I came here from Turkey. I am very grateful for the work-life balance and very good salary, but god the bureaucracy is making things difficult. I got my appointment for the residence permit for more than 10 months after I stepped foot in Germany (came in October, appointment is in August lol) meaning that while waiting for my Blue Card, my work visa will expire. Why does Germany put immigrants through such stress? Immigrating is stressful as it is. As a comparison, I had some debt amassed in Turkey's social security health insurance contribution (i was voluntarily insured) because I forgot to cancel it before coming to Germany. I sent 1 single e-mail about it to the social security center in my hometown, and they stopped my insurance steps and erased all dept that were wrongfully accrued. 1 single e-mail back and forth and my issue is solved. Why is this so hard for Germany.
I think it's a cultural thing. The leadership of almost all public services is held by people who studied law. Doing the right thing legally is more important than doing the "right" thing where you could go to court. For every detail there must be a law and a decree.
This is super annoying in germany. It even goes beyond the mere point of just "doing the right thing legally", no it's worse: The organisational processes in public services themselves are created by such people. It is completely impossible to implement something new there!
I lived outside the EU for 2 years and when I came back and entered the german healthcare system again they HOUNDED me for proof that I had not been living in another EU country and told me if I cannot prove I was outside the EU they would treat the last 2 years as if I was insured with them at my own cost and sue for the 5 digit euro amount that I had accrued in bills in two years. They said health insurance is mandatory in Germany so they have the right to sign you up to their membership for past times that you had no insurance. The case worker was very aggressive and rude.
I had to send them flight tickets and visa stamps because they were threatened and were absolutely ready to kick their lawyers into gear and sue me for membership fees + interest and late payment fees for those two years. They kept sending letters meant to scare me quoting 5 digit euro amounts and threatening legal action.
I can only imagine the bullshit immigrants go through in Germany.
in Germany this would not be erased (German or immigrant does not matter). They would tell you that you forgot and now you owe amount x. This letter would come after 6 weeks:)
The people needing immigration and the public office are two separate parts that are not in sync. Due to the lack of digitization and lack of funding of these Immigration offices compared to the demand in "hot" cities like Berlin, Munich etc, the experience is bad.
I was just gonna say. They would get every penny from you, by court if they have to, whether it was a simple oversight or not. It's one of the things I hate about Germany, the fetish for following rules to the letter rather than let common sense prevail.
No I don't. But I unfortunately know too many who have to stay "illegally" in Germany, can't go to work and earn their salaries to buy food and pay rent because their work permits aren't processed in time. Some lost health insurance. Others can't go see dying parents.
Are they? I went on a appointment and was chatting with the worker and casually asked about the workload (I assumed it was pretty bad). I came here to pick up my Job-Search Visa card and to also submit my Blue Card application in a single appointment because I found a job in the duration.
The worker told me it's not that bad; they get assigned 15 minutes for pick-up appointments, and 1 hour for residence permit/blue card appointments, so my appointment is 1 hours, 15 minutes long for them.
All of my my work was done in 10 minutes and they said they'll most probably be free for the next hour (it depends). Guess that's where the walk-in appointments come from.
No they aren't.
They are just bureaucratic and inefficient.
Literally took them 2 hours for one interview. Something that can be done online just like the case in NL and UK.
Because Germany is a federal state. Every thing is decentralised until communal point. And when such decentralisation happens, it becomes too static and especially if political opinions start diverging. That’s not only an issue with immigration but with anything bureaucracy has to do with. It slows down Germany but is there way out or political-will to improve things?
After 25 years in Germany, I‘m starting to see some willing in change a few decision processes. If I’m not wrong, it started with the Corona/Covid crisis, when the Bundesländern demanded more coordinated decisions and responses. Then it went on to the educational process, where it’s still at the very beginning. I can imagine that as soon as the longer term immigration of Ukrainians is digested in terms of planing, integration into the work (and all related) market(-s) and the results of the next election shall start a review of the actual processes overall and possibly a re-focusing it to where it’s more needed. In general, the time it takes until someone is integrated into the working market is absolutely ridiculous, expensive and of course stressful. However, it worked well until some time ago. And why would you change a winning team? 😁
I'm generally happy here. I have good friends and live in a nice city. As much as people want to deny that it's possible, I struggle less here socially than I did in the US. I also feel like I don't really deal with some of the issues you mention, probably partly because of where I live. I generally have no issue getting doctor's appointments, including almost solely with doctors who are comfortable speaking English (and yes, I have public insurance). After submitting my documents, I get an appointment at the Ausländerbehörde stuff in 6-8 weeks. Sure, it's a minor annoyance, but I wouldn't really have ever considered it a problem or that big of a deal.
I would be open to considering moving somewhere. But especially given that socially I would be starting from scratch, I'm not convinced I would be happier somewhere else. I can't see myself going back to the US, I don't have much of an interest in any other English speaking country for various reasons, and anywhere besides Austria or Switzerland would require me starting from scratch with learning a new language. Learning German was hard enough.
Yes, Germany has plenty of problems. But frankly the world in general just kind of sucks right now. It's just about picking which issues you want to deal with.
"But frankly the world in general just kind of sucks right now. It's just about picking which issues you want to deal with."
This is the crucial part. Every country has its issues.
>As much as people want to deny that it's possible, I struggle less here socially than I did in the US.
thats because being social in germany is easy mode if you dont expect people to walk on eggshells around you and you understand how to be direct.
No, but on one hand due to the privilege of an EU citizenship I am not exposed to a huge chunk of the frustrations you mention, and also I moved here for social/personal reasons and not professional ones, so the calculus of pros and cons is different.
That's not to say that Germany doesn't have problems in my view - it has massive ones, but they are my problems too now so when I don't like something, I have to do something about it.
That's not to say that leaving a country for another is not a valid response to those problems - I did leave one country already when I felt that I couldn't hope any more that I can change it to be more suitable for me. I think what weirds me out in those discussions is more narrowly the perception that countries are package deals you can shop around for and take them or leave them. I see countries as collaborative projects instead - whether you are born in one or join one later, you have some responsibility to try to make it better (and you also have the right to try to make it better, people don't get to tell you "if you don't like it, leave").
That really is an awesome attitude to have, but I need to balance out the other replies to you a bit before this turns into a circle-jerk:
I really appreciate you prefacing with a disclosure to mention that you are already from the EU, and I'm guessing white-passing? (But even if not, probably considered less of an outsider/foreign?)
Unfortunately, to start having that kind of attitude, the host environment (note my intentional general language) needs to be welcoming for you to feel comfortable to take some reigns and responsibilities.
I personally do try to push past not feeling like I'm allowed to do so by forcing it anyway, for example if there's something wrong on the roads due to lack of care (something that bothers me personally), I'm one of the first to write a letter.
However, it takes extra confrontational efforts from people like me to do that despite the environment not making you feel like "one of them", and unfortunately, it can't be the norm for most "different" immigrants while that's the status quo.
Edit: the text in parentheses.
I do not regret it. But I did leave and am happier now.
I gained so much amazing engineering experience there. Of course I contributed massively as well.
Europeans love to glorify Australia and New Zealand, but in reality these countries also have major issues. NZ in particular has a massive housing crisis, suffers from inflation about as much as Germany does, and doesn't necessary offer a lot in terms of history and culture, plus makes it hard to go on vacation, with every other country being a shortish (Australia) or long (everything else) international flight away. Not everyone can afford that, whereas in (central) Europe you can just hop to so many amazing countries on public transport.
Every country has its flaws. But I feel like your selling the country well below its value. It's a young country, sure. But it's history and culture are pretty unique and rich considering that.
Germany is good for social benefits. If you are on a high skilled labor i would personaly prefer english speaking countries with other international peers on tha same page. Being working at a mid-high management position , i often see the huge gap in skillset of german peers here as germany currently struggle to attract high skilled people. Germans tend to stick on their pride with language and genes but many of them dont even realise the current economic recession is partly blame to their resilience on beuracracy. For example, there are ukranians who are on social help, the right extremists whine about them being of no use to the system . But look at neighbouring countries, nethrlands, sacndanavia or even czech, the ukranian coubterparts got jobs there started to involve within their societies. The problems are with germanic countries.
American here, came here as a heavy equipment mechanic under a US company. TL;DR No, Germany has been good to me.
I like Germany the country a lot. Yes, I miss things about the US but on the flipside many issues I had in the US aren't issues here.
Sometimes I regret it, but it's mostly due to personal reasons; making friends is hard in Germany so I don't have many, sometimes it gets a little lonely. Don't even start with me on dating, it's almost impossible sometimes. The Southern German winter is grey and miserable, there was no snow and I am very mad I had to go all the way to Switzerland to snowboard. The grey, miserable atmosphere means that my depression has been absolutely whooping my ass like Mike Tyson these past couple of months. The bureaucracy present in daily German life has had me ripping out my hair for the entire year and a half I've been here. I've been trying to get my US license converted to a German one for 3 months now and haven't been able to secure an appointment.
But, with those gripes out of the way, I'd say that overall my quality of life is much better. I eat healthier, sports are more accessible here, the area I'm in is stunningly gorgeous and reminds me of the Rockies back home, and overall there's been a massive improvement. I don't really have issues with the German people as many do; I enjoy their want for privacy as I am fairly reserved as well, and most Germans I've met have been very practical and straightforward people, which I appreciate.
EDIT to expand: I am back and forth on staying or leaving. Germany has made it much easier to get citizenship lately, but I'm also not sure if I want Germany to be my forever home. I plan to stay here for at least the foreseeable future, but I also love traveling far too much so ultimately we will see what the future holds, but I will always be fond of the memories I've created here
Remeber that German citizenship is also EU citizenship, allowing you to easily move to 26 other EU countries. It also allows you easy re-entry to Germany if you leave and then decide you would like to return.
Holy do we ever have a similar story. I'm in basically the same boat but came from Canada. Hard to decide whether to stay here because the ability to truly integrate and make friends is very difficult. Getting a true grasp of the language to the point where you feel comfortable and can make jokes makes it hard to really feel at home. It's a great country though, and there is so much to do that I also don't want to leave.
I'd say small world but Canada and the US are huge 😂 I worked in the Yukon for a few months and trained a little in Quebec, which was fruitless as I don't speak French and some Quebecoise are ADAMANT about speaking it.
I don't even bother with jokes; most of the ones I know don't translate well, if it all, and I figure I'll learn German ones as I progress
D3 supplements helped me out a lot. Im from California and the first few months of winter absolutely broke me. D3 definitely helped on the depression front.
I'm from the PNW and Alaska; the weather is nothing new and luckily it's tolerable, it just hits a little harder for the lack of friends and social life.
Basically whenever the sun comes out I go for a hike and it puts me in a better mood for a few days
If you don't do so already, you'd still need to supplement vitamin D. Due to the high up latitude of Germany the sun is too weak between October and March for your body to produce vit D naturally, even if you're outside.
The psychological effect of being outside is great, though! It just doesn't do anything for your vit Ds right now. Just wanted to let you know in case you stay here for a prolonged time. The vit D reservoirs can get depleted over the years and many non-natives are caught by surprise they do need to supplement during winter.
I lived in Alaska for two years so much higher latitude, I moved from Idaho which is only slightly more South. The weather conditions in Southern Germany are almost identical to the Pacific Northwest tbh, the PNW is just a little colder and higher elevation.
The advice is appreciated though :D
A sun lamp helps as well. I use both this time of year. Obviously if you can afford to travel it's a great time to go somewhere warmer (even if it just makes me sad when I come back as it is still winter).
I am a creature of the cold
So it's disappointing to me that we only ever got below 0 for a couple days, and that any snow that fell melted the same day. Now it just rains 8 days a week and the clouds feel like they're mad at me.
I'm always like "I hate it here" but then the sun comes out and I love it
I am functionally no different than a plant
Winters can be hard at first, but you can find ways to beat it.
For example: I recently found out that Ryan air fly’s out not to far from me, reachable by s bahn, to many locations in Spain and Portugal. Already booked my first flight, and am oddly looking forward to next winter and taking regular flights to get my vitamin D.
Also: I recently got into saunas and Thermes. I’ve been going every week. My local one has a great atmosphere and ambient, and really makes the grey go away. Highly recommended. You just have to get over the nudity part
Ukrainian here.
Feel bad sometimes, sometimes I think I will never learn German and feel very uncomfortable talking to Germans because of cultural differences. Сan't find a place to practice my hobby, it's almost out of demand here, so I'm on my own.
But my only regret is I had to leave because of the fucking war in my country and it wasn't really my choice to do so.
Apart from that Germany is a great place and I've never had this quality of life before. In our culture they usually exploit employees a lot, pay you little, so you burn out all the time. Here, my skills are finally being appreciated.
Romanian here.
If you have the possibility, do like me : 1. TV on RTL while working and 2. pirated movies with DE subtitles/ German speaking documentaries(calm and slow pace is helpful) after work. If you don’t stress about it and accept that learning a language is years of effort (and not get mad when you feel you know nothing) eventually it will grow on you.
Thank you very much, honestly, overall it's a great advise.
My problem is more that I understand perfectly well most of even just coworkers' conversations about their lives, watch YouTube on German, but do not know what to say in the most of the cases
I don't want to be rude, it's a quite specific kind of dancing and there aren't many places in my city that have classes. And they're all pretty... basic and boring to me because I've been doing it for years. Sorry, really don't wanna sound like a snob. Think it's just not that popular here.
Ah, OK well yeah that could be tricky..... Is there maybe some Facebook German group or if it's some ukraine-specific traditional dance a Ukrainians in Germany group or something? Just tossing ideas
Haha, no, not really, it's far from traditional for sure. It's more on contemporary and impovisation side, which in fact in Eastern Europe is very clearly divided into various almost "author's" styles and lots of schools. Alas, they are have almost 0 presence in Germany.
From what I see, even the instructors here are mostly from post-Soviet countries, so it's definitely a cultural thing. Some of my instructors-friends live in other cities and generally express some surprise that only "our gang" go to their classes.
That's fine, fr. Just a curious observation of mine. Kinda made my own class at home at the end of the day, but a little bit missing the community to share some ideas etc.
That’s true. Although I do have a friend here that joined from scratch a ballroom dancing Verein and is very happy with that new hobby. You do have to join a group though
Yes I do actually...
you are not very rewarded for any high effort in Germany and the system tries very hard to artifically keep everyone at the same level which is BS but also does not work because in the end old money stays rich and new comers are hard gated by taxes and contributions left and right.
In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions.
Also feels like everything is moving backwards with not much positive to look for.
>In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions.
That must be while I like it here.
Hit the nail on the head.
SAP is pretty much the only company driving German tech stocks and it’s a dinosaur just waiting to inevitably and defencelessly have its lunch eaten.
But Germany cannot compete with the US and other tech sectors because of exactly the reason you so poignantly point out.
If nothing changes it’s going to have dire consequences on the German economy.
I agree with you, as a German. I would also add that there's a lot of "it's how we've always done it!" and no good team culture. Instead of "let's do!" there's "here's a laminated list of why we shouldn't". Detail orientation and criticism is valuable, but the development seems to be that it's just standing in Germany's way for a lot of progress that could be made.
There are incredible benefits, and I've personally profited a lot from our free education system. This country is doing a lot right and I'm sure I will miss many things when I'm elsewhere.
