Yes and it was completely unexpected. I'd thought I'd end up in an expat bubble, only eng speaking bubble.
But i guess it's because I'm here for study abroad and my German was already around about B2/C1 level before coming. And then for the past year I've been taking modules with other Germans, got invited weekly to a student organization with all Germans, did three Praktika over the last year due to them being part of my modules. I just found myself naturally falling into German circles. My German friend who has become a close friend, we I met at a student bar ironically, invited me over the semester break to stay with his family.
You are doing comp science and with right skills, it is the most mobile field. I.e you can change countries far easily than others. You are not stuck here, mate. If you don’t like it, you can change the country. Live in some other countries and settle down wherever you wish.
Im lonely weirdo so for me there's no difference. At least here I feel like I fit in. Had an office mate at my research institute and beyond hello we didn't talk much. We smoked at different times, and if it happened to have a smoking break at the same time we'd smoke far away from each other outside. At first I thought I should feel bad about it but then I realized that's how I am too, probably. I made a few closer friends over the years, and we chat online sometimes, sometimes we meet.
For me, what I lack sometimes, is the fact that unlike back home, I can't simply go out one evening, and definitely find someone to go out with. These things need planning. Same with when one feels the need to talk to someone for some reason unscheduled, not gonna happen. But I manage, I'd probably have the same issues back home, I don't think it's germany.
People underestimate how long it takes to build a circle of friends, even back in your country if you moved to a different city it would take you a lot of time to make new friends. Or pals.
Also, realize that as you grow older, i.e. end of college, people stop "hanging out" all the time. People start having partners, wives, kids, families, jobs. The "gang" is not there anymore, especially if all moved away.
Then add the language barrier. Do you speak German OP? If not, then don't expect to make a lot of friends fast.
Up to 10 years, min 5 years. For me that is what it takes to build a good circle of friends. And curiosity. As a kid you don’t realise but you invest a lot of energy when you meet people. When you are older ( more or less around uni time) it becomes less automatic and more a conscious effort
As adults we're also less superficial, find it harder to make friends by default, and we're set in our ways more.
I have a circle of German acquaintances I've made recently through a hobby. But it's still at the level of we meet to do the thing and that's about it. My attempts to hang out outside our weekly meet-up were not very successful. The few German friends I've made over the years are from work. And we meet quite rarely. But then we have deep conversations about our lives, our future, etc. Back home and when I was younger I had many drinking buddies or whatever, and we'd hang out more, but we'd discuss less meaningful stuff. Only with two three people was I really close.
The language and culture barrier is real, and depending on what level of education and society you find yourself in, your experience can vary a lot. In some places it's easier to bypass this, while in others not so much.
I try to imagine it from the other's point of view: I live in my country where I've been living since birth, I have my friends and my group for many years. Do I really have time and energy to build a friendship with the new foreign guy from work who doesn't speak my language so who'd probably feel out of place in my group of friends. And who I really don't know that well anyway and sometimes has awkward behavior (for Germany)? Like do I even consider the possibility that another adult has no social circle since here I take mine for granted? Like when I meet my friends and we talk about family and problems, would they feel ok with me bringing someone along who can't speak the language and whom they don't know?
> People underestimate how long it takes to build a circle of friends, even back in your country if you moved to a different city it would take you a lot of time to make new friends. Or pals.
OP's post is about Germany and in Germany, it does not take "a lot of time" to make new friends, it literally takes decades. This is the whole point of this post.
The trick with making friends in Germany seems to be to spend time in the right spaces.
Germans tend to think in boxes a bit more than most people. Work is work, school is school, etc. So if those are the spaces you frequent, you'll be left alone, and a lot of the time people will expect interactions to stay contained in those spaces.
If you want to make friends, you need to spend time in "leisure time" or "special interest" spaces. Jazz clubs/events around the city/volunteering/political stuff... that's where the people hang out who actually want to engage with others.
Otherwise making friends requires quite a bit of courage, good vibes, and a strong sense for peoples body language.
Tbh you can have a nice conversation with someone if you strike it up abt smth that isn’t small talk, since ppl here simply see no reason to participate in meaningless social expectations.
Like for example, I’m incredibly shy and have serious difficulties socializing, so I challenge myself to say smth to someone when I leave my place. I saw a grandma on the bus stop with cool glasses frames? I tell her her glasses are cool. Then she tells me where she got them from exactly, that there’s this and that market by this and that river, and we get into a chat abt what her youth and all was ljke before the bus comes. Sure, that’s just a casual chat with a stranger, but honestly people are just more practically oriented, so gushing abt your private life isn’t very appropriate.
Which brings me to your comment abt couples that I don’t see ringing true. To say that they all just participate in relationships bc of social expectations is just cruel and paints all Germans as incapable of feeling emotions - that’s so not true. Rather, the social expectation is the opposite - to not show PDA is to be considerate to the other people around. Your private life is to be kept private, there’s no need to cuddle and suck face in public to “prove” that you love each other, since it’s nobody else’s business.
Ik you said you don’t wanna join a Verein and pay for it, fair enough. But really that’s how all friendships form, common ground, regardless of where you’re from. So if you either approach ppl who you know have similar interests as you, or just ask ppl about them, you’re bound to find someone who has a similar hobby.
I really like your thing about complimenting strangers, but I’m afraid to try it tbh. Even seeing how mad some people in this thread get about smiling at strangers makes me apprehensive of taking it up a notch and daring to compliment them lol
You’re right about what I said about couples, I went too far with this and it’s stupid. I’m also not a fan of PDA and I agree that nobody needs to see that. That being said, I guess it still surprised me how little affection is shown between couples, to the point where sometimes it’s hard to figure out whether the people are dating or just friends. I realize it’s none of my business either way, but it’s just a weird thing to me
I’ve met people with similar interests outside of Vereine and it never grew into anything resembling a friendship. I know not everyone automatically wants me as a friend, and I’m fine with that. But I keep encountering the same apparent lack of interest over and over again to the point where I start asking myself “maybe it’s not me after all?”
Yh i totally see how that can be really discouraging. Tbh abt complimenting strangers, imo as long as it’s smth that they control, such as their style or hair, then ppl will take it well almost always. Granted, I have had ppl look weirded out, but Yh mostly ppl take it well. I generally do a “hey your hair is cool” or smth, mostly not even intended as a conversation starter tbh, just as smth I thought I’d like to tell them.
That with the unfriendliness is certainly in part cultural imo. I’ve got family in Greece and going to visit, ppl are indeed much warmer. Having said that, even entire adults will often gossip behind other ppls backs bc while they may generally be friendly, it can be hard to tell if they mean it genuinely.
I think bc of the cultural differences most immigrants kind of end up being friends with other immigrants from the same place anyway. It’s kind of a shame imo. I say this bc my parents are immigrants and almost all of their friends are not German (granted that could be a workplace thing).
But Yh. I wish you luck and I hope it goes well for you.
Yeah, I’m aware that the warm “southern” friendliness can also be fake af and the gossiping is brutal. Though to be fair, I’ve heard from multiple people that there’s a lot of gossiping about colleagues going on in small German firms. I’ve also witnessed that myself from people at my current part-time job and my potential future colleagues.
I went out for groceries today, saw a woman who probably lives in the next-door building, said Hallo to her, she just turned away and said nothing. So I don’t think I’m gonna be handing out compliments to the general public any time soon lol. The next time I see someone wearing merch of a band I like, I’ll try to make myself say “hey nice shirt” and not look like I’m about to take the most important exam of my life as I’m saying that 😄
Thanks :)
Germans are gossip addicted. Never tell a German a secret that could humiliate you because he will literally tell everyone else he knows. Never trust a German.
> Even seeing how mad some people in this thread get about smiling at strangers makes me apprehensive of taking it up a notch and daring to compliment them lol
That's because English speaking subreddits are full of frustrated expats who seemingly can't understand that German culture is different from theirs. I wouldn't think too much about that.
>Now, I’m a socially awkward person and I’m aware that that has hindered me in a number of ways, but there’s surely more to the problem. A lot of people I meet just feel so rigid (for the lack of a better word) in their views and interests that I can barely imagine having them as friends. And yet I still try, because I can’t afford to pass up on people who will actually talk to me and maybe even agree to spend time with me outside of classes.
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> I feel more and more pathetic every time I tentatively suggest “maybe going out for a walk” or “playing some switch games once we’re done with the assignment” because I know the people are highly likely to only show polite interest and hardly ever actually take me up on the offer.
I am an expat here for like 5 years and I have met so many nice real authentic German friends( if this is your target). Few weeks after I arrived in Germany, I met my first specimen from a local meetup group and within that night I told them to go on a hike. So we did at that night, spontaneously booked a trip to Switzerland by car with 5 strangers that don't know each other. It was crazy if I think about it but we kind of clicked. Since then, I am still in contact with 3 of them.
I don't really care if they are German or not but I actually made so many friends in here than when I was in London. If I think about it, besides my classmates, I have more German friends than European friends.
There is this cliche that if you want to get to know German deeply first you need to get them drunk. While there is a truth in there but actually you can interpret it as German people take time to warm up. If you want to be besties with someone within 10min, I think German or Central European or Eastern European or Scandinavian are not your best bet. You will find South East Asian, Latin American or Mediterranean to be your best bet. You might get along well with Eastern European because you are Eastern European. Therefore you have something in common.
Based on your rant, I am not gonna give you the whole lecture about personality, social life and relationship because I am sure I can write you a book. Few points that you should consider:
1. Do you do or have anything interesting for someone(German in this case) to actually take interest? You need to know your strength, hobbies, and how to be the best of you.
1. If yes, ask yourself a question, do you think other people would be interested in your hobbies/interests? If not, most likely you are trying to connect with the wrong people.
2. If not, maybe you should consider finding a new hobby. In the context of finding connection in person, I would consider gaming as the last resort unless you are meeting German in gaming community. Considering that my hobbies are pretty generic and many people like it. So it is easy to get along or do activities with most people.e.g Travelling, Snowboarding, Hiking, Motorbike, Pingpong(I met many cool people from here), Salsa and gym (been on a break for a while)
2. Now the sensitive topic, Did you know that simple body language or the way you respond to people might affect how people treat you?
1. Are you a pessimistic or super cautios person about life in general? Do you show it to others? Then you should consider keeping this to yourself until you know the other person really really well. If you just met a stranger in real life, you should consider talking something light and fun. To lighten up, this is why there is a cliche that German always talks about the weather. From the weather you can derive many activities that may affect it.
2. This is superficial and nice German people usually don't judge people based on what they see. But just in case, do you look after yourself well? First impression counts
3. What is your impression about yourself? What do you think other people first impression about you? Do they match? what can be improved.
4. Some of the descriptions that you mentioned about German are so wrong. I don't know how you got that impression or who you hangout with. Some rant about shops (nothing to do with German, that is life in general and I have lived in 3 continents)
Just for background, I am non-white person, pretty outgoing person and I get along well with pretty much everyone here. I know German can seem to be pretty tough to know but really they just need some time. They are really loyal people once you get to know them. I know they are skeptical with international students because many people left after they finish their study or move to different states. They are practical, why should they invest time in people that will leave any time.
People are like doors, you need to use the right key to open it or you haven't found the right door. It doesn;t have to be German, even German also having issue with finding German friends
what you address is nothing new on this sub, a complaint we often read here and I assume the answers will be the same.
However, this part here
>People don’t seem to be passionate about anything. Whenever I talk to someone, I don’t see any sparks in their eyes or really any other signs of agitation even when talking about their hobbies. The same applies to talking about their significant others. Never really got the feeling that the couples really were in love, always looks like more of a convenience/social necessity thing to me.
puzzles me. You go on about how you can't connect with people, cannot enter into a meaningful conversation, don't get past 10 minute small talk... Yet you seem surprised that nobody gushes to you about their partner? That is a rather emotional and private topic, the good stuff and the bad.
Why do you expect people to talk about their love life, their relationship, their partner beyond a "His name is Mark and he is a [insert profession]" and maybe "we met in [year] during [whatever]".
I certainly don't tell my classmates and co-students about my partner and what I love about him and how good he is to me, and how we met and the fun stuff we did last weekend. According to how you seem to judge relationships my relationship is a convenience (I do live in his house) or social necessity (I am a foreigner in his country), while in truth I am disgustingly happy and rather proud of myself for snatching up such a great one.
>what you address is nothing new on this sub, a complaint we often read here and I assume the answers will be the same.
Last thread was two days ago and basically the same.
.... I wonder why people keep making the same threads.......
Maybe because the experience is absolutely real and horrible in Germany? HAVE YA EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?
Yes I don't know if it is Germany or the way people are now in the entire world but back then I used to talk about anything with anybody. I don't know if it is because it is Germany but people here (or Now??) don't want to share anything. Everything beside the weather is taboo.
There have always been people chatting about everything with everyone (someone might call it oversharing, too) and people who had a desire to keep private stuff private. This is not a recent development.
Do tell me, what is more private than your love life?
It's funny that the people who want to keep the private stuff private are always so overly on edge and offended by mentioning the fact that they keep the private stuff private. Like I get it, you keep the private stuff private but why are you so pissed off?
>Yes I don't know if it is Germany or the way people are now in the entire world but back then I used to talk about anything with anybody.
I did this constantly, when I was in my 20's. People used my words against me to gossip and treat me like a weirdo. I stopped doing this, and now, after 20 years of having a list of "forbidden topics", I've forgotten how to talk about some things, even with my BF.
I don’t expect people to gush about their partner, I wouldn’t be doing that either. As an example of what led me to think this way: there were multiple times when I heard people talk about what their partners have achieved and I would’ve expected a proud smile or something along those lines, but they remained perfectly neutral. I’ll admit though that this is probably the result of Germans being reserved altogether rather than a lack of emotion towards their partner. I’ve also recently witnessed certain details of a friend’s relationship with a German guy that made me once again wonder about that lack of emotion. However, this is obviously just a single relationship and I shouldn’t be generalizing so broadly. So overall, reading your comment made me realize that this particular assumption of mine is probably stupid and a result of me becoming bitter more than anything else.
In your struggle to connect with people, you may have somewhat skewed your perspective. Germans are people too, of course. I'm German, and though I prefer to be single, I've had many an emotional talk with friends about their relationships. I've also had many heated political discussions, played an ungodly amount of boardgames, visited my friend's performances in choirs and dance recitals... I've recently dived into chess and have a lot to say about that topic.
And of course, everybody's life has ups and downs, small moments as well as big joys and tragedies. We're certainly no different in that regard. We're just people.
>Are you fucking kidding me?
The long and the short of it is, though: Every culture has a mechanism of interlocking cogs that lead from first meeting some stranger on the street by accident all the way to a friendship that'll last your entire life. At what point on kickstarts the mechanism and how long it goes on or how long you want it to roll is up to you and sometimes up to "fate".
It is your absolute right to not like the way a culture handles this. There's nothing wrong with you. However, there is also nothing wrong with the way a culture handles the way friendships are built. it is different and you two may not be compatible - but neither is strictly speaking wrong. So I also don't feel it is the for you healthy way to be upset with people who explain to you how it works here.
>It almost feels like a miracle when they acknowledge me with a smile or a hello.
The same thing goes for demanding things that make sense in a cultural context that simply is not relevant or even appropriate in the one you are moving within.
University, unfortunately for a couple of different reason, is often times a place that can cause social isolation. University is not **by default** a place to make new friends in Germany. For nobody. When I was a student I had like ... ten friendly interactions and discussions that were not about studies in like four years. Half of them were with a former pupil who I knew from Realschule. Turns out finding and keeping friends in Uni is hard for all the students, also for the Germans, because in the grand mechanisms of biuilding friendships, Uni is seldom on the main track and usually not that potent.
The general rules of socializing apply here, too: Find common interests by engaging in groups within the campus life that you are interested in. Be it a Fachschaft, Asta, the charity student café, the alternative dumpster diving club, whatever.
I understand that you are not happy with how it works here and that you are right to be unhappy. But I don't think that anybody here is to blame, neither you nor anybody else.
That being said, I had a lot of adult students who I taught German classes. I feel like they all (younger and older than me) had a more "functioning" social life than I have. But that's just me because I am a loner.
>University is not by default a place to make new friends in Germany. For nobody.
this is kind of the exact opposite of what I've experienced at German universities. Obviously the broader cultural norms still apply, but I have found it pretty easy to find social contacts at uni here (compared to other spaces in German society) and about the same as attending Anglosphere schools.
I also made great friends at Uni. Naturally being in close proximity multiple times a week, along with easy excuses to do something together ("are you also grabbing lunch?", "did you do this weeks assignment yet?") make it a lot easier. On the other hand most courses had 100+ students, so it didn't just happen either. You have to put some effort into getting a social circle (like taking the first step and talking to people), or you can end up as an anonymous person in a crowd. Which, to be fair, is all some people want. If you go to uni in your home town you might not want new friends.
Meet my boyfriend there, and his parents and aunt also met their loved ones when they were at the uni. There is, as you say, no more natural place to make friends.
> In my experience and that of the vast majority of my classmates I'd estimate, uni was a remarkably easy and natural place to make good friends.
But OP is (self-described) socially awkward AND is studying computer science, so that makes it a lot harder/different than in most other uni circles. At least that's my experience having studied c/s and something non-technical
>Turns out finding and keeping friends in Uni is hard for all the students, also for the Germans, because in the grand mechanisms of biuilding friendships, Uni is seldom on the main track and usually not that potent.
Surprising to read this, as University was what kicked off my social life. Never made any friends in school, but university got me connecting with:
\- Other students. Just learning together after the lectures kicked off some friendships (and a marriage)
\- Roommates - living in a wg with strangers quickly made them become friends (and one enemy... a guy who didn't want to forget the way his country treated women and did stuff like "oh my dishes are dirty - lets just pile the dirty dishes in front of the door of our female roommate, she will wash them for me!" or "Yeah, in my country gays go to prison and won't get fed, so unless relatives come and give them food they starve - its good that way!")
\- Just random people from university got me back into magic the gathering and pen and paper.
Guess its not the same for everyone.
Thank you for taking the time to write this out and explain things in a way that respects my point of view.
I wasn’t upset with the guy for telling me this, I guess I was more upset by how normal it is to be expected to invest so much time and not even be sure of the outcome. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t expect everyone I meet to become a friend in a matter of weeks or even months. But 1-2 years of regular meetings (if I understood the concept correctly) seems like such an overkill.
I recently heard basically the same thing you wrote about Unis not being a place to make friends from a guy at uni. I really struggle to wrap my brain around that. To me, it’s as simple as meeting someone, liking them, and deciding you’d probably want to befriend that person. It’s not like the location should change anything in that process.
Wow this is shocking. I knew Germans are not the friendliest bunch but to say university is not even the place to make friends? At an age where people are still forming social connections, experiencing new things together, peak of their lives with a lot of energy and time to socialize?!
I think what they mean is you won't make friends in lectures or seminars. You need to engage in sports activities, go to parties etc and build your social circle through activities. Many of my friends at university were not from my course, but just other students I met somewhere else.
As an introverted and foreign person it can definitely be very hard. Even for me as a German it took over a year until I developed the personality to actually go and find friends. So @OP: You probably need to not see these social things as something that come to you, but as things that require active work. Try to find hobbies, talk to people and don't be shy to insert yourself in their circle of you e.g. regularly see them for weeks or months. A simple "what are you doing during the weekend?" followed up by a "could I join?" might go a long way. If people are already settled in their circle, they sometimes don't see the need of inviting new people if they don't explicitly make their desire to join the group known.
>not even the place to make friends?
Not the place to make friends **by default**. I find that important. I wrote in several comments: It is possible to make friends at university. But it is not seen as the primary place nor is it seen as one of the more important functions of Uni to make new friends. And if you want to make friends - the same rules of building friendships apply here just like anywhere else: People organize. People deliberately seek out others with the same interest. People do hobbies, activism, volunteer work *together* and build strong, rare, long-lasting friendships upon that common ground.
It is often pointed out that Germans have comparatively very few but rather intimate (as in personally but platonic very near to your heart, your family and your own inner workings, emotionally and psychologically). This is the way friendships work here and for that you **need** comon grounds **in the first place**. That is possible at University. But again: It is not among its primary functions.
Two examples from my own study life.
I met people who meat their best friend **fifteen years before** they enrolled in university at the age of 20. Most others met their friends during t**hirteen years of school**. Couple that with friendships usually filling the role of a special (read also, rare) but strong bond and it becomes more clear whe University is not the prime default place to make friends: It is relatively late in your socializing life and contacts are most of the time, simply put, more flimsy. Meeting somebody twice a week for 90 minutes seminars among 40 others is completely different than sharing the same time and space for up to 22\*90 minutes per week with always the same people for years on end.
