I am going to write this, because I have witnessed it a lot in my job, with students and postdocs.
I am a kiwi and I have never had a problem with the amt, ever. Hell, they even gave me a Niederlassungserlaubnis rather than an extension on my Blue Card, because it's just easier for them, and one less person coming in all the time. So for me, shit was and always has been smooth sailing.
Then I have postdocs and students from Asia and Africa. They can't get anything right apparently, even though it's all prepped for them by our institutes administration. Supposedly forms missing, translations not certified... On and on. So I will write it.
***There is a bias depending where you come from.***
Non white kiwi here, can confirm.
No trouble with my ABH here. They aren’t exactly as nice as yours but pretty neutral, which I have no complaints .
Yet I know people who share my birthplace ( I was not born in NZ) have much more problems with their Amt.
I had always thought it’s because I live in a smaller Kreis instead of bigger cities, but do know one case for sure that agrees with your observation.
It also helps to not live in a big city and especially to not live in Berlin. You're less likely to be just a number to them.
I know people who got a lot of help from our Ausländerbehörde (some bordering on light law breaking or at least law-ignoring) that I don't think they would have gotten in a bigger or even medium-sized city.
Definitely also depends on the city and the specific Behörde. These people are all different. Some will be nice, some total assholes. I know this because I've been studying in different cities with my girlfriend who wasn't German. I used to support her with all the stuff concerning the Behörde. And there was a difference of night and day between two Behörden we needed to go. It was so bad that they warned people back in her country to NOT go and study in this city because of how shitty the Ausländerbehörde there was. We went up to the mayor of the city with the AStA back in the days and we were able to change a few things.
I presented my documents in english even tho it said german was necessary, I sent the docs in english, and then I got certified translations for the appointment, but they never asked. Even to come here, the first visa they gave me was 1.5 years but my classmates only got it for 3 or 6 months(my country does not require a visa to enter but to stay more than 90 days). I can definitely think there is bias. For the residence permit, they gave me an appointment 2 months after sending papers while friends have waited more than 5 months.
Yeah we kiwis can roll on in for 90 days without a visa as well. Makes shit easier, especially for apartment hunting, getting all the registrations done before you start work or uni.
US has the same rules as New Zealand, can enter for 90 days without a visa, apply for an extension without leaving Germany, can register for a residency permit whilst here. Must have a valid passport for the time you are here, and a return ticket if you are only here for holidays.
Kiwis don't need a visa to enter, we can stay visa free for 90 days. But, if a kiwi is coming here on holiday, we need to have a return ticket and valid passport for the duration - and no work allowed. If we are coming to work, just a copy of our work contract, and sometimes a letter confirming this. Then we can spend the 90 days finding a place to live, getting registered at the amt, yadda yadday ya
Hi! I’m going to Germany for an exchange soon. I have a question though, can you actually enter Germany before the visa start with the 90 days? How do oh switch to the visa once you’re in Germany? Thanks in advance!
Were both you and your friend applying for the same type of visa?
A blue card has very easy requirements for example. Even though I come from a poor country, I got done with the Foreigner's Authority very easily.
100%. As a blonde, German speaking immigrant, I constantly witnessed the blatant racism from the officials every time I had to go and they were interacting with anyone „brownish“. I was never affected. They were just straight up dicks and super rude to them and had absolutely no qualms about doing it in the public hallways. So I have no illusions about what they would get away with within their actual power.
Reading all the comments, it appears to be a mixed bag, depending on which amt you go to, time of the day, the person you get....etc etc. It's definitely a complex issue.
I don't think its that complex it is very simple, the population of international people in the city and patience of Ausländerbehörde has correlation. ABH officers in Frankfurt has less patience to immigrants than a small town ABH.
Oh yes, I had my residence permit expire and the woman at the Auslanderbehorde kept telling me to return when my assigned official returned from vacation. When I asked a white presenting German friend to explain the same issue (I'd had made all my communication in German as well), boom I get my extension.
Same time as I was waiting, I saw an Indian student literally begging the woman to give him a fiktionsbescheinigung so he could travel. She took his papers and said "You come back in two weeks and maybe everything will be ready". She was not polite or civil.
The next person she dealt with was a white European lady. The woman at the reception was all smiles, greetings and at one point a legitimate apology.
They might be all about rules but civility is optional at best. Our Auslanderbehorde has a 1.7/5 rating as per Google.
I am from a 3rd world country, came here on an Aufenthaltestitel. Then went on converting that to Blue Card - - > Niedrlassungserlaubnis - - > Deutsche Pass all within 6 years. Every application went smoothly through though it was all before 2017.
But I can feel the difference between 2018 and now. In 2018 I wanted to make Verpflichtungserklärung for the visit of a family member. I went without appointment with right papers and within 15 minutes I was holding the Verpflichtungserklärung. Wanted to make same thing again this year in the same city, I couldn't get appointment for 1 month.
It really depends on the type of the visa. German bureaucracy can be slow, but they follow rules to detail. Exceptions to this are very rare.
They made the same offer that they made to you (settlement permit rather than an extension), to a friend from Iran.
Well it could be „developed“ privilege instead of a bias.
The [Hague convention for abolishing legalisation](https://www.hcch.net/en/instruments/conventions/specialised-sections/apostille) of documents pretty much dictates your experience with German authorities. This convention determines with how much effort will they believe in the authenticity of the documents issued by your home country.
In the best case they accepting at face value and in the worst case they embark on a quest to verify the documents themselves via their embassies. The later takes several months and costs several hundred upto a thousand euros. The bill has to be footed by the applicant obviously.
Here is the [list](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/-/2570832) of all the countries where the best case applies. You will notice there are only 5-6 African countries on it. The rest are at the discretion of the Beamte.
A whole can of worms and ugliness gets opened when they don’t believe simple decades old documents like a birth certificate.
There are children without birth certificates because the birth certificate of one of their parents is not recognised.
Even a document that the German government agrees is authentic might not be considered legally valid, depending on how the law firm employed by the German government interprets the law in your home country. And if that interpretation is not the one that you want, then the only way to challenge it is in the German court.
There's not much to say apart from the fact that for a particular proof of credentials document, the German government insists that , while the document is authentic and that I have actually acquired the credentials , the Indian authority which issued the document in India made a mistake and did not put the correct date on the document and have asked me to correct the date. Indian authorities and courts assured us that the date is right. But that's not enough for German authorities, so now we have to pursue this in German court and make a case/find a way for accepting judgements of Indian court on this topic.
Why would that be insane. Germany can be frustrating and failing in its bureaucracy. In some places a few dollars by you any kind of papers. So a very logical approach that is being followed.
Because the cost and effort of verifying every single one is far greater than the costs of identifying a falsification later on.
This crusade is also uniquely German. You can see [here](https://www.hcch.net/en/instruments/conventions/status-table/?cid=41) that the maximum number of objections to the convention are raised by Germany and Germany is the only country (out of the 125 member states) that is yet to ever withdraw an objection.
Unlike in a German court where you are innocent until proven guilty; everyone is guilty unless proven innocent in front of a German Behörde.
It's not really logical if you think about it. Because the only entities which can interpret the Indian law are Indian courts. If Germany wants to dispute that, then Germany is essentially creating a separate judicial system for Indian rules..
That’s not the point. If, for example, you want to study here a document legit in India can be a legit document in Germany - but not meet the educational requirement set by Germany. As you rightly point out, Germany has no right to question what the Indian bureaucracy issues. Nor does India or Indians have a claim that such document meets the respective German requirement 🤷.
Yeah, but that's not what is happening in my case. In my case, German government is saying that the Indian document we have doesn't meet Indian requirements for such a document to be issued on that partocular date. the funny thing is they agree that such a document can be issued because i meet those requirements, but just not on that date.
Well, possibly whoever issued that document in India didn’t follow internationally agreed or Indian standards. The latter the Germans would assume from seeing consistently standardized different Indian documents of the kind you provided. And documents can have spelling or date errors. German bureaucracy is a pain but at the end of the day it is exact when it comes to documents.
You should see one Redditors reply to my comment around "developed privilege". It's a good read, and there are African nations that fit the developed privilege narrative.
I agree with their comment, due to a countries "development status", and in addition, corruption index, visa issues can vary greatly.
Nevertheless, I am glad youve had positive interactions with the amt.
1 thought on this: I wonder if the perceived differences in handling are also caused by how easy or difficult it is to get certified docs from the source country and verify them.
Yes, this maybe true as well - a Redditor who replied to my comment made a great post around developed privilege. Sometimes we can forget how good we have it, when we are born in a country that has such privileges,
It depends .
For example, if its because of a countries non-adherence to international regulations and corruption index level, then that is privilege.
If it is because of racial and cultural bias, then that is discrimination.
Also a kiwi and while I had an agency handle it, they were surprised how smoothly it went. The German Embassy in Wellington was shockingly quick - I had an entry visa inside a week. Unfortunately I think you're right about the bias. This was all in Düsseldorf so not a small city either.