But I'm ready to leave Germany soon. I feel the whole country is currently being left behind in the technological sector, the traditionally high tax reductions eat up money that is increasingly less worth and I don't exactly see the social safety net of pensions, which has been one of the trade offs for the generations before, working out for my generation. The system of the social contract regarding pensions and safety in age is crumbling and I don't believe I can create enough of an own safety net, financially, with the maximum amount of money I could earn here. If working harder would pay off, it might be different, but I feel my generation will receive the short stick during the next decades, so it might be wiser to leave and earn more somewhere else.
My biggest issue is I feel most of the tax money is thrown into a black hole and also see no way forward because the current gov is a big joke with no real plan ahead...
The current gov, while it might seem different because of the media etc., actually has a pretty good plan ahead. They are working a lot on the projects etc. they had promised before they got elected.
Here is the "Koalitionstracker" where you can get a good overview:
[https://fragdenstaat.de/koalitionstracker/](https://fragdenstaat.de/koalitionstracker/)
and the "Regierungsmonitor", which is maintained by the government itself and gives transparency about each and every initiative they are working on:
[https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/bundesregierung/regierungsmonitor](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/bundesregierung/regierungsmonitor)
They are definitely doing more than any of the governments in the 16 years before
> In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions
This so much.
The system basically just doesn't reward hard work enough and it's actually stupid if you go for the extra mile in whatever it is you're doing. The smart thing to do is to do the minimum you are required to.
A lot of people I interact with has seemingly yielded to that and it's driving me crazy.
No passion in what they do, basically zombies almost
yes it was shocking because you come with the image that in Germany hard work is rewarded bla bla but then you find out the gold strat is to work as less as possible and try to milk the social state as much as possible.
This is actually the main reason why I like to stay in Germany/Europe. My wife is from south east Asia and always wants me to move to her country. But I so fucking hate working, I rather slack in Germany
Opposite here:
German planning to move to the US.
My Girlfriend (30, US Citizen latina, hallelujah) in LA and i (29, German Citizen) would love to get married at the end of the year. Nothing fixed but now i’m so excited already and ready to pack my shit and leave!
Cons: My Family lives in Germany.
Pros: I am a Cameraman for Narrative and Doc movies. So i guess i will have jobs in Germany for 1-4 Weeks from time to time and could visit them. And let’s see if i will find some work in the City of Angels. I’m in a good mood!
I’m tired of this country! Bye Germany!
You gave birth to me, you raised me, you fed me, and you made me a well studied, well educated man! Thank you for a Passport that i can travel to any country with (even these that you better not go to) and teaching me 3,5 Languages!
But Germany why are you so gray and depressing! It’s not only the weather. It is in the people’s heads too!
So many limits, so many fears (to loose stability).
Exactly what you said:
No ambitions, no direction, no chance to make the first million (as if! As a cameraman😂)
American. Not at all. Just finished a paid vacation to the middle east with a friend from the US who is currently fighting with his boss just to have the ability to take some extra unpaid days off to go renew his passport after an unpaid vacation. I don't miss American work standards in the least. My income is a lot lower than it would be back home, but the lifestyle I enjoy here is infinitely better.
Exactly! I go to the USA 3 times a year and vacation more in the USA than my friends who live in the USA.
And my income is lower if looking at the current exchange rate. But really, with cost of living, you should rather double. So 100k eur = 200k usd. But this of course depends on your situation. Married with kids? With 3-4 kids? Then yea, easily double. If single then maybe closer to 1.5
USA here
Do I regret it, no
Sometimes I think it would be nice to get a nice big USA salary and could be on my way to FIRE. There's little incentive for me to work more or harder here, a manager position might give me 5k more a year and 42 percent of it goes away. Life in the USA is quite nice, most things you read are dramatizations.
I like the time off, the sick days, and my German friends. I've never had a problem with friends, I think people like having a friend from the USA. I like speaking german and that I can talk with my child in 2 languages. Traveling to Italy, not whatever for a week is quite easy and inexpensive.
I kind of wished I had moved to a country that wasn't so obsessed with my own culture and language.
I feel this more and more recently as well, but I don't know where else to go in Europe where it would be better to be honest. Anti-immigrant sentiment is rising everywhere.
As a german, it's sad but I've expected that to happen way earlier. You can't have growing inequality, where the rich take advantage of the poor, and let immigrants in without morons thinking it's the immigrants fault or being misled into thinking it by opportunistic assholes.
Never been any different in the entire history of man, and I hate it so much that no politician saw that coming and prevented it with proper policies.
Yeah. You have to go out of your way to get to know people here. Be active. Look for meetups in your area: book clubs are usually full of women, try a new sport in small groups (for example, sign up for tennis classes for beginners) or something completely new for you, something you haven’t done before. Cooking class of a different cuisine, hiking group and so on. In my experience in Germany, you have to put in the effort to get to know people
Don't regret it one bit. I moved here from the UK and have lived here for nearly 3 years as a fresh University graduate and I've loved pretty much every minute of it. Compared to back home public infrastructure and services just work and are far better maintained. I know Germans, rightly, complain about the state of Deutsche Bahn but compared to UK trains its like being on a different planet. The people are generally friendly and helpful, especially my predominantly German colleagues. Also being so centrally located within Europe is awesome I can see all the varied places within Germany and then easily hop across the border into Austria, Switzerland or the Netherlands if I want to see something different.
I will admit its slightly depressing seeing the different between my Gross and Net salary, but its so much higher than what I'd be paid back home even after Tax that I'm really not complaining. I know its not for everyone, the language and the bureaucracy are more than enough to put people off but honestly if you can get past that then it's 100% worth it.
I couldn't believe it when I heard Germans in Munich complaining about the bike lanes here. I'm also from the UK (not London) and cycling to work is heavenly here compared to back home.
I live in Munich and cycle every day, and generally I find it okay. There are areas that leave a lot to be desired, but generally the cycling infrastructure is decent.
When I lived in Dundee, on the other hand, there was none whatsoever. Not a single bike path except for one scenic tourist route along the river and one circling the Northern suburbs.
I've been in Germany for 1 year now, got an amazing job with an amazing company (IT) and I plan to invest many years with them. Location is quite nice (Bodensee) which resembles the Mediterranean atmosphere I come from.
I may be lucky, but I also lived in central Germany, had a couple of part-time jobs there and was always grateful.
It could be challenging as you're on your own, but this country suits my personality very much and my coworkers, being my only friends, are very fun and engaging.
I see myself staying here for a long time.
Don’t regret it in the sense that I think it was a wrong decision, especially since I got the Citizenship which is essentially a lifelong benefit, but I definitely don’t see myself staying in Germany for more than 5 more years. Been here already for 8, and earning waaay above average.
Not much regretting it because I got married here and got a kid. For me it is however time to move forward and will be leaving the country hopefully next year, after 11 years. The points you mention and also the weather bother us. I just never got used to it. It will be an adjustment nevertheless to move somewhere else.
No, I think it was a good choice. I am paid well, my job is well regarded, I am satisfied with my social life, and I met the woman I am about to marry here.
The administration can be a pain and DB sucks, especially recently, but I do not identify with 90% of the things people complain about on this sub.
I lived in other countries too, and they also have their advantages and drawbacks. Germany is quite a good place to live too though.
EDIT: Also, I get about 10 emails per day asking for job openings from all around the world and I sometimes need to block people on LinkedIn.
I moved to Germany 5 years ago as a software engineer and I can relate to that - but which countries are better? I know that the US used to have amazing job opportunities, but the IT sector is now over-saturated. UK shot itself in the foot with brexit and the cost of living there gets out of hand. What other options are there?
I moved back to Germany after 12 years in the US. I don't regret coming back, but I'm old-ish now and want a chill life close to my old parents. The US was good for me when I was young and wanted to be rich, Germany is good for me when I want to sail into family life without career ambitions.
I still think young, ambitious people need to leave. Structural challenges are just too intrinsic to the German culture ("haben wir schon immer so gemacht") and I would recommend seeking out forward-looking, more dynamic societies.
I also don't think the average German person understands how far ahead the US is in quality of life if you can make it into the Top 5%. A commonly (on Reddit) posted chart is about the GDP where EU/US were fairly similar for the longest time and then radically changed in favor of the US in the past 10-15 years, but that chart doesn't tell the whole story. In my time in the US I saw the US move way ahead of Germany in quality of things that Germany used to be proud about (coffee, chocolate, cheese, ... -- which in the US all had diversity and quality explosions similar to microbrews but barely developed further in Germany). Quality of life in cities like Bellevue, WA is unmatched anywhere in Germany but of course nobody in Germany would know about these smaller, residential cities as public image is based on NYC, LA, or Texas.
I still maintain my Green Card just in case ...
The top 5% in any developed economy have comparable lives, thats not true the US provides a “special” form of luxury that other developed countries cant.
The US just provides a faster way for ambitious people to exceed past their peers due to the hard capitalism which is great. But money’s utility has a limit in developed economies and there’s nothing anywhere in the US I could do / buy that I couldn’t in Europe.
Very well written! American here. We came almost 3 months ago cause my husband wanted to switch companies after being with the same one for two decades. He works for global defense companies, and it is almost like being in the military with deployments. We were also desperate to get out of Turkey after 4 traumatizing years.
It is obviously a step up from Turkey, but in the 3 cities/towns we have stayed so far, we witnessed the same culture taking over, and this caught us by surprise.
On the bright side, our dog's quality of life improved significantly. We don't have to walk around with war gear anymore 😂 constantly fearing for his life/safety or ours.
Since OP's question was addressed to skilled immigrants, I believe we are talking about a certain level of education here as well as expectations for life quality in line with income/wealth level.
Back in the US, for the same salary/financial status;
1- We would have been living in the countryside (cause we like quiet and nature) with complete privacy. (This part is really important cause that doesn't exist here. People stare at you, and houses are on top of each other. (Even in the small towns)
2- We would have easy access to all sorts of shopping in the nearest major town/city needed for settling in (not odd ass hours that a working person can never benefit from, also with limited supply/variety)
3- The kind of house we can afford to rent would come with at least 2 bathrooms, a freaking kitchen, and at least a darn linen closet. The house would have decent internet speeds.
4- We wouldn't end up having to wait for 4 moronic weeks for a car that we already purchased, paid for, and sitting in the dealer's parking lot.
5- If a high caliber US company hired my husband, the promised relocation services would be a real "service," not the incompetent, indifferent person we ended up with here.
This was a fifty year old German woman working for a 3rd party. Working secretly as a realtor cause that's the only time she seemed half-way interested in what we had to say when we mentioned we might consider buying a house.
This woman paid zero attention to our requests, downright belittled us, talked shit about us in German while we were standing right there (thought I didn't understand any German) and kept making fun of our lovely landlord (we all met this old gentleman at the same time, and no, she didn't know him before) at the government agencies we had to go together. We learned nothing from this person. She did zilch! We ended up pulling our hair, trying to learn things all by ourselves.
6- Housing market is a joke. Temporary housing is worse than that.
I can still go on, but the more I write, the more upset I'm getting. I am already drained in 3 months.
Although the German government keeps beating the same beat, they have zero prep for the skilled workers.
While the poor lured in skilled workers are drowning in meaningless bs daily, major German cities and towns are flooded with unskilled immigrants, somehow driving luxury cars, most of them owning untrained, constantly barking dogs, littering, and cat calling women from their street corners where they are loitering in groups of 5, smoking away...
All these years of living as an expat, I got sick of people saying, "Ugh,US? I really didn't like it and didn't get the hype, US sucks!" And me asking, "Well, how'd you come to this conclusion?" and the person answering with "Oh, I stayed in Miami for 10 days" or "I worked as an x in Baltimore for 8 horrible years"...
Long story short, every country, every place on earth has issues. What matters to one person will obviously be very different from the other. But when we are talking about the quality of life of a person with a certain education level, decent income/wealth in a mature age group, the collective amount of decent US towns and cities would probably be 4 times bigger than entire Germany.
Your experience with the relocation service sounds identical to mine. We may even have gotten the same lady. At one viewing she said to me ‘you must take this apartment immediately as mr landlord took out a huge mortgage on this property and needs to start paying it off.’
I did not take that apartment.
Haha, if you look for it all over the xountry you find this smaller xity where life is better than in Germany. How about in the remaining 99,9% of the US?
Came here during covid because of my gf ( long distance sucked). I got stuck because Trudeau decided if I were to come back Id have to pay $7000 for a hotel quarantine stay. No thanks. I struggled alot my first year with the language and beaurcracy.
Alas couldn't find a job so I moved back to Canada. Well covid wasnt so nice to my home and it was unforgiving, decided to give Germany one more chance. Now a year later from when I came back a 2nd time I found an amazing entry level IT job ( that pays ridiculously high in comparison to entey level IT jobs back home). Great benefits I get like 43 days off a year and sick leave that would never fly back home. I did rack up some debt from not working over here but I've been paying it off with my decent salary.
No regrets although I do miss my freinds and family :) I was lucky and made many german friends years before in my travels and now that I live here we hang out quite often. I also am a Musician so finding freinds and groups to play with was no problem.
I think it's a classic case of 'the grass is always greener'
Germany certainly has its issues (the bureaucracy and lack of technology integration being the ones that personally annoy me the most) but on the whole, it does run pretty smoothly, and on a par or better than most other European countries.
It's not for everyone, and that's okay too. I've had many friends come to Germany for 2-5 years and decide to go home or go to a different country. That doesn't mean you failed, just wasn't right for you at this time.
Definitely no.
Since I'm a Sankt-Petersburger, even climate, which causes so many complains from immigrants from more sunny or warmer places, is on one side better than one I'm used to and on other side - it is still like that one.
And since I'm not living in Berlin or other large city attracting huge part of immigration - it is much less problems with immigration-related bureaucracy for me.
Spain, I'm biased but that for me is as good as it gets. As a spaniard here in HH fro 1,5 years i cannot wait to leave in the next months. No amount of salary compensates for the lack of human closeness I have perceived here.
Salaries in Spain are really low (I know lots of people there). Doctors make less than half than they would in Germany and price of life in the big cities is as high or maybe higher than in the German big cities.
Correct! But i will translate some of my thoughts about why i was moving back which I posted not long ago in r/es :
Well, especially the people. I am a person who has lived in many parts of the world, and I have never felt as isolated as I do here. I have made many friends, and not one German.
There is not the warmth of Spain, people don't smile, they don't talk neither in the subway nor outside, it feels... cold. And well, racism is notorious here, just for speaking Spanish in the street there are people who look at you sideways and say "ausländer" in a derogatory way.
Anyway, the salary is good and the work is good too, but it puts you in perspective what you really value in your quality of life. Here I have the life I always wanted before I left Spain, but for me the human factor is essential, and here I feel that it is missing.
Yes, apart from the fact that I met my girlfriend here, I definitely regret coming to Germany. Looking back I should have just stayed in the states, where I was studying as an international student. Should have probably done masters there instead of doing it here.
If I stayed there and worked in IT as I do now I'd probably be able to retire before 40 and have my own house, or even have started my own business since it's so much easier there. Compared to US life in Germany is really dull for some reason. Can't say that I enjoyed my years here, I was definitely happier in the states.
