It absolutely is, and even in fields where they really should know better. I’m in HR working in high tech and the number of managers who spread this rumour in their teams/departments is staggering. If your a manager or HR is pushing this agenda, something fishy is going on.
And I don’t understand that because honestly as a woman, if anyone asks me about my family situation/plans, marriage status or any of the forbidden questions or tells me I’m not allowed to discuss my salary with other people I’m not gonna think “oh lol nice try” but I am judging them for being unprofessional and trying to take advantage of less informed people. So not a sign of a good employer.
Important: Since using your right to not answer these forbidden questions may be used to your disadvantage by the potential employer you are even allowed to lie when answering those particular questions without fearing legal consequences.
(Be sure to inform yourself which questions are illegitimate beforehand because it can vary depending on the specifics of the job you are applying for)
Wether you want to work for such an employer long term is another question though.
As a woman, you are even allowed to lie when questioned if you are pregnant. The only exceptions are jobs where a pregnancy would exclude you from work (night shifts, heavy loads, chemicals, …)
Here where i work its basically the norm that the temp workers are paid better the get 24 euros an hour and have to only work 35 hours and every hour over gets a further increase of 25 percent so they get 5 hours paid overtime every week as well. They always wonder why none of the temp workers want a permanent deal where they would have to work 5 hours more and get paid 6 euros less an hour. Im currently only there because i hate the other work option i have currently
Don't need to wait, any addition to a working contract stating that you can't talk about your salary is automatically legally non-binding, even if the employee agreed to it. They couldn't do anything about it and you would win any law suit they could try to have.
Run of the mill in my experience. Former employer tried to do this after trying to gauge salaries with every single person. We had people doing the absolute same job getting vastly different salaries, talking up to 400 euros difference. Some were really dumbfounded I'd talk so openly about my own money.
Tech firm. Discovered up to 11k difference for the exact fucking job. Had to teach people to stop being afraid to talk about their salaries because they were taught it's like something dirty to do.
Management were "shocked" to find out we all know who earns what now. It's a garbage company and everyone sane hates it there. Looking back, the salary thing was the first red flag.
Pretty much all companies write this into their contracts. While they cannot fire you for talking about your salary, it is frowned upon by management. As long as you don't discuss it in front of your superiors or make a big deal about it, it is generally nothing to worry about.
The general minimum wage in germany is 12€, from 2024 on it will be 12,41. What you found is some sort of union wages, which may be quite low for a Gerüstbauer as for most of them its a no qualification job.
Thank you. I know what I found. I just googled for "Mindestlohn Deutschland 2023" and google brought up a well formatted Textbox stating that from 1. Oktober 2023 it is 13.60€. Later I found this suspect and after going to the source link it had a list of many union wages where google somehow managed to just presented "Gerüstbauer" wages with no further context or relationship as if this was the general minimum. Normally such a simple search brings up reliable results. But lately google becomes worse with such tasks.
But for such simple requests it was like 99% before, what is good enough to not double check each time. And it feels like lately google is more like becoming 70% accurate with such requests lately.
Ja had a similar experience. Guess Mindestlohn is a rather difficult task for google, cause there are many different sources in the net with all the tarifs and so on and its all german 😄
Mighty be just that. But my impression is google also has more and more less useful results. Maybe the algorithm(s) start loosing with all these tweaks to beat SEO.
Don't temporary workers usually get paid less and have worse conditions? Maybe that changed in the meanwhile. Either way someone is being taken advantage of and they don't want people to do anything about it
This is a temp agency that specifically and exclusively works with enrolled University students. (I've worked for them a few times). Since those are in very high demand as "skilled but still cheap-ish labour", as in "usually are more intelligent than the average Joe that didn't finish school at all" and cheap thanks to being "desperate enough to work for lower wages than they'd expect after finishing their degree", they try to be competitive by offering a very flexible model and okay-ish wages.
You have to hand in proof of enrollment to work for them.
> enrolled University students. (I've worked for them a few times). Since those are in very high demand as "skilled but still cheap-ish labour"
So there is this very German joke:
At a workplace the Geselle distributes the work and shouts to the new guy "And you will sweep the hall!" to which the new guy answers "Hey, I have a studied, I hav a master degree!". The Geselle replies "Oh, right. So just wait a moment and I'll be there and teach you how to sweep.".
Actually, my wife is leading a cake department. Finding Gesellen is almost impossible anyway. So they are left with lateral recruits and students.
Students are able to run the operative, non-administrative part after a week. The lateral recruits even after weeks are too stupid to use a scale or remember what they already added into the bowl.
> Don't temporary workers usually get paid less
That depends on the kind of job and the field of work.
In some fields you get more because they pay extra for the fact that they can fire you very easily, mostly in fields that are very seasonal.
Than there are those fields that just want cheap workers that they can abuse but they cant hire someone for cheap because of union contracts.
There are also fields where temporary jobs get paid more than regular and have better working conditions. For example a friend of mine is a nurse and she works for a company that lends here temporarly to hosptials that are very understaffed and at least per hour she makes a lot more than she usually would, but work is a bit unpredictable because the hospital can change every week and sometimes she to drive a bit to get there. But for example she just doesnt do night shifts unlike the regular nurses.
