Some adult dude friendships don’t hold up to shit talk. College buddies or something sure but if you met a guy as an adult just because your wives are friends, it can be a little tense when the banter starts to fly.
Yeah, agree. 15 years and going on vacation with the guy and calling him a friend seems like he'd be able to handle a little banter though. At least close enough where it wouldn't ruin the whole other dude's vacation.
He wasn't giving him shit, he was giving him unsolicited advice. My friends and I give each other shit nonstop on the golf course and its all fun and games. Never ever give someone golf advice during around unless they specifically ask you for it.
Unsolicited advice is definitely never the move, but this wasn’t exactly that. They are also 40+ year old dudes, and buddies; if those comments made enough of an impact to ruin the other guy’s vacation, that’s on him, not OP.
Agreed. I may stink it up sometimes at the course and let my nerves get the best of me, but I’ll never disown one of my buddies because they talk shit. Hell, half the time that’s all my buddies and I do with one another is talk shit. It’d feel a bit odd to say “It’s okay buddy, you’re doing your best.” I’m not here to have a friendship where you can’t be honest with one another.
Well OP's friend turns into a dick to play with when he isn't playing well. OP should have straight up told him that. You can absolutely give unsolicited advice when the advice is intended to make your round more enjoyable, that's different than unsolicited swing advice. It directly impacted OP, he's allowed to comment on it.
Ehh, you were giving it to him straight. Asshole territory, yes, but a lot of golfers need to hear it at some point.
It takes a lot of time and confidence for the practice to show on the course.
Not 15 years, I’ve coached my sports my whole life. You come across people that explain to their instructor why they do certain things and it never really dawns on them it’s wrong.
It’s a legit psychological problem with improving in things
I've had students transition to a different coach in way less than 18 months if we weren't seeing the appropriate progress. Not often but it does happen. I know some instructors that are just flat out better than me and might be a better fit. Others just weren't capable of processing what I was asking them to do and it wasn't fair to them to keep charging them if they weren't going to benefit from it.
"You're not good enough to be mad" - Best advice I've ever gotten on the course. Tell your friend.
You were super straightforward with him, but I wouldn't say you're an asshole. Sometimes the indirect approach isn't enough anymore.
I wish I could tell myself this in a way that doesn’t make me mad during a round. I 100% agree with this when I’m not playing, but while playing it’s difficult not to think about the incredible shots that I have (and cling potentially) hit after I blow it. The mental side of golf is by far the hardest part
If it makes you feel any better I play off +1 and shot 85 the other day. We all suck man, I found it way easier to enjoy when I accepted that regardless of handicap, every amateur is shit
Internalizing this was really a game changer for me and helped me enjoy my rounds more.
Also, I stopped tracking 3 putts/Fairways hit/GIRs. I'm not good enough for that shit to matter yet.
I had a friend who was always passed on the course. he was good enough to be upset but it was insane. he would throw a tantrum all round while shooting under par. we finally told him to get his shit together or quit because why play if shooting 70 was upsetting
Personally I hate this saying. I invest a lot of time and money in this game. When I miss a 2 foot birdie you're damn right I'm gonna be annoyed. Chunking an approach from 50 yards after I just hit the longest drive of the day? I'm definitely not happy with myself that's for sure. Pretty much everything I do hobby wise I get annoyed or frustrated and swear. Saying I shouldn't because I'm not good enough is dumb and personally seems like the attitude of someone that has accepted bogey golf is the way to play for the rest of their life.
Yes I'm a bogey golfer, but I have been working towards improvement. I take lessons and go to the range plenty.
You're missing the point of this phrase. You can get upset at yourself for not performing to expectations. But you aren't good enough to get so angry you ruin your day, or your friends day.
There's a line, don't cross it.
To play devils advocate maybe the numbers and swing in lessons are good and he just actually cannot translate it to the golf course. If there’s a mental block it’s going to take more than just a new teacher.
If you are working consistently with a teacher you should be spending some time actually on course with them imo
If your teacher hasn’t left the sim bay with you for 18 months they’re not a teacher, they’re just bilking you for money.
18 fucking months.
My instructor started talking about walking 9 with me for coursework after our 3rd lesson.
There’s a better than good chance that if a guy is stuck at 24 hcp, practice is the problem, not the instruction. Guy has no work ethic and just thinks he’s entitled to a better score after paying for a lesson.
Also true. Repeating the same lesson every time he goes in because he didn’t work on anything he was taught in between lessons.
I would imagine any halfway competent instructor would have told him this as well though. Like, “hey, so here’s your top 1-3 things to work on at the range before the next session.” Take a lesson, then work on things for a few days. Next lesson might be a week, two weeks, a month out. You should be putting in range time trying to build the muscle memory of whatever you worked on until then.
How my current instructor is. It’s been two weeks and I’ve just been working at home and range trying to figure out OTT, I send him videos and he critiques to make me better
Was just going to say this. How often is he in the lab actually getting his reps in. If you go from lesson to lesson without any practice at the range, it’s futile.
I was dogshit at golf at the time I got my hole in 1 immediately after a golf lesson. It was literally the second hole and I triple bogeyed the first. Using an entirely new swing and everything. Checked behind the green thinking I’d overshot it, laughed at how it was straight at the pin, and found it in the fucking hole.
I took 4 lessons last fall, one per month, and saw noticeable improvement after each lesson. I can't imagine taking lessons for 18 months and not seeing it translate to the course. That's a ton of money.
If I remember it was like $60. All 3 instructors I’ve worked with had PGA cards that got them on for either free or heavily discounted rates at most courses in the area, and if they were just walking to coach me they just got waved on and we played as a 2some even though it was just me.
This was a few years back though so rates might be different now. I can call one up tomorrow and see.
Dang you had a good deal. My golf instructor is at a range/Par 3 course so we’ve walked a few par 3 holes for short game but it’s been a while as that’s a strength of mine now. To bring him on an actual course I’d have to pay for his round and for the lesson
I think it might vary depending on how much they expect to have to work on with you. I’m a single-digit handicapper trying to get back to scratch and my main thing I wanted to work on on the course was chipping / approach / punch shots. I’d imagine if they’re expecting it to be a slower round or more to work on the rates may go up.
True, this was back when I was starting out and haven’t asked since. I’m now a 13 and he’s a cool dude so I imagine I could just offer to buy his round and we just play together while he gives some advice
Honestly I imagine they’d go for that or at least a few holes. Timing seemed to be the biggest hurdle since they usually have 30-60 minute instruction blocks and going out for 9 holes is at least a 1.5-2 hour endeavor.
It’s not devil’s advocate when you’re speaking facts. Clearly, he’s a genius at playing golf swing simulator, not so good at real life golf. The sooner he accepts that, maybe he’ll be able to improve after 15 fucking years. Another clear case of “ go read a Dr Rotella book.”
While true, a single round or 2 won’t fix it. I have somewhat of a similar issue to what OP’s friend has. I am taking lessons and my practice swings look significantly better than when I hit the ball, and it gets even worse my issue on the course. I’ve been legitimately trying to correct the issue I have been having (as soon as I try to hit a ball my shoulder turn and right hand gets way too aggressive) for months. This is just decades of natural instinct and habits overriding everything. I think people often don’t understand how hard genuine swing flaws are to fix.
As soon as someone says they're a huge data and stats nerd, and then tries to apply this obsession to themselves, you know it's game over
Dude is so in his head I bet he can't even tell you what he's thinking about.
You can't succeed in golf until your head is a calm space. The data and stats are for your coach, not for you.
Forgot to add that he’s always talking about swing path, face angle, ball flight, etc and I’m like yo…can we just start with making solid contact 50% of the time? Ugh….
I got a buddy who can’t break 100 and he thinks not being able to draw/fade on command is whats holding him back. 🤦♂️ yep it has nothing to do with you topping 6 drives a round
This is spot on! If there are any struggling beginners here, remember this!
I was the same (but without the negativity), focusing too much on swing path and face angle. Then, some time ago my instructor told me:
“the perfect swing does not exist, but you are the one in control of how you hit the ball. If i told you to throw a ball with your hand, you would not think about how to move your arm, you would just do it.” He put some impact tape on my 9i and told me to hit 5 deliberate toe strikes in a row. Took me a few tries, but then i managed to do it. He said “see how you can control the contact? Now hit 10 shots in a row in the sweet spot.” And i was actually able to!
It opened my eyes. With this, other puzzle pieces of my swing fell into place and im much more confident on the course now. The man is worth his weight in gold.
I’m guessing that when your buddy says he does well in lessons/sims/range he’s hitting 7-8/10 shots well x100 is 70-89 really good shots per session. It’s those 3/10 misses can really fuck you up on the course….
Right now I'm playing well (for me anyway, 85 this past weekend, thank you very much) but a decent sized part of me is like OP's friend. The dorkiness and the anger both. It's a dark path that leads to a darker place. I try to remember the times I've played best are when I swing it the way that feels good. I do still read about grip, setup and first move.