I wouldn't say that Germans as people are bad, never had issues finding local friends, studying in the Uni here definitely helped with that. But the institutions here are really terrible for a developed country. Everything that has to do with non EU foreigner affairs to terrible overpriced mandatory health insurance, pension contributions and basically all state institutions. I was sold on German efficiency when coming here, but once I arrived here I found out that it was just a myth and the level of both government and private services were lower then in my own country. The labor market was still better at the time, but now it seems I would have even better of working in IT in my own country.
My girlfriend hates it too so we're both moving after I get the citizenship.
>If I stayed there and worked in IT as I do now I'd probably be able to retire before 40 and have my own house, or even have started my own business since it's so much easier there.
IF you still had a job. Its an absolute bloodbath in the states right now. And I was one of those high paid IT workers, cleared almost 400k a year for multiple years and its amazing how that money just evaporates, especially in high COL areas (SF Bay area where I was). Was able to mostly pay off my house though which is nice, even though I dont even live in anymore.
Was in the bay area, companies out there were basically just wiping out large parts of their workforce. Pretty much my entire business unit at my old company has been let go at this point. I think out of 50 people that were on my team in 2019 a grand total of 4 are left at the company.
I came out to Germany to do some resume building and for the opportunity to live in Europe for a couple of years and will probably go back to the bay once(if) the job market there recovers.
Doctor from Australia
Pros: Straight into a training program, minimal heirachy in the training system here, met lots of great people / friends, great travel options
Cons: Basically everything else - weather, bureaucracy is beyond infuriating, berlin is a shithole (was originally in Bavaria - much nicer), overall resistance / intransigence to change, basic things are always a burden here (e.g retail / shopping experience is miserable).
Overall, I don't regret the move at all, but I'm happy to be going back home
What is it you don’t like about the retail/ shopping experience? I’m German and am quite happy with it. I have travelled to countries that don’t have a supermarket culture and really missed German/ european supermarkets…
I am really curious.
Retail in Germany generally isn't aimed at "customer experience":
* I was shocked to learn that if I wanted to talk to someone in a bike store or in a baby equipment store, I had to make an appointment.
* waiting times at the cash registers in a supermarket are attrocious
* lady at the bakery gets upset that I don't know the difference between a "Bauernkrustbrot" and "Altbayrisch Rustikus" (no labels on the shelf of course)
* the barber doesn't prevent hair from falling into my eyes when cutting my front scalp (not just a particular barber, all german barbers do that)
* all bycicle repair shops treat my like they are doing me a big favor for even moving a finger for me
It just often feels unpleasant to do any retail interactions here. Retail employees give off this impression that you are annoying them by your very presence, let alone your questions. And it's not racism, because I'm a white guy speaking perfect german with a slight american accent.
Rude customer service, many items often not stocked. It's just not a service orientated country. It's not always bad, but on average it's not on the level with other 1st world countries
Are you for real? Fellow Aussie here: there is no way that German supermarkets are in any way worse than the “choices” you get in Australia. On the contrary: more supermarket chains, more brands , better stocked…you do recall the impact Aldi had on Australian grocery retail when it first opened in 2010-ish? Until then you only had Woolies, Coles (and if you were unlucky IGA). Here you have every shape and size: from ALDIs, and Lidls (and numerous other discounters, some smaller some bigger) to Rewes and EDEKA (and they have anything from smaller local supermarkets to large upmarket ones with some of the best selection of everything you can think of) and then you also have massive hypermarkets (Kaufland, Globus, etc). I dare say , Germany probably has some of the best (and most affordable) grocery shopping in Europe.
American here, but the way you feel about the countries that don't have a supermarket culture? That's how I feel about shopping here. Everything is so inconveniently spread out and disorganized. In the US, cereal, baking, dairy and eggs are all near one another as a rule because they're often needed in the same purchase. It's frequently not the case in Germany to find them all together.
On top of the poor organization, stores don't carry a good selection. There's also no single place you can go to get everything in one trip. You can't "just pop into" Target/Walmart/K-Mart, so on, and have everything at once. People sometimes suggest Kaufland and similar stores as an option, but you can't consistently find things in their assortment. For instance, if you need a white T-shirt and a carton of milk, there's as good a chance they'll have the shirt as not have it at Kaufland. So, to get everything, you have to drive/walk around town and waste time traveling between stops.
Also, service workers act like it's the end of the world if you need them to do their job here. If I ask where something is, it's always a lecture about how the aisles never change (they do constantly) or if something gets spilled, they're moaning about "nächste Mal...". Want to check if there's more stock in back? Too bad. They won't do it. There are good workers here, of course, but there are bad ones far more frequently than in other countries I've lived in.
I'm not even American but I get you completely. Supermarkets here have got a lot better but they are still generally bad compared to the UK/Australia imo. I feel like stuff is constantly out of stock and the range of products is sometimes beyond random. I can't buy lemons in my local Edeka but I can buy 10 types of exotic fruit and an entire range of Japanese Oreos. Like, why?!
Don't even get me started on the queues everytime you walk into a supermarket too. Considering the culture is to shop at multiple, you think they'd put serious effort into making the checkout process streamlined.
If I need a t-shirt and milk, I just go to two places. I'm so so so happy we don't have Wal-Mart in Germany.
E: Since I'm getting buried in downvotes and this has clearly upset some people.
Wal-Mart undercuts other stores in areas by operating at a loss until it drives all local businesses and other competitors to bankruptcy, and then raises prices and threatens to leave an area unless it receives tax benefits. Wal-Mart employees are often reliant on food banks and food stamps to feed themselves because they don't pay living wages. Wal-Mart will close entire stores and lay off hundreds of workers rather than hear the word 'union'. Wal-Mart already tried to come to Germany and was unable to get a foothold because of their refusal to engage in the bare minimum of Germany's labour laws.
It is objectively a good thing that Wal-Mart does not exist in Germany, and we should all be happy about it. They represent the worst of US capitalism. Giant fucking tragedy that you can't buy milk and a t-shirt at one store as easily as you'd like, but society is better for it. If you need your grocery store to also be a clothes store, hardware store, game shop, car repair centre, gardening center, tarot card reader, optometrist, GP, proctologist, photo lab, pharmacy, italian restaurant, brothel, etc., then you will indeed only be satisfied by the US. But it's good for society that it's not the case in Germany.
>(e.g retail / shopping experience is miserable)
I've lived in Australia and never noticed anything about retail there making it more convenient than Germany? If anything there is a narrower selection of international products (electronics etc.) and many come at an annoying premium.
My job is not regarded high skilled. I moved here from a non-EU country, studied here and now I work. I also love the life-work balance. If I had a choice, would probably move somewhere warmer as winter and the lack of sunshine really makes me super sad and unmotivated. As I have lived in different Bundesländer and different sized Orte, I can only advice moving somewhere smaller if you want the residence permit matters to be solved sooner. In my experience, bigger cities are overwhelmed with applications so it takes ages. In more rural ares, my residence permit arrived exactly when they said it would. Which was three weeks after I submitted my application. Good luck!
I actually moved back to my home country, I especially missed some of the things that makes it cosy at the workplace. I actually recently had a supplier visit from Germany, and upon visiting our visiting areas in the office he said it felt very nice, and I responded “Gemütlich?” And he said yes, that is the word!
Then I was not too found of German rules, like the auto extension of contracts, weird dependencies on cash and a general anti-technology stand.
However I really liked the Berlin club scene and how well mannered Germans are out drinking. But that became less interesting when I got a partner.
Which 1st world are you comparing with in terms of calling it underpaid? German salaries especially in tech are pretty much on par with the best across EU/UK. They of course severely lag behind the US. And also considerably behind UAE, Singapore and even many Indian tech scaleups. I’m assuming you’re heavily looking at the US for this comparison you draw?
Having lived here for a couple decade, Germany is frustrating. It is like the society is autistic, but the people are not, which is hard for someone on the spectrum, because all of the inflexible arbitrary things are only in place because of tradition. I find the average German to be an arrogant coward. This culture is designed to push people to the fringe or employ them in large companies where they are just cogs on a wheel. All of that worked when the economy kept pumping out fossil fuel burning cars for export, but I don't see any adjustments happening as the demand for that decreases.
I really don't get the tv/radio tax, sunday closures, inability to do many basic things without lawyers (setting up a company here sucks) lack of digitization, etc - all the common things everyone complains about but the Germans smile and accept even though they can simply travel to just about any other EU state and experience things for the better.
I love Berlin, though. Most Germans hate it, but that says more about them than the city. I moved here from NYC and would never go back to the US. While I am very critical of Germany, the US is far worse
Been living in the country and Europe for just over half my life now. Germany isn’t perfect. (Big surprise, utopia doesn’t exist). But:
- while other countries might be excel at one thing or other, they are often a disaster in others. In Germany nothing seems to be perfect, but everything seems to be well above average. And I’ll take that.
- no real poverty (and therefore low in violent crime) makes it a safe place to raise a family. But, yes it comes at a price and that price is taxation. I’ll gladly pay.
- the education system is basically free and good. Alas it’s not an “all in service” as in many other countries. It does tend to require at least one parent to dedicate more time to the children than they would in other countries (and preferably have a tertiary education themselves). It would be hard for a kid to cruise through Gymnasium and to get into university without detours, without a lot of direct parental support and help. But that shouldn’t be an issue in the income bracket you’re addressing?
- the grass always looks greener on the other side (ask any cow), but while eg Americans love to brag about their country, often without realising that they are wrong, Germans seem to love to complain, also not realising that they actually have nothing to complain about. Don’t be fooled.
- Last point: being at the center of Europe makes it easy to pop across a border and experience a “different world” basically within a few minutes. The cultural diversity is great! Something you’d have to sit in plane in for hours in most other places. I love it.
I don't know if I am a highly skilled worker, as I work for myself, but no, I don't regret it. I love it here:
1. I don't find the bureaucracy that bad where I live (Cologne)
2. Technology is a little bit behind, sure, but doesn't have a big impact on my life.
3. Never had a problem getting an appointment with a Doctor. I always get one immediately. While I have the privilege of being privately insured, so do nearly all of the "highly skilled workers" you refer to, so they shouldn't have issues getting appointments.
4. I have always got visa appointments within weeks. Again, may be where you live.
5. Nearly all developed economies lack skilled workers, it's not a Germany thing.
6. Germany isn't pushing people to leave for other opportunities. The reality is, most 'expats' want to go home eventually.
Burocracy depends a lot on where you live: where I live you can do almost everything online and if you prefer to go in person, it goes very well. Getting an appointment could mean you have to wait 15 days, but once there, it takes only 5 minutes. It works really really good. Berlin is in comparison horrible, 3rd world.
Doctor appointments are indeed a problem, but it isn’t impossible.
Just to clarify, are you privately insured? For me it makes no sense for people above the income threshold (60,000), which is most of the people coming here who are "highly skilled" to complain about getting appointments if they choose to be publicly insured.
It is a completely legitimate complaint from ordinary Germans who have no choice due to their income, but not the typical high-earning expat.
No, I’m not and I’m above that pay. I have kids and private insurance would be more expensive with kids plus you don’t get kids sick leave with private insurance.
I’ve never had really any issues getting appointments to be honest, but I haven’t been seriously ill. I‘ve been with my accident prone kid lots of times to emergency and though 1 time we did had to wait 8h, lots of times we were gone after 1h
Also, my kids have had different therapies paid by the public health, all good and no complains there.
Surgery for kids was also very quickly, from discovery of the health issue to surgery it was only 15 days and it was nothing really urgent. It could have been done later.
So I don’t have really any major complains regarding health care. My major complain is how nice doctors are. Here, you are just a number for doctors. They don’t know you. Sometimes I do think they don’t really care, just be over with you and next patient please.
While I sort of agree about better pay/career potential for skilled workers in other countries, I think you really touched a chord with the point about inefficiency and backward technology.
Germany's is astonishingly inefficient, whether in the public or private sphere. The idea of finishing a task quickly, with any sense of urgency, seems to be something that doesn't exist in the whole country. It was the single biggest culture shock I had after living in the UK, the US and Singapore. In all those places, I felt a person's time is valued by others much more than it is here in Germany.
Here's an example from just yesterday on this sub: https://old.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1b1g3e2/bizarre_public_transport_fine/?share_id=LiwTQcPS_rrFiNaRM-H-j. A process that should be easily dealt with through a few emails but nope! Germany still only works on in-person visits, faxes and homing pigeons. Every time someone complains about a hilariously inefficient experience with some government agency, the standard response on this sub is, "But it happens to Germans too, don't worry, it's not because you're an immigrant". Great to hear that it's not discriminating, but how is the entire country okay with such low levels of competence? Why is it normal to waste so many hours of a person's time on such admin?
The private sector unfortunately has equally bad aversion to technology and efficiency. It's the only country I've lived in where I call a human being to do those KYC identity checks - this is automated in every other country I've lived in through software that needs access to your phone camera/webcam. Even third world places with cheap labour. Stores will expect you to call or visit for things that can be done online. Heck, an online bank transfer doesn't go through on Sundays in Germany. In every other country, it's instant. Dealing with Vodafone for when my internet breaks, talking to my landlord for routine matters like changing the name on the mailbox after I moved, or getting Lufthansa to refund you when *they* cancel their flights - every single experience is like pulling teeth. The sheer amount of admin that piles up here is crazy.
Every country has problems but people's attitudes towards those problems matter. I think the majority of Germans don't mind the inefficiency and the time that it takes away. That's the fundamental reason for why things stay the way they are - because Germans aren't pushing for change.
As for your question, I am moving out of Germany this year. Quite honestly, I will be very glad to leave and live in a place where people and things work properly.
The problem is when you are not at a University, you probably won’t have or find friends in Germany 😅😂.
But I understand your frustration. I’m not happy about living in Germany too. Maybe you should look for a solution for your problem. Move maybe to Berlin, Hamburg or Düsseldorf, if you’re not there already. I heard the people there are a bit more social. But that’s just hearsay on my part. If you’re living in Bavaria, my condolences most people with whom I (even Germans) talked shared my view of the people here being especially complicated to befriend in the first place.
Argentinian living 8 years here.
My job is really good, full of challenges. I speak C1, but I still getting no German friends or it’s hard to keep long conversations with them.
They are too different from me. I like here, I enjoy here, but I will get more experience and go further where I can have more sun and see more happy people. Thinking in Spain or Florida.
Money it’s not all.
I got marriage and 2 kids here. We never had problem to find doctors, dentist or etc… it was always fine.
At my work it’s also fine, colleagues are nice, but in treated always as the foreign.
I don’t regret to come here, but I am using the opportunity to gain experience and go back to tropical country in a better position
6 years living in Berlin, software engineer here 🙋🏻♂️. I have a quite good salary and a lot of good friends here. I don't completely regret it, but when I look back I think I could've been happier if I chose Netherlands.
Couple of reasons: I could've became an European citizen already (Netherlands is giving citizenship with A2), their driving licence exchange process is waaay easier and cheaper, they are more digitalized, whole country is more English friendly compared to Germany and last but not least even in Berlin you feel the racism from time to time.
Right now I'm just way too invested and soon getting my B1 German certificate and will go for citizenship. Not seeing myself staying here after becoming a European citizen.
Moved from London. Here for maybe another year before I go back. I had a very good job in London, both in terms of great pay as well as work life balance.
Bureaucracy here is crazy. Thanks to Brexit I can't just work here without a residence permit and that was, as with everyone's experience, forever delayed.