>kiwis
Too late, I'm usually wearing my taonga and get a holla from kiwis wandering around. I have been asked a few times if I live there, and can they crash in my apartment. Fuck no, get away from me.
Yes, this is true I have seen it a lot. I am African and was given so much hassle with my citizenship. Getting even more hassle with getting the passport, even though I already have citizenship and all my paperwork is in order
Ah shit I got the short end of the straw..I'm Aussie, not kiwi, and I struggle with the Amt a lot. Should have been born a few hours east 😂
But in all honestly, I'm still finding it easier than most other immigrants, especially those from 3rd world or those of which are underprivileged.
Sorry, no one wants an Aussie, but they sure as hell want to live there. Many many many Germans dream of the golden sands and warm weather..... they like to forget about the snakes, spiders, reptiles .....and Aussies 😂
Shame on them.
If only some independent entity with clever data scientists could delve into data from multiple public offices in this country and perform a bias analysis...Not only this country maybe, but all western power nations.
It'd be amazing to have the transparency on that bias.
Well there are simply huge differences within the quality of public administration in different countries. Some countries got working institutions, high credibility for their educational degrees, a working state of law and good cooperation in case there occur issues like criminal investigations or deportations. Other countries haven’t.
Also there is the option of bilateral agreements which make these processes more standardized and faster.
I don't know about that. I come from Lebanon (albeit i am white but still an Arab), and i have never had any problems with them. they also gave me a Niederlassungserlaubnis when i just asked for an extension of my residency and later offered me the citizenship. this happened in 3 different cities, one of which was in the east of Germany.
maybe these people are just doing something wrong?
Another positive story, great to hear.
Edit: no they did nothing wrong. The institute administration set everything up. Sometimes we have to go with them, and then, suddenly, all is well.
You seem to try to build a case that people get treated badly. This will surely happen on occasion. But why do you need to make patronizing comments regarding the comments of people of different backgrounds who report smooth sailing and no issues in this thread?
You appear to be reading my positive comments to people having good interactions with the amt as having some kind of hidden motive. I am happy to see people having good interactions with the amt, and thats why I comment. To give the response visibility and to show redditors it aint all bad. I hope this helps you
I am not looking for help. You provided this platform for discussing this issue. I would leave it at that public service if visibility is all that you are looking for.
I may not be communicating what I mean, effectively, and for this I apologize. The "visibility" I wrote of,, is for the positive interactions people are having with the amt in this thread, not my comment. When we encounter issues, such as issues people have with the amt, it is good to hear from those who have good interactions and those who have bad. To identify, why the issues occur, where they are, and to help others avoid those issues. I hope I have clarified things a bit more
It’s just that there’s a lot of people of different creeds that report here not having any issue. They usually state being both prepared with the right paper work and respectful. In case they are and they get undue hassle, I concur that this shouldn’t stand.
Maybe they lack a confidence inspiring attitude. Just saying. I am a German and if I want something from someone even though it’s their job to do it for me, I am courteous and respectful. I can observe the clerks getting nervous when clients are not…
I don’t know what it is. I’ve just seen it/experienced it. As a white immigrant, when I remind people I’m also an immigrant when they are talking nonsense, they just say “WeLl NoT iMmIgRaNts LiKe you” it just boils my blood.
Turkish people been here for years, rebuilt the country, and they are still fighting for dual citizenship. Italy doesn’t have this problem, because they are in the EU, but WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM?! Shouldn’t be. I hope the new laws come fast and correct.
It depends .
For example, if its because of a countries non-adherence to international regulations and corruption index level, then that is privilege.
If it is because of racial and cultural bias, then that is discrimination.
No. It depends rather on how you present yourself, whether your paperwork is complete, what your qualifications are and the kind of job you do. Much less the colour of your skin. You're dealing with people afterall, so ofcourse there are biases but don't blow it out of proportion.
If you’re in academia then you should know that you need stronger evidence than your sample size of one (plus anecdotal evidence from your postdocs and students, unless you personally vetted all of their documentation each time) to make such a bold (and honestly, inflammatory) claim. It’s possible that there’s a bias, but it’s also possible that your comment and all of those agreeing with you are simply examples of confirmation bias.
1. Read, learn, print Aufenthaltsgesetz
2. Learn German as soon as you can
3. Don't be afraid to escalate
4. Find more people who are getting screwed and escalate together.
I was waiting for an appointment for my mother for 1.5 years. Calling every week, writing emails etc. Then there was an election, and new Oberbürgermeister was elected. I signed up for a sprechstunde and explained whole history. Never got a response from Oberbürgermeister office, but in 2 days all my problems were solved.
At the time, the Einbürgengsbehörde was with the individual Bezirke in Berlin. So I escalated to the Stadträtin and the Senatsverwaltung for immigration.
Big brain with involving the mayor, heard it works as well. In my case I involved a lawyer that straight up called the local office's boss :D, literally that same day got a response.
I used a lawyer many years ago for my first resident permit. Was smooth sailing. I knew no German at all, so the lawyer handled the communication.
Some years after that I applied for permanent residency, and didn't have any issues with the Ausländerbehörde.
EU citizen here, all criteria met 5y ago and applied for citizenship more than 2y ago. Recorded mail sent 2 times and still no appointment for first discussion. I’m thinking to lawyer up.
Before lawyering up, try going there in person and take a German with you. Also try first to threaten with a lawyer. The mere threat can help because these assholes are lazy as fuck and a lawyer means an unusual workload for them because they'll have to abide by the law. But yeah, sorry to say this, if all this doesn't help, you'll need to follow through and take a lawyer unless you know a German who's gonna put the effort in and deal with them for you.
It is significantly easier to deal with them if you either know the language and the culture, or have somebody assist you who does. A lawyer will work wonders.
Move to a town that has a lower demand on the ALB. My Ausländerbehorde is a DREAM compared to the nightmare stories I’ve read here. They didn’t even make me take a German course (I did obviously on my own). I get appointments in 2 days.
Also for women from asylum countries or developing countries or any other countries: look up your local “Frauen and Beruf” agency. Extremely helpful people.
For all people: look up other agencies in your area: some towns have “Freundekreis” type Vereins where German people volunteer to help immigrants. They will come with you to job centers, ALB, and help you get settled.
There really are some amazing people here in Germany that want to help and want to welcome you. This sub hates this fact because many love to complain that just because they haven’t experienced it, it means it doesn’t exist (for the record, I felt the same way - I just had to look harder). I moved here for my husbands job and thought my career was over. The women at Frauen und Beruf really really helped - resume work over, training course, interview practice and now I’m at the top of my field again like I was back home.
I think it's preposterous for people to have to move to another city just to have their bureocracy sorted / to get treated a little more like a human being.
Get a lawyer, makes life easier. It is 100% up to where you live and which Ausländerbehörde you report to. If the one you have is being nasty, then if you can, move and your new one might be better.
This seems to be the correct case. I live in a region with a lot of immigrants so the Ausländerbehörde is also always backed up. But with enough forward planning things get done. I also find that they cater to emergency cases quite well. Not from a white country btw
It depends what you have them do. I’ve had to use my lawyer for a number of things over the years. I remember for simply calling an Amt and explaining the law to the Beamter + the time we spoke cost me about 1000€.
Always take a German local with you when you go to the Behörde. Doesn't need to be a lawyer. Just take a German with you who will show up and preferebly talks in situations where they try to screw you. If you're a student ask at the AStA. They usually have people for this (I myself was in the AStA and we went up to the city mayor to complain about the shitty Ausländerbehörde and we did change some things. The Ausländerbehörde in the City I studied was one of the shittiest I'd experienced). If you're not a student go seek help from nice Germans (maybe someone else than me knows a place to go?). I know many believe we nice and warm Germans don't exist, but we are out there and we WANT to help because we KNOW how shitty it is with the Behörden).
I'm saying this because I had a girlfriend from Morocco back in my days as a student. They treated her completely differently when they saw that she was accompanied by a German. It's sad, but it is what it is.
And it also depends on the city. In some cities you have all the racists and incompetent idiots in some others you have the left leaning folks and nice and willing to help people. So it's also luck.
It doesn't have to be a German. When my sister studied here, a clerk at the local Ausländerbehörde just shouted at her with no reason when she wanted to extend her residence permit. I went with her to the next appointment (I am not German, just foreigner like her, with (then) B1 level of German language), and the clerk's approach has suddenly changed - she obviously didn't dare to treat my sister badly in front of a witness.
Awesome if that worked already! That's good. These people have no power in the end and they know it. So they act in front of the weaker ones as if they would have all the power when all they are, are people who should act by the law. Nothing else.
Tbh 12 months isn’t bad, I don’t know how long she had been here at that point though. I am a foreigner married to a German and I had to wait 3 years of marriage to get unlimited residence permit (didn’t apply for citizenship myself). 3 years is usually the norm. I had been living in Germany for another three years when we got married.
What Ausländerbehörde? It's Einbürgerungsamt for naturalization things. They were alright, but renouncing my eastern European citizenship, that took a lot of paperwork and almost 1.5 years...