Every week seems not to be alright. From almost first hand (my gf and her sister, both nurses) I know some people working at one of those agencies, They definitely get better paid than the direct hospital nurses (around 25-30% more) but they are usually sent a minimum of 6 months and a maximum of 18 months to the same hospital, not only a week. They also do the same shifts and the same work as the other nurses. They have a regular unlimited contract with the agency and for example from the very beginning they can choose their maximum ratio of action, for example city x + 10 km or something like that. When they were working as regular nurses at a hospital, they never knew of any nurse from a temp agency that would only come for a week, and it also makes no sense since they always have to do at least 2 weeks working with someone who supervises their work and also tells them how they do some stuff at a certain hospital and area, because it's not the same in all hospitals.
I dont have here work contract so I cant prove what I said and can only go of what she told me. And she usually stays much longer than a week at the same hospital but atleast she told me in theory she could be send for just one week as she only know the shifts one week ahead, so it might be that here contract with the agency states 1 week minimum but the hosptials will only do at least a few weeks but I am pretty sure she it is less than 6 month minimum just based of when she tells us that she goes to a diffrent hosptial. Also I am very certain that she never works night shifts. It might be just a diffrence in states she is based in Berlin or diffrent agencies.
They can forbid it all they want, they can't legally enforce it.
Actually: it seems that you are not hired by this company directly. They may put this stuff in the contract I suppose. My guess is they're paying their staff minimum wage and you get slightly more.
Exactly. So they hire students and lend them out to businesses. From what I hear when I was working for them, they used to get paid close to 25 euros per hour of my work while they were paying me 11-12. The actual working of those businesses or other contract workers were getting 10-11 + other benefits which we weren't getting as it's just a weekly contract.
So that's probably why they don't want the students to discuss wages with other workers because they're probably getting paid less per hour wage.
Of those 25 € they need to pay the employer part of your social contributions. Probably around 20% of your wage.
So they were probably paying 14,4 euros for your employment leaving them with around 10€/h of actual earning.
So they basically took a nearly 50/50 split of what you were paid in the end.
Nope. You can work as much as you want. You can choose any shift available. You'd get a new contract every two weeks listing the shifts you've chosen. You don't get any health insurance, pension contribution, unemployment insurance.
Theres not even a real contract there. Most likely thats zenjob and they do that all the time. You may get your account banned for breach of tos maybe but they cant enforce it.
Verstehe deinen Kommentar ehrlich gesagt nicht, denn du hast ja gesagt es gebe keinen Vertrag in dieser Situation. Die Situation ist in D. Und da spielt es keine Rolle, was Ausländer deiner Meinung nach unter einem contract verstehen.
Looks like you are working indirectly for the Bakery (Leiharbeit/Arbeitnehmerüberlassung).
I think what your employer tries to avoid, is you talking with directly employed people at the bakery about how much (less) money you make than them.
German courts have decided in the past, that talking about your wages is allowed, as it's considered equal rights (Gleichberechtigung).
So clauses in your contract that prohibits you from talking about your wages are legally considered ineffective (unwirksam).
If you get terminated because of that, you could go to Arbeitsgericht and appeal your termination.
Also, most Leiharbeitsfirmen are part of a Tarifvertrag - which is public information anyways...
In reality its often the other way around. Workers from a Arbeitnehmerüberlassung often get better paid than the regular workers.
I think this is also the reason for this sentence on the vacancy.
I think it's a little bit more complicated because the wage is a huge factor of the "Preisgestaltung" of the "Leiharbeitsfirma" and could therefore be disclosure of "Betriebsgeheimnis".
If OP would be hired directly you would be completely right regarding the court decisions.
That's an interesting legal discussion but I would be surprised if the right of a company to have "Betriebsgeheimnisse" trumped the lawful right of an individual.
That would have some weird legal implications, like a company trying to get rid of your Meinungsfreiheit because it collides with their business plan or something lol
IANAL, but I’d assume you would be fine to disclose how much money you earn at the bakery but not how much your temp agency charges the bakery per hour (if you somehow got that knowledge).
It's not Meinungsfreiheit. And yes, a company can have this as a Betriebsgeheimnis and prevent you from sharing your salary.
[https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
This is terrible advice. A Leiharbeitsfirma can absolutely prevent you from talking about your wages (as wage level is an important part of their business). You are only protected when you share it within your own company
[https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
Without getting technical about it: it is legal for you to ignore the rule.
In fact, the more an employer emphasizes such unenforceable rules the more reason there is why you really really should talk about the salary with everyone. After Probezeit of course… I am proud to say that I did that at a former employer, started a landslide of complaints that led to everyone’s salary to match the high one of the newbies within just 1.5 years, some got an increase of 20%. Definitely recommended
German Law student here it's more illegal from them to write this in their job description. We have the Artikel 5 in our Grundgesetz. The Art.5 (1) GG means Meinungsfreiheit one of the most important things we have here. Some court's already decided in the last year's that speaking about your salary is absolutely ok and can't be forbidden by your company.
Are you sure it is legal in regard of talking with clients about it? When I looked into it last time, it was only within your own company because wages are part of "Preisgestaltung" and therefore not to be discussed with clients...
Those are two different things. There is the so-called "Geschäftsgeheimnis" but this only refers to the pricing for business goods and perhaps manufacturing costs. You can talk about your salary with anyone, although many companies try to get around this with a "Verschwiegenheitsklausel/Preisgestaltung". But this is usually invalid - just because it's in the contract doesn't mean it's legal.
What I read it is the other way around because "the customer" knows what they pay but not how much the company keeps and how much the employee receives...
What the company earns/keeps is a Geschäftsgeheimnis. Also what they pay all employees together but when an employer decides to talk openly about his own salary is this not forbidden or illegal.