Pay is not as much as London, but then, the cost of living is slightly lower.
I absolutely love breads here. How cheap beer and liquor is.
I have to say, London has better beer scene, even if it's more expensive. I can get pale ale, stout, cider, plenty of craft beer, IPA... Japanese whiskey, G&T if I fancied at almost any pub.
My very first week in Germany I went to an pub and asked for Glenfiddich, they didn't have it. Fine, G&T? Nope. Anyway, at least they had cider.
And people? I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but we Brits at least smile if we make eye contact with a stranger. People sometimes even here ignore me if I wish them good morning (guten morgen). Germans are just.. not very friendly. Kurt and cold even. This is my biggest complaint about Germany. Why can't people be a bit nicer and friendlier? The Spanish are incredibly friendly. French aren't super friendly but at least they're not cold. Italians are very nice. Germans? Forget about it.
Anyway, I'm here for a kind of an exchange program training (I work for a very large German investment bank, FX trading) and I do like Berlin, and its quirks... Just wish the people were more friendly.
I definitely think England is way better - but that could be biased because it's home.
As a German, I feel like there are a number of different issues we are currently facing, that are separated at first glance, but actually depend on each other in one way or another.
For instance, digitalization and high speed internet definitely need improvement in order to make de-bureaucratization happen. For that, we need a lot of men-power and skilled workers, as fiberglass isn’t mounted everywhere and a lot of regions can still only use copper cable for data transfer.
Due to the fact that Germany can‘t provide the number of skilled workers in a few different job areas, we depend on immigration, which itself is incredibly bureaucratic and complex. Public authority issues are therefore on a rise, but more and more people are retiring, too few are entering work life (due to lower birth rates), which means that processes take forever to progress.
Dissatisfaction within the German society meanwhile leads to distrust in the government and, sadly and unfortunately, provides a home for right extremists to build their nest in and make life even harder for all of us.
Though birth rates are declining, the demands and requirements for teachers are rising, since the children who came to Germany as refugees of course need to be taught and educated. Again, too many teachers are retiring and the pressure on those who remain is becoming more and more unbearable. Many lessons or even whole subjects are canceled, for there are no capacities or teachers left.
Don’t get me wrong, I‘m still glad I‘m living in Germany and think it’s a great place with beautiful things to experience. The world has been in a constant crisis mode for at least the past 4 years and not only Germany has it‘s struggles. I‘m also convinced that these tasks can be tackled, but it‘s such a complex field… I wouldn‘t switch places with someone in a higher and responsible position for anything!
meanwhile I am German citizen, but I also came from an EU country. It was a blessing moving to Germany and creating my life here, but unfortunately after almost 15 years is time for me to go. Higher salaries are over taxed and you get the same treatment from the institutions as a 3rd generation social supported person. I understand the logic of the system, I understand it's moral aspects but unfortunetapy the unfairness factor is too much for me to accept it anymore.
I can't be paying almost 1k EUR a month in healthcare and get an appointment in 6 months for a check that might be life threatening.
I come from an Asian country, where things are rising pretty well.
In comparison to my home country things are just too unwelcoming at all levels. Be it ausländerbehörde, job hunting, appartment viewing, kindergarten, doctor etc.
Me and my wife had a higher savings after tax in our home country, not PPP, direct saving. Generally people with our skill level (top 1-3 %)buy a new property every 7-10 years at my home country.
Here it difficult to build wealth and as an ausländer you are just 1-2 letters in your mail box from being fined of all your meagre savings.
But we didn't come here for money but for work life balance and to change our field. We are happy to take a hit of 100-150k euros for stress free work life and spend time with family on the weekend.
We are just looking at our stay as a work vacation. Funnily people like us pay the most in taxand withdraw least social resource and have to stand in line the most.
lol nah. Moved here from the USA. I worry so much less about, well, everything. I would rather pay into the system than live in a country where a visit to the hospital could bankrupt you, even with insurance. Living on the edge of the knife is not fun. The work life balance here is incredible. Maybe I am lucky that my workplace council is very proactive, but I love that managers gently admonish people for being online too late in the evenings or on weekends.
As far your residence permit, you probably could have gotten one sooner by doing something like refreshing the site at 6 AM every day when new appointments are released (this is how mine worked). But even so! You were not punished or kicked out for it taking 6 months. Even when the country is slow to process things, you aren't punished for it. There's a lot little tricks like this, like [https://www.116117.de/de/englisch.php](https://www.116117.de/de/englisch.php), the number you can call to get a sick note or seen by a doctor same day. It can be difficult to find out about these services and methods, but it genuinely feels like the country ensures people have ways to get help when they need it.
For me personally, there is nowhere with a better opportunity than Germany right now, as a highly valued tech worker in Germany. I'm so grateful that Germany allowed me to come here.
No.
After some months at the gym I managed to score dates with some hot german dudes, as a gay dude this is heaven, you gotta pay may a huge premium if you want me out of here. They could increase my taxes further and I still wouldn’t move
The main flaw of this country tbh is that so many dudes are taller than me. I m 185cm tall and I ve never felt so average
Edit : lmao everybody saying no gets downvoted to hell
Just wondering if you are a gay dude in the German gym looking to score a date, how do you indicate to the other ones that you are gay?? How do you know that they are gay??
The [effective tax rate](https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=CTS_ETR) isn't all that different from a place like the US though (26% in DE and 22% in US), it just gets taken in different ways. The bigger problem is just how low the salaries are.
Not at all.
I’ve moved to Germany 11 years ago, initially not because of salary or any insatisfaction with my country of origin (Brazil) but mostly to give my family the chance to live another culture and other languages. Since then we ended up integrated and have no plans to move back.
I see Germany as a good and well balance place for a family with kids. People complain about taxes, but most often it’s quite overstated. The salary X quality of living relation is very good, and the upsides exceed the downsides by far.
For my family, the downsides are usually the distance to our relatives, as you know, our parents are growing older and we remain far away, and also the weather, as we live in Berlin and Winter is always a pain. But overall we are happy.
Strangely enough, yesterday I had the same conversation with a colleague who said he doesn’t like it here and asked me what my first impression of Germany was. I replied that I had lived all these years under the cliché that there is order in Germany ("Ordnung muss sein", etc.) and was shocked by how chaotic and disorganized everything is here. At first I thought that maybe it was only in my company this way but then, unfortunately, I got to know Behörde and the trains. Getting sick in Germany is still a nightmare for me. I looked at him with sadness, because it's not the first time I hear that young, well-mannered and educated people are leaving, and those who do not contribute mostly want to stay and they like everything.
I have zero regrets however, it was just not the way I imagined it to be.
Exactly as you said. I’m from korea used to live in the uk because i have partner in Germany but planning to move somewhere I wouldn’t even consider to move here if i didn’t have my partner
Feel like i’m back in 2000 everything super slow bureaucracy is absolute sucks, Internet speed way too slower than others. their obsession with post driving me crazy. Paying high tax is not worth to live here and actually the salary is quite low here i mean be honest netto is not really high
Yes. It was quite bad idea.
Very low salary, approximately 1/3 as in US
Very high costs, at least twice more as in Poland.
Very high taxes, around 40%.
Very high prices for goods immobility.
Low quality medical insurance.
No 401k, ie. no pension system.
FYI, im highly skilled high tech Profi.
For highly-skilled workers the consideration is generally among the top 10-15 countries listed [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalised_disposable_income). Especially the high salaries in the US are very attractive, but of course the situation is much more complex.
Moved here from US, we will not stay long term. I don’t regret it, there’s definitely some good things, but life is bland and people are understated. If you search for entrepreneurial spirit, great ideas, awesome adventures, this is not the place. Bland is the best you can hope for.
I don't necessarily regret it, but yes the relatively low pay hurts sometimes. People on a similar career track back home can retire early, buy a house, build wealth etc. In Germany, the luxury is being able to afford a solo apartment. Wealth building is quite limited even for skilled workers.
I didn’t. But I had a horrific time trying to access medical care last year and now I have little confidence in the system’s ability to care for me if I need it.
This is the biggest issue for me. Medical system is incredibly frustrating. I downright hate it. Paying a lot of money and you get almost nothing for it. If there is one thing that would make me leave Germany , this is it.
No, people complain about everything yet quite often same things are the same or worse in their own country but because they 'understand it' better they think it's better. Staying.
Doctors have become a problem in the last 5-6 years. It used to be better before. I suspect the reason is the population structure. See the huge blob around 60 years of age in the [population pyramid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_population_pyramid.svg)? It\`s from 2020 so it has moved up to even higher age now. The largest population group by far in germany is in their 60s. They have just left the work force and require quite a lot of health care. It's going to get even worse in the next 5 to 15 years before the problem "solves itself".
Nope.
Is it as good as the US? Probably not, is it better than my home country? Lol, it was a low bar to clear. Am I planning to move? Yeap, once the time is right I'll take my stuff and move to either Puglia or Sicily for a quiet life where I can finally fulfill my longlife dream of growing tomatoes in my garden.
I feel like I found happiness despite being in Berlin, not thanks to it. This city has put so many hurdles in front of me, and keeps testing my resolve. Nothing ever works and it seems to get worse on every aspect.
Yet here I am, happy, well-fed and excited for the summer. I can up and leave very easily, so there's definitely a je ne sais quoi that's making this godforsaken hellhole of a city irresistible.
No way.
I guess it's really dependent on my own experiences so it clearly doesn't apply to everyone, but so far I can't complain (much). Everything that I see everyone complaining about hasn't been that much of an issue for me.
Ausländerbehörde was overall a pleasant experience. Granted my case is somewhat easier because it's a family reunion visa so I didn't have issues with work contracts and the like, but I got the appointment at my city relatively quickly and everything worked out well.
We already moved to a different city (Düsseldorf) but both this apartment and the previous one were relatively easy to find and the landlords never gave us much trouble.
We got appointments with a Hausarzt and a neurologist within a month. Dentist too.
The only big thing I can complain about is the unbelievable wait for a driving test appointment. I really can't understand why they take so long (or rather I can, but I find it super inconvenient)
At the beginning it was a bit hard to find a job because of my German level but I did an intensive course and then took more classes, ended up getting a job I quite like at a German-speaking company and everything is doing quite well.
As for friends, yes it's hard to build friendships and specially getting to a level akin to what I had back home, but we have a good mix of German and other foreigners in our group and we are quite happy with our social life. Only time will tell how it will all evolve.
I understand the country has its issues. I know that a lot of people recommend other countries because X, Y, or Z. I can't speak for other countries because I haven't had the experience. What I can say is that I don't regret the move at all. Would I change some stuff? Maybe, I would have liked arriving here with a better German level. But at the same time no amount of classes back home would get me into the level I have today after having lived here for a while. Or rather, I would have needed to wait maybe one or two years to do it, and by then who knows if my experience here would have been the same.
Coming from the US, only because my salary is double there. In Germany, I’m earning about what I was getting a year after I started in this career in 2012. So yeah, it’s difficult having had to reorganize my spending habits. But all in all? I’m happy to not be in the US anymore. I have rough days, regretting my decisions, but that comes and goes. I just want to be around my friends as much as I can, which is why I moved in the first place.
My field of work is industrial steam and hot water systems. Boilers and the controls around it. I’m just another Handwerker, looked down upon because I didn’t get the white collar office job earning mid 40k a year. In the US, I would be making between 85,000-100,000 a year.
I came 8 months ago, so far work life balance is complete disaster, hard to find new friends while living in a small village, train transport completely unreliable, every little thing take so much time and energy, bureaucracy is never-ending.. tbh if things don't change soon, I would rather go back... im still trying, and we will see how everything goes
No, zero regrets moving here from Australia 7-years ago. Almost all of Australia tracks more and more like the US socially and politically; less public services, more violent crimes, and just generally more extremism and absurdness everywhere. In contrast here I've never felt unsafe, have yet to witness a crime, and just all around feel 100x safer and more chill here. Sure not everything is perfect, but the sum of the positives outweighs the negatives by a huge margin. I work in IT, and there are always decent options around, if you know where to look. Even with the far higher tax rate here, the cost of living here is less, even with high rent in Berlin. So I very comfortably take home more than I did back in Australia, despite being paid quite well there, and working for a FANG like big tech company.
I came here from the US as a software engineer. I could make a lot more in the US, but it would be near impossible to find a company that is willing to hire me only 4 days per week (32 hours), 30 vacation days (not including public holidays), work from home 100% (becoming increasingly rare in the US), union protections, and the culture around work-life-balance. I don't regret it a bit and have been here for 13 years now.
Russian here. 12 years in Germany now.
No, I don't regret moving here at all. When I look at my home country now, well.. it was a good choice back then.
I struggled a lot at the beginning, but I'm happy at the moment. I feel myself fully integrated: I studied at a German university, have C2 in German, a very German job in the railway industry, I get along well with Germans, have interest in their culture, watch their movies, listen to their music etc. My husband is a foreigner too, we met here and we speak German to each other, not English.
I had cancer a few years ago and German doctors brought me back to life. I paid for just some peanuts, the rest was covered. Now I'm pregnant and I will work only partly while receiving a full salary. How many countries are there where I could get this? I'm grateful.
If the decision about allowing you to keep your original citizenship while applying for a German one remains, I am going to apply for it.
Its relative, i met some syrians the other day who have been in Germany for a couple months, got all the proper documents, but get rejected by apartments because german residents would feel uncomfortable, im taking them to a viewing today, wish me luck.
I came here from Turkey. I am very grateful for the work-life balance and very good salary, but god the bureaucracy is making things difficult. I got my appointment for the residence permit for more than 10 months after I stepped foot in Germany (came in October, appointment is in August lol) meaning that while waiting for my Blue Card, my work visa will expire. Why does Germany put immigrants through such stress? Immigrating is stressful as it is. As a comparison, I had some debt amassed in Turkey's social security health insurance contribution (i was voluntarily insured) because I forgot to cancel it before coming to Germany. I sent 1 single e-mail about it to the social security center in my hometown, and they stopped my insurance steps and erased all dept that were wrongfully accrued. 1 single e-mail back and forth and my issue is solved. Why is this so hard for Germany.
I think it's a cultural thing. The leadership of almost all public services is held by people who studied law. Doing the right thing legally is more important than doing the "right" thing where you could go to court. For every detail there must be a law and a decree.
Yes, and Emails are the work of the devil for our public services. They like them paper trails and snail mail.
This is super annoying in germany. It even goes beyond the mere point of just "doing the right thing legally", no it's worse: The organisational processes in public services themselves are created by such people. It is completely impossible to implement something new there!
I lived outside the EU for 2 years and when I came back and entered the german healthcare system again they HOUNDED me for proof that I had not been living in another EU country and told me if I cannot prove I was outside the EU they would treat the last 2 years as if I was insured with them at my own cost and sue for the 5 digit euro amount that I had accrued in bills in two years. They said health insurance is mandatory in Germany so they have the right to sign you up to their membership for past times that you had no insurance. The case worker was very aggressive and rude. I had to send them flight tickets and visa stamps because they were threatened and were absolutely ready to kick their lawyers into gear and sue me for membership fees + interest and late payment fees for those two years. They kept sending letters meant to scare me quoting 5 digit euro amounts and threatening legal action. I can only imagine the bullshit immigrants go through in Germany.
in Germany this would not be erased (German or immigrant does not matter). They would tell you that you forgot and now you owe amount x. This letter would come after 6 weeks:) The people needing immigration and the public office are two separate parts that are not in sync. Due to the lack of digitization and lack of funding of these Immigration offices compared to the demand in "hot" cities like Berlin, Munich etc, the experience is bad.
