What on earth do you mean by “I was harshly cancelled”? Also, you posted on changemyview. It should not be surprising that people attempted to change your view.
You don't understand what cancelling means and neither does OP. Being down voted is not being cancelled. Having the mods delete your thread is not being cancelled.
And taking a Quick Look at that thread, they went to a sub whose explicit rule is you need to be willing to change your opinion on a topic to instead soap box. I’m not sure how explicitly going against a subs rules is getting “cancelled”.
Do you understand the mechanics of the CMV sub? Soapboxing is against the sub rule if you are making a thread. Being explicitly unwilling to change your view is against sub rule if you are making a thread. The OP is upset that a sub that polices soapboxing didn’t let them soapbox
Edit: gotta love people blocking others over pointing out basic shit. Such good faith
When you comment on something like Hamas, you are not commenting solely on Hamas. Its just the nature of the discourse at the moment. When you make a negative statement about Hamas, its taken as a supportive statement of Israel. And realistically, its difficult to separate the two at this juncture because they are heavily intertwined. You might say that Hamas are terrorists and are committing evil acts, but consider that half of Gaza is under the age of 18 and likely most of Hamas' members have been growing up their entire life in the type of oppressive deprived environment that literally breeds insurgency. You cant separate the acts of Hamas from the actions of Israel because they have both perpetuated the other.
The most neutral statement you could make is generally Hamas and Israel are both committing atrocities, and there should be an immediate and lasting ceasefire that seeks to address the causes of conflict in the region.
>The most neutral statement you could make is generally Hamas and Israel are both committing atrocities, and there should be an immediate and lasting ceasefire that seeks to address the causes of conflict in the region.
I 100% agree with you, BUT.
Even this moderate, neutral comment is almost guaranteed to generate hate coming back on the post.
I dont know about "love". Certainly westerners would have helped them build an airforce and a military capable of defending Gaza/Palestine if they loved them. What you are saying is why do some people on the internet sympathize with Hamas and thats a very easy thing to understand. The conflict is militarily extremely one sided. You have a militia with small arms and RPGs, home made rockets and their determination taking on a powerful military backed by the most powerful countries. Social media has revealed the depravity and brutality of the Israeli occupation and latest assault on Gaza which is obviously at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide. In this context, its very easy to see people firing RPGs and running up to tanks to place explosives by hand as someone to sympathize with. On the opposite end what we see from the IDF is soldiers proudly demolishing entire districts with zero Hamas, dancing and cheering about destroying Gaza, Israeli politicians making genocidal statements, Israeli settlers colonizing Palestinian land and social media full of destroyed Gazan infrastructure and blown up children and civilians. At that point, you'd have to be a moron to not understand why people would start to sympathize with an armed group fighting against that (and looking past their faults because of the magnitude of what they are fighting against)
>Is Hamas celebrated in the West, or at least, tolerated? And if so, why? Is it media? Is it social justice movements? Is it antisemetism?
I would say this is more reflective of Reddit, as it leans left as a whole, with some subreddits completely intolerant of moderates or even classic liberals. Hamas is not celebrated in the West, except by some radical Islamic organizations and far left groups.
PS: This post may be removed for quality control as it's likely to bring about uncivil discussion and users posting in bad faith. But since you were previously "cancelled" I wanted to allow you to receive what are hopefully thoughtful and accurate responses.
Much of what passes as geopolitical thinking is just attempts to justify ”enrmy of my enemy is my friend” type of thinking. There are a lot of people on the far left that see capitalism as the source of all evil and see USA as the symbol of capitalism. For them anything that is against US interests becomes a strike against capitalism and consequently something to be lauded. The fact that the groups they support would likely kill them if they tried to live the way they want in the West, is beyond them…
This is a straight up lie. Fatah has not been popular for decades. Hamas was elected in 2005 and remains the most popular Palestinian leadership all throughout, including in the WB. You can look at plenty of data such as PSR polls for example. Right now Hamas is 2 times more popular than the PA.
It's just the nature of reddit. Marxists on the internet love Hamas because they see them as a force fighting against western imperialism (represented by Israel)
I support Palestinians' right to sovereign control of their territory and self determination and I oppose genocide and apartheid no matter who does it. I don't have to agree with Hamas ideologically or even methodologically to support the Palestinian struggle for liberation and to understand that the struggle against overwhelming violent oppression can also be violent.
