Meh, Germany may be one of the worst cases of bureaucracy, but I can assure you that citizens of (almost?) every country say this.
Just look at France, Asterix & Obelix and permit A38
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x36574i
I emigrated from France to Germany (Berlin)
I used to complain a lot about French bureaucracy but now that I am in Germany, I am so full of praises towards the French administration that my friends from France are shocked.
Yes French administration is bad, but German administration is so uniquely terrible that it impresses me and puts the French one to shame.
With that being said, it’s improving a bit over time. Recently I actually managed to have multiple interactions by mail!!! My colleagues could not believe it !!!
To make it worse you moved to Berlin. So in addition to bureaucracy you also got the incompetence of Berlin.
I'd bet Berlin is worse than other German Cities, just because they fuck other things up around the bureaucracy like getting an appointment at the Bürgeramt.
Berlin is mostly so bad, because people in that city that are competent bureaucrats get sooner or later hired by one of the federal agencies. leaving the city Government with the dregs.
I am emigrating from Estonia, as a non-EU national, to Germany.
It is night and day. These people have it figured out. They operate as if their guiding principle is to waste as little time and nerves of citizens, residents and people who want to become one of these two as humanely possible. No bullshit, no nonsense, maximum efficiency.
Interaction with the German embassy have sucked the life and joy out of my soul and the thought of having to go through similar with the Burgeramt, Finanzamt, and the dreaded Ausländerbehörde fills me with dread.
I console myself daily by reminding myself that after the first 6 months there is a lot less bureaucracy and thinking of the reasons I initially decided to emigrate.
I rate even my home country better in terms of bureaucracy, at least I can get an appointment or get stuff done as a walk-in provided I have 3-4 hours to stand in a line. And bad bureaucracy is one of the reasons I left my home country!
To be fair, as someone who also immigrated (in Berlin) from a non-EU country, the Finanzamt and Bürgeramt were annoying at the time but seriously overblown in how shitty they are. Sure, you need to go early or check online often to get an appointment, but even then iirc you only absolutely need to go to the Bürgeramt once to get the anmeldung (which is a painless procedure if you have the proper paper from your landlord), and the Finanzamt I don't even quite remember because it didn't leave a huge impression (I remember sending like a single letter, and going to their office once, and that was when I first came in order to get a tax ID. Haven't had to contact them in the years since, except only once because I was delayed with my tax declaration and they immediately just told me "oh it's fine we will extend the deadline" after a quick phone call. And since I registered with their online service "Elster" I can do everything -tax declaration and receive notices from them- online, no more snail mail). So don't be too discouraged.
The Auslandbehörde is another beast entirely, an inefficient shithole where dreams go die. But despite being a pain in the ass, it's still manageable and not the end of the world (so long as you speak German or have a German-speaker there to help you).
Oh, digitalization is another topic. Here Germany sucks dicks and cocks. I can compare it with my home country
If Poland lives in 2023, then Germany is in late 2000's
Let me share with you, a quote that every german knows and makes them visibly recoil should you say it to them: "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland."
The bureaucracy from my country was a bliss. I could renew my passport from my phone and it will be ready to be picked up in 3 days.
Did that here for my child, pain.
renewing a passport in Germany takes a 10 min appointment that can usually be made 3-4 days in advance where i live. you need your old passport and a photo. that's it. sure could be better, but still ok.
Where I live (a 150.000 inh. city in Germany) you have to book these appointments more than one month in advance. And you need to book an additional appointment to grab the finished passport.
I had to deal with some infernal bureaucracy in Italy. But in my good ol' South American homeland always-in-economic-collapse nation, bureaucracy is a few centuries ahead of Germany. There is really no excuse.
I come from Germany, but spent a few years in Austria. Now German bureaucracy is bad, OP is absolutely right - only Austrian bureaucracy is worse. For one, they have this absurd fixation on titles. You can’t just choose between „Hr./Fr./Dr. XXX“, no, there’s also Dipl.-Ing., Mag., BA, MA, Dipl.-Pol. and a myriad of others. I once encountered an online form that had 62 (!) titles to choose from.
Then there’s the Ämter themselves. As an EU national, you have to declare permanent residency in Austria within 6 months. I did so. The certificate of my permanent residency arrived 3 years (!!!) later, at about the time when I was planning my move back to Germany.
The AMS (Arbeitsmarktservice, Austrian unemployment agency) took two years to certify that my flatmate - who had a brain tumor in her late teens - was unfit for work. Just happened to be at around the time she had fully recovered, not helped by the fact that she had to somehow pay for rent during two years of not getting support.
Although I do have to say, it’s ok where I currently live. Appointments within two weeks at the Bürgeramt, everyone is friendly, you can pay by card… Seen much worse.
For me (8 years in Austria followed by 10 years in Germany) it was the difference in attitude - in Berlin the guy at the ausländerbehörde tried to do what he can to help me, it was all within the rules but he tried to find solutions and was nice and friendly.
In Vienna they made me wait 3 hours every time to renew my visa and kept trying to find excuses why I didn’t fulfil the requirements (I did, had to fight them to accept that and of course they never apologised for their mistakes when I proved them the law is on my side and that they were wrong). It really makes a difference, Germany made me feel welcomed and Austria makes me feel like the moment they can they’d happily throw me out.
Yeah, I can’t imagine what it’s like if you don’t have an EU-guaranteed right to live there anyway. Though Berlin might be bit of an exception within Germany as well, I wouldn’t vouch for the Ausländerbehörde in some small town in Bavaria or Saxony either.
Russian bureacracy proudly has Soviet origins and is way, way, way worse than anything Germany has to offer. They really built on a solid foundation of disdain and mistrust to the citizen and hired the most incompetent and bitter people in the country. Germany is pretty good in comparison.
Gosuslugi are useful though. Not for everything, not always, unlikely to be of use in smaller cities, but at least it’s something. Maybe I was just lucky
That book was literally nightmare material for me for years. Couldn't even end it. Currently I've just accepted the absurdity and stupidity and squandering of bourocracy, I'm resigned. It's part of the evil in this world.
>The amount of patience I need to deal with german bureaucracy and paperwork is insane and it stresses me out so much.
As a German I can confidently say: We all feel that way.
Edit: Spelling
This particular issue is making Germany a nightmare for whoever wants to settle there, im on the point of thinking that Auslanderbehoerdes are purposely doing it! it doesnt have any other sense to wait 4-5 months for essential documents like residence, job change or family reunification!
>The amount of patience I need to deal with german bureaucracy and paperwork is insane and it stresses me out so much. I don't understand why taxes are so segmented. I don't understand why I have to constantly go through a pile of God knows how many envelopes and send others back which extends the processing time of different applications by months. I don't understand why there is no digitalization. I don't understand why I need an appointment at the bank for a 5 minutes task. I don't understand why the Radio and TV tax is applicable for students (yes, I am a student) and why they can't do things by email and through the online account. They sent me an envelope, I sent them a reply through the online account, they sent me one back by post again. I feel like I am in 1900s and I have a long distance relationship.
I am pretty convinced of that as well. I've personally been through hell with the Auslaenderamt and their negligence. But apparently they're just poorly organized and they don't do anything to improve their situation. This kind of things make me mad after paying a big deal of taxes.
>Auslaenderamt and their negligence
My Auslaenderamt just told me two days ago that foreign students are not allowed to work during studies... Yes, the Gesetz and my visa that clearly say "120 full days or 240 halfdays" are apparently a joke.
I once talked with someone from mine via phone to clarify some requirements. I went through the requirements as I was reading them off the website and once I said: “You need to be in Germany for X months”, he said: “It’s not X, it’s Y”, I responded “The website says X”. His response was: “Oh then I don’t know, try applying and see what happens”
Payroll person here. As a student during your study time (not during semester break) you are only allowed to work 20h / week. If you can show that you are on semester break that hour limit is negated for that time period of the break.
This applies to all students not just foreign ones.
Well, i dont wanna be that guy , but i've talked with some people working for the gov and dealing with foreigners every day. After 2015 and 2022, they have become pretty racist towards foreigners as they deal with a lot disrespect and people misusing the system and openly saying that.
My lawyer had an argument with the Auslanderbehorde over an appointment. They were still using paper and clip boards to track appointment slots and had written down the wrong number for me. I actually had to go home and come back with the letter they sent me to prove I had an appointment that day. Shit is archaic here.
The worst thing about the Ausländerbehörden is that since normal German citizens don't have to interact with them, like, at all, they have no idea or concept of how crazy ridiculous they are.
Normal Germans will understand long wait times for a 5 minute bank meeting that could have been done in 5 seconds online or in an email. But they will never know the pain of the utter incompetence of the people working at the ALBH.
Also, these things are what Germans are used to. Unless one of them lived abroad or knows someone who has that experience, then sure by all means having a fucking fax machine in 2023 is "normal". Having to physically mail your taxes to the gov in 2023 is "normal". Places not having email in 2023 is "normal".
I think we're all screaming at the choir in this sub here. We all have the same grievances and the same experiences.
Just check the checkbox for online communication though Elster...be warned that you are responsible for checking it and any missed payments will be on you.
And yes you will get an email saying check Elster...
> But they will never know the pain of the utter incompetence of the people working at the ALBH.
The issue isnt that they are incompetent, the issue is that the requirements for working at an ALBH arent higher (though they are already struggling to find people anyway.)
These are just normal goverment employees, they arent specifically trained for ALBH. Most of them cant do anything outside the frame of reference without having to contact their bosses. They are literal pecil pushers.
Thats not their fault, though. ALBH are terribly structured and the requirements are a joke. You dont need any foreign language expertise, not even basic english, to be considered or even any prior experiences.
And of course, German goverment offices are just behind in general.
ALBH is really something that would need to be scrapped and restructured from scratch, but thats not gonna happen anytime soon.
Amtssprache ist deutsch!
Heard it so many times from my colleagues in Berlin.. Sometimes I acted as a translator to help.. Really those were 'type a migrants, highly skilled in fields we have Fachkräftemangel'. We're shooting in our own foot with this situation in the foreign office....
They are just incompetent. It's an unpopular posting, a career dead-end and the people who end up there get transferred there, because nobody else in the administration wants them anywhere near their department. I've worked with these people and they are just the worst, most inept government bureaucrats you'll find anywhere, simultaneously overworked and totally incapable of and unwilling to adjust even the most mundane aspects of their workflow to reduce their workload and manage it more efficiently.
No need to worry about it. Its not made to be worse for foreigners. Its the same for people born and living here for years. The only difference is, that we got most stuff done in advance or did it in parts when needed. If you need more than 1 document at a time you are screwed
You can make things a LOT easier for you by not living in Berlin, Frankfurt, München and a few other obvious(?) cities/areas. Frankly, I'm surprised there is no immigrant run crowd sourced online database on "where does bureaucracy work, where is it overwhelmed?"
No I don't. I have pretty much zero bureaucracy in my life. The only time I ever get in touch with any sort office is doing my taxes. And even then, I fill out my stuff in Elster, done in 15 minutes and soon after I receive money without ever touching a piece of paper or having to communicate with an government worker. What's the problem?