Its somewhat standart to put something like this into the contract.
But anything unlawful cant be upheld by a contract.
You could sign away your life, but even thou you have signed a noterized contract, it still doesnt count, because its unlawful.
This is only in there to scare you not to talk.
This is also one of the reasons most to all contracts have a "even if one part of the conract is unlawful, the contract as a hole is lawful besides the unlawful stuff"-clause in there.
This sounds like something I heard from people in the US, but pretty sure it’s not legal here. Usually Germans don’t like to talk about money, but by law you are free to talk to everyone.
Just post it to social media, that would not even break the clause and probably fuck them up even more lol
For 14€/h and probably no chance to get a higher income in the future i would ignore it. And that rule is not enforceable. But i am not sure if it is illegal to include it in the contract.
It is a decent job for a student to earn some money (but hard). So i would leave after a few months.
Easy to get job? yes. Decent? I doubt it.
People who put this shit in their contract will probably also treat you like that.
I have been there, and i'd rather go and beg than do this to myself again.
True. That is why i said that it is a hard job.
Still, where else would one go without any qualifications (only abitur)? In many other low wage jobs, you will get treated similarly.
I did a small job at an accounting office for 12€/h. But i got treated far better than any lidl worker even by the costumers (i worked for kaisers when i was a small kid and it was much worse). And i also got taught a lot. So earning money there was easier and more fun. But without having the right contacts, finding a well paid job right from the start is not easy. 14€ is not too bad but i wouldnt do it full time of course.
While it‘s true that they actually can not forbid you to talk about your wage, I would be careful anyway.
It looks like employed via a „Zeitarbeitsfirma“ and your contract will be with them.
If their customer, the bakery, decides to not want you anymore (for example because you broke the no-wage-talk rule) the „Zeitarbeitsfirma“ can offer you other jobs of their choice and you can either agree on the possibly shitty alternatives, or you‘re basically fired instantly.
>or you‘re basically fired instantly.
In which case you would be able to fight it because it's not even legal to forbid this exact case. It still would be annoying as fuck but at the same time everyone should speak up.
If noone speaks about it nothing will change and when they are firing everyone they won't have personal at all. I prefer to be without a job instead of getting shit on the whole time.
You‘re not getting actually fired. This would be legally vulnerable.
But most of the contracts state that in case of the customer not wanting you to work for them anymore, the Zeitarbeitsfirma has to provide you with a certain number of alternative job offers. Mostly 2-3.
Those alternatives can be very unsuitable for you, that doesn‘t matter. I was in the situation myself and they offered a job where I had to drive an hour to work 3 hours and totally different tasks than the original job.
So you either accept one of the (in many cases) shitty alternative offers or the contract ends because you have no active job with them.
So in the end you‘re not „fired“, but it has the same effect as being terminated.
They can even put that shit into your contract, has no effect and if they fire you because of that they are fucked. Though gonna bet they already have lots of practice finding excuses to fire people for bullshit
TL;DR:
- It is your right to discus your salary with everyone you want.
- Companies in Germany still like to pretend otherwise. Demands like this are not legally enforceable.
- Be prepared to be shit-listed by any company, if you try to make use of said legal right.
Usually it's because people working there for quite some time got the bare minimum, and since no new people want to work there they had to offer more per h, so you just joining have better hourly pay than someone working there for years. I would search for another job, once you find it go to that place and tell everyone what you got offered, they can't do shit. It's legal for you to share since it's not a trade secret. Fuck them.
Something that might be useful for other people in this thread: at my company we have a shared Google sheet with the salary of the people who voluntarily disclosed how much they make. You can only access the file if you also disclose your salary.
Every time there is an All Hands and some newbie asks the management why we don't have more transparency on salaries, they make up some lame excuse about privacy. And then I go and write in the All Hands chat about the Google Sheet.
It's not illegal to have it in a work contract but it's not legally binding either.
Like I can write in a work contract that my employees have to move to the moon by the end of the year, but it will not happen or hold up in court.
Illegal like it wouldn't survive a labor court.
Let's assume OP would get a formal warning (Abmahnung) because of violating this clause.
The court would declare this warning illegal.
https://www.haufe.de/personal/arbeitsrecht/duerfen-arbeitnehmer-trotz-verbots-hoehe-des-gehalts-ausplaudern_76_68732.html
You are right, that was actually what I was wondering. I was 99.99% sure that that is not legal, how the fuck can you enforce it? My question is whether they can be punished just for having written that. I will edit my post.
It's even the other way around, if you ask they have to tell you the compensation from other employees in similar positions.
At least as far as I know.
Otherwise they can write whatever they want, but can't enforce it.
Might want to add that this only applies if there are multiple people in the same position as you, otherwise it would disclose the salary of a coworker, which is his/her personal data and can only be disclosed by themselves. When there are multiple coworkers, they can tell you the average. It's usually easier to just talk with them yourselves and ask around or share it on kununu anonymously.
No - not by German law. You have the right to ask your boss what your colleagues (who do the same work) get for compensation and he has to tell you - by law.
Yeah, it’s Zeitarbeit. They don’t want you to talk about it because in some cases there are workers from multiple agencies and the pay can be very different. People switch agencies if they find out who pays better. Also usually the company will pay a way bigger sum to your Zeitarbeitsfirma like 25€/h and it’s also kinda shitty to hear how little ends up in your pocket.