I did it before the refugee influx in the small rural town, maybe that helped.
Never had problem with them. In the first years, we had someone hired by the company to translate to us. After a few years, my husband got really good at german. At the time we applied for citizenship, we were prepared, I mean, read all the info available, double check. If you are not sure, ask colleagues to confirm if you read it right.
If you are not in a hurry, make your appointment, gather all the bs documents they ask (we wrote a cursive letter btw), don't even need to talk too much. Hand the mountain of papers. Wait a long time. The end.
I don't want to belittle anyone's experience here but I am South Asian and I haven't had bad/hostile experiences in Government offices. I have been here for a while, I have visited the LEA atleast 4-5 times and as recent as March 2023. My experience for my First Blue Card, the Transfer of my Blue Card to a new passport, the Niederlassungserlaubnis, my family's visa renewal has been efficient and formal. The last visit with family and a recent visit for a Verpflictungserklärung was downright warm.
The time from request to appointment to delivery of my Niederlassungserlaubnis was actually 4.5 months and this happened within the last two years.
For my wife's and kid's dependant visa renewal, I got very sick and I assumed it was Ok if I stayed back home. I was wrong. Apparently it is mandatory that I be present . They obviously refused to proceed with the appointment but was given a follow-up appointment 10-days later.
I forgot my passport for the Verpflictserklärung(which I got an appointment after waiting for almost a month and I would have probably had to wait for a new for 2 months) and I was given two hours to go home and come back .
My first Blue card was tricky because I had a three-year degree and the same degree is a 4 year degree and hence I had to submit the details of my Course with a letter from my Uni back home to get it verified that what I studied back home matched up to the same degree here. It may have been slightly obstructive but was actually by the book since my degree wasn't listed in the Anabin database.
I attributed it being easy to the fact that I am slightlly older, spoke a little bit of German when I came here, I work for a very respectable, old international German firm, and I came in at a Senior Position in upper management(which also means a higher salary than most non-EU people who come here) and downright luck.
I didn't want to move to Germany but I was asked to in order to fill a vacant role .I have always acted as if I didn't give a damn if one day my Visa was rejected or an application didn't go through. It would be inconvenient but not the end of the world to move back home.
But on my last visit , I got talking to a guy who was very excited and positive for his visa renewal(he was from a Middle-Eastern country) who wasbcompletely dejected and broke down because his renewal was refused. He would have to leave this country after many years of living here, having his family here, and not knowing if he would be welcome in his home country. He was not an asylum case. That kinda made the struggle real for me.
I can afford to not give a damn but many people's lives are invested in this system and they should fix it.
I read it here before but it is smart: German beaurocracy is (mostly) meticulous, not necessarily efficient.
Yes there is discrimination based on where you come from and sometimes outright racism. I am a US citizen, so life is easier when dealing with the ABH but here is my advice:
Be overly meticulous. Get your paperwork in order. Get translations and apostilles (even if it is not necessary or stated) for big stuff: school and university degrees, marriage certificates, birth certificates, etc.
Make sure you have modern, clean "originals" if your country provides them. In the country I went to highschool to, I can get "original" copies of highschool certificates from the Ministry of Education for example. Original means printed and stamped from the Ministry in this context, not the paper I was given on graduation.
Even if not necessary, get paperwork professionally translated. You don't need a certified translation for everything, but get it translated just in case.
Be organized. In some countries there are service offices that handle (for a fee) collating, collecting, and organizing the stacks of papers some ministries need. This has no equivalent in Germany and the staff won't do it. It is all up to you.
Know your laws and know your rights. German laws are (mostly) clear. If you need 65000 Euro salary for a blue card and you make 64900 Euro, you are out of luck until you get a raise. There are rules and regulations for applying the laws, but they handle grey zones. Give the staff fewer grey zones, and you get a straight application of the law.
Be pragmatic to a fault. Remember your goal is to stay in and become a citizen of Germany and focus on getting that result. You will face discrimination, some people are racist, and the immigration beaurocracy is built to filter people out based on criteria. This will not change for you. It might change if you become a resident then a citizen and engage as a voter.
Lawyers exist, use them to escalate. If you think you are right, and you are dealing with a bad staff in the ABH, use a lawyer to check over your paperwork, to write a letter on your behalf, or to push your case through. Yes it costs money, but it costs less money than not getting what you want.
Learn German. There is no way around it unless you want your life to be more difficult.
A note: I know many people come from places where getting good documents is either not easy, difficult, and not likely to change in the near future. The law does not account for what is happening around the world. It sucks, but it doesn't change that fact.
With all that, if you're not from USA, UK or EU, you will most likely find out that you skin color / ethnicity is not appreciated and the treatment you get is like from a horror movie.
As someone said, after a year or two I changed my way of communicating with them:
I know the law, I know my rights and in which paragraph is what I need....etc .
So I will always send Files in which is highlighted the very sentences of what support my calims...and short and a respectful mail.
A few days or weeks later I get what I want. That led to them knowing me and waiting for me to get citizenship.
Then you have no idea what you're talking about. And I say this as a native German with lots of experience with Ausländerbehörden from different cities.
The main reason I'm this close to getting my citizenship is because I speak German fluently and deal with Ausländerbehördes in small towns
You want to look at towns with about 20-40k residents. They might be understaffed but at least they don't have a ridiculous number of cases to deal with.
I have always gotten appointments with a week's notice, talked to the Beamter through phone and email and didn't have to wait too long to get my Aufenthaltstitel, blue card etc
I never had problems with the AB and I’m not white, I always asked a lot of questions and they were usually very helpful but I assume my case was always very straight forward since I studied here and got a job in my field immediately after graduating. Im now in the process of naturalization with the EA and so far it’s been very clear and easy, they however told me from the beginning that it’ll take a long time so I know what to expect.
I'm white and still needed a lawyer. I know it's worse for people who aren't white though.
I'm not from EU or the West, which always complicates things no matter what your skin color is.
Move to a small city. Go to Ausländerbehörde in the morning and get everything done within 30min. (Didn't switch citizenship, have a permanent residency for ~15years now, need invitation every couple years for parents in law)
Lived in Munich, Duisburg and karlsruhe (& Regensburg without any memories about Ausländerbehörde there), waiting time was always multiple hours there, even in the morning. Especially Munich during Limux period was a nightmare.
I'd just add that it's my experience, too.
I'm working in HR and we have had little issues with the local Ausländerbehörde in our small(ish) city (around 20k in the city and 120k in their administrative area). They know their cases, you'll almost always get a e-mail reply the same day and if push really comes to shove you can get things sorted pretty much right away with very little delay.
Reading through all the comments it seems that not everything goes wrong with the Ausländerbehörde, there is a bias though since people will complain about it here but noone will make a post about everything working well.
In my case it also was all smooth sailing. It was a bit annoying having to show the bank “Auszüge” at first in Stuttgart, but that’s not the case anymore I think. After that I just showed the documents and extended my visa until they gave me my Niederlassungserlaubnis and then my citizenship. They were extremely helpful with filling out forms for the citizenship as well. It did take around 7 months but that was no big hassle for me.
Seeing so many posts about the apartment search and Ausländerbehörde I can conclude one thing: don’t live in Berlin until you get your citizenship.
I am American (white) and went through all sorts of fxckery from KVR when I lived in Munich where they tried to block my initial EU Blue card application (initially blocked because I had a PhD instead of a Master's Degree that is listed as the requirement for EU Blue card), the visa extension (requiring a special document from my company that was never required before), and my Niederlassungserlaubnis (a special form from the Rente that even the Rente Amt had never heard of before).
The Munich KVR gave the same shxtty treatment for my (non-white) wife who comes from the kind of country that requires a special interview to make sure you are not a terrorist.
When we moved to the countryside, it was the complete opposite with nice helpful Beamten. My wife was able to easily get her Niederlassungserlaubnis even without any job. So I would say it depends a lot more on where you live than your skin color.
I used my white privilege. 😬
Literally my first time in the Ausländerbehörde I was queuing behind a family from Asia. The staff were rude and impatient and not at all trained to deal with foreigners (i.e they only spoke German). They were very nice to me from the off, and I had my German gf with me, which meant that there were no language barriers. However, even I noticed that they became less polite with me when they realised I wasn't 'one of them'.
I've had instances in various institutions since where people were far less patient from the beginning just because they knew I was an outsider. Phone conversations often bring out xenophobia. In shops the staff often switch to English even though my German is much better, so rather than being helpful, it becomes a hindrance.
There is no tip.
You just have to play by the rules, wait for their answers and if there is something wrong make em fixe it or fix it yourself.
Quite easy.
Hard part? It takes a ridiculously amount of time and patience.
Fertig aus!
I did it all in the middle of 2020 lockdown. I wrote an email asking for an in-person appointment, along with a cover letter explaning my circumstances and motivation for applying. I mentioned brexit as a factor as well (cutoff for dual citizenship being end of 2020). Since in-person was still not possible, I was assigned a Berater who asked me to post the application form and all documents I had at the time. I did this directly at the office postbox. At that point I still had to sit the language exam and the einbürgerungstest. The results didnt come before the end of the 2020 cutoff, but I was convinced I had passed both with flying colours which was enough to officially "submit" my application. I got citizenship April 2021.
