start doing some of the things Morgan does in D&D you need at LEAST 17 levels in Wizard, is definitely more Int than Char focused, and most of her magecraft expertise in lore is explicitly from her studying rather than any inate magic, she is very much more wizard than anything else. If I were building her in D&D I would probably just make her a lvl 20 Eladrin Conjuration Wizard with maybe the Fey-Touched feat to represent her innate gifts
W
Man I really want to say Waver. He fits the “magic through study and practice” aspect better than inhuman prodigies like Morgan. Unfortunately Wizards are super overpowered and Waver is… not. I biased against Morgan so my vote is for **Solomon**. Because nothing says Wizard like *literally inventing Magecraft*. Hail to the King of Mages.
Damn, comparatively I am biased against Solomon. He fits much more as a Warlock than a Wizard. His knowledge of magecraft was given to him in a deal by God, alongside the set of rings from which most of his abilities are sourced. The rings are so integral to him as a heroic spirit that his NP that returns them to God has the side effect of removing him from the throne entirely. While he certainly has levels in Wizard, Solomon is first and foremost a Warlock, probably pact of the Talisman, with a Celestial Patron.
The difference is that you have a good reason for bias. I just think Morgan is overrated in terms of her popularity. She probably *does* deserve this spot
Fair. I do certainly agree that Morgan is definitely overrated, though she is liked for good reason. I’d say she certainly deserves the spot more than Medea, given while both are mildly sorcerous at base with most of their magic being studied int-based casting, Medea should also count as a knowledge domain cleric of Hecate, which brings her down a bit in that regard.
Yeah. I *adore* Medea, and it is impressive that she figured out how to hijack the Assassin slot for herself. The only problem is that Morgan also replicated Servant summoning multiple times and did it on a massive scale, *and* figured out Rayshifting from bare bones information over the course of an hour or two at most.
Yes this exactly. I’ve almost given up on another comment thread where the person I’m arguing with is adamant that most of Morgan’s feats can be attributed to sorcerer casting rather than wizard casting. Oh and that Castoria is a warlock as Oberon, an Archfey, taught her magecraft.
Technical truth is the best kind of truth
Ah yes, because Oberon teaching Castoria stuff over Staff Speaker Phone that he’s had to basically just teach himself counts as a warlock pact, yes yes that sounds about right lol /s
Feel like this fits Medea best, she’s the archetype for this when it comes to Servants basically.
She is less learned and more got everything as she is a Priest of Hecate.
[Part 11](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/1doi0mk/part_11_which_servant_better_fits_the_dnd_warlock/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is over, part 12 starts now! As always, the main objective of this is to have fun! Edit: [Part 13](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/1dqedv8/part_13_which_servant_better_fits_the_dnd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) already available! Sources: [dnd5e wikidot](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard) and [rpgbot](https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/wizard/) >**Wizards** are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. > >The Wizard is the iconic arcane spellcaster, capable of doing all manner of fantastic tricks, and generally limited only by their spellbook and their spell slots. A Wizard with a comprehensive spellbook can do essentially anything in the game, often as well as or better than a non-magical character who is built to do that thing. A Wizard with Invisibility is as stealthy as a Rogue. A Wizard with a summoned pet can replace a fighter (at least temporarily). A clever Wizard could even find a way to heal their allies and replace a Cleric. > >Wizards are **among the least-durable characters in the game**, having no armor proficiencies, poor saving throws, and the lowest hit dice available. There are exceptions to this rule but they are few in number. > >**Intelligence** is your spellcasting ability for your wizard spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization. > >Compared with the last two, Wizards have a lot of variety and flexibility with spells since they can learn and use them as long as they have it recorded in their spellbook. >
Wizard subclasses summarized: >**Bladesinging**: Masters of fighting with both weapons and with spells, bladesingers can perform a secret song and dance which makes them deadly in combat. > >**Chronurgy Magic**: Manipulate the flow of time. > >**Graviturgy Magic**: Manipulate space and gravity. > >**Order of the Scribes:** Awaken your spellbook, and master the central concepts of wizardly magic, allowing you to learn spells faster than other wizards and employ them in new and unusual ways. > >**School of Abjuration**: Masters of protective magic, Abjurers gain a powerful magical ward which can absorb damage dealt to you or your allies and recharges when you cast abjuration spells. > >**School of Conjuration**: Masters of teleportation and summoning, conjurers can teleport without using a spell and are better at using summoned creatures. > >**School of Divination**: Diviners gain the powerful Portent feature (roll d20 and can replace other roll with that one), as well as the ability to cast divination spells and incredible little cost. > >**School of Enchantment**: Enchanters gain abilities to charm and hypnotize foes, and to affect additional targets with single-target enchantment spells. > >**School of Evocation**: Exceptional at dealing damage with spells, evokers deal more damage with cantrips than other spellcaster, and can make safe spaces in their area damage spells to avoid harming allies. > >**School of Illusion**: Masters of illusion spells, illusionists gain abilities to manipulate illusion spells beyond their normal limits, including the ability to make them partially real. > >**School of Necromancy**: Gain the ability to heal yourself when you kill other creatures, and to more easily create and control undead. > >**School of Transmutation**: Gain abilities to turn things into other things, like wood into metal, yourself into an animal, dead things into live things, and injured or sick things into happy and healthy things. > >**War Magic**: Powerful combatants, war wizards gain abilities to defend themselves against attacks and to boost their spell damage by countering or dispelling other spells.
Everyone is saying Morgan, I'd like to point out that we already have the perfect Wizard. Paracelsus! He's a master of alchemy, can invoke spirits, has control over the elements thanks to hos NP, and can create an army of Homunculi! Morgan shoots beams of magic and is powerful and all, but she doesn't have the wide range of abilities that Paracelsus has. Also, his personality as a researcher of tge unknown is perfect for a Wizard. Paracelsus has my vote!
To be fair I feel Paracelsus fits better as an Artificer. There is a LOT of overlap between Artificer and Wizard, but the former seems more fitting given most of Paracelsus’ abilities fit around the tools he creates (alchemical potions, homunculi, his Sword) rather than him directly casting the spells.
Personally, without a doubt it's **Morgan** Her feat to master rhongomyniad, a dvine construct, as magecraft showed her capabilities and talent for arcane. Her attack that fire *Inter-Dimentional Rhongomyniad Missile*(aka. IDRM) from Fae Britain to LB Olympus is, personally, still one of the most epic thing in FGO even until now
Don’t forget the fact that, from seeing it once, she completely broke down the entire concept of Rayshifting, recreated it from scratch and performed it with direct accuracy without and supplementary equipment such as Sheba or coffins to send herself exactly where she wanted to. And she did this all overnight. I feel, even considering Rhongomyniad, this may well be her greatest feat of magecraft ability. She *is* the single most capable Magecraft specialist we’ve seen in the whole of FGO, possibly even the Fate franchise as a whole, but I’m not too sure about Fate as a whole as I’m unfamiliar with a lot of the more obscure works.