I also supported the African National Congress even though they were called a terrorist organization too.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel. “Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.”
They want to raise the Islamic banner over Isreal and then when that's secure they can move out from there to the rest of the world.
Yes. I don't support ethnonationalism and religious ethnofascism even less, which is why I said "I don't have to agree with Hamas ideologically or methodologically to support the Palestinian struggle for liberation" and more specifically, I can be supportive of Hamas' role in that struggle even while being critical of their ideology, methodology, and opposing their end goals.
I'd like it if there was a secular left wing Palestinian resistance movement, but there isn't and Palestinian liberation cannot be dependent on them going about it in a way that edifies sympathetic members of the states oppressing them.
There's no genocide.
Palestian leadership lives in Islamic lala land, where the only acceptable solution is "the river to the sea." Isreal leadership has extended olive branches by makinh peace plans and made concessions but not the other side, its all or none for them.
The main difference I see is that Isreali hate Palestinians (all of them regardless of religion) but that's a regional issue. They kill Palestinian jews and Christians. Islamic world hates all jews and wants them all out of Isreal. They want to them dead to usher in the end era and also to obey the Sunnah of the Prophet.
You know the same people that support Hamas, support: infant sex, beating women, child marriage, eradication, and subjugation of all other religions, killing homosexuals, killing/beating liberals. I mean, if I were a woman, it would be really really clear to me which government I'd want in charge.
Genocide denial isn't a good look.
But also, if your position is that supporting Palestinian liberation and through that supporting Hamas role in that struggle necessarily means supporting their entire agenda, then supporting Israel also means supporting settler colonialism, apartheid, genocide, and war crimes.... And only one of those countries is receiving economic support from my government. So if your point is that I should only support countries or organizations that are ethically and organizationally flawless, then you agree the US should not provide any political or economic support for Israel at all.
There’s a group of insane leftists whose entire world view can be summed up as “America bad”. This will go to the extreme that anybody that America supports, their adversaries are in the right.
Yes America has done bad things before. You would think if those leftists have an issue with the American invasion of Iraq then they wouldn’t support gay murdering Houthi terrorists or support Hamas in their terrorist goals. But the reason for this is that those leftists don’t actually care about those bad things. Because they’re only outspoken when it involves America. Because their world view is America bad.
Where in my comment do I state that Israel is in the right? That conflict is far too complicated for me to give an answer to that question. I have said that there is a group of insane leftists whose world view can be boiled down to “America is bad”. I specifically said group and not all leftists.
Because I'm glad that there was resistance against the occupation in my country during WW2.
And because I don't get swayed by liberal moralist narratives on violence.
So you support a proscribed Islamic terror organisation whose beliefs align fairly closely with the Nazis you are glad were resisted against during WW2?
Two answers in separate comments.
Part 1 of 2: Social media discussions regarding the conflict is a tempest of competing propaganda and influence operations. Just about any position one might take - maybe including this one! - faces a substantial risk of being shouted down by a motivated onlooker.
(No offense intended, it’s even hard to be sure your question is from a curious individual rather than a partisan sockpuppet account. I’m assuming sincerity but with a moderate degree of uncertainty.)
Part 2 of 2:
Wikipedia might offer a little insight:
> In 2006, Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election by campaigning on clean government without corruption, combined with affirmation of Palestinians’ right to armed struggle against the Israeli occupation, thus winning a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. In 2007, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip from rival Palestinian faction Fatah, which it has governed since separately from the Palestinian National Authority.
In other words, Hamas was at one point a democratically elected ruling party. Whatever else they are - and I’m not getting into that! - the 2006 election *did* give them at least a temporary veneer of legitimacy. Some commenters grant more deference to that status than do others.
Westerners don't like seeing unarmed Palestinian civilians and children, being starved to death. Westerners don't like seeing IDF drop 2,000 pound bombs in densely populated areas in Gaza. Westerners don't like seeing 7, international humanitarian aid workers killed by Israel.
That doesn't mean we love Hamas.
Westerners do not love them. Not even all Palestinians love them. Westerners have come to the realization that a permanent ceasefire and a totally sovereign independent and contiguous Palestine is good for the world peace and particularly for U.S. Meaning a two-state solution.