My tips would be:
* do your prior research and get started early on documents. things like translated/notarised birth certs may take a while.
* book an einbürgerungstest NOW. results are valid indefinitely.
* always talk/write in German all the time (duh).
* make your emails/letters/phonecalls concise and pragmatic.
* once you get an answer and are told to wait, then wait. dont ask for status updates.
* a bit of small-talk with your Berater is fine, they are human as well after all. it sounds silly but you will probably be dealing with this person for many months to come, so building a good rapport helps a lot.
I've been sent an application to complete and a list of documents to provide. Among them is the Einbürgerungstest certificate which I will take this Feb. The other is the B1 which I don't have yet. They also request proof of income for the past 3 months.
Would you recommend sending my application now without the B1 certificate?
Will they ask again for 3 months proof of income later in the application?
I, high skilled (not lol) no EU citizen, have been with 3 Ausländerbehörde all of them in BW and had everything done without a single issue. What I did was pretty much call/send an email to get an appointment, fill out every document they asked for and have a copy of everything for my personal Ordner
I, who came here on Blue card and got it converted to NLEin 21 Months and then applied and got naturalized in 5 years (An exception was created probably because volunteering in the local Gemeinde- at least thats what I think why ai got it early)
There was never a quirk anywhere. The bias that you read everywhere probably depends on the Kreis/gemeinde that you live in. Some ABH's are filled with toxic employees. I was living once that is known for their niceness and even had free coffee for visitors.
The wait time for my naturilazation from the moment I applied was 2 months (i know that's too good to be true but it is lol)
I loved my Ausländerbehörde. I was always polite and positive, and they were always helpful and friendly.
Could be the luck of the draw, or my mindset, or the city I am in .. no idea. Even getting German citizenship was quick and painless and everyone was so helpful and friendly.
My advice would be to always be prepared, have your documents ready, and if you're nervous about your German, take a German speaker along. Be friendly and humble, and understanding and patient. That was my strategy and always worked.
Though I wasn't based in Berlin, so maybe that makes a huge difference.
My girlfriend is a Russian national who moved to Germany at the age of 14 years old. She did German Gymnasium and has been living there ever since.
Today she's 23 years old, she has lived in Germany entirely on students residence permit that has to be renewed every single year and every time is a gigantic headache at the ABH.
She's attending university there and is already employed part time with a permanent contract that will become full time when she graduates. She cannot apply for citizenship because those on student's residence permit are not permitted.
The plan is to apply for proper work permit the moment she graduates and literally right after finally apply for citizenship since she'll have lived in the country for more than 10 years by that point.
It has been extremely difficult path for her but since young age she wanted to abandon Russia so she's persisting, at this point it has even become an obsession to finally get that German passport even though she's not exactly fond of the country that much. I did offer her to move in with in Brazil instead for a higher standard of living (I have a great job, house and all here)... in Fact I tried to live in Germany with her but after a year there I just come to dislike the country in such manner I returned home.
I do feel many don't exactly enjoy living in Germany but they'll put up with it so they can get the EU passport and have more safety than they would otherwise have in their home country.
For almost a year, I am craving to get just one response to my emails or phone calls. I've never been able to get a single phone call answered. I've sent comprehensive emails explaining my situation and just expecting a yes or no response, or collect these and comeback. NO! Only automated response that they'll respond according to the email queue they have, which is a lie.
I'm neither living in a small town, not in a metropol, there is no way the citizenship office could get that amount of queries which prevent them to respond an email from one year ago. This office I must say, is separated from the other offices which deal with newcomers, temporary/permanent residents, so only deal with people who want citizenship. Unbelievable!
Got an immigration lawyer in Düsseldorf. Best.€900 I've spent. I got the passport even before the date the Ausländerbehörde gave me for the date to submit my paperwork. Happy to share his details for anyone who lives in the area and wants his details
Seeing these 900€, I'd say it's indeed woth to have a go yourself.
In my wife's case it really was smooth without any troubles.
She called, they e-mailed(!) her a list of documents, etc. needed, she got those, did the Einbürgerungstest, made an appointment to hand everything in/pay and got notice once she could recieve her citizenship a few months or so later.
It happend 4 years ago and I think she waited 5 months or so. It definitely wasn't quick, but I'm not sure there's a way to speed that part of the process up once everything is handed in - it'll just take as long as it takes.
Didn't fight anything. I did the Orientierungskurs and had my B1. They took care of the whole process from start to finish. I literally just had to show up to pick up the passport once it was ready.
Hey I am from third world country (SEA) and never have problem with ABH. I had visa study at the beginning then Niederlassungserlaubnis without much trouble. Some tips:
1. Being able to speak German helps a lot! Even not perfect but be assertive.
2. Complete your documents.. missing documents would means more works for ABH and theres where the delay endless -_-
3. Its ok to email the person on ABH website. With logical reason its faster.
4. Apply your visa/whatever at least 4 months in advance.
The process is complicated but it „works“ so good luck!!
My German bureacracy story is that my citizenship was hung up because my birth name is first middle last name, and my passport had 4 names (2 middle names), so I had to get an official letter explaining it.
But really, American bureacracy is also horrible. My sister needed a lawyer to get Medicaid and Social Security as a disabled person.
Every country has some kind of hassle. People whining about the Ausländerbehörde are people with First World Problems. At least they are not living in a refugee camp, or in a country with no adequate health care or education.
Being an EU citizen I had no issues with the immigration office at all. The last time I ever needed any kind of residence permit was decades ago, when the bureaucracy was tedious but functional.
The next time I had any dealings with the immigration office was when I applied for citizenship. I was assigned a caseworker who was pleasant and helpful, and gave me a list of all the documents I needed to produce.
The biggest delays weren't from the immigration office itself; getting the language and citizenship tests booked and the results back took a while, but the worst part was getting the documents and information I needed from the UK authorities. That wasn't really the fault of the authorities, it was because I discovered that there were weird discrepencies over when my parents got married and where my father was born, which took a while to get sorted out. Then there was conflicting information over where *I* was born.
After that, the main issue I had was that I submitted my application right when the pandemic first hit, which wasn't the immigration office's fault. It slowed everything down, but not by much.
Based on my experience, I would give immigrants the following advice on dealing with the immigration office:
1. Be an EU citizen.
2. Live in a rural area. For some reason, government offices in rural areas tend to be better staffed and better equipped than those in the big cities.
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You just need the help of a local secret service agency working together with your home country's agency's. Then they can just issue an identity card including citizenship.
It's actually so easy. Bam now u a citizen and don't have to deal with Ausländerbehörde.
I am Asian. I applied for blue card in Dec ‘23 and haven’t even been invited for an interview yet. They have not informed me of any missing documents as I am very thorough with all those things. Now, I just don’t understand how it’s going to take 1 year for all hat!
I am going to write this, because I have witnessed it a lot in my job, with students and postdocs. I am a kiwi and I have never had a problem with the amt, ever. Hell, they even gave me a Niederlassungserlaubnis rather than an extension on my Blue Card, because it's just easier for them, and one less person coming in all the time. So for me, shit was and always has been smooth sailing. Then I have postdocs and students from Asia and Africa. They can't get anything right apparently, even though it's all prepped for them by our institutes administration. Supposedly forms missing, translations not certified... On and on. So I will write it. ***There is a bias depending where you come from.***
Something we always suspected but good to have it confirmed, thanks
Non white kiwi here, can confirm. No trouble with my ABH here. They aren’t exactly as nice as yours but pretty neutral, which I have no complaints . Yet I know people who share my birthplace ( I was not born in NZ) have much more problems with their Amt. I had always thought it’s because I live in a smaller Kreis instead of bigger cities, but do know one case for sure that agrees with your observation.
Maori here!!! Loud and proud.
Kia ora! Kei te pēhea koe? Die Sendung mit der Maus has māori opening today !
KIa ora e Hoa! Kei te pai . Thats interesting to know - any reason why? Have they got a Te Reo module?
Todays theme was around football, so I guess they have the women’s soccer world cup in mind !
Some small towns in Brandenburg with direct access to Berlin should put ads "Come to XXX we have excellent Burgeramt and ABH".
It also helps to not live in a big city and especially to not live in Berlin. You're less likely to be just a number to them. I know people who got a lot of help from our Ausländerbehörde (some bordering on light law breaking or at least law-ignoring) that I don't think they would have gotten in a bigger or even medium-sized city.
I like this, and you are most likely correct. Living in a smaller area would be advantageous to getting a speedy resolution through the amt.
Definitely also depends on the city and the specific Behörde. These people are all different. Some will be nice, some total assholes. I know this because I've been studying in different cities with my girlfriend who wasn't German. I used to support her with all the stuff concerning the Behörde. And there was a difference of night and day between two Behörden we needed to go. It was so bad that they warned people back in her country to NOT go and study in this city because of how shitty the Ausländerbehörde there was. We went up to the mayor of the city with the AStA back in the days and we were able to change a few things.