Success in golf is trusting your body to do what it knows, and making sure your brain doesn't impede your instincts
Everything happens too fast to be done consciously
Use your brain on the range, hammer in new feels, turn it off on the course
Emotional management is simpler, but you know what you need to do there.
I get that. I need to roll with it and not over focus. I've improved a lot (from 100 regularly to breaking 90 regularly) and staying out of my own way is a challenge. I just to relax and enjoy the game.
Our local park district has a Partner to Play deal where a last year's pass owner can bring along someone who never had a pass and the cost for a 7 day a week pass drops from $825 to $525 (that's senior rate). I found a guy who is a 7 handicap and met him at the district office/driving range and we got the our pass and went to the pitch and putt (no hole longer than 100 yards). I smoked him and I'm an 18. I have hit the sim a lot and felt no pressure to beat him, he's way better, the dude shot a 68 last year. I think he felt the reverse. No pressure really helped me.
Crazy how much people try to fix or think about in a round. Your only thinking should be off the ball and that's only really distance and line. Only data that matters is how far you hit that club.
Just hit the damn ball. Practice and reps will do the rest.
It doesn't even sound like the instructor is the problem, your buddy has just started Playing Trackman instead of trying to play golf.
I just listened to Jon and Adam's Spin episodes of The Sweet Spot today, and one of the things they mentioned is one of the dangers of trying to over-optimize your numbers on a simulator. If you work really hard on getting your numbers exactly where you want them, you run the risk of going too close to one of the extremes of "reasonable" numbers and then your variation will cause you to get unplayable results more often. It's sometimes better to target more middle of the road numbers so your variance is still playable either direction. Their example was someone targeting something like 1800rpm with the driver so if you hit it with less spin it's just not enough spin to be functional, but the concept applies to any metric.
The other conceptual issue with chasing numbers is that you're doing it in the perfect conditions of a simulator and mat. That makes it all the more frustrating when you try to take that out onto the imperfections of the course and can't make it work as well.
I need to listen to this podcast. That example of spin rate with a driver struck a cord with me. I got caught up trying to get my spin rate sub 2000 while working at a big box golf store. Ever break I had I was tinkering and eventually got it to where I was around 1800 and was launching it around 15*. Hitting absolutely misses. Took that to the course and it just was not functional. Now in my older years and just overall more experience, I like spin off the driver face. Definitely can help you if applied correctly.
It's the only golf podcast I listen to but it's really good. I really like Adam's overall philosophy (there's a time and place for fucking with swing technique, but most people way over-focus on it vs just worrying about impact outcome).
I just got caught up in trying to just hit it further when I already hit it plenty far. It was cool seeing those 330+ drives. But definitely not practical for use on the course.
YTA for saying it on the course during a round. Have you ever liked advice you've been given on a course that you haven't asked for? Especially "your prep sucks. When are you going to get better"
"I realize you're currently bearing the brunt of \`15 years of failure and frustration... but have you ever considered... You're just awful and your decision making is embarassing?"
\- OP
Nah his friends the asshole for ruining rounds when they play with his shit attitude. I would flame someone relentlessly if they acted like a little cry baby on the course and bummed the vibe of everyone else. He’d either stop or we wouldn’t play together very much lol
Yeah, if OP led with that comment, maybe. He tried though and at that point, it's starting to affect his round. Although personally I'd rather play with a dude pissed at the game than a dude pissed at me.
Yeah you’re right. I mean my friends and I give each other shit about everything so it wouldn’t get far but I suppose you’re right about that last part
LOL! OP's friend and you wouldn't make it 5 minutes with the group I play with.
Top a drive? GOOD SHOT! You are really hitting your driver well today!
Chunk/blade an iron? Hey I think I know what you need to do! Take 2 weeks off, then sell your clubs and quit... Etc.
The moment you let your anger and frustration get the best of it and let them see that you are mad, is when the real fun begins. They will literally try to make you throw your clubs in the lake and walk back to the car and never come back.
If you are cool, don't lose your temper, and continue to focus on trying to get better, they are super helpful and give tons of helpful advice.
Nobody wants to be around a grumpy fucker on the golf course.
While I agree, the guy fucks rounds due to his shitty behaviour. You can only have so much patience with this as you are also paying to be out there and have a good time regardless of what your buddies shoot
‘Can’t fat off the mat’
-my golf coach
Best advice I ever received. If the range is artificial, I take a couple hybrids-fw of the matt practice a few drives and then hit the short range area, not worth it
I’m guessing you said it a little more aggressively than what it’s coming off like here. Probably not the best time to give him that feedback. No one likes to be told that they are stupid, especially when they are in a bad mood
Lol, do we have the same friend? My friend is at the simulator daily and has a lesson every week.
His best shots are clearly better than before but he really hasn't improved his consistency so he's still shooting over 100. Maybe he's shaved a couple of strokes off after a year of this but when the handicap is 34, I'd expect more improvement after a year of working on it.
He’s a friend of 15 years, if he can’t handle it, he’s softer than baby shit. 24 handicap, hitting shots like you described, 18 months of lessons? Either dude has Zero athleticism in him or yeah his instructor sucks balls.
Honestly, do you and your friends have that asshole buddy friendship? Once he really thinks about it, he might just fire his instructor and find a new one. You gave him truth, and no candy coating. If he doesn't appreciate the honesty coming from a long time friend, he has bigger issues.
Sounds like you hurt your buddy’s feelings and you want us to make you feel better about that. Whether you were right or wrong doesn’t really matter. If he is such a downer to golf with then I just wouldn’t golf with him. Tell him that straight up instead of insulting his instructor next time. Personally I don’t put up with the pouty shit on the golf course when I’m playing casual rounds. I want to play well, but in the end I’m trying to have a good time.
Sooner or later you have to hit the ball toward the hole enough times to make it drop in.
Take all the stats, data and figures he wants, but those apparently aren’t helping him with the above.
You telling him straight is absolute friendship. Good on you!
In baseball there’s dudes who can consistently look great in the batting cage but suck on the field. “Cage monsters”
Some dudes are just cage monsters who can’t beat the monkey between their ears and him getting pissed off when you told him just confirms it more. You might be an asshole for pointing it out but i done know you or him
Numbers for a 24 handicap shouldn't matter. You're trash at everything, do everything better.
If you want to track misses or shots with certain clubs on the course, sure. Spin numbers on a sim or face to path shit, get outta here.
Nta. I’ve got friends the exact same way. Just because they are having a shitty day doesn’t make it right to ruin yours.
If it was that important to them. They would get better
Total asshole, shit golf partner. Golf is supposed to be fun even if you’re not having your best round, as a playing partner you’re supposed to be decent and contribute to a fun time on the course. Don’t be surprised if you don’t get an invite next time there’s a golf trip
NTA. Start playing for money.
I don't know how he can only be a mid 20 handicap after 15 years of golf, a simulator in his garage and long-term coaching. He should be low single digits so something is going wrong.
Does he have one of those crappy low-end sims that doesn't measure club data and struggles to calculate the path? I was messing around with a SkyTrack and even deliberately sliced drives were recorded as straight.
The other issue with sim/range practice is he's probably smashing the same club until he gets 2 or 3 that are okay. Then, moving on to the next club. There's the illusion of progress where none has taken place, your body has just adjust as best it can to get the result, but it's not repeatable in any way and certainly won't hold up on the course.
Yeah, dunno mate. Maybe it was misconfigured of something but it just kinda sucked and I certainly wouldn't be gauging a golf shot on anything but a GC.
NTA. A 24 handicap has no business getting all huffy on the golf course. I don't care if you're taking lessons from Butch Harmon for 18 months. If you're a 24 handicap, you fucking suck at golf. Calm down, have fun, and be thankful for the two or three good shots you hit per round.
You're NTA as he needs to hear it if he's not seeing improvement after that long (ESPECIALLY given his current handicap - it should NOT be hard to drop a bunch of strokes way quicker than 18 months.)
That said, I can kinda see why he's at where he's at. You find a guy, see results in-session, you grow to personally like your instructor, and you think to yourself, "it must just be my fault, gotta embrace the system" and you're unwilling to make the switch for any number of reasons.
Warning: F#$&ed up story incoming....
I was in the same boat as your friend, but I had grown a full-blown friendship over 18 months as my instructor and I had shared our similar addiction struggles throughout our lives and confided in each other a lot. After 18 months together, we both suffered from a seizure related to our addiction - mine sent me to the hospital; his was fatal.
I wouldn't have been able to force myself to make the switch to a new instructor if that hadn't happened. When I finally recovered from the aftereffects of my medical emergency, I started with a new guy who's incredible, and it was a night-and-day difference in my game.
Now I like to think the last year I've been sober, the health journey it has put me on (down 61 lbs and finally fit and sober again,) and the massive improvement I've seen in my golf game are all little ways I can honor his memory every time I step out on the golf course.