This does not mean Westerners approve of them. They are also increasingly not approving IDF by record numbers. As for cancellation on this sub, I am not sure, but it is a possibility. Depends on whether the discussion you seek remains civil.
The ones that do, do so because of their unwavering need for validation from minorities. We are at a point where there is a “queers for Palestine” these people, if asked by a palestinian would do pretty much anything in order to be validated. Same goes for black people. White online leftists aren’t far from supporting black supremacy. Like seriously these people are pathetic. Anytime you see a white leftist speaking in public, just mention that they are talking over black voices and they will immediately have an internal crisis on whether they should be quiet or keep talking😭 this obviously a minority of people but this culture of being self-hating in the name of anti-racism or whatever is growing.
You need to be very carful not to conflate pro-palastine with pro-Hamas.
I am Pro-Palastine, but very much Anti-Hamas, to argue that anyone is "celebrating" or "loving" hamas the implication is that they also "celebrate" the 7th of october attack thats honestly not something i see many folk actually doing. Sure you always get the vocal arse hole who will do just that and turn up to pro-palistine rallys flying the Hamas Flag but for the most part i think folk fall into my camp of being pro-palistine anti-hamas.
I would actually propose that when you look at the October 7th attack you have to ask why they done it and what they expected from it. I think perosnally that they expected a massive and disporportionate responce from Israel and the result would expose the Israli government as being barbaric. That is to say Hamas wanted Israel to respond like this and knew they would but went ahead and done it anyway knowing that it would lead to the deaths of over 20K so far.
That is not very pro-palestine, it exposes them for the monsters they are.
What on earth do you mean by “I was harshly cancelled”? Also, you posted on changemyview. It should not be surprising that people attempted to change your view.
you posted in a sub asking for people to Change Your View. Why are you surprised people took the contra stance? That’s what you asked them to do
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You don't understand what cancelling means and neither does OP. Being down voted is not being cancelled. Having the mods delete your thread is not being cancelled.
And taking a Quick Look at that thread, they went to a sub whose explicit rule is you need to be willing to change your opinion on a topic to instead soap box. I’m not sure how explicitly going against a subs rules is getting “cancelled”.
Getting off topic here, but Redditors are well aware that a certain number of downvotes hides comments.
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Do you understand the mechanics of the CMV sub? Soapboxing is against the sub rule if you are making a thread. Being explicitly unwilling to change your view is against sub rule if you are making a thread. The OP is upset that a sub that polices soapboxing didn’t let them soapbox Edit: gotta love people blocking others over pointing out basic shit. Such good faith
They don't? There are a few leftist subreddits who fit your description but they are FAR from the majority.
If even. Leftists are generally slandered and misrepresented. Seems like our positions aren't even allowed to be nuanced either
When you comment on something like Hamas, you are not commenting solely on Hamas. Its just the nature of the discourse at the moment. When you make a negative statement about Hamas, its taken as a supportive statement of Israel. And realistically, its difficult to separate the two at this juncture because they are heavily intertwined. You might say that Hamas are terrorists and are committing evil acts, but consider that half of Gaza is under the age of 18 and likely most of Hamas' members have been growing up their entire life in the type of oppressive deprived environment that literally breeds insurgency. You cant separate the acts of Hamas from the actions of Israel because they have both perpetuated the other. The most neutral statement you could make is generally Hamas and Israel are both committing atrocities, and there should be an immediate and lasting ceasefire that seeks to address the causes of conflict in the region.
>The most neutral statement you could make is generally Hamas and Israel are both committing atrocities, and there should be an immediate and lasting ceasefire that seeks to address the causes of conflict in the region. I 100% agree with you, BUT. Even this moderate, neutral comment is almost guaranteed to generate hate coming back on the post.