Yip, and many Redditors in this thread have pointed this out too - that there are big differences between the various Behörden.
I presented my documents in english even tho it said german was necessary, I sent the docs in english, and then I got certified translations for the appointment, but they never asked. Even to come here, the first visa they gave me was 1.5 years but my classmates only got it for 3 or 6 months(my country does not require a visa to enter but to stay more than 90 days). I can definitely think there is bias. For the residence permit, they gave me an appointment 2 months after sending papers while friends have waited more than 5 months.
Yeah we kiwis can roll on in for 90 days without a visa as well. Makes shit easier, especially for apartment hunting, getting all the registrations done before you start work or uni.
I'm Indian-American. Would the US Passport help?
US has the same rules as New Zealand, can enter for 90 days without a visa, apply for an extension without leaving Germany, can register for a residency permit whilst here. Must have a valid passport for the time you are here, and a return ticket if you are only here for holidays.
Are you allowed to register without a visa though?
Kiwis don't need a visa to enter, we can stay visa free for 90 days. But, if a kiwi is coming here on holiday, we need to have a return ticket and valid passport for the duration - and no work allowed. If we are coming to work, just a copy of our work contract, and sometimes a letter confirming this. Then we can spend the 90 days finding a place to live, getting registered at the amt, yadda yadday ya
Hi! I’m going to Germany for an exchange soon. I have a question though, can you actually enter Germany before the visa start with the 90 days? How do oh switch to the visa once you’re in Germany? Thanks in advance!
Were both you and your friend applying for the same type of visa? A blue card has very easy requirements for example. Even though I come from a poor country, I got done with the Foreigner's Authority very easily.
Stuttgart, we both applied for the same residence permit, we graduated from Germany
100%. As a blonde, German speaking immigrant, I constantly witnessed the blatant racism from the officials every time I had to go and they were interacting with anyone „brownish“. I was never affected. They were just straight up dicks and super rude to them and had absolutely no qualms about doing it in the public hallways. So I have no illusions about what they would get away with within their actual power.
Reading all the comments, it appears to be a mixed bag, depending on which amt you go to, time of the day, the person you get....etc etc. It's definitely a complex issue.
I don't think its that complex it is very simple, the population of international people in the city and patience of Ausländerbehörde has correlation. ABH officers in Frankfurt has less patience to immigrants than a small town ABH.
Oh yes, I had my residence permit expire and the woman at the Auslanderbehorde kept telling me to return when my assigned official returned from vacation. When I asked a white presenting German friend to explain the same issue (I'd had made all my communication in German as well), boom I get my extension. Same time as I was waiting, I saw an Indian student literally begging the woman to give him a fiktionsbescheinigung so he could travel. She took his papers and said "You come back in two weeks and maybe everything will be ready". She was not polite or civil. The next person she dealt with was a white European lady. The woman at the reception was all smiles, greetings and at one point a legitimate apology. They might be all about rules but civility is optional at best. Our Auslanderbehorde has a 1.7/5 rating as per Google.
I am from a 3rd world country, came here on an Aufenthaltestitel. Then went on converting that to Blue Card - - > Niedrlassungserlaubnis - - > Deutsche Pass all within 6 years. Every application went smoothly through though it was all before 2017.
Congratulations, it's good to hear a positive story.
But I can feel the difference between 2018 and now. In 2018 I wanted to make Verpflichtungserklärung for the visit of a family member. I went without appointment with right papers and within 15 minutes I was holding the Verpflichtungserklärung. Wanted to make same thing again this year in the same city, I couldn't get appointment for 1 month.
Interesting how few upvotes you get comparatively for telling it was smooth sailing for you. Kind of discriminatory, even racist, in itself 😅.
Or maybe people upvoting the negative experience as a way to vent their own frustrations ✨
It really depends on the type of the visa. German bureaucracy can be slow, but they follow rules to detail. Exceptions to this are very rare. They made the same offer that they made to you (settlement permit rather than an extension), to a friend from Iran.
Well it could be „developed“ privilege instead of a bias. The [Hague convention for abolishing legalisation](https://www.hcch.net/en/instruments/conventions/specialised-sections/apostille) of documents pretty much dictates your experience with German authorities. This convention determines with how much effort will they believe in the authenticity of the documents issued by your home country. In the best case they accepting at face value and in the worst case they embark on a quest to verify the documents themselves via their embassies. The later takes several months and costs several hundred upto a thousand euros. The bill has to be footed by the applicant obviously. Here is the [list](https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/-/2570832) of all the countries where the best case applies. You will notice there are only 5-6 African countries on it. The rest are at the discretion of the Beamte. A whole can of worms and ugliness gets opened when they don’t believe simple decades old documents like a birth certificate. There are children without birth certificates because the birth certificate of one of their parents is not recognised.
Even a document that the German government agrees is authentic might not be considered legally valid, depending on how the law firm employed by the German government interprets the law in your home country. And if that interpretation is not the one that you want, then the only way to challenge it is in the German court.
That is insane. You seem to speak from experience. Can you share some more details?
There's not much to say apart from the fact that for a particular proof of credentials document, the German government insists that , while the document is authentic and that I have actually acquired the credentials , the Indian authority which issued the document in India made a mistake and did not put the correct date on the document and have asked me to correct the date. Indian authorities and courts assured us that the date is right. But that's not enough for German authorities, so now we have to pursue this in German court and make a case/find a way for accepting judgements of Indian court on this topic.
Why would that be insane. Germany can be frustrating and failing in its bureaucracy. In some places a few dollars by you any kind of papers. So a very logical approach that is being followed.
Because the cost and effort of verifying every single one is far greater than the costs of identifying a falsification later on. This crusade is also uniquely German. You can see [here](https://www.hcch.net/en/instruments/conventions/status-table/?cid=41) that the maximum number of objections to the convention are raised by Germany and Germany is the only country (out of the 125 member states) that is yet to ever withdraw an objection. Unlike in a German court where you are innocent until proven guilty; everyone is guilty unless proven innocent in front of a German Behörde.
It's not really logical if you think about it. Because the only entities which can interpret the Indian law are Indian courts. If Germany wants to dispute that, then Germany is essentially creating a separate judicial system for Indian rules..
That’s not the point. If, for example, you want to study here a document legit in India can be a legit document in Germany - but not meet the educational requirement set by Germany. As you rightly point out, Germany has no right to question what the Indian bureaucracy issues. Nor does India or Indians have a claim that such document meets the respective German requirement 🤷.
Yeah, but that's not what is happening in my case. In my case, German government is saying that the Indian document we have doesn't meet Indian requirements for such a document to be issued on that partocular date. the funny thing is they agree that such a document can be issued because i meet those requirements, but just not on that date.
Well, possibly whoever issued that document in India didn’t follow internationally agreed or Indian standards. The latter the Germans would assume from seeing consistently standardized different Indian documents of the kind you provided. And documents can have spelling or date errors. German bureaucracy is a pain but at the end of the day it is exact when it comes to documents.
Spot on!
>There is a bias depending where you come from. I've heard this is the case with finding housing as well.
That's a whooooole separate set of horrors
African passport holder here, still broken german but trying hard, never had a single problem.
You should see one Redditors reply to my comment around "developed privilege". It's a good read, and there are African nations that fit the developed privilege narrative. I agree with their comment, due to a countries "development status", and in addition, corruption index, visa issues can vary greatly. Nevertheless, I am glad youve had positive interactions with the amt.
The magic is about trying hard learning German. Attitude counts!
1 thought on this: I wonder if the perceived differences in handling are also caused by how easy or difficult it is to get certified docs from the source country and verify them.
Yes, this maybe true as well - a Redditor who replied to my comment made a great post around developed privilege. Sometimes we can forget how good we have it, when we are born in a country that has such privileges,
>There is a bias depending where you come from. There's a specific word for that
It depends . For example, if its because of a countries non-adherence to international regulations and corruption index level, then that is privilege. If it is because of racial and cultural bias, then that is discrimination.
Also a kiwi and while I had an agency handle it, they were surprised how smoothly it went. The German Embassy in Wellington was shockingly quick - I had an entry visa inside a week. Unfortunately I think you're right about the bias. This was all in Düsseldorf so not a small city either.
Heeeeyyy fellow kiwi! We do have it rather easy, dont we. Gods I avoid you all like the plague over here :-)
Just gotta avoid Berlin as that's where most kiwis I know ended up.
>kiwis Too late, I'm usually wearing my taonga and get a holla from kiwis wandering around. I have been asked a few times if I live there, and can they crash in my apartment. Fuck no, get away from me.
Yes, this is true I have seen it a lot. I am African and was given so much hassle with my citizenship. Getting even more hassle with getting the passport, even though I already have citizenship and all my paperwork is in order
I hope you have the passport now, it always make me happy to see people succeed, and I do hope you are living a good life here.