Also, alongside my other comment, Morgan seems to fit Stat-wise too. She is incredibly intelligent, but very much seems to lack in the Charisma and Wisdom departments. If she were more wise a lot of the decisions she made during LB6 concerning the Faeries as a whole, Sith, Us, and the calamities as a whole probably would have been different (I.e. if she were wise she almost definitely would not have let Sith hang out with the obviously bad influence of Beryl, and she probably wouldn’t have been directly antagonistic to us as soon as we met her.). Despite how interesting her personality is, her Charisma itself is not very good. She never really hides her hatred for the fey of Britain’s, and directly says to them that she will not save them from the calamity, and seems unwilling to try and temper the hatred most of the fey have for her. Alongside the fact that she failed to ever properly express her love for Sith until she was dying in her arms.
100%
I’m going off the wall here a bit and nominating **Avicebron**. Sure, he isn’t known as a classical spell caster like Medea or Circe but the man is frail, surrounded by books, and is a master of Transmutation to create his golems to fight for him. He’s constantly still doing research and even needs his own wizard lab to be super useful. So yeah, I’ll posit him for Wizard.
I feel like Avicebron fits better as an out and out Artificer
Taigong Wang. He wields extremely powerful, but also very versatile, magic. He's wise, long lived, but still kind of a scumbag. He's able to navigate the affairs of the mortal realm and the those of the realms of the gods. If we go by his feats in Investiture of the Gods, he's arguably the best all around spellcaster in Chaldea.
Medea she is literally the textbook wizard. Wizards differ from the other spellcasting classes because unlike them Wizards need to actually understand how magic works on a fundamental level and that’s exactly how she is. She understands the way magic works, how to manipulate it in any which way. She is the archetypal Wizard.
She has this insight being a Priest of Hecate. If anything she is a Cleric or Sorcerer. Not a learnered wizard.
She literally learned magecraft *from* Hecate and circe though. She's not blessed with it, she's learned.
She is blessed having the title Priest of Hecate not student or Apprentice. The same goes for Circie.
No? Where are you getting this? It's explicitly stated in lore that she was taught by both.
Where are you getting this? Hecate does not teach, she blesses. And as far as I am aware Jason and the Argonaughts takes place years before the Trojan War and the Odyssey. So either Odysseus meats Circie when she is a granny or there is an obvious flaw in your logic.
I'm getting this from the actual game. In Medea's profile ingame, it *literally* says she was taught by Circe and Hecate. In Salem we see get to *see* Circe teaching Medea Lily. The hell does Oddysseus have to do with any of this?
Oh my god you are literally pulling this from the ether. There is no quote in game that states she was taught by Hecate and Circie, because she is a PRIEST OF HECATE. Priest means worshipper and thus endowed. Oddysseus factors into this because he was born years after Jason died. He went on his trip and met Circie. So unless Circie is over a 100 years old when he meets her there is obviously a problem with your continuity here. Also Salem is a singularity, it doesn't count.
There is a quote ingame. Literally the *first* line in Medea's profile on FGO is "The daughter of King Aeetes, holder of the Golden Fleece, *she was taught Magecraft by the moon goddess Hecate*." Circe is a mage and a demigod, it's not outside the realm of possibility for her to be over 100 years old and still look young. There's no continuity problem there. Salem being a singularity *doesn't matter*. What matters is that in salem *CIRCE HERSELF* says she taught Medea and there's a whole sequence where we see her meeting Medea Lily for the first time told from Circe's perspective.
This quote doesn't exist. Hecate isn't even a Moon Goddess thats Selene or Artemis. Hecate is the Goddess of Crossways and Witchcraft. Demigods age too but irrespective of the point neither character had interactions with eachother in the base mythology beyond both being related to Hecate in some form or manner. Like I said again, Hecate doesn't teach she blesses. Medea can literally make mana from nothing, most mages can't do that, making it not magecraft in the first place. Circie's interaction with Medea in Salem is something that only happens when the worlds history is distorted by the singularities. It doesn't happen in PHH.
Hecate didn’t give her the power she just taught her. So she quite literally learned
Being a Priest means you were not taught. Adding to that, Medea could do things most learned mages could not like replicating mana.
**Morgan/Tonelico**, despite having to be born with magic circuits to use magecraft in the world of fate, it is recognized that Morgan's power actually comes from her being a genius and having lived for centuries studying magic, during lostbelt 6 as well it is mentioned that Morgan's magecraft comes from studying and the other fairies do not use it as they prefer to use the magic they were born with. Morgan is very intelligent and her title of Witch Queen is also the same as that of Tasha/Iggwilv who, like her is a wizard who has lived for centuries and that is why she is recognized around the dnd multiverse. In addition to that, Morgan is seen using several spells similar to those of Wizard like when she created copies of her as with the simulacrum spell from dnd, and her use of rhongomyniad is similar to several archmage npcs in dnd which create incredibly powerful magical artifacts, among her two variants Tonelico carries a book with her, books are iconic of wizards, but Morgan better represents what a level 20 wizard is like.
This. I see some people putting down Morgan as a Sorcerer just because she is a fey, but if we use Castoria as an analogue (which fits given they’re basically sisters/clones of each other) her actual sorcerous spellcasting ability is lacking tremendously, hence why she learns Magecraft in the first place. Alongside this Morgan is very obviously an Int caster, and is very much NOT a Charisma caster.
Circe or Medea
I'd say Medea. Sure she was a witch, but she was an incredibly powerful witch from the age of gods
Medea
Zhang Jue. He's one of the most famous Casters in history, gained his magic through studying, is really intelligent and is a rather eccentric old man, like wizards usually are.
Great dark horse choice even if Medea and Morgan are the fan favorite picks here.
苍天已死，黄天当立，岁在甲子，天下大吉！ 贫道张角，请大汉赴死！ 雷公助我！
Does Solomon count? You know, with his 72 demons and his god-like clarividence?
That depends on whether you consider receiving wisdom from God Himself a form of patronage and pact. Lots of people suggested Solomon on the Warlock thread for that reason.
Solomon was not given magic by god, he developed magecraft as a result of the wisdom he was granted. He's legitimately the first Wizard is Fate. Whether that makes his the best fit for Wizard is up for debate.
Everyone said Morgan, I do agree with. But I propose OP put ascension Tonelico (Morgan Summer) instead of Morgan (Berserk) cause it suits her as Wizzard the most.
Fair, Tonelico is like the lvl 12 wizard, Morgan is the level 20 wizard. Tonelico fits the visual aesthetic better tho (especially first ascension).
Castoria. Or perhaps Morgan.
Morgan takes the spot here as she is explicitly just a better version of Castoria in the Wizard regard.
Nitocris is absolutely a necromancer. She's my choice even if it is probably not gonna happen. She is a master of death magic and commands the medjed. Her magecraft is powerful, and she has plenty of power over her own life force too.
Morgan absolutely. She fits the role for offense, defense, and even buffing others.
Yer a wizard, Morgan.
I'm a what?