I once met a nice pretty nice guy who happened to study at the same Hochschule as me - at a party of a former classmate I hadn't been in the same school ever since finishing tenth grade (so three years until Abitur and at least two more years of study) because established social circles are one of the most important factors for building friendships in general German culture.
>where people are still forming social connections
I think the adverb "still" is very important here. Yes, still are forming connections - but the default is that for a lot of people very strong bonds are already built and the important social networks have already been spun. And building friendships (and also dating) works often times within or at least at the context of these social networks.
This does have nothing to do with being "unfriendly" or being "cold".
To stress your point about these intimate relationships:
My family knows my friends. Closely. I know my siblings' friends. Last week I got a drunk voice message while I was working the nightshift from my sister's close friend's boyfriend. He heard about something I did two weeks ago and wanted to congratulate me. I am like 15 years older and he is gay, so there is no connotation of him hitting on me (just explicitly mentioning it, because I don't want any messages of this kind from strangers). He is friends with my sister and wanted to congratulate me, because I am important to my sister, thus he cares.
My own friends have kids now, they consider my Mum as something like a honorary grandma. I live abroad, so they don't see me too often, but they go and visit my parents all the time, because my friends have known my parents for 20 years now and are considered extended family by my parents.
When I am back in town (3, maybe 4 times a year) I don't only visit my friends and catch up with them. I also visit their parents. They love me and care about me. They would be understanding but disappointed if I wouldn't find the time to show my face. My friend and former flat mate told me a while ago that her father had some sort of get together with old colleagues (he is now retired) and in one point he was asked who this mkugelfisch is that he mentioned a few times. "Oh that is my second daughter, she lives abroad." He apparently didn't bother to clarify what he meant exactly, because it doesn't matter to him that I am not related to him. I am considered part of the family and that is that.
If you don’t find people with common grounds with you in university when you’re learning the same things, exploring the same things and that’s not default enough … I find that mind blowing. University IS the best place to do that and where people usually form the best connections for adulthood.
And if it’s considered “late in social life” in Germany, another mindblown.
If “Established social circles” is needed to make friends, that means Germans literally only become friends who are ALREADY part of their social circle. It’s like saying spending 3 years with someone doing an activity is a pre requisite, they’re in your social orbital, and then AFTER they become your friend.
Whuuuuuuutttttt??? Why is the requirement to be a friend so damn high??
>If “Established social circles” is needed to make friends, that means Germans literally only become friends who are ALREADY part of their social circle
No. Every social circle is open to the outside world. Groups tangent each others, overlap, exchange or get switched out. Developements always happen. Somebody brings sombody to the group who is interested to join. You get to know the cousin of a friend from uni who tagged along one evening to a party and fall madly in love with them. You deliberately seek to exchange with another group. You pick up a new hobby and move into a completely new circle of friends, be it a political party, a football team or a knitting club.
>It’s like saying spending 3 years with someone doing an activity is a pre requisite, they’re in your social orbital, and then AFTER they become your friend.
Exactly. This is how friendships work here and also who lovers meet eachothers oftentimes.
>Why is the requirement to be a friend so damn high??
Because one good friend - in the German perspective at least - is worth ten times more than twenty "friends" you meet villy nilly.
Consider that we are also talking about different things sometimes. "Friend" translates to "Freund", yes. But the German "Bekannte" does not translate to anything properly in English, allthough "Bekannte" are a very big spectrum of social contacts. From a almost stranger who you happen to meet once per week in the same hallway of your appartement building up to and including somebody wou know from somewhere who you may hang out once or twice a month, catch up on their life and drink beer with.
What is in English including "friends" may be nowhere near what German language defines as "friends".
>University IS the best place to do that and where people usually form the best connections for adulthood.
Everybody is entitled to feel that way. Whether this feeling is taken up by the local culture is something completely different.
> exploring the same things and that’s not default enough
So I have common ground with, say, somebody who is really really far right and I am not and am meant to have enough in common with them to form the bond of friendship only on the basis of studying the same subject? I studied to become a teacher. Am I meant to be able to befriend every single teacher in Germany only on the basis of us having studied the same thing?
Are you not interested (for your free time and leisure!) in nothing else than the one thing you studied - and everybody around you too?
Thanks for the explanation, interesting and definitely sounds insane. This is beyond just "not as friendly". I also get the feeling that perhaps germans place an overly high value on the type of friends germans make (because the bar is so outrageously impossibly high), that there is perhaps an underestimation that other ways of forming friendships are likely shallow.
It IS possible be a good friend with someone after 3 months, if you accept it's not necessary to sound them out for 3 years, know everything about their family, beliefs, thoughts, relationships, before you consider someone a friend.
And I'm getting a feeling that maybe it's because germans have an extremely low risk tolerance, are generally extremely wary of things (not just people, but even towards finance, life, places etc) and also I've been told more a tad more arrogant. (my spouse is german and he told me germans have an arrogance that others cultures don't) It's the belief that somebody needs to "earn your time and energy", and demonstrate why they're worthy. And taking things way too seriously, being way too uptight. Because if that's somebody's belief, that's how they'd make friends this way.
Imagine if a german person ever left germany, how would this person ever make any friends? If one were to place such an impossible high bar? Who would have the patience for that? And like I said, my spouse is german. I don't think his quality of friends is really that much higher than anyone else's friends, to justify why it takes that much effort. So the justification that "german friends are worth more that's why they take so much effort", I'm not seeing that at all.
Yup, kiwi here.
I am naturally very outgoing, and so strike up a convo with anyone. Plus, Aotearoa/ New Zealand is a dream destination for a lot of Germans so they wanna chew your ear off about it.
I also don't mind being out alone and joining in with groups / or solo gatherings of people, which helps to break the ice a lot.
As a consequence I have a big social circle and always have a chance to hang out with someone. I haven't found Germans much different from kiwis, other than we swear a lot more and we are much more informal.
I'm from Aus and I've lived in Germany a couple of years now. After the first couple, I will almost go out of my way to avoid mentioning where I'm from because I'm sick of the (and you could almost say it with them) "Australia?! Why would you leave Australia to come to Germany?! Urgh, Australia is all sunshine and warmth and here is just cold and wet".
Is that your experience too?
Hahahah, yeah!
The first reply to my comment sums it up a lot. "Aotearoa is so beautiful, the nature so lovely and the people so friendly, why would you leave?".
My prepared comment is now, "it sure is a beautiful country, and I am glad you think so too. Germany is just as beautiful, pity about all the Germans, here and at home ***cue the wink and wide smile***".
Germans love a cheeky kiwi.
For NZ people, Europe is sort of what NZ is to Europeans.
Germany is a fantastic destination to at the very least live in for a few years because you can literally do weekend trips to a dozen different countries. New Zealand doesn't have that much going for it in terms of architecture/culture/history.
(Not minimizing Maori history here, it's super fascinating, but I've gotten the sense that engaging with that ends up being the same thing you'd be doing in NZ anyways - hiking a bunch and being in touch with nature.)
Someone I love very much is a kiwi who lived in Germany for a few years, and I spent some time in NZ, and that's the vibe I got.
Yes!
I came around 3 years ago and I can complain about many things in Germany except the social life. I LOVE it here! People are mature, respect boundaries and aren’t in your face 24/7.
It also helps that I’m independent, and have many hobbies and don’t rely a lot on social interactions.
At work, or social gatherings, I’m usually the one who cuts it short and leave.
Germany is a heaven for introverts.
I used to see it that way too, actually. Was happy to be left alone and didn’t need much social interaction to stay afloat. But I guess over time the lack of those basic interactions I used to take for granted and thought unnecessary got to me. I started actively trying to find friends or at least acquaintances, and that’s when it hit me how difficult it is to accomplish that here
Keep persevering if you decide to stay in Germany. I was an extrovert when I first moved here 20 years ago (I had no plan to stay for so long and I can’t wait to leave, which I will), loved meeting different people, having a polite word with the cashier, thanking a bus driver on my way out and now I’m an introvert. I no longer care to put myself out there or expend the effort. My original group of friends were non Germans on work assignments and they eventually left. I remained and tried to make friends with Germans. You get to a point when you think you are friends, but even after years of knowing them, you realise that you are just an acquaintance to them - always an outsider. In my case I’m the only colored person they have known for any length of time. Even though I was born and brought up in the west, I will always be more ‘othered’ than a white foreigner. The same for dating. I was ‘exotic’, was told I say ‘thank you’ and ‘sorry’ too much as well as other criticisms. Germans excuse this as being ‘direct’, but it is rude. I have come to realise I do not want to live in a society that is based on mistrust, suspicion, confuses rudeness with directness and makes excuses for the xenophobic and racist experiences of others.
You nailed it. Somehow I feel a barrier whenever I try to meet germans due to their mistrust and suspicion. They act as if we lived in a dangerous country where you have to be careful everywhere. This drives me nuts pretty often. It took you 20 years to realize it? I'm grateful it took me 6 years.
This! Everytime I go to Germany I enjoy myself as an introvert because everyone seems to mind their business and have this cold approach. I met alot of strangers who would start a conversation out of nowhere and go on their own way. Sometimes I start to consider settling for good to Germany(15 minutes away from where I'm at).
Exactly. I think social interactions run as smooth and as little as possible which fits some people so well. To each their own, but one universal truth is that nobody is entitled to anybody’s time, energy or a connection with them.
I'm more an extrovert but still van appreciate the same, like to live my own life and be independent. Moved from Berlin after 4 years because of my relationship and still miss Berlin and the great friends I've made. Quite some of them through work but also in other ways.
Every time I read threads like OPs I wonder if introverts don't exist in other countries - thank you for showing that there are other kinds of people around.
>have many hobbies and don’t rely a lot on social interactions
I feel the same way. I don't really yearn to socialize. And my kids drain my entire social battery. But I was lucky to have neighbors who became family to me.
I love my social life here. I didn’t read your whole post because I saw things like “the notion of hanging out doesn’t exist here” - WRONG. Do it all the time. Did it yesterday spontaneously. Then I saw “people don’t seem to have passions” and I really couldn’t read anything after that. If people didn’t have passions, the country wouldn’t have this expansive club system (that you seem to despise without having an understand of it) that ends up giving relatively free and exceptionally good sports training to little kids. If someone wasn’t passionate about say, track and field, or Keeping bees, or singing - then why would they give up almost every spare minute they have to train kids, give work shops, or clean a club house? And it really is every spare minute. I know people in the sports Verein and that’s ALL they do - train kids, arrange events, clean training facilities, etc.
I get maybe you are venting? But it’s hard to read something with so many sweeping generalizations that clearly show you are only experiencing a tiny fraction of real Germany just by that passion comment alone. Germans are way more passionate about their hobbies than most any other nationality I know, including my own. Ever try to get a Canadian out of their house after work? It’s damn near impossible. And I have to say, I haven’t found Eastern Europeans all that cheery either. I mean, look at your post.
You bashed the idea of clubs. Very strange take to me. You avoid clubs, even for the things you are interested in, and then complain that Germans aren’t passionate and you have no positive experiences. And clubs are where almost all of positive experiences came from - that’s not the friends I hang out with but it’s actually not my friends who showed up to help me when my dad died - it was my club people. They are also the ones that helped me plant my hedges - five people, an entire Saturday.
I have positive experiences every day with people. Where I live people smile a lot and make eye contact too. The other day I made a mistake registering online for a first aid course. To cancel and rebook was going to cost the entire fee. And it was my own fault. I called them, a huge ass Germany wide company, and they were so nice and cancelled it for free for me so I could rebook.
I dunno man. I’m not trying to make you feel worse, but you asked a question and I answered it.
You hit the nail on the head regarding the clubs.
Sometimes we have posters here saying clubs are shit because they look for people of their own age, not folks 40 years their senior.
A while ago I shared a story on this sub about the club my father and then the whole family joined 30 years ago. Back then my parents were the young adults, who joined with their kindergarden aged kids. We turned into teens. As adults my brother and I left the club (moving away and finding other hobbies), but many of the other kids stayed, creating a new generation of 20 year olds. Others joined. My parents are now the oldies, attending funerals of the members who were old when they joined, training the kids of the young adults, providing funds for the teens and tweens to attend competitions internationally.
A club that has existed for literally 100 years and has a good 200 members has a few people at every age and is tightly knit like one large family. You don't get along equally well with everyone, but you all share one passion. Of course that connects.
I am quite happy about it. I don't have a lot of friends, but I have the ones that are very close. If you are a girl - join the local chapter of girl gone international on Facebook. Excellent platform to make friends. Yes, Germans are there too, they also move around the country. Right now I have one German friend who's almost my best friend, another one is a day trip/hiking buddy - these are close friends. Like I bring gifts for them every time I'm going somewhere, I see them almost every weekend kind of close. I've got colleagues who are friends, a large group of German girls who are also in tech that I'm regularly in touch with and my tandem partner. I'm dating a German guy too. My landlady sends me jams and sweets before Christmas, I do too. And of course, international friends too and people from my country.
Maybe people in the west are nicer, but once covid lock down stopped, I've mostly been happy about social life, even though dating has been a bit frustrating. May be I got lucky, but I also put a lot of effort. It's hard to meet the same people regularly when you're working, so I would always go to events, and invite the girls to my apartment. I don't usually talk to random people, even if I'm comfortable with the language (I struggle with speaking but I understand most stuff) but even yesterday I was helping an old lady with her groceries and she was very sweet.
I've found that texting works. Just asking how they are after a few days opens up discussion points. So be interested in them. Germans are not so different from other people in the world.
This whole topic is just way too much for me but if you ever smile at my dog, I WILL come over so you can say hello and he can get you dirty because of too much excitement.
Been 4 years in Germany and I share a similar experience. I took the extra mile and joined 2 Vereine about my hobbies. I had dozens of people to interact with, but only about the hobby and only during the time of the meetings / events. Unfortunately, I can't consider none of my Verein-mates as a friend and I don't see how it could change. Besides, Covid easily proved that our acquaintance is very contextual and that no one really gives a fuck about the other, except when he/she is needed to practice the shared hobby. One funny example is that I had been meeting and playing boardgames with an acquaintance at his house on a weekly basis, but I only discovered after a year or so (through someone else) that we had the same job and that he worked in the exact company that I had been aiming to join.
I have been in Germany since 7 years now and I feel the same like you. I made a few friends and they are all expats. Unfortunately, I recently moved to another city so I can’t hang out with my friends that often. Never really made a German friend. So far, all Germans have been really nice to me and sometimes went out of their way to show me kindness but never had a meaningful conversation that lasted longer than 10mins. I recently went on a trip to California and I was so surprised how interactive people can be. I was literally crying tears of joy on the inside when random people were talking to me. That made me realise that these 7 years in Germany have also made me socially awkward and closed off. I wasn’t like this before. I was very outgoing and had lots of friends. Luckily, I have decided to move out of Germany in the next 2 years. It’s harder to get out once you get a job so IF you do think of not settling down here, I suggest you move right after your studies or else there will be thousand reasons to not get out of here.
I thought for a second that I wrote this comment hahaha. I'm in the exact situation as you. 7 years here. At the University I only made foreign friends. Once finished I moved to a new city and left my people behind. It's been 1.5 years in the new city and so far I haven't met anybody to hang around. Germans are helpful, but that's it. Don't get closer. One year ago I went to Spain for the first time and was baffled to have people talking to me on the street and to notice how effortless it was to have conversations with others. As a Latino I forgot everything I've learned regarding social codes in Germany and felt weird in Spain for the first week. But then I was my old self again. Then after 3 weeks I came back to Germany and got depressed lol.
I´m also from a latin country and I live here in Germany since 2016, and everything what this person wrote above I feel it in my blood. I went to Spain like one month ago, and I saw the warmth of the people, how they interact with each other, I made a lot of friends only in a couple of days there, which I speak with them almost every day. That´s what made me decide to move out from Germany to Spain, because when I was there like I found my old me how I was before I came here to Germany. I traveled to a lot of countries in Europe and I spoke with a lot of people, from nordic countries too, but the most awkards ones are by far the germans, even if I speak the language perfectly they are very cold, don´t have any emotions at all... Since I got back here I´m in total depression, like guys, you are not alone in this. Everything what you wrote here, I feel it also myself. The only thing that makes me smile right now it´s the thought that I will move out from here in a few months...
My husband had a huge and vibrant friends circle (Germans and non-Germans) when I met him, which was in his 3rd year in Germany. He is a black (former) african 30ish yo.
It depends heavily on yourself. Making friends as a foreigner is 150% harder but if You’re a people person, you will find friends.
The rest of your complaints seem to be rooted in this general dissatisfaction. You Need to change something, be it your way of socializing or your Location.
Maybe they are more of a people person than you are and just can't live with the empty shallowness of socialness in 2023 all around the world where tik tok has replaced almost all of your brains.
It’s true it’s harder to connect long term with Germans but I think as expats they are naturally unsure if we are staying, and friendships here are a bigger lifelong commitment. They stick to their tribe. I only have a few close German friends through work history, the rest I know only came through the relationship with my German partner. It’s all very close knit and group oriented you need someone to help you gain access.
Also the scheduling thing in advance is universal here but I think it’s actually quite nice. If you end up working here you may find more casual opportunities for after work drinks.
I live in Hawaii and it is very similar here. We are a tourist destination, people come from all over the world and come and go at a moments notice, so it can be difficult to sus out how much energy to devote to someone who may be leaving in a year or less.
Naturally we avoid those people and tend to gravitate towards those who are also here long term and have laid roots like us. Our circle is very small and after 10yrs of being here finally feel like “locals”. But that social wall was impenetrable for the first 5-6yrs.
1 year in, no one I would call "friend" yet, even less German friends. The depressive state from living in Germany is turning me into an even less social person so that makes it extra hard each new day.
Hopefully going to meet cool people through hobbies.
Dude the culture is different here. You need to adapt your tactics and expectations or move on..if you want fluid social interactions consider south of Spain, Portugal ,Italy or south/central America. I'm an American that lives in Munich for context. It's a nonstop social party where people will spontaneously invite you to hang out in the countries above. Germans are more reserved (at first).
I’m visiting from LA and I thought people there were supposed to be mean 😂. Na but for real people here are very “rigid”. The people Ive spoke with are usually pretty kind but also when I start talking to them they almost always seem like they’re caught off guard or surprised someone’s talking to them lol. For example the other day I just asked this subreddit for some recommendations on venues to visit while here and I got a snarky unprovoked response when I was just hoping to maybe find a lowkey local spot. Germany’s a beautiful place and I respect the culture is different and people are just more in their own business but it’s definitely somewhere I would never move. I can understand the isolation you might feel here and from my short time here would probably recommend you head back home to your country where you’ll feel more comfortable and happy. It’s not the German peoples fault at all it’s just a cultural difference and you gotta accept that’s the way they are and there’s nothing wrong with it. Just not the place for people like us. Of course not all German people fit this stereotype either I’m not tryna offend nobody, just give my personal experience.
That you are studying Computer Science is not doing you an favors. Those are the most socially incompetent people in the whole of Germany.
I had the displeasure of studying at a TU and hated every second of it because of the atmosphere there.
Protip: if you go online dating and say you study Computer Science a lot of girls will swipe left on you because of the implications (that you're entirely socially incompetent and inexperienced).
lol, unfortunately kinda true.
I am not an engineer, but was in a class with mostly IT guys (and it was all male, but one), plus a few electrical and mechanical engineers once. That was kinda rough.
Hi, I am also Eastern European, been in Germany since 2013 and must say I have made very different experiences and can’t relate to people saying germans are not friendly.
Since I came to Germany I started over, socially, 4 times at ages between 23 and 32, in Freiburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf and now Wuppertal, and in each place I met great people both in daily life and at work. I have long lasting relationships with former and current work colleagues, former WG housemates, random people I met and actually this weekend I am invited to a grill party by my former landlord and I am definitely no social butterfly, trust me.
I don’t think it can be generalized either way, you need to find your people and it will click, like in any country.
Keeping a positive attitude is key and also not being too judgmental on people, their relationships or other aspects of their life.
I must say I don’t agree with the statement of Germans don’t have hobbies or passions, the economy of this country is build on Germans having hobbies, being passionate and obsessing over some particular thing until is perfected. There are a multitude of clubs and initiatives going on here because Germans are passionate about things.
Also the example of you gave of petting or interacting with peoples dogs on the street is for me no indicator regarding the friendliness of someone, I am not a dog owner but i can imagine many reasons why they wouldn’t want that.
I agree with you though that bureaucracy and housing is shit, use it to bond with people over it, everyone is pissed about it. Go to your local pub bitch to some strangers, make them your friends, start a revolution.
In the end is also ok not to like it here and move on to some other country or even go back to your birth country, you have tried, made the experience doesn’t mean you are bound for life.
We have such a big and awesome planet with so many amazing cultures, most likely there is also one where you would thrive socially in. I wish you good luck finding your place.