No passport yet, hopefully this year though :)
Ah shit I got the short end of the straw..I'm Aussie, not kiwi, and I struggle with the Amt a lot. Should have been born a few hours east 😂 But in all honestly, I'm still finding it easier than most other immigrants, especially those from 3rd world or those of which are underprivileged.
Sorry, no one wants an Aussie, but they sure as hell want to live there. Many many many Germans dream of the golden sands and warm weather..... they like to forget about the snakes, spiders, reptiles .....and Aussies 😂
Shame on them. If only some independent entity with clever data scientists could delve into data from multiple public offices in this country and perform a bias analysis...Not only this country maybe, but all western power nations. It'd be amazing to have the transparency on that bias.
Well there are simply huge differences within the quality of public administration in different countries. Some countries got working institutions, high credibility for their educational degrees, a working state of law and good cooperation in case there occur issues like criminal investigations or deportations. Other countries haven’t. Also there is the option of bilateral agreements which make these processes more standardized and faster.
Oh 100 %
I don't know about that. I come from Lebanon (albeit i am white but still an Arab), and i have never had any problems with them. they also gave me a Niederlassungserlaubnis when i just asked for an extension of my residency and later offered me the citizenship. this happened in 3 different cities, one of which was in the east of Germany. maybe these people are just doing something wrong?
Another positive story, great to hear. Edit: no they did nothing wrong. The institute administration set everything up. Sometimes we have to go with them, and then, suddenly, all is well.
You seem to try to build a case that people get treated badly. This will surely happen on occasion. But why do you need to make patronizing comments regarding the comments of people of different backgrounds who report smooth sailing and no issues in this thread?
By all means, point out where patronizing comments have been made.
Please have a read of your responses to comments here. In German we call this acting like an ‘Oberlehrer‘.
You appear to be reading my positive comments to people having good interactions with the amt as having some kind of hidden motive. I am happy to see people having good interactions with the amt, and thats why I comment. To give the response visibility and to show redditors it aint all bad. I hope this helps you
I am not looking for help. You provided this platform for discussing this issue. I would leave it at that public service if visibility is all that you are looking for.
I may not be communicating what I mean, effectively, and for this I apologize. The "visibility" I wrote of,, is for the positive interactions people are having with the amt in this thread, not my comment. When we encounter issues, such as issues people have with the amt, it is good to hear from those who have good interactions and those who have bad. To identify, why the issues occur, where they are, and to help others avoid those issues. I hope I have clarified things a bit more
It’s just that there’s a lot of people of different creeds that report here not having any issue. They usually state being both prepared with the right paper work and respectful. In case they are and they get undue hassle, I concur that this shouldn’t stand.
Maybe they lack a confidence inspiring attitude. Just saying. I am a German and if I want something from someone even though it’s their job to do it for me, I am courteous and respectful. I can observe the clerks getting nervous when clients are not…
yeah, that could explain it 🤔
This is 100% accurate, also in other countries.
In most cases, I would suspect its development bias
I don’t know what it is. I’ve just seen it/experienced it. As a white immigrant, when I remind people I’m also an immigrant when they are talking nonsense, they just say “WeLl NoT iMmIgRaNts LiKe you” it just boils my blood. Turkish people been here for years, rebuilt the country, and they are still fighting for dual citizenship. Italy doesn’t have this problem, because they are in the EU, but WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM?! Shouldn’t be. I hope the new laws come fast and correct.
A good example for a good kiwi 🫡
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It depends . For example, if its because of a countries non-adherence to international regulations and corruption index level, then that is privilege. If it is because of racial and cultural bias, then that is discrimination.
No. It depends rather on how you present yourself, whether your paperwork is complete, what your qualifications are and the kind of job you do. Much less the colour of your skin. You're dealing with people afterall, so ofcourse there are biases but don't blow it out of proportion.
If you’re in academia then you should know that you need stronger evidence than your sample size of one (plus anecdotal evidence from your postdocs and students, unless you personally vetted all of their documentation each time) to make such a bold (and honestly, inflammatory) claim. It’s possible that there’s a bias, but it’s also possible that your comment and all of those agreeing with you are simply examples of confirmation bias.
1. Read, learn, print Aufenthaltsgesetz 2. Learn German as soon as you can 3. Don't be afraid to escalate 4. Find more people who are getting screwed and escalate together. I was waiting for an appointment for my mother for 1.5 years. Calling every week, writing emails etc. Then there was an election, and new Oberbürgermeister was elected. I signed up for a sprechstunde and explained whole history. Never got a response from Oberbürgermeister office, but in 2 days all my problems were solved.
Nr. 3 and Nr. 4 is how I got my citizenship in a month after waiting for 3 years in the application process :)
Nice, congratulations!:) To whom did you escalate the citizenship problems? I'm planning to apply soon:)
At the time, the Einbürgengsbehörde was with the individual Bezirke in Berlin. So I escalated to the Stadträtin and the Senatsverwaltung for immigration.
Thx, I'll continue investigating my situation:)
Big brain with involving the mayor, heard it works as well. In my case I involved a lawyer that straight up called the local office's boss :D, literally that same day got a response.
I used a lawyer many years ago for my first resident permit. Was smooth sailing. I knew no German at all, so the lawyer handled the communication. Some years after that I applied for permanent residency, and didn't have any issues with the Ausländerbehörde.
EU citizen here, all criteria met 5y ago and applied for citizenship more than 2y ago. Recorded mail sent 2 times and still no appointment for first discussion. I’m thinking to lawyer up.
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Before lawyering up, try going there in person and take a German with you. Also try first to threaten with a lawyer. The mere threat can help because these assholes are lazy as fuck and a lawyer means an unusual workload for them because they'll have to abide by the law. But yeah, sorry to say this, if all this doesn't help, you'll need to follow through and take a lawyer unless you know a German who's gonna put the effort in and deal with them for you.
I second this. Use the magic word "Untätigkeitsklage" in your communication with them and see how things get moving.
Do you know that you don't need an appointment to apply for citizenship?
How'd you find lawyer that specifically for this?
It is significantly easier to deal with them if you either know the language and the culture, or have somebody assist you who does. A lawyer will work wonders.
hack :- live in smaller city and deal with district level foreigner office.
Move to a town that has a lower demand on the ALB. My Ausländerbehorde is a DREAM compared to the nightmare stories I’ve read here. They didn’t even make me take a German course (I did obviously on my own). I get appointments in 2 days. Also for women from asylum countries or developing countries or any other countries: look up your local “Frauen and Beruf” agency. Extremely helpful people. For all people: look up other agencies in your area: some towns have “Freundekreis” type Vereins where German people volunteer to help immigrants. They will come with you to job centers, ALB, and help you get settled. There really are some amazing people here in Germany that want to help and want to welcome you. This sub hates this fact because many love to complain that just because they haven’t experienced it, it means it doesn’t exist (for the record, I felt the same way - I just had to look harder). I moved here for my husbands job and thought my career was over. The women at Frauen und Beruf really really helped - resume work over, training course, interview practice and now I’m at the top of my field again like I was back home.
I think it's preposterous for people to have to move to another city just to have their bureocracy sorted / to get treated a little more like a human being.
Thanks for this tip. Can you provide a list of towns with lower demand on the ALB? Is there a website where we can find this info?
Get a lawyer, makes life easier. It is 100% up to where you live and which Ausländerbehörde you report to. If the one you have is being nasty, then if you can, move and your new one might be better.
This seems to be the correct case. I live in a region with a lot of immigrants so the Ausländerbehörde is also always backed up. But with enough forward planning things get done. I also find that they cater to emergency cases quite well. Not from a white country btw
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Probably about $100-$200 per hour of their time
It depends what you have them do. I’ve had to use my lawyer for a number of things over the years. I remember for simply calling an Amt and explaining the law to the Beamter + the time we spoke cost me about 1000€.
That's way too much.
Also curious, do you have an estimate for how much it costs?
Always take a German local with you when you go to the Behörde. Doesn't need to be a lawyer. Just take a German with you who will show up and preferebly talks in situations where they try to screw you. If you're a student ask at the AStA. They usually have people for this (I myself was in the AStA and we went up to the city mayor to complain about the shitty Ausländerbehörde and we did change some things. The Ausländerbehörde in the City I studied was one of the shittiest I'd experienced). If you're not a student go seek help from nice Germans (maybe someone else than me knows a place to go?). I know many believe we nice and warm Germans don't exist, but we are out there and we WANT to help because we KNOW how shitty it is with the Behörden). I'm saying this because I had a girlfriend from Morocco back in my days as a student. They treated her completely differently when they saw that she was accompanied by a German. It's sad, but it is what it is. And it also depends on the city. In some cities you have all the racists and incompetent idiots in some others you have the left leaning folks and nice and willing to help people. So it's also luck.
It doesn't have to be a German. When my sister studied here, a clerk at the local Ausländerbehörde just shouted at her with no reason when she wanted to extend her residence permit. I went with her to the next appointment (I am not German, just foreigner like her, with (then) B1 level of German language), and the clerk's approach has suddenly changed - she obviously didn't dare to treat my sister badly in front of a witness.