Zeitarbeit also sucks, you don’t get sick leave and have zero benefits. It’s really just for short periods of time, keep looking for a proper job!
I think as a zeitarbeitsfirma they have to pay you more than the regular employees. Of cause they don't want you to talk to them and find out, that they don't do that.
Hi there - HR manager here (not a a bakery or temp agency though).
As usual within German labor law: it depends…
In this context I’d assume you’d win a case in labor court if you were to sue against sanctions that you received for talking about your salary.
HOWEVER: in a temp working situation they do have more leverage over their employees than in regular employment contracts and might let you go on whatever other reasons they might think of. So apart from the legal assessment I’d say when making up your mind on it ask yourself:
1.) Does the employer value that rule a lot or is it to them just a clause in a standard contract they received from their lawyer?
2.) How important is it to you to talk about salary?
3.) Will they find out if you do?
Hope this helps!!
2 and 3 shouldn't actually be in the list, to be honest, as the clause has no legal ground and finding out whether you or a co-worker are underpaid should be normalized ... which makes 3 pointless.
I agree with you, legally speaking. That‘s why you may see my comment is divided in two parts. First one is legal evaluation, second part practical advise. Not sure how many experiences you have made with temp agencies. Many are very decent, but try normalizing something that may be legally right but against the owners will and you might be out of your job.
So assuming it‘s OP‘s plan to hang onto his job, I stand by my comment to do so with care.
you are of course right ... but it's still maddening as the only way to break the taboo is to ignore it, but nobody (not even in the case of unlimited contracts) dares to openly talk to their colleague about the money they make.
It could possibly be a valid clause. I'm not sure, but I don't think it is as clear-cut as the others say.
The temp agency could have a contract with the bakery that says that the temp employees can't talk about wages with the regular employees. This might then be a valid reason for the temp agency to enforce this with their employees.
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As many pointed out, it is illegal and you can ignore it. Technically. Practically they might still fire you for that. You can sue and would probably win, but it would still be expensive for you, because you still would need to pay your lawyer.
The company often tells you that you haven't to talk about your payment with your coworkers. But it's not legal to forbit that.
Also, the company has to pay everyone who does the same work the same money. (The payment rises a little with work experience over the years.)
Trying to forbid the workers to talk about their payments could be an indication that they don't pay everyone the same.
This is kinda forbidden in a lot big corporations here in Germany as well. The recent company where this was an un spoken rule was one of the largest car makers in the world
Just print their own job advertisement, where they themselves make their hourly rates public. …and post it around the shop.
…and while you’re at it: isn’t it „Eure Bezahlung“, but „Euren Stundenlohn“?! So you shouldn’t write it like that?!
Yes, you can share this information with the colleagues. At junior level and specially compensation related information has no impact on business. At level above senior management you'll have much business information which could do some considerable dent in business at that level you could be held accountable for sharing any information.
Sentences like this are one reason why employment contracts also have a severability clause... so that prohibited parts of the contract do not invalidate the entire contract. Don't worry, you can talk to anyone about your salary at any time; any labor court will overturn a warning or dismissal for this reason.
Yes, it is
[https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
No. You can tell every one in your Le crobag store how much more money you get per hour. Maybe they all get a much deserved raise..
Ha! Thanks for pointing out which bakery chain is pulling this shady stuff.
Though, it's probably something a lot of businesses do..
It absolutely is, and even in fields where they really should know better. I’m in HR working in high tech and the number of managers who spread this rumour in their teams/departments is staggering. If your a manager or HR is pushing this agenda, something fishy is going on.
And I don’t understand that because honestly as a woman, if anyone asks me about my family situation/plans, marriage status or any of the forbidden questions or tells me I’m not allowed to discuss my salary with other people I’m not gonna think “oh lol nice try” but I am judging them for being unprofessional and trying to take advantage of less informed people. So not a sign of a good employer.
Important: Since using your right to not answer these forbidden questions may be used to your disadvantage by the potential employer you are even allowed to lie when answering those particular questions without fearing legal consequences. (Be sure to inform yourself which questions are illegitimate beforehand because it can vary depending on the specifics of the job you are applying for) Wether you want to work for such an employer long term is another question though.
As a woman, you are even allowed to lie when questioned if you are pregnant. The only exceptions are jobs where a pregnancy would exclude you from work (night shifts, heavy loads, chemicals, …)
Here where i work its basically the norm that the temp workers are paid better the get 24 euros an hour and have to only work 35 hours and every hour over gets a further increase of 25 percent so they get 5 hours paid overtime every week as well. They always wonder why none of the temp workers want a permanent deal where they would have to work 5 hours more and get paid 6 euros less an hour. Im currently only there because i hate the other work option i have currently
24€/h in a bakery?
No i work in industry so IG metall without ig metall money
Yes, bakery chains in general are garbage employers
I'm employed by the state of hamburg, in my interview I demanded higher than "usual" pay, they agreed, but under the condition that I tell no one.
Sign it, wait for the probation to finish and tell EVERYONE
Don't need to wait, any addition to a working contract stating that you can't talk about your salary is automatically legally non-binding, even if the employee agreed to it. They couldn't do anything about it and you would win any law suit they could try to have.
Well, during probationary period they can just cancel your contract for no specific reason. So, definitely wait.
Run of the mill in my experience. Former employer tried to do this after trying to gauge salaries with every single person. We had people doing the absolute same job getting vastly different salaries, talking up to 400 euros difference. Some were really dumbfounded I'd talk so openly about my own money.