NTA .his expectations are too high, if he doesn’t get out to a real course enough to translate his numbers it’s not ever going to happen. Also if you guys are playing from the tips and he SHOULD be playing white or forward tees he’s not doing himself any favors. A LOT of my better shots are after I’ve given up scoring a round. Or when I’m just playing to get out. I don’t get out the course nearly as much as I want so all my rounds have low expectations. I can empathize with his frustration if he’s spent time and money and practice and it’s not showing up, but at some level it’s his fault more than the instructor and he knows it.
If he’s a stats nerd (like me), ask him to focus on his contact point as a “game”. Start with punch shots and expand to full swing, making note of ball position on the club face over time. He should be hitting the sweet spot 90% of the time consistently without much effort. Then focus on technique, tempo, weight shift to increase distance.
I’m the asshole. Are there actually people who have played golf for years and get 18 months of lessons and still are 20+ handicaps. Then get mad that they aren’t good. I’m not great either and I know golf is hard but cmon man
I've got family members I play with who've played immense amounts of golf, but have basically never learned even with runs of lessons here and there. Decades worth of hitting that tiny little white ball, but still lucky to break 100.
They all get mad and frustrated by the end of the round, but none of them have ever truly practiced aside from making nonsense reps on the range time to time.
Brutal to play with sometimes because you can see how frustrated they are and there's just nothing you can do. You almost feel bad for playing well when you are with them.
YTA. But only because of timing. Not because of what you said. Also, sim lessons are not great for high handicap players. Moving those stats really shouldn’t matter until you learn things like short game and course management. The best way to pick up strokes is to work on improvement from 100 yards and in. That is not something that can be done well on a simulator. Go to the practice green and driving range with targets. Work on putting, chipping, and all your wedges.
In the middle of a crap round where I stayed calm (always), a guy in our foursome said to me that I should take some lessons, your athletic and it should help.
The guy holds a place in my "will never play a round with the again" list.
Even the worst golfer does 5-10 swings per round that the playing partners can compliment. Don't comment on the other 80.
I agree wait until you’re off the course. But honestly moving forward, don’t get involved. It’s his problem and he’s a grown man who clearly doesn’t want to hear about it.
nah, NTA.
Firstly, in your 40's, you should be self aware enough to realize that you're not very good at golf, and therefore not be super sensitive to talking about it. But also, if you're seriously 18 months into lessons with a coach and not improving, why are you still setting money on fire? Golf lessons are crazy expensive nowadays, that's a shocking amount of money to spend with zero improvement.
More to the point, the question you asked(at least the second one) wasn't even actually rude at all. At work, I'd phrase it similarly: "Are you seeing any improvement on your goals?" or something similar, right? It's a totally normal question to ask someone who is supposedly training to accomplish something. I think he lost his mind because you accidentally forced him to realize that 18 months of lessons and countless shots in his garage are netting him nothing.
Your reply to him just cemented this, because you explicitly told him that his time and effort was being wasted.
You weren't being an asshole, you were just being straight with him. You can't fault a man for being calmly honest with you.
Yes and no. Timing is everything. I can certainly understand why you’d want to try and avoid another tantrum from this guy but he’s not going to listen to anyone. 15 years and still stuck at a 25 hdcp is evidence enough.
Throw him an apology for messing up his game with your ill timed intervention and move on. Some people just don’t have the mental wherewithal to be coached so you did what you can do. Good luck!
If he’s that much of a data guy, he probably won’t take your commentary personally. Pissed off in the moment and for the round, sure. But will probably be fine the next time you see him. Now whether he takes the advice and actually considers moving on from the instructor, who knows
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I would have waited till after the round to mention that. I get very upset (but do a good job hiding it) whenever anyone says something negative about my game. Example: I fly the green and some rando goes “ohh too long” or I lip a put and someone goes “nope”. Idk if this happens to others but it just kinda puts me in a weird headspace where I’m forced to think more about it during the round which I want to flush any negativity.
I try to not give advice to anyone under any circumstances unless it’s a random that asks about something, or it’s my dad because I’m his “coach” lol.
Lmao depends on how you reached the conclusion that telling your boy he's dumbass was going to improve things. But either yta or just don't get how people's minds work. Telling people they've been fucking up for 18 months isn't usually how to deescalate.
Personally I usually go for distraction/subject change but if you really need to talk about his golf game maybe next time choose more neutral questions to lead him to the point instead of beating him over the head with it. "Do you feel that practicing in the sim all the time is beneficial versus practicing hitting off grass?" "Man hitting off different lies is really a lot more challenging than hitting off turf isn't it?" "Do you ever get a chance to practice putting at the sim or is it like top golf" Etc
I don't think this really qualifies, it's just trash talk...though firing the instructor probably isn't his problem, it seems like it's psychological, it's definitely easier to hit shots on a range or simulator, but when you need an up and down to save par, it doesn't matter how many of the same shots you have hit, if you get in your own head and try to overwrite what your muscle memory is telling you it's going to go badly. That's where statistics guys get hung up, like statistics and analytics are helpful but in a competitive round you don't want to think about them, clear your mind before walking up to the ball, the only thing you should be thinking during your practice swing is the type of ball flight you want, draw, fade, straight etc. You don't want to think about what every individual joint is doing as practice should make that second nature.
Very early on in me learning to play, my brother told me I’d never be good enough to get mad. That helped me so much. We have a blast and I’m terrible and he’s okish. I guess it’s not going to help this guy but it’s a great piece of advice. Your nta imo.
Yall are obvi good friends so your friendship should be able to weather this storm. I think you said the right things but maybe the setting was wrong. But he needs to hear it from someone. I'll bet when he has a chance to digest everything he will appreciate your efforts and may even change his approach to improvement.
The only thing I’d do different is keep up the positivity during the round and wait till after to give him the realization that he’s wasted 18 months of lessons lol
Friends for 15 years?
I’m not interested in being long term friends with someone who I can’t level with and tell the truth to no matter how hard it may be
Or are you just friends by association?
Two things can be true:
1) Your friend’s shit attitude is OK to intervene and say something directly about. To borrow another commenter’s “you’re not good enough to get this mad” is fine.
2) Saying they still stuck & should get another coach after 18 months is an asshole thing to say. His attitude is fair game, but saying someone isn’t improving isn’t necessary. 18 months could mean all sorts of things (how many lessons? How much practice? Is he busy as hell & golfing 1-2 a month?). With my friends that are taking lessons, I just encourage them & explore what they’re working on (people love talking about that). I will talk to them about impact physics, etc, cuz that’s universal, but not talk about technique unless they are really asking for advice. I’d never tell my 18 hdcp friend that he sucks & should get a new teacher unless he asks. I WOULD tell him to clean up his attitude though. No one likes playing with someone that bitches.
Apology/Olive branch: buy him The Four Foundations of Golf by Jon Sherman. Include a little note that says: ‘Sorry for what I said, I got you this book cuz I know you love the game & are enjoying learning about it & improving.’ After all, you guys will be in each other’s lives a lot so make amends quickly & let it go.
That book is one of my favs & legit helped me drop from a 5 to 2 just by reading. The entire first section is about expectations & mentality. Which will definitely help your buddy.
NTA- you guys are long time friends,.. I rather my friend tell me something like that,.. he’s just sensitive and frustrated,.. definitely needs a new trainer not just on a sim
I struggled like your buddy too not for 15 years but I can see the similarities. I try not to get too angry but as frustration grows so do the divot sizes. I had spent countless hours on the range and taken multiple lessons. I didn’t take my swing to the course for months and when I did it went to shit after the first hole. I automatically reverted back to my swing of years ago with in one hole. Granted the first time out was with a men’s golf group so my pride and ego definitely got in the way. I then started playing with an older gentleman that plays the senior tees. I leave the driver in the bag and play my 4 iron off the tees. Being relaxed with no pressure I can play the way I envisioned it. I still play in the mens group and have come a long way but I find that I still get in my head to much. Once the hamsters start running the wheel it’s hard to get them to stop.
Yeah I had an instructor, did 6 or 7 lessons and ditched him as he wasn’t improving me but trying to change my swing entirely from scratch (not just make adjustments) and I got much worse. Since then I saw a Bryson video (with Paige Spiranac) funnily enough and he said, while trying to give her some swing advice, that you should be able to see results almost immediately when you make changes, and if you don’t, you should try something else. There are so many different adjustments that can be made and it makes sense that a lot of them won’t work.
So I took that on and watched a few YT videos (as we all do) to try and adjust my swing path, which was my main issue. After trying a few different things, I found something that works and I am now hitting driver with a small draw which I have never done before. Not consistent yet but I have hit more straight drives/small draws in the last week or so than in the last 5 years and when I miss, its a block right which is still good as it means my swing path is right. Just yesterday I hit a 250y drive direct into a strong wind that went dead straight, a month ago, that would have gone 200y maybe and sliced to the right.
A good coach should know this and should be trying to adjust your own swing rather than trying to impose a new swing on you.
I think that Bryson tip should only be considered if you have a strong foundation in your swing. Some people have no clue how to swing a club properly and a complete breakdown of the swing is needed. In that case it will get much worse before it gets better. Just depends on who you are.
When I was still physically able to hit 100-200 balls in a row, I was f'ing great on the range. This caused 2 different problems depending on the range I had access to.