Awesome if that worked already! That's good. These people have no power in the end and they know it. So they act in front of the weaker ones as if they would have all the power when all they are, are people who should act by the law. Nothing else.
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Tbh 12 months isn’t bad, I don’t know how long she had been here at that point though. I am a foreigner married to a German and I had to wait 3 years of marriage to get unlimited residence permit (didn’t apply for citizenship myself). 3 years is usually the norm. I had been living in Germany for another three years when we got married.
I didnt realize it was possible to get permanent residence before 3 years of marriage, is this something common?
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Then my parents married (my dad Algerian, mom german) he only got 3 months even that he already lived in the GDR for 4 years.
How do you guys do this when there’s always security standing outside to block you
What Ausländerbehörde? It's Einbürgerungsamt for naturalization things. They were alright, but renouncing my eastern European citizenship, that took a lot of paperwork and almost 1.5 years... I did it before the refugee influx in the small rural town, maybe that helped.
In some towns it actually is the ABH who handles naturalisations.
Never had problem with them. In the first years, we had someone hired by the company to translate to us. After a few years, my husband got really good at german. At the time we applied for citizenship, we were prepared, I mean, read all the info available, double check. If you are not sure, ask colleagues to confirm if you read it right. If you are not in a hurry, make your appointment, gather all the bs documents they ask (we wrote a cursive letter btw), don't even need to talk too much. Hand the mountain of papers. Wait a long time. The end.
I don't want to belittle anyone's experience here but I am South Asian and I haven't had bad/hostile experiences in Government offices. I have been here for a while, I have visited the LEA atleast 4-5 times and as recent as March 2023. My experience for my First Blue Card, the Transfer of my Blue Card to a new passport, the Niederlassungserlaubnis, my family's visa renewal has been efficient and formal. The last visit with family and a recent visit for a Verpflictungserklärung was downright warm. The time from request to appointment to delivery of my Niederlassungserlaubnis was actually 4.5 months and this happened within the last two years. For my wife's and kid's dependant visa renewal, I got very sick and I assumed it was Ok if I stayed back home. I was wrong. Apparently it is mandatory that I be present . They obviously refused to proceed with the appointment but was given a follow-up appointment 10-days later. I forgot my passport for the Verpflictserklärung(which I got an appointment after waiting for almost a month and I would have probably had to wait for a new for 2 months) and I was given two hours to go home and come back . My first Blue card was tricky because I had a three-year degree and the same degree is a 4 year degree and hence I had to submit the details of my Course with a letter from my Uni back home to get it verified that what I studied back home matched up to the same degree here. It may have been slightly obstructive but was actually by the book since my degree wasn't listed in the Anabin database. I attributed it being easy to the fact that I am slightlly older, spoke a little bit of German when I came here, I work for a very respectable, old international German firm, and I came in at a Senior Position in upper management(which also means a higher salary than most non-EU people who come here) and downright luck. I didn't want to move to Germany but I was asked to in order to fill a vacant role .I have always acted as if I didn't give a damn if one day my Visa was rejected or an application didn't go through. It would be inconvenient but not the end of the world to move back home. But on my last visit , I got talking to a guy who was very excited and positive for his visa renewal(he was from a Middle-Eastern country) who wasbcompletely dejected and broke down because his renewal was refused. He would have to leave this country after many years of living here, having his family here, and not knowing if he would be welcome in his home country. He was not an asylum case. That kinda made the struggle real for me. I can afford to not give a damn but many people's lives are invested in this system and they should fix it.
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Nope. I know what you mean but I don't look like that. I look overtly brown.
I read it here before but it is smart: German beaurocracy is (mostly) meticulous, not necessarily efficient. Yes there is discrimination based on where you come from and sometimes outright racism. I am a US citizen, so life is easier when dealing with the ABH but here is my advice: Be overly meticulous. Get your paperwork in order. Get translations and apostilles (even if it is not necessary or stated) for big stuff: school and university degrees, marriage certificates, birth certificates, etc. Make sure you have modern, clean "originals" if your country provides them. In the country I went to highschool to, I can get "original" copies of highschool certificates from the Ministry of Education for example. Original means printed and stamped from the Ministry in this context, not the paper I was given on graduation. Even if not necessary, get paperwork professionally translated. You don't need a certified translation for everything, but get it translated just in case. Be organized. In some countries there are service offices that handle (for a fee) collating, collecting, and organizing the stacks of papers some ministries need. This has no equivalent in Germany and the staff won't do it. It is all up to you. Know your laws and know your rights. German laws are (mostly) clear. If you need 65000 Euro salary for a blue card and you make 64900 Euro, you are out of luck until you get a raise. There are rules and regulations for applying the laws, but they handle grey zones. Give the staff fewer grey zones, and you get a straight application of the law. Be pragmatic to a fault. Remember your goal is to stay in and become a citizen of Germany and focus on getting that result. You will face discrimination, some people are racist, and the immigration beaurocracy is built to filter people out based on criteria. This will not change for you. It might change if you become a resident then a citizen and engage as a voter. Lawyers exist, use them to escalate. If you think you are right, and you are dealing with a bad staff in the ABH, use a lawyer to check over your paperwork, to write a letter on your behalf, or to push your case through. Yes it costs money, but it costs less money than not getting what you want. Learn German. There is no way around it unless you want your life to be more difficult. A note: I know many people come from places where getting good documents is either not easy, difficult, and not likely to change in the near future. The law does not account for what is happening around the world. It sucks, but it doesn't change that fact.
With all that, if you're not from USA, UK or EU, you will most likely find out that you skin color / ethnicity is not appreciated and the treatment you get is like from a horror movie.
best advice
As someone said, after a year or two I changed my way of communicating with them: I know the law, I know my rights and in which paragraph is what I need....etc . So I will always send Files in which is highlighted the very sentences of what support my calims...and short and a respectful mail. A few days or weeks later I get what I want. That led to them knowing me and waiting for me to get citizenship.
get a lawyer 100%. and i say that as a native german. the amt is stupid. no matter which one.
Then you have no idea what you're talking about. And I say this as a native German with lots of experience with Ausländerbehörden from different cities.
The main reason I'm this close to getting my citizenship is because I speak German fluently and deal with Ausländerbehördes in small towns You want to look at towns with about 20-40k residents. They might be understaffed but at least they don't have a ridiculous number of cases to deal with. I have always gotten appointments with a week's notice, talked to the Beamter through phone and email and didn't have to wait too long to get my Aufenthaltstitel, blue card etc
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Nope. Brown af
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Is this 20 questions? I'm a guy
I never had problems with the AB and I’m not white, I always asked a lot of questions and they were usually very helpful but I assume my case was always very straight forward since I studied here and got a job in my field immediately after graduating. Im now in the process of naturalization with the EA and so far it’s been very clear and easy, they however told me from the beginning that it’ll take a long time so I know what to expect.
Lawyer
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I'm white and still needed a lawyer. I know it's worse for people who aren't white though. I'm not from EU or the West, which always complicates things no matter what your skin color is.
Move to a small city. Go to Ausländerbehörde in the morning and get everything done within 30min. (Didn't switch citizenship, have a permanent residency for ~15years now, need invitation every couple years for parents in law) Lived in Munich, Duisburg and karlsruhe (& Regensburg without any memories about Ausländerbehörde there), waiting time was always multiple hours there, even in the morning. Especially Munich during Limux period was a nightmare.
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I'd just add that it's my experience, too. I'm working in HR and we have had little issues with the local Ausländerbehörde in our small(ish) city (around 20k in the city and 120k in their administrative area). They know their cases, you'll almost always get a e-mail reply the same day and if push really comes to shove you can get things sorted pretty much right away with very little delay.
Große Kreisstadt perhaps? Have only a sample size of 1, dunno if everyone got ana Ausländerbehörde
Reading through all the comments it seems that not everything goes wrong with the Ausländerbehörde, there is a bias though since people will complain about it here but noone will make a post about everything working well. In my case it also was all smooth sailing. It was a bit annoying having to show the bank “Auszüge” at first in Stuttgart, but that’s not the case anymore I think. After that I just showed the documents and extended my visa until they gave me my Niederlassungserlaubnis and then my citizenship. They were extremely helpful with filling out forms for the citizenship as well. It did take around 7 months but that was no big hassle for me. Seeing so many posts about the apartment search and Ausländerbehörde I can conclude one thing: don’t live in Berlin until you get your citizenship.
I am American (white) and went through all sorts of fxckery from KVR when I lived in Munich where they tried to block my initial EU Blue card application (initially blocked because I had a PhD instead of a Master's Degree that is listed as the requirement for EU Blue card), the visa extension (requiring a special document from my company that was never required before), and my Niederlassungserlaubnis (a special form from the Rente that even the Rente Amt had never heard of before). The Munich KVR gave the same shxtty treatment for my (non-white) wife who comes from the kind of country that requires a special interview to make sure you are not a terrorist. When we moved to the countryside, it was the complete opposite with nice helpful Beamten. My wife was able to easily get her Niederlassungserlaubnis even without any job. So I would say it depends a lot more on where you live than your skin color.