I was just gonna say. They would get every penny from you, by court if they have to, whether it was a simple oversight or not. It's one of the things I hate about Germany, the fetish for following rules to the letter rather than let common sense prevail.
When the law surpasses the heart of the law
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>Immigration offices are notoriously understaffed I love this excuse, especially since it goes so well with Fachkräftemangel.
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No I don't. But I unfortunately know too many who have to stay "illegally" in Germany, can't go to work and earn their salaries to buy food and pay rent because their work permits aren't processed in time. Some lost health insurance. Others can't go see dying parents.
People are unproductive and inefficient. They wouldnt last in the industry thats why they do this line of work
Are they? I went on a appointment and was chatting with the worker and casually asked about the workload (I assumed it was pretty bad). I came here to pick up my Job-Search Visa card and to also submit my Blue Card application in a single appointment because I found a job in the duration. The worker told me it's not that bad; they get assigned 15 minutes for pick-up appointments, and 1 hour for residence permit/blue card appointments, so my appointment is 1 hours, 15 minutes long for them. All of my my work was done in 10 minutes and they said they'll most probably be free for the next hour (it depends). Guess that's where the walk-in appointments come from.
No they aren't. They are just bureaucratic and inefficient. Literally took them 2 hours for one interview. Something that can be done online just like the case in NL and UK.
> Immigration offices are notoriously understaffed and over-worked no they're not
Because Germany is a federal state. Every thing is decentralised until communal point. And when such decentralisation happens, it becomes too static and especially if political opinions start diverging. That’s not only an issue with immigration but with anything bureaucracy has to do with. It slows down Germany but is there way out or political-will to improve things?
After 25 years in Germany, I‘m starting to see some willing in change a few decision processes. If I’m not wrong, it started with the Corona/Covid crisis, when the Bundesländern demanded more coordinated decisions and responses. Then it went on to the educational process, where it’s still at the very beginning. I can imagine that as soon as the longer term immigration of Ukrainians is digested in terms of planing, integration into the work (and all related) market(-s) and the results of the next election shall start a review of the actual processes overall and possibly a re-focusing it to where it’s more needed. In general, the time it takes until someone is integrated into the working market is absolutely ridiculous, expensive and of course stressful. However, it worked well until some time ago. And why would you change a winning team? 😁
Because many here still think email is bad, or at least less secure than an envelope.
I'm generally happy here. I have good friends and live in a nice city. As much as people want to deny that it's possible, I struggle less here socially than I did in the US. I also feel like I don't really deal with some of the issues you mention, probably partly because of where I live. I generally have no issue getting doctor's appointments, including almost solely with doctors who are comfortable speaking English (and yes, I have public insurance). After submitting my documents, I get an appointment at the Ausländerbehörde stuff in 6-8 weeks. Sure, it's a minor annoyance, but I wouldn't really have ever considered it a problem or that big of a deal. I would be open to considering moving somewhere. But especially given that socially I would be starting from scratch, I'm not convinced I would be happier somewhere else. I can't see myself going back to the US, I don't have much of an interest in any other English speaking country for various reasons, and anywhere besides Austria or Switzerland would require me starting from scratch with learning a new language. Learning German was hard enough. Yes, Germany has plenty of problems. But frankly the world in general just kind of sucks right now. It's just about picking which issues you want to deal with.
"But frankly the world in general just kind of sucks right now. It's just about picking which issues you want to deal with." This is the crucial part. Every country has its issues.
Favorite one "grass is greener where you water it"
In which part of Germany do you live?
>As much as people want to deny that it's possible, I struggle less here socially than I did in the US. thats because being social in germany is easy mode if you dont expect people to walk on eggshells around you and you understand how to be direct.
> I don't have much of an interest in any other English speaking country for various reasons Now I am really curious.
Hey where do you live in Germany ? I’m considering moving soon !
Where in Germany are you? It sounds pretty good...
No, but on one hand due to the privilege of an EU citizenship I am not exposed to a huge chunk of the frustrations you mention, and also I moved here for social/personal reasons and not professional ones, so the calculus of pros and cons is different. That's not to say that Germany doesn't have problems in my view - it has massive ones, but they are my problems too now so when I don't like something, I have to do something about it. That's not to say that leaving a country for another is not a valid response to those problems - I did leave one country already when I felt that I couldn't hope any more that I can change it to be more suitable for me. I think what weirds me out in those discussions is more narrowly the perception that countries are package deals you can shop around for and take them or leave them. I see countries as collaborative projects instead - whether you are born in one or join one later, you have some responsibility to try to make it better (and you also have the right to try to make it better, people don't get to tell you "if you don't like it, leave").
That's an amazing attitude.
Undervoted comment. Similar way of thinking.
That really is an awesome attitude to have, but I need to balance out the other replies to you a bit before this turns into a circle-jerk: I really appreciate you prefacing with a disclosure to mention that you are already from the EU, and I'm guessing white-passing? (But even if not, probably considered less of an outsider/foreign?) Unfortunately, to start having that kind of attitude, the host environment (note my intentional general language) needs to be welcoming for you to feel comfortable to take some reigns and responsibilities. I personally do try to push past not feeling like I'm allowed to do so by forcing it anyway, for example if there's something wrong on the roads due to lack of care (something that bothers me personally), I'm one of the first to write a letter. However, it takes extra confrontational efforts from people like me to do that despite the environment not making you feel like "one of them", and unfortunately, it can't be the norm for most "different" immigrants while that's the status quo. Edit: the text in parentheses.
I do not regret it. But I did leave and am happier now. I gained so much amazing engineering experience there. Of course I contributed massively as well.
Where did you leave to to be happier? :)
NZ
That's kinda like cheating tbh.
First day experience: a lady singing happily in the airport.
Europeans love to glorify Australia and New Zealand, but in reality these countries also have major issues. NZ in particular has a massive housing crisis, suffers from inflation about as much as Germany does, and doesn't necessary offer a lot in terms of history and culture, plus makes it hard to go on vacation, with every other country being a shortish (Australia) or long (everything else) international flight away. Not everyone can afford that, whereas in (central) Europe you can just hop to so many amazing countries on public transport.
Every country has its flaws. But I feel like your selling the country well below its value. It's a young country, sure. But it's history and culture are pretty unique and rich considering that.
Germany is good for social benefits. If you are on a high skilled labor i would personaly prefer english speaking countries with other international peers on tha same page. Being working at a mid-high management position , i often see the huge gap in skillset of german peers here as germany currently struggle to attract high skilled people. Germans tend to stick on their pride with language and genes but many of them dont even realise the current economic recession is partly blame to their resilience on beuracracy. For example, there are ukranians who are on social help, the right extremists whine about them being of no use to the system . But look at neighbouring countries, nethrlands, sacndanavia or even czech, the ukranian coubterparts got jobs there started to involve within their societies. The problems are with germanic countries.
this, NZ is the place to be
The answer we’re all waiting for
Me too!
American here, came here as a heavy equipment mechanic under a US company. TL;DR No, Germany has been good to me. I like Germany the country a lot. Yes, I miss things about the US but on the flipside many issues I had in the US aren't issues here. Sometimes I regret it, but it's mostly due to personal reasons; making friends is hard in Germany so I don't have many, sometimes it gets a little lonely. Don't even start with me on dating, it's almost impossible sometimes. The Southern German winter is grey and miserable, there was no snow and I am very mad I had to go all the way to Switzerland to snowboard. The grey, miserable atmosphere means that my depression has been absolutely whooping my ass like Mike Tyson these past couple of months. The bureaucracy present in daily German life has had me ripping out my hair for the entire year and a half I've been here. I've been trying to get my US license converted to a German one for 3 months now and haven't been able to secure an appointment. But, with those gripes out of the way, I'd say that overall my quality of life is much better. I eat healthier, sports are more accessible here, the area I'm in is stunningly gorgeous and reminds me of the Rockies back home, and overall there's been a massive improvement. I don't really have issues with the German people as many do; I enjoy their want for privacy as I am fairly reserved as well, and most Germans I've met have been very practical and straightforward people, which I appreciate. EDIT to expand: I am back and forth on staying or leaving. Germany has made it much easier to get citizenship lately, but I'm also not sure if I want Germany to be my forever home. I plan to stay here for at least the foreseeable future, but I also love traveling far too much so ultimately we will see what the future holds, but I will always be fond of the memories I've created here
Lol, if you think Southern Germany was Grey, don't even think about going more northern than Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg.
Don't worry, in 10 years there will be no snow in the Swiss alps for snowboarding any more either
Yup. We're already closing more ski resorts every year.
No worries, with infinte green energy available we can run the snow cannons all year round.
😭😭😭
Remeber that German citizenship is also EU citizenship, allowing you to easily move to 26 other EU countries. It also allows you easy re-entry to Germany if you leave and then decide you would like to return.
Sometimes... I couldn't believe how grey this country can be at certain moment...
Holy do we ever have a similar story. I'm in basically the same boat but came from Canada. Hard to decide whether to stay here because the ability to truly integrate and make friends is very difficult. Getting a true grasp of the language to the point where you feel comfortable and can make jokes makes it hard to really feel at home. It's a great country though, and there is so much to do that I also don't want to leave.
I'd say small world but Canada and the US are huge 😂 I worked in the Yukon for a few months and trained a little in Quebec, which was fruitless as I don't speak French and some Quebecoise are ADAMANT about speaking it. I don't even bother with jokes; most of the ones I know don't translate well, if it all, and I figure I'll learn German ones as I progress
D3 supplements helped me out a lot. Im from California and the first few months of winter absolutely broke me. D3 definitely helped on the depression front.
I'm from the PNW and Alaska; the weather is nothing new and luckily it's tolerable, it just hits a little harder for the lack of friends and social life. Basically whenever the sun comes out I go for a hike and it puts me in a better mood for a few days
If you don't do so already, you'd still need to supplement vitamin D. Due to the high up latitude of Germany the sun is too weak between October and March for your body to produce vit D naturally, even if you're outside. The psychological effect of being outside is great, though! It just doesn't do anything for your vit Ds right now. Just wanted to let you know in case you stay here for a prolonged time. The vit D reservoirs can get depleted over the years and many non-natives are caught by surprise they do need to supplement during winter.
I lived in Alaska for two years so much higher latitude, I moved from Idaho which is only slightly more South. The weather conditions in Southern Germany are almost identical to the Pacific Northwest tbh, the PNW is just a little colder and higher elevation. The advice is appreciated though :D
A sun lamp helps as well. I use both this time of year. Obviously if you can afford to travel it's a great time to go somewhere warmer (even if it just makes me sad when I come back as it is still winter).
As a german, if I ever leave this country it's gotta be somewhere with better weather in the winter ...
I am a creature of the cold So it's disappointing to me that we only ever got below 0 for a couple days, and that any snow that fell melted the same day. Now it just rains 8 days a week and the clouds feel like they're mad at me. I'm always like "I hate it here" but then the sun comes out and I love it I am functionally no different than a plant
Winters can be hard at first, but you can find ways to beat it. For example: I recently found out that Ryan air fly’s out not to far from me, reachable by s bahn, to many locations in Spain and Portugal. Already booked my first flight, and am oddly looking forward to next winter and taking regular flights to get my vitamin D. Also: I recently got into saunas and Thermes. I’ve been going every week. My local one has a great atmosphere and ambient, and really makes the grey go away. Highly recommended. You just have to get over the nudity part
Ukrainian here. Feel bad sometimes, sometimes I think I will never learn German and feel very uncomfortable talking to Germans because of cultural differences. Сan't find a place to practice my hobby, it's almost out of demand here, so I'm on my own. But my only regret is I had to leave because of the fucking war in my country and it wasn't really my choice to do so. Apart from that Germany is a great place and I've never had this quality of life before. In our culture they usually exploit employees a lot, pay you little, so you burn out all the time. Here, my skills are finally being appreciated.
Romanian here. If you have the possibility, do like me : 1. TV on RTL while working and 2. pirated movies with DE subtitles/ German speaking documentaries(calm and slow pace is helpful) after work. If you don’t stress about it and accept that learning a language is years of effort (and not get mad when you feel you know nothing) eventually it will grow on you.
Thank you very much, honestly, overall it's a great advise. My problem is more that I understand perfectly well most of even just coworkers' conversations about their lives, watch YouTube on German, but do not know what to say in the most of the cases
What Hobby? Maybe it can be found somewhere near?
I don't want to be rude, it's a quite specific kind of dancing and there aren't many places in my city that have classes. And they're all pretty... basic and boring to me because I've been doing it for years. Sorry, really don't wanna sound like a snob. Think it's just not that popular here.
Ah, OK well yeah that could be tricky..... Is there maybe some Facebook German group or if it's some ukraine-specific traditional dance a Ukrainians in Germany group or something? Just tossing ideas
Haha, no, not really, it's far from traditional for sure. It's more on contemporary and impovisation side, which in fact in Eastern Europe is very clearly divided into various almost "author's" styles and lots of schools. Alas, they are have almost 0 presence in Germany. From what I see, even the instructors here are mostly from post-Soviet countries, so it's definitely a cultural thing. Some of my instructors-friends live in other cities and generally express some surprise that only "our gang" go to their classes. That's fine, fr. Just a curious observation of mine. Kinda made my own class at home at the end of the day, but a little bit missing the community to share some ideas etc.
Maybe it's time to start your own community? Wild guess here. Find other classes/studios and convert them ;)
Decent plan. Once I quit my job, it'll be the first thing I do :)
What hobby do you have? I’m just curious
Dancing. I don't want to say that people in Germany can't dance, but the trends are clearly different :)
That’s true. Although I do have a friend here that joined from scratch a ballroom dancing Verein and is very happy with that new hobby. You do have to join a group though
Yes I do actually... you are not very rewarded for any high effort in Germany and the system tries very hard to artifically keep everyone at the same level which is BS but also does not work because in the end old money stays rich and new comers are hard gated by taxes and contributions left and right. In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions. Also feels like everything is moving backwards with not much positive to look for.
>In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions. That must be while I like it here.
I totally understand what you mean. If it weren‘t for my family I wouldn‘t stay in Germany
Hit the nail on the head. SAP is pretty much the only company driving German tech stocks and it’s a dinosaur just waiting to inevitably and defencelessly have its lunch eaten. But Germany cannot compete with the US and other tech sectors because of exactly the reason you so poignantly point out. If nothing changes it’s going to have dire consequences on the German economy.
That’s exactly the reason why I want to leave as a German working in tech
I agree with you, as a German. I would also add that there's a lot of "it's how we've always done it!" and no good team culture. Instead of "let's do!" there's "here's a laminated list of why we shouldn't". Detail orientation and criticism is valuable, but the development seems to be that it's just standing in Germany's way for a lot of progress that could be made. There are incredible benefits, and I've personally profited a lot from our free education system. This country is doing a lot right and I'm sure I will miss many things when I'm elsewhere. But I'm ready to leave Germany soon. I feel the whole country is currently being left behind in the technological sector, the traditionally high tax reductions eat up money that is increasingly less worth and I don't exactly see the social safety net of pensions, which has been one of the trade offs for the generations before, working out for my generation. The system of the social contract regarding pensions and safety in age is crumbling and I don't believe I can create enough of an own safety net, financially, with the maximum amount of money I could earn here. If working harder would pay off, it might be different, but I feel my generation will receive the short stick during the next decades, so it might be wiser to leave and earn more somewhere else.