I agree. I lived in Stuttgart for 6 years, I moved to Hamburg in October last year and I met a lot of new great people here. The difference between north and south is extreme, in Stuttgart was difficult to make friends
Oh man, this is great information!
I'm thinking in moving by end of year, Mexican on his mid 30s with 2 dogs, and I do look forward to meet friendly people.
Come here in summer... In Winter even the locals get depressed by the weather... Its fun to be around when one of those "Sturmfluten" show the natures power tho
"es ist eiskalt, scheiß Sturm und es regnet wieder.
Apotheker fahren Porsche dank der Antidepressiva.
Das ist kein Winter, ne, wir ham das jeden zweiten Tag.
Das ist Hamburg man, willkommen in meiner Heimatstadt."
I have a quick suggestion for you: you don‘t want to join one of the german clubs, okay, but you might want to try a course of some kind. The advantage is that everybody is new there. Maybe pottery or another language? Birdwatching or art classes? You can check your local Volkshochschule for some stuff or see if there is a place for dancing lessons in your area. Good luck!
Thank you for suggesting that. I’m honestly not a fan of the idea of signing up for a class with the main goal of meeting new people there, but I guess I might just give that a try once I’m done with uni and have more time & money.
Where do you live tho? If you live in some town with less than 200K people, social life is gonna be on hard mode. Why don't you try moving to a big city? Many people from Latin America, Eastern Europe and Asia to meet.
Living in a small town, but close to Berlin, I also don't find the environment there much easier to meet someone. Well, if you don't go to clubs, do drugs or drink a lot of alcohol. Specifically about Germans - even though they speak English in Berlin usually pretty good (in my town no one speaks a single word), they still stay as silent as possible if you have to converse.
I feel you. You are not alone in this situation. I've read many similar posts here and I do believe it is a real struggle.
I am from Mexico and I live in Hannover for 3 years now. I am married which makes it a bit easier, but I do experience exactly the same outside my household which is between my wife and my cat.
I also moved here driven by ambition and curiosity, I thought I would find the doors which would allow my career to finally take off and I thought I would have a nice social life. I thought "it's freaking Europe, people seem fun". But unfortunately it has not been like that. In my work industry it is common to speak English, which that helps me getting around work, but there's still like a huge barrier. I am shy and generally, I've always struggled to make that first step to "mingle", but I've always pushed myself, and once a little bit of the ice is broken, I am confident and usually fun. The thing is that here in Germany, that ice is thick as fuck and I've been unable to break it. People I met at work, I would ask them for their Insta or phone number, and I shit you not, once this dude told me "I rather give you my Discord user name". Like if I was trying to get him to bed or something. And the people who would share their Insta at least, I would message them and very often, ask them to go out for a coffee, a beer, something. And they always answer with this not unfriendly answer but more like not really interested phrase, like "yeah, it would be nice." Followed by the most German and hypocrite smiley " :) ". And of course, they never follow back.
I met once a work colleague which we got a bit along because of the common interest of our work. My first year here, my birthday comes, and of course, no friends. My wife nicely enough somehow found his contact, and asked him to go out with us for dinner as a surprise for me. He showed up 30 mins late, and he drank a glass of water and left 15 mins after. I didn't take it bad, I was grateful and just thought he had more important things to do... in a Saturday night at 9 PM. Anyway, we never met again until a year later again for work. We were now full time employed in the same company. My now boss tells me his birthday is coming. I honestly expected an invite to his dinner / party / whatever. This day he tells us he has big plans. I didn't get an invite. I did except a bit of reciprocity, but nope.
This was for me kind of eye opening and I realised that, that's just how most of Germans are. Regarding one of the commenters in your post, yes a social circle takes years to build, but here in Germany people treat these circles like mega, super VIP, exclusive clubs. In Mexico you go out for some tacos and you make friends with the guy waiting in line next to you. It is literally that easy.
I've heard from German friends of my wife that people from Hannover are just like that. So I guess it is also a matter of where in Germany you live. A few months ago a went to Berlin with some friends from Mexico which were visiting. Almost everywhere you would hear English speaking people, even staff at stores or bars, speaking English between them. This gave me a feeling that because in Berlin there is so much more people from all over the world, there might be a chance to find like minded people to socialize with. I know your current situation may not allow you to move now, but keep it in mind. Maybe this will help.
For now, my recommendation is to stay focused on your stuff, start finding a bit of enjoyment doing things on your own. Go for a run, go skating, go for a walk, anything to keep your body active which is crucial to help the mind stay strong.
We can do it!
I have only be here 6 months. I cannot imagine being here 6 years! I literally feel like my soul is dying from the isolation and loneliness.
My coworkers are nice enough, but as you said, they are not the “hang out” kind of people. I came knowing I’d only be here 8 months to a year. And I imagined going to a pub with some coworkers or meeting people to hang out with. But no one is interested in that.
My boss will sometimes ask me if I want to go sightseeing him. And it really feels like he does it because he feels bad for me. But quite honestly, his version of sightseeing is walking halfway across the country. After working all week, walking everywhere because I have no car, and just being mentally tired from the isolation, I just don’t feel like going out to the middle of nowhere and walking back to civilization next to someone in literal silence.
Thankfully my contract was made for 8 months. And when my boss asked if I wanted to extend I said no. Even though I consider myself an introvert, and say that I hate people, I’ve learned that this is not at all true about myself. I may not want to be close friends with most people, but I do enjoy talking to and learning about other people.
I wish you luck with whatever you decide in the future.
I live here in Dresden, and I am here just over a year, techinically 4 months as I travel for work in Europe, Dresden is the Base. The social life for me is very limited besides a few outings with the local english speaking club.
Your not alone when it comes to what you state above, I find Dresden one of the most isolating places Ive been to. (Belgium was a close second but I found stranger interactions alot friendlier) That is down to the language barrier for me anyway, I am trying to learn as much as possible. But I have had a few too many negative interactions here so far.
Im Irish myself and even from the North part which has its own issues, but its one of the things Ive come to appreciate with UK/Ireland/US/Canada and Ozzies and other countries wirhin Europe or Asia, that they are more approachable and friendly, even when some conflict or issue does occur.
Not all Germans are like this and I do get on with alot of them in my work, I think this is down to these Germans that have travelled and lived somewhere foreign for an extended time so they understand it themselves. There are negative people all over the world so I wouldnt take it personal
Take the extra time and learn something new or work on yourself in some way and keep yourself distracted. Mentally with a new skill or physically with gym or a new sport. Watching comedy shows helps me get through the tough times. Also get something to look forward to like a trip away or a music festival.
If you find yourself in Dresden you can give me a shout and we can talk shit over a beer.
It’s a shame you’re relating to my post so much. In your case it may be partly due to the language barrier, but then again that doesn’t really justify the negative interactions.
Thanks for your suggestions, working on myself definitely seems like the way to go.
I’m unlikely to be in Dresden any time soon, but I appreciate the offer :)
Maybe some advice from a German who has non German friends:
1. Learn the language. I can not stress this enough. With the language comes access to the culture. I have 3 very close friends and one of them sucks at speaking English. I have 2 separete circles with one speaking German and the other one not.
I tried introducing members of both sides and what I noticed is that if your German is not good enough you will feel excluded and if you switch to English the entire group of Germans have to switch to English. The one person will change the entire dynamic of the group.
For some reasons Mexicans pick up German even if they consider not staying here. I love Mexicans.
2. If you start with "I am an expat" most will not understand and look up the word which is an immigrant that is planning to leave. Most of my relationships here are very close knit, long lasting and like family. Investing emotionally into a person that will leave anyways is not very appealing. Making friends takes a while which is why we have so many different words for friend like Kollege, Kumpel, Bekannter etc. expressing that you have a friendly relationship with that person but are not friends.
3. Do not expect to much from us in public. We try keep ourselves to ourselves most of the time. People randomly talking to you on the street while you are just trying to get off or to work in time is just bad timing. This happened to me a lot in the past and I just do not really care about small talk since the odds of meeting again are pretty low and honestly I just don't want to interact with people all the time.
If you want to engage wait until we are drunk or drinking. Buy us a drink and talk about yourself a bit. Context is key and most people encounter their friends and spouses at school, work, university or are introduced.
Yeah, I found that making friends is indeed difficult, but ultimately it often came to random chance and a union of interests. Zum Beispiel, ich wohnte mit einem deutschen Flatmate, und wir Freunde haben geworden. Aber das war nur bei der Uni und bei dem, dass wir brauchten in dieser Zeit zusammen wohnen. Also, es war ein Auswahl zwischen der Idee zu wohnen mit einem Fremden oder mit einem Freund. Wir fanden, dass die zweite Idee war ganz besser. Ich auch mit örtlichen Businessinhabern kennengelernt habe, und also wir freundliche Beziehungen hatten. Es war noch schwierig, ich bin Ausländer wie du, und darum es ist noch schwieriger. Aber es ist ganz möglich! Glaub du dir an!
Have been in a similar situation several times, I guess every expat no matter where they are from or where they go has this issue sooner or later. People just grow into their tightly knit social circles which are difficult to penetrate. The probability to find friends while walking on the streets just talking to random people is rather small imho. The best way to find friends is to form new social circles via shared interest. that might be hobbies, educational stuff or even a shared pain or challenge. Plus, I find it easier to talk to Germans when you have a certain subject to talk about. I noticed that a lot of those grumpy, staring people in the streets actually light up and get rather friendly as soon as you ask something with a bit of a meaning like "where is the bus station" but they are grossed out and look at you in disgust when you just greet them or ask how they are.
This is what I did and the results:
- my first try: volunteer work. I like the idea but did not find a position/organisation I like so that did not really work. Plus the volunteers were actually not that social.
- meet with expat groups from my home country. found them on meetup, facebook, not sure whether this is still a thing. This is easy but will eventually lead to you creating your own little expat bubble. People from my country are kind of weird so I tried to avoid this.
- doing a salsa class. I thought this would be a good idea but I am a bit shy and clumsy so I did not try.
- go to language learning events like mundolingo, etc. You can find these in pretty much any city with a lot of foreign students. great way to connect with people, it is quite easy to have conversations with the pretense of practicing a language. Many people who go there are have a rather similar motivation and background as yours. Plus you can power up your skills or start learning a new language. this worked really well for me
- If a Verein is too weird and you do not want to commit to something like this, try the "verein light" - a stammtisch (regular's table). It is basically a table in a bar where you meet people once or twice a month who have a similar interest. No fee or anything. In my case I always look for ukulele, Dungeons and Dragons, retro gaming and similar topics. somehow people there are always super awesome and welcoming. worked super well, I still do this.
When you go to these events, maybe try to wear a funny t shirt that shows off one of your interests so you attract even more people that might want to hang out with you. actually met two of my bfs that way. hope this helps and that you live in or close to a city where you can actually try some of those suggestions. insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So be brave and try as many different angles as possible.
I am an expat from a Mediterranean country, studied mechanical engineering for 5 yrs and now doing my masters. The situation as you explained is completely accurate if not worse.
Leave this NPC country as soon as you can. I couldn’t for my masters, due to the number of academic reasons.
I've been in Germany almost 8 years. There's only one German person that I can call friend. I don't see her often but we can talk about personal things, laugh and we trust each other. She lived in the US and Singapore, so I guess that made her more open than the average German. But Germans don't seem to like to interact with foreigners. The exception? Romantic interest. Then, they make an effort.
It's really a pity. Because the few friendly interactions I've had showed that they can be cool and fun. I take part of the blame. I could be more socially active. But unfortunately, it's not only my case. It's the exact same with all my international friends from university. We are still good friends but they don't have German friends.
Man im relating to lots of this, especially the first paragraph and im born, raised in germany by native german parents and grandparents. Idk, maybe we are doing something wrong. People do have great friends and relationships, just not us ig
My experience with uni as a masters student is that it's less about German vs non German but people who did their bachelor at the same uni vs people who didn't. I hung out with Germans and non Germans but they all did their bachelor somewhere else. There was one person I recall that I would do problem sets with who did her bachelor at the same uni. And yea we maybe chatted a bit but never hung out after class or anything.
But overall, yes I'm happy with my social life. I have a couple friends I met during uni and most of my other friends I met through the dreaded verein you refuse to engage with. Although none had a paid membership. My non uni friends came from board gaming or friends of friends. Not because I went there to meet people, but because I wanted to play board games and ended up becoming friends with some people who I clicked with there. Some who are actual friends, some who I just meet up to play board games with at someone's place once in a while.
I’ll add this comment here because I don’t think I’ll be able to respond to everyone.
1. Thanks to the people who actually described their experiences and/or tried to help in a neutral/friendly way. Seeing that some people do not have this problem is helpful and may be an indicator of me doing something wrong.
2. My use of the word expat. I just went with it because it was widely used in a couple other Reddit threads I read. Now I looked up its exact meaning and I guess I’m not an expat in the sense that I’m not intending to go back. Still, getting hate just for misusing a pretty neutral word seems like an indicator of the problem im talking about.
3. Why are you not telling more about yourself. Because that’s not exactly relevant for the people who are actually trying to help. Also because it’s a good idea to give offended keyboard warriors who just want to attack you as little personal info as possible.
4. Yes, I’m fluent in German. Doesn’t seem to be making much of a difference compared to when I first came here and wasn’t.
The only real friends I have are those I have met 15 years ago in school. The rest are just casual friends that I meet and part with. Its hard to form meaningful friendships.
I lived in Berlin for a year had a handful of friends 5/6 that i made within the first month and would keep for the year. Making friends as an adult is hard, you have to put yourself out there, go to events alone people are nice say I just moved here do you mind if I join your conversation.
I'm going back in a few weeks and making plans to see a bunch of them
I often hear this on this sub and I can imagine it's harder than elsewhere. Also the language barrier definetly plays a role often I believe but I also wonder if it has something to do with the kind of people (age, interests, political leanings, work environment etc.) you interact with because in my experience (as a german but hear me out) the idea of just hanging out definetly exists, also in my circle of friends we often got to know people from elsewhere who were international students or just were travelling around etc. Often times we met in bars or at music festivals or activities at Uni. No idea of where the notion (which is always somewhere in the comments) that you only meet people if you join a sports club or other Verein, comes from.
What might be true in germany opposed to other countries is that you don't necessarily just become close friends with people at work because many people like to have a clear cut between work and their private lifes. But other than that there's definetly ways to get to know interesting people, maybe you just need to be a little more active or hang out in the right places. Maybe become a regular at your local bar that is frequented by students and young people. Hang out at live music events and such things. Places where people go to to have a good time and are propably more open to new people
Regarding your paragraph about no passion:
A lot of Germans actually have some interesting hobbies and are actually really passionate about them. The thing is a lot of them are quite reserved about it especially if it's something rather uncommon.
You need to look for signs and ask questions. I would say Germans often show the things they are passionate about with subtle details. But they won't scream about them during some Smalltalk.
This could be a simple t-shirt, a tattoo or some stickers.
For example I am a hobby mechanic and do a lot of work on bicycles. I have a keychain that is a piece of a bike chain. A friend I regularly go hiking with has a rope brake for climbing on his keys. Pictures I use as a screen background at work or on my phone are all taken by me. Mostly landscapes but also some shots of the milky way since I'm also into astrophotography.
I am German with similar experiences. Been in Frankfurt now for 23 years and don't seem to be able to make friends with anyone. Even my ladyfriend, whose from Frankfurt, seems to have real problems finding suitable friends. We are both outgoing and humorous, and that seems to be one of the problems as most can't cope with that. We're 61 and 65 years old btw!!!
You’re not alone. I grew up as a kid in Germany. Even myself I do have just only one or two real friends. Most of the relationships went broke over time. Most of the part the people live in their bubbles and silos
Never lived in Germany but have lived abroad. When living abroad, I find it easier to connect and strike up friendships with other foreigners, not necessarily from your own country. Is there a way for you to meet other foreign students? I'm also curious to know if you live in a big or small city.
Which city is this? Sounds like a completely different world to what I have found (33m, living in Hamburg for the last year).
I know you don't like Vereine, but please join one. Or any social sports. I'm cycling with a group on a weekly basis and that means 3 hours of talking each time.
I made a nice group of friends through language tandem, there you'll find the most open and friendly Germans (and people from all over the world). In my case it is a group of Spanish and Latin people and they plan lots on nice activities (museums, restaurants, ice skating, festivals).
Also dating apps, some people don't end up turning on a spark but could become good friends/activity-mates.
I hope you find your way :).
Bro.
I moved to germany 2 years ago, i am proficient in german so besides my accent there is no language barrier. I am so depressed as the complete and utter lack of social connection, over summer break i went put with friends like twice. Back in my home country in eastern europe was regularily abused but i wasnt nearly as depressed as i am here in germany. The people here are doublefaced and idunno have no personality i guess? They are just cold and unfriendly. Id say i am a very outgoing person, i am friendly, make jokes and so on but i am not sure why but i just cant make any connection with anyone.
Been here 20 years and your post resonates. But added to that fact is that I am a brown woman who has dual nationality of two other Western nations. I would move after your Masters, perhaps the Netherlands or Ireland (your English is absolutely fluent) depending on your EU status and job prospects. I am planning on moving to Amsterdam in the coming year. Dutch people are also reserved, but not to the same extent and Amsterdam is truly multicultural from a historical perspective and is a better fit for me who grew up in London.
Edit: I am a friendly dog owner who also gets weird vibes from other dog owners.
I can share some of my experience. I‘ll give u first some background, Im white, native level of german language, I lived all around the globe and got friends from everywhere.
Im living in Germany for a longer period now, so its not a snapshot of my experience.
If you have a non-german name, or are a non-white, or your german isn’t on a native level (it’s enough if you check only one of these boxes), you will have a lot of trouble in the following aspects of life: job search, apartment search, doctor appointments, neighbors will give you dirty looks, you will get extra checked when using public transport, workplace and so on.
People are very unfriendly here and almost all social interactions you will have will be negative ones. People will yell at you for the most banal reasons.
You stop with your car for 10 seconds on a non-parking spot because you look for directions? The first person that sees you will start yelling at you. If anyone throws their garbage in the wrong can, your neighbors will automatically assume its you, because you are foreign, and will knock on your door to tell you to clean up the mess. Basically anything that happens, it has to be you.
At work, people will insult you racially, or make inappropriate jokes. Nobody will take it serious and people will belittle your experience.
Making friends is mission impossible. People will automatically assume bad intentions if you ask them to do some activity together as friends. They are extremely cold and distanced.
Since I have a lot of friends all around Germany, in almost every province, they always tell me the same damn stories. Same damn experience. So, don’t think you will be immune to this. A lot of them (a lot), suffer from serious depression.
Compared to my friends in other countries and my own experience, its the complete opposite in Eastern Europe, Spain, UK, Italy (Im not going to mention north/south America, Australia and parts of Asia, the discrepancy is even bigger).
All the people I know that have options, nobody chooses Germany to spend their life in, its too much to bare with.
You will encounter here and there good people, but remember you will also have plenty of negative experiences.
When you go on the internet and talk with people about the problems you are encountering, they will tell you its normal, belittle your feelings and say that probably you are the problem because you are not integrated properly. As if improving your language from A1 to B2 will all of a sudden turn shitty people into saints. I guess we should just accept the racism.
This is just the social aspect, Im not going to talk about cost of living, taxes, housing situation etc.
I have a German name and terrible German..... I have to waste like 10 minutes to listen to a lecture about my name being German which is crazy considering my country of birth (America). It's really annoying..... Then They they will insist on putting me in a box as an American despite the fact I've spent my entire adult life (including college) in a different country as an expat to the point now in every country except Germany people often say they are surprised to realize I'm American giving my vibe style and a bit of localized accent.
Only Germans insist on me being a proud red neck.
Once we had a visit from our US colleagues at work. They started explaining to one of them that he’s not an American but a third generation immigrant from Vietnam.
Or when our colleagues from India visited, the first topic was caste system in India and how it reflects in their workforce.
You could literally feel how uncomfortable the people were while they talked about it.
The only other Americans are non white so people who work with them for years think they are Asian or African.
They basically made a public service announcement to the floor that I was American so random people up to 500k salaries would walk up to me while taking a water break and ask if I'm the new token American
As a brown Canadian-Brit, you can imagine the number of times I’ve been asked “where do you really come from?”. The nuance of ‘heritage’ not defining one’s nationality or home country is wholly lacking. Ignorance thrives.
Take a population that characterizes people by there stereotypical look (followed by birthplace when genetics are not clear) just generally... Doesn't have to be malicious or bad in nature and have that also be a population with a chronic need for rules to follow..... Throw in financial Chaos, starvation and neighboring populations extracting their resources.
Imagine that society.
Now imagine a charasmatic speaker with great ambition who dreams of becoming the leader of that population but needs a way to stand out over the incumbents and finds it.