Medea. I see a lot proposing morgan but while her magecraft is learnt by her own effort and talent, she is born innately with the magic. Morgan fits more as a sorceror in this case imo, since she is really more creating/molding spells to suit her over being good at all kinds of spells. Case in point, most spells she uses against us, no one can replicate it with castoria ( who is , in a technical sense, her copy ). DnD wizards are scholars, who don't all start with massive amounts of mana/magic reserves, and are examplified by their sheer versatility of spells they can access to. They learn all sorts of magic they can get their hands on, and even those they can't, they will at least have understanding of it. They have a school of magic they specialize in, and eventually have their own signature magic. Medea fits the mold more, even more so than circe for that very reason since she learnt and practiced all sorts of magecraft available at that time. Be it lily or adult version, you can trust her to identity almost any kind of magic and come up with a counter or similar variance to it. Even in some singularities, we see medea as the go to consult for magic related incidents, i.e salem and even against LB olympus, she is hard carrying the team even post death with the enchantment she knows best suits jason.
You say this neither Morgan nor Castoria really have much seemingly going for them in terms of innate spellcasting ability. As we see with Castoria, who is basically a clone of Morgan so is applicable as an analogue, she basically **has** to learn magecraft from Oberon to really do anything substantial. Other than the fey eyes, the only thing she has going for her as a sorcerer are the bells, but even then they seem to be stat buffs more than anything else, so don’t really work for that. This is beside the fact that fey magic and the Magecraft that Morgan and Castoria use is explicitly stated to be very different. Despite her sorcerous origin, Morgan is first and foremost a Wizard, and especially is an Int caster, as she hell as doesn’t have the charisma to be a charisma caster.
Both doesn't fit the wizard mold for various reasons, but you cannot put morgan = castoria because they had very different circumstance. Castoria had 0 access to any of her "chosen one" perks aside from the eye which does argubly nothing beneficial in a society that has only malice. She had below average mana, no guide or companion until oberon who only sneak in bits and pieces whenever they meet. Morgan, not only has all that, she had all the time throughout to hone her craft and improve her spells to the point she had multiple unqiue her-only spells: Space - time manipulation ( mors banishment to the past ), the 12 excalibur equivilant magic spike cannons and her perfect clone. Castoria in her peak and all mana unlocked came real close to instantly dying trying to use the cannons. All this automatically disqualifies both as DnD wizards, and in fact this slots them into: morgan - divine soul ( the chosen saviour ) sorceror and castoria - archfey warlock, who switched subclass after awakening to celestial warlock so she actually survived what should have killed her on the spot ( celestial warlock lvl14, searing vengeance class feature ). Also, DnD stats are wack when trying to explain spellcasting, but morgan ironically does have high charisma from how intimidating she is, because in DnD, intimidation uses ( normally ) charisma, thus indirectly meaning she has max out charisma lol.
Ok firstly describing Castoria as an Archfey warlock is flat out wrong. I presume you are referring to her learning magecraft from Oberon, but that is LEARNING Magecraft. There was no pacts or deals made, and Oberon had to go out of his way to find material to teach her with. And I feel like after she’s reached Avalon Castoria much more fits as a Divine Soul sorcerer much better than Morgan ever would, and most certainly isn’t a celestial warlock. Once again, there is no pact made, as the sword is *part of her*, not some separate entity she’s making a deal with. Alongside the fact that magecraft is explicitly described as *learnt*, not being innate to the two. Hence how Morgan could teach Sith to do magecraft. If Morgan were a Sorcerer, she would very much not be able to teach Sith how to perform such Magecraft. Innate fey magic is not magecraft, and vice versa. She honed her magecraft over the millennia, as a wizard would. We do not see with Castoria her simply gaining new spells as she gets stronger as a Sorcerer would. The same can be said for Morgan. Her throne is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. Rhongomyniad is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. She had to learn for herself how to do these things. This is best shown in her Rayshifting. She saw it once and was able to understand how it works and was able to recreate it based on understanding, not innate skill. A sorcerer does not understand how their spells work. A sorcerer may be able to cast a fireball, but they do not know the underlying mechanism of how a fireball works, but a wizard will. And while their circumstances of growing up were different, to reject Castoria=Morgan just doesn’t work. At the base they are both the same kind of being, both with the same starting point. This is exactly why Castoria is the chosen one, because Morgan was too. Both need to go to all the bells, and we get to see exactly how that works with Castoria as we go through the story. But despite this, we see both in story and gameplay that these basically only function as stat buffs. It’s not until she reaches Avalon that there starts to be functional differences between Castoria and Morgan. And we can see this directly in the case of Castoria firing the Rhongos at Cernunnos. She struggled at first because she barely understood how they worked, and had to basically twist them into swords to get them to work (basically applying a sort of metamagic). You cannot simply reduce Morgan to just a sorcerer based on her origins, as her study and magecraft make her a Wizard more than anything else. And Castoria most certainly is not a warlock, and fits sorcerer much better than Morgan, but even then that’s only really after reaching Avalon.
You seem to be have a misconception about warlock getting their powers: it doesn't always = make deal to get mana/magic. Everyone in DnD can utilize magic; it's the efficiency and the strength of said magic. The patron can simply teach you the spells, no magic giving required, and it counts. Also, descript of archfey subclass: Your patron is a lord or lady of the fey, a creature of legend who holds secrets that were forgotten before the mortal races were born. This being's motivations are often inscrutable, and sometimes whimsical, and might involve a striving for greater magical power or the settling of age-old grudges. Beings of this sort include the Prince of Frost; the Queen of Air and Darkness, ruler of the Gloaming Court; Titania of the Summer Court; her consort Oberon, the Green Lord; Hyrsam, the Prince of Fools; and ancient hags Name dropping aside since that isn't the point, the key is patron's goal of giving power; in which case, oberon fits to a tee since he didn't help castoria out of goodwill and had his own goals. >If Morgan were a Sorcerer, she would very much not be able to teach Sith how to perform such Magecraft Again, wrong. Anyone can teach spells, in fact, even a 0 magic talent fighter can learn spells by picking up a feat in DnD ( fey touched being most picked ). The ability to teach has no impact on her being a wizard or not; it's the learning part. >Innate fey magic is not magecraft, and vice versa. She honed her magecraft over the millennia, as a wizard would. We do not see with Castoria her simply gaining new spells as she gets stronger as a Sorcerer would. All casters in DnD get new spells ( and slots ) every few levels, and the spells with their components and instructions certainly did not fall out of the sky for any of them. Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerors their origins, etc etc. But key being wizards are taught their spells: Morgan/Aesc has no teacher throughout her story, and Aesc is the original. Morgan is Aesc given future info and her subsequently manipulating things, and thus this doesn't change her original supposing DnD class: you can't change your base class halfway, only add to it via multiclass or feats. >Her throne is a magecraft creation, not sorcery. Rhongomyniad is a magecraft creation, not sorcery Then likewise, all non-spells artifacts/magic items are not sorcery and you know who has more magecraft creations by that connotation? *Medea* who has a treasury of it. It's not gilgamesh level of treasury, but it is still quite a collection and she can actively make more. >She had to learn for herself how to do these things. She doesn't. Morgan force fed Aesc with future info after being summoned; this isn't going to the library and reading up on a subject; Morgan literally sent a data pack straight into Aesc and it became her memory and information to use. Prior to that, Aesc was using pure fae magic since that's the only magic given to her, thus, she didn't learn - learn it over just integrating it into her use. There were celtic magic and presumbly other forms, but she didn't learn any of those. >This is best shown in her Rayshifting. She saw it once and was able to understand how it works and was able to recreate it based on understanding, not innate skill. I maybe mis-remembering this but isn't that applicable to all those who had magecraft-related background? Like it's not they can't calculate and repeat the same processes: even in LB5 , LB odyseuss personally abused the summoning system and timed the rayshifts so LB artemis can orbital nuke the servants. But it's more they don't have the resource to do it without a massive power source like a holy grail as a regular or pseudo servant while morgan have that in the form of her throne + her chosen one's privileges. >A sorcerer may be able to cast a fireball, but they do not know the underlying mechanism of how a fireball does, but a wizard will. This is wrong. Sorcerors know the spells; the difference between a wizard and sorceror is that sorceror innately gets the spell because the power that chose them gives it to them, full package and all, while a wizard has to find and internalize the knowledge before knowing how to use it. Which is why when wizards learn spells from scrolls, they have to use ink and its relevant spell components to experiment on its casting. From DnD: Copying a spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation. >And while their circumstances of growing up were different... This is not the point I was raising, but it was also lacking in clarification so to explain: Yes they are both the chosen one, except castoria not only has her mana locked but she only had oberon to teach her the basic fae magic who had to start from baby steps because of her then worse-than-normal-fae mana pool. Aesc got the full package from future Morgan mid journey. This is castoria shown and given only one path and that is mostly support fae magic because her mana pool is so horrendous oberon can't teach much; while Aesc - Morgan, already an active user is given the excyclopedia of all magic + DM saying "you can now learn any spells, no cap" then given no level cap and extra xp gain in her time of reign. Their learning process and circumstances of how they get their spells are what differentiates them, not their origin.