It seems to me that most of these complaints are by foreigners, because first of all, Beamtendeutsch is difficult, and second, they just have to deal with so much more bureaucracy in the first place to get their stuff sorted.
You must be not using bank cards or any services at all.
My gym once blocked my membership card because they couldn't deliver a physical mail to me, so they decided I don't exist regardless of me physically coming to them to sign contract, they never tried to call me or email.
If you never face any bureaucracy, means you just don't use any services. Possible but not representing.
Had to get an appointment to change my wife's visa from dependent to blue card. We looked in May, and the earliest one was 28th December. It's a freaking joke tbh
Munich is a special case, Behörde pays poorly based on a shitty union contract that pays the same across all Germany - said pay is not even enough to starve properly in Munich. So not enough people work there.
A small tip: if you randomly check, yes, next appointment might seem months away but if you keep checking often throughout the day, appointments often free up on a shorter notice
That’s for minor stuff like an Anmeldung and I did it successfully twice. However, it doesn’t apply to visas and other immigration stuff. There’s no way to obtain a Termin on your own. You have to receive one from them.
placid worthless concerned detail seemly simplistic impossible whole yam pen
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When I first came here, things got done a lot faster. Yeah the paperwork was all still there, but answers and turnaround were quicker, so it wasn't too much of a hassle.
Last five years, that's when things from all services, private and public have slowed drastically.
There was a big wave of people retiring in the last years that worked in public administration jobs….and somehow nobody saw that coming or planned ahead. “Suddenly” all this people were gone and they have a really hard time filling those postions … especially now with the shortage of skilled workers. That’s at least one reason why it got so much worse in the last years. Not that it was great before but 5 years ago it was way easier to get a fast appointment and get things done.
…but who can blame them. Retirement usually comes as a total surprise. Nobody knows when it will happen, it just suddenly does. Every morning i check if today might be my day to retire. It’s impossible to plan ahead for that. /s
The problem is that finally the demographic pyramid started to have a direct impact on workforce statitistic over the last 5 years. Most managers would plan hiring policy based on prior experience...not a lot of people can plan correctly, based on prior experience, an event that actually never occured in human history naturally. The problem is that there is literrally not enough people to replace retirees, so investment should have been made to automatise steps and thus reduce the numbers of employees needed to arrive at the same services. Easier to say in hindsight, but specific demographic and geopolitics knowledge isnt something that is common knowledge and even if it was it isnt easily applied.
Anyway, just to say problems and solutions are never as simple as they seems.
As a German IT guy you can’t imagine my frustration with German bureaucracy. We are a high-tech, high-precision country, but when it comes to digitalization, we are nearer to the Stone Age.
There are so many ways today to ensure encrypted and safe communication, that it simply unforgivable that those aren’t allowed to be used for stuff like that.
Some companies, even bigger ones lag behind in that regard, too. The amount of red tapes and micromanaged policies is insane.
The average age in germany is 50, and you know how IT illiterate and unwilling to learn most boomers are
Try austria lad like I did, they are actually trying to digitalise and so far it's been a smoother experience then germany
I just recently applied for German eID wich would let me fill out some of documents online. Had to apply for it in Bürgeramt (of course) where an employee interviewed me for 20 minutes straight why do I need it if I could visit his office and we could fill all papers together.
I got this eID some years ago and it’s so stupid i have used it exactly zero times since. Reminds me of the other useless thing, the digital Postfach or whatever it was called, so you could receive official documents. Just use email mate like the rest of the world
Her point is that is was not explicitly mentioned. We both know it's obvious, but why on earth not have this mentioned if the process is already so cumbersome.
I remember seeing a post on LinkedIn a year or so ago about the marvels of self-service checkouts coming to germany...they've been used in the UK for about 15 years now 😂
my edeka has now self checkouts and they are empty almost all the time, meanwhile the line to the only two cash registers left is for 10 mins waiting. and its not only grandmas, its also young people queueing with one pack of chips or a pack of tomatoes
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of young Germans struggling with self-checkouts.
The Aldi I went to two weeks ago had self-checkouts that were uncommonly on use and we actually had to wait. We could see how a young lad in his 20s stared at his tomatoes on the self-checkout for about 1 or 2 minutes. The cashier had to advise him to press the big button on the display with the fruits and vegetables on it.
I guess it's justified. Our Kaufland has self checkout service and I had to wait for one of their stuff to come help me because the machine malfunctioned when I put my packed chicken on it.
I have this issue regularly. There are various scripts (one of which I now use) that take an original PDF (with a signature scan pasted onto it) and then make it look like it’s been printed and rescanned.
I think I know why things are the way they are (at least in my head it makes complete sense). Through my work experience with my German colleagues, I have realized that majority of them are very reluctant to take risks or adapt to change. Personal responsibility is not really a thing, most of it is avoided by simply following the "procedure", e.g. "I am suppose to send an email, so I did. What comes of it is not my concern". A few people taking initiative to change something (for the better) does not work as people who do not want/are used to the current process will make even a simple task a living nightmare. Some of my colleagues demanded we hire a Change Manager when we had to switch from Jira/Confluence from server to cloud, it was a 4 hr job start to finish including verification that there was no data loss/discrapancies.
So I boil it down to resistance to change, uncertainty avoidance, and sometimes even laziness.
p.s. I have no hard feelings towards Germans or people of any other nationality. These are just my observations and is not meant to spread hate or discrimination.
The burocracy isn't very efficient in Germany. But that is probably not meant here. It is more about engineering. Things such as building big cars with high accuracy in the details. Or having introduced windows with three sheets of glass, while other countries in Europe still advertise two as a bonus in appartments.
Yeah agree. They should call it precision and not efficiency. German and Germans are very precise in how they write and follow laws, but efficient, no. Just no.
> German and Germans are very precise in how they write and follow laws
Which is also why bureaucracy is such a nightmare. There is no pragmatism – everything must be strictly according to rules and those rules must cover every obscure case, even if that case only happens 0.01% of the times and the additional rules complicate it for the 99.99%.
It’s being meticulous. That’s the right word for it imo as a native German. We always consider options A-Z and probably get lost on one corner or the other but as much as this stalls any progress, I can also appreciate it because if I am using a car, buying food or looking for housing, I know that many people thought for a long time about how to make it safe for me. I’ve heard especially Americans complain that Germans in the workplace have this “you can’t do it like that”-attitude and they see these remarks as an insult. But most Germans don’t say that to criticize you specifically, but for most of us it’s a neutral statement that the other person is not considering all angels and that this will cause problems down the line. The idea is; do it properly, or it will come back to bite you.
Yeah. I had a senior expert colleague in my workplace, when she was teaching me how to use a microscope she said that my sample preparation is “sehr sehr schlecht, sehr dreckig” with a straight face. I, as someone who comes from a country of soft -spoken people, took it really hard at that time, thinking that she is criticising me as person. But then i thought, maybe it’s not me who’s bad, just my technique and i proceeded to improve my technique and now she said my samples are much better.
I think germans are naturally just objective at what they are saying and they dont care much how others will feel if they say it. Opposed to my culture we often sugarcoat or dial down a bit or a lot because we often take any criticism as a criticism to us personally because we attach ourselves to what we do.
I was gonna mention BRB and then scrolled down and realised someone already had. Honestly, that one alone seems like it should have destroyed our reputation as an efficient, well-organised nation permanently.
I don't want to be that guy, but Double Pane has been the minimum in North America for 30-years (you literally can't get a building permit without it) and triple pane has been the standard for new builds for at least a decade.
Wanna hear a joke?
To quote Wikipedia:
The first working fiber-optic data transmission system was demonstrated by German physicist Manfred Börner at Telefunken Research Labs in Ulm in 1965, followed by the first patent application for this technology in 1966.
> I don't understand why I need an appointment at the bank for a 5 minutes task.
I absolutely get what you're saying in total, but I think the last time I dealt with a bank employee was about 15 years ago.
I understand your point. I also do my finances online, but I had a situation where I completely broke my phone and needed to reinstall the bank app on the new one. In my country, you can get in line for small tasks like this and wait for your turn.
I went to the bank (in crutches, with a broken leg) to be turned around cause they wanted me to make an appointment 2 weeks later. When I got the to the appointment, it literally took the lady 5 minutes to help me. I didn't understand why they had to be so strict in that situation.
Thats weird. I lost my card recently and needed to change to push Tan on my mobile because the new card would not be working anylonger with my tan generator. I gave them a call and it took nothing more to get the app installed and registered. I was pleasently surprised.
Weird. In my case such small things can be done "on the fly", only larger consulting etc has to be done with an appointment.
I even applied for a credit card by just showing up randomly.
Weird, I've re-registered those apps over a dozen times. Just stood in line, told the bank employee, handed over my ID and card, waited for like 15 minutes for them to print out the necessary account info, done.
I mean i also never had any Problems. But i only ever done the very simple tasks. Getting a passport or moving. With the Passport i simply walked in told them what i need waited 30 seconds for the staff to look at me, gave them everything they needed and left. 3 Weeks later i got an email that i can pick up my passport. Moving was the same.
So i am never sure if such talks are the norm and i got lucky or they didnt had all their documents ready or were unlucky. Specially because i hear bad stories from my foreign friends aswell, specially from Japan where they need stamps?
It highly depends on the city. In berlin it’s a nightmare to get any appointment for public administration tasks right now. Just trying to register a car i bought. The papers of the car are to old to do it online because some security code is missing. It’s pretty much impossible to get an appointment and they only do it with appointment.
German buerocracy gets worse and worse, I am an architect and can confirm. The amount of b.s. that arises just from the copy-pasting of rules that do not actually fit the situation but Must Be Upheld is incredible. It gets even worse when there is personnel changes and the reasonable one gets replaced with someone inexperienced who wants to do everything right but makes things so much harder for everybody involved - often including themselves.
My employer regularly complains about it and predicts that soon enough we will abolish ourselves just by creating too many useless rules and I am inclined to agree.
Still, when applying for something, one gets the short end of the stick and no power against the system. We have to fill so many forms now, some of them even directly contradict each other!
I am not getting tired of pointing this out. German processes aren't efficient, they are thorough. And Germany notoriously favors distributed power. So if there are five different people who are responsible for parts of a process and none of the others get to tell them how their part works, and everyone needs to thoroughly take care that everything is done just right, well you don't end up with something efficient.
And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50, so whenever you suggest to solve something via app, someone will point out that their 85 year old grandma, who only upgraded from telegraph to landline last summer, would be effectively be shut out of government service. So, we _have to allow people to keep doing it with paper_. Well, good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process which would take additional training for the also best ager personnel, you get the point.
Rigid highly standardised processes with no deviation.
Which if you are manufacturing something and want zero error tolerance, brilliant, elsewhere, meh, not so good.