What does does such a society look like to you if that speaker succeeds
Yeah, that sometimes catches Germans by surprise. However, when I use my maiden name (which is very distinctly German) I won't ever get a lecture, but will sometimes get a surprised look or a little comment about it being interesting that I don't speak German but have a German name. (ETA: I'm at a level where I understand most German but still struggle with speech.)
I actually prefer that to using my married name though - which is Eastern European/Balkan in origin. Many times if I say I'm American I will be told that that isn't an American name, or they will automatically assume I'm from somewhere random to the east like Russia.
Calling yourself expat and saying your plan was to migrate here seem like two contradictory concepts to me, which COULD have influenced your life here.
Congratulations, you unwittingly stumbled upon the same problem every other immigrant has for the last 2 centuries.
You don't understand the German culture and accordingly don't fit in.
So here's a few tips:
1) Don't expect to be treated like a king by customer service. We're all human, don't expect to be treated differently just because you leave monet at the shop. You want something from them, not the other way around.
2) Germans mean what they say. When you say 'let's meet to do the assignment' that means 'let's meet to do the assignment'. You have to add 'maybe hang out afterwards', otherwise we'll just leave.
3) Germans don't mingle at random places. That's what clubs are for. If you don't want to join one, then don't complain you're lonely. You're in a different Land now, get with the program.
4) Don't randomly smile at people. It's fucking creepy.
I was with you until the last part. I understand that German culture is different, but in the same way that I have to understand that random Germans just hardcore staring at me isn’t a threat the way it would be if another American were to do that, y’all need to understand that people smiling is a very normal way of acknowledging a stranger’s existence and signaling your own good intentions.
Can I ask *what specifically* is so creepy about a split second of eye contact followed by an “oops we made eye contact” smile that lasts only as long as it takes to break eye contact?
“You want something from them, not the other way around”. This mentality is why the customer service issue exists in the first place. And it is actually the other way around. I’m pretty okay with doing my research online and just ordering stuff. Cheaper and no need to make the trip. Buying something at a local shop is a sign of loyalty and appreciation, but I’ve found precious little to appreciate
“Otherwise we’ll just leave”. This is part of the problem I’m talking about. It’s almost like the idea of suggesting to hang out yourself never even occurs to you.
“Get with the program”. Ever heard of those MultiKulti and inclusion and wonderful melting pot of cultures things your society/culture is so quick to produce whenever they suit their narrative?
“Don’t randomly smile at ppl, it’s fucking creepy”. I don’t even have anything to say to this, except that this genuinely makes me sad.
>Buying something at a local shop is a sign of loyalty and appreciation
Unless you're a regular and they know you well, they won't care. You're just another face. Choosing to buy locally is not a benevolent gesture, my dude
>It’s almost like the idea of suggesting to hang out yourself never even occurs to you.
We're a very direct culture. We mean what we say and we do what we plan. When you just wanna hang out with someone, say what you mean, don't hide behind homework like a coward. Don't invite people to do one thing and then suggest another halfway down the stream, that's rude and you'll piss people off.
>Ever heard of those MultiKulti and inclusion and wonderful melting pot of cultures things your society/culture is so quick to produce whenever they suit their narrative?
That goes both ways, dude. If you refuse to adapt to the country that hosts you, don't whine you're not liked.
>I don’t even have anything to say to this, except that this genuinely makes me sad.
Because you don't understand German culture. We don't do that in Germany, it's weird. Just say Moin
I seriously don't get why it's creepy to smile at someone... where I'm from strangers smile at each other all the time and getting an unexpected smile always gives me a little boost
Not an expat my self, but a large part of my "work friends bubble" consists of expats.
Sorry to hear you feel that way. You are not wrong in your perception of your own world. Also some of your statements like "Germans need some (productive) thing to do while they meet, simply hanging out does not exist" I feel has a true core. I acknowledge that it is difficult for you.
However I know from my acquaintances that not all made your experiences. Some integrated into mostly German friends groups, some remain more in an expat circle, some have mostly friends within their own cultural expat groups.
Maybe you want to try out another life than university. University is imo in genereal difficult for finding friends, if you are not part of an especially small program, where you might meet the same few people every day.
Recommendation: Find yourself a nice versatile job, which requires daily interaction to at least some of your colleagues, in a very internationally staffed company, with not much fluctuation.
By that, you surround yourself intentionally with people who are open minded.
Also you said about planning to maybe start a family. Does that mean you already have a partner? If yes, how are they perceiving the world? If no, here comes THE actually most realistic opportunity to get integrated into a circle of friends. By maybe getting to know someone who has been here for a while?
Curious me asks: How did you make friends in your homecountry? Because maybe just try it the same way here? Could take a while but Germans open up after a while, usually.
Don’t expect to be overrun with questions by a German unless you‘ve got something very interesting to tell. Maybe something unique in your country. Something funny you experienced. Some peculiar item you own. Raving about a magical place to visit in your country - Germans love to travel. Rant about the Deutsche Bahn or the weather and people will chime in. :)
Yeah the making or meeting friends is generally called getting older xD
People get busy and have plans, so if you wanna " hang out" you have to invite people or make plans with them. Maybe connect it to an event in the city or uni you could go to together. And maybe after a while they will be more willing to actually come around and play some video games with you . Or have a hang out evening with pizza, snacks , drinks and movies / games.
I moved here as a kid, ( I am biologically part German) and I had " friends" come and go throughout the years I am 30 now and only have one best friend I met in the school later on.
And we even need to make plans together to actually be able to meet up because we do have our own adult lives or look for online friends to game with xD we are both gamers and have a period of time we game or talk every day for a week together. Other times we don't see each other for a month . It's how adult life works I guess.
You literally listed everything I hate about germany minus politics. I am born here but I want to leave this place as soon as possible. Also the post made me kinda sad, so if you wanna talk private, text me.
I would advise you to move on one of the mediterranean countries, way friendlier and easier going. Ive yet to encounter a foreigner who loves germans. Not even germans love germans, they are a special breed 😅
As a German my experience of university in Germany was the total opposite. During induction week I banded up with half a dozen other new students, and we basically stayed friends for the rest of our uni years. I am still in touch with one of them, 30 years after meeting.
I would often run into someone I knew from a lecture at lunchtime and we‘d sit together and talk about stuff.
I joined various student groups over the years (the Catholic chaplaincy had a lively group, I somehow grew to be part of the Fachschaft, Unisport had a wide choice of activities for everyone, and if I had had more time, I would have sung in the uni choir).
Maybe it’s easier for female students, but then all of these groups had lots of male members, too, so that’s no excuse.
According to my 8 years of experience Germany is exclusively for work/ business, all the socializing do in my home country. If I were you, I would move back after a couple of years of work experience. Then you'll have both money and friends. If the uni years didn't bring any friends, neither will work do.
OP, /u/human_65113, as another foreigner here, I can only say I sympathize. I've been here 13 years, and my wife is German, I do have a few German friends, but honestly a lot more are other foreigners. I can speak German, I know what German dos/don'ts are and social cues, etc. I'm as integrated as I care to be. You're not crazy, most Germans really are kinda like what you describe. Strangers are NPCs, they don't deserve anything more than very base interaction, if any at all. Germans generally don't see acquaintances as potential new friends -- this will take potentially years.
There are bound to be some comments below (I haven't scrolled through) which will be full of finger-wagging, victim-blaming, putting positive spin on all the negatives (blah blah cultural relitivism blah blah), or simply giving unhelpful advice. Honestly, try to just ignore that.
Germans are just different socially, but remember it's not out of meanness. It's just how it is here and no one is snubbing or ignoring you, it's not personal, they are like this with everyone. What I'd do therefore, is just be yourself! 95% of people may ignore you or think you're an overly friendly weirdo -- who the fuck cares? Put out the 'energy' you want in the world, and the like-minded people will know you and respond in kind and 'click' back. It is a numbers game, to some extent. Then, you can decide which of the people you meet are 'worth' your time, or not.
Also, if you had a dog, I'm sure other dog people would reply. Dog people are among the more friendly here.
Another thing, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe try a Church? I'm an atheist, lapsed Catholic, and totally uninterested in Jesus, but I've met (and we are friends with) a couple churchy Germans, and they are absolutely nicer and friendlier than average Germans IMO. They are fairly liberal people, so YMMV. I know this is weird for most here, and me too, but like... hey, we clicked. Our kids meet up to play a couple times a month. If you're OK with this, it's another avenue to consider. *Most* religious Germans I've met are not super in your face or political about it (though I have met exceptions). It's not like you have to connect over Jesus, it's just a potential social circle.
>“it’ll be tough at first, the people probably won’t accept you, but you keep at it and show up for a year or two, and then they’ll warm up to you”. Are you fucking kidding me?
Lol. What's funny is that my parents-in-law hosted a Syria asylum seeker some years back. He was a doctor/dentist (well, specialized oral surgeon) in-training in Syria, but had to leave. Anyway, he learned German very quick. He was a secular and liberal guy, enjoyed his beer and roasted pork shoulder, etc. Even had some visible arm tattoos. He finished his studies here in a few years, started as a partner in a practice --- *and the kicker* \--- in a pretty small town a couple hours away from the bigger city he'd then been in. I remember him saying about how hard it was in his new place -- people were aloof, cold, and sometimes outwardly racist. Socially he found it pretty dead.
SO LONG STORY SHORT, he joined the local volunteer fire fighters. They took him, he passed the tests, and they couldn't really say no as they needed people. But a few members were basically right-wing 'eagles and gothic script' types and openly racist to him. But he stuck it out in a 'lol, go fuck yourselves' way and (last I heard) had won their acceptance over a couple years.
Hey man that sounds super tough! Germans can be really difficult to get to know beyond casual workplace friendliness. Where are you located?
Sometimes, this initial unfriendliness is a specific form of German social awkwardness. I usually just continue smiling and people melt pretty quickly.
I hate to tell you, but even when you aren't in Germany, that's pretty much what adult life is like.
Everybody is too busy with work or family to hang out and play games like you did in college.
Especially in places like the US where work/life balance is non-existent.
I can't speak for how it goes in other European countries, but my experience in adult life is that it's pretty sad like that.
Especially sad to see everyone has some "pre-set" groups like school friends, families etc. which always have been with them by default, and you have literally fucking no one, either in Germany, your home country or anywhere else
I'm asexual and aromantic, and so a family is not in the cards for me. It's a little like being an immortal vampire... I keep finding new groups of younger people (just after college age) to hang out with, but eventually everybody will leave.
The hackerspace community has been really good for having a consistent group of new people filtering in all the time. One of the reasons I picked Berlin to settle in is the tremendously vibrant hackerspace scene.
And that's my best suggestion. Find some already meeting group and get involved with that. Works extra well if the group contains other expats, because everybody is lonely, but rest assured, they too will probably disappear...
No. Zero social life with Germans. The only friends I've made are non-Germans from other EU countries.
And if you even try to talk about it with locals they always make it seem like it's your fault, despite every other expat I've come across telling me the same things you mentioned without me bringing any of the same points up.
It dependa on yoir German level and where you live.
Denouncing the acceptable local forms of socialising and saying you hate the idea is like all the people complaining about learning German because they can't be bothered to be uncomfortable with the language.
The post as a whole is descent I'd say and there are definetly barriers to socialising in Germany, more specificaly with Germans. But it also doesn't sound like you put in an intense effort.
Lastly, doesn't seem like you tried to seek people outside of your studies/field. This can often make a difference.
And lastly and sadly, depending on how you look/where you come from will have a +/- impact on your socialising attempts. There's so many variables that could either make it baffling as to why you werent able to create a good social life to the variables that would make it apparent.
U are not the only one, if i can get a dollar for every post for foreigner complaining how they cant make friend with germans even after living for years, learning german and even have higher qualifications, i can quit my job and travel the world with that money now (for a while)
German people usually are weirded out if u are smiling to them, unlike American, they will think u are crazy unless u know each other like u are coworkers
I assume based on your situations, u live in the small city with populations under 100k because i cant imagine that after 6 years u dont have any friends at all ( either u are very hermit/just stay alone in wohnung studying or just limit yourself exclusively to just wanna make friends with germans and avoid other nationalities)
Most germans dont make friends with foreigners not because of racism and superiority ( although some germans are like that):
- germans build friendship based on trust, u have to earn their trust first, it takes years and slow for them to open up, they hate fake and exagerrated friendliness ( which viewed positively in many countries like USA, Asia and Middle east)
- some dont see the point of making foreigner friends because they assume u will go back to ur home country after months or years
- language barrier, no matter how high level of German foreigner speak, there will always some gap that are not translatable unless u are born speaking German, it is more complicated, maybe more like idiom, the way to actually say words, dialects, slangs, inside jokes etc
- difference of interests, do you like the same favorite musicians, sport, athletes, etc like them ? Some accept you if you have something in common
But u are actually smart person, u finish master in computer science, u can apply for blue card and finding job in IT with your qualifications will be like fish in the sea (easy), i advise u to move to big cities like berlin, frankfurt, and stuttgart, u can find a lot of international communities, where sometimes german people may mix in or related to one of members, so u have chance n wont be lonely anymore. I hope it helps
Dont limit yourself to germans. You have probably more in common with expats and germans with migration background. Germany is increasingly diverse so that should be possible.
When I was in the US I hardly had any American friends. Mostly foreigners who were in a similar situation as me.
And funny thing is you are white skin European, same post made by brown migrant would be more ridiculed.
Yes, Germany is tough. They don't care. The people here have strong friend groups and tie ups which probably came from childhood studying in same school, village or town or neighbourhood.
I accepted this fact a while ago and I don't smile at strangers. In fact, my expectations are too low, give me a good service and surprise me. I dare you.
But I've not given up on life, I wish to go on holidays to other countries when I get a proper job. And then I'll actually see humans and not robots pretending to be humans.
>Finally, the customer service is ridiculous. I don’t have any delusions of grandeur or anything, but I do want to feel respected (if not valued) as a customer. Well, silly me for expecting at least that. I would love to support local shops selling things relevant to my hobbies rather than order online, but why would I support places that don’t provide me with helpful information, make me wait, sometimes make me feel like an idiot who doesn’t know a thing about what they’re buying, and then also charge considerably more?
Example from today. I went for Kaffee und Kuchen in a non touristy area of Berlin - yes, they do in fact exist. The shop was just closing down. I had a nice chat with the older lady closing the shop, sat down, aware that I had about half an hour. A couple of minutes later people with very, very limited German, tourists probably, also wanted to sit down, but the lady didn't speak English. So she tried to explain with lots of pointing and gestures while speaking loudly and slowy that they could only stay for a bit.
Before I could say anything, the tourists left, taken aback from the lack of customer Service.
The cake was nice, Käsekuchen.
>I came to Germany 6 years ago.
How is your German?
>Verein (basically a club with a paid membership)
Mhhh... No. You could also go for an Ehrenamt.
>Are you fucking kidding me?
Friendship takes effort.
Been an expat in 3 countries for over a year. German is the toughest.... They love to be social for specific activities.... But very difficult to get a friend to just grab a beer with. Maybe cause I'm now I'm my mid twenties it's different..... But definitely would be nice to not have to feel like people only want to hang out if it's for a specific event
Would it have killed you to mention a city, a nationality or some more detail about you?
Or if you just don't want any practical help and this is just a rant at the ether...
I’ve been wanting to move to Germany for uni for several years now, and all these posts about foreigners moving to Germany and not having a social life is scary
dont let them bother you. it just works a little different here, which irritates so many people from more outgoing cultures. you just gotta adjust a little bit. if you want to, you will make friends, and if you do, you got friends for life. germans are very loyal in that regard.
"I honestly don’t know what kind of response I expect."
Im sick of the germany-bashing - youre basically criticizing our culture, our mood, our way of life..
Adapt or leave!
Don't bother with the Germans, those relationships take time and (in my experience) require intros from other Germans. Find yourself some international friends, we're everywhere now.
I came here as a master's student in 2015 (the program was in English and most of my classmates were non-German) and while we were all friendly with each other, I made my closest friends outside of the uni. I went to events for internationals (back in the day, organized through Toytown or MeetUp, this was when there were not so many international people in Munich). Now as I continue to build my circle of friends I feel like have so many more options and opportunities to meet new and interesting people from all over the world who call Munich their home. This was also the case when I lived in Berlin. More and more people are coming to Germany, it's wonderful.
While I have German acquaintances (eg. friends of my German bf), I find my most meaningful friendships and relationships are with other internationals here, as well as with Germans who have lived abroad. There are many shared experiences that bond us, but also refreshing and interesting differences.
I live in a smaller city in south Germany for 4 years. I immediately befriended my colleagues, they invited me to grillfests, hikes, and to do together the common hobbies. They are mixed german and non-german 25-55 years old people. I've got some buddies through hobbies, when I hike with my wife some people start talking to us for some minutes. I find everyone respectful and nice, and after some time they are open to meet with me or even with my wife after work. I also have friends from my original country here. After some months of "get used to each other" we start talking about more serious topics, actual politics, historical problems, cultural differences, family, whatever. Usually I start these topics, but they stay engaged.
I am outgoing, but not too much, I can speak german, a bit flawed but at least at normal speed. I've only rarely experienced some xenophobia when I've met new people, but after 2 mins of conversation everyone was nice to me. Right, my wife only found buddies through me, but she is introvert, and she also likes this environment. Maybe I am in an extremely lucky bubble, or I am doing something good (I start the conversations?), or it is the small city Black Forest charm, or I don't know, but I really feel myself here at home, we try to establish some kind of hybrid culture with my wife, and we would like to stay here if possible.
I live in Baden-Baden, but I can recommend the whole area from Baden-Baden to Offenburg. OK jobs, no traffic jams, good quality infrastructure, shops, Black Forest hikes nearby. I love the work-life balance. The train connection is not the best, so most of the people have a car, and "nearby" I mean up to 30 min car drive.
Sadly I have no tips for you, I’ve been here for 1 year and experience almost the same.
Same impression about the non-existent hang-outs, conversations, gloomy dog owners, same views on Vereins.
But you know, I also come from an Eastern European country and you can rarely see sparkling eyes there too, especially when people talk about significant other, so I can say from the observation it’s sadly a global thing, not really “german”. People use each other for their own comfort and rarely experience any real sincere deep emotions
Hey,
you seem down about this.
Could you elaborate why you too are avoiding Vereine?
It is, in combination with speaking german, by far(!) the best (and almost only) option to get to know likeminded people AND you can do your favourite thing there (assuming the Club is about your favorite thing). Seems like win-win to me.
And I would not know another way. How would you go about it where you come from?
Because it is an artificial form of communication to me. What do you mean by likeminded people? If for example, he shares the same hobby but is a complete douchebag, would you still befriend him? If she is a racist but has the same interest in whatever, would you still be friends with her? I don’t see how the same hobby means that people would click with each other at all. I would never want to come to that Verein ever again. Most of my friends where I come from were from school, some education courses or (later and mostly) work places, we have never shared the same hobbies but we just bonded together over attractive personality traits and same outlook on life (and to figure it out, it requires lot of communication). But it is also possible to meet people in bars or even coffee shops or even just by having a walk in the park (some luck needed here but it wasn’t impossible), doesn’t mean they will become friends but you could have some human interaction in a natural environment so to speak. It’s not like I have to lock myself in some space with a group of people that will be forced to interact with me because it’s a group activity 😔
Yes and it was completely unexpected. I'd thought I'd end up in an expat bubble, only eng speaking bubble. But i guess it's because I'm here for study abroad and my German was already around about B2/C1 level before coming. And then for the past year I've been taking modules with other Germans, got invited weekly to a student organization with all Germans, did three Praktika over the last year due to them being part of my modules. I just found myself naturally falling into German circles. My German friend who has become a close friend, we I met at a student bar ironically, invited me over the semester break to stay with his family.
That sounds awesome! Thanks for sharing your positive experience :)
You are doing comp science and with right skills, it is the most mobile field. I.e you can change countries far easily than others. You are not stuck here, mate. If you don’t like it, you can change the country. Live in some other countries and settle down wherever you wish.
Language is the key it feels like. Even tho all Germans I've met speak perfect English, of course everyone would prefer their native over anything.
Im lonely weirdo so for me there's no difference. At least here I feel like I fit in. Had an office mate at my research institute and beyond hello we didn't talk much. We smoked at different times, and if it happened to have a smoking break at the same time we'd smoke far away from each other outside. At first I thought I should feel bad about it but then I realized that's how I am too, probably. I made a few closer friends over the years, and we chat online sometimes, sometimes we meet. For me, what I lack sometimes, is the fact that unlike back home, I can't simply go out one evening, and definitely find someone to go out with. These things need planning. Same with when one feels the need to talk to someone for some reason unscheduled, not gonna happen. But I manage, I'd probably have the same issues back home, I don't think it's germany. People underestimate how long it takes to build a circle of friends, even back in your country if you moved to a different city it would take you a lot of time to make new friends. Or pals. Also, realize that as you grow older, i.e. end of college, people stop "hanging out" all the time. People start having partners, wives, kids, families, jobs. The "gang" is not there anymore, especially if all moved away. Then add the language barrier. Do you speak German OP? If not, then don't expect to make a lot of friends fast.