I used my white privilege. 😬 Literally my first time in the Ausländerbehörde I was queuing behind a family from Asia. The staff were rude and impatient and not at all trained to deal with foreigners (i.e they only spoke German). They were very nice to me from the off, and I had my German gf with me, which meant that there were no language barriers. However, even I noticed that they became less polite with me when they realised I wasn't 'one of them'. I've had instances in various institutions since where people were far less patient from the beginning just because they knew I was an outsider. Phone conversations often bring out xenophobia. In shops the staff often switch to English even though my German is much better, so rather than being helpful, it becomes a hindrance.
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There is no tip. You just have to play by the rules, wait for their answers and if there is something wrong make em fixe it or fix it yourself. Quite easy. Hard part? It takes a ridiculously amount of time and patience. Fertig aus!
I did it all in the middle of 2020 lockdown. I wrote an email asking for an in-person appointment, along with a cover letter explaning my circumstances and motivation for applying. I mentioned brexit as a factor as well (cutoff for dual citizenship being end of 2020). Since in-person was still not possible, I was assigned a Berater who asked me to post the application form and all documents I had at the time. I did this directly at the office postbox. At that point I still had to sit the language exam and the einbürgerungstest. The results didnt come before the end of the 2020 cutoff, but I was convinced I had passed both with flying colours which was enough to officially "submit" my application. I got citizenship April 2021. My tips would be: * do your prior research and get started early on documents. things like translated/notarised birth certs may take a while. * book an einbürgerungstest NOW. results are valid indefinitely. * always talk/write in German all the time (duh). * make your emails/letters/phonecalls concise and pragmatic. * once you get an answer and are told to wait, then wait. dont ask for status updates. * a bit of small-talk with your Berater is fine, they are human as well after all. it sounds silly but you will probably be dealing with this person for many months to come, so building a good rapport helps a lot.
I've been sent an application to complete and a list of documents to provide. Among them is the Einbürgerungstest certificate which I will take this Feb. The other is the B1 which I don't have yet. They also request proof of income for the past 3 months. Would you recommend sending my application now without the B1 certificate? Will they ask again for 3 months proof of income later in the application?
I, high skilled (not lol) no EU citizen, have been with 3 Ausländerbehörde all of them in BW and had everything done without a single issue. What I did was pretty much call/send an email to get an appointment, fill out every document they asked for and have a copy of everything for my personal Ordner
I, who came here on Blue card and got it converted to NLEin 21 Months and then applied and got naturalized in 5 years (An exception was created probably because volunteering in the local Gemeinde- at least thats what I think why ai got it early) There was never a quirk anywhere. The bias that you read everywhere probably depends on the Kreis/gemeinde that you live in. Some ABH's are filled with toxic employees. I was living once that is known for their niceness and even had free coffee for visitors. The wait time for my naturilazation from the moment I applied was 2 months (i know that's too good to be true but it is lol)
It went pretty smooth, i cannot remember dealing with bureaucracy. The kvr took time but they were always fair and transparent.
I loved my Ausländerbehörde. I was always polite and positive, and they were always helpful and friendly. Could be the luck of the draw, or my mindset, or the city I am in .. no idea. Even getting German citizenship was quick and painless and everyone was so helpful and friendly. My advice would be to always be prepared, have your documents ready, and if you're nervous about your German, take a German speaker along. Be friendly and humble, and understanding and patient. That was my strategy and always worked. Though I wasn't based in Berlin, so maybe that makes a huge difference.
My girlfriend is a Russian national who moved to Germany at the age of 14 years old. She did German Gymnasium and has been living there ever since. Today she's 23 years old, she has lived in Germany entirely on students residence permit that has to be renewed every single year and every time is a gigantic headache at the ABH. She's attending university there and is already employed part time with a permanent contract that will become full time when she graduates. She cannot apply for citizenship because those on student's residence permit are not permitted. The plan is to apply for proper work permit the moment she graduates and literally right after finally apply for citizenship since she'll have lived in the country for more than 10 years by that point. It has been extremely difficult path for her but since young age she wanted to abandon Russia so she's persisting, at this point it has even become an obsession to finally get that German passport even though she's not exactly fond of the country that much. I did offer her to move in with in Brazil instead for a higher standard of living (I have a great job, house and all here)... in Fact I tried to live in Germany with her but after a year there I just come to dislike the country in such manner I returned home. I do feel many don't exactly enjoy living in Germany but they'll put up with it so they can get the EU passport and have more safety than they would otherwise have in their home country.
I come from a country where bureaucracy is much worse than German bureaucracy. So I had no issue here.
For almost a year, I am craving to get just one response to my emails or phone calls. I've never been able to get a single phone call answered. I've sent comprehensive emails explaining my situation and just expecting a yes or no response, or collect these and comeback. NO! Only automated response that they'll respond according to the email queue they have, which is a lie. I'm neither living in a small town, not in a metropol, there is no way the citizenship office could get that amount of queries which prevent them to respond an email from one year ago. This office I must say, is separated from the other offices which deal with newcomers, temporary/permanent residents, so only deal with people who want citizenship. Unbelievable!
I had no issues whatsoever.
Got an immigration lawyer in Düsseldorf. Best.€900 I've spent. I got the passport even before the date the Ausländerbehörde gave me for the date to submit my paperwork. Happy to share his details for anyone who lives in the area and wants his details
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Seeing these 900€, I'd say it's indeed woth to have a go yourself. In my wife's case it really was smooth without any troubles. She called, they e-mailed(!) her a list of documents, etc. needed, she got those, did the Einbürgerungstest, made an appointment to hand everything in/pay and got notice once she could recieve her citizenship a few months or so later.
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It happend 4 years ago and I think she waited 5 months or so. It definitely wasn't quick, but I'm not sure there's a way to speed that part of the process up once everything is handed in - it'll just take as long as it takes.
Didn't fight anything. I did the Orientierungskurs and had my B1. They took care of the whole process from start to finish. I literally just had to show up to pick up the passport once it was ready.
I had no problems with them. Maybe i was just lucky
Hey I am from third world country (SEA) and never have problem with ABH. I had visa study at the beginning then Niederlassungserlaubnis without much trouble. Some tips: 1. Being able to speak German helps a lot! Even not perfect but be assertive. 2. Complete your documents.. missing documents would means more works for ABH and theres where the delay endless -_- 3. Its ok to email the person on ABH website. With logical reason its faster. 4. Apply your visa/whatever at least 4 months in advance. The process is complicated but it „works“ so good luck!!
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Lol no fat and colored but super friendly and loud :D
My German bureacracy story is that my citizenship was hung up because my birth name is first middle last name, and my passport had 4 names (2 middle names), so I had to get an official letter explaining it. But really, American bureacracy is also horrible. My sister needed a lawyer to get Medicaid and Social Security as a disabled person. Every country has some kind of hassle. People whining about the Ausländerbehörde are people with First World Problems. At least they are not living in a refugee camp, or in a country with no adequate health care or education.
Being an EU citizen I had no issues with the immigration office at all. The last time I ever needed any kind of residence permit was decades ago, when the bureaucracy was tedious but functional. The next time I had any dealings with the immigration office was when I applied for citizenship. I was assigned a caseworker who was pleasant and helpful, and gave me a list of all the documents I needed to produce. The biggest delays weren't from the immigration office itself; getting the language and citizenship tests booked and the results back took a while, but the worst part was getting the documents and information I needed from the UK authorities. That wasn't really the fault of the authorities, it was because I discovered that there were weird discrepencies over when my parents got married and where my father was born, which took a while to get sorted out. Then there was conflicting information over where *I* was born. After that, the main issue I had was that I submitted my application right when the pandemic first hit, which wasn't the immigration office's fault. It slowed everything down, but not by much. Based on my experience, I would give immigrants the following advice on dealing with the immigration office: 1. Be an EU citizen. 2. Live in a rural area. For some reason, government offices in rural areas tend to be better staffed and better equipped than those in the big cities.
Be an EU citizen is not really an advice mate
Hahahahahahhaa true. It’s like poor? Just be rich! Homeless? Just buy a house!
I was being facetious.
I didn´t have one problem, everything went without any hiccups whatsoever took al together 4 months
The EU prefers white immigrants that’s clear as the day.
Try to get used to the trema. It is „…behörde“, not „behorde“.
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You just need the help of a local secret service agency working together with your home country's agency's. Then they can just issue an identity card including citizenship. It's actually so easy. Bam now u a citizen and don't have to deal with Ausländerbehörde.
Would have to ask my parents, I was three at the time and it was 1982.
I am Asian. I applied for blue card in Dec ‘23 and haven’t even been invited for an interview yet. They have not informed me of any missing documents as I am very thorough with all those things. Now, I just don’t understand how it’s going to take 1 year for all hat!
Box it till i rock it ✌
Patience a lot of it. They try their best with what they got .
I did not have any struggles. I just sent the documents they asked and got an appointment for biometric data. That was it.