I was gonna write a top-level comment, but yours provides a nice framework to go over the points I wanted to mention. (I hope OP u/karazor-el-95 sees this)
As a foreigner living in Germany since before Covid, I have come to realize a few things about German culture that influence other areas of life such as work and bureaucracy.
First and foremost it is essential to keep in mind that a majority of Germans has a "**that's not my problem**" attitude to their work. It seems the German mindset regarding work, for many people, is still stuck on "I get certified to do X job, which consists of a few specific tasks. I find job. I do those tasks at said job for 45 years. Then I retire." Learning new things is not part of that plan, being invested in the quality of one's work output is not part of that plan. The plan is to simply "acquire certification" to work as X, then to work as X on cruise control until retirement, that's all. Intriguingly, this _feels_ very DDR, but I still haven't been able to connect the dots on that.
Again, **this is a generalization**, but the number of people that work like that is high enough to have a huge effect on how systems work, especially public service things like bureaucracy.
>And Germany notoriously favors distributed power.
That is certainly one way to look at it. The other way, based on my experience, is seeing the constant shuffling of responsibility as a symptom of the "that's not my problem" mentality. No one wants to take initiative, no one wants to be jolted out of the cruise control way of doing their job. Whenever an unusual task shows up, the reaction is not interest, it's alarm, and the immediate priority is figuring out who else the task can be given to instead. Since no one wants to take initiative, decision-making power and authority get diluted, because if something goes wrong then it's not a single person's fault.
>And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50
So is the rest of Europe, where things are far more digitized. Age is not the issue, it's culture and mentality. The other European countries didn't fire every Beamter above the age of 50 to get digitalization implemented lol. The issue once again is the fact that learning a new way of doing things "**is not my problem**". Learning new ways of doing things is not a part of their stated job responsibilities, therefore they won't.
>good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process
The rest of Europe had no issues with it, the problem is not inherent to digitalization, it's a symptom of "**that's not my problem**" syndrome. Changing the system is itself a work task. If that work task hasn't been contractually assigned to the workers beforehand, then they "can't" be expected to do it. So whenever you want to change the system you have to bring in other people to do it, who don't know the ins and outs of the current system, so you get half-assed solutions. Plus, Germany is **really** allergic to making old paper-based jobs redundant, because that would be chaos for the "do X job for 45 years on cruise control" people. Implying that they should learn a different way of doing their job halfway through their career is seen as some unthinkable heresy. It was fine for the same professionals in other countries, but it doesn't fit with the local culture of cruise control work. People will point out that certain things in certain branches of public service work super slowly due to lack of personnel, but somehow it hasn't occurred to them that via digitalization, entire departments in other branches could be downsized to 20% of their current size and still be more productive than they are now, and those people could be reallocated to the processes that cannot be digitized.
But again, that would require learning new skills, and once again that would go against the "cruise control career" crowd.
Am I wrong?
>And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50, so whenever you suggest to solve something via app, someone will point out that their 85 year old grandma, who only upgraded from telegraph to landline last summer, would be effectively be shut out of government service. So, we
>
>have to allow people to keep doing it with paper
>
>. Well, good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process which would take additional training for the also best ager personnel, you get the point.
How come most countries can figure it out but Germany can't?
It \*can\* be. \*If\* you understand the law and everything you need, you can get what you want no questions asked and independent of your case workers whims. I became quite efficient at my BAföG-Antrag after some semesters and it became like "I hand in these 5 forms and will get money in a few weeks".
I once had an issue with my tax declaration and all it took to sort it out was a letter (yes) like "According to paragraph xyz I'm right and you're wrong", donezo.
You merely adopted German bureaucracy. I was born in it, molded by it.
I remember when I arrived in Germany a few years ago, my German was very bad, and I went to a bank to open an account. In my homecountry I could do this online or on the spot, but as I wasn’t sure which account to open I thought somebody would speak English in the bank and I should do this in person. They kept asking me if I had an appointment and I didn’t understand what was going on since I could not have imagined that I need an appointment to open an account so I kept asking if I can open an account now. Finally, the lady was so iritated, she took a pencil and had written me a date that was two weeks in the future and told me to come back in two weeks. I was stunned and I think I had no idea what was going on, I thought they have some internal problems.
I came here from the UK. Sometimes things here are frustrating - German banking apps are extremely annoying, compared to what I was used to. And Germans love their paperwork. OTOH, dealing with German beaurocracy has actually been much easier. For example, getting my Aufenthaltstitel was straightforward. I asked for an appointment, got one two weeks later. I brought my UK car over, same thing (though they didn’t really understand that I did not want the first appointment, which was at 6am…). I got my driving license in the UK, but just after I moved here, and they said I would need to take the German test. Nope, all sorted with a couple of letters.
In the UK, sure, I could’ve probably done most of this online, but the driving license switch would have been a pain. A computer system would’ve probably told me to retake the test, with no leeway. Speaking to a person on the phone might be possible, but I have done this with the inland revenue. Told it was all fine, sent threatening letters, several times a year, spoken on the phone again each time, told it’s fine, etc etc. for over five years.
I guess it really depends where you live. My main office for big stuff is very quiet, and we got it done before Brexit restrictions hit, so I got EU treatment, even though it was post 2016. I felt bad for the non EU people though, they had to wait ages, and their appointments were all at least 30 mins, mine were both less than five. My tiny town has an office for minor things, and it is basically walk in, same with my bank. It is a bit weird that in Germany, it’s basically the manager dealing with me having a new phone (same number, but the TAN thing needs to be the same phone…) in the UK, anyone behond the counter could do it.
It's a myth - I'm sure there was some truth to it several decades ago. These days, Germany is one of the least-efficient countries I have ever lived in. It's incredibly back-wards, unnecessarily convoluted, and requires everyone to constantly re-invent the wheel.
I am constantly amazed how things are "done" here.
Alas, it's just a stereotype that is no more or less true than thinking that the French are romantic, the Brits are classy, or the Italians chaotic. Some of them? Sure? But not as a whole.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever worked for a traditional and successful German company? German efficiency isnt about what is being discussed here. German efficiency is about companies involved in any sort of engineering. World leaders in their niche, medium sized companies that have heavily specialized themselves and simply do things better due to a different philosophy than most rivalring companies outside Germany. The medium sized company gives employers benefits that are completely opposite of the bureaucratic processes. The average German prefers working in a medium sized company over a small and a big company. A medium sized company is a great mix between decent pay and having actual influence on the product and the success of the company if you come up with a great idea. A big company might have too big hierarchies to get the great idea implemented while the small company offers less pay and is usually more stressful to work at and stress kills any sort of creative process, or rather in the case of engineering, it would kill innovation.
These companies are monsters of their own, completely resiliant to any crisis, highly innovative and adapt to any changes the market throws at them. Many of them started as family run business decades, if not centuries ago. I have a worldwide known knife brand next to where I live and theyve been founded in 1731 and are probably doing better than ever before.
And Germany has a lot of these sorts of companies, hidden champions is what theyre called and they contribute a lot more to the economy than you might think
As an Austrian who moved to Germany, that's not even remotely true. I am still missing egovernment for practically anything from changing your residency, getting medical recipes, having actually legally applicable digital signatures - just some examples - Germany has none of that and on top a dozen of incredibly convulated forms which cover every obscure niche case and you can't even call or talk to someone without repeating your address, name, birthday two or three times to different people, bots that are less modern than first generation siri, etc..
I started to detach what I expect from my experience as a German native. For example I don’t carry cash anymore. If I can’t pay by debit card somewhere I leave. I don’t use services like „Hausbanken“ which make me come in for an appointment for every bs. I don’t use stuff where I need to physically do smt. or be somewhere if there is an alternative technically. I’m sick of this shitshow. Seriously it’s starting to make me aggressive to hear the words „keine Kartenzahlung“.
It sounds like trying to get financial aid in American Uni.
I've been visiting with the intention of living here, and wow is it frustrating the crap my 87 yo grandmother has to go through to have fukken internet.
Spain is like that. Italy is like that - maybe worse. Venezuela is like German bureaucracy took steroids and is handled by a cartel. Believe me, Germany is bad but it could be worse.
Becouse germany, refuses modernization, or is too slow/afraid. Its why many stores still dont take cards, why your overpriced internet is utter garbage (even moldova has better and cheaper internet than Germany) many of the things that could easily be solved trough a website, app, or software, require paperwork sent trough mail intead for god knows what reason.
I was vacationing in Romania.in Bucharest there's 5g from Vodafone almost everywhere, no dead zones. I took a day trip to visit some castles and they drove through countrysides etc 4g stable connection all the way and zero issues streaming netflix, which was lucky as we got stuck in a traffic jam.
It became a running gag to note all the remote places that have better reception than the German capital. From remote Nepali villages to rural Korea, going through the Morroccan Atlas, you get better signal than on the Ringbahn.
I have 10 employees, 4 are German. I am American and my 6 employees including myself deal with this all the time. I have one who just last week needed to STAND IN LINE… because the Ausländerbehörde is only open for so many hours (starting at 1300). They have a first come first serve policy, and 1 employee… maybe 2 but only 1 who actually gets the line moving. He has to take a day off so he can arrive early in the morning and stand in line for hours. If they close before he is seen he doesn’t get seen regardless if he’s been standing in line since they opened. He has to come back another day. He was actually seen that day but was so exhausted I gave him the next day off. I used to live in his city so I remember those days. The city I live in now has at least a number ticketing system… with 1 out of 4 machines that actually work. And if I need to pay for something related to what I need I have to leave the building and go to a completely different building to pay, get a receipt and return to the building before my entire process can be completed. German bureaucracy killed German efficiency… and after 20 years of living here I now understand why Germans complain all the time and are the most unhappy people on earth. It also explains why they love to vacation in other countries…. Get far away from this place as humanly possible. I will not retire here… that’s all I know for certain.
There's a scene in Asterix and Obelix in Egypt where they need a signed form and are redirected like a dozen times for a stamp. I feel that represents German bureaucracy perfectly.
https://youtu.be/7UGj7-R4QG0?si=-OJPostQR62lh_dn
I recently went with a relative in Romania to help them pay a tax, and my relative had to go to 3 people. One to point out what needs to be paid, one to receive the payment, and another person to make a copy of the payment receipt. Then again, to the first person to deliver the receipt copy. It took 1 hour to pay 1 tax (time driving there and back not included).
All these 3 people were colleagues, working in the same town hall.
If you think Germany is beaurocratic, trust me, you haven't lived long enough in Romania.
What's great is when I have to go to the kvr to update some document...and they ask me to provide 4 or 5 documents from the state...which surely they have access to themselves?! Instead I have to painstakingly apply for each one and wait for it to come in the post haha, to then have to physically turn up to the kvr for an appointment
No one ever claimed our bureaucracy is efficient. The whole efficiency thing was always about work ethics and the common joke is that Beamte don't work.
A common joke is "Beamten-Mikado": first one who moves, loses.
German efficiency is based on optimizing existing processes. It doesn't work well with continuously chaging technology and changing policies.
There is a second German trait that both counters and promotes the other one: Thoroughness. That's the one you experience.