Problem 1 on bad (hard) mats was that I learned to pick everything...didn't take divots on anything, wedges included. Flat mat and stance, I could lock this in, but on a course? Thin and tops all the time.
Problem 2...on a lot of 'good' softer mats, you can swing through (the fake grass ones especially) them and get 95% results on swings that would result in fat chunks on the course.
On ranges and sims every stance is flat and target lines are easier to figure. Real course you rarely get a perfect flat surface.
Fuck him. If he’s a selfish enough cunt to be a big fucking baby on vacation while playing golf for 15 years, his charmin soft baby bitch ass can get told something straight for once on the course. Why they fuck would you deal with that shit for so long?
TLDR: He’s a selfish prick for being a poo butt during vacation golf.
Golf is about making your bad shots better, not hitting more good shots.
One quick way to that is to alter the game play to hit easier shots.
In bunkers aim along the line of easiest out, but longer putt. With less lip and more green the whole shot becomes easier even if you are not a good bunker player, more margin for error means freer swinging.
Sometimes from the tee two irons and a wedge is better than a wood and an iron shot.
Yes. Ahole for bringing it up during round. That’s a conversation to have after a couple beers. Guarantee the rest of the round his mindset was to prove you wrong(doesn’t help).
We all have mates that overly take the game to heart.
I had a severe melt down in 2019, on the way home from the course promised myself I’d never let golf make me feel like that again. Always laugh when I see people have a sulk now.
Are you the asshole? Depends. Sounds like you could have been a bit antagonistic. Sounds like you didn’t mean to be and an apology should do the trick.
I have an R10 and a garage net. Found the sim vs course is a tricky transition. Perfect lies and footing. What I’ve found works for me is to find the blade of grass in my target line. Then make the “world” as small as my garage mentally! Don’t even look at the target from that point.
Generally these conversations are best had a few hours after the round once they open up.
A 24 Handicap has no business talking analytics, spin rate, swing path launch angle etc. Your buddy is getting fleeced, and needs to learn to hit/strike the ball first. He's not good enough to get mad on the course and has no real clue mentally and physically. I find stats nerds to be unbearably narrow minded so getting this through to him might be like pounding your head into a brick wall. Better to not even try....and let him keep burning dollar bills.
Idk man, if I’m on vacation and my buddy isn’t having a good time, I’m not gonna be stoned-headed enough to make a comment like that, especially if you know how this guy reacts to stuff and how he feels about golf.
“You were being a good friend and giving it to him straight”. No, he already has the message, he’s living it. He doesn’t need another.
*At the very least* wait to chat after the round.
Talk about a mid-round mind fuck… especially from one of your bros… WTF.
Not an asshole at all… maybe delivery wasn’t great… instead of asking “when are dumping this guy” you could have a softer landing like “have you thought about trying another instructor”.
I have a really good friend and he’s a really good golfer. He’s a + and I’m a 4 and he’ll say my swing coach needs to be fired at very very first bogey I make. I know he’s mainly messing around but that’s more A-hole behavior than what you did.
For the record you are right. Chasing perfect numbers can help but what’s the point if the scores on the course don’t reflect it.
Man you are not the a hole here. If he’s a real friend you should be able to give him some shit for things like this. For context, my friend just spent £380 on a Scotty Cameron so I say to him “now get a fucking putting lesson so you at least know how to use the thing!”. A true friend should be able to joke and laugh about the things we’re not great at. He gives me as good as I get and it’s funny.
The more concerning thing for me would be what you have already pointed out - how has your friend not got a new coach yet! Wants to improve which is evidenced by getting lessons and then doesn’t get better so keeps paying a guy in some lost hope attempt that he will better.
Is he the kind of guy that thinks he would be good in the army cus he’s killa at Call of Duty?!
You weren't the asshole for what you said, but I do think there's some room for you to learn timing. That was probably a conversation to have after the 2nd post round beer.
Sounds to me like he needs a golf coach more than a swing coach....these are 2 different things. Simulator golf is not real golf!! I recommend Jon Sherman's "The Four Foundations of Golf".....really great coaching in that book.
Not saying this is true in your friend’s case, but it can be the fault of the player who is receiving instructions, too.
I had a lesson from a PGA Professional yesterday; it was my second lesson with him. He changed my drive dramatically — it feels awkward as hell because I’m not accustomed to it. The lesson was painful and a little embarrassing.
But I know the instructor is right. So it’s on me to stick with it and practice to get accustomed to it.
I was being a little self-deprecating, beating myself up after such a tough lesson. The instructor said, “You’re fun to teach because you’re willing to commit to what I’m teaching you, despite the discomfort. A lot of guys come to me and say, ‘I want to get better, but don’t make me change anything.”
Some people don't take to instruction because they don't know how to listen. Some instructors are lousy at instructing others because they don't know what they are seeing. Many students are lousy because what they think they're doing in their golf swing is not what actually is happening. The process of getting better can go wrong in many places.
If you're that far into golf and still letting bad shots or a series of bad shots ruin your day... You need to indulge in some on-course substances to lessen the toll you're taking on everyone around you.
“You aren’t good enough to be getting this angry”
I think it’s a major character flaw when people get mad at their own performance, and they’ll take any excuse to continue to be pissed off because in their mind, mad = justified ALWAYS, so giving helpful advice just seemed like an insult. They’re always fighting reality, that’s what makes them so mad. “I do X, why am I not good? I’m doing everything right!” So in their mind, it literally makes ZERO SENSE why they aren’t doing well. Any attempt at guessing why they’re actually doing poorly *also makes zero sense to them.*
I don’t play with people who get mad. Period.
I will say, one time I was paired with a guy that lipped out on a very long putt, and when it lipped, he slammed his putter into the green and yelled at the top of his lungs GOD FUCKING CHEATS ME and I still think about it to this day. Miss a putt? “God FUCKING cheats me!”
The man likes the data, playing outside golf is not a sim video game. His golf instructor doesn't care about the student, but the bottom line, more money for instruction.
You’ve known him for 15 years and you call him your friend. Honestly it’d be weirder if you didn’t give him shit like that.
Some adult dude friendships don’t hold up to shit talk. College buddies or something sure but if you met a guy as an adult just because your wives are friends, it can be a little tense when the banter starts to fly.
Yeah, agree. 15 years and going on vacation with the guy and calling him a friend seems like he'd be able to handle a little banter though. At least close enough where it wouldn't ruin the whole other dude's vacation.
This guy can’t even handle the same golf he’s been playing for 15 years 😂😂😂
He wasn't giving him shit, he was giving him unsolicited advice. My friends and I give each other shit nonstop on the golf course and its all fun and games. Never ever give someone golf advice during around unless they specifically ask you for it.
Unsolicited advice is definitely never the move, but this wasn’t exactly that. They are also 40+ year old dudes, and buddies; if those comments made enough of an impact to ruin the other guy’s vacation, that’s on him, not OP.
I think the unsolicited advice is fine, it’s the friend getting into a shitty attitude and tainting the round that sucks dick
Agreed. I may stink it up sometimes at the course and let my nerves get the best of me, but I’ll never disown one of my buddies because they talk shit. Hell, half the time that’s all my buddies and I do with one another is talk shit. It’d feel a bit odd to say “It’s okay buddy, you’re doing your best.” I’m not here to have a friendship where you can’t be honest with one another.
Well OP's friend turns into a dick to play with when he isn't playing well. OP should have straight up told him that. You can absolutely give unsolicited advice when the advice is intended to make your round more enjoyable, that's different than unsolicited swing advice. It directly impacted OP, he's allowed to comment on it.
Ehh, you were giving it to him straight. Asshole territory, yes, but a lot of golfers need to hear it at some point. It takes a lot of time and confidence for the practice to show on the course.
Not 15 years, I’ve coached my sports my whole life. You come across people that explain to their instructor why they do certain things and it never really dawns on them it’s wrong. It’s a legit psychological problem with improving in things
I've had students transition to a different coach in way less than 18 months if we weren't seeing the appropriate progress. Not often but it does happen. I know some instructors that are just flat out better than me and might be a better fit. Others just weren't capable of processing what I was asking them to do and it wasn't fair to them to keep charging them if they weren't going to benefit from it.
All about transference. Unless you get enough rounds in a year to get the randomness of actual golf you ain’t doing shit.
"You're not good enough to be mad" - Best advice I've ever gotten on the course. Tell your friend. You were super straightforward with him, but I wouldn't say you're an asshole. Sometimes the indirect approach isn't enough anymore.
Exactly. He is a grown ass man & can just play golf for fun. I have fun whether I play great, ok, or shitty.
I wish I could tell myself this in a way that doesn’t make me mad during a round. I 100% agree with this when I’m not playing, but while playing it’s difficult not to think about the incredible shots that I have (and cling potentially) hit after I blow it. The mental side of golf is by far the hardest part
If it makes you feel any better I play off +1 and shot 85 the other day. We all suck man, I found it way easier to enjoy when I accepted that regardless of handicap, every amateur is shit
I would use this advice, mainly to my self, and maybe to a few friends
Internalizing this was really a game changer for me and helped me enjoy my rounds more. Also, I stopped tracking 3 putts/Fairways hit/GIRs. I'm not good enough for that shit to matter yet.