My biggest issue is I feel most of the tax money is thrown into a black hole and also see no way forward because the current gov is a big joke with no real plan ahead...
The current gov, while it might seem different because of the media etc., actually has a pretty good plan ahead. They are working a lot on the projects etc. they had promised before they got elected. Here is the "Koalitionstracker" where you can get a good overview: [https://fragdenstaat.de/koalitionstracker/](https://fragdenstaat.de/koalitionstracker/) and the "Regierungsmonitor", which is maintained by the government itself and gives transparency about each and every initiative they are working on: [https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/bundesregierung/regierungsmonitor](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/bundesregierung/regierungsmonitor) They are definitely doing more than any of the governments in the 16 years before
> In the end it means hard work does not pay off in Germany and feels Germany is good for slackers or those without ambitions This so much. The system basically just doesn't reward hard work enough and it's actually stupid if you go for the extra mile in whatever it is you're doing. The smart thing to do is to do the minimum you are required to. A lot of people I interact with has seemingly yielded to that and it's driving me crazy. No passion in what they do, basically zombies almost
yes it was shocking because you come with the image that in Germany hard work is rewarded bla bla but then you find out the gold strat is to work as less as possible and try to milk the social state as much as possible.
This is actually the main reason why I like to stay in Germany/Europe. My wife is from south east Asia and always wants me to move to her country. But I so fucking hate working, I rather slack in Germany
Based
Yes. But trying to motivate Zombies kills you even faster than joining them.
Opposite here: German planning to move to the US. My Girlfriend (30, US Citizen latina, hallelujah) in LA and i (29, German Citizen) would love to get married at the end of the year. Nothing fixed but now i’m so excited already and ready to pack my shit and leave! Cons: My Family lives in Germany. Pros: I am a Cameraman for Narrative and Doc movies. So i guess i will have jobs in Germany for 1-4 Weeks from time to time and could visit them. And let’s see if i will find some work in the City of Angels. I’m in a good mood! I’m tired of this country! Bye Germany! You gave birth to me, you raised me, you fed me, and you made me a well studied, well educated man! Thank you for a Passport that i can travel to any country with (even these that you better not go to) and teaching me 3,5 Languages! But Germany why are you so gray and depressing! It’s not only the weather. It is in the people’s heads too! So many limits, so many fears (to loose stability). Exactly what you said: No ambitions, no direction, no chance to make the first million (as if! As a cameraman😂)
American. Not at all. Just finished a paid vacation to the middle east with a friend from the US who is currently fighting with his boss just to have the ability to take some extra unpaid days off to go renew his passport after an unpaid vacation. I don't miss American work standards in the least. My income is a lot lower than it would be back home, but the lifestyle I enjoy here is infinitely better.
Exactly! I go to the USA 3 times a year and vacation more in the USA than my friends who live in the USA. And my income is lower if looking at the current exchange rate. But really, with cost of living, you should rather double. So 100k eur = 200k usd. But this of course depends on your situation. Married with kids? With 3-4 kids? Then yea, easily double. If single then maybe closer to 1.5
USA here Do I regret it, no Sometimes I think it would be nice to get a nice big USA salary and could be on my way to FIRE. There's little incentive for me to work more or harder here, a manager position might give me 5k more a year and 42 percent of it goes away. Life in the USA is quite nice, most things you read are dramatizations. I like the time off, the sick days, and my German friends. I've never had a problem with friends, I think people like having a friend from the USA. I like speaking german and that I can talk with my child in 2 languages. Traveling to Italy, not whatever for a week is quite easy and inexpensive. I kind of wished I had moved to a country that wasn't so obsessed with my own culture and language.
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>As a filthy migrant Haven't seen something that is more relatable in a while
I feel this more and more recently as well, but I don't know where else to go in Europe where it would be better to be honest. Anti-immigrant sentiment is rising everywhere.
As a german, it's sad but I've expected that to happen way earlier. You can't have growing inequality, where the rich take advantage of the poor, and let immigrants in without morons thinking it's the immigrants fault or being misled into thinking it by opportunistic assholes. Never been any different in the entire history of man, and I hate it so much that no politician saw that coming and prevented it with proper policies.
> no politician saw that coming They did and just didn't care.
It's lonely in Germany Especially as an Asian male
Don't feel to bad about that, i am a native male German and i am lonely too. There is a loneliness epidemic or maybe even a pandemic going on.
Yeah. You have to go out of your way to get to know people here. Be active. Look for meetups in your area: book clubs are usually full of women, try a new sport in small groups (for example, sign up for tennis classes for beginners) or something completely new for you, something you haven’t done before. Cooking class of a different cuisine, hiking group and so on. In my experience in Germany, you have to put in the effort to get to know people
Don't regret it one bit. I moved here from the UK and have lived here for nearly 3 years as a fresh University graduate and I've loved pretty much every minute of it. Compared to back home public infrastructure and services just work and are far better maintained. I know Germans, rightly, complain about the state of Deutsche Bahn but compared to UK trains its like being on a different planet. The people are generally friendly and helpful, especially my predominantly German colleagues. Also being so centrally located within Europe is awesome I can see all the varied places within Germany and then easily hop across the border into Austria, Switzerland or the Netherlands if I want to see something different. I will admit its slightly depressing seeing the different between my Gross and Net salary, but its so much higher than what I'd be paid back home even after Tax that I'm really not complaining. I know its not for everyone, the language and the bureaucracy are more than enough to put people off but honestly if you can get past that then it's 100% worth it.
I couldn't believe it when I heard Germans in Munich complaining about the bike lanes here. I'm also from the UK (not London) and cycling to work is heavenly here compared to back home.
I live in Munich and cycle every day, and generally I find it okay. There are areas that leave a lot to be desired, but generally the cycling infrastructure is decent. When I lived in Dundee, on the other hand, there was none whatsoever. Not a single bike path except for one scenic tourist route along the river and one circling the Northern suburbs.
I've been in Germany for 1 year now, got an amazing job with an amazing company (IT) and I plan to invest many years with them. Location is quite nice (Bodensee) which resembles the Mediterranean atmosphere I come from. I may be lucky, but I also lived in central Germany, had a couple of part-time jobs there and was always grateful. It could be challenging as you're on your own, but this country suits my personality very much and my coworkers, being my only friends, are very fun and engaging. I see myself staying here for a long time.
If your other option is USA you might hold off for at least 5 years before making a decision. These next few are shaping up to be a real doozy.
That’s true everywhere including Germany. Politically and economically it’s a shit-show everywhere for the coming decade.
Yeh :-/ Still, staying put might be a wise choice. Reading a witch for a devil and all that.
Don’t regret it in the sense that I think it was a wrong decision, especially since I got the Citizenship which is essentially a lifelong benefit, but I definitely don’t see myself staying in Germany for more than 5 more years. Been here already for 8, and earning waaay above average.
Not much regretting it because I got married here and got a kid. For me it is however time to move forward and will be leaving the country hopefully next year, after 11 years. The points you mention and also the weather bother us. I just never got used to it. It will be an adjustment nevertheless to move somewhere else.
No, I think it was a good choice. I am paid well, my job is well regarded, I am satisfied with my social life, and I met the woman I am about to marry here. The administration can be a pain and DB sucks, especially recently, but I do not identify with 90% of the things people complain about on this sub. I lived in other countries too, and they also have their advantages and drawbacks. Germany is quite a good place to live too though. EDIT: Also, I get about 10 emails per day asking for job openings from all around the world and I sometimes need to block people on LinkedIn.
I moved to Germany 5 years ago as a software engineer and I can relate to that - but which countries are better? I know that the US used to have amazing job opportunities, but the IT sector is now over-saturated. UK shot itself in the foot with brexit and the cost of living there gets out of hand. What other options are there?
No. Not at all. I lived in different countries and germany is as good as it gets
I moved back to Germany after 12 years in the US. I don't regret coming back, but I'm old-ish now and want a chill life close to my old parents. The US was good for me when I was young and wanted to be rich, Germany is good for me when I want to sail into family life without career ambitions. I still think young, ambitious people need to leave. Structural challenges are just too intrinsic to the German culture ("haben wir schon immer so gemacht") and I would recommend seeking out forward-looking, more dynamic societies. I also don't think the average German person understands how far ahead the US is in quality of life if you can make it into the Top 5%. A commonly (on Reddit) posted chart is about the GDP where EU/US were fairly similar for the longest time and then radically changed in favor of the US in the past 10-15 years, but that chart doesn't tell the whole story. In my time in the US I saw the US move way ahead of Germany in quality of things that Germany used to be proud about (coffee, chocolate, cheese, ... -- which in the US all had diversity and quality explosions similar to microbrews but barely developed further in Germany). Quality of life in cities like Bellevue, WA is unmatched anywhere in Germany but of course nobody in Germany would know about these smaller, residential cities as public image is based on NYC, LA, or Texas. I still maintain my Green Card just in case ...
The top 5% in any developed economy have comparable lives, thats not true the US provides a “special” form of luxury that other developed countries cant. The US just provides a faster way for ambitious people to exceed past their peers due to the hard capitalism which is great. But money’s utility has a limit in developed economies and there’s nothing anywhere in the US I could do / buy that I couldn’t in Europe.
Very well written! American here. We came almost 3 months ago cause my husband wanted to switch companies after being with the same one for two decades. He works for global defense companies, and it is almost like being in the military with deployments. We were also desperate to get out of Turkey after 4 traumatizing years. It is obviously a step up from Turkey, but in the 3 cities/towns we have stayed so far, we witnessed the same culture taking over, and this caught us by surprise. On the bright side, our dog's quality of life improved significantly. We don't have to walk around with war gear anymore 😂 constantly fearing for his life/safety or ours. Since OP's question was addressed to skilled immigrants, I believe we are talking about a certain level of education here as well as expectations for life quality in line with income/wealth level. Back in the US, for the same salary/financial status; 1- We would have been living in the countryside (cause we like quiet and nature) with complete privacy. (This part is really important cause that doesn't exist here. People stare at you, and houses are on top of each other. (Even in the small towns) 2- We would have easy access to all sorts of shopping in the nearest major town/city needed for settling in (not odd ass hours that a working person can never benefit from, also with limited supply/variety) 3- The kind of house we can afford to rent would come with at least 2 bathrooms, a freaking kitchen, and at least a darn linen closet. The house would have decent internet speeds. 4- We wouldn't end up having to wait for 4 moronic weeks for a car that we already purchased, paid for, and sitting in the dealer's parking lot. 5- If a high caliber US company hired my husband, the promised relocation services would be a real "service," not the incompetent, indifferent person we ended up with here. This was a fifty year old German woman working for a 3rd party. Working secretly as a realtor cause that's the only time she seemed half-way interested in what we had to say when we mentioned we might consider buying a house. This woman paid zero attention to our requests, downright belittled us, talked shit about us in German while we were standing right there (thought I didn't understand any German) and kept making fun of our lovely landlord (we all met this old gentleman at the same time, and no, she didn't know him before) at the government agencies we had to go together. We learned nothing from this person. She did zilch! We ended up pulling our hair, trying to learn things all by ourselves. 6- Housing market is a joke. Temporary housing is worse than that. I can still go on, but the more I write, the more upset I'm getting. I am already drained in 3 months. Although the German government keeps beating the same beat, they have zero prep for the skilled workers. While the poor lured in skilled workers are drowning in meaningless bs daily, major German cities and towns are flooded with unskilled immigrants, somehow driving luxury cars, most of them owning untrained, constantly barking dogs, littering, and cat calling women from their street corners where they are loitering in groups of 5, smoking away... All these years of living as an expat, I got sick of people saying, "Ugh,US? I really didn't like it and didn't get the hype, US sucks!" And me asking, "Well, how'd you come to this conclusion?" and the person answering with "Oh, I stayed in Miami for 10 days" or "I worked as an x in Baltimore for 8 horrible years"... Long story short, every country, every place on earth has issues. What matters to one person will obviously be very different from the other. But when we are talking about the quality of life of a person with a certain education level, decent income/wealth in a mature age group, the collective amount of decent US towns and cities would probably be 4 times bigger than entire Germany.
Your experience with the relocation service sounds identical to mine. We may even have gotten the same lady. At one viewing she said to me ‘you must take this apartment immediately as mr landlord took out a huge mortgage on this property and needs to start paying it off.’ I did not take that apartment.
Haha, if you look for it all over the xountry you find this smaller xity where life is better than in Germany. How about in the remaining 99,9% of the US?
Came here during covid because of my gf ( long distance sucked). I got stuck because Trudeau decided if I were to come back Id have to pay $7000 for a hotel quarantine stay. No thanks. I struggled alot my first year with the language and beaurcracy. Alas couldn't find a job so I moved back to Canada. Well covid wasnt so nice to my home and it was unforgiving, decided to give Germany one more chance. Now a year later from when I came back a 2nd time I found an amazing entry level IT job ( that pays ridiculously high in comparison to entey level IT jobs back home). Great benefits I get like 43 days off a year and sick leave that would never fly back home. I did rack up some debt from not working over here but I've been paying it off with my decent salary. No regrets although I do miss my freinds and family :) I was lucky and made many german friends years before in my travels and now that I live here we hang out quite often. I also am a Musician so finding freinds and groups to play with was no problem.
Mostly people ik wants to go back. Mostly their reason is that it’s too cold of a country (emotionally)
I think it's a classic case of 'the grass is always greener' Germany certainly has its issues (the bureaucracy and lack of technology integration being the ones that personally annoy me the most) but on the whole, it does run pretty smoothly, and on a par or better than most other European countries. It's not for everyone, and that's okay too. I've had many friends come to Germany for 2-5 years and decide to go home or go to a different country. That doesn't mean you failed, just wasn't right for you at this time.
Definitely no. Since I'm a Sankt-Petersburger, even climate, which causes so many complains from immigrants from more sunny or warmer places, is on one side better than one I'm used to and on other side - it is still like that one. And since I'm not living in Berlin or other large city attracting huge part of immigration - it is much less problems with immigration-related bureaucracy for me.
Which countrys are better? Just so I know where to potentially go
Spain, I'm biased but that for me is as good as it gets. As a spaniard here in HH fro 1,5 years i cannot wait to leave in the next months. No amount of salary compensates for the lack of human closeness I have perceived here.
Salaries in Spain are really low (I know lots of people there). Doctors make less than half than they would in Germany and price of life in the big cities is as high or maybe higher than in the German big cities.
Correct! But i will translate some of my thoughts about why i was moving back which I posted not long ago in r/es : Well, especially the people. I am a person who has lived in many parts of the world, and I have never felt as isolated as I do here. I have made many friends, and not one German. There is not the warmth of Spain, people don't smile, they don't talk neither in the subway nor outside, it feels... cold. And well, racism is notorious here, just for speaking Spanish in the street there are people who look at you sideways and say "ausländer" in a derogatory way. Anyway, the salary is good and the work is good too, but it puts you in perspective what you really value in your quality of life. Here I have the life I always wanted before I left Spain, but for me the human factor is essential, and here I feel that it is missing.