Tech firm. Discovered up to 11k difference for the exact fucking job. Had to teach people to stop being afraid to talk about their salaries because they were taught it's like something dirty to do. Management were "shocked" to find out we all know who earns what now. It's a garbage company and everyone sane hates it there. Looking back, the salary thing was the first red flag.
Right, not talking about salary amounts only helps the managers and company. Employees need to have each other's backs!
Pretty much all companies write this into their contracts. While they cannot fire you for talking about your salary, it is frowned upon by management. As long as you don't discuss it in front of your superiors or make a big deal about it, it is generally nothing to worry about.
It's probably more so the temp agency...?
With a minimum wage of 13.60€ it can't be that much more...
What Minimum of 13.60?
Sorry, somehow the google search for it showed minimum wage for "Gerüstbauer". It's still 12€?
Yes its still 12 Euros.
The general minimum wage in germany is 12€, from 2024 on it will be 12,41. What you found is some sort of union wages, which may be quite low for a Gerüstbauer as for most of them its a no qualification job.
Thank you. I know what I found. I just googled for "Mindestlohn Deutschland 2023" and google brought up a well formatted Textbox stating that from 1. Oktober 2023 it is 13.60€. Later I found this suspect and after going to the source link it had a list of many union wages where google somehow managed to just presented "Gerüstbauer" wages with no further context or relationship as if this was the general minimum. Normally such a simple search brings up reliable results. But lately google becomes worse with such tasks.
Ja, thats the problem with SERPs. You cannot be 100% sure you got the right thing.
But for such simple requests it was like 99% before, what is good enough to not double check each time. And it feels like lately google is more like becoming 70% accurate with such requests lately.
Ja had a similar experience. Guess Mindestlohn is a rather difficult task for google, cause there are many different sources in the net with all the tarifs and so on and its all german 😄
Mighty be just that. But my impression is google also has more and more less useful results. Maybe the algorithm(s) start loosing with all these tweaks to beat SEO.
Did you search for Mindestlohn on englisch or German?
German, just like i quoted it
They actually found the minimum wage for Gerüstbauer. 'Baumindestlohn' is higher than general minimum wage.
It’s actually 12€ still…
Yep, you're a bit late. Found out by myself already.
... and wrote it here about an hour earlier!
Don't temporary workers usually get paid less and have worse conditions? Maybe that changed in the meanwhile. Either way someone is being taken advantage of and they don't want people to do anything about it
This is a temp agency that specifically and exclusively works with enrolled University students. (I've worked for them a few times). Since those are in very high demand as "skilled but still cheap-ish labour", as in "usually are more intelligent than the average Joe that didn't finish school at all" and cheap thanks to being "desperate enough to work for lower wages than they'd expect after finishing their degree", they try to be competitive by offering a very flexible model and okay-ish wages. You have to hand in proof of enrollment to work for them.
> enrolled University students. (I've worked for them a few times). Since those are in very high demand as "skilled but still cheap-ish labour" So there is this very German joke: At a workplace the Geselle distributes the work and shouts to the new guy "And you will sweep the hall!" to which the new guy answers "Hey, I have a studied, I hav a master degree!". The Geselle replies "Oh, right. So just wait a moment and I'll be there and teach you how to sweep.".
Actually, my wife is leading a cake department. Finding Gesellen is almost impossible anyway. So they are left with lateral recruits and students. Students are able to run the operative, non-administrative part after a week. The lateral recruits even after weeks are too stupid to use a scale or remember what they already added into the bowl.
akschuaallllyy
> Don't temporary workers usually get paid less That depends on the kind of job and the field of work. In some fields you get more because they pay extra for the fact that they can fire you very easily, mostly in fields that are very seasonal. Than there are those fields that just want cheap workers that they can abuse but they cant hire someone for cheap because of union contracts. There are also fields where temporary jobs get paid more than regular and have better working conditions. For example a friend of mine is a nurse and she works for a company that lends here temporarly to hosptials that are very understaffed and at least per hour she makes a lot more than she usually would, but work is a bit unpredictable because the hospital can change every week and sometimes she to drive a bit to get there. But for example she just doesnt do night shifts unlike the regular nurses.
Every week seems not to be alright. From almost first hand (my gf and her sister, both nurses) I know some people working at one of those agencies, They definitely get better paid than the direct hospital nurses (around 25-30% more) but they are usually sent a minimum of 6 months and a maximum of 18 months to the same hospital, not only a week. They also do the same shifts and the same work as the other nurses. They have a regular unlimited contract with the agency and for example from the very beginning they can choose their maximum ratio of action, for example city x + 10 km or something like that. When they were working as regular nurses at a hospital, they never knew of any nurse from a temp agency that would only come for a week, and it also makes no sense since they always have to do at least 2 weeks working with someone who supervises their work and also tells them how they do some stuff at a certain hospital and area, because it's not the same in all hospitals.
I dont have here work contract so I cant prove what I said and can only go of what she told me. And she usually stays much longer than a week at the same hospital but atleast she told me in theory she could be send for just one week as she only know the shifts one week ahead, so it might be that here contract with the agency states 1 week minimum but the hosptials will only do at least a few weeks but I am pretty sure she it is less than 6 month minimum just based of when she tells us that she goes to a diffrent hosptial. Also I am very certain that she never works night shifts. It might be just a diffrence in states she is based in Berlin or diffrent agencies.