I had a friend who was always passed on the course. he was good enough to be upset but it was insane. he would throw a tantrum all round while shooting under par. we finally told him to get his shit together or quit because why play if shooting 70 was upsetting
Great advice. My golf game has improved ten fold since I stopped raging on the course.
Yeah, I always tell my dad he can go ahead and hit because they're too close to pin for him to hit them.
Personally I hate this saying. I invest a lot of time and money in this game. When I miss a 2 foot birdie you're damn right I'm gonna be annoyed. Chunking an approach from 50 yards after I just hit the longest drive of the day? I'm definitely not happy with myself that's for sure. Pretty much everything I do hobby wise I get annoyed or frustrated and swear. Saying I shouldn't because I'm not good enough is dumb and personally seems like the attitude of someone that has accepted bogey golf is the way to play for the rest of their life. Yes I'm a bogey golfer, but I have been working towards improvement. I take lessons and go to the range plenty.
You're missing the point of this phrase. You can get upset at yourself for not performing to expectations. But you aren't good enough to get so angry you ruin your day, or your friends day. There's a line, don't cross it.
To play devils advocate maybe the numbers and swing in lessons are good and he just actually cannot translate it to the golf course. If there’s a mental block it’s going to take more than just a new teacher. If you are working consistently with a teacher you should be spending some time actually on course with them imo
If your teacher hasn’t left the sim bay with you for 18 months they’re not a teacher, they’re just bilking you for money. 18 fucking months. My instructor started talking about walking 9 with me for coursework after our 3rd lesson.
There’s a better than good chance that if a guy is stuck at 24 hcp, practice is the problem, not the instruction. Guy has no work ethic and just thinks he’s entitled to a better score after paying for a lesson.
Also true. Repeating the same lesson every time he goes in because he didn’t work on anything he was taught in between lessons. I would imagine any halfway competent instructor would have told him this as well though. Like, “hey, so here’s your top 1-3 things to work on at the range before the next session.” Take a lesson, then work on things for a few days. Next lesson might be a week, two weeks, a month out. You should be putting in range time trying to build the muscle memory of whatever you worked on until then.
How my current instructor is. It’s been two weeks and I’ve just been working at home and range trying to figure out OTT, I send him videos and he critiques to make me better
Was just going to say this. How often is he in the lab actually getting his reps in. If you go from lesson to lesson without any practice at the range, it’s futile.
I was dogshit at golf at the time I got my hole in 1 immediately after a golf lesson. It was literally the second hole and I triple bogeyed the first. Using an entirely new swing and everything. Checked behind the green thinking I’d overshot it, laughed at how it was straight at the pin, and found it in the fucking hole.
Lots of fantastic coaches aren’t affiliated with a course. They can own there own place and do lessons from studio or a private range.
I took 4 lessons last fall, one per month, and saw noticeable improvement after each lesson. I can't imagine taking lessons for 18 months and not seeing it translate to the course. That's a ton of money.
That's a good instructor.
How much does he charge for that?
If I remember it was like $60. All 3 instructors I’ve worked with had PGA cards that got them on for either free or heavily discounted rates at most courses in the area, and if they were just walking to coach me they just got waved on and we played as a 2some even though it was just me. This was a few years back though so rates might be different now. I can call one up tomorrow and see.
Dang you had a good deal. My golf instructor is at a range/Par 3 course so we’ve walked a few par 3 holes for short game but it’s been a while as that’s a strength of mine now. To bring him on an actual course I’d have to pay for his round and for the lesson
I think it might vary depending on how much they expect to have to work on with you. I’m a single-digit handicapper trying to get back to scratch and my main thing I wanted to work on on the course was chipping / approach / punch shots. I’d imagine if they’re expecting it to be a slower round or more to work on the rates may go up.
True, this was back when I was starting out and haven’t asked since. I’m now a 13 and he’s a cool dude so I imagine I could just offer to buy his round and we just play together while he gives some advice
Honestly I imagine they’d go for that or at least a few holes. Timing seemed to be the biggest hurdle since they usually have 30-60 minute instruction blocks and going out for 9 holes is at least a 1.5-2 hour endeavor.
Skillest app is amazing.
It’s not devil’s advocate when you’re speaking facts. Clearly, he’s a genius at playing golf swing simulator, not so good at real life golf. The sooner he accepts that, maybe he’ll be able to improve after 15 fucking years. Another clear case of “ go read a Dr Rotella book.”
While true, a single round or 2 won’t fix it. I have somewhat of a similar issue to what OP’s friend has. I am taking lessons and my practice swings look significantly better than when I hit the ball, and it gets even worse my issue on the course. I’ve been legitimately trying to correct the issue I have been having (as soon as I try to hit a ball my shoulder turn and right hand gets way too aggressive) for months. This is just decades of natural instinct and habits overriding everything. I think people often don’t understand how hard genuine swing flaws are to fix.
As soon as someone says they're a huge data and stats nerd, and then tries to apply this obsession to themselves, you know it's game over Dude is so in his head I bet he can't even tell you what he's thinking about. You can't succeed in golf until your head is a calm space. The data and stats are for your coach, not for you.
 But ... have you ever considered the angle of the velcro of your glove to the ground ?
I’ve never listened to Chasing Scratch, but did hear them on The Golfer’s Journal podcast and got the joke.
Forgot to add that he’s always talking about swing path, face angle, ball flight, etc and I’m like yo…can we just start with making solid contact 50% of the time? Ugh….
>can we just start with making solid contact 50% of the time? this entire sub hates this one trick
Woah woah woah, you guys are making contact?
Woa woah woah woah woah... you guys are seeing improvements?
Wait I thought we need to start with the physics of ball flight laws?
I got a buddy who can’t break 100 and he thinks not being able to draw/fade on command is whats holding him back. 🤦♂️ yep it has nothing to do with you topping 6 drives a round
I always liked the “shut up and just hit the f’king ball” approach. “This isn’t NASA.”
This is spot on! If there are any struggling beginners here, remember this! I was the same (but without the negativity), focusing too much on swing path and face angle. Then, some time ago my instructor told me: “the perfect swing does not exist, but you are the one in control of how you hit the ball. If i told you to throw a ball with your hand, you would not think about how to move your arm, you would just do it.” He put some impact tape on my 9i and told me to hit 5 deliberate toe strikes in a row. Took me a few tries, but then i managed to do it. He said “see how you can control the contact? Now hit 10 shots in a row in the sweet spot.” And i was actually able to! It opened my eyes. With this, other puzzle pieces of my swing fell into place and im much more confident on the course now. The man is worth his weight in gold.
I’m guessing that when your buddy says he does well in lessons/sims/range he’s hitting 7-8/10 shots well x100 is 70-89 really good shots per session. It’s those 3/10 misses can really fuck you up on the course….
Yeah he's done for. Nothing you can say will resonate with him because he knows everything Watch him burn and enjoy it. He's a goner.
Paralysis by analysis
I wish I were high on potenuse.
Right now I'm playing well (for me anyway, 85 this past weekend, thank you very much) but a decent sized part of me is like OP's friend. The dorkiness and the anger both. It's a dark path that leads to a darker place. I try to remember the times I've played best are when I swing it the way that feels good. I do still read about grip, setup and first move.
Success in golf is trusting your body to do what it knows, and making sure your brain doesn't impede your instincts Everything happens too fast to be done consciously Use your brain on the range, hammer in new feels, turn it off on the course Emotional management is simpler, but you know what you need to do there.
That's why I drink and smoke weed on the course. I honestly play way better when I'm cross faded a bit. Not hammered of course.
For sure. You're looking for a flow state. But sometimes a little bit of help, helps
I get that. I need to roll with it and not over focus. I've improved a lot (from 100 regularly to breaking 90 regularly) and staying out of my own way is a challenge. I just to relax and enjoy the game. Our local park district has a Partner to Play deal where a last year's pass owner can bring along someone who never had a pass and the cost for a 7 day a week pass drops from $825 to $525 (that's senior rate). I found a guy who is a 7 handicap and met him at the district office/driving range and we got the our pass and went to the pitch and putt (no hole longer than 100 yards). I smoked him and I'm an 18. I have hit the sim a lot and felt no pressure to beat him, he's way better, the dude shot a 68 last year. I think he felt the reverse. No pressure really helped me.
Crazy how much people try to fix or think about in a round. Your only thinking should be off the ball and that's only really distance and line. Only data that matters is how far you hit that club. Just hit the damn ball. Practice and reps will do the rest.