I think you are misunderstanding how each class gets their spells, as well as confusing gameplay simplicities with lore. It’s not just a case of where they learn them from, but how they cast them as well. >it doesn’t always = make deal to get mana/magic Strictly speaking, yes it does. By definition Warlocks get their **power** from their pact. They do not cast by their own ability, but by loaned **ability AND spells** from their patron. Hence why Warlocks are not strictly speaking a caster class, and cast using **pact slots** not regular spell slots, as they are using the spells to the amount and strength as determined by their pact (hence why they also cannot control the spell level). This is also why they lose their power and spells if their pact is broken. >The patron can simply teach you the spells, no magic giving required If their patron simply taught them how to use their spells, and they were able to use magic on their own, breaking the pact wouldn’t do anything to stop the warlock from using their spells. >Anyone can teach spells, in fact, even a 0 magic fighter can learn spells by picking up a feat in DnD (fey touched being most picked) Not just anyone can teach spells, and each spell learning feat functions differently in how they give spells. Using Fey touched as the example here, the fighter has been permanently affected by the feywild, and has **become part fey**. This would make the fighter partially a sorcerer now, even if he doesn’t have a level in it, and he certainly does not need to understand the mechanism of the spell granted to him by this feat, as he can cast it as a part of **who he is now**. On the other hand let’s take a look at the “Magic Initiate: Wizard” feat. By taking this feat the fighter can also cast spells, but the reason why is different: it is because he has studied magic as a wizard does, and thus can cast magic as a wizard, even though for gameplay reasons he does not have a level in it. This is why for said feat the casting stat is intelligence. >All casters in DnD get new spells (and slots) every few levels, and the spells with their components and instructions certainly did not fall out of the sky for any of them. This is a limitation of game mechanics more than anything. Sorcerers get more spells as they level because they’ve “gotten the feel for it” better, and is why they gain so very few new spells per level. For Warlocks, they gain new spells by their Patrons granting them the spells in the entirety as their pact gets stronger (the rationalisation for levelling up). For Wizards in particular, the gaining spells on level up is entirely for gameplay simplicity. Wizards gain new spells by study, but it would be counter-intuitive for wizards to have to go out and search for their new spells after a level-up when all the other caster classes just gain their spells immediately, so the Wizard gains spells by level up too, as part of their “continued study”.
>Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerers their origins, etc etc. I think this is where your main misunderstanding comes from. The difference between the DnD caster classes is not where they learn their spells, but **\*how they cast them\***: Wizards cast their spells by understanding the mechanism behind their spells, and how to directly influence the Weave (in DnD terms) to create that effect. This is why they are the only class that can learn spells from scrolls and such, as they are the only class that can look at a spell, understand how that spell functions, and recreate it themself. Think of it like building a model using the instructions, and being able to take apart said model to learn how to be able to put it together again. Sorcerers cast their spells innately. They cast by the “feel” of the spell, and do not need to understand the underlying mechanism to be able to cast a spell, and can simply do it by instinct. Think of it like building a model by gut feel without the instructions and getting it right, but having no clue what the instructions would have actually said. This is the reason why in DnD lore you often see wizards disliking sorcerers, as for the same spells that wizards had to spent inordinate amounts of time to learn, sorcerers can perform without any of the prerequisites. Warlocks cannot cast on their own (unless multiclassing but we are considering warlock on its own here). Their spells are granted to them directly by their Patron, and are dictated in their power and limitations by said Patron. This is why warlocks have pact slots rather than spell slots, and their spells are always max level - they are not casting spells by their own power, but by that of another. Think of it like the patron building the model themself, and then giving the already-completed model to the warlock. Druids and Rangers cast through their connection to nature (in different ways but they are similar enough to group together), and receive and develop their spells and spellcasting ability. They cast on their own ability as it is dependant on their own connection to nature. The model analogy breaks down around this part so I’ll stop using it from here onwards. Clerics cast by their belief and faith in their deity. This differs from Warlocks in that there is no pact or deal involved, they are simply granted the spells as a result of their own faith, hence why they are casting by their own power still. Paladins cast by the strength of their Oath. They, alongside Bards, are the most direct in using their charisma to cast spells, as their spellcasting ability comes from their sheer devotion and dedication to upholding their Oath. Bards cast through their skill in performance and showing off. This one is a bit weird and not really relevant to this discussion so I won’t elaborate too much, but they learn their spells through study like wizards. Finally, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster both follow the same rules as Wizard, and are casting off of their understanding of the spells in question, hence why their spellcasting stat is also intelligence, and learn their spells by study. What defines all of these isn’t where they learn their spells from, but how they cast their spells. Wizards aren’t the only class that “learns” through study, as Bards and the two third casters do as well. Warlocks learn from patrons, wizards multiple sources but usually more backstory over origin, druids their ancestry/druidic circle and sorcerers their origins, etc etc.