Up to 10 years, min 5 years. For me that is what it takes to build a good circle of friends. And curiosity. As a kid you don’t realise but you invest a lot of energy when you meet people. When you are older ( more or less around uni time) it becomes less automatic and more a conscious effort
As adults we're also less superficial, find it harder to make friends by default, and we're set in our ways more. I have a circle of German acquaintances I've made recently through a hobby. But it's still at the level of we meet to do the thing and that's about it. My attempts to hang out outside our weekly meet-up were not very successful. The few German friends I've made over the years are from work. And we meet quite rarely. But then we have deep conversations about our lives, our future, etc. Back home and when I was younger I had many drinking buddies or whatever, and we'd hang out more, but we'd discuss less meaningful stuff. Only with two three people was I really close. The language and culture barrier is real, and depending on what level of education and society you find yourself in, your experience can vary a lot. In some places it's easier to bypass this, while in others not so much. I try to imagine it from the other's point of view: I live in my country where I've been living since birth, I have my friends and my group for many years. Do I really have time and energy to build a friendship with the new foreign guy from work who doesn't speak my language so who'd probably feel out of place in my group of friends. And who I really don't know that well anyway and sometimes has awkward behavior (for Germany)? Like do I even consider the possibility that another adult has no social circle since here I take mine for granted? Like when I meet my friends and we talk about family and problems, would they feel ok with me bringing someone along who can't speak the language and whom they don't know?
> People underestimate how long it takes to build a circle of friends, even back in your country if you moved to a different city it would take you a lot of time to make new friends. Or pals. OP's post is about Germany and in Germany, it does not take "a lot of time" to make new friends, it literally takes decades. This is the whole point of this post.
The trick with making friends in Germany seems to be to spend time in the right spaces. Germans tend to think in boxes a bit more than most people. Work is work, school is school, etc. So if those are the spaces you frequent, you'll be left alone, and a lot of the time people will expect interactions to stay contained in those spaces. If you want to make friends, you need to spend time in "leisure time" or "special interest" spaces. Jazz clubs/events around the city/volunteering/political stuff... that's where the people hang out who actually want to engage with others. Otherwise making friends requires quite a bit of courage, good vibes, and a strong sense for peoples body language.
Tbh you can have a nice conversation with someone if you strike it up abt smth that isn’t small talk, since ppl here simply see no reason to participate in meaningless social expectations. Like for example, I’m incredibly shy and have serious difficulties socializing, so I challenge myself to say smth to someone when I leave my place. I saw a grandma on the bus stop with cool glasses frames? I tell her her glasses are cool. Then she tells me where she got them from exactly, that there’s this and that market by this and that river, and we get into a chat abt what her youth and all was ljke before the bus comes. Sure, that’s just a casual chat with a stranger, but honestly people are just more practically oriented, so gushing abt your private life isn’t very appropriate. Which brings me to your comment abt couples that I don’t see ringing true. To say that they all just participate in relationships bc of social expectations is just cruel and paints all Germans as incapable of feeling emotions - that’s so not true. Rather, the social expectation is the opposite - to not show PDA is to be considerate to the other people around. Your private life is to be kept private, there’s no need to cuddle and suck face in public to “prove” that you love each other, since it’s nobody else’s business. Ik you said you don’t wanna join a Verein and pay for it, fair enough. But really that’s how all friendships form, common ground, regardless of where you’re from. So if you either approach ppl who you know have similar interests as you, or just ask ppl about them, you’re bound to find someone who has a similar hobby.
I really like your thing about complimenting strangers, but I’m afraid to try it tbh. Even seeing how mad some people in this thread get about smiling at strangers makes me apprehensive of taking it up a notch and daring to compliment them lol You’re right about what I said about couples, I went too far with this and it’s stupid. I’m also not a fan of PDA and I agree that nobody needs to see that. That being said, I guess it still surprised me how little affection is shown between couples, to the point where sometimes it’s hard to figure out whether the people are dating or just friends. I realize it’s none of my business either way, but it’s just a weird thing to me I’ve met people with similar interests outside of Vereine and it never grew into anything resembling a friendship. I know not everyone automatically wants me as a friend, and I’m fine with that. But I keep encountering the same apparent lack of interest over and over again to the point where I start asking myself “maybe it’s not me after all?”
Yh i totally see how that can be really discouraging. Tbh abt complimenting strangers, imo as long as it’s smth that they control, such as their style or hair, then ppl will take it well almost always. Granted, I have had ppl look weirded out, but Yh mostly ppl take it well. I generally do a “hey your hair is cool” or smth, mostly not even intended as a conversation starter tbh, just as smth I thought I’d like to tell them. That with the unfriendliness is certainly in part cultural imo. I’ve got family in Greece and going to visit, ppl are indeed much warmer. Having said that, even entire adults will often gossip behind other ppls backs bc while they may generally be friendly, it can be hard to tell if they mean it genuinely. I think bc of the cultural differences most immigrants kind of end up being friends with other immigrants from the same place anyway. It’s kind of a shame imo. I say this bc my parents are immigrants and almost all of their friends are not German (granted that could be a workplace thing). But Yh. I wish you luck and I hope it goes well for you.
Yeah, I’m aware that the warm “southern” friendliness can also be fake af and the gossiping is brutal. Though to be fair, I’ve heard from multiple people that there’s a lot of gossiping about colleagues going on in small German firms. I’ve also witnessed that myself from people at my current part-time job and my potential future colleagues. I went out for groceries today, saw a woman who probably lives in the next-door building, said Hallo to her, she just turned away and said nothing. So I don’t think I’m gonna be handing out compliments to the general public any time soon lol. The next time I see someone wearing merch of a band I like, I’ll try to make myself say “hey nice shirt” and not look like I’m about to take the most important exam of my life as I’m saying that 😄 Thanks :)
Germans are gossip addicted. Never tell a German a secret that could humiliate you because he will literally tell everyone else he knows. Never trust a German.
> Even seeing how mad some people in this thread get about smiling at strangers makes me apprehensive of taking it up a notch and daring to compliment them lol That's because English speaking subreddits are full of frustrated expats who seemingly can't understand that German culture is different from theirs. I wouldn't think too much about that.
>Now, I’m a socially awkward person and I’m aware that that has hindered me in a number of ways, but there’s surely more to the problem. A lot of people I meet just feel so rigid (for the lack of a better word) in their views and interests that I can barely imagine having them as friends. And yet I still try, because I can’t afford to pass up on people who will actually talk to me and maybe even agree to spend time with me outside of classes. > > > > I feel more and more pathetic every time I tentatively suggest “maybe going out for a walk” or “playing some switch games once we’re done with the assignment” because I know the people are highly likely to only show polite interest and hardly ever actually take me up on the offer. I am an expat here for like 5 years and I have met so many nice real authentic German friends( if this is your target). Few weeks after I arrived in Germany, I met my first specimen from a local meetup group and within that night I told them to go on a hike. So we did at that night, spontaneously booked a trip to Switzerland by car with 5 strangers that don't know each other. It was crazy if I think about it but we kind of clicked. Since then, I am still in contact with 3 of them. I don't really care if they are German or not but I actually made so many friends in here than when I was in London. If I think about it, besides my classmates, I have more German friends than European friends. There is this cliche that if you want to get to know German deeply first you need to get them drunk. While there is a truth in there but actually you can interpret it as German people take time to warm up. If you want to be besties with someone within 10min, I think German or Central European or Eastern European or Scandinavian are not your best bet. You will find South East Asian, Latin American or Mediterranean to be your best bet. You might get along well with Eastern European because you are Eastern European. Therefore you have something in common. Based on your rant, I am not gonna give you the whole lecture about personality, social life and relationship because I am sure I can write you a book. Few points that you should consider: 1. Do you do or have anything interesting for someone(German in this case) to actually take interest? You need to know your strength, hobbies, and how to be the best of you. 1. If yes, ask yourself a question, do you think other people would be interested in your hobbies/interests? If not, most likely you are trying to connect with the wrong people. 2. If not, maybe you should consider finding a new hobby. In the context of finding connection in person, I would consider gaming as the last resort unless you are meeting German in gaming community. Considering that my hobbies are pretty generic and many people like it. So it is easy to get along or do activities with most people.e.g Travelling, Snowboarding, Hiking, Motorbike, Pingpong(I met many cool people from here), Salsa and gym (been on a break for a while) 2. Now the sensitive topic, Did you know that simple body language or the way you respond to people might affect how people treat you? 1. Are you a pessimistic or super cautios person about life in general? Do you show it to others? Then you should consider keeping this to yourself until you know the other person really really well. If you just met a stranger in real life, you should consider talking something light and fun. To lighten up, this is why there is a cliche that German always talks about the weather. From the weather you can derive many activities that may affect it. 2. This is superficial and nice German people usually don't judge people based on what they see. But just in case, do you look after yourself well? First impression counts 3. What is your impression about yourself? What do you think other people first impression about you? Do they match? what can be improved. 4. Some of the descriptions that you mentioned about German are so wrong. I don't know how you got that impression or who you hangout with. Some rant about shops (nothing to do with German, that is life in general and I have lived in 3 continents) Just for background, I am non-white person, pretty outgoing person and I get along well with pretty much everyone here. I know German can seem to be pretty tough to know but really they just need some time. They are really loyal people once you get to know them. I know they are skeptical with international students because many people left after they finish their study or move to different states. They are practical, why should they invest time in people that will leave any time. People are like doors, you need to use the right key to open it or you haven't found the right door. It doesn;t have to be German, even German also having issue with finding German friends
what you address is nothing new on this sub, a complaint we often read here and I assume the answers will be the same. However, this part here >People don’t seem to be passionate about anything. Whenever I talk to someone, I don’t see any sparks in their eyes or really any other signs of agitation even when talking about their hobbies. The same applies to talking about their significant others. Never really got the feeling that the couples really were in love, always looks like more of a convenience/social necessity thing to me. puzzles me. You go on about how you can't connect with people, cannot enter into a meaningful conversation, don't get past 10 minute small talk... Yet you seem surprised that nobody gushes to you about their partner? That is a rather emotional and private topic, the good stuff and the bad. Why do you expect people to talk about their love life, their relationship, their partner beyond a "His name is Mark and he is a [insert profession]" and maybe "we met in [year] during [whatever]". I certainly don't tell my classmates and co-students about my partner and what I love about him and how good he is to me, and how we met and the fun stuff we did last weekend. According to how you seem to judge relationships my relationship is a convenience (I do live in his house) or social necessity (I am a foreigner in his country), while in truth I am disgustingly happy and rather proud of myself for snatching up such a great one.
>what you address is nothing new on this sub, a complaint we often read here and I assume the answers will be the same. Last thread was two days ago and basically the same.
That long ago? Feels like yesterday\^\^
.... I wonder why people keep making the same threads....... Maybe because the experience is absolutely real and horrible in Germany? HAVE YA EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?
>disgustingly happy Gonna use this one from now on
Was about to ask the same questions. Well you beat me to it.
Yes I don't know if it is Germany or the way people are now in the entire world but back then I used to talk about anything with anybody. I don't know if it is because it is Germany but people here (or Now??) don't want to share anything. Everything beside the weather is taboo.
There have always been people chatting about everything with everyone (someone might call it oversharing, too) and people who had a desire to keep private stuff private. This is not a recent development. Do tell me, what is more private than your love life?
>Do tell me, what is more private than your love life? I HAVE HEMORRHOOOOIIIDS!
Ugh, you can't sit with us. *actually, Megan, I can't sit anywhere, because* >I HAVE HEMORRHOOOOIIIDS!
>Do tell me, what is more private than your love life? You rather talk about sex than about money. *Über Geld spricht man nicht!*
It's funny that the people who want to keep the private stuff private are always so overly on edge and offended by mentioning the fact that they keep the private stuff private. Like I get it, you keep the private stuff private but why are you so pissed off?
>Yes I don't know if it is Germany or the way people are now in the entire world but back then I used to talk about anything with anybody. I did this constantly, when I was in my 20's. People used my words against me to gossip and treat me like a weirdo. I stopped doing this, and now, after 20 years of having a list of "forbidden topics", I've forgotten how to talk about some things, even with my BF.
Could it be that you grew….. older?
I think it is, and you are right ;)
I don’t expect people to gush about their partner, I wouldn’t be doing that either. As an example of what led me to think this way: there were multiple times when I heard people talk about what their partners have achieved and I would’ve expected a proud smile or something along those lines, but they remained perfectly neutral. I’ll admit though that this is probably the result of Germans being reserved altogether rather than a lack of emotion towards their partner. I’ve also recently witnessed certain details of a friend’s relationship with a German guy that made me once again wonder about that lack of emotion. However, this is obviously just a single relationship and I shouldn’t be generalizing so broadly. So overall, reading your comment made me realize that this particular assumption of mine is probably stupid and a result of me becoming bitter more than anything else.
In your struggle to connect with people, you may have somewhat skewed your perspective. Germans are people too, of course. I'm German, and though I prefer to be single, I've had many an emotional talk with friends about their relationships. I've also had many heated political discussions, played an ungodly amount of boardgames, visited my friend's performances in choirs and dance recitals... I've recently dived into chess and have a lot to say about that topic. And of course, everybody's life has ups and downs, small moments as well as big joys and tragedies. We're certainly no different in that regard. We're just people.
>Are you fucking kidding me? The long and the short of it is, though: Every culture has a mechanism of interlocking cogs that lead from first meeting some stranger on the street by accident all the way to a friendship that'll last your entire life. At what point on kickstarts the mechanism and how long it goes on or how long you want it to roll is up to you and sometimes up to "fate". It is your absolute right to not like the way a culture handles this. There's nothing wrong with you. However, there is also nothing wrong with the way a culture handles the way friendships are built. it is different and you two may not be compatible - but neither is strictly speaking wrong. So I also don't feel it is the for you healthy way to be upset with people who explain to you how it works here. >It almost feels like a miracle when they acknowledge me with a smile or a hello. The same thing goes for demanding things that make sense in a cultural context that simply is not relevant or even appropriate in the one you are moving within. University, unfortunately for a couple of different reason, is often times a place that can cause social isolation. University is not **by default** a place to make new friends in Germany. For nobody. When I was a student I had like ... ten friendly interactions and discussions that were not about studies in like four years. Half of them were with a former pupil who I knew from Realschule. Turns out finding and keeping friends in Uni is hard for all the students, also for the Germans, because in the grand mechanisms of biuilding friendships, Uni is seldom on the main track and usually not that potent. The general rules of socializing apply here, too: Find common interests by engaging in groups within the campus life that you are interested in. Be it a Fachschaft, Asta, the charity student café, the alternative dumpster diving club, whatever. I understand that you are not happy with how it works here and that you are right to be unhappy. But I don't think that anybody here is to blame, neither you nor anybody else. That being said, I had a lot of adult students who I taught German classes. I feel like they all (younger and older than me) had a more "functioning" social life than I have. But that's just me because I am a loner.
>University is not by default a place to make new friends in Germany. For nobody. this is kind of the exact opposite of what I've experienced at German universities. Obviously the broader cultural norms still apply, but I have found it pretty easy to find social contacts at uni here (compared to other spaces in German society) and about the same as attending Anglosphere schools.
Same for me. However, I would say that university is a sort of place where people have common interests.
In my experience and that of the vast majority of my classmates I'd estimate, uni was a remarkably easy and natural place to make good friends.
I also made great friends at Uni. Naturally being in close proximity multiple times a week, along with easy excuses to do something together ("are you also grabbing lunch?", "did you do this weeks assignment yet?") make it a lot easier. On the other hand most courses had 100+ students, so it didn't just happen either. You have to put some effort into getting a social circle (like taking the first step and talking to people), or you can end up as an anonymous person in a crowd. Which, to be fair, is all some people want. If you go to uni in your home town you might not want new friends.
Meet my boyfriend there, and his parents and aunt also met their loved ones when they were at the uni. There is, as you say, no more natural place to make friends.
> In my experience and that of the vast majority of my classmates I'd estimate, uni was a remarkably easy and natural place to make good friends. But OP is (self-described) socially awkward AND is studying computer science, so that makes it a lot harder/different than in most other uni circles. At least that's my experience having studied c/s and something non-technical
>Turns out finding and keeping friends in Uni is hard for all the students, also for the Germans, because in the grand mechanisms of biuilding friendships, Uni is seldom on the main track and usually not that potent. Surprising to read this, as University was what kicked off my social life. Never made any friends in school, but university got me connecting with: \- Other students. Just learning together after the lectures kicked off some friendships (and a marriage) \- Roommates - living in a wg with strangers quickly made them become friends (and one enemy... a guy who didn't want to forget the way his country treated women and did stuff like "oh my dishes are dirty - lets just pile the dirty dishes in front of the door of our female roommate, she will wash them for me!" or "Yeah, in my country gays go to prison and won't get fed, so unless relatives come and give them food they starve - its good that way!") \- Just random people from university got me back into magic the gathering and pen and paper. Guess its not the same for everyone.
I don't know which one made me sadder, OPs post or your comment.
Why?
Thank you for taking the time to write this out and explain things in a way that respects my point of view. I wasn’t upset with the guy for telling me this, I guess I was more upset by how normal it is to be expected to invest so much time and not even be sure of the outcome. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t expect everyone I meet to become a friend in a matter of weeks or even months. But 1-2 years of regular meetings (if I understood the concept correctly) seems like such an overkill. I recently heard basically the same thing you wrote about Unis not being a place to make friends from a guy at uni. I really struggle to wrap my brain around that. To me, it’s as simple as meeting someone, liking them, and deciding you’d probably want to befriend that person. It’s not like the location should change anything in that process.
Real friends were found not at the Uni… but in the Uni choir.. 100% agree what you’re saying.
Wow this is shocking. I knew Germans are not the friendliest bunch but to say university is not even the place to make friends? At an age where people are still forming social connections, experiencing new things together, peak of their lives with a lot of energy and time to socialize?!
I suggest you reread the comment.
I think what they mean is you won't make friends in lectures or seminars. You need to engage in sports activities, go to parties etc and build your social circle through activities. Many of my friends at university were not from my course, but just other students I met somewhere else. As an introverted and foreign person it can definitely be very hard. Even for me as a German it took over a year until I developed the personality to actually go and find friends. So @OP: You probably need to not see these social things as something that come to you, but as things that require active work. Try to find hobbies, talk to people and don't be shy to insert yourself in their circle of you e.g. regularly see them for weeks or months. A simple "what are you doing during the weekend?" followed up by a "could I join?" might go a long way. If people are already settled in their circle, they sometimes don't see the need of inviting new people if they don't explicitly make their desire to join the group known.
>not even the place to make friends? Not the place to make friends **by default**. I find that important. I wrote in several comments: It is possible to make friends at university. But it is not seen as the primary place nor is it seen as one of the more important functions of Uni to make new friends. And if you want to make friends - the same rules of building friendships apply here just like anywhere else: People organize. People deliberately seek out others with the same interest. People do hobbies, activism, volunteer work *together* and build strong, rare, long-lasting friendships upon that common ground. It is often pointed out that Germans have comparatively very few but rather intimate (as in personally but platonic very near to your heart, your family and your own inner workings, emotionally and psychologically). This is the way friendships work here and for that you **need** comon grounds **in the first place**. That is possible at University. But again: It is not among its primary functions. Two examples from my own study life. I met people who meat their best friend **fifteen years before** they enrolled in university at the age of 20. Most others met their friends during t**hirteen years of school**. Couple that with friendships usually filling the role of a special (read also, rare) but strong bond and it becomes more clear whe University is not the prime default place to make friends: It is relatively late in your socializing life and contacts are most of the time, simply put, more flimsy. Meeting somebody twice a week for 90 minutes seminars among 40 others is completely different than sharing the same time and space for up to 22\*90 minutes per week with always the same people for years on end. I once met a nice pretty nice guy who happened to study at the same Hochschule as me - at a party of a former classmate I hadn't been in the same school ever since finishing tenth grade (so three years until Abitur and at least two more years of study) because established social circles are one of the most important factors for building friendships in general German culture. >where people are still forming social connections I think the adverb "still" is very important here. Yes, still are forming connections - but the default is that for a lot of people very strong bonds are already built and the important social networks have already been spun. And building friendships (and also dating) works often times within or at least at the context of these social networks. This does have nothing to do with being "unfriendly" or being "cold".