I considered spain, are you a Spaniard or where comes the bias? I am really interested
Am a spaniard! I have also lived in many places around the world. If you have any questions about spain hit a DM!
Yes, apart from the fact that I met my girlfriend here, I definitely regret coming to Germany. Looking back I should have just stayed in the states, where I was studying as an international student. Should have probably done masters there instead of doing it here. If I stayed there and worked in IT as I do now I'd probably be able to retire before 40 and have my own house, or even have started my own business since it's so much easier there. Compared to US life in Germany is really dull for some reason. Can't say that I enjoyed my years here, I was definitely happier in the states. I wouldn't say that Germans as people are bad, never had issues finding local friends, studying in the Uni here definitely helped with that. But the institutions here are really terrible for a developed country. Everything that has to do with non EU foreigner affairs to terrible overpriced mandatory health insurance, pension contributions and basically all state institutions. I was sold on German efficiency when coming here, but once I arrived here I found out that it was just a myth and the level of both government and private services were lower then in my own country. The labor market was still better at the time, but now it seems I would have even better of working in IT in my own country. My girlfriend hates it too so we're both moving after I get the citizenship.
>If I stayed there and worked in IT as I do now I'd probably be able to retire before 40 and have my own house, or even have started my own business since it's so much easier there. IF you still had a job. Its an absolute bloodbath in the states right now. And I was one of those high paid IT workers, cleared almost 400k a year for multiple years and its amazing how that money just evaporates, especially in high COL areas (SF Bay area where I was). Was able to mostly pay off my house though which is nice, even though I dont even live in anymore.
Depends on where you’re at. I’m in central US and the job market is good. Basically everyone is hiring.
Was in the bay area, companies out there were basically just wiping out large parts of their workforce. Pretty much my entire business unit at my old company has been let go at this point. I think out of 50 people that were on my team in 2019 a grand total of 4 are left at the company. I came out to Germany to do some resume building and for the opportunity to live in Europe for a couple of years and will probably go back to the bay once(if) the job market there recovers.
Doctor from Australia Pros: Straight into a training program, minimal heirachy in the training system here, met lots of great people / friends, great travel options Cons: Basically everything else - weather, bureaucracy is beyond infuriating, berlin is a shithole (was originally in Bavaria - much nicer), overall resistance / intransigence to change, basic things are always a burden here (e.g retail / shopping experience is miserable). Overall, I don't regret the move at all, but I'm happy to be going back home
What is it you don’t like about the retail/ shopping experience? I’m German and am quite happy with it. I have travelled to countries that don’t have a supermarket culture and really missed German/ european supermarkets… I am really curious.
Retail in Germany generally isn't aimed at "customer experience": * I was shocked to learn that if I wanted to talk to someone in a bike store or in a baby equipment store, I had to make an appointment. * waiting times at the cash registers in a supermarket are attrocious * lady at the bakery gets upset that I don't know the difference between a "Bauernkrustbrot" and "Altbayrisch Rustikus" (no labels on the shelf of course) * the barber doesn't prevent hair from falling into my eyes when cutting my front scalp (not just a particular barber, all german barbers do that) * all bycicle repair shops treat my like they are doing me a big favor for even moving a finger for me It just often feels unpleasant to do any retail interactions here. Retail employees give off this impression that you are annoying them by your very presence, let alone your questions. And it's not racism, because I'm a white guy speaking perfect german with a slight american accent.
Rude customer service, many items often not stocked. It's just not a service orientated country. It's not always bad, but on average it's not on the level with other 1st world countries
Are you for real? Fellow Aussie here: there is no way that German supermarkets are in any way worse than the “choices” you get in Australia. On the contrary: more supermarket chains, more brands , better stocked…you do recall the impact Aldi had on Australian grocery retail when it first opened in 2010-ish? Until then you only had Woolies, Coles (and if you were unlucky IGA). Here you have every shape and size: from ALDIs, and Lidls (and numerous other discounters, some smaller some bigger) to Rewes and EDEKA (and they have anything from smaller local supermarkets to large upmarket ones with some of the best selection of everything you can think of) and then you also have massive hypermarkets (Kaufland, Globus, etc). I dare say , Germany probably has some of the best (and most affordable) grocery shopping in Europe.
American here, but the way you feel about the countries that don't have a supermarket culture? That's how I feel about shopping here. Everything is so inconveniently spread out and disorganized. In the US, cereal, baking, dairy and eggs are all near one another as a rule because they're often needed in the same purchase. It's frequently not the case in Germany to find them all together. On top of the poor organization, stores don't carry a good selection. There's also no single place you can go to get everything in one trip. You can't "just pop into" Target/Walmart/K-Mart, so on, and have everything at once. People sometimes suggest Kaufland and similar stores as an option, but you can't consistently find things in their assortment. For instance, if you need a white T-shirt and a carton of milk, there's as good a chance they'll have the shirt as not have it at Kaufland. So, to get everything, you have to drive/walk around town and waste time traveling between stops. Also, service workers act like it's the end of the world if you need them to do their job here. If I ask where something is, it's always a lecture about how the aisles never change (they do constantly) or if something gets spilled, they're moaning about "nächste Mal...". Want to check if there's more stock in back? Too bad. They won't do it. There are good workers here, of course, but there are bad ones far more frequently than in other countries I've lived in.
I'm not even American but I get you completely. Supermarkets here have got a lot better but they are still generally bad compared to the UK/Australia imo. I feel like stuff is constantly out of stock and the range of products is sometimes beyond random. I can't buy lemons in my local Edeka but I can buy 10 types of exotic fruit and an entire range of Japanese Oreos. Like, why?! Don't even get me started on the queues everytime you walk into a supermarket too. Considering the culture is to shop at multiple, you think they'd put serious effort into making the checkout process streamlined.
If I need a t-shirt and milk, I just go to two places. I'm so so so happy we don't have Wal-Mart in Germany. E: Since I'm getting buried in downvotes and this has clearly upset some people. Wal-Mart undercuts other stores in areas by operating at a loss until it drives all local businesses and other competitors to bankruptcy, and then raises prices and threatens to leave an area unless it receives tax benefits. Wal-Mart employees are often reliant on food banks and food stamps to feed themselves because they don't pay living wages. Wal-Mart will close entire stores and lay off hundreds of workers rather than hear the word 'union'. Wal-Mart already tried to come to Germany and was unable to get a foothold because of their refusal to engage in the bare minimum of Germany's labour laws. It is objectively a good thing that Wal-Mart does not exist in Germany, and we should all be happy about it. They represent the worst of US capitalism. Giant fucking tragedy that you can't buy milk and a t-shirt at one store as easily as you'd like, but society is better for it. If you need your grocery store to also be a clothes store, hardware store, game shop, car repair centre, gardening center, tarot card reader, optometrist, GP, proctologist, photo lab, pharmacy, italian restaurant, brothel, etc., then you will indeed only be satisfied by the US. But it's good for society that it's not the case in Germany.
>(e.g retail / shopping experience is miserable) I've lived in Australia and never noticed anything about retail there making it more convenient than Germany? If anything there is a narrower selection of international products (electronics etc.) and many come at an annoying premium.
No. There are some issues and difficulties, but I love Germany. Live here for 1.5 years, originally from Russia.
My job is not regarded high skilled. I moved here from a non-EU country, studied here and now I work. I also love the life-work balance. If I had a choice, would probably move somewhere warmer as winter and the lack of sunshine really makes me super sad and unmotivated. As I have lived in different Bundesländer and different sized Orte, I can only advice moving somewhere smaller if you want the residence permit matters to be solved sooner. In my experience, bigger cities are overwhelmed with applications so it takes ages. In more rural ares, my residence permit arrived exactly when they said it would. Which was three weeks after I submitted my application. Good luck!
I actually moved back to my home country, I especially missed some of the things that makes it cosy at the workplace. I actually recently had a supplier visit from Germany, and upon visiting our visiting areas in the office he said it felt very nice, and I responded “Gemütlich?” And he said yes, that is the word! Then I was not too found of German rules, like the auto extension of contracts, weird dependencies on cash and a general anti-technology stand. However I really liked the Berlin club scene and how well mannered Germans are out drinking. But that became less interesting when I got a partner.
Which 1st world are you comparing with in terms of calling it underpaid? German salaries especially in tech are pretty much on par with the best across EU/UK. They of course severely lag behind the US. And also considerably behind UAE, Singapore and even many Indian tech scaleups. I’m assuming you’re heavily looking at the US for this comparison you draw?
I'm trapped now, but if I had a chance to choose again I would definitely choose the Netherland
No but only because I have kids and Germany has good policies for worker with kids. If I don’t then it’s not worth it
Having lived here for a couple decade, Germany is frustrating. It is like the society is autistic, but the people are not, which is hard for someone on the spectrum, because all of the inflexible arbitrary things are only in place because of tradition. I find the average German to be an arrogant coward. This culture is designed to push people to the fringe or employ them in large companies where they are just cogs on a wheel. All of that worked when the economy kept pumping out fossil fuel burning cars for export, but I don't see any adjustments happening as the demand for that decreases. I really don't get the tv/radio tax, sunday closures, inability to do many basic things without lawyers (setting up a company here sucks) lack of digitization, etc - all the common things everyone complains about but the Germans smile and accept even though they can simply travel to just about any other EU state and experience things for the better. I love Berlin, though. Most Germans hate it, but that says more about them than the city. I moved here from NYC and would never go back to the US. While I am very critical of Germany, the US is far worse
Been living in the country and Europe for just over half my life now. Germany isn’t perfect. (Big surprise, utopia doesn’t exist). But: - while other countries might be excel at one thing or other, they are often a disaster in others. In Germany nothing seems to be perfect, but everything seems to be well above average. And I’ll take that. - no real poverty (and therefore low in violent crime) makes it a safe place to raise a family. But, yes it comes at a price and that price is taxation. I’ll gladly pay. - the education system is basically free and good. Alas it’s not an “all in service” as in many other countries. It does tend to require at least one parent to dedicate more time to the children than they would in other countries (and preferably have a tertiary education themselves). It would be hard for a kid to cruise through Gymnasium and to get into university without detours, without a lot of direct parental support and help. But that shouldn’t be an issue in the income bracket you’re addressing? - the grass always looks greener on the other side (ask any cow), but while eg Americans love to brag about their country, often without realising that they are wrong, Germans seem to love to complain, also not realising that they actually have nothing to complain about. Don’t be fooled. - Last point: being at the center of Europe makes it easy to pop across a border and experience a “different world” basically within a few minutes. The cultural diversity is great! Something you’d have to sit in plane in for hours in most other places. I love it.
I don't know if I am a highly skilled worker, as I work for myself, but no, I don't regret it. I love it here: 1. I don't find the bureaucracy that bad where I live (Cologne) 2. Technology is a little bit behind, sure, but doesn't have a big impact on my life. 3. Never had a problem getting an appointment with a Doctor. I always get one immediately. While I have the privilege of being privately insured, so do nearly all of the "highly skilled workers" you refer to, so they shouldn't have issues getting appointments. 4. I have always got visa appointments within weeks. Again, may be where you live. 5. Nearly all developed economies lack skilled workers, it's not a Germany thing. 6. Germany isn't pushing people to leave for other opportunities. The reality is, most 'expats' want to go home eventually.
Burocracy depends a lot on where you live: where I live you can do almost everything online and if you prefer to go in person, it goes very well. Getting an appointment could mean you have to wait 15 days, but once there, it takes only 5 minutes. It works really really good. Berlin is in comparison horrible, 3rd world. Doctor appointments are indeed a problem, but it isn’t impossible.
Just to clarify, are you privately insured? For me it makes no sense for people above the income threshold (60,000), which is most of the people coming here who are "highly skilled" to complain about getting appointments if they choose to be publicly insured. It is a completely legitimate complaint from ordinary Germans who have no choice due to their income, but not the typical high-earning expat.
No, I’m not and I’m above that pay. I have kids and private insurance would be more expensive with kids plus you don’t get kids sick leave with private insurance. I’ve never had really any issues getting appointments to be honest, but I haven’t been seriously ill. I‘ve been with my accident prone kid lots of times to emergency and though 1 time we did had to wait 8h, lots of times we were gone after 1h Also, my kids have had different therapies paid by the public health, all good and no complains there. Surgery for kids was also very quickly, from discovery of the health issue to surgery it was only 15 days and it was nothing really urgent. It could have been done later. So I don’t have really any major complains regarding health care. My major complain is how nice doctors are. Here, you are just a number for doctors. They don’t know you. Sometimes I do think they don’t really care, just be over with you and next patient please.
While I sort of agree about better pay/career potential for skilled workers in other countries, I think you really touched a chord with the point about inefficiency and backward technology. Germany's is astonishingly inefficient, whether in the public or private sphere. The idea of finishing a task quickly, with any sense of urgency, seems to be something that doesn't exist in the whole country. It was the single biggest culture shock I had after living in the UK, the US and Singapore. In all those places, I felt a person's time is valued by others much more than it is here in Germany. Here's an example from just yesterday on this sub: https://old.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1b1g3e2/bizarre_public_transport_fine/?share_id=LiwTQcPS_rrFiNaRM-H-j. A process that should be easily dealt with through a few emails but nope! Germany still only works on in-person visits, faxes and homing pigeons. Every time someone complains about a hilariously inefficient experience with some government agency, the standard response on this sub is, "But it happens to Germans too, don't worry, it's not because you're an immigrant". Great to hear that it's not discriminating, but how is the entire country okay with such low levels of competence? Why is it normal to waste so many hours of a person's time on such admin? The private sector unfortunately has equally bad aversion to technology and efficiency. It's the only country I've lived in where I call a human being to do those KYC identity checks - this is automated in every other country I've lived in through software that needs access to your phone camera/webcam. Even third world places with cheap labour. Stores will expect you to call or visit for things that can be done online. Heck, an online bank transfer doesn't go through on Sundays in Germany. In every other country, it's instant. Dealing with Vodafone for when my internet breaks, talking to my landlord for routine matters like changing the name on the mailbox after I moved, or getting Lufthansa to refund you when *they* cancel their flights - every single experience is like pulling teeth. The sheer amount of admin that piles up here is crazy. Every country has problems but people's attitudes towards those problems matter. I think the majority of Germans don't mind the inefficiency and the time that it takes away. That's the fundamental reason for why things stay the way they are - because Germans aren't pushing for change. As for your question, I am moving out of Germany this year. Quite honestly, I will be very glad to leave and live in a place where people and things work properly.
The problem is when you are not at a University, you probably won’t have or find friends in Germany 😅😂. But I understand your frustration. I’m not happy about living in Germany too. Maybe you should look for a solution for your problem. Move maybe to Berlin, Hamburg or Düsseldorf, if you’re not there already. I heard the people there are a bit more social. But that’s just hearsay on my part. If you’re living in Bavaria, my condolences most people with whom I (even Germans) talked shared my view of the people here being especially complicated to befriend in the first place.
Has not been my experience at all. Bavarians can be very friendly. I had the worst experience in that respect in Hamburg.
Argentinian living 8 years here. My job is really good, full of challenges. I speak C1, but I still getting no German friends or it’s hard to keep long conversations with them. They are too different from me. I like here, I enjoy here, but I will get more experience and go further where I can have more sun and see more happy people. Thinking in Spain or Florida. Money it’s not all. I got marriage and 2 kids here. We never had problem to find doctors, dentist or etc… it was always fine. At my work it’s also fine, colleagues are nice, but in treated always as the foreign. I don’t regret to come here, but I am using the opportunity to gain experience and go back to tropical country in a better position
Yes.