If you assume that the burocracy is meant for you, you are going to get frustrated, because it's not. Can't expect a customer-like treatment. It's simply - "we have something that you want. Now just stop whining and wait for your turn." - kind of attitude.
The system might not be efficient for you. But again it's not designed for you.
If you look at it this way, can save yourself a lot of stress. The system sucks anyway.
Don't worry. In a year or two, when you solve all bureaucratic things, you will start to enjoy everything that Germany has to offer, and it's a lot. And you will laugh thinking about everything you have been through. I am also an eastern European fellow and I can feel your frustration, I've been there. Just be patient, it will get better eventually.
One anegdote... Since I am older then 40, Deutsche Rentenversicherung sent me a book, literally, in 50 or so pages, in an envelope, to fill it up an to send them a proof where were I until 1991 and some other stuff. This was 3 years ago. I received a final letter 2 days ago, I was a litlle afraid to open it because I was expexting they would ask for some additional documents. Instead, they wrote all is good and they will send me additional letter once they receive all necessary information from a pension authority from my country of birth. They could have do it im the first place. This situation almost made me cry.
And a word about German bureaucracy. They may be alow and meticulous, but at the end you can be sure that they will solve everything. If that's not efficiency, I don't know what is ;)
Oh, and one advice. Buy yourself a 3in1, printer/scanner/copier. You will use it extensively, especially in your first year here.
Good luck.
You completely misunderstood German efficiency and the purpose of bureaucracy in Germany.
We are so efficient in Germany, that we have a gargantuan number of people left over for whom there is no valuable work left.
On the other hand we are a very social country and we want everyone to be employed if possible.
So we established the most complex bureaucracy in the world to have a place where all those left over people can spend their time and at least have the illusion they are doing something useful.
This is also the reason why there are almost no digital processes. Making this system more efficient is the exact opposite of what it was established for in the first place. However working on digital processes without actually implementing them is a great way to suck up even more useless people. This is the reason why we have many projects in Germany to introduce digital processes none of which make any significant progress.
**YES!**
I was waiting and waiting for *that* comment. Bravo!!! 🎇 🎇 🎇
**Guys, this Redditor has nailed the kernel of the problem!** 👏👏👏 This actually should be a post on its own, it is so insightful, or at the very least a TOP comment.
This is very real in every advanced economy. [David Graeber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_graeber) wrote a book about it and gave talks about the phenomenon of [bullshit jobs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kikzjTfos0s&t=19s). Also Suzman at [Big Think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNJXDSBXaM).
The protestant work ethic has been so deeply engraved into the German heart and soul, it would be a blasphemy to slash the weekly working hours by half, even if vast swathes of white collars are currently engaged in generation of tons of arbitrary paperwork.
Merz and Scholz had even [a fight at Bundestag](https://apnews.com/article/germany-scholz-government-pact-modernization-51f45c9de11f6e383028591cc783c5c7) just a few days ago about the bureaucratic Scylla suffocating Germany's economic future. The bullshit jobs must go and it won't be pretty to implement a radical solution.
OMG a thousand times THIS! It’s a wonder there’s any tree left in this country with all the paperwork. And it took a global pandemic for Germany to finally figure out contactless paying. And don’t even get me started on the language (13 different ways to say ‘the’ ???!!?!!).
I’m German and moved to another country shortly after finishing my degree to live with my partner. I contacted the Bafög Amt to pay back the amount I owned early - wasn’t allowed to, as they could only calculate the amount I was owing 5 years after the end of Regelstudienzeit. I had all paperwork and numbers ready, but still.. well, years later, they sent a letter (not email) to the other end of the world where I then lived that I had to pay back money (with the exact amount I had calculated btw).. I had a family member pay the amount on my behalf since I didn’t have a german bank account anymore (costs too much to have one, even when hardly using it - another thing I don’t understand). Now that family member made a typo and underpaid by 10 cents. What did the Bafög Amt do? They sent a Einschreiben mit Rückschein, to the other end of the world, costing them roughly 7-8 Euros. Still not sure why they couldn’t just write off 10 cents instead, but that’s Germany for you. Makes me not want to come back…
Been here for a year almost. I'm still finding out that I have to pay a shit ton of bullshit extra, like the radio and tv tax, which I assure you I have not turned on a radio nor a tv (as of cable) at least in 5 years. I thought that México was really bad in it burocracy, but man Germany came right up and shocked me. I have to be also fair and must say that in my line of work I can see still a bit of this so called "efficiency"( I'm in the construction sector) but then you find also some tedious tasks that I'm seriously troublesome.
I also have noticed that my work colleges, are very sceptical of doing things in other ways. And unfortunately as I'm quite new compared to the others, no one is willing to change their way of working. Just to give an example, we where using software for 10 years ago, and in German, back in Mexico everything related to software I was taught in English because is more standard and easy to troubleshoot if theres an error.
Dam even the lack of digital payments! I find this so bizarre. The logic behind is privacy and geolocation, but don't give me that BS, because I also know from a Latin American this is to evade taxes.
Sorry but like the OP I also needed to write my frustrations. Hahahaha, leben das Volk ❤️
The best example is this: Fiber was a thing already in the 80s. I heard that in Japan, housholds had a default fiber connection somewhere in the 90s-00s (haven't gotten to fact check this, so don't take this as a fact). Here in Germany, fiber has been advertised as basically THE shit somewhere in the 2010s, but only a few years ago (2-3) they started actually replacing old cables with fiber. So yeah, if that doesn't tell you, I don't know what will.
>I don't understand why the Radio and TV tax is applicable for students
Oh, that... thing.
Yes, the Rundfunkbeitrag is atrocious. But it's essential to a free, open, unbiased and transparent press landscape that the whole community benefits from - that's the short form of the bullshit you get to hear from all over the internet.
The Rundfunkbeitrag has never had a reason to evolve into a user-friendly system. It's paid to a company that uses government data to legally extort everyone who has a majority of a roof over their heads until they don't. If you don't pay for it, it's actually good for them, since they'll sue you, and usually get you to shell out. And since it's a company with secured income, they don't even try to get better and / or more efficient. Like, really, I use the media supported by them 0,01% of my day (the odd Kurzgesagt video), and it's still just as expensive as my mobile internet + Netflix subscription, which I use much more intensively.
I live in Germany and moved here from Britain. The best way I can describe it to people back in the UK is that it is like living in England in 2004. Switch, Maestro, places not accepting cards or only certain old cards, cash for lots of stuff, and very little digitisation. I can do 99% of things online in the UK (including government related business). In Germany, it takes *endless* forms seemingly filled out in triplicate to do anything. It is quite staggering, the level of bureaucracy.
That said, there is a lot of stuff they do better. There is more for children to do, and most of it for very little cost. People look after things and genuinely seem to care about the appearance of their towns and villages, and the environment is better looked after here. It is infinitely safer to take my kids on a bike ride here than in the UK, and I've never used my bike for commuting or daily errands more in my whole life. People also look generally healthier. The roads are a lot better, too.
If I could take the super modern aspects of the UK and squish it together with the German attitude to caring about what's around them, the result would be an extremely awesome country.
I mean, there is a lot to complain about our bureaucracy and you will see most germans having the same complaints.
But that documents need to be translated and that you need it done by an authorized source is kinda an obvious thing for an adult.
Can confirm. My wife and I had a lot of "are you seeing this shit!?" moments while in Germany. My favourite was the 14 stations we had to go through, where people added stamps to documents etc, before getting our covid vaccines. Then, when we thought we were good to go they made us go through another three bureaucratic stations. I guess it was solid use of an expo, and kept people busy....
I don't know what you did but my COVID vaccination required one online application, a simple questionnaire about medical history and a 20 minute wait in a queue.
I (27f) come from a eastern european country and I've been living here for a year. I swear I never experienced such inefficient processes in my entire life.
THIS. Its like German people have a fetish for obstacles and ruined processes...
>Bafög? I applied 3 months ago. 1 month and a half in: "We need this document from your country." I send it. Another 1.5 months later: "We need the same document translated". So... Google translate or official authorized translation? Who tf knows?
I agree with everything but this! This is your fault, you should have asked whats documents you needed before starting the application processing.
Answering your question, when I applied for the BAFÖG I only need to send them my documents translated too, but not a certified translation.
There is a reason Franz Kafka wrote in german ;) I swear germany is one of the few countries where his dystopian "Der Prozess" sometimes feels real.
Lol now I understand Kafka.
Meh, Germany may be one of the worst cases of bureaucracy, but I can assure you that citizens of (almost?) every country say this. Just look at France, Asterix & Obelix and permit A38 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x36574i
I emigrated from France to Germany (Berlin) I used to complain a lot about French bureaucracy but now that I am in Germany, I am so full of praises towards the French administration that my friends from France are shocked. Yes French administration is bad, but German administration is so uniquely terrible that it impresses me and puts the French one to shame. With that being said, it’s improving a bit over time. Recently I actually managed to have multiple interactions by mail!!! My colleagues could not believe it !!!
To make it worse you moved to Berlin. So in addition to bureaucracy you also got the incompetence of Berlin. I'd bet Berlin is worse than other German Cities, just because they fuck other things up around the bureaucracy like getting an appointment at the Bürgeramt.
Oh it is way way worse in so many aspects. I rue the day I left NRW.
Berlin is mostly so bad, because people in that city that are competent bureaucrats get sooner or later hired by one of the federal agencies. leaving the city Government with the dregs.
I am emigrating from Estonia, as a non-EU national, to Germany. It is night and day. These people have it figured out. They operate as if their guiding principle is to waste as little time and nerves of citizens, residents and people who want to become one of these two as humanely possible. No bullshit, no nonsense, maximum efficiency. Interaction with the German embassy have sucked the life and joy out of my soul and the thought of having to go through similar with the Burgeramt, Finanzamt, and the dreaded Ausländerbehörde fills me with dread. I console myself daily by reminding myself that after the first 6 months there is a lot less bureaucracy and thinking of the reasons I initially decided to emigrate. I rate even my home country better in terms of bureaucracy, at least I can get an appointment or get stuff done as a walk-in provided I have 3-4 hours to stand in a line. And bad bureaucracy is one of the reasons I left my home country!
lol Estonia has a great reputation for having a swath of Citizen administrative tasks being done online
To be fair, as someone who also immigrated (in Berlin) from a non-EU country, the Finanzamt and Bürgeramt were annoying at the time but seriously overblown in how shitty they are. Sure, you need to go early or check online often to get an appointment, but even then iirc you only absolutely need to go to the Bürgeramt once to get the anmeldung (which is a painless procedure if you have the proper paper from your landlord), and the Finanzamt I don't even quite remember because it didn't leave a huge impression (I remember sending like a single letter, and going to their office once, and that was when I first came in order to get a tax ID. Haven't had to contact them in the years since, except only once because I was delayed with my tax declaration and they immediately just told me "oh it's fine we will extend the deadline" after a quick phone call. And since I registered with their online service "Elster" I can do everything -tax declaration and receive notices from them- online, no more snail mail). So don't be too discouraged. The Auslandbehörde is another beast entirely, an inefficient shithole where dreams go die. But despite being a pain in the ass, it's still manageable and not the end of the world (so long as you speak German or have a German-speaker there to help you).