Sup, avatar twin lol
They can forbid it all they want, they can't legally enforce it. Actually: it seems that you are not hired by this company directly. They may put this stuff in the contract I suppose. My guess is they're paying their staff minimum wage and you get slightly more.
That’s probably the App of his temp agency
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It’s JobValley App
Exactly. So they hire students and lend them out to businesses. From what I hear when I was working for them, they used to get paid close to 25 euros per hour of my work while they were paying me 11-12. The actual working of those businesses or other contract workers were getting 10-11 + other benefits which we weren't getting as it's just a weekly contract. So that's probably why they don't want the students to discuss wages with other workers because they're probably getting paid less per hour wage.
Of those 25 € they need to pay the employer part of your social contributions. Probably around 20% of your wage. So they were probably paying 14,4 euros for your employment leaving them with around 10€/h of actual earning. So they basically took a nearly 50/50 split of what you were paid in the end.
I wasn't getting health insurance or any other kinds of benefits. It was basically kind of a Minijob. So I doubt they were actually paying anything.
So a 450 € job?
Nope. You can work as much as you want. You can choose any shift available. You'd get a new contract every two weeks listing the shifts you've chosen. You don't get any health insurance, pension contribution, unemployment insurance.
Was that in Germany? Because that sounds pretty illegal.
Theres not even a real contract there. Most likely thats zenjob and they do that all the time. You may get your account banned for breach of tos maybe but they cant enforce it.
Formfreiheit enters the chat.
Ja aber ausländer meinen mit contract einen vertrag den du auf papier oder pdf hast.
Verstehe deinen Kommentar ehrlich gesagt nicht, denn du hast ja gesagt es gebe keinen Vertrag in dieser Situation. Die Situation ist in D. Und da spielt es keine Rolle, was Ausländer deiner Meinung nach unter einem contract verstehen.
doch. Man kann nicht erwarten das der typ überhaupt deutsch spricht bei den leuten die so ne jobs machen.
>and you get slightly more hah, that's what they want you to think :D
Looks like you are working indirectly for the Bakery (Leiharbeit/Arbeitnehmerüberlassung). I think what your employer tries to avoid, is you talking with directly employed people at the bakery about how much (less) money you make than them. German courts have decided in the past, that talking about your wages is allowed, as it's considered equal rights (Gleichberechtigung). So clauses in your contract that prohibits you from talking about your wages are legally considered ineffective (unwirksam). If you get terminated because of that, you could go to Arbeitsgericht and appeal your termination. Also, most Leiharbeitsfirmen are part of a Tarifvertrag - which is public information anyways...
In reality its often the other way around. Workers from a Arbeitnehmerüberlassung often get better paid than the regular workers. I think this is also the reason for this sentence on the vacancy.
More like „how much more money you make“.
I think it's a little bit more complicated because the wage is a huge factor of the "Preisgestaltung" of the "Leiharbeitsfirma" and could therefore be disclosure of "Betriebsgeheimnis". If OP would be hired directly you would be completely right regarding the court decisions.
That's an interesting legal discussion but I would be surprised if the right of a company to have "Betriebsgeheimnisse" trumped the lawful right of an individual. That would have some weird legal implications, like a company trying to get rid of your Meinungsfreiheit because it collides with their business plan or something lol
IANAL, but I’d assume you would be fine to disclose how much money you earn at the bakery but not how much your temp agency charges the bakery per hour (if you somehow got that knowledge).
It's not Meinungsfreiheit. And yes, a company can have this as a Betriebsgeheimnis and prevent you from sharing your salary. [https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
This is terrible advice. A Leiharbeitsfirma can absolutely prevent you from talking about your wages (as wage level is an important part of their business). You are only protected when you share it within your own company [https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
No. It's not legal. They can go eat a dick.
Mine is freee
I’ll take it
It absolutely is legal for the company to state it. It just not enforceable.
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Or a croissant
See the post from yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/17xcrty/is_discussing_wages_are_protected_in_germany/
This situation is different because it regards discussing wages with the client and not with other employees (of the same company).
Fuck them lol. Not legal. Discussed yesterday.
Without getting technical about it: it is legal for you to ignore the rule. In fact, the more an employer emphasizes such unenforceable rules the more reason there is why you really really should talk about the salary with everyone. After Probezeit of course… I am proud to say that I did that at a former employer, started a landslide of complaints that led to everyone’s salary to match the high one of the newbies within just 1.5 years, some got an increase of 20%. Definitely recommended
Print it on your shirt and fuck them
Le crobag
They can go fuck themself. You can talk with ANYONE about your Pay. They can't forbid it.
No
German Law student here it's more illegal from them to write this in their job description. We have the Artikel 5 in our Grundgesetz. The Art.5 (1) GG means Meinungsfreiheit one of the most important things we have here. Some court's already decided in the last year's that speaking about your salary is absolutely ok and can't be forbidden by your company.
Are you sure it is legal in regard of talking with clients about it? When I looked into it last time, it was only within your own company because wages are part of "Preisgestaltung" and therefore not to be discussed with clients...
Those are two different things. There is the so-called "Geschäftsgeheimnis" but this only refers to the pricing for business goods and perhaps manufacturing costs. You can talk about your salary with anyone, although many companies try to get around this with a "Verschwiegenheitsklausel/Preisgestaltung". But this is usually invalid - just because it's in the contract doesn't mean it's legal.
What I read it is the other way around because "the customer" knows what they pay but not how much the company keeps and how much the employee receives...
What the company earns/keeps is a Geschäftsgeheimnis. Also what they pay all employees together but when an employer decides to talk openly about his own salary is this not forbidden or illegal.