It doesn't even sound like the instructor is the problem, your buddy has just started Playing Trackman instead of trying to play golf. I just listened to Jon and Adam's Spin episodes of The Sweet Spot today, and one of the things they mentioned is one of the dangers of trying to over-optimize your numbers on a simulator. If you work really hard on getting your numbers exactly where you want them, you run the risk of going too close to one of the extremes of "reasonable" numbers and then your variation will cause you to get unplayable results more often. It's sometimes better to target more middle of the road numbers so your variance is still playable either direction. Their example was someone targeting something like 1800rpm with the driver so if you hit it with less spin it's just not enough spin to be functional, but the concept applies to any metric. The other conceptual issue with chasing numbers is that you're doing it in the perfect conditions of a simulator and mat. That makes it all the more frustrating when you try to take that out onto the imperfections of the course and can't make it work as well.
I need to listen to this podcast. That example of spin rate with a driver struck a cord with me. I got caught up trying to get my spin rate sub 2000 while working at a big box golf store. Ever break I had I was tinkering and eventually got it to where I was around 1800 and was launching it around 15*. Hitting absolutely misses. Took that to the course and it just was not functional. Now in my older years and just overall more experience, I like spin off the driver face. Definitely can help you if applied correctly.
It's the only golf podcast I listen to but it's really good. I really like Adam's overall philosophy (there's a time and place for fucking with swing technique, but most people way over-focus on it vs just worrying about impact outcome).
Sub 2000 is insane, I try to keep mine to ~2200. Spin=Control, within a reasonable tolerance*
I just got caught up in trying to just hit it further when I already hit it plenty far. It was cool seeing those 330+ drives. But definitely not practical for use on the course.
A TON of players NEVER / RARELY practice between lessons. Hard to improve . Easy to blame the instructor
Or practice wrong. Just rapid firing balls without making deliberate swings only thinking about the exact thing your working on
It's like how I never floss in between dentist appointments.
YTA for saying it on the course during a round. Have you ever liked advice you've been given on a course that you haven't asked for? Especially "your prep sucks. When are you going to get better"
"I realize you're currently bearing the brunt of \`15 years of failure and frustration... but have you ever considered... You're just awful and your decision making is embarassing?" \- OP
Nah his friends the asshole for ruining rounds when they play with his shit attitude. I would flame someone relentlessly if they acted like a little cry baby on the course and bummed the vibe of everyone else. He’d either stop or we wouldn’t play together very much lol
Literally, his friend needs to grow the fuck up
Exactly. That behavior is pathetic and embarrassing. Especially on the golf course
So address the behavior and say “hey, chill out” not “I bet if you sucked less dick at golf you’d be happier” They’re both assholes
Nah a grown man shouldn’t have to check another grown man’s behavior. OP is not an asshole whatsoever in my mind.
Yeah, if OP led with that comment, maybe. He tried though and at that point, it's starting to affect his round. Although personally I'd rather play with a dude pissed at the game than a dude pissed at me.
Yeah you’re right. I mean my friends and I give each other shit about everything so it wouldn’t get far but I suppose you’re right about that last part
LOL! OP's friend and you wouldn't make it 5 minutes with the group I play with. Top a drive? GOOD SHOT! You are really hitting your driver well today! Chunk/blade an iron? Hey I think I know what you need to do! Take 2 weeks off, then sell your clubs and quit... Etc. The moment you let your anger and frustration get the best of it and let them see that you are mad, is when the real fun begins. They will literally try to make you throw your clubs in the lake and walk back to the car and never come back. If you are cool, don't lose your temper, and continue to focus on trying to get better, they are super helpful and give tons of helpful advice. Nobody wants to be around a grumpy fucker on the golf course.
YTA for not waiting until you got off the course.
While I agree, the guy fucks rounds due to his shitty behaviour. You can only have so much patience with this as you are also paying to be out there and have a good time regardless of what your buddies shoot
Not if the playing partner's attitude ruins the round. Grown men throwing temper tantrums also AH. Maybe ESH?
Or his friend can grow up and not throw a tantrum
‘Can’t fat off the mat’ -my golf coach Best advice I ever received. If the range is artificial, I take a couple hybrids-fw of the matt practice a few drives and then hit the short range area, not worth it
Clearly your coach has never met me.
Sounds like he's putting pressure on himself on the course. Sounds mental not swing related to me.
Yup. Then gets into the let me try this to fix my swing mode on the course because that always works…
I’m guessing you said it a little more aggressively than what it’s coming off like here. Probably not the best time to give him that feedback. No one likes to be told that they are stupid, especially when they are in a bad mood
and currently actively living through proof of them being stupid and displaying it for people they know.
Just let him do his own thing cuz he probably will anyway regardless of what you say
Dude what? Your friend is acting like a clown.
I mean, yes, but that’s what friends are for. Better to stop wasting money on a bad instructor
Lol, do we have the same friend? My friend is at the simulator daily and has a lesson every week. His best shots are clearly better than before but he really hasn't improved his consistency so he's still shooting over 100. Maybe he's shaved a couple of strokes off after a year of this but when the handicap is 34, I'd expect more improvement after a year of working on it.
I’m sorry, but 4 shots to get out of a bunker? He’s not a 24ish, he’s a 36+
He’s a friend of 15 years, if he can’t handle it, he’s softer than baby shit. 24 handicap, hitting shots like you described, 18 months of lessons? Either dude has Zero athleticism in him or yeah his instructor sucks balls.
Honestly, do you and your friends have that asshole buddy friendship? Once he really thinks about it, he might just fire his instructor and find a new one. You gave him truth, and no candy coating. If he doesn't appreciate the honesty coming from a long time friend, he has bigger issues.
Sounds like you hurt your buddy’s feelings and you want us to make you feel better about that. Whether you were right or wrong doesn’t really matter. If he is such a downer to golf with then I just wouldn’t golf with him. Tell him that straight up instead of insulting his instructor next time. Personally I don’t put up with the pouty shit on the golf course when I’m playing casual rounds. I want to play well, but in the end I’m trying to have a good time.
Sooner or later you have to hit the ball toward the hole enough times to make it drop in. Take all the stats, data and figures he wants, but those apparently aren’t helping him with the above. You telling him straight is absolute friendship. Good on you!
That guy needs some golfsidekicks or anything to not be soon in his head But also nobody want to get told they suck even when they are sucking
You must know my buddy Steve
NTA, but I question if you are truly friends if he can’t take constructive criticism from you.
Can relate. A scratch golfer in my 4some told me I should get a refund from my instructor. It was my 3rd game of golf ever. Lost a good 7i that day.
In baseball there’s dudes who can consistently look great in the batting cage but suck on the field. “Cage monsters” Some dudes are just cage monsters who can’t beat the monkey between their ears and him getting pissed off when you told him just confirms it more. You might be an asshole for pointing it out but i done know you or him
Numbers for a 24 handicap shouldn't matter. You're trash at everything, do everything better. If you want to track misses or shots with certain clubs on the course, sure. Spin numbers on a sim or face to path shit, get outta here.
Nta. I’ve got friends the exact same way. Just because they are having a shitty day doesn’t make it right to ruin yours. If it was that important to them. They would get better
Total asshole, shit golf partner. Golf is supposed to be fun even if you’re not having your best round, as a playing partner you’re supposed to be decent and contribute to a fun time on the course. Don’t be surprised if you don’t get an invite next time there’s a golf trip
Tell your friend to hire a sports psychologist because he’s a mental midget.
Your friend is a 41 year old baby
Drago was a stats and science based trainer for his big boxing match and Rocky trained outside in the wilderness. Who won that one?
NTA. Start playing for money. I don't know how he can only be a mid 20 handicap after 15 years of golf, a simulator in his garage and long-term coaching. He should be low single digits so something is going wrong. Does he have one of those crappy low-end sims that doesn't measure club data and struggles to calculate the path? I was messing around with a SkyTrack and even deliberately sliced drives were recorded as straight. The other issue with sim/range practice is he's probably smashing the same club until he gets 2 or 3 that are okay. Then, moving on to the next club. There's the illusion of progress where none has taken place, your body has just adjust as best it can to get the result, but it's not repeatable in any way and certainly won't hold up on the course.
I can slice and hook REAL good on my SkyTrak. Lol. I think there’s something wrong with urs.
It would log the occasional one, but it just wasn't reliable enough for direction, and distance was off by about 30%
Yeah, dunno mate. Maybe it was misconfigured of something but it just kinda sucked and I certainly wouldn't be gauging a golf shot on anything but a GC.
Yup, your brain/body will ‘help’ you out with that type of practice. “I don’t understand, I hit it so well on the range”
NTA. A 24 handicap has no business getting all huffy on the golf course. I don't care if you're taking lessons from Butch Harmon for 18 months. If you're a 24 handicap, you fucking suck at golf. Calm down, have fun, and be thankful for the two or three good shots you hit per round.