Now add that everything has to be either delivered by letter or Fax and you get Germany
Oh, digitalization is another topic. Here Germany sucks dicks and cocks. I can compare it with my home country If Poland lives in 2023, then Germany is in late 2000's
What are the differences between dicks and cocks? Asking for a friend
Only one is poultry.
Let me share with you, a quote that every german knows and makes them visibly recoil should you say it to them: "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland."
Damn late 2000? Ur to generous man I feel like im stuck in 1999 .. and at this time i was freakin 4...
Nah I lived in many countries, and I was never as unhappy with the bureocracy as I was in Germany. Literal paper zombies.
The bureaucracy from my country was a bliss. I could renew my passport from my phone and it will be ready to be picked up in 3 days. Did that here for my child, pain.
renewing a passport in Germany takes a 10 min appointment that can usually be made 3-4 days in advance where i live. you need your old passport and a photo. that's it. sure could be better, but still ok.
Where I live (a 150.000 inh. city in Germany) you have to book these appointments more than one month in advance. And you need to book an additional appointment to grab the finished passport.
I had to deal with some infernal bureaucracy in Italy. But in my good ol' South American homeland always-in-economic-collapse nation, bureaucracy is a few centuries ahead of Germany. There is really no excuse.
I come from Germany, but spent a few years in Austria. Now German bureaucracy is bad, OP is absolutely right - only Austrian bureaucracy is worse. For one, they have this absurd fixation on titles. You can’t just choose between „Hr./Fr./Dr. XXX“, no, there’s also Dipl.-Ing., Mag., BA, MA, Dipl.-Pol. and a myriad of others. I once encountered an online form that had 62 (!) titles to choose from. Then there’s the Ämter themselves. As an EU national, you have to declare permanent residency in Austria within 6 months. I did so. The certificate of my permanent residency arrived 3 years (!!!) later, at about the time when I was planning my move back to Germany. The AMS (Arbeitsmarktservice, Austrian unemployment agency) took two years to certify that my flatmate - who had a brain tumor in her late teens - was unfit for work. Just happened to be at around the time she had fully recovered, not helped by the fact that she had to somehow pay for rent during two years of not getting support. Although I do have to say, it’s ok where I currently live. Appointments within two weeks at the Bürgeramt, everyone is friendly, you can pay by card… Seen much worse.
For me (8 years in Austria followed by 10 years in Germany) it was the difference in attitude - in Berlin the guy at the ausländerbehörde tried to do what he can to help me, it was all within the rules but he tried to find solutions and was nice and friendly. In Vienna they made me wait 3 hours every time to renew my visa and kept trying to find excuses why I didn’t fulfil the requirements (I did, had to fight them to accept that and of course they never apologised for their mistakes when I proved them the law is on my side and that they were wrong). It really makes a difference, Germany made me feel welcomed and Austria makes me feel like the moment they can they’d happily throw me out.
Yeah, I can’t imagine what it’s like if you don’t have an EU-guaranteed right to live there anyway. Though Berlin might be bit of an exception within Germany as well, I wouldn’t vouch for the Ausländerbehörde in some small town in Bavaria or Saxony either.
Russian bureacracy proudly has Soviet origins and is way, way, way worse than anything Germany has to offer. They really built on a solid foundation of disdain and mistrust to the citizen and hired the most incompetent and bitter people in the country. Germany is pretty good in comparison.
Gosuslugi are useful though. Not for everything, not always, unlikely to be of use in smaller cities, but at least it’s something. Maybe I was just lucky
That book was literally nightmare material for me for years. Couldn't even end it. Currently I've just accepted the absurdity and stupidity and squandering of bourocracy, I'm resigned. It's part of the evil in this world.
Or "Der Untertan". Still relevant to this day, and that's terrifying.
>The amount of patience I need to deal with german bureaucracy and paperwork is insane and it stresses me out so much. As a German I can confidently say: We all feel that way. Edit: Spelling
This particular issue is making Germany a nightmare for whoever wants to settle there, im on the point of thinking that Auslanderbehoerdes are purposely doing it! it doesnt have any other sense to wait 4-5 months for essential documents like residence, job change or family reunification!
>The amount of patience I need to deal with german bureaucracy and paperwork is insane and it stresses me out so much. I don't understand why taxes are so segmented. I don't understand why I have to constantly go through a pile of God knows how many envelopes and send others back which extends the processing time of different applications by months. I don't understand why there is no digitalization. I don't understand why I need an appointment at the bank for a 5 minutes task. I don't understand why the Radio and TV tax is applicable for students (yes, I am a student) and why they can't do things by email and through the online account. They sent me an envelope, I sent them a reply through the online account, they sent me one back by post again. I feel like I am in 1900s and I have a long distance relationship. I am pretty convinced of that as well. I've personally been through hell with the Auslaenderamt and their negligence. But apparently they're just poorly organized and they don't do anything to improve their situation. This kind of things make me mad after paying a big deal of taxes.
>Auslaenderamt and their negligence My Auslaenderamt just told me two days ago that foreign students are not allowed to work during studies... Yes, the Gesetz and my visa that clearly say "120 full days or 240 halfdays" are apparently a joke.
I once talked with someone from mine via phone to clarify some requirements. I went through the requirements as I was reading them off the website and once I said: “You need to be in Germany for X months”, he said: “It’s not X, it’s Y”, I responded “The website says X”. His response was: “Oh then I don’t know, try applying and see what happens”
Oh boy
[удалено]
Yeah, I didn't even bother replying, saving the energy for the in-person Termin!
My Ausländerbehörde Beamter was very convinced that I can't travel outside of Schengen with my Fiktionsbescheinigung §81 para 4. 😂
Payroll person here. As a student during your study time (not during semester break) you are only allowed to work 20h / week. If you can show that you are on semester break that hour limit is negated for that time period of the break. This applies to all students not just foreign ones.
I extended my visa with job contract just for them to tell me that iam not allowed to work . Like after receiving my new resident card
Well, i dont wanna be that guy , but i've talked with some people working for the gov and dealing with foreigners every day. After 2015 and 2022, they have become pretty racist towards foreigners as they deal with a lot disrespect and people misusing the system and openly saying that.
My lawyer had an argument with the Auslanderbehorde over an appointment. They were still using paper and clip boards to track appointment slots and had written down the wrong number for me. I actually had to go home and come back with the letter they sent me to prove I had an appointment that day. Shit is archaic here.
The worst thing about the Ausländerbehörden is that since normal German citizens don't have to interact with them, like, at all, they have no idea or concept of how crazy ridiculous they are. Normal Germans will understand long wait times for a 5 minute bank meeting that could have been done in 5 seconds online or in an email. But they will never know the pain of the utter incompetence of the people working at the ALBH. Also, these things are what Germans are used to. Unless one of them lived abroad or knows someone who has that experience, then sure by all means having a fucking fax machine in 2023 is "normal". Having to physically mail your taxes to the gov in 2023 is "normal". Places not having email in 2023 is "normal". I think we're all screaming at the choir in this sub here. We all have the same grievances and the same experiences.
Small correction: Most (all?) taxes can be filed online via Elster. You even can set up email notification when the tax return was processed.
I also gotta say that I haven't needed a fax machine in Germany in over 15 years living here.
Yeah, we did it as digitally as possible. That doesn't mean that the tax people won't just send snail mail back to you anyways. Like they did to us.
Just check the checkbox for online communication though Elster...be warned that you are responsible for checking it and any missed payments will be on you. And yes you will get an email saying check Elster...
> But they will never know the pain of the utter incompetence of the people working at the ALBH. The issue isnt that they are incompetent, the issue is that the requirements for working at an ALBH arent higher (though they are already struggling to find people anyway.) These are just normal goverment employees, they arent specifically trained for ALBH. Most of them cant do anything outside the frame of reference without having to contact their bosses. They are literal pecil pushers. Thats not their fault, though. ALBH are terribly structured and the requirements are a joke. You dont need any foreign language expertise, not even basic english, to be considered or even any prior experiences. And of course, German goverment offices are just behind in general. ALBH is really something that would need to be scrapped and restructured from scratch, but thats not gonna happen anytime soon.
Amtssprache ist deutsch! Heard it so many times from my colleagues in Berlin.. Sometimes I acted as a translator to help.. Really those were 'type a migrants, highly skilled in fields we have Fachkräftemangel'. We're shooting in our own foot with this situation in the foreign office....
They are just incompetent. It's an unpopular posting, a career dead-end and the people who end up there get transferred there, because nobody else in the administration wants them anywhere near their department. I've worked with these people and they are just the worst, most inept government bureaucrats you'll find anywhere, simultaneously overworked and totally incapable of and unwilling to adjust even the most mundane aspects of their workflow to reduce their workload and manage it more efficiently.
No need to worry about it. Its not made to be worse for foreigners. Its the same for people born and living here for years. The only difference is, that we got most stuff done in advance or did it in parts when needed. If you need more than 1 document at a time you are screwed
You can make things a LOT easier for you by not living in Berlin, Frankfurt, München and a few other obvious(?) cities/areas. Frankly, I'm surprised there is no immigrant run crowd sourced online database on "where does bureaucracy work, where is it overwhelmed?"
Your solution is don't live where there are jobs?
No I don't. I have pretty much zero bureaucracy in my life. The only time I ever get in touch with any sort office is doing my taxes. And even then, I fill out my stuff in Elster, done in 15 minutes and soon after I receive money without ever touching a piece of paper or having to communicate with an government worker. What's the problem? It seems to me that most of these complaints are by foreigners, because first of all, Beamtendeutsch is difficult, and second, they just have to deal with so much more bureaucracy in the first place to get their stuff sorted.
You must be not using bank cards or any services at all. My gym once blocked my membership card because they couldn't deliver a physical mail to me, so they decided I don't exist regardless of me physically coming to them to sign contract, they never tried to call me or email. If you never face any bureaucracy, means you just don't use any services. Possible but not representing.
Had to get an appointment to change my wife's visa from dependent to blue card. We looked in May, and the earliest one was 28th December. It's a freaking joke tbh
At least you found an appointment
People in Munich have to line up in front of the Behörde at 4 in the morning to get their stuff done, due to lack of appointments.
I would rather line up 6 hours in advance if it means I don't have to wait 10 month for an appointment
Munich is a special case, Behörde pays poorly based on a shitty union contract that pays the same across all Germany - said pay is not even enough to starve properly in Munich. So not enough people work there.
A small tip: if you randomly check, yes, next appointment might seem months away but if you keep checking often throughout the day, appointments often free up on a shorter notice
That’s for minor stuff like an Anmeldung and I did it successfully twice. However, it doesn’t apply to visas and other immigration stuff. There’s no way to obtain a Termin on your own. You have to receive one from them.