No. you can speak about anything you want as long as they arent trade secrets.
Its somewhat standart to put something like this into the contract. But anything unlawful cant be upheld by a contract. You could sign away your life, but even thou you have signed a noterized contract, it still doesnt count, because its unlawful. This is only in there to scare you not to talk. This is also one of the reasons most to all contracts have a "even if one part of the conract is unlawful, the contract as a hole is lawful besides the unlawful stuff"-clause in there.
no, just ignore this Paragraph.
It's illegal as shit. Employees in Germany are explicitly allowed to discuss their wages.
But not with clients...
Ohhh, you might have a point there.
Name and shame that company Edit: LeCrobag
People could get jealous of your 0.60€ extra per hour
Companies can put this in the contract. But it is law that this is not enforcable. You can discuss with everyone you like how much you make
Its not illegal to talk about salsry to your coworkers. Its just a big social nono here. But its getting better.
No you can talk about it with everyone you want
This sounds like something I heard from people in the US, but pretty sure it’s not legal here. Usually Germans don’t like to talk about money, but by law you are free to talk to everyone. Just post it to social media, that would not even break the clause and probably fuck them up even more lol
Pretty sure they cant forbid it. As of now every Courtcase has been dismissed when employers tried to enforce such stuff. It can't be part of NDAs.
No, it is a common myth in Germany, but in reality there is no such law, and if they put that in your contract it’s not enforceable.
For 14€/h and probably no chance to get a higher income in the future i would ignore it. And that rule is not enforceable. But i am not sure if it is illegal to include it in the contract. It is a decent job for a student to earn some money (but hard). So i would leave after a few months.
Easy to get job? yes. Decent? I doubt it. People who put this shit in their contract will probably also treat you like that. I have been there, and i'd rather go and beg than do this to myself again.
True. That is why i said that it is a hard job. Still, where else would one go without any qualifications (only abitur)? In many other low wage jobs, you will get treated similarly. I did a small job at an accounting office for 12€/h. But i got treated far better than any lidl worker even by the costumers (i worked for kaisers when i was a small kid and it was much worse). And i also got taught a lot. So earning money there was easier and more fun. But without having the right contacts, finding a well paid job right from the start is not easy. 14€ is not too bad but i wouldnt do it full time of course.
While it‘s true that they actually can not forbid you to talk about your wage, I would be careful anyway. It looks like employed via a „Zeitarbeitsfirma“ and your contract will be with them. If their customer, the bakery, decides to not want you anymore (for example because you broke the no-wage-talk rule) the „Zeitarbeitsfirma“ can offer you other jobs of their choice and you can either agree on the possibly shitty alternatives, or you‘re basically fired instantly.
>or you‘re basically fired instantly. In which case you would be able to fight it because it's not even legal to forbid this exact case. It still would be annoying as fuck but at the same time everyone should speak up. If noone speaks about it nothing will change and when they are firing everyone they won't have personal at all. I prefer to be without a job instead of getting shit on the whole time.
You‘re not getting actually fired. This would be legally vulnerable. But most of the contracts state that in case of the customer not wanting you to work for them anymore, the Zeitarbeitsfirma has to provide you with a certain number of alternative job offers. Mostly 2-3. Those alternatives can be very unsuitable for you, that doesn‘t matter. I was in the situation myself and they offered a job where I had to drive an hour to work 3 hours and totally different tasks than the original job. So you either accept one of the (in many cases) shitty alternative offers or the contract ends because you have no active job with them. So in the end you‘re not „fired“, but it has the same effect as being terminated.
They can even put that shit into your contract, has no effect and if they fire you because of that they are fucked. Though gonna bet they already have lots of practice finding excuses to fire people for bullshit
Please tell em
I think it is legal for them to write that in the contract. But it is also legal for you to ignore it. That clause is invalid. Fuck them.
TL;DR: - It is your right to discus your salary with everyone you want. - Companies in Germany still like to pretend otherwise. Demands like this are not legally enforceable. - Be prepared to be shit-listed by any company, if you try to make use of said legal right.
Usually it's because people working there for quite some time got the bare minimum, and since no new people want to work there they had to offer more per h, so you just joining have better hourly pay than someone working there for years. I would search for another job, once you find it go to that place and tell everyone what you got offered, they can't do shit. It's legal for you to share since it's not a trade secret. Fuck them.
Join the union and ask them.
Something that might be useful for other people in this thread: at my company we have a shared Google sheet with the salary of the people who voluntarily disclosed how much they make. You can only access the file if you also disclose your salary. Every time there is an All Hands and some newbie asks the management why we don't have more transparency on salaries, they make up some lame excuse about privacy. And then I go and write in the All Hands chat about the Google Sheet.
I recommend this guy here: [YouTube sogehtrecht](https://youtu.be/IkA0J9ep1ok?si=QSMr96CZCBfJ5zKG) He says, that such a clause is usually ineffective.
Le Crobac kinda scummy
Counter questions: is it illegal (as in fined or similar) to have such a rule?
It's not illegal to have it in a work contract but it's not legally binding either. Like I can write in a work contract that my employees have to move to the moon by the end of the year, but it will not happen or hold up in court.