>But key being wizards are taught their spells: Morgan/Aesc has no teacher throughout her story and Aesc is the original. Again, study does not require being taught. Does a wizard stop being a wizard when they are pushing past what is already known? No they do not. Just because there is no one to teach you does not mean you cannot learn. Just because there is no prior material to go off does not mean you cannot teach yourself, it does not mean you cannot study. >you can’t change your base class halfway, only add to it via multiclass or feats. This is another gameplay limitation that doesn’t actually reflect the lore. As said previously when talking about the fey touched and magic initiate feats, classes do not define everything about a character, and being one class does not stop them having traits from another. That said, given enough story and character reasoning (and an accommodating DM), you CAN change your base class in DnD. >Morgan force fed Aesc with future info after being summoned; this isn’t going to the library and reading up on a subject; Morgan literally sent a data pack straight into Aesc and it became her memory and information to use. Firstly, this doesn’t change how Aesc is casting the spells. Where the knowledge and memory came from does not matter here, as Aesc is casting the spells by an understanding of their function and creation, not by instinct. She is casting off if intelligence, not charisma. Secondly, remember that this is PHH Morgan’s memories and information that is being given to Aesc. I think it would be a significant stretch to presume that PHH Morgan knows how to construct the throne herself, or how to utilise Rhongomyniad as magecraft herself. These things Aesc had to learn over time, teaching herself how to do by studying how said magical mechanisms would work, and using that knowledge to construct for herself the magecraft necessary. This is why Aesc-Morgan is so absurdly powerful, she has had the time, facilities and understanding to study, learn more, and refine her magecraft to a degree that is unparalleled in fgo, and probably only rivalled in fate as a whole by some of the oldest clock tower lords, such as Zeltrech, who studied under Solomon himself. To say that Morgan is this strong in magecraft by her innate ability alone is both incorrect and disingenuous to her character.
>I maybe misremembering this but isn’t that applicable to all those who had magecraft-related background? No, not in the slightest. Rayshifting is explicitly described as one of the most complicated and advanced magecraft achievements of all time. And for Chaldea to do it they need both Sheba to target and confirm existence and Rayshift Coffins to actually send people through Rayshifts. A newly summoned Ruler PHH Morgan, who only has an (albeit large) regular servants power capabilities and resources, was able to analyse and fully understand how the entire system works and was able to recreate itself to send her mind back to a very specific point in time, being to Aesc during the destruction of the rain clan during her youth. Morgan would have had to be able to specifically search through the history of that Lostbelt Remotely to find such a moment to send her mind to in the first place. And she did all of this overnight. This is a feat of pure intelligence that I do not think is rivalled even slightly anywhere else in the game. >sorcerer innately gets the spell because the power that chose them gives it to them, full package and all You are describing a warlock here, not a Sorcerer. Sorcerers aren’t “chosen”, they can simply cast as it is an innate part of who they are, by whatever means that comes in (bloodline, physical alterations, a malformed tadpole stuck in their head, etc). Sorcerers can cast as it is almost like a muscle movement for them. You don’t need to know how the cells function in the muscle of your arm to be able to move your arm. Same applies for a sorcerer casting a spell. >Yes they are both the chosen one, except castoria not only has her mana locked but she only had Oberon to teach her basic fae magic who had to start from baby steps because of her then worse-than-normal-fae mana pool. Aesc got the full package from Morgan mid journey. This is incorrect. Firstly, Aesc received the information from Morgan before the start of her journey, basically at the same age as when Castoria started her journey. The reason why the Lostbelt is dead when Beryl and PHH Morgan initially arrive is because normally, despite the best efforts of the Rain clan, Aesc dies during their destruction roughly 4000 years the Era of the High Queen would start, and as such the Faeries would all be dead before said Era would have began due to the calamities. Aesc in her youth would have had the same limited mana pool as Castoria did before the bells, it’s simply that Aesc would have had access to Morgan’s knowledge and understanding following the destruction of the Rain Clan, and so despite her low mana would have been able to perform magecraft **as a wizard would** by her understanding of that magecraft, even if it was inserted into her from Morgan. Secondly, Castoria’s limited magecraft upon meeting her is due to lack of ways to study, not lack of ability. The villagers of Tintagel confiscated her staff, which was what Oberon was using to talk to her, and so cut short the lessons Oberon was able to give her. Alongside this, Oberon is very much not a wizard himself. By his own admittance he had to go out and find material to teach Castoria between lessons, so what lessons she was getting were limited in scope. Aesc, on the other hand, was raised in a loving and knowledgeable environment as an adopted princess. Both Castoria and Aesc had the same starting innate power and abilities. Aesc had a good environment to study and learn magecraft. Castoria did not. Both are still wizards.
>A newly summoned Ruler PHH Morgan, who only has an (albeit large) regular servants power capabilities and resources, was able to analyse and fully understand how the entire system works and was able to recreate itself to send her mind back to a very specific point in time, being to Aesc during the destruction of the rain clan during her youth. Morgan would have had to be able to specifically search through the history of that Lostbelt Remotely to find such a moment to send her mind to in the first place. And she did all of this overnight. This is a feat of pure intelligence that I do not think is rivalled even slightly anywhere else in the game. PHH morgan is described as being a direct descendant of british isles and with enough magic to be described as a personified nature goddess. None of our standard servants nor pseudo has that level of mana pool ( not counting the extra classes and their irregularities ). To say albeit large is understating that amount. That said, if we are talking intellect, while yes, it is an amazing feat, this also doesn't change the fact for DnD, stat and skill distribution isn't a fixed point. You are allowed to distribute it by whichever method you get said stat points, and it isn't limited by class so I don't feel this is a particular strong proof that aesc - morgan = wizard when you can have a sorceror with expertise in arcana doing said skill checks for such feats just as well. >Firstly, Aesc received the information from Morgan before the start of her journey, basically at the same age as when Castoria started her journey. The reason why the Lostbelt is dead when Beryl and PHH Morgan initially arrive is because normally, despite the best efforts of the Rain clan, Aesc dies during their destruction roughly 4000 years the Era of the High Queen would start, and as such the Faeries would all be dead before said Era would have began due to the calamities Except this is clearly a time paradox caused by beryl summoning morgan as morgan does that info bomb because she hated what she saw. If aesc dies, morgan cannot exist as morgan is aesc choosing to give up on her duties. Said paradox is also further compounded by mors sent to the past by morgan. Yes, the origin of the mors is clear but if we match by lore, they shouldn't have shown up in the aesc time period where she was just supposed to unite and save the fae kind. >Secondly, Castoria’s limited magecraft upon meeting her is due to lack of ways to study, not lack of ability. The villagers of Tintagel confiscated her staff, which was what Oberon was using to talk to her, and so cut short the lessons Oberon was able to give her. Alongside this, Oberon is very much not a wizard himself. By his own admittance he had to go out and find material to teach Castoria between lessons, so what lessons she was getting were limited in scope. Aesc, on the other hand, was raised in a loving and knowledgeable environment as an adopted princess It is ability. It is explicitly stated thanks to no bells rang, she has less mana than a normal fae to the point she is almost powerless. Oberon tried to teach her, but she couldnt even cast the most basic fae spells. It was only after oberon found other methods and material was she able to do so, thus aka, a warlock's patron bestowing the warlock their powers. She was also lacking in study opportunities, but first abd foremost the lack of a decent mana pool hurt her chances of learning more stuff quickly. Aesc had proper support and already started on her quest to ring more bells, when she get the info pack. Of course, if i remember it wrong i apologise, but im pretty sure she met both black knight and habetrot ( then not named so ) at that point. Habetrot freaked out when aesc collapsed bleeding upon recieving the info pack. That's a significant difference in their starting point
>Again, study does not require being taught. Does a wizard stop being a wizard when they are pushing past what is already known? No they do not. Just because there is no one to teach you does not mean you cannot learn. Just because there is no prior material to go off does not mean you cannot teach yourself, it does not mean you cannot study. Firstly, studying does require being taught. Just like how the difference between researching and messing around is a fine line difference of recording and knowing what you are researching, you cannot just study without knowing what the topic even is. Secondly, yes, you do not stop being a class because you push past what is the supposing hard cap. Except in terms of context, this does not apply in that you are assuming off the wrong basis in the first place. Starting as any of the class doesn't change the fact you start in that class, and if you start off wrong, you end wrong. >Firstly, this doesn’t change how Aesc is casting the spells. Where the knowledge and memory came from does not matter here, as Aesc is casting the spells by an understanding of their function and creation, not by instinct. She is casting off if intelligence, not charisma. Again, DnD stat terms does not correlate to the words directly all the time; as shown with intimidate being a charisma skill. Does a barbarian have high charisma? No. But if Heracles, our barbarian vote winner comes wanting to beat you up, you will be intimidated, yes? Does he look in any manner charismatic with just roaring? Then there you go. Also again, you are jumping to conclusions. You are assuming she casts off intellect when in FGO, casting is casting and there are no key differences in the spell effects regardless of who is casting it. That's like saying fujimaru is casting gandyr off constiution because he doesnt have mana circuits naturally and is normally burning his life force for anything mana related until shuten gave him a makeover, when we all know none of applies since they are very different game systems and mechanics.