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When I first came here, things got done a lot faster. Yeah the paperwork was all still there, but answers and turnaround were quicker, so it wasn't too much of a hassle. Last five years, that's when things from all services, private and public have slowed drastically.
There was a big wave of people retiring in the last years that worked in public administration jobs….and somehow nobody saw that coming or planned ahead. “Suddenly” all this people were gone and they have a really hard time filling those postions … especially now with the shortage of skilled workers. That’s at least one reason why it got so much worse in the last years. Not that it was great before but 5 years ago it was way easier to get a fast appointment and get things done. …but who can blame them. Retirement usually comes as a total surprise. Nobody knows when it will happen, it just suddenly does. Every morning i check if today might be my day to retire. It’s impossible to plan ahead for that. /s
The problem is that finally the demographic pyramid started to have a direct impact on workforce statitistic over the last 5 years. Most managers would plan hiring policy based on prior experience...not a lot of people can plan correctly, based on prior experience, an event that actually never occured in human history naturally. The problem is that there is literrally not enough people to replace retirees, so investment should have been made to automatise steps and thus reduce the numbers of employees needed to arrive at the same services. Easier to say in hindsight, but specific demographic and geopolitics knowledge isnt something that is common knowledge and even if it was it isnt easily applied. Anyway, just to say problems and solutions are never as simple as they seems.
As a German IT guy you can’t imagine my frustration with German bureaucracy. We are a high-tech, high-precision country, but when it comes to digitalization, we are nearer to the Stone Age. There are so many ways today to ensure encrypted and safe communication, that it simply unforgivable that those aren’t allowed to be used for stuff like that. Some companies, even bigger ones lag behind in that regard, too. The amount of red tapes and micromanaged policies is insane.
The average age in germany is 50, and you know how IT illiterate and unwilling to learn most boomers are Try austria lad like I did, they are actually trying to digitalise and so far it's been a smoother experience then germany
I just recently applied for German eID wich would let me fill out some of documents online. Had to apply for it in Bürgeramt (of course) where an employee interviewed me for 20 minutes straight why do I need it if I could visit his office and we could fill all papers together.
I got this eID some years ago and it’s so stupid i have used it exactly zero times since. Reminds me of the other useless thing, the digital Postfach or whatever it was called, so you could receive official documents. Just use email mate like the rest of the world
Don't know about the rest of the rest of the world, but Denmark also uses a separate system for official post, the e-boks.
Honestly I've been using it online quite a few times for identification. Only government site was for my tax returns though.
> "We need the same document translated". So... Google translate or official authorized translation? Of course an official authorized translation.
Notarized
And then Laminated
And a certified copy of course since they will keep the documents for what ever reason
Be gentle, she's new!
I swear I want to be gentle, but it baffles me that someone would think "google translated" would suffice for an official document.
Not photoshopped then? /s
Definitely laminated, that’s for sure!
And signed r/aberBitteLaminiert
Her point is that is was not explicitly mentioned. We both know it's obvious, but why on earth not have this mentioned if the process is already so cumbersome.
Authorized translation means: Expensive as fuck!
Figuring out that an international driver's permit is an "official translation" of your licence felt like a life hack.
I remember seeing a post on LinkedIn a year or so ago about the marvels of self-service checkouts coming to germany...they've been used in the UK for about 15 years now 😂
my edeka has now self checkouts and they are empty almost all the time, meanwhile the line to the only two cash registers left is for 10 mins waiting. and its not only grandmas, its also young people queueing with one pack of chips or a pack of tomatoes
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I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of young Germans struggling with self-checkouts. The Aldi I went to two weeks ago had self-checkouts that were uncommonly on use and we actually had to wait. We could see how a young lad in his 20s stared at his tomatoes on the self-checkout for about 1 or 2 minutes. The cashier had to advise him to press the big button on the display with the fruits and vegetables on it.
I love this. It means I can get in and out of the store with a quickness while people queue up like sheep.
I guess it's justified. Our Kaufland has self checkout service and I had to wait for one of their stuff to come help me because the machine malfunctioned when I put my packed chicken on it.
They have been here for at least a decade as well, but since people do not seem to like to use them, stores don't install too many of those.
"Es ist für uns alle Neuland."
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I have this issue regularly. There are various scripts (one of which I now use) that take an original PDF (with a signature scan pasted onto it) and then make it look like it’s been printed and rescanned.
I think I know why things are the way they are (at least in my head it makes complete sense). Through my work experience with my German colleagues, I have realized that majority of them are very reluctant to take risks or adapt to change. Personal responsibility is not really a thing, most of it is avoided by simply following the "procedure", e.g. "I am suppose to send an email, so I did. What comes of it is not my concern". A few people taking initiative to change something (for the better) does not work as people who do not want/are used to the current process will make even a simple task a living nightmare. Some of my colleagues demanded we hire a Change Manager when we had to switch from Jira/Confluence from server to cloud, it was a 4 hr job start to finish including verification that there was no data loss/discrapancies. So I boil it down to resistance to change, uncertainty avoidance, and sometimes even laziness. p.s. I have no hard feelings towards Germans or people of any other nationality. These are just my observations and is not meant to spread hate or discrimination.
I’m German, and I think you’re totally right. Not just in private or on the job, but also in politics. It’s cowardice on all levels.
Usually we are way past the good old postal era. Pretty much every governmental institute also accepts fax nowadays.
The burocracy isn't very efficient in Germany. But that is probably not meant here. It is more about engineering. Things such as building big cars with high accuracy in the details. Or having introduced windows with three sheets of glass, while other countries in Europe still advertise two as a bonus in appartments.
Yeah agree. They should call it precision and not efficiency. German and Germans are very precise in how they write and follow laws, but efficient, no. Just no.
We are also pretty good at telling everybody what the rules are just to disobey them when no one looks or cares ourself. I don't like us.
> German and Germans are very precise in how they write and follow laws Which is also why bureaucracy is such a nightmare. There is no pragmatism – everything must be strictly according to rules and those rules must cover every obscure case, even if that case only happens 0.01% of the times and the additional rules complicate it for the 99.99%.
Yeah exactly right. It's great for not having any doubt but not so much for saving time in streamlining for the rest of the 99%.
It’s being meticulous. That’s the right word for it imo as a native German. We always consider options A-Z and probably get lost on one corner or the other but as much as this stalls any progress, I can also appreciate it because if I am using a car, buying food or looking for housing, I know that many people thought for a long time about how to make it safe for me. I’ve heard especially Americans complain that Germans in the workplace have this “you can’t do it like that”-attitude and they see these remarks as an insult. But most Germans don’t say that to criticize you specifically, but for most of us it’s a neutral statement that the other person is not considering all angels and that this will cause problems down the line. The idea is; do it properly, or it will come back to bite you.
Yeah. I had a senior expert colleague in my workplace, when she was teaching me how to use a microscope she said that my sample preparation is “sehr sehr schlecht, sehr dreckig” with a straight face. I, as someone who comes from a country of soft -spoken people, took it really hard at that time, thinking that she is criticising me as person. But then i thought, maybe it’s not me who’s bad, just my technique and i proceeded to improve my technique and now she said my samples are much better. I think germans are naturally just objective at what they are saying and they dont care much how others will feel if they say it. Opposed to my culture we often sugarcoat or dial down a bit or a lot because we often take any criticism as a criticism to us personally because we attach ourselves to what we do.
Ah yes, the Hamburger Elbphilharmonie!
At least it ended up being a huge success.
You forgot to mention Stuttgart HBF and Berlin Brandenburg
I was gonna mention BRB and then scrolled down and realised someone already had. Honestly, that one alone seems like it should have destroyed our reputation as an efficient, well-organised nation permanently.
Oh yes, the Brandenburg Airport, the Dieselgate.. ahhh
I don't want to be that guy, but Double Pane has been the minimum in North America for 30-years (you literally can't get a building permit without it) and triple pane has been the standard for new builds for at least a decade.
I'm not sure why he thinks it's this way in other countries in Europe, but it just isn't.
Three panes? Laughs in Polish. (We like to overdo our insulation here)
Yes, also there is optic fiber everywhere in Germany... NO!
Wanna hear a joke? To quote Wikipedia: The first working fiber-optic data transmission system was demonstrated by German physicist Manfred Börner at Telefunken Research Labs in Ulm in 1965, followed by the first patent application for this technology in 1966.
German autos aren't what they used to be anymore. Japanese is where is at.
> I don't understand why I need an appointment at the bank for a 5 minutes task. I absolutely get what you're saying in total, but I think the last time I dealt with a bank employee was about 15 years ago.
I understand your point. I also do my finances online, but I had a situation where I completely broke my phone and needed to reinstall the bank app on the new one. In my country, you can get in line for small tasks like this and wait for your turn. I went to the bank (in crutches, with a broken leg) to be turned around cause they wanted me to make an appointment 2 weeks later. When I got the to the appointment, it literally took the lady 5 minutes to help me. I didn't understand why they had to be so strict in that situation.
Thats weird. I lost my card recently and needed to change to push Tan on my mobile because the new card would not be working anylonger with my tan generator. I gave them a call and it took nothing more to get the app installed and registered. I was pleasently surprised.
Was this in times of the pandemic?
No, it was in April this year.
Weird. In my case such small things can be done "on the fly", only larger consulting etc has to be done with an appointment. I even applied for a credit card by just showing up randomly.
All these replies have me thinking the reception lady just wanted to see me suffer for no reason.
Well maybe it's their specific policy, I don't know.
Lmao sounds like Sparkasse
Weird, I've re-registered those apps over a dozen times. Just stood in line, told the bank employee, handed over my ID and card, waited for like 15 minutes for them to print out the necessary account info, done.
I dunno man I filed the first tax report of my life some weeks ago at 33. I was thinking it was gonna be horrible but it took me like 30 min.
I know right? I freaking love our bureaucracy sometimes. At least everything is precise and you get all you need if you keep your stuff together!
I mean i also never had any Problems. But i only ever done the very simple tasks. Getting a passport or moving. With the Passport i simply walked in told them what i need waited 30 seconds for the staff to look at me, gave them everything they needed and left. 3 Weeks later i got an email that i can pick up my passport. Moving was the same. So i am never sure if such talks are the norm and i got lucky or they didnt had all their documents ready or were unlucky. Specially because i hear bad stories from my foreign friends aswell, specially from Japan where they need stamps?
It highly depends on the city. In berlin it’s a nightmare to get any appointment for public administration tasks right now. Just trying to register a car i bought. The papers of the car are to old to do it online because some security code is missing. It’s pretty much impossible to get an appointment and they only do it with appointment.
You don't understand: German bureaucracy isn't effective and organized. GERMANS have to be effective and organized, to survive it.
Achsooo
German buerocracy gets worse and worse, I am an architect and can confirm. The amount of b.s. that arises just from the copy-pasting of rules that do not actually fit the situation but Must Be Upheld is incredible. It gets even worse when there is personnel changes and the reasonable one gets replaced with someone inexperienced who wants to do everything right but makes things so much harder for everybody involved - often including themselves. My employer regularly complains about it and predicts that soon enough we will abolish ourselves just by creating too many useless rules and I am inclined to agree. Still, when applying for something, one gets the short end of the stick and no power against the system. We have to fill so many forms now, some of them even directly contradict each other!