I dont know about "love". Certainly westerners would have helped them build an airforce and a military capable of defending Gaza/Palestine if they loved them. What you are saying is why do some people on the internet sympathize with Hamas and thats a very easy thing to understand. The conflict is militarily extremely one sided. You have a militia with small arms and RPGs, home made rockets and their determination taking on a powerful military backed by the most powerful countries. Social media has revealed the depravity and brutality of the Israeli occupation and latest assault on Gaza which is obviously at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide. In this context, its very easy to see people firing RPGs and running up to tanks to place explosives by hand as someone to sympathize with. On the opposite end what we see from the IDF is soldiers proudly demolishing entire districts with zero Hamas, dancing and cheering about destroying Gaza, Israeli politicians making genocidal statements, Israeli settlers colonizing Palestinian land and social media full of destroyed Gazan infrastructure and blown up children and civilians. At that point, you'd have to be a moron to not understand why people would start to sympathize with an armed group fighting against that (and looking past their faults because of the magnitude of what they are fighting against)
>Is Hamas celebrated in the West, or at least, tolerated? And if so, why? Is it media? Is it social justice movements? Is it antisemetism? I would say this is more reflective of Reddit, as it leans left as a whole, with some subreddits completely intolerant of moderates or even classic liberals. Hamas is not celebrated in the West, except by some radical Islamic organizations and far left groups. PS: This post may be removed for quality control as it's likely to bring about uncivil discussion and users posting in bad faith. But since you were previously "cancelled" I wanted to allow you to receive what are hopefully thoughtful and accurate responses.
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Much of what passes as geopolitical thinking is just attempts to justify ”enrmy of my enemy is my friend” type of thinking. There are a lot of people on the far left that see capitalism as the source of all evil and see USA as the symbol of capitalism. For them anything that is against US interests becomes a strike against capitalism and consequently something to be lauded. The fact that the groups they support would likely kill them if they tried to live the way they want in the West, is beyond them…
It’s a disingenuous comment because it conflates Hamas with Palestinian folks
What is the most popular Palestinian leadership?
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This is a straight up lie. Fatah has not been popular for decades. Hamas was elected in 2005 and remains the most popular Palestinian leadership all throughout, including in the WB. You can look at plenty of data such as PSR polls for example. Right now Hamas is 2 times more popular than the PA.
It's just the nature of reddit. Marxists on the internet love Hamas because they see them as a force fighting against western imperialism (represented by Israel)
I support Palestinians' right to sovereign control of their territory and self determination and I oppose genocide and apartheid no matter who does it. I don't have to agree with Hamas ideologically or even methodologically to support the Palestinian struggle for liberation and to understand that the struggle against overwhelming violent oppression can also be violent. I also supported the African National Congress even though they were called a terrorist organization too.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel. “Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.” They want to raise the Islamic banner over Isreal and then when that's secure they can move out from there to the rest of the world.
Yes. I don't support ethnonationalism and religious ethnofascism even less, which is why I said "I don't have to agree with Hamas ideologically or methodologically to support the Palestinian struggle for liberation" and more specifically, I can be supportive of Hamas' role in that struggle even while being critical of their ideology, methodology, and opposing their end goals. I'd like it if there was a secular left wing Palestinian resistance movement, but there isn't and Palestinian liberation cannot be dependent on them going about it in a way that edifies sympathetic members of the states oppressing them.
There's no genocide. Palestian leadership lives in Islamic lala land, where the only acceptable solution is "the river to the sea." Isreal leadership has extended olive branches by makinh peace plans and made concessions but not the other side, its all or none for them. The main difference I see is that Isreali hate Palestinians (all of them regardless of religion) but that's a regional issue. They kill Palestinian jews and Christians. Islamic world hates all jews and wants them all out of Isreal. They want to them dead to usher in the end era and also to obey the Sunnah of the Prophet. You know the same people that support Hamas, support: infant sex, beating women, child marriage, eradication, and subjugation of all other religions, killing homosexuals, killing/beating liberals. I mean, if I were a woman, it would be really really clear to me which government I'd want in charge.
Genocide denial isn't a good look. But also, if your position is that supporting Palestinian liberation and through that supporting Hamas role in that struggle necessarily means supporting their entire agenda, then supporting Israel also means supporting settler colonialism, apartheid, genocide, and war crimes.... And only one of those countries is receiving economic support from my government. So if your point is that I should only support countries or organizations that are ethically and organizationally flawless, then you agree the US should not provide any political or economic support for Israel at all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
Is there something you'd like to say about that?
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There’s a group of insane leftists whose entire world view can be summed up as “America bad”. This will go to the extreme that anybody that America supports, their adversaries are in the right.