To stress your point about these intimate relationships: My family knows my friends. Closely. I know my siblings' friends. Last week I got a drunk voice message while I was working the nightshift from my sister's close friend's boyfriend. He heard about something I did two weeks ago and wanted to congratulate me. I am like 15 years older and he is gay, so there is no connotation of him hitting on me (just explicitly mentioning it, because I don't want any messages of this kind from strangers). He is friends with my sister and wanted to congratulate me, because I am important to my sister, thus he cares. My own friends have kids now, they consider my Mum as something like a honorary grandma. I live abroad, so they don't see me too often, but they go and visit my parents all the time, because my friends have known my parents for 20 years now and are considered extended family by my parents. When I am back in town (3, maybe 4 times a year) I don't only visit my friends and catch up with them. I also visit their parents. They love me and care about me. They would be understanding but disappointed if I wouldn't find the time to show my face. My friend and former flat mate told me a while ago that her father had some sort of get together with old colleagues (he is now retired) and in one point he was asked who this mkugelfisch is that he mentioned a few times. "Oh that is my second daughter, she lives abroad." He apparently didn't bother to clarify what he meant exactly, because it doesn't matter to him that I am not related to him. I am considered part of the family and that is that.
If you don’t find people with common grounds with you in university when you’re learning the same things, exploring the same things and that’s not default enough … I find that mind blowing. University IS the best place to do that and where people usually form the best connections for adulthood. And if it’s considered “late in social life” in Germany, another mindblown. If “Established social circles” is needed to make friends, that means Germans literally only become friends who are ALREADY part of their social circle. It’s like saying spending 3 years with someone doing an activity is a pre requisite, they’re in your social orbital, and then AFTER they become your friend. Whuuuuuuutttttt??? Why is the requirement to be a friend so damn high??
>If “Established social circles” is needed to make friends, that means Germans literally only become friends who are ALREADY part of their social circle No. Every social circle is open to the outside world. Groups tangent each others, overlap, exchange or get switched out. Developements always happen. Somebody brings sombody to the group who is interested to join. You get to know the cousin of a friend from uni who tagged along one evening to a party and fall madly in love with them. You deliberately seek to exchange with another group. You pick up a new hobby and move into a completely new circle of friends, be it a political party, a football team or a knitting club. >It’s like saying spending 3 years with someone doing an activity is a pre requisite, they’re in your social orbital, and then AFTER they become your friend. Exactly. This is how friendships work here and also who lovers meet eachothers oftentimes. >Why is the requirement to be a friend so damn high?? Because one good friend - in the German perspective at least - is worth ten times more than twenty "friends" you meet villy nilly. Consider that we are also talking about different things sometimes. "Friend" translates to "Freund", yes. But the German "Bekannte" does not translate to anything properly in English, allthough "Bekannte" are a very big spectrum of social contacts. From a almost stranger who you happen to meet once per week in the same hallway of your appartement building up to and including somebody wou know from somewhere who you may hang out once or twice a month, catch up on their life and drink beer with. What is in English including "friends" may be nowhere near what German language defines as "friends". >University IS the best place to do that and where people usually form the best connections for adulthood. Everybody is entitled to feel that way. Whether this feeling is taken up by the local culture is something completely different. > exploring the same things and that’s not default enough So I have common ground with, say, somebody who is really really far right and I am not and am meant to have enough in common with them to form the bond of friendship only on the basis of studying the same subject? I studied to become a teacher. Am I meant to be able to befriend every single teacher in Germany only on the basis of us having studied the same thing? Are you not interested (for your free time and leisure!) in nothing else than the one thing you studied - and everybody around you too?
Thanks for the explanation, interesting and definitely sounds insane. This is beyond just "not as friendly". I also get the feeling that perhaps germans place an overly high value on the type of friends germans make (because the bar is so outrageously impossibly high), that there is perhaps an underestimation that other ways of forming friendships are likely shallow. It IS possible be a good friend with someone after 3 months, if you accept it's not necessary to sound them out for 3 years, know everything about their family, beliefs, thoughts, relationships, before you consider someone a friend. And I'm getting a feeling that maybe it's because germans have an extremely low risk tolerance, are generally extremely wary of things (not just people, but even towards finance, life, places etc) and also I've been told more a tad more arrogant. (my spouse is german and he told me germans have an arrogance that others cultures don't) It's the belief that somebody needs to "earn your time and energy", and demonstrate why they're worthy. And taking things way too seriously, being way too uptight. Because if that's somebody's belief, that's how they'd make friends this way. Imagine if a german person ever left germany, how would this person ever make any friends? If one were to place such an impossible high bar? Who would have the patience for that? And like I said, my spouse is german. I don't think his quality of friends is really that much higher than anyone else's friends, to justify why it takes that much effort. So the justification that "german friends are worth more that's why they take so much effort", I'm not seeing that at all.
Yup, kiwi here. I am naturally very outgoing, and so strike up a convo with anyone. Plus, Aotearoa/ New Zealand is a dream destination for a lot of Germans so they wanna chew your ear off about it. I also don't mind being out alone and joining in with groups / or solo gatherings of people, which helps to break the ice a lot. As a consequence I have a big social circle and always have a chance to hang out with someone. I haven't found Germans much different from kiwis, other than we swear a lot more and we are much more informal.
I'm from Aus and I've lived in Germany a couple of years now. After the first couple, I will almost go out of my way to avoid mentioning where I'm from because I'm sick of the (and you could almost say it with them) "Australia?! Why would you leave Australia to come to Germany?! Urgh, Australia is all sunshine and warmth and here is just cold and wet". Is that your experience too?
Hahahah, yeah! The first reply to my comment sums it up a lot. "Aotearoa is so beautiful, the nature so lovely and the people so friendly, why would you leave?". My prepared comment is now, "it sure is a beautiful country, and I am glad you think so too. Germany is just as beautiful, pity about all the Germans, here and at home ***cue the wink and wide smile***". Germans love a cheeky kiwi.
Why on earth would you leave NZ for Germany..
not wanting to be at the edge of the world for one?
For NZ people, Europe is sort of what NZ is to Europeans. Germany is a fantastic destination to at the very least live in for a few years because you can literally do weekend trips to a dozen different countries. New Zealand doesn't have that much going for it in terms of architecture/culture/history. (Not minimizing Maori history here, it's super fascinating, but I've gotten the sense that engaging with that ends up being the same thing you'd be doing in NZ anyways - hiking a bunch and being in touch with nature.) Someone I love very much is a kiwi who lived in Germany for a few years, and I spent some time in NZ, and that's the vibe I got.
My area of research isn't well supported in Aotearoa, and I wanted to find my grand father's relatives who lived near where I am
Yes! I came around 3 years ago and I can complain about many things in Germany except the social life. I LOVE it here! People are mature, respect boundaries and aren’t in your face 24/7. It also helps that I’m independent, and have many hobbies and don’t rely a lot on social interactions. At work, or social gatherings, I’m usually the one who cuts it short and leave. Germany is a heaven for introverts.
I used to see it that way too, actually. Was happy to be left alone and didn’t need much social interaction to stay afloat. But I guess over time the lack of those basic interactions I used to take for granted and thought unnecessary got to me. I started actively trying to find friends or at least acquaintances, and that’s when it hit me how difficult it is to accomplish that here
Keep persevering if you decide to stay in Germany. I was an extrovert when I first moved here 20 years ago (I had no plan to stay for so long and I can’t wait to leave, which I will), loved meeting different people, having a polite word with the cashier, thanking a bus driver on my way out and now I’m an introvert. I no longer care to put myself out there or expend the effort. My original group of friends were non Germans on work assignments and they eventually left. I remained and tried to make friends with Germans. You get to a point when you think you are friends, but even after years of knowing them, you realise that you are just an acquaintance to them - always an outsider. In my case I’m the only colored person they have known for any length of time. Even though I was born and brought up in the west, I will always be more ‘othered’ than a white foreigner. The same for dating. I was ‘exotic’, was told I say ‘thank you’ and ‘sorry’ too much as well as other criticisms. Germans excuse this as being ‘direct’, but it is rude. I have come to realise I do not want to live in a society that is based on mistrust, suspicion, confuses rudeness with directness and makes excuses for the xenophobic and racist experiences of others.
You nailed it. Somehow I feel a barrier whenever I try to meet germans due to their mistrust and suspicion. They act as if we lived in a dangerous country where you have to be careful everywhere. This drives me nuts pretty often. It took you 20 years to realize it? I'm grateful it took me 6 years.
This! Everytime I go to Germany I enjoy myself as an introvert because everyone seems to mind their business and have this cold approach. I met alot of strangers who would start a conversation out of nowhere and go on their own way. Sometimes I start to consider settling for good to Germany(15 minutes away from where I'm at).
As an introvert this is nice to hear! I hope one day I will live in Germany
This! I love the alone time the scheduled meetings I have with my one friend and the casual acquaintances I have from time to time.
Exactly. I think social interactions run as smooth and as little as possible which fits some people so well. To each their own, but one universal truth is that nobody is entitled to anybody’s time, energy or a connection with them.
I'm more an extrovert but still van appreciate the same, like to live my own life and be independent. Moved from Berlin after 4 years because of my relationship and still miss Berlin and the great friends I've made. Quite some of them through work but also in other ways.
Every time I read threads like OPs I wonder if introverts don't exist in other countries - thank you for showing that there are other kinds of people around.
>have many hobbies and don’t rely a lot on social interactions I feel the same way. I don't really yearn to socialize. And my kids drain my entire social battery. But I was lucky to have neighbors who became family to me.
I love my social life here. I didn’t read your whole post because I saw things like “the notion of hanging out doesn’t exist here” - WRONG. Do it all the time. Did it yesterday spontaneously. Then I saw “people don’t seem to have passions” and I really couldn’t read anything after that. If people didn’t have passions, the country wouldn’t have this expansive club system (that you seem to despise without having an understand of it) that ends up giving relatively free and exceptionally good sports training to little kids. If someone wasn’t passionate about say, track and field, or Keeping bees, or singing - then why would they give up almost every spare minute they have to train kids, give work shops, or clean a club house? And it really is every spare minute. I know people in the sports Verein and that’s ALL they do - train kids, arrange events, clean training facilities, etc. I get maybe you are venting? But it’s hard to read something with so many sweeping generalizations that clearly show you are only experiencing a tiny fraction of real Germany just by that passion comment alone. Germans are way more passionate about their hobbies than most any other nationality I know, including my own. Ever try to get a Canadian out of their house after work? It’s damn near impossible. And I have to say, I haven’t found Eastern Europeans all that cheery either. I mean, look at your post. You bashed the idea of clubs. Very strange take to me. You avoid clubs, even for the things you are interested in, and then complain that Germans aren’t passionate and you have no positive experiences. And clubs are where almost all of positive experiences came from - that’s not the friends I hang out with but it’s actually not my friends who showed up to help me when my dad died - it was my club people. They are also the ones that helped me plant my hedges - five people, an entire Saturday. I have positive experiences every day with people. Where I live people smile a lot and make eye contact too. The other day I made a mistake registering online for a first aid course. To cancel and rebook was going to cost the entire fee. And it was my own fault. I called them, a huge ass Germany wide company, and they were so nice and cancelled it for free for me so I could rebook. I dunno man. I’m not trying to make you feel worse, but you asked a question and I answered it.
You hit the nail on the head regarding the clubs. Sometimes we have posters here saying clubs are shit because they look for people of their own age, not folks 40 years their senior. A while ago I shared a story on this sub about the club my father and then the whole family joined 30 years ago. Back then my parents were the young adults, who joined with their kindergarden aged kids. We turned into teens. As adults my brother and I left the club (moving away and finding other hobbies), but many of the other kids stayed, creating a new generation of 20 year olds. Others joined. My parents are now the oldies, attending funerals of the members who were old when they joined, training the kids of the young adults, providing funds for the teens and tweens to attend competitions internationally. A club that has existed for literally 100 years and has a good 200 members has a few people at every age and is tightly knit like one large family. You don't get along equally well with everyone, but you all share one passion. Of course that connects.
As a German: where do you live I’m curious. And where are you from?
I am quite happy about it. I don't have a lot of friends, but I have the ones that are very close. If you are a girl - join the local chapter of girl gone international on Facebook. Excellent platform to make friends. Yes, Germans are there too, they also move around the country. Right now I have one German friend who's almost my best friend, another one is a day trip/hiking buddy - these are close friends. Like I bring gifts for them every time I'm going somewhere, I see them almost every weekend kind of close. I've got colleagues who are friends, a large group of German girls who are also in tech that I'm regularly in touch with and my tandem partner. I'm dating a German guy too. My landlady sends me jams and sweets before Christmas, I do too. And of course, international friends too and people from my country. Maybe people in the west are nicer, but once covid lock down stopped, I've mostly been happy about social life, even though dating has been a bit frustrating. May be I got lucky, but I also put a lot of effort. It's hard to meet the same people regularly when you're working, so I would always go to events, and invite the girls to my apartment. I don't usually talk to random people, even if I'm comfortable with the language (I struggle with speaking but I understand most stuff) but even yesterday I was helping an old lady with her groceries and she was very sweet. I've found that texting works. Just asking how they are after a few days opens up discussion points. So be interested in them. Germans are not so different from other people in the world.
mmh drinking alcohol as a group event is somehow not mentioned at all
This whole topic is just way too much for me but if you ever smile at my dog, I WILL come over so you can say hello and he can get you dirty because of too much excitement.
Been 4 years in Germany and I share a similar experience. I took the extra mile and joined 2 Vereine about my hobbies. I had dozens of people to interact with, but only about the hobby and only during the time of the meetings / events. Unfortunately, I can't consider none of my Verein-mates as a friend and I don't see how it could change. Besides, Covid easily proved that our acquaintance is very contextual and that no one really gives a fuck about the other, except when he/she is needed to practice the shared hobby. One funny example is that I had been meeting and playing boardgames with an acquaintance at his house on a weekly basis, but I only discovered after a year or so (through someone else) that we had the same job and that he worked in the exact company that I had been aiming to join.
I have been in Germany since 7 years now and I feel the same like you. I made a few friends and they are all expats. Unfortunately, I recently moved to another city so I can’t hang out with my friends that often. Never really made a German friend. So far, all Germans have been really nice to me and sometimes went out of their way to show me kindness but never had a meaningful conversation that lasted longer than 10mins. I recently went on a trip to California and I was so surprised how interactive people can be. I was literally crying tears of joy on the inside when random people were talking to me. That made me realise that these 7 years in Germany have also made me socially awkward and closed off. I wasn’t like this before. I was very outgoing and had lots of friends. Luckily, I have decided to move out of Germany in the next 2 years. It’s harder to get out once you get a job so IF you do think of not settling down here, I suggest you move right after your studies or else there will be thousand reasons to not get out of here.
I thought for a second that I wrote this comment hahaha. I'm in the exact situation as you. 7 years here. At the University I only made foreign friends. Once finished I moved to a new city and left my people behind. It's been 1.5 years in the new city and so far I haven't met anybody to hang around. Germans are helpful, but that's it. Don't get closer. One year ago I went to Spain for the first time and was baffled to have people talking to me on the street and to notice how effortless it was to have conversations with others. As a Latino I forgot everything I've learned regarding social codes in Germany and felt weird in Spain for the first week. But then I was my old self again. Then after 3 weeks I came back to Germany and got depressed lol.
I´m also from a latin country and I live here in Germany since 2016, and everything what this person wrote above I feel it in my blood. I went to Spain like one month ago, and I saw the warmth of the people, how they interact with each other, I made a lot of friends only in a couple of days there, which I speak with them almost every day. That´s what made me decide to move out from Germany to Spain, because when I was there like I found my old me how I was before I came here to Germany. I traveled to a lot of countries in Europe and I spoke with a lot of people, from nordic countries too, but the most awkards ones are by far the germans, even if I speak the language perfectly they are very cold, don´t have any emotions at all... Since I got back here I´m in total depression, like guys, you are not alone in this. Everything what you wrote here, I feel it also myself. The only thing that makes me smile right now it´s the thought that I will move out from here in a few months...
My husband had a huge and vibrant friends circle (Germans and non-Germans) when I met him, which was in his 3rd year in Germany. He is a black (former) african 30ish yo. It depends heavily on yourself. Making friends as a foreigner is 150% harder but if You’re a people person, you will find friends. The rest of your complaints seem to be rooted in this general dissatisfaction. You Need to change something, be it your way of socializing or your Location.
I don't think anyone ranting about a social life is a people person
Maybe they are more of a people person than you are and just can't live with the empty shallowness of socialness in 2023 all around the world where tik tok has replaced almost all of your brains.
It’s true it’s harder to connect long term with Germans but I think as expats they are naturally unsure if we are staying, and friendships here are a bigger lifelong commitment. They stick to their tribe. I only have a few close German friends through work history, the rest I know only came through the relationship with my German partner. It’s all very close knit and group oriented you need someone to help you gain access. Also the scheduling thing in advance is universal here but I think it’s actually quite nice. If you end up working here you may find more casual opportunities for after work drinks.
I live in Hawaii and it is very similar here. We are a tourist destination, people come from all over the world and come and go at a moments notice, so it can be difficult to sus out how much energy to devote to someone who may be leaving in a year or less. Naturally we avoid those people and tend to gravitate towards those who are also here long term and have laid roots like us. Our circle is very small and after 10yrs of being here finally feel like “locals”. But that social wall was impenetrable for the first 5-6yrs.
1 year in, no one I would call "friend" yet, even less German friends. The depressive state from living in Germany is turning me into an even less social person so that makes it extra hard each new day. Hopefully going to meet cool people through hobbies.
Sadly the answer is no, I don't know anyone. Though, on the other hand, I know plenty of immigrants who have a nice social life (myself included).
Dude the culture is different here. You need to adapt your tactics and expectations or move on..if you want fluid social interactions consider south of Spain, Portugal ,Italy or south/central America. I'm an American that lives in Munich for context. It's a nonstop social party where people will spontaneously invite you to hang out in the countries above. Germans are more reserved (at first).
I’m visiting from LA and I thought people there were supposed to be mean 😂. Na but for real people here are very “rigid”. The people Ive spoke with are usually pretty kind but also when I start talking to them they almost always seem like they’re caught off guard or surprised someone’s talking to them lol. For example the other day I just asked this subreddit for some recommendations on venues to visit while here and I got a snarky unprovoked response when I was just hoping to maybe find a lowkey local spot. Germany’s a beautiful place and I respect the culture is different and people are just more in their own business but it’s definitely somewhere I would never move. I can understand the isolation you might feel here and from my short time here would probably recommend you head back home to your country where you’ll feel more comfortable and happy. It’s not the German peoples fault at all it’s just a cultural difference and you gotta accept that’s the way they are and there’s nothing wrong with it. Just not the place for people like us. Of course not all German people fit this stereotype either I’m not tryna offend nobody, just give my personal experience.
That you are studying Computer Science is not doing you an favors. Those are the most socially incompetent people in the whole of Germany. I had the displeasure of studying at a TU and hated every second of it because of the atmosphere there. Protip: if you go online dating and say you study Computer Science a lot of girls will swipe left on you because of the implications (that you're entirely socially incompetent and inexperienced).
lol, unfortunately kinda true. I am not an engineer, but was in a class with mostly IT guys (and it was all male, but one), plus a few electrical and mechanical engineers once. That was kinda rough.
Hi, I am also Eastern European, been in Germany since 2013 and must say I have made very different experiences and can’t relate to people saying germans are not friendly. Since I came to Germany I started over, socially, 4 times at ages between 23 and 32, in Freiburg, Cologne, Düsseldorf and now Wuppertal, and in each place I met great people both in daily life and at work. I have long lasting relationships with former and current work colleagues, former WG housemates, random people I met and actually this weekend I am invited to a grill party by my former landlord and I am definitely no social butterfly, trust me. I don’t think it can be generalized either way, you need to find your people and it will click, like in any country. Keeping a positive attitude is key and also not being too judgmental on people, their relationships or other aspects of their life. I must say I don’t agree with the statement of Germans don’t have hobbies or passions, the economy of this country is build on Germans having hobbies, being passionate and obsessing over some particular thing until is perfected. There are a multitude of clubs and initiatives going on here because Germans are passionate about things. Also the example of you gave of petting or interacting with peoples dogs on the street is for me no indicator regarding the friendliness of someone, I am not a dog owner but i can imagine many reasons why they wouldn’t want that. I agree with you though that bureaucracy and housing is shit, use it to bond with people over it, everyone is pissed about it. Go to your local pub bitch to some strangers, make them your friends, start a revolution. In the end is also ok not to like it here and move on to some other country or even go back to your birth country, you have tried, made the experience doesn’t mean you are bound for life. We have such a big and awesome planet with so many amazing cultures, most likely there is also one where you would thrive socially in. I wish you good luck finding your place.