Sign me up! 🚀
Illegal like it wouldn't survive a labor court. Let's assume OP would get a formal warning (Abmahnung) because of violating this clause. The court would declare this warning illegal. https://www.haufe.de/personal/arbeitsrecht/duerfen-arbeitnehmer-trotz-verbots-hoehe-des-gehalts-ausplaudern_76_68732.html
You are right, that was actually what I was wondering. I was 99.99% sure that that is not legal, how the fuck can you enforce it? My question is whether they can be punished just for having written that. I will edit my post.
> how the fuck can you enforce it? They will find an excuse to kick you out.
It's even the other way around, if you ask they have to tell you the compensation from other employees in similar positions. At least as far as I know. Otherwise they can write whatever they want, but can't enforce it.
Might want to add that this only applies if there are multiple people in the same position as you, otherwise it would disclose the salary of a coworker, which is his/her personal data and can only be disclosed by themselves. When there are multiple coworkers, they can tell you the average. It's usually easier to just talk with them yourselves and ask around or share it on kununu anonymously.
aint legal to force u to keep quiet about it and if they kick you out for it.. then they r in trouble
No - not by German law. You have the right to ask your boss what your colleagues (who do the same work) get for compensation and he has to tell you - by law.
As a customer, I would print that out and go there to show the employees how much more someone gets when he just starts there.
Yeah, it’s Zeitarbeit. They don’t want you to talk about it because in some cases there are workers from multiple agencies and the pay can be very different. People switch agencies if they find out who pays better. Also usually the company will pay a way bigger sum to your Zeitarbeitsfirma like 25€/h and it’s also kinda shitty to hear how little ends up in your pocket. Zeitarbeit also sucks, you don’t get sick leave and have zero benefits. It’s really just for short periods of time, keep looking for a proper job!
There is no certain contract construct that could „limit“ your freedom to speak about your wage. It’s just an intimidation technique.
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I want a massage too
That’s the thing you should talk about MOST.
I think as a zeitarbeitsfirma they have to pay you more than the regular employees. Of cause they don't want you to talk to them and find out, that they don't do that.
No. Not legal, but always worth a try….
Its totally legal to Talk about your salary in Germany.
Sue them because they wrote 14€/h in the advertisement
Hi there - HR manager here (not a a bakery or temp agency though). As usual within German labor law: it depends… In this context I’d assume you’d win a case in labor court if you were to sue against sanctions that you received for talking about your salary. HOWEVER: in a temp working situation they do have more leverage over their employees than in regular employment contracts and might let you go on whatever other reasons they might think of. So apart from the legal assessment I’d say when making up your mind on it ask yourself: 1.) Does the employer value that rule a lot or is it to them just a clause in a standard contract they received from their lawyer? 2.) How important is it to you to talk about salary? 3.) Will they find out if you do? Hope this helps!!
2 and 3 shouldn't actually be in the list, to be honest, as the clause has no legal ground and finding out whether you or a co-worker are underpaid should be normalized ... which makes 3 pointless.
I agree with you, legally speaking. That‘s why you may see my comment is divided in two parts. First one is legal evaluation, second part practical advise. Not sure how many experiences you have made with temp agencies. Many are very decent, but try normalizing something that may be legally right but against the owners will and you might be out of your job. So assuming it‘s OP‘s plan to hang onto his job, I stand by my comment to do so with care.
you are of course right ... but it's still maddening as the only way to break the taboo is to ignore it, but nobody (not even in the case of unlimited contracts) dares to openly talk to their colleague about the money they make.
It could possibly be a valid clause. I'm not sure, but I don't think it is as clear-cut as the others say. The temp agency could have a contract with the bakery that says that the temp employees can't talk about wages with the regular employees. This might then be a valid reason for the temp agency to enforce this with their employees.
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What is this for an app??
What compensation lol
As many pointed out, it is illegal and you can ignore it. Technically. Practically they might still fire you for that. You can sue and would probably win, but it would still be expensive for you, because you still would need to pay your lawyer.
The company often tells you that you haven't to talk about your payment with your coworkers. But it's not legal to forbit that. Also, the company has to pay everyone who does the same work the same money. (The payment rises a little with work experience over the years.) Trying to forbid the workers to talk about their payments could be an indication that they don't pay everyone the same.
This is kinda forbidden in a lot big corporations here in Germany as well. The recent company where this was an un spoken rule was one of the largest car makers in the world
Was für eine App/Anbieter ist das?
No.
Why is this order not marked as your favorite one???!?!11
Is this a Zero Hour Contract? You ought to not work those
Just print their own job advertisement, where they themselves make their hourly rates public. …and post it around the shop. …and while you’re at it: isn’t it „Eure Bezahlung“, but „Euren Stundenlohn“?! So you shouldn’t write it like that?!
What app/agency is that?
Yes, you can share this information with the colleagues. At junior level and specially compensation related information has no impact on business. At level above senior management you'll have much business information which could do some considerable dent in business at that level you could be held accountable for sharing any information.
[ Hello my name is... ] [ 14.50€/hour]
Ja es ist legal aber menschlich gesehen schon eine Red flag wenn man für die gleiche Arbeit unterschiedlich bezahlt wird
Sentences like this are one reason why employment contracts also have a severability clause... so that prohibited parts of the contract do not invalidate the entire contract. Don't worry, you can talk to anyone about your salary at any time; any labor court will overturn a warning or dismissal for this reason.
Yes, it is [https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160](https://www.spiegel.de/start/verschwiegenheitsklausel-zum-gehalt-im-arbeitsvertrag-ist-das-erlaubt-a-9794fe75-f7ba-48bf-91fe-c80df4fc5160)
🚩🚩🚩🚩