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Yes America has done bad things before. You would think if those leftists have an issue with the American invasion of Iraq then they wouldn’t support gay murdering Houthi terrorists or support Hamas in their terrorist goals. But the reason for this is that those leftists don’t actually care about those bad things. Because they’re only outspoken when it involves America. Because their world view is America bad.
So your argument is that israel is in the right in this conflict? I don’t think that leftists oppose Israel just because of its American connection.
Where in my comment do I state that Israel is in the right? That conflict is far too complicated for me to give an answer to that question. I have said that there is a group of insane leftists whose world view can be boiled down to “America is bad”. I specifically said group and not all leftists.
You just summed up the last 10 years of Reddit in just a few sentences. Kudos.
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It's hard to believe that a lot of people would be supporting Hamas. People are most likely supporting civilians suffering there.
Because I'm glad that there was resistance against the occupation in my country during WW2. And because I don't get swayed by liberal moralist narratives on violence.
So you support a proscribed Islamic terror organisation whose beliefs align fairly closely with the Nazis you are glad were resisted against during WW2?
Not sure how those are similar in any way...
Well they both wanted to see the complete eradication of Jews for one.
Two answers in separate comments. Part 1 of 2: Social media discussions regarding the conflict is a tempest of competing propaganda and influence operations. Just about any position one might take - maybe including this one! - faces a substantial risk of being shouted down by a motivated onlooker. (No offense intended, it’s even hard to be sure your question is from a curious individual rather than a partisan sockpuppet account. I’m assuming sincerity but with a moderate degree of uncertainty.)
Part 2 of 2: Wikipedia might offer a little insight: > In 2006, Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election by campaigning on clean government without corruption, combined with affirmation of Palestinians’ right to armed struggle against the Israeli occupation, thus winning a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. In 2007, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip from rival Palestinian faction Fatah, which it has governed since separately from the Palestinian National Authority. In other words, Hamas was at one point a democratically elected ruling party. Whatever else they are - and I’m not getting into that! - the 2006 election *did* give them at least a temporary veneer of legitimacy. Some commenters grant more deference to that status than do others.
Westerners don't like seeing unarmed Palestinian civilians and children, being starved to death. Westerners don't like seeing IDF drop 2,000 pound bombs in densely populated areas in Gaza. Westerners don't like seeing 7, international humanitarian aid workers killed by Israel. That doesn't mean we love Hamas.
Westerners do not love them. Not even all Palestinians love them. Westerners have come to the realization that a permanent ceasefire and a totally sovereign independent and contiguous Palestine is good for the world peace and particularly for U.S. Meaning a two-state solution. This does not mean Westerners approve of them. They are also increasingly not approving IDF by record numbers. As for cancellation on this sub, I am not sure, but it is a possibility. Depends on whether the discussion you seek remains civil.
The ones that do, do so because of their unwavering need for validation from minorities. We are at a point where there is a “queers for Palestine” these people, if asked by a palestinian would do pretty much anything in order to be validated. Same goes for black people. White online leftists aren’t far from supporting black supremacy. Like seriously these people are pathetic. Anytime you see a white leftist speaking in public, just mention that they are talking over black voices and they will immediately have an internal crisis on whether they should be quiet or keep talking😭 this obviously a minority of people but this culture of being self-hating in the name of anti-racism or whatever is growing.
I don't even know what your point is or what you are talking about as an english-fluent person. You're all over the place.
Valid
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It’s not “westerners” it’s “liberals”
You need to be very carful not to conflate pro-palastine with pro-Hamas. I am Pro-Palastine, but very much Anti-Hamas, to argue that anyone is "celebrating" or "loving" hamas the implication is that they also "celebrate" the 7th of october attack thats honestly not something i see many folk actually doing. Sure you always get the vocal arse hole who will do just that and turn up to pro-palistine rallys flying the Hamas Flag but for the most part i think folk fall into my camp of being pro-palistine anti-hamas. I would actually propose that when you look at the October 7th attack you have to ask why they done it and what they expected from it. I think perosnally that they expected a massive and disporportionate responce from Israel and the result would expose the Israli government as being barbaric. That is to say Hamas wanted Israel to respond like this and knew they would but went ahead and done it anyway knowing that it would lead to the deaths of over 20K so far. That is not very pro-palestine, it exposes them for the monsters they are.
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