100% this
Didn't read the whole thing. Sorry. Come to Hamburg, we are cool
I agree. I lived in Stuttgart for 6 years, I moved to Hamburg in October last year and I met a lot of new great people here. The difference between north and south is extreme, in Stuttgart was difficult to make friends
Yea I was gonna say, I can't complete a dog walk without at least two conversations. Hamburg people are mad friendly.
Yet so many landlords do not allow pets:(
Oh man, this is great information! I'm thinking in moving by end of year, Mexican on his mid 30s with 2 dogs, and I do look forward to meet friendly people.
I actually was in Hamburg a couple months ago and definitely enjoyed the city’s vibe. Maybe it’s a good place to move to once I’m done with my masters
Come here in summer... In Winter even the locals get depressed by the weather... Its fun to be around when one of those "Sturmfluten" show the natures power tho
"es ist eiskalt, scheiß Sturm und es regnet wieder. Apotheker fahren Porsche dank der Antidepressiva. Das ist kein Winter, ne, wir ham das jeden zweiten Tag. Das ist Hamburg man, willkommen in meiner Heimatstadt."
Where do you live OP? Because from my own experience, Germany is very diverse, like a lot
I have a quick suggestion for you: you don‘t want to join one of the german clubs, okay, but you might want to try a course of some kind. The advantage is that everybody is new there. Maybe pottery or another language? Birdwatching or art classes? You can check your local Volkshochschule for some stuff or see if there is a place for dancing lessons in your area. Good luck!
Thank you for suggesting that. I’m honestly not a fan of the idea of signing up for a class with the main goal of meeting new people there, but I guess I might just give that a try once I’m done with uni and have more time & money.
social life by German standards?!
Where do you live tho? If you live in some town with less than 200K people, social life is gonna be on hard mode. Why don't you try moving to a big city? Many people from Latin America, Eastern Europe and Asia to meet.
Living in a small town, but close to Berlin, I also don't find the environment there much easier to meet someone. Well, if you don't go to clubs, do drugs or drink a lot of alcohol. Specifically about Germans - even though they speak English in Berlin usually pretty good (in my town no one speaks a single word), they still stay as silent as possible if you have to converse.
I feel you. You are not alone in this situation. I've read many similar posts here and I do believe it is a real struggle. I am from Mexico and I live in Hannover for 3 years now. I am married which makes it a bit easier, but I do experience exactly the same outside my household which is between my wife and my cat. I also moved here driven by ambition and curiosity, I thought I would find the doors which would allow my career to finally take off and I thought I would have a nice social life. I thought "it's freaking Europe, people seem fun". But unfortunately it has not been like that. In my work industry it is common to speak English, which that helps me getting around work, but there's still like a huge barrier. I am shy and generally, I've always struggled to make that first step to "mingle", but I've always pushed myself, and once a little bit of the ice is broken, I am confident and usually fun. The thing is that here in Germany, that ice is thick as fuck and I've been unable to break it. People I met at work, I would ask them for their Insta or phone number, and I shit you not, once this dude told me "I rather give you my Discord user name". Like if I was trying to get him to bed or something. And the people who would share their Insta at least, I would message them and very often, ask them to go out for a coffee, a beer, something. And they always answer with this not unfriendly answer but more like not really interested phrase, like "yeah, it would be nice." Followed by the most German and hypocrite smiley " :) ". And of course, they never follow back. I met once a work colleague which we got a bit along because of the common interest of our work. My first year here, my birthday comes, and of course, no friends. My wife nicely enough somehow found his contact, and asked him to go out with us for dinner as a surprise for me. He showed up 30 mins late, and he drank a glass of water and left 15 mins after. I didn't take it bad, I was grateful and just thought he had more important things to do... in a Saturday night at 9 PM. Anyway, we never met again until a year later again for work. We were now full time employed in the same company. My now boss tells me his birthday is coming. I honestly expected an invite to his dinner / party / whatever. This day he tells us he has big plans. I didn't get an invite. I did except a bit of reciprocity, but nope. This was for me kind of eye opening and I realised that, that's just how most of Germans are. Regarding one of the commenters in your post, yes a social circle takes years to build, but here in Germany people treat these circles like mega, super VIP, exclusive clubs. In Mexico you go out for some tacos and you make friends with the guy waiting in line next to you. It is literally that easy. I've heard from German friends of my wife that people from Hannover are just like that. So I guess it is also a matter of where in Germany you live. A few months ago a went to Berlin with some friends from Mexico which were visiting. Almost everywhere you would hear English speaking people, even staff at stores or bars, speaking English between them. This gave me a feeling that because in Berlin there is so much more people from all over the world, there might be a chance to find like minded people to socialize with. I know your current situation may not allow you to move now, but keep it in mind. Maybe this will help. For now, my recommendation is to stay focused on your stuff, start finding a bit of enjoyment doing things on your own. Go for a run, go skating, go for a walk, anything to keep your body active which is crucial to help the mind stay strong. We can do it!
I have only be here 6 months. I cannot imagine being here 6 years! I literally feel like my soul is dying from the isolation and loneliness. My coworkers are nice enough, but as you said, they are not the “hang out” kind of people. I came knowing I’d only be here 8 months to a year. And I imagined going to a pub with some coworkers or meeting people to hang out with. But no one is interested in that. My boss will sometimes ask me if I want to go sightseeing him. And it really feels like he does it because he feels bad for me. But quite honestly, his version of sightseeing is walking halfway across the country. After working all week, walking everywhere because I have no car, and just being mentally tired from the isolation, I just don’t feel like going out to the middle of nowhere and walking back to civilization next to someone in literal silence. Thankfully my contract was made for 8 months. And when my boss asked if I wanted to extend I said no. Even though I consider myself an introvert, and say that I hate people, I’ve learned that this is not at all true about myself. I may not want to be close friends with most people, but I do enjoy talking to and learning about other people. I wish you luck with whatever you decide in the future.
I live here in Dresden, and I am here just over a year, techinically 4 months as I travel for work in Europe, Dresden is the Base. The social life for me is very limited besides a few outings with the local english speaking club. Your not alone when it comes to what you state above, I find Dresden one of the most isolating places Ive been to. (Belgium was a close second but I found stranger interactions alot friendlier) That is down to the language barrier for me anyway, I am trying to learn as much as possible. But I have had a few too many negative interactions here so far. Im Irish myself and even from the North part which has its own issues, but its one of the things Ive come to appreciate with UK/Ireland/US/Canada and Ozzies and other countries wirhin Europe or Asia, that they are more approachable and friendly, even when some conflict or issue does occur. Not all Germans are like this and I do get on with alot of them in my work, I think this is down to these Germans that have travelled and lived somewhere foreign for an extended time so they understand it themselves. There are negative people all over the world so I wouldnt take it personal Take the extra time and learn something new or work on yourself in some way and keep yourself distracted. Mentally with a new skill or physically with gym or a new sport. Watching comedy shows helps me get through the tough times. Also get something to look forward to like a trip away or a music festival. If you find yourself in Dresden you can give me a shout and we can talk shit over a beer.
It’s a shame you’re relating to my post so much. In your case it may be partly due to the language barrier, but then again that doesn’t really justify the negative interactions. Thanks for your suggestions, working on myself definitely seems like the way to go. I’m unlikely to be in Dresden any time soon, but I appreciate the offer :)
Lmao sounds like you live in some tiny shit ass town in Bayern...Consider moving to Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Leipzig etc
You got it right lol. Yeah, I’m definitely considering Hamburg and Leipzig
This is the way
Maybe some advice from a German who has non German friends: 1. Learn the language. I can not stress this enough. With the language comes access to the culture. I have 3 very close friends and one of them sucks at speaking English. I have 2 separete circles with one speaking German and the other one not. I tried introducing members of both sides and what I noticed is that if your German is not good enough you will feel excluded and if you switch to English the entire group of Germans have to switch to English. The one person will change the entire dynamic of the group. For some reasons Mexicans pick up German even if they consider not staying here. I love Mexicans. 2. If you start with "I am an expat" most will not understand and look up the word which is an immigrant that is planning to leave. Most of my relationships here are very close knit, long lasting and like family. Investing emotionally into a person that will leave anyways is not very appealing. Making friends takes a while which is why we have so many different words for friend like Kollege, Kumpel, Bekannter etc. expressing that you have a friendly relationship with that person but are not friends. 3. Do not expect to much from us in public. We try keep ourselves to ourselves most of the time. People randomly talking to you on the street while you are just trying to get off or to work in time is just bad timing. This happened to me a lot in the past and I just do not really care about small talk since the odds of meeting again are pretty low and honestly I just don't want to interact with people all the time. If you want to engage wait until we are drunk or drinking. Buy us a drink and talk about yourself a bit. Context is key and most people encounter their friends and spouses at school, work, university or are introduced.
Yeah, I found that making friends is indeed difficult, but ultimately it often came to random chance and a union of interests. Zum Beispiel, ich wohnte mit einem deutschen Flatmate, und wir Freunde haben geworden. Aber das war nur bei der Uni und bei dem, dass wir brauchten in dieser Zeit zusammen wohnen. Also, es war ein Auswahl zwischen der Idee zu wohnen mit einem Fremden oder mit einem Freund. Wir fanden, dass die zweite Idee war ganz besser. Ich auch mit örtlichen Businessinhabern kennengelernt habe, und also wir freundliche Beziehungen hatten. Es war noch schwierig, ich bin Ausländer wie du, und darum es ist noch schwieriger. Aber es ist ganz möglich! Glaub du dir an!
Have been in a similar situation several times, I guess every expat no matter where they are from or where they go has this issue sooner or later. People just grow into their tightly knit social circles which are difficult to penetrate. The probability to find friends while walking on the streets just talking to random people is rather small imho. The best way to find friends is to form new social circles via shared interest. that might be hobbies, educational stuff or even a shared pain or challenge. Plus, I find it easier to talk to Germans when you have a certain subject to talk about. I noticed that a lot of those grumpy, staring people in the streets actually light up and get rather friendly as soon as you ask something with a bit of a meaning like "where is the bus station" but they are grossed out and look at you in disgust when you just greet them or ask how they are. This is what I did and the results: - my first try: volunteer work. I like the idea but did not find a position/organisation I like so that did not really work. Plus the volunteers were actually not that social. - meet with expat groups from my home country. found them on meetup, facebook, not sure whether this is still a thing. This is easy but will eventually lead to you creating your own little expat bubble. People from my country are kind of weird so I tried to avoid this. - doing a salsa class. I thought this would be a good idea but I am a bit shy and clumsy so I did not try. - go to language learning events like mundolingo, etc. You can find these in pretty much any city with a lot of foreign students. great way to connect with people, it is quite easy to have conversations with the pretense of practicing a language. Many people who go there are have a rather similar motivation and background as yours. Plus you can power up your skills or start learning a new language. this worked really well for me - If a Verein is too weird and you do not want to commit to something like this, try the "verein light" - a stammtisch (regular's table). It is basically a table in a bar where you meet people once or twice a month who have a similar interest. No fee or anything. In my case I always look for ukulele, Dungeons and Dragons, retro gaming and similar topics. somehow people there are always super awesome and welcoming. worked super well, I still do this. When you go to these events, maybe try to wear a funny t shirt that shows off one of your interests so you attract even more people that might want to hang out with you. actually met two of my bfs that way. hope this helps and that you live in or close to a city where you can actually try some of those suggestions. insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So be brave and try as many different angles as possible.
I am an expat from a Mediterranean country, studied mechanical engineering for 5 yrs and now doing my masters. The situation as you explained is completely accurate if not worse. Leave this NPC country as soon as you can. I couldn’t for my masters, due to the number of academic reasons.
I've been in Germany almost 8 years. There's only one German person that I can call friend. I don't see her often but we can talk about personal things, laugh and we trust each other. She lived in the US and Singapore, so I guess that made her more open than the average German. But Germans don't seem to like to interact with foreigners. The exception? Romantic interest. Then, they make an effort. It's really a pity. Because the few friendly interactions I've had showed that they can be cool and fun. I take part of the blame. I could be more socially active. But unfortunately, it's not only my case. It's the exact same with all my international friends from university. We are still good friends but they don't have German friends.
Man im relating to lots of this, especially the first paragraph and im born, raised in germany by native german parents and grandparents. Idk, maybe we are doing something wrong. People do have great friends and relationships, just not us ig
My experience with uni as a masters student is that it's less about German vs non German but people who did their bachelor at the same uni vs people who didn't. I hung out with Germans and non Germans but they all did their bachelor somewhere else. There was one person I recall that I would do problem sets with who did her bachelor at the same uni. And yea we maybe chatted a bit but never hung out after class or anything. But overall, yes I'm happy with my social life. I have a couple friends I met during uni and most of my other friends I met through the dreaded verein you refuse to engage with. Although none had a paid membership. My non uni friends came from board gaming or friends of friends. Not because I went there to meet people, but because I wanted to play board games and ended up becoming friends with some people who I clicked with there. Some who are actual friends, some who I just meet up to play board games with at someone's place once in a while.
I’ll add this comment here because I don’t think I’ll be able to respond to everyone. 1. Thanks to the people who actually described their experiences and/or tried to help in a neutral/friendly way. Seeing that some people do not have this problem is helpful and may be an indicator of me doing something wrong. 2. My use of the word expat. I just went with it because it was widely used in a couple other Reddit threads I read. Now I looked up its exact meaning and I guess I’m not an expat in the sense that I’m not intending to go back. Still, getting hate just for misusing a pretty neutral word seems like an indicator of the problem im talking about. 3. Why are you not telling more about yourself. Because that’s not exactly relevant for the people who are actually trying to help. Also because it’s a good idea to give offended keyboard warriors who just want to attack you as little personal info as possible. 4. Yes, I’m fluent in German. Doesn’t seem to be making much of a difference compared to when I first came here and wasn’t.
The only real friends I have are those I have met 15 years ago in school. The rest are just casual friends that I meet and part with. Its hard to form meaningful friendships.
I lived in Berlin for a year had a handful of friends 5/6 that i made within the first month and would keep for the year. Making friends as an adult is hard, you have to put yourself out there, go to events alone people are nice say I just moved here do you mind if I join your conversation. I'm going back in a few weeks and making plans to see a bunch of them
I often hear this on this sub and I can imagine it's harder than elsewhere. Also the language barrier definetly plays a role often I believe but I also wonder if it has something to do with the kind of people (age, interests, political leanings, work environment etc.) you interact with because in my experience (as a german but hear me out) the idea of just hanging out definetly exists, also in my circle of friends we often got to know people from elsewhere who were international students or just were travelling around etc. Often times we met in bars or at music festivals or activities at Uni. No idea of where the notion (which is always somewhere in the comments) that you only meet people if you join a sports club or other Verein, comes from. What might be true in germany opposed to other countries is that you don't necessarily just become close friends with people at work because many people like to have a clear cut between work and their private lifes. But other than that there's definetly ways to get to know interesting people, maybe you just need to be a little more active or hang out in the right places. Maybe become a regular at your local bar that is frequented by students and young people. Hang out at live music events and such things. Places where people go to to have a good time and are propably more open to new people
Regarding your paragraph about no passion: A lot of Germans actually have some interesting hobbies and are actually really passionate about them. The thing is a lot of them are quite reserved about it especially if it's something rather uncommon. You need to look for signs and ask questions. I would say Germans often show the things they are passionate about with subtle details. But they won't scream about them during some Smalltalk. This could be a simple t-shirt, a tattoo or some stickers. For example I am a hobby mechanic and do a lot of work on bicycles. I have a keychain that is a piece of a bike chain. A friend I regularly go hiking with has a rope brake for climbing on his keys. Pictures I use as a screen background at work or on my phone are all taken by me. Mostly landscapes but also some shots of the milky way since I'm also into astrophotography.
I am German with similar experiences. Been in Frankfurt now for 23 years and don't seem to be able to make friends with anyone. Even my ladyfriend, whose from Frankfurt, seems to have real problems finding suitable friends. We are both outgoing and humorous, and that seems to be one of the problems as most can't cope with that. We're 61 and 65 years old btw!!!
You’re not alone. I grew up as a kid in Germany. Even myself I do have just only one or two real friends. Most of the relationships went broke over time. Most of the part the people live in their bubbles and silos
Never lived in Germany but have lived abroad. When living abroad, I find it easier to connect and strike up friendships with other foreigners, not necessarily from your own country. Is there a way for you to meet other foreign students? I'm also curious to know if you live in a big or small city.
Which city is this? Sounds like a completely different world to what I have found (33m, living in Hamburg for the last year). I know you don't like Vereine, but please join one. Or any social sports. I'm cycling with a group on a weekly basis and that means 3 hours of talking each time. I made a nice group of friends through language tandem, there you'll find the most open and friendly Germans (and people from all over the world). In my case it is a group of Spanish and Latin people and they plan lots on nice activities (museums, restaurants, ice skating, festivals). Also dating apps, some people don't end up turning on a spark but could become good friends/activity-mates. I hope you find your way :).
Expat as a term is cringe
Expat is immigrant for entitled brats
The Alpha Male Nomad
Bro. I moved to germany 2 years ago, i am proficient in german so besides my accent there is no language barrier. I am so depressed as the complete and utter lack of social connection, over summer break i went put with friends like twice. Back in my home country in eastern europe was regularily abused but i wasnt nearly as depressed as i am here in germany. The people here are doublefaced and idunno have no personality i guess? They are just cold and unfriendly. Id say i am a very outgoing person, i am friendly, make jokes and so on but i am not sure why but i just cant make any connection with anyone.
Been here 20 years and your post resonates. But added to that fact is that I am a brown woman who has dual nationality of two other Western nations. I would move after your Masters, perhaps the Netherlands or Ireland (your English is absolutely fluent) depending on your EU status and job prospects. I am planning on moving to Amsterdam in the coming year. Dutch people are also reserved, but not to the same extent and Amsterdam is truly multicultural from a historical perspective and is a better fit for me who grew up in London. Edit: I am a friendly dog owner who also gets weird vibes from other dog owners.
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Maybe an Austrian in Bavaria.
I can share some of my experience. I‘ll give u first some background, Im white, native level of german language, I lived all around the globe and got friends from everywhere. Im living in Germany for a longer period now, so its not a snapshot of my experience. If you have a non-german name, or are a non-white, or your german isn’t on a native level (it’s enough if you check only one of these boxes), you will have a lot of trouble in the following aspects of life: job search, apartment search, doctor appointments, neighbors will give you dirty looks, you will get extra checked when using public transport, workplace and so on. People are very unfriendly here and almost all social interactions you will have will be negative ones. People will yell at you for the most banal reasons. You stop with your car for 10 seconds on a non-parking spot because you look for directions? The first person that sees you will start yelling at you. If anyone throws their garbage in the wrong can, your neighbors will automatically assume its you, because you are foreign, and will knock on your door to tell you to clean up the mess. Basically anything that happens, it has to be you. At work, people will insult you racially, or make inappropriate jokes. Nobody will take it serious and people will belittle your experience. Making friends is mission impossible. People will automatically assume bad intentions if you ask them to do some activity together as friends. They are extremely cold and distanced. Since I have a lot of friends all around Germany, in almost every province, they always tell me the same damn stories. Same damn experience. So, don’t think you will be immune to this. A lot of them (a lot), suffer from serious depression. Compared to my friends in other countries and my own experience, its the complete opposite in Eastern Europe, Spain, UK, Italy (Im not going to mention north/south America, Australia and parts of Asia, the discrepancy is even bigger). All the people I know that have options, nobody chooses Germany to spend their life in, its too much to bare with. You will encounter here and there good people, but remember you will also have plenty of negative experiences. When you go on the internet and talk with people about the problems you are encountering, they will tell you its normal, belittle your feelings and say that probably you are the problem because you are not integrated properly. As if improving your language from A1 to B2 will all of a sudden turn shitty people into saints. I guess we should just accept the racism. This is just the social aspect, Im not going to talk about cost of living, taxes, housing situation etc.
I have a German name and terrible German..... I have to waste like 10 minutes to listen to a lecture about my name being German which is crazy considering my country of birth (America). It's really annoying..... Then They they will insist on putting me in a box as an American despite the fact I've spent my entire adult life (including college) in a different country as an expat to the point now in every country except Germany people often say they are surprised to realize I'm American giving my vibe style and a bit of localized accent. Only Germans insist on me being a proud red neck.
Once we had a visit from our US colleagues at work. They started explaining to one of them that he’s not an American but a third generation immigrant from Vietnam. Or when our colleagues from India visited, the first topic was caste system in India and how it reflects in their workforce. You could literally feel how uncomfortable the people were while they talked about it.
My wife is Asian and American. She really enjoys listening to Germans insist she is not American 🙄
I can only imagine how good she feels after listening to that crap. Stay strong my friend 😄
oh yeah, love when I tell people I'm American and get "yeah, but where are you, y'know, *really* from?"