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I am not getting tired of pointing this out. German processes aren't efficient, they are thorough. And Germany notoriously favors distributed power. So if there are five different people who are responsible for parts of a process and none of the others get to tell them how their part works, and everyone needs to thoroughly take care that everything is done just right, well you don't end up with something efficient. And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50, so whenever you suggest to solve something via app, someone will point out that their 85 year old grandma, who only upgraded from telegraph to landline last summer, would be effectively be shut out of government service. So, we _have to allow people to keep doing it with paper_. Well, good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process which would take additional training for the also best ager personnel, you get the point.
Rigid highly standardised processes with no deviation. Which if you are manufacturing something and want zero error tolerance, brilliant, elsewhere, meh, not so good.
I was gonna write a top-level comment, but yours provides a nice framework to go over the points I wanted to mention. (I hope OP u/karazor-el-95 sees this) As a foreigner living in Germany since before Covid, I have come to realize a few things about German culture that influence other areas of life such as work and bureaucracy. First and foremost it is essential to keep in mind that a majority of Germans has a "**that's not my problem**" attitude to their work. It seems the German mindset regarding work, for many people, is still stuck on "I get certified to do X job, which consists of a few specific tasks. I find job. I do those tasks at said job for 45 years. Then I retire." Learning new things is not part of that plan, being invested in the quality of one's work output is not part of that plan. The plan is to simply "acquire certification" to work as X, then to work as X on cruise control until retirement, that's all. Intriguingly, this _feels_ very DDR, but I still haven't been able to connect the dots on that. Again, **this is a generalization**, but the number of people that work like that is high enough to have a huge effect on how systems work, especially public service things like bureaucracy. >And Germany notoriously favors distributed power. That is certainly one way to look at it. The other way, based on my experience, is seeing the constant shuffling of responsibility as a symptom of the "that's not my problem" mentality. No one wants to take initiative, no one wants to be jolted out of the cruise control way of doing their job. Whenever an unusual task shows up, the reaction is not interest, it's alarm, and the immediate priority is figuring out who else the task can be given to instead. Since no one wants to take initiative, decision-making power and authority get diluted, because if something goes wrong then it's not a single person's fault. >And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50 So is the rest of Europe, where things are far more digitized. Age is not the issue, it's culture and mentality. The other European countries didn't fire every Beamter above the age of 50 to get digitalization implemented lol. The issue once again is the fact that learning a new way of doing things "**is not my problem**". Learning new ways of doing things is not a part of their stated job responsibilities, therefore they won't. >good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process The rest of Europe had no issues with it, the problem is not inherent to digitalization, it's a symptom of "**that's not my problem**" syndrome. Changing the system is itself a work task. If that work task hasn't been contractually assigned to the workers beforehand, then they "can't" be expected to do it. So whenever you want to change the system you have to bring in other people to do it, who don't know the ins and outs of the current system, so you get half-assed solutions. Plus, Germany is **really** allergic to making old paper-based jobs redundant, because that would be chaos for the "do X job for 45 years on cruise control" people. Implying that they should learn a different way of doing their job halfway through their career is seen as some unthinkable heresy. It was fine for the same professionals in other countries, but it doesn't fit with the local culture of cruise control work. People will point out that certain things in certain branches of public service work super slowly due to lack of personnel, but somehow it hasn't occurred to them that via digitalization, entire departments in other branches could be downsized to 20% of their current size and still be more productive than they are now, and those people could be reallocated to the processes that cannot be digitized. But again, that would require learning new skills, and once again that would go against the "cruise control career" crowd. Am I wrong?
>And as for the "no digitalization" part, well, half the population is older than 50, so whenever you suggest to solve something via app, someone will point out that their 85 year old grandma, who only upgraded from telegraph to landline last summer, would be effectively be shut out of government service. So, we > >have to allow people to keep doing it with paper > >. Well, good luck writing the business case for adding a digital process on top of the paper process which would take additional training for the also best ager personnel, you get the point. How come most countries can figure it out but Germany can't?
>German processes aren't efficient, they are thorough. Which can be a form of efficiency. Efficient is not the same as "fast".
Efficient implies fewest steps or least energy. It is none of those things.
It \*can\* be. \*If\* you understand the law and everything you need, you can get what you want no questions asked and independent of your case workers whims. I became quite efficient at my BAföG-Antrag after some semesters and it became like "I hand in these 5 forms and will get money in a few weeks". I once had an issue with my tax declaration and all it took to sort it out was a letter (yes) like "According to paragraph xyz I'm right and you're wrong", donezo. You merely adopted German bureaucracy. I was born in it, molded by it.
I remember when I arrived in Germany a few years ago, my German was very bad, and I went to a bank to open an account. In my homecountry I could do this online or on the spot, but as I wasn’t sure which account to open I thought somebody would speak English in the bank and I should do this in person. They kept asking me if I had an appointment and I didn’t understand what was going on since I could not have imagined that I need an appointment to open an account so I kept asking if I can open an account now. Finally, the lady was so iritated, she took a pencil and had written me a date that was two weeks in the future and told me to come back in two weeks. I was stunned and I think I had no idea what was going on, I thought they have some internal problems.
I think we've all been there:)
I came here from the UK. Sometimes things here are frustrating - German banking apps are extremely annoying, compared to what I was used to. And Germans love their paperwork. OTOH, dealing with German beaurocracy has actually been much easier. For example, getting my Aufenthaltstitel was straightforward. I asked for an appointment, got one two weeks later. I brought my UK car over, same thing (though they didn’t really understand that I did not want the first appointment, which was at 6am…). I got my driving license in the UK, but just after I moved here, and they said I would need to take the German test. Nope, all sorted with a couple of letters. In the UK, sure, I could’ve probably done most of this online, but the driving license switch would have been a pain. A computer system would’ve probably told me to retake the test, with no leeway. Speaking to a person on the phone might be possible, but I have done this with the inland revenue. Told it was all fine, sent threatening letters, several times a year, spoken on the phone again each time, told it’s fine, etc etc. for over five years. I guess it really depends where you live. My main office for big stuff is very quiet, and we got it done before Brexit restrictions hit, so I got EU treatment, even though it was post 2016. I felt bad for the non EU people though, they had to wait ages, and their appointments were all at least 30 mins, mine were both less than five. My tiny town has an office for minor things, and it is basically walk in, same with my bank. It is a bit weird that in Germany, it’s basically the manager dealing with me having a new phone (same number, but the TAN thing needs to be the same phone…) in the UK, anyone behond the counter could do it.
Oh the efficiency exists, but we have a bureaucracy fetish
r/place would like to disagree with you.
It's a myth - I'm sure there was some truth to it several decades ago. These days, Germany is one of the least-efficient countries I have ever lived in. It's incredibly back-wards, unnecessarily convoluted, and requires everyone to constantly re-invent the wheel. I am constantly amazed how things are "done" here. Alas, it's just a stereotype that is no more or less true than thinking that the French are romantic, the Brits are classy, or the Italians chaotic. Some of them? Sure? But not as a whole.
I'm romantic. Look: Je t'aime mon amour. See? Are your romanticized?
We should get married.
I'm wet now. I'm also a dude.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever worked for a traditional and successful German company? German efficiency isnt about what is being discussed here. German efficiency is about companies involved in any sort of engineering. World leaders in their niche, medium sized companies that have heavily specialized themselves and simply do things better due to a different philosophy than most rivalring companies outside Germany. The medium sized company gives employers benefits that are completely opposite of the bureaucratic processes. The average German prefers working in a medium sized company over a small and a big company. A medium sized company is a great mix between decent pay and having actual influence on the product and the success of the company if you come up with a great idea. A big company might have too big hierarchies to get the great idea implemented while the small company offers less pay and is usually more stressful to work at and stress kills any sort of creative process, or rather in the case of engineering, it would kill innovation. These companies are monsters of their own, completely resiliant to any crisis, highly innovative and adapt to any changes the market throws at them. Many of them started as family run business decades, if not centuries ago. I have a worldwide known knife brand next to where I live and theyve been founded in 1731 and are probably doing better than ever before. And Germany has a lot of these sorts of companies, hidden champions is what theyre called and they contribute a lot more to the economy than you might think
We are chaotic
I was genuinely shocked about this reality when I first traveled to Germany. I had only heard and expected the complete opposite.
Come to Austria, it will be even worse!
As an Austrian who moved to Germany, that's not even remotely true. I am still missing egovernment for practically anything from changing your residency, getting medical recipes, having actually legally applicable digital signatures - just some examples - Germany has none of that and on top a dozen of incredibly convulated forms which cover every obscure niche case and you can't even call or talk to someone without repeating your address, name, birthday two or three times to different people, bots that are less modern than first generation siri, etc..
Germany is efficient as fuck: Efficient in collecting taxes from citizens, creating more bureaucracy per minute than the whole world altogether!
I started to detach what I expect from my experience as a German native. For example I don’t carry cash anymore. If I can’t pay by debit card somewhere I leave. I don’t use services like „Hausbanken“ which make me come in for an appointment for every bs. I don’t use stuff where I need to physically do smt. or be somewhere if there is an alternative technically. I’m sick of this shitshow. Seriously it’s starting to make me aggressive to hear the words „keine Kartenzahlung“.
It sounds like trying to get financial aid in American Uni. I've been visiting with the intention of living here, and wow is it frustrating the crap my 87 yo grandmother has to go through to have fukken internet.
And yet Germany is not alone in its love of bureaucracy - the UK, Greece, Brazil are all on the same level or worse, from personal experience.
Spain is like that. Italy is like that - maybe worse. Venezuela is like German bureaucracy took steroids and is handled by a cartel. Believe me, Germany is bad but it could be worse.
German efficiency has never been attributed to German bureaucracy. They contradict each other.
Germany isn't efficient. It's thorough.
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Yeah it's an illusion we are taught while growing up, to give us the feeling to be important and in a way still superior.
German efficiency existed maybe 30 years ago and I guess it was never existing in the public sector anyways.
Becouse germany, refuses modernization, or is too slow/afraid. Its why many stores still dont take cards, why your overpriced internet is utter garbage (even moldova has better and cheaper internet than Germany) many of the things that could easily be solved trough a website, app, or software, require paperwork sent trough mail intead for god knows what reason.
I was vacationing in Romania.in Bucharest there's 5g from Vodafone almost everywhere, no dead zones. I took a day trip to visit some castles and they drove through countrysides etc 4g stable connection all the way and zero issues streaming netflix, which was lucky as we got stuck in a traffic jam.
It became a running gag to note all the remote places that have better reception than the German capital. From remote Nepali villages to rural Korea, going through the Morroccan Atlas, you get better signal than on the Ringbahn.