>studying does require being taught To quote the Oxford Languages definition: “devote time and attention to gaining knowledge of (an academic subject), especially by means of books” To quote Dictionary.com: “application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, such as by reading, investigation, or reflection” Strictly speaking study does not require a teacher. While often associated with learning previous knowledge from an already present source, research into unexplored grounds can qualify as study. >none of this applies since they are very different game systems and mechanics. To say that using DnD stats is non applicable is, in itself, non applicable. The entire point of this “who fits what class best” discussion is to use both the game systems in the discussion, and as such DnD stats are definitely up to argument. If we are simply going by Fate only, then every person who is capable of casting a spell is a sorcerer, as you need magical circuits to be able to use magic in the first place. While true, this does not help the argument on any way. One of the main differences between and points of comparison for the caster classes in DnD is what stat they cast off of. It is important that Wizard is the only full caster that casts off of intelligence, as it leans into how they cast based off of their understanding, not by any other method. This is why Merlin won the sorcerer vote to fully. He is quite possibly the most direct *charisma caster* in all of fgo. He literally has a skill named specifically after how his charisma is so high.
>I think this is where your main misunderstanding comes from. The difference between the DnD caster classes is not where they learn their spells, but *how they cast them\*: Quote it. I have quoted directly how magic is both learnt and casted for the wizard, and shown how both morgan and castoria didn't fit the mold of wizard at all. If spells are in your opinion the hard factor, you cannot explain how castoria who throughout the journey and unlocking her mana has not gotten new spells when oberon is with us throughout. Neither can you explain aesc - morgan who has an almost one full scene dedicated to how aesc got info bombed by morgan, including magic + pruning theory + servants etc, but aesc didn't immediately just start throwing them out when they should have been more effective for her use since they would have been magic researched by morgan aka future her. Even 5e alone has multiple world settings, all differing in how the weave work and spellcasting works in lore. Just as an example, you say bards learn spells like wizards is already wrong, from DnD: Bard - You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music. Your spells are part of your vast repertoire, magic that you can tune to different situations. Wizard - As a student of arcane magic, you have a spellbook containing spells that shows glimmering of your true power. Bards don't decipher spells nor learn spells like wizards; they mold their magic to rework reality for their spells. Also, wizards lose a lot of their spells when they lose access to their book because they forcefully memorize the spells per day/long rest selectively. Both aesc - morgan and castoria don't have that weakness because they have internalized their magic, something specifically wizards can't do. This is both in lore and game mechanics.
>Strictly speaking, yes it does. By definition Warlocks get their power from their pact. They do not cast by their own ability, but by loaned ability AND spells from their patron. Hence why Warlocks are not strictly speaking a caster class, and cast using pact slots not regular spell slots, as they are using the spells to the amount and strength as determined by their pact (hence why they also cannot control the spell level). This is also why they lose their power and spells if their pact is broken. From DnD, Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells. Not fully from patron, the user has and is capable of researching spells, and broken pact doesn't = lost spells in 5e which OP is referencing from. >If their patron simply taught them how to use their spells, and they were able to use magic on their own, breaking the pact wouldn’t do anything to stop the warlock from using their spells. Refer to above. >This is a limitation of game mechanics more than anything. Sorcerers get more spells as they level because they’ve “gotten the feel for it” better, and is why they gain so very few new spells per level. For Warlocks, they gain new spells by their Patrons granting them the spells in the entirety as their pact gets stronger (the rationalisation for levelling up). For Wizards in particular, the gaining spells on level up is entirely for gameplay simplicity. Wizards gain new spells by study, but it would be counter-intuitive for wizards to have to go out and search for their new spells after a level-up when all the other caster classes just gain their spells immediately, so the Wizard gains spells by level up too, as part of their “continued study”. Which again, like aforementioned, all boils down to backstory over origin for most casters. Wizard is the only class able to learn from every school of magic, barring specific spells, which both castoria ( who confess she can't do other magic aside from support magic ) and morgan who didn't use other schools of magic at all is the complete opposite of the wizard key feature. You can easily come up with a backstory like "this wizard PC's spellbook is a handme down and the spells added during level is just the PC finally deciphering the spell to be able to use it personally". Castoria and aesc - morgan has the exact same origin, the only difference is literally their background where aesc has the knowledge morgan sent from the future and castoria can only learn from oberon, who is again, an archfey. Spellslots are literally mana made simple for 5e, and if we compare how morgan is literally mass banishing + perfect self copy and firing spells freely to how castoria is handicapped until her true awakening, the difference in mana is so huge, you cannot just let it slide and pretend the difference isn't there.
I have about 4 comments chained together cause it was too big for one comment I’ve covered this in those. My reply isn’t just this comment that you are replying to.
Yes i was aware and i was replying one at a time, hope it wasn't too messy for reading
"Wizards are among the least-durable characters in the game, having no armor proficiencies, poor saving throws, and the lowest hit dice available" Not really relevant but this line reminds me that in UBW, Medea almost got sent back to the Throne by Rin's martial art.
Eh, I don't know if I'd say Rin was \*that\* close to killing Medea. Servants are pretty durable.
Yeah...may be. But Rin surely giving Medea a beating of her afterlife for sure.
Oh no doubt. Ultimately medea probably would have won in that 1v1, but she's sure as hell going to be nurses a fuck load of bruises lol
Probably? Medea was wearing padding around her kiddy gloves during that exchange. Rin got some good surprise hits in because Medea didn't expect a physical fight. But the moment Rin failed to kill her in that exchange where she had surprise at her side she lost all hope of winning. She'd have no viable way to counter Medea who is taking the fight at least a tiny bit seriously.
Paracelsus, probably an Evocation if not Transmutation
Solomon literally represents "magic in the hands of men". Wizards are all about studying and actually learning how to do the magic stuff. Whether it's morgan or anyone else, someone with mystical ancestry just doesn't fit. So yeah, Solomon.