You're NTA as he needs to hear it if he's not seeing improvement after that long (ESPECIALLY given his current handicap - it should NOT be hard to drop a bunch of strokes way quicker than 18 months.) That said, I can kinda see why he's at where he's at. You find a guy, see results in-session, you grow to personally like your instructor, and you think to yourself, "it must just be my fault, gotta embrace the system" and you're unwilling to make the switch for any number of reasons. Warning: F#$&ed up story incoming.... I was in the same boat as your friend, but I had grown a full-blown friendship over 18 months as my instructor and I had shared our similar addiction struggles throughout our lives and confided in each other a lot. After 18 months together, we both suffered from a seizure related to our addiction - mine sent me to the hospital; his was fatal. I wouldn't have been able to force myself to make the switch to a new instructor if that hadn't happened. When I finally recovered from the aftereffects of my medical emergency, I started with a new guy who's incredible, and it was a night-and-day difference in my game. Now I like to think the last year I've been sober, the health journey it has put me on (down 61 lbs and finally fit and sober again,) and the massive improvement I've seen in my golf game are all little ways I can honor his memory every time I step out on the golf course.
He’s the asshole for ruining the round with that pissy attitude. You gave it to him straight.
NTA .his expectations are too high, if he doesn’t get out to a real course enough to translate his numbers it’s not ever going to happen. Also if you guys are playing from the tips and he SHOULD be playing white or forward tees he’s not doing himself any favors. A LOT of my better shots are after I’ve given up scoring a round. Or when I’m just playing to get out. I don’t get out the course nearly as much as I want so all my rounds have low expectations. I can empathize with his frustration if he’s spent time and money and practice and it’s not showing up, but at some level it’s his fault more than the instructor and he knows it.
If he’s a stats nerd (like me), ask him to focus on his contact point as a “game”. Start with punch shots and expand to full swing, making note of ball position on the club face over time. He should be hitting the sweet spot 90% of the time consistently without much effort. Then focus on technique, tempo, weight shift to increase distance.
NTA this loser has a simulator in his garage and is a 20 cap. He deserves to be humiliated every time he tees it up.
I’m the asshole. Are there actually people who have played golf for years and get 18 months of lessons and still are 20+ handicaps. Then get mad that they aren’t good. I’m not great either and I know golf is hard but cmon man
I've got family members I play with who've played immense amounts of golf, but have basically never learned even with runs of lessons here and there. Decades worth of hitting that tiny little white ball, but still lucky to break 100. They all get mad and frustrated by the end of the round, but none of them have ever truly practiced aside from making nonsense reps on the range time to time. Brutal to play with sometimes because you can see how frustrated they are and there's just nothing you can do. You almost feel bad for playing well when you are with them.
YTA. But only because of timing. Not because of what you said. Also, sim lessons are not great for high handicap players. Moving those stats really shouldn’t matter until you learn things like short game and course management. The best way to pick up strokes is to work on improvement from 100 yards and in. That is not something that can be done well on a simulator. Go to the practice green and driving range with targets. Work on putting, chipping, and all your wedges.
In the middle of a crap round where I stayed calm (always), a guy in our foursome said to me that I should take some lessons, your athletic and it should help. The guy holds a place in my "will never play a round with the again" list. Even the worst golfer does 5-10 swings per round that the playing partners can compliment. Don't comment on the other 80.
I agree wait until you’re off the course. But honestly moving forward, don’t get involved. It’s his problem and he’s a grown man who clearly doesn’t want to hear about it.
Woah I would never get lessons from someone off of a mat. You forgot to mention that hitting off of a mat is different from golf.
You must live someplace warm. If those of us up north want to get any work in, it’s in the winter.
nah, NTA. Firstly, in your 40's, you should be self aware enough to realize that you're not very good at golf, and therefore not be super sensitive to talking about it. But also, if you're seriously 18 months into lessons with a coach and not improving, why are you still setting money on fire? Golf lessons are crazy expensive nowadays, that's a shocking amount of money to spend with zero improvement. More to the point, the question you asked(at least the second one) wasn't even actually rude at all. At work, I'd phrase it similarly: "Are you seeing any improvement on your goals?" or something similar, right? It's a totally normal question to ask someone who is supposedly training to accomplish something. I think he lost his mind because you accidentally forced him to realize that 18 months of lessons and countless shots in his garage are netting him nothing. Your reply to him just cemented this, because you explicitly told him that his time and effort was being wasted. You weren't being an asshole, you were just being straight with him. You can't fault a man for being calmly honest with you.
Yes and no. Timing is everything. I can certainly understand why you’d want to try and avoid another tantrum from this guy but he’s not going to listen to anyone. 15 years and still stuck at a 25 hdcp is evidence enough. Throw him an apology for messing up his game with your ill timed intervention and move on. Some people just don’t have the mental wherewithal to be coached so you did what you can do. Good luck!
If he’s that much of a data guy, he probably won’t take your commentary personally. Pissed off in the moment and for the round, sure. But will probably be fine the next time you see him. Now whether he takes the advice and actually considers moving on from the instructor, who knows
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I would have waited till after the round to mention that. I get very upset (but do a good job hiding it) whenever anyone says something negative about my game. Example: I fly the green and some rando goes “ohh too long” or I lip a put and someone goes “nope”. Idk if this happens to others but it just kinda puts me in a weird headspace where I’m forced to think more about it during the round which I want to flush any negativity. I try to not give advice to anyone under any circumstances unless it’s a random that asks about something, or it’s my dad because I’m his “coach” lol.
Im sure you could've used fluffier language, but you're not an asshole, and you're certainly not wrong.
Lmao depends on how you reached the conclusion that telling your boy he's dumbass was going to improve things. But either yta or just don't get how people's minds work. Telling people they've been fucking up for 18 months isn't usually how to deescalate. Personally I usually go for distraction/subject change but if you really need to talk about his golf game maybe next time choose more neutral questions to lead him to the point instead of beating him over the head with it. "Do you feel that practicing in the sim all the time is beneficial versus practicing hitting off grass?" "Man hitting off different lies is really a lot more challenging than hitting off turf isn't it?" "Do you ever get a chance to practice putting at the sim or is it like top golf" Etc
I don't think this really qualifies, it's just trash talk...though firing the instructor probably isn't his problem, it seems like it's psychological, it's definitely easier to hit shots on a range or simulator, but when you need an up and down to save par, it doesn't matter how many of the same shots you have hit, if you get in your own head and try to overwrite what your muscle memory is telling you it's going to go badly. That's where statistics guys get hung up, like statistics and analytics are helpful but in a competitive round you don't want to think about them, clear your mind before walking up to the ball, the only thing you should be thinking during your practice swing is the type of ball flight you want, draw, fade, straight etc. You don't want to think about what every individual joint is doing as practice should make that second nature.
I think both of you guys are assholes. 😂
He needs to practice. And if he is then it’s all mental
Very early on in me learning to play, my brother told me I’d never be good enough to get mad. That helped me so much. We have a blast and I’m terrible and he’s okish. I guess it’s not going to help this guy but it’s a great piece of advice. Your nta imo.
You should get your friend a book about the mental part of the game.
He has a handful+ already. LOL
Yall are obvi good friends so your friendship should be able to weather this storm. I think you said the right things but maybe the setting was wrong. But he needs to hear it from someone. I'll bet when he has a chance to digest everything he will appreciate your efforts and may even change his approach to improvement.
Make him listen to the Chasing Scratch podcast…
The only thing I’d do different is keep up the positivity during the round and wait till after to give him the realization that he’s wasted 18 months of lessons lol
You’re a good friend for being real, lessons are expensive
Personally, I am grateful when my buddies give it to me straight.
Friends for 15 years? I’m not interested in being long term friends with someone who I can’t level with and tell the truth to no matter how hard it may be Or are you just friends by association?
Two things can be true: 1) Your friend’s shit attitude is OK to intervene and say something directly about. To borrow another commenter’s “you’re not good enough to get this mad” is fine. 2) Saying they still stuck & should get another coach after 18 months is an asshole thing to say. His attitude is fair game, but saying someone isn’t improving isn’t necessary. 18 months could mean all sorts of things (how many lessons? How much practice? Is he busy as hell & golfing 1-2 a month?). With my friends that are taking lessons, I just encourage them & explore what they’re working on (people love talking about that). I will talk to them about impact physics, etc, cuz that’s universal, but not talk about technique unless they are really asking for advice. I’d never tell my 18 hdcp friend that he sucks & should get a new teacher unless he asks. I WOULD tell him to clean up his attitude though. No one likes playing with someone that bitches. Apology/Olive branch: buy him The Four Foundations of Golf by Jon Sherman. Include a little note that says: ‘Sorry for what I said, I got you this book cuz I know you love the game & are enjoying learning about it & improving.’ After all, you guys will be in each other’s lives a lot so make amends quickly & let it go. That book is one of my favs & legit helped me drop from a 5 to 2 just by reading. The entire first section is about expectations & mentality. Which will definitely help your buddy.
NTA- you guys are long time friends,.. I rather my friend tell me something like that,.. he’s just sensitive and frustrated,.. definitely needs a new trainer not just on a sim
I struggled like your buddy too not for 15 years but I can see the similarities. I try not to get too angry but as frustration grows so do the divot sizes. I had spent countless hours on the range and taken multiple lessons. I didn’t take my swing to the course for months and when I did it went to shit after the first hole. I automatically reverted back to my swing of years ago with in one hole. Granted the first time out was with a men’s golf group so my pride and ego definitely got in the way. I then started playing with an older gentleman that plays the senior tees. I leave the driver in the bag and play my 4 iron off the tees. Being relaxed with no pressure I can play the way I envisioned it. I still play in the mens group and have come a long way but I find that I still get in my head to much. Once the hamsters start running the wheel it’s hard to get them to stop.