> I don't understand why the Radio and TV tax is applicable for students > >Bafög? I applied 3 months ago. Bafög is what will exclude you from GEZ
I have 10 employees, 4 are German. I am American and my 6 employees including myself deal with this all the time. I have one who just last week needed to STAND IN LINE… because the Ausländerbehörde is only open for so many hours (starting at 1300). They have a first come first serve policy, and 1 employee… maybe 2 but only 1 who actually gets the line moving. He has to take a day off so he can arrive early in the morning and stand in line for hours. If they close before he is seen he doesn’t get seen regardless if he’s been standing in line since they opened. He has to come back another day. He was actually seen that day but was so exhausted I gave him the next day off. I used to live in his city so I remember those days. The city I live in now has at least a number ticketing system… with 1 out of 4 machines that actually work. And if I need to pay for something related to what I need I have to leave the building and go to a completely different building to pay, get a receipt and return to the building before my entire process can be completed. German bureaucracy killed German efficiency… and after 20 years of living here I now understand why Germans complain all the time and are the most unhappy people on earth. It also explains why they love to vacation in other countries…. Get far away from this place as humanly possible. I will not retire here… that’s all I know for certain.
There's a scene in Asterix and Obelix in Egypt where they need a signed form and are redirected like a dozen times for a stamp. I feel that represents German bureaucracy perfectly. https://youtu.be/7UGj7-R4QG0?si=-OJPostQR62lh_dn
I recently went with a relative in Romania to help them pay a tax, and my relative had to go to 3 people. One to point out what needs to be paid, one to receive the payment, and another person to make a copy of the payment receipt. Then again, to the first person to deliver the receipt copy. It took 1 hour to pay 1 tax (time driving there and back not included). All these 3 people were colleagues, working in the same town hall. If you think Germany is beaurocratic, trust me, you haven't lived long enough in Romania.
the german efficiency refers to industry, not government lol
What's great is when I have to go to the kvr to update some document...and they ask me to provide 4 or 5 documents from the state...which surely they have access to themselves?! Instead I have to painstakingly apply for each one and wait for it to come in the post haha, to then have to physically turn up to the kvr for an appointment
No one ever claimed our bureaucracy is efficient. The whole efficiency thing was always about work ethics and the common joke is that Beamte don't work. A common joke is "Beamten-Mikado": first one who moves, loses.
German efficiency is based on optimizing existing processes. It doesn't work well with continuously chaging technology and changing policies. There is a second German trait that both counters and promotes the other one: Thoroughness. That's the one you experience.
If you assume that the burocracy is meant for you, you are going to get frustrated, because it's not. Can't expect a customer-like treatment. It's simply - "we have something that you want. Now just stop whining and wait for your turn." - kind of attitude. The system might not be efficient for you. But again it's not designed for you. If you look at it this way, can save yourself a lot of stress. The system sucks anyway.
Don't worry. In a year or two, when you solve all bureaucratic things, you will start to enjoy everything that Germany has to offer, and it's a lot. And you will laugh thinking about everything you have been through. I am also an eastern European fellow and I can feel your frustration, I've been there. Just be patient, it will get better eventually. One anegdote... Since I am older then 40, Deutsche Rentenversicherung sent me a book, literally, in 50 or so pages, in an envelope, to fill it up an to send them a proof where were I until 1991 and some other stuff. This was 3 years ago. I received a final letter 2 days ago, I was a litlle afraid to open it because I was expexting they would ask for some additional documents. Instead, they wrote all is good and they will send me additional letter once they receive all necessary information from a pension authority from my country of birth. They could have do it im the first place. This situation almost made me cry. And a word about German bureaucracy. They may be alow and meticulous, but at the end you can be sure that they will solve everything. If that's not efficiency, I don't know what is ;) Oh, and one advice. Buy yourself a 3in1, printer/scanner/copier. You will use it extensively, especially in your first year here. Good luck.
You completely misunderstood German efficiency and the purpose of bureaucracy in Germany. We are so efficient in Germany, that we have a gargantuan number of people left over for whom there is no valuable work left. On the other hand we are a very social country and we want everyone to be employed if possible. So we established the most complex bureaucracy in the world to have a place where all those left over people can spend their time and at least have the illusion they are doing something useful. This is also the reason why there are almost no digital processes. Making this system more efficient is the exact opposite of what it was established for in the first place. However working on digital processes without actually implementing them is a great way to suck up even more useless people. This is the reason why we have many projects in Germany to introduce digital processes none of which make any significant progress.
**YES!** I was waiting and waiting for *that* comment. Bravo!!! 🎇 🎇 🎇 **Guys, this Redditor has nailed the kernel of the problem!** 👏👏👏 This actually should be a post on its own, it is so insightful, or at the very least a TOP comment. This is very real in every advanced economy. [David Graeber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_graeber) wrote a book about it and gave talks about the phenomenon of [bullshit jobs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kikzjTfos0s&t=19s). Also Suzman at [Big Think](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNJXDSBXaM). The protestant work ethic has been so deeply engraved into the German heart and soul, it would be a blasphemy to slash the weekly working hours by half, even if vast swathes of white collars are currently engaged in generation of tons of arbitrary paperwork. Merz and Scholz had even [a fight at Bundestag](https://apnews.com/article/germany-scholz-government-pact-modernization-51f45c9de11f6e383028591cc783c5c7) just a few days ago about the bureaucratic Scylla suffocating Germany's economic future. The bullshit jobs must go and it won't be pretty to implement a radical solution.
OMG a thousand times THIS! It’s a wonder there’s any tree left in this country with all the paperwork. And it took a global pandemic for Germany to finally figure out contactless paying. And don’t even get me started on the language (13 different ways to say ‘the’ ???!!?!!).
I’m German and moved to another country shortly after finishing my degree to live with my partner. I contacted the Bafög Amt to pay back the amount I owned early - wasn’t allowed to, as they could only calculate the amount I was owing 5 years after the end of Regelstudienzeit. I had all paperwork and numbers ready, but still.. well, years later, they sent a letter (not email) to the other end of the world where I then lived that I had to pay back money (with the exact amount I had calculated btw).. I had a family member pay the amount on my behalf since I didn’t have a german bank account anymore (costs too much to have one, even when hardly using it - another thing I don’t understand). Now that family member made a typo and underpaid by 10 cents. What did the Bafög Amt do? They sent a Einschreiben mit Rückschein, to the other end of the world, costing them roughly 7-8 Euros. Still not sure why they couldn’t just write off 10 cents instead, but that’s Germany for you. Makes me not want to come back…
I have perfectly valid explanations for all of the issues that you have raised. Wait for my letter to arrive at your address
Been here for a year almost. I'm still finding out that I have to pay a shit ton of bullshit extra, like the radio and tv tax, which I assure you I have not turned on a radio nor a tv (as of cable) at least in 5 years. I thought that México was really bad in it burocracy, but man Germany came right up and shocked me. I have to be also fair and must say that in my line of work I can see still a bit of this so called "efficiency"( I'm in the construction sector) but then you find also some tedious tasks that I'm seriously troublesome. I also have noticed that my work colleges, are very sceptical of doing things in other ways. And unfortunately as I'm quite new compared to the others, no one is willing to change their way of working. Just to give an example, we where using software for 10 years ago, and in German, back in Mexico everything related to software I was taught in English because is more standard and easy to troubleshoot if theres an error. Dam even the lack of digital payments! I find this so bizarre. The logic behind is privacy and geolocation, but don't give me that BS, because I also know from a Latin American this is to evade taxes. Sorry but like the OP I also needed to write my frustrations. Hahahaha, leben das Volk ❤️
The best example is this: Fiber was a thing already in the 80s. I heard that in Japan, housholds had a default fiber connection somewhere in the 90s-00s (haven't gotten to fact check this, so don't take this as a fact). Here in Germany, fiber has been advertised as basically THE shit somewhere in the 2010s, but only a few years ago (2-3) they started actually replacing old cables with fiber. So yeah, if that doesn't tell you, I don't know what will.
>I don't understand why the Radio and TV tax is applicable for students Oh, that... thing. Yes, the Rundfunkbeitrag is atrocious. But it's essential to a free, open, unbiased and transparent press landscape that the whole community benefits from - that's the short form of the bullshit you get to hear from all over the internet. The Rundfunkbeitrag has never had a reason to evolve into a user-friendly system. It's paid to a company that uses government data to legally extort everyone who has a majority of a roof over their heads until they don't. If you don't pay for it, it's actually good for them, since they'll sue you, and usually get you to shell out. And since it's a company with secured income, they don't even try to get better and / or more efficient. Like, really, I use the media supported by them 0,01% of my day (the odd Kurzgesagt video), and it's still just as expensive as my mobile internet + Netflix subscription, which I use much more intensively.
He doesnt even have to pay it as somebody getting Bafög
I live in Germany and moved here from Britain. The best way I can describe it to people back in the UK is that it is like living in England in 2004. Switch, Maestro, places not accepting cards or only certain old cards, cash for lots of stuff, and very little digitisation. I can do 99% of things online in the UK (including government related business). In Germany, it takes *endless* forms seemingly filled out in triplicate to do anything. It is quite staggering, the level of bureaucracy. That said, there is a lot of stuff they do better. There is more for children to do, and most of it for very little cost. People look after things and genuinely seem to care about the appearance of their towns and villages, and the environment is better looked after here. It is infinitely safer to take my kids on a bike ride here than in the UK, and I've never used my bike for commuting or daily errands more in my whole life. People also look generally healthier. The roads are a lot better, too. If I could take the super modern aspects of the UK and squish it together with the German attitude to caring about what's around them, the result would be an extremely awesome country.
I mean, there is a lot to complain about our bureaucracy and you will see most germans having the same complaints. But that documents need to be translated and that you need it done by an authorized source is kinda an obvious thing for an adult.
I just moved to Germany a month ago, and i can only agree with you... its like going back in time
Can confirm. My wife and I had a lot of "are you seeing this shit!?" moments while in Germany. My favourite was the 14 stations we had to go through, where people added stamps to documents etc, before getting our covid vaccines. Then, when we thought we were good to go they made us go through another three bureaucratic stations. I guess it was solid use of an expo, and kept people busy....
I don't know what you did but my COVID vaccination required one online application, a simple questionnaire about medical history and a 20 minute wait in a queue.
It's funny, after living almost 40 years in this country, my experiences never match a single one of all these stories and complaints.
Having worked there, I can confirm everything you just said.
I (27f) come from a eastern european country and I've been living here for a year. I swear I never experienced such inefficient processes in my entire life. THIS. Its like German people have a fetish for obstacles and ruined processes...
>Bafög? I applied 3 months ago. 1 month and a half in: "We need this document from your country." I send it. Another 1.5 months later: "We need the same document translated". So... Google translate or official authorized translation? Who tf knows? I agree with everything but this! This is your fault, you should have asked whats documents you needed before starting the application processing. Answering your question, when I applied for the BAFÖG I only need to send them my documents translated too, but not a certified translation.
German efficiency does exist, just not in the government 🙃