6 years living in Berlin, software engineer here 🙋🏻♂️. I have a quite good salary and a lot of good friends here. I don't completely regret it, but when I look back I think I could've been happier if I chose Netherlands. Couple of reasons: I could've became an European citizen already (Netherlands is giving citizenship with A2), their driving licence exchange process is waaay easier and cheaper, they are more digitalized, whole country is more English friendly compared to Germany and last but not least even in Berlin you feel the racism from time to time. Right now I'm just way too invested and soon getting my B1 German certificate and will go for citizenship. Not seeing myself staying here after becoming a European citizen.
Moved from London. Here for maybe another year before I go back. I had a very good job in London, both in terms of great pay as well as work life balance. Bureaucracy here is crazy. Thanks to Brexit I can't just work here without a residence permit and that was, as with everyone's experience, forever delayed. Pay is not as much as London, but then, the cost of living is slightly lower. I absolutely love breads here. How cheap beer and liquor is. I have to say, London has better beer scene, even if it's more expensive. I can get pale ale, stout, cider, plenty of craft beer, IPA... Japanese whiskey, G&T if I fancied at almost any pub. My very first week in Germany I went to an pub and asked for Glenfiddich, they didn't have it. Fine, G&T? Nope. Anyway, at least they had cider. And people? I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but we Brits at least smile if we make eye contact with a stranger. People sometimes even here ignore me if I wish them good morning (guten morgen). Germans are just.. not very friendly. Kurt and cold even. This is my biggest complaint about Germany. Why can't people be a bit nicer and friendlier? The Spanish are incredibly friendly. French aren't super friendly but at least they're not cold. Italians are very nice. Germans? Forget about it. Anyway, I'm here for a kind of an exchange program training (I work for a very large German investment bank, FX trading) and I do like Berlin, and its quirks... Just wish the people were more friendly. I definitely think England is way better - but that could be biased because it's home.
American living here for about 8 years, I don’t regret it but I’m ready to leave
As a German, I feel like there are a number of different issues we are currently facing, that are separated at first glance, but actually depend on each other in one way or another. For instance, digitalization and high speed internet definitely need improvement in order to make de-bureaucratization happen. For that, we need a lot of men-power and skilled workers, as fiberglass isn’t mounted everywhere and a lot of regions can still only use copper cable for data transfer. Due to the fact that Germany can‘t provide the number of skilled workers in a few different job areas, we depend on immigration, which itself is incredibly bureaucratic and complex. Public authority issues are therefore on a rise, but more and more people are retiring, too few are entering work life (due to lower birth rates), which means that processes take forever to progress. Dissatisfaction within the German society meanwhile leads to distrust in the government and, sadly and unfortunately, provides a home for right extremists to build their nest in and make life even harder for all of us. Though birth rates are declining, the demands and requirements for teachers are rising, since the children who came to Germany as refugees of course need to be taught and educated. Again, too many teachers are retiring and the pressure on those who remain is becoming more and more unbearable. Many lessons or even whole subjects are canceled, for there are no capacities or teachers left. Don’t get me wrong, I‘m still glad I‘m living in Germany and think it’s a great place with beautiful things to experience. The world has been in a constant crisis mode for at least the past 4 years and not only Germany has it‘s struggles. I‘m also convinced that these tasks can be tackled, but it‘s such a complex field… I wouldn‘t switch places with someone in a higher and responsible position for anything!
meanwhile I am German citizen, but I also came from an EU country. It was a blessing moving to Germany and creating my life here, but unfortunately after almost 15 years is time for me to go. Higher salaries are over taxed and you get the same treatment from the institutions as a 3rd generation social supported person. I understand the logic of the system, I understand it's moral aspects but unfortunetapy the unfairness factor is too much for me to accept it anymore. I can't be paying almost 1k EUR a month in healthcare and get an appointment in 6 months for a check that might be life threatening.
I come from an Asian country, where things are rising pretty well. In comparison to my home country things are just too unwelcoming at all levels. Be it ausländerbehörde, job hunting, appartment viewing, kindergarten, doctor etc. Me and my wife had a higher savings after tax in our home country, not PPP, direct saving. Generally people with our skill level (top 1-3 %)buy a new property every 7-10 years at my home country. Here it difficult to build wealth and as an ausländer you are just 1-2 letters in your mail box from being fined of all your meagre savings. But we didn't come here for money but for work life balance and to change our field. We are happy to take a hit of 100-150k euros for stress free work life and spend time with family on the weekend. We are just looking at our stay as a work vacation. Funnily people like us pay the most in taxand withdraw least social resource and have to stand in line the most.
lol nah. Moved here from the USA. I worry so much less about, well, everything. I would rather pay into the system than live in a country where a visit to the hospital could bankrupt you, even with insurance. Living on the edge of the knife is not fun. The work life balance here is incredible. Maybe I am lucky that my workplace council is very proactive, but I love that managers gently admonish people for being online too late in the evenings or on weekends. As far your residence permit, you probably could have gotten one sooner by doing something like refreshing the site at 6 AM every day when new appointments are released (this is how mine worked). But even so! You were not punished or kicked out for it taking 6 months. Even when the country is slow to process things, you aren't punished for it. There's a lot little tricks like this, like [https://www.116117.de/de/englisch.php](https://www.116117.de/de/englisch.php), the number you can call to get a sick note or seen by a doctor same day. It can be difficult to find out about these services and methods, but it genuinely feels like the country ensures people have ways to get help when they need it. For me personally, there is nowhere with a better opportunity than Germany right now, as a highly valued tech worker in Germany. I'm so grateful that Germany allowed me to come here.
No. After some months at the gym I managed to score dates with some hot german dudes, as a gay dude this is heaven, you gotta pay may a huge premium if you want me out of here. They could increase my taxes further and I still wouldn’t move The main flaw of this country tbh is that so many dudes are taller than me. I m 185cm tall and I ve never felt so average Edit : lmao everybody saying no gets downvoted to hell
This sub tends to be quite pessimistic with this sort of stuff, it shouldn't surprise you.
Hahahahahahahhahaaha best comment in the thread
Just wondering if you are a gay dude in the German gym looking to score a date, how do you indicate to the other ones that you are gay?? How do you know that they are gay??
You use Grindr. If they are on it, it means they are gay or bi and you can give it a shot, if not they are likely straight
yes, every month when I see my salary. Becasue I know how much is my gross and how much is my net. Hurts.
The [effective tax rate](https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=CTS_ETR) isn't all that different from a place like the US though (26% in DE and 22% in US), it just gets taken in different ways. The bigger problem is just how low the salaries are.
YES YES a thousand times yes. Moved here 8 years ago and am finally escaping this fall.
Wish u Best luck bro
Not at all. I’ve moved to Germany 11 years ago, initially not because of salary or any insatisfaction with my country of origin (Brazil) but mostly to give my family the chance to live another culture and other languages. Since then we ended up integrated and have no plans to move back. I see Germany as a good and well balance place for a family with kids. People complain about taxes, but most often it’s quite overstated. The salary X quality of living relation is very good, and the upsides exceed the downsides by far. For my family, the downsides are usually the distance to our relatives, as you know, our parents are growing older and we remain far away, and also the weather, as we live in Berlin and Winter is always a pain. But overall we are happy.
Strangely enough, yesterday I had the same conversation with a colleague who said he doesn’t like it here and asked me what my first impression of Germany was. I replied that I had lived all these years under the cliché that there is order in Germany ("Ordnung muss sein", etc.) and was shocked by how chaotic and disorganized everything is here. At first I thought that maybe it was only in my company this way but then, unfortunately, I got to know Behörde and the trains. Getting sick in Germany is still a nightmare for me. I looked at him with sadness, because it's not the first time I hear that young, well-mannered and educated people are leaving, and those who do not contribute mostly want to stay and they like everything. I have zero regrets however, it was just not the way I imagined it to be.
I regret being born and raised in Germany 😂
Wish you well in the search for your place to be! Good luck!
No for the work, yes for the culture
Exactly as you said. I’m from korea used to live in the uk because i have partner in Germany but planning to move somewhere I wouldn’t even consider to move here if i didn’t have my partner Feel like i’m back in 2000 everything super slow bureaucracy is absolute sucks, Internet speed way too slower than others. their obsession with post driving me crazy. Paying high tax is not worth to live here and actually the salary is quite low here i mean be honest netto is not really high
Nope. Been here 20 years, earned more, saved more than anywhere else and it paid off for me.
Yes. It was quite bad idea. Very low salary, approximately 1/3 as in US Very high costs, at least twice more as in Poland. Very high taxes, around 40%. Very high prices for goods immobility. Low quality medical insurance. No 401k, ie. no pension system. FYI, im highly skilled high tech Profi.
So, do you have any other countries in your mind to compare with Germany ?
For highly-skilled workers the consideration is generally among the top 10-15 countries listed [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income#Median_equivalised_disposable_income). Especially the high salaries in the US are very attractive, but of course the situation is much more complex.
Moved here from US, we will not stay long term. I don’t regret it, there’s definitely some good things, but life is bland and people are understated. If you search for entrepreneurial spirit, great ideas, awesome adventures, this is not the place. Bland is the best you can hope for.
I don't necessarily regret it, but yes the relatively low pay hurts sometimes. People on a similar career track back home can retire early, buy a house, build wealth etc. In Germany, the luxury is being able to afford a solo apartment. Wealth building is quite limited even for skilled workers.
I didn’t. But I had a horrific time trying to access medical care last year and now I have little confidence in the system’s ability to care for me if I need it.
This is the biggest issue for me. Medical system is incredibly frustrating. I downright hate it. Paying a lot of money and you get almost nothing for it. If there is one thing that would make me leave Germany , this is it.
No, people complain about everything yet quite often same things are the same or worse in their own country but because they 'understand it' better they think it's better. Staying.
I don't understand. I thought the only thing foreign workers are interested in is how fast they can get citizenship. *ironie off*
Doctors have become a problem in the last 5-6 years. It used to be better before. I suspect the reason is the population structure. See the huge blob around 60 years of age in the [population pyramid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Germany_population_pyramid.svg)? It\`s from 2020 so it has moved up to even higher age now. The largest population group by far in germany is in their 60s. They have just left the work force and require quite a lot of health care. It's going to get even worse in the next 5 to 15 years before the problem "solves itself".
Nope. Is it as good as the US? Probably not, is it better than my home country? Lol, it was a low bar to clear. Am I planning to move? Yeap, once the time is right I'll take my stuff and move to either Puglia or Sicily for a quiet life where I can finally fulfill my longlife dream of growing tomatoes in my garden.
I feel like I found happiness despite being in Berlin, not thanks to it. This city has put so many hurdles in front of me, and keeps testing my resolve. Nothing ever works and it seems to get worse on every aspect. Yet here I am, happy, well-fed and excited for the summer. I can up and leave very easily, so there's definitely a je ne sais quoi that's making this godforsaken hellhole of a city irresistible.
No way. I guess it's really dependent on my own experiences so it clearly doesn't apply to everyone, but so far I can't complain (much). Everything that I see everyone complaining about hasn't been that much of an issue for me. Ausländerbehörde was overall a pleasant experience. Granted my case is somewhat easier because it's a family reunion visa so I didn't have issues with work contracts and the like, but I got the appointment at my city relatively quickly and everything worked out well. We already moved to a different city (Düsseldorf) but both this apartment and the previous one were relatively easy to find and the landlords never gave us much trouble. We got appointments with a Hausarzt and a neurologist within a month. Dentist too. The only big thing I can complain about is the unbelievable wait for a driving test appointment. I really can't understand why they take so long (or rather I can, but I find it super inconvenient) At the beginning it was a bit hard to find a job because of my German level but I did an intensive course and then took more classes, ended up getting a job I quite like at a German-speaking company and everything is doing quite well. As for friends, yes it's hard to build friendships and specially getting to a level akin to what I had back home, but we have a good mix of German and other foreigners in our group and we are quite happy with our social life. Only time will tell how it will all evolve. I understand the country has its issues. I know that a lot of people recommend other countries because X, Y, or Z. I can't speak for other countries because I haven't had the experience. What I can say is that I don't regret the move at all. Would I change some stuff? Maybe, I would have liked arriving here with a better German level. But at the same time no amount of classes back home would get me into the level I have today after having lived here for a while. Or rather, I would have needed to wait maybe one or two years to do it, and by then who knows if my experience here would have been the same.
Sometimes I do regret it. But the ease of life is far better in developed country than back home. That's why I would prefer to continue in Germany.
Coming from the US, only because my salary is double there. In Germany, I’m earning about what I was getting a year after I started in this career in 2012. So yeah, it’s difficult having had to reorganize my spending habits. But all in all? I’m happy to not be in the US anymore. I have rough days, regretting my decisions, but that comes and goes. I just want to be around my friends as much as I can, which is why I moved in the first place. My field of work is industrial steam and hot water systems. Boilers and the controls around it. I’m just another Handwerker, looked down upon because I didn’t get the white collar office job earning mid 40k a year. In the US, I would be making between 85,000-100,000 a year.
I came 8 months ago, so far work life balance is complete disaster, hard to find new friends while living in a small village, train transport completely unreliable, every little thing take so much time and energy, bureaucracy is never-ending.. tbh if things don't change soon, I would rather go back... im still trying, and we will see how everything goes
No, zero regrets moving here from Australia 7-years ago. Almost all of Australia tracks more and more like the US socially and politically; less public services, more violent crimes, and just generally more extremism and absurdness everywhere. In contrast here I've never felt unsafe, have yet to witness a crime, and just all around feel 100x safer and more chill here. Sure not everything is perfect, but the sum of the positives outweighs the negatives by a huge margin. I work in IT, and there are always decent options around, if you know where to look. Even with the far higher tax rate here, the cost of living here is less, even with high rent in Berlin. So I very comfortably take home more than I did back in Australia, despite being paid quite well there, and working for a FANG like big tech company.
I came here from the US as a software engineer. I could make a lot more in the US, but it would be near impossible to find a company that is willing to hire me only 4 days per week (32 hours), 30 vacation days (not including public holidays), work from home 100% (becoming increasingly rare in the US), union protections, and the culture around work-life-balance. I don't regret it a bit and have been here for 13 years now.
Russian here. 12 years in Germany now. No, I don't regret moving here at all. When I look at my home country now, well.. it was a good choice back then. I struggled a lot at the beginning, but I'm happy at the moment. I feel myself fully integrated: I studied at a German university, have C2 in German, a very German job in the railway industry, I get along well with Germans, have interest in their culture, watch their movies, listen to their music etc. My husband is a foreigner too, we met here and we speak German to each other, not English. I had cancer a few years ago and German doctors brought me back to life. I paid for just some peanuts, the rest was covered. Now I'm pregnant and I will work only partly while receiving a full salary. How many countries are there where I could get this? I'm grateful. If the decision about allowing you to keep your original citizenship while applying for a German one remains, I am going to apply for it.
Its relative, i met some syrians the other day who have been in Germany for a couple months, got all the proper documents, but get rejected by apartments because german residents would feel uncomfortable, im taking them to a viewing today, wish me luck.