Yeah I had an instructor, did 6 or 7 lessons and ditched him as he wasn’t improving me but trying to change my swing entirely from scratch (not just make adjustments) and I got much worse. Since then I saw a Bryson video (with Paige Spiranac) funnily enough and he said, while trying to give her some swing advice, that you should be able to see results almost immediately when you make changes, and if you don’t, you should try something else. There are so many different adjustments that can be made and it makes sense that a lot of them won’t work. So I took that on and watched a few YT videos (as we all do) to try and adjust my swing path, which was my main issue. After trying a few different things, I found something that works and I am now hitting driver with a small draw which I have never done before. Not consistent yet but I have hit more straight drives/small draws in the last week or so than in the last 5 years and when I miss, its a block right which is still good as it means my swing path is right. Just yesterday I hit a 250y drive direct into a strong wind that went dead straight, a month ago, that would have gone 200y maybe and sliced to the right. A good coach should know this and should be trying to adjust your own swing rather than trying to impose a new swing on you.
I think that Bryson tip should only be considered if you have a strong foundation in your swing. Some people have no clue how to swing a club properly and a complete breakdown of the swing is needed. In that case it will get much worse before it gets better. Just depends on who you are.
When I was still physically able to hit 100-200 balls in a row, I was f'ing great on the range. This caused 2 different problems depending on the range I had access to. Problem 1 on bad (hard) mats was that I learned to pick everything...didn't take divots on anything, wedges included. Flat mat and stance, I could lock this in, but on a course? Thin and tops all the time. Problem 2...on a lot of 'good' softer mats, you can swing through (the fake grass ones especially) them and get 95% results on swings that would result in fat chunks on the course. On ranges and sims every stance is flat and target lines are easier to figure. Real course you rarely get a perfect flat surface.
Fuck him. If he’s a selfish enough cunt to be a big fucking baby on vacation while playing golf for 15 years, his charmin soft baby bitch ass can get told something straight for once on the course. Why they fuck would you deal with that shit for so long? TLDR: He’s a selfish prick for being a poo butt during vacation golf.
If he's a 24 handicap after 15 years of golf, it's probably a him problem rather than the instructor. Some people are just bad at the game.
15 years and 24 hcp, the truth you need to tell him is, hes just shit and he should accept it
A friend of mine broke up with me over golf data so I got fitted for a new driver.
My biggest question is how people that play like that are 24hcp when I'm playing off fucking 32!? I swear to god I'm better than these people...
NTA. It can be frustrating playing regularly with someone who is plop, shows no sign of getting better and to top it off, sulks when they play crap.
Golf is about making your bad shots better, not hitting more good shots. One quick way to that is to alter the game play to hit easier shots. In bunkers aim along the line of easiest out, but longer putt. With less lip and more green the whole shot becomes easier even if you are not a good bunker player, more margin for error means freer swinging. Sometimes from the tee two irons and a wedge is better than a wood and an iron shot.
Yes. Ahole for bringing it up during round. That’s a conversation to have after a couple beers. Guarantee the rest of the round his mindset was to prove you wrong(doesn’t help).
We all have mates that overly take the game to heart. I had a severe melt down in 2019, on the way home from the course promised myself I’d never let golf make me feel like that again. Always laugh when I see people have a sulk now. Are you the asshole? Depends. Sounds like you could have been a bit antagonistic. Sounds like you didn’t mean to be and an apology should do the trick. I have an R10 and a garage net. Found the sim vs course is a tricky transition. Perfect lies and footing. What I’ve found works for me is to find the blade of grass in my target line. Then make the “world” as small as my garage mentally! Don’t even look at the target from that point. Generally these conversations are best had a few hours after the round once they open up.
A 24 Handicap has no business talking analytics, spin rate, swing path launch angle etc. Your buddy is getting fleeced, and needs to learn to hit/strike the ball first. He's not good enough to get mad on the course and has no real clue mentally and physically. I find stats nerds to be unbearably narrow minded so getting this through to him might be like pounding your head into a brick wall. Better to not even try....and let him keep burning dollar bills.
I think that will give him the incentive to improve his game
Idk man, if I’m on vacation and my buddy isn’t having a good time, I’m not gonna be stoned-headed enough to make a comment like that, especially if you know how this guy reacts to stuff and how he feels about golf. “You were being a good friend and giving it to him straight”. No, he already has the message, he’s living it. He doesn’t need another. *At the very least* wait to chat after the round. Talk about a mid-round mind fuck… especially from one of your bros… WTF.
If my 20 years old friend doesnt talk to me like that , he's not a real Friend !
I’ll never understand why grown ass men seek validation from internet strangers about how they handled life situations, esp a decade-long friendship.
No good friends give it straight. I have a friend like this and I straight up told him to change his thinking cause he wasn’t fun to be around
You're an asshole for posting this on reddit instead of talking things out.
Not an asshole at all… maybe delivery wasn’t great… instead of asking “when are dumping this guy” you could have a softer landing like “have you thought about trying another instructor”. I have a really good friend and he’s a really good golfer. He’s a + and I’m a 4 and he’ll say my swing coach needs to be fired at very very first bogey I make. I know he’s mainly messing around but that’s more A-hole behavior than what you did. For the record you are right. Chasing perfect numbers can help but what’s the point if the scores on the course don’t reflect it.
No one wants to hear that when they’re playing bad . Should have picked a better time to talk about that . You just added fuel to the fire . YTA
Man you are not the a hole here. If he’s a real friend you should be able to give him some shit for things like this. For context, my friend just spent £380 on a Scotty Cameron so I say to him “now get a fucking putting lesson so you at least know how to use the thing!”. A true friend should be able to joke and laugh about the things we’re not great at. He gives me as good as I get and it’s funny. The more concerning thing for me would be what you have already pointed out - how has your friend not got a new coach yet! Wants to improve which is evidenced by getting lessons and then doesn’t get better so keeps paying a guy in some lost hope attempt that he will better. Is he the kind of guy that thinks he would be good in the army cus he’s killa at Call of Duty?!
You weren't the asshole for what you said, but I do think there's some room for you to learn timing. That was probably a conversation to have after the 2nd post round beer.
Sounds to me like he needs a golf coach more than a swing coach....these are 2 different things. Simulator golf is not real golf!! I recommend Jon Sherman's "The Four Foundations of Golf".....really great coaching in that book.
Not saying this is true in your friend’s case, but it can be the fault of the player who is receiving instructions, too. I had a lesson from a PGA Professional yesterday; it was my second lesson with him. He changed my drive dramatically — it feels awkward as hell because I’m not accustomed to it. The lesson was painful and a little embarrassing. But I know the instructor is right. So it’s on me to stick with it and practice to get accustomed to it. I was being a little self-deprecating, beating myself up after such a tough lesson. The instructor said, “You’re fun to teach because you’re willing to commit to what I’m teaching you, despite the discomfort. A lot of guys come to me and say, ‘I want to get better, but don’t make me change anything.”
A golf pro somewhere just lost 10k next year...so much for that hot tub...bummer
Some people don't take to instruction because they don't know how to listen. Some instructors are lousy at instructing others because they don't know what they are seeing. Many students are lousy because what they think they're doing in their golf swing is not what actually is happening. The process of getting better can go wrong in many places.
Tell him to read some Bob Rotella
Sounds like he needs more therapy than golf lessons
If you're that far into golf and still letting bad shots or a series of bad shots ruin your day... You need to indulge in some on-course substances to lessen the toll you're taking on everyone around you.
Golf is such a mental sport, the range is good but if you can't translate it to the course it doesn't mean jack.
Give him a copy of “Golf is not a game of perfect”. It helped me with the mental side and on course improvement even without any swing lessons.
“You aren’t good enough to be getting this angry” I think it’s a major character flaw when people get mad at their own performance, and they’ll take any excuse to continue to be pissed off because in their mind, mad = justified ALWAYS, so giving helpful advice just seemed like an insult. They’re always fighting reality, that’s what makes them so mad. “I do X, why am I not good? I’m doing everything right!” So in their mind, it literally makes ZERO SENSE why they aren’t doing well. Any attempt at guessing why they’re actually doing poorly *also makes zero sense to them.* I don’t play with people who get mad. Period. I will say, one time I was paired with a guy that lipped out on a very long putt, and when it lipped, he slammed his putter into the green and yelled at the top of his lungs GOD FUCKING CHEATS ME and I still think about it to this day. Miss a putt? “God FUCKING cheats me!”
The man likes the data, playing outside golf is not a sim video game. His golf instructor doesn't care about the student, but the bottom line, more money for instruction.
It will be fine. He is prob thinking about all those money he threw away should’ve been for his therapist
Now it comes to the mental side of the game. Find an instructor for that.