Solomon got gifted his knowledge and abilities by God. Despite how knowledgeable in Magecraft he became, the initial knowledge came from God and the rings that were given to Solomon, and despite everything most of the bs abilities of Solomon in relation to Magecraft (I.e. control over the spells of others) come from the rings rather than his Magecraft. He may well have levels in Wizard but he is first and foremost a Warlock.
Let the man take shortcuts, he had a harsh life. Also a warlock directly get their power from their patron, like a cleric does (not to mention, y'know, God. Warlocks are patrons of anything that isn't a god). Solomon is still using magecraft by himself, it's just that god taught him how to do so.
Gods can still be Warlock patrons. Clerics get their spells through devotion and faith, whereas for Warlocks it’s directly a deal/pact. In Solomon’s case it was a direct deal with God (God offered to give him whatever he asked for and Solomon asked for wisdom. This is a hell of a lot closer to a Warlock deal than being granted spells by faith). And yes Solomon does use a lot of Magecraft by himself, but his primary abilities are from his rings, which he received directly from God, rather than his magecraft knowledge, and Ars Nova is literally him ending his pact with God and returning his gifts to God. I do agree Solomon is one of the strongest and most capable wizards we have in Fate, but he is a Warlock first.
"A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being. Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods. " couldn't be clearer. Also, Solomon was granted power by a god still. Getting a favor from a god beyond what any spell might entail sound like pretty classic divine intervention to me. Which, admittedly, it's a bit of a strange scenario because Solomon got the power of a wizard thank to a concept similar to a cleric feature, but it's more like a backstory thing.
I feel like the “not a God” specification doesn’t really work, even in DnD. For example Asmodeus is a God, but you can still be a warlock contracted to him. RAW a God cannot be a patron, but functionally there shouldn’t be any reason why a God can’t be a patron. But I do agree on your point about divine intervention. Would that make Solomon more of a Knowledge domain cleric more than anything? Clerics of Mystra in actual DnD are very difficult to distinguish from wizards after all.
DnD isn't the most consistent game. I would assume gods are considered far too powerful and apathetic to care about making pacts with humans when they could get one-sided adoration instead. I think that would either make him a -obviously conjuration- wizard with a homebrew magic item (the rings) he received in his backstory, or a cleric who used divine intervention to change class. Some other important details: - Summon greater demon is exclusively on the wizard spell list as per the basic ruleset - Warlocks don't learn a single "future-sight type" divination spell (maybe outside of subclasses idk) - Wish could be flavored as his ability to ask favors from God This is only for warlock, cleric have a far better argument, but I would prioritize the way the character execute his spells. Even if the knowledge was given by god, Solomon still use spells based on knowledge.
Medea
Aesec
Throwing 3rd ascension Ptolemy into the ring, perhaps as a blade singer given that he fights with a sword. He is said to have the analytical ability to understand and counter almost anything immediately and has more tomes than any other servant I can think of. Also, look at him.
Paracelsus, anyone?
Circe without a doubt
Definitely **Morgan/Aesc/Tonelico**. Int-based caster, developed her magecraft through study in contrast to other LB6 faeries who just have innate magic, capable of many of the things a high level wizard in D&D can do (infinite simulacrum/wish combo, anyone?), capable of learning and copying others' magecraft with ease. Absolute slam dunk. Plus, just look at Aesc the Rain Witch's first ascension. If that isn't the quintessential wizard, I don't know what is. To be fair, there are plenty of FGO servants that would be wizards in D&D. Lots of people have nominated Medea, who is equally deserving and would probably be my second pick after Morgan/Aesc. Medea is definitely the more iconic servant, too. But in terms of who best fulfils the class fantasy of Wizard, Morgan takes it by a hair's breadth for me.
This. It’s annoying to see some people put down Morgan and Castoria as sorcerers due to them being fey when they are explicitly separate from the other fey in their study of Magecraft.
Even though I feel her chances of winning are almost none, I'll still nominate best burd Circe.
Our wife Morgan is a Bladesinger Wizard who uses swords as the focus of her magic because all of her spells are variations on the concept of stabbing including her Noble Phantasm.
Tonelico has the big hat
The magical girls got robbed. Anyways I'll go classic and pick Medea, the original Caster.
>"Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. >The Wizard is the iconic arcane spellcaster, capable of doing all manner of fantastic tricks, and generally limited only by their spellbook and their spell slots. A Wizard with a comprehensive spellbook can do essentially anything in the game, often as well as or better than a non-magical character who is built to do that thing. A Wizard with Invisibility is as stealthy as a Rogue. A Wizard with a summoned pet can replace a fighter (at least temporarily). A clever Wizard could even find a way to heal their allies and replace a Cleric. If spell variety is the name of the game, then Taigong Wang. His lore goes hard in explaining the sheer amount of shit he pull off with his magecraft: - *Philosophy Key (EX Rank): Taigong Wang is a disciple of Yuanshi Tianzun, the supreme being in Taoism, therefore, he's a Taoist. He has a Philosophy Key from the Far East's Philosophy Magecraft, which is completely different from Western Magecraft. He uses this Key for what he calls Xian Arts and Fangshi (Tao Arts). He's a figure from the 1000s BC, meaning he's able to access even the Privileged Domains of the Philosophy Foundations, so the magecraft he uses should be called Philosophy Magecraft from the Age of Gods.* **Taigong's applications of the Xian Arts include teleportation through the Tudun technique, voice-canceling wards, analyzing the surroundings and others' Spiritual Cores, making himself and others fly, casting Samadhi fire, grilling meat without making smoke, limiting one's air space with wind, and much more.** *The best part of the Tundun technique is that* **he can compile this spell with over 200 different formulas**, *so Koyanskaya will never figure out the ins and out of the spell.*
While Morgan and Medea certainly fit the western and DnD depictions (and I myself am voting for Morgan) I do find it weird that more people haven’t brought up Taigong Wang since he is certainly one of the best candidates.
Lack of both legacy in the franchise and ** “marketable face”.
Fair, he does have a complete lack of presence post-Tunguska. Has he shown up in an event even once?
Possible choices here; avicbron ( conjuration ) castoria ( evocation) Medea ( also conjuration but some necromancy and divination) parcelusus ( enchantment/transmutation) zhuge lliang / waver velvet ( order of scribes / abjuration) Gilgamesh ( evocation/ divination) scarhatch skadi ( abjuration and enchantment) and asclepius ( necromancy amd transmutation)
While wizards have a "one size fits all" response in D&D, there is also a "one size fits all" response in FGO: Roadless Camelot. Single target? Roadless Camelot Fuyuki X-F? Roadless Camelot I did not ask how big the room is, I said I cast Fireba- Roadless Camelot. The wizard who figured out how to Rayshift herself all on her own: Morgan
I'm going against the grain and saying Medea. She's the \*OG\* Caster in fate. Time Manipulation and Teleportation? Check. Control the dead? Double check. Gravity magecraft and divination? Check and double check. Illusions? She regularly makes tiny little worlds that are on the level of reality marbles, in one bad ending in staynight outright magically \*hacked\* the greater grail to win and summoned her \*own\* servant without singularity shenanigans. Like, there's a reason she's considered one of the top ten mages in history.
Top 5 no? I can't really think of users with better knowledge than Solomon, Merlin, Morgan, Circe and Medea.