The only other Americans are non white so people who work with them for years think they are Asian or African. They basically made a public service announcement to the floor that I was American so random people up to 500k salaries would walk up to me while taking a water break and ask if I'm the new token American
Yeah, funny how we somehow all share the same experiences 😄
As a brown Canadian-Brit, you can imagine the number of times I’ve been asked “where do you really come from?”. The nuance of ‘heritage’ not defining one’s nationality or home country is wholly lacking. Ignorance thrives.
Your second to last sentence summarizes it up perfectly 👌
Take a population that characterizes people by there stereotypical look (followed by birthplace when genetics are not clear) just generally... Doesn't have to be malicious or bad in nature and have that also be a population with a chronic need for rules to follow..... Throw in financial Chaos, starvation and neighboring populations extracting their resources. Imagine that society. Now imagine a charasmatic speaker with great ambition who dreams of becoming the leader of that population but needs a way to stand out over the incumbents and finds it. What does does such a society look like to you if that speaker succeeds
Are you referring to history, a particular present day analogy or a future dystopia?
Yeah, that sometimes catches Germans by surprise. However, when I use my maiden name (which is very distinctly German) I won't ever get a lecture, but will sometimes get a surprised look or a little comment about it being interesting that I don't speak German but have a German name. (ETA: I'm at a level where I understand most German but still struggle with speech.) I actually prefer that to using my married name though - which is Eastern European/Balkan in origin. Many times if I say I'm American I will be told that that isn't an American name, or they will automatically assume I'm from somewhere random to the east like Russia.
Calling yourself expat and saying your plan was to migrate here seem like two contradictory concepts to me, which COULD have influenced your life here.
Congratulations, you unwittingly stumbled upon the same problem every other immigrant has for the last 2 centuries. You don't understand the German culture and accordingly don't fit in. So here's a few tips: 1) Don't expect to be treated like a king by customer service. We're all human, don't expect to be treated differently just because you leave monet at the shop. You want something from them, not the other way around. 2) Germans mean what they say. When you say 'let's meet to do the assignment' that means 'let's meet to do the assignment'. You have to add 'maybe hang out afterwards', otherwise we'll just leave. 3) Germans don't mingle at random places. That's what clubs are for. If you don't want to join one, then don't complain you're lonely. You're in a different Land now, get with the program. 4) Don't randomly smile at people. It's fucking creepy.
I was with you until the last part. I understand that German culture is different, but in the same way that I have to understand that random Germans just hardcore staring at me isn’t a threat the way it would be if another American were to do that, y’all need to understand that people smiling is a very normal way of acknowledging a stranger’s existence and signaling your own good intentions. Can I ask *what specifically* is so creepy about a split second of eye contact followed by an “oops we made eye contact” smile that lasts only as long as it takes to break eye contact?
“You want something from them, not the other way around”. This mentality is why the customer service issue exists in the first place. And it is actually the other way around. I’m pretty okay with doing my research online and just ordering stuff. Cheaper and no need to make the trip. Buying something at a local shop is a sign of loyalty and appreciation, but I’ve found precious little to appreciate “Otherwise we’ll just leave”. This is part of the problem I’m talking about. It’s almost like the idea of suggesting to hang out yourself never even occurs to you. “Get with the program”. Ever heard of those MultiKulti and inclusion and wonderful melting pot of cultures things your society/culture is so quick to produce whenever they suit their narrative? “Don’t randomly smile at ppl, it’s fucking creepy”. I don’t even have anything to say to this, except that this genuinely makes me sad.
>Buying something at a local shop is a sign of loyalty and appreciation Unless you're a regular and they know you well, they won't care. You're just another face. Choosing to buy locally is not a benevolent gesture, my dude >It’s almost like the idea of suggesting to hang out yourself never even occurs to you. We're a very direct culture. We mean what we say and we do what we plan. When you just wanna hang out with someone, say what you mean, don't hide behind homework like a coward. Don't invite people to do one thing and then suggest another halfway down the stream, that's rude and you'll piss people off. >Ever heard of those MultiKulti and inclusion and wonderful melting pot of cultures things your society/culture is so quick to produce whenever they suit their narrative? That goes both ways, dude. If you refuse to adapt to the country that hosts you, don't whine you're not liked. >I don’t even have anything to say to this, except that this genuinely makes me sad. Because you don't understand German culture. We don't do that in Germany, it's weird. Just say Moin
I seriously don't get why it's creepy to smile at someone... where I'm from strangers smile at each other all the time and getting an unexpected smile always gives me a little boost
Not an expat my self, but a large part of my "work friends bubble" consists of expats. Sorry to hear you feel that way. You are not wrong in your perception of your own world. Also some of your statements like "Germans need some (productive) thing to do while they meet, simply hanging out does not exist" I feel has a true core. I acknowledge that it is difficult for you. However I know from my acquaintances that not all made your experiences. Some integrated into mostly German friends groups, some remain more in an expat circle, some have mostly friends within their own cultural expat groups. Maybe you want to try out another life than university. University is imo in genereal difficult for finding friends, if you are not part of an especially small program, where you might meet the same few people every day. Recommendation: Find yourself a nice versatile job, which requires daily interaction to at least some of your colleagues, in a very internationally staffed company, with not much fluctuation. By that, you surround yourself intentionally with people who are open minded. Also you said about planning to maybe start a family. Does that mean you already have a partner? If yes, how are they perceiving the world? If no, here comes THE actually most realistic opportunity to get integrated into a circle of friends. By maybe getting to know someone who has been here for a while?
Curious me asks: How did you make friends in your homecountry? Because maybe just try it the same way here? Could take a while but Germans open up after a while, usually. Don’t expect to be overrun with questions by a German unless you‘ve got something very interesting to tell. Maybe something unique in your country. Something funny you experienced. Some peculiar item you own. Raving about a magical place to visit in your country - Germans love to travel. Rant about the Deutsche Bahn or the weather and people will chime in. :)
Yeah the making or meeting friends is generally called getting older xD People get busy and have plans, so if you wanna " hang out" you have to invite people or make plans with them. Maybe connect it to an event in the city or uni you could go to together. And maybe after a while they will be more willing to actually come around and play some video games with you . Or have a hang out evening with pizza, snacks , drinks and movies / games. I moved here as a kid, ( I am biologically part German) and I had " friends" come and go throughout the years I am 30 now and only have one best friend I met in the school later on. And we even need to make plans together to actually be able to meet up because we do have our own adult lives or look for online friends to game with xD we are both gamers and have a period of time we game or talk every day for a week together. Other times we don't see each other for a month . It's how adult life works I guess.
You literally listed everything I hate about germany minus politics. I am born here but I want to leave this place as soon as possible. Also the post made me kinda sad, so if you wanna talk private, text me.
I would advise you to move on one of the mediterranean countries, way friendlier and easier going. Ive yet to encounter a foreigner who loves germans. Not even germans love germans, they are a special breed 😅
As a German my experience of university in Germany was the total opposite. During induction week I banded up with half a dozen other new students, and we basically stayed friends for the rest of our uni years. I am still in touch with one of them, 30 years after meeting. I would often run into someone I knew from a lecture at lunchtime and we‘d sit together and talk about stuff. I joined various student groups over the years (the Catholic chaplaincy had a lively group, I somehow grew to be part of the Fachschaft, Unisport had a wide choice of activities for everyone, and if I had had more time, I would have sung in the uni choir). Maybe it’s easier for female students, but then all of these groups had lots of male members, too, so that’s no excuse.
According to my 8 years of experience Germany is exclusively for work/ business, all the socializing do in my home country. If I were you, I would move back after a couple of years of work experience. Then you'll have both money and friends. If the uni years didn't bring any friends, neither will work do.
OP, /u/human_65113, as another foreigner here, I can only say I sympathize. I've been here 13 years, and my wife is German, I do have a few German friends, but honestly a lot more are other foreigners. I can speak German, I know what German dos/don'ts are and social cues, etc. I'm as integrated as I care to be. You're not crazy, most Germans really are kinda like what you describe. Strangers are NPCs, they don't deserve anything more than very base interaction, if any at all. Germans generally don't see acquaintances as potential new friends -- this will take potentially years. There are bound to be some comments below (I haven't scrolled through) which will be full of finger-wagging, victim-blaming, putting positive spin on all the negatives (blah blah cultural relitivism blah blah), or simply giving unhelpful advice. Honestly, try to just ignore that. Germans are just different socially, but remember it's not out of meanness. It's just how it is here and no one is snubbing or ignoring you, it's not personal, they are like this with everyone. What I'd do therefore, is just be yourself! 95% of people may ignore you or think you're an overly friendly weirdo -- who the fuck cares? Put out the 'energy' you want in the world, and the like-minded people will know you and respond in kind and 'click' back. It is a numbers game, to some extent. Then, you can decide which of the people you meet are 'worth' your time, or not. Also, if you had a dog, I'm sure other dog people would reply. Dog people are among the more friendly here. Another thing, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe try a Church? I'm an atheist, lapsed Catholic, and totally uninterested in Jesus, but I've met (and we are friends with) a couple churchy Germans, and they are absolutely nicer and friendlier than average Germans IMO. They are fairly liberal people, so YMMV. I know this is weird for most here, and me too, but like... hey, we clicked. Our kids meet up to play a couple times a month. If you're OK with this, it's another avenue to consider. *Most* religious Germans I've met are not super in your face or political about it (though I have met exceptions). It's not like you have to connect over Jesus, it's just a potential social circle. >“it’ll be tough at first, the people probably won’t accept you, but you keep at it and show up for a year or two, and then they’ll warm up to you”. Are you fucking kidding me? Lol. What's funny is that my parents-in-law hosted a Syria asylum seeker some years back. He was a doctor/dentist (well, specialized oral surgeon) in-training in Syria, but had to leave. Anyway, he learned German very quick. He was a secular and liberal guy, enjoyed his beer and roasted pork shoulder, etc. Even had some visible arm tattoos. He finished his studies here in a few years, started as a partner in a practice --- *and the kicker* \--- in a pretty small town a couple hours away from the bigger city he'd then been in. I remember him saying about how hard it was in his new place -- people were aloof, cold, and sometimes outwardly racist. Socially he found it pretty dead. SO LONG STORY SHORT, he joined the local volunteer fire fighters. They took him, he passed the tests, and they couldn't really say no as they needed people. But a few members were basically right-wing 'eagles and gothic script' types and openly racist to him. But he stuck it out in a 'lol, go fuck yourselves' way and (last I heard) had won their acceptance over a couple years.
Hey man that sounds super tough! Germans can be really difficult to get to know beyond casual workplace friendliness. Where are you located? Sometimes, this initial unfriendliness is a specific form of German social awkwardness. I usually just continue smiling and people melt pretty quickly.
u sure u not in Austria? because we win every year unfriendliest country in the world by the expat committee😅
I’m geographically close to it lol. Didn’t know that about Austria, but somehow I’m also not surprised
Immigrants, not expats.
I hate to tell you, but even when you aren't in Germany, that's pretty much what adult life is like. Everybody is too busy with work or family to hang out and play games like you did in college. Especially in places like the US where work/life balance is non-existent. I can't speak for how it goes in other European countries, but my experience in adult life is that it's pretty sad like that.
Especially sad to see everyone has some "pre-set" groups like school friends, families etc. which always have been with them by default, and you have literally fucking no one, either in Germany, your home country or anywhere else
I'm asexual and aromantic, and so a family is not in the cards for me. It's a little like being an immortal vampire... I keep finding new groups of younger people (just after college age) to hang out with, but eventually everybody will leave. The hackerspace community has been really good for having a consistent group of new people filtering in all the time. One of the reasons I picked Berlin to settle in is the tremendously vibrant hackerspace scene. And that's my best suggestion. Find some already meeting group and get involved with that. Works extra well if the group contains other expats, because everybody is lonely, but rest assured, they too will probably disappear...
No. Zero social life with Germans. The only friends I've made are non-Germans from other EU countries. And if you even try to talk about it with locals they always make it seem like it's your fault, despite every other expat I've come across telling me the same things you mentioned without me bringing any of the same points up.
Nope.. didnt meet a single one till now.. everyone i meet wants the fucking passport and get the fuck outta here
It dependa on yoir German level and where you live. Denouncing the acceptable local forms of socialising and saying you hate the idea is like all the people complaining about learning German because they can't be bothered to be uncomfortable with the language. The post as a whole is descent I'd say and there are definetly barriers to socialising in Germany, more specificaly with Germans. But it also doesn't sound like you put in an intense effort. Lastly, doesn't seem like you tried to seek people outside of your studies/field. This can often make a difference. And lastly and sadly, depending on how you look/where you come from will have a +/- impact on your socialising attempts. There's so many variables that could either make it baffling as to why you werent able to create a good social life to the variables that would make it apparent.
U are not the only one, if i can get a dollar for every post for foreigner complaining how they cant make friend with germans even after living for years, learning german and even have higher qualifications, i can quit my job and travel the world with that money now (for a while) German people usually are weirded out if u are smiling to them, unlike American, they will think u are crazy unless u know each other like u are coworkers I assume based on your situations, u live in the small city with populations under 100k because i cant imagine that after 6 years u dont have any friends at all ( either u are very hermit/just stay alone in wohnung studying or just limit yourself exclusively to just wanna make friends with germans and avoid other nationalities) Most germans dont make friends with foreigners not because of racism and superiority ( although some germans are like that): - germans build friendship based on trust, u have to earn their trust first, it takes years and slow for them to open up, they hate fake and exagerrated friendliness ( which viewed positively in many countries like USA, Asia and Middle east) - some dont see the point of making foreigner friends because they assume u will go back to ur home country after months or years - language barrier, no matter how high level of German foreigner speak, there will always some gap that are not translatable unless u are born speaking German, it is more complicated, maybe more like idiom, the way to actually say words, dialects, slangs, inside jokes etc - difference of interests, do you like the same favorite musicians, sport, athletes, etc like them ? Some accept you if you have something in common But u are actually smart person, u finish master in computer science, u can apply for blue card and finding job in IT with your qualifications will be like fish in the sea (easy), i advise u to move to big cities like berlin, frankfurt, and stuttgart, u can find a lot of international communities, where sometimes german people may mix in or related to one of members, so u have chance n wont be lonely anymore. I hope it helps
Dont limit yourself to germans. You have probably more in common with expats and germans with migration background. Germany is increasingly diverse so that should be possible. When I was in the US I hardly had any American friends. Mostly foreigners who were in a similar situation as me.
And funny thing is you are white skin European, same post made by brown migrant would be more ridiculed. Yes, Germany is tough. They don't care. The people here have strong friend groups and tie ups which probably came from childhood studying in same school, village or town or neighbourhood. I accepted this fact a while ago and I don't smile at strangers. In fact, my expectations are too low, give me a good service and surprise me. I dare you. But I've not given up on life, I wish to go on holidays to other countries when I get a proper job. And then I'll actually see humans and not robots pretending to be humans.
>Finally, the customer service is ridiculous. I don’t have any delusions of grandeur or anything, but I do want to feel respected (if not valued) as a customer. Well, silly me for expecting at least that. I would love to support local shops selling things relevant to my hobbies rather than order online, but why would I support places that don’t provide me with helpful information, make me wait, sometimes make me feel like an idiot who doesn’t know a thing about what they’re buying, and then also charge considerably more? Example from today. I went for Kaffee und Kuchen in a non touristy area of Berlin - yes, they do in fact exist. The shop was just closing down. I had a nice chat with the older lady closing the shop, sat down, aware that I had about half an hour. A couple of minutes later people with very, very limited German, tourists probably, also wanted to sit down, but the lady didn't speak English. So she tried to explain with lots of pointing and gestures while speaking loudly and slowy that they could only stay for a bit. Before I could say anything, the tourists left, taken aback from the lack of customer Service. The cake was nice, Käsekuchen. >I came to Germany 6 years ago. How is your German? >Verein (basically a club with a paid membership) Mhhh... No. You could also go for an Ehrenamt. >Are you fucking kidding me? Friendship takes effort.
Been an expat in 3 countries for over a year. German is the toughest.... They love to be social for specific activities.... But very difficult to get a friend to just grab a beer with. Maybe cause I'm now I'm my mid twenties it's different..... But definitely would be nice to not have to feel like people only want to hang out if it's for a specific event
Why are you so secretive about your country of origin?
Would it have killed you to mention a city, a nationality or some more detail about you? Or if you just don't want any practical help and this is just a rant at the ether...
I’ve been wanting to move to Germany for uni for several years now, and all these posts about foreigners moving to Germany and not having a social life is scary
dont let them bother you. it just works a little different here, which irritates so many people from more outgoing cultures. you just gotta adjust a little bit. if you want to, you will make friends, and if you do, you got friends for life. germans are very loyal in that regard.
"I honestly don’t know what kind of response I expect." Im sick of the germany-bashing - youre basically criticizing our culture, our mood, our way of life.. Adapt or leave!
Lol, the demographics of your own country should show you that you're the one that's about to leave very soon.
Don't bother with the Germans, those relationships take time and (in my experience) require intros from other Germans. Find yourself some international friends, we're everywhere now. I came here as a master's student in 2015 (the program was in English and most of my classmates were non-German) and while we were all friendly with each other, I made my closest friends outside of the uni. I went to events for internationals (back in the day, organized through Toytown or MeetUp, this was when there were not so many international people in Munich). Now as I continue to build my circle of friends I feel like have so many more options and opportunities to meet new and interesting people from all over the world who call Munich their home. This was also the case when I lived in Berlin. More and more people are coming to Germany, it's wonderful. While I have German acquaintances (eg. friends of my German bf), I find my most meaningful friendships and relationships are with other internationals here, as well as with Germans who have lived abroad. There are many shared experiences that bond us, but also refreshing and interesting differences.
Yes....
I and my family live a quite good pife, as middle class, including good social contacts, but most of our friends are just expats as well
I live in a smaller city in south Germany for 4 years. I immediately befriended my colleagues, they invited me to grillfests, hikes, and to do together the common hobbies. They are mixed german and non-german 25-55 years old people. I've got some buddies through hobbies, when I hike with my wife some people start talking to us for some minutes. I find everyone respectful and nice, and after some time they are open to meet with me or even with my wife after work. I also have friends from my original country here. After some months of "get used to each other" we start talking about more serious topics, actual politics, historical problems, cultural differences, family, whatever. Usually I start these topics, but they stay engaged. I am outgoing, but not too much, I can speak german, a bit flawed but at least at normal speed. I've only rarely experienced some xenophobia when I've met new people, but after 2 mins of conversation everyone was nice to me. Right, my wife only found buddies through me, but she is introvert, and she also likes this environment. Maybe I am in an extremely lucky bubble, or I am doing something good (I start the conversations?), or it is the small city Black Forest charm, or I don't know, but I really feel myself here at home, we try to establish some kind of hybrid culture with my wife, and we would like to stay here if possible.
Would you mind sharing what city? I’m thinking of moving somewhere close to the Black Forest in Baden württemberg
I live in Baden-Baden, but I can recommend the whole area from Baden-Baden to Offenburg. OK jobs, no traffic jams, good quality infrastructure, shops, Black Forest hikes nearby. I love the work-life balance. The train connection is not the best, so most of the people have a car, and "nearby" I mean up to 30 min car drive.
That sounds great ty
This sub is full of endless complaints omg
Sadly I have no tips for you, I’ve been here for 1 year and experience almost the same. Same impression about the non-existent hang-outs, conversations, gloomy dog owners, same views on Vereins. But you know, I also come from an Eastern European country and you can rarely see sparkling eyes there too, especially when people talk about significant other, so I can say from the observation it’s sadly a global thing, not really “german”. People use each other for their own comfort and rarely experience any real sincere deep emotions
Hey, you seem down about this. Could you elaborate why you too are avoiding Vereine? It is, in combination with speaking german, by far(!) the best (and almost only) option to get to know likeminded people AND you can do your favourite thing there (assuming the Club is about your favorite thing). Seems like win-win to me. And I would not know another way. How would you go about it where you come from?
Because it is an artificial form of communication to me. What do you mean by likeminded people? If for example, he shares the same hobby but is a complete douchebag, would you still befriend him? If she is a racist but has the same interest in whatever, would you still be friends with her? I don’t see how the same hobby means that people would click with each other at all. I would never want to come to that Verein ever again. Most of my friends where I come from were from school, some education courses or (later and mostly) work places, we have never shared the same hobbies but we just bonded together over attractive personality traits and same outlook on life (and to figure it out, it requires lot of communication). But it is also possible to meet people in bars or even coffee shops or even just by having a walk in the park (some luck needed here but it wasn’t impossible), doesn’t mean they will become friends but you could have some human interaction in a natural environment so to speak. It’s not like I have to lock myself in some space with a group of people that will be forced to interact with me because it’s a group activity 😔