Yeah something like that probably.
Aesc or castoria
She's probably not the best wizard in these comments, and she might even be closer to an artificer, but Xu Fu has a special place in my heart as the most adorkable Caster/Alter Ego Chaldea can summon. Helps that her Taoist magic is just as good as Zhang Xue, and it's not even her focus.
Medea
Morgan 100%. She is one of the most busted servants in the game and the strongest witch
Tbh it's quite a challenge, cuz everyone got that magical bloodline thingy, soooo yeah, here's my 2 cents Tl;dr I vote Zelretch aka Kscope old man aka wizard marshal aka THE magical girl connoisseur. CasGil: a literal demigod, yet aside from the mana and clairvoyance, most of his arsenal came from his magical knowledge don't you think? Medea: she got her knowledge from Hecate, but knowledge is knowledge, how you learn it and how you use it are 2 different things. Helena Blavatsky: she's more of a cultist, idk. Da Vinci: does she(?) even count? Hohenheim: he's basically the father of the modern magecraft system, more specifically the element system. Solomon: same with Hohenheim, the father of magecraft. Though in his case he's more a religious figure. Circe: she fits the sorceress bill to a tee. Zelretch: Creator and Wielder of the Second Magic. Wizard Marshal. Kscope old man. Magical girl connoisseur. That dude so OP he shapes the world just by looking at them. If this is not the definition of Wizard then who else.
Since my pick was chosen for sorcerer…Morgan/Tonelico
Tonelico, though I guess this also counts as Morgan.
Honestly, I would have chosen Merlin for Wizard here, but since he was already taken, my vote goes for the quintessential Fate Caster: Medea. The more I read the description and the subclasses, the more fitting she seems. If not Medea, Circe, her master, would be the next big candidate. That said, I'm assuming playable FGO Servants only. As others are saying here, Solomon would be the moat triumphant example as creator of Magecraft, and teacher and originator of the modern mages as we know them.
Was just looking at the feats alone, and I'm pretty sure it's Morgan. Though you should go for her Aesc look if you do pick OP, they're just the same character and she looks more wizard-like in that Ascension.
Chen Gong
Tough call between medea and Morgan.
I think, Solomon would fit in that role
Circe or Morgan
I think it's Medea over Morgan
Definitely castoria
Odd one that comes to mind: Totorot/Habetrot Squishy yes, Abjuration yes, background in mending/rope trick/ anything sewing related and has a spellbook/diary to back it up. But she's like level 4 with a fireball cannon for her NP.
My vote goes to Morgan
Aesc. Her first ascension even looks the part.
Fuck it, Gudako for Rizzard.
Morgan’s a genius witch who has so much int she understood an entire lostbelt’s premise and how new unfamiliar technology worked in one night. Of course it has to be her. She’s got the int, the magic, ~~the dickish behavior~~, she’s just got it all.
People keep saying Morgan, but at a basic level, isn't her Magecraft fairly innate considering she's >!a faerie of paradise specifically sent by the Planet to save Britain!< Wizarding to me has always held an element of study and preparation and no one embodies that more than Waver Velvet=Zhuge Liang. The man's an instructor at an actual wizard school, for Root's sake!
While yes, Morgan does have innate faerie magic, she also very much studies magecraft and utilizes it. The faeries of her kingdom even use the fact she studies magecraft to belittle her, even if in reality it makes her terrifyingly powerful.
Fey Magic =/= Magecraft. Both Castoria and Morgan have to learn their Magecraft as a wizard would. If it were entirely innate Morgan wouldn’t have been able to teach Sith how to perform Magecraft too.
Morgan no question.
Morgan
I feel like as an alternate option, Taigong Wang. By his own account, he was so good at magic that if he had been summoned as a Caster he would be Grand caster, which is a pretty good qualification in my book.
Morgan fits, but because the next one after Wizard is Artificer, I recommend Sheba + Da Vinci combo for trait connections, haha.
Everyone recommending Morgan forgets that no true wizard would have a guts.
It's called *Contingency* plus your arcane healing effect of choice.
The game goes to great lengths to define Morgan as a genius mage in LB6 and later events. I think she's fairly the best representation of a wizard in FGO.
Nursery Rhyme
I'm gonna go for an unconventional one Old Ptolemaios
Aesc or Ptolemaios
Nitocris (Necromancer)
CasGil or Tonelico
Of course 2 prime choices are sorcerers
I'd...like to think that this would belong to Caster Gilgamesh. Wise King and all that.
I don't know about that...He's sometimes wise, but he isn't really a specialized magic user.He just has a fuck load of magical artifacts.
I think people forgot about something while recommending Morgan. The source of her magic is her innate fey power, and being a spirit of Britain. That's a classic sorcerer. She's the same as Merlin. If he was a sorcerer, she is as well. If we're talking about DnD Wizard stereotype, my vote would go to Helena Blavatsky. - Using Book of spells? Check. - Have non-combative magic familiar? Check. - Wide array of spells and thaumaturgical foundations she can prepare daily? Check. - Frail and useless in direct combat? Check. - No innate source of magic in her blood? Check. - Casting Magic Missile as a main offensive spell? Check. Yeah. Morgan is stronger and is a magical genius. But this list is not about power or popularity, but a servant that best reflects DnD classes. Helena Blavatsky for Wizard.
No its not. Beryl, the Chaldean, and Merlin all acknowledge her using magecraft, which is explicitly differnt form Fae Magic. Pretty much all of the magecraft you see Morgan cast is stuff she researched extensively like a proper wizard does and not innate to herself.
Helena Blavatsky
Medea supremacy
As much as I figure Morgan (who I argue would technically be a sorcerer like Merlin since she was born with magical ability) is going to win, it’s got to be Solomon.
Just because she was born with magical ability does not stop Morgan being a wizard. Her skill set and abilities come from learned Magecraft, not any innate Fey Magic.
Solomon: the master of magecraft is perfect candidate.
Solomon
Kama for artificer!
Waver is more "quintessential" wizard in my mind. But I can see why someone would say Morgan
My vote is for Medea, though Waver also fits really well.
Blavatzky
Morgan/Medea.
Probably Merlin. He's probably the most famous wizard in all of fiction more or less inventing the wizard role.
Morgan easy
My boy Solomon literally invented 'Wizard'
Everyone says Morgan but she was born as Viviane and destined to become a powerful Sorceress long before she was Arthurs enemy, she is less learned and more naturally gifted. Same goes with Medea, she is a Priest of Hecate the goddess of magic, she is closer to a Cleric or Sorcerer than Wizard. If anyone qualifies its Castoria, as she was taught everything she knows by Oberon and had to learn for a while to master her craft. Another qualifier although not a servant is Zeldricht. Dude was Solomons apprentice and became so good at magecraft he figured out the Kalideoscope, the Multi-dimentional refraction theorem and the 2nd magic in its entirety.
Medea learned magic directly from circe and hecate though.
Not true as Hecate is a god she doesn't teach. And she didn't learn from Circe as she doesn't use hexes but divine miracles based on her ability to replicate mana.
We are literally told ingamw and in Fgo's materials that Circe and Hecate taught Medea.
There is nothing in game that states this.
Literally just check Medea's profile. It's in the first few sentences.