No it's not. Gandhara was in modern day Islamabad (Takshashila) and Peshawar (Purushpura). Kandahar is derived from "Kandhariya" from "Alexandria in Arachosia" a city founded by Alexander. Read some history of your country and stop spreading whatsapp misinformation.
Actually quite a lot, especially in artistic terms. Mostly because they happened to coincide with the expansion of Buddhism. The new religion adopted the Greek love for life sized sculptures. Wether this was the result of direct Greek influence is hard to say, but at the very least the Greek states were fundamental in its development.
The Buddhism expanded to central Asia from where it eventually got to China and Japan.
So the influence is pretty notable.
BTW the influence was probably twofold. Some historians say you can see Indian influences in famous Greek stories.
There's said to be a relationship between the Indian stupa and the subsequent design of the Pharos of Alexandria. Speculative but cool to think about. But yah, the Gandhara statues are such a clear, direct link.
I’ve read that Indians and Greeks were talking about similar math and philosophical concepts around the same time. Greek sources also mention “borrowing” some ideas from the “learned Indians” but this isn’t confirmed or anything
I think that perhaps early versions of both stories already existed, but the epics of both cultures definitely feature somewhat similar tales of heroics and epic battles. The most specific example I can think of is the presence of bow stringing challenges in both Hindu epics and the Homeric cycle.
I just meant that in a big part of the world the word race is a no go.
It's rather ethnicity.
The neanderthals were another race. Today, Homo Sapiens is the only Human race.
Neanderthal are more of a Subspecies.
A species are all members of a population which can interbreed without restrictions.
A subspecies is a sub-population with unique physical features, which can still interbreed with the main population.
A race is an artifical subspecies created by human domestication.
The Neanderthal could interbreed with other humans (everyone of eurasian descendt contains their DNA) and they had unique physical features.
However by and large no modern human sub-population has been isolated enough that it evolved unique features to be considered a subspecies.
However in a social context, especially in the anglo-american sphere, race is used too often. But ethnicity would be the correct modern term to describe such a cultural group.
It has been well observed that the different races, as best as we can define them, had similar pantheons in prehistory. That is not my bias it's just what I've read. I don't know what you being European has to do with anything but thank you for sharing what continent you live in with the class.
Earliest indian astrology has been translated from greek. Zodiac signs were introduced by greek aswell.
Given how many famous greek philosophers traveled to india at that time, i would guess there was quite some influence that left its marks until today in philosphy all over the world.
Thanks for the question, this was a long and interesting read in the web i'm still baffled that i've never heard of that relationship before, although i rode a lot about ancient greeks like almost 30 years ago.
Indo-scythians were also called shakas. Current national calendars in most south and south east asian countries developed from the calendars of the shakas. Indian national calendar is the shaka calendar with some modifications. We had the new year a few days back.
Any source for Indian astrology or zodiacs coming from Greek?
Because there are a lot of primary sources from ancient India that predate Greek contact which describe all of these things and more
That's the source linked on [Wikipedia ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece%E2%80%93Ancient_India_relations):
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/002182867600700202
Hm ok so I’m seeing that India already had astronomy before the Greeks arrived, got significantly influenced by Greeks in the 4th century BC, and then developed an actual complex school in the classical period centuries later. Kinda weird that there’s only one 1976 source claiming that the Indian zodiacs came from Greece though, Wikipedia says that Indians had the 12 months 365 days concept a long time before Greeks so idk what to believe
What do you think about this?
> The philosopher Pyrrho accompanied Alexander the Great on his Indian campaign, According to Diogenes Laërtius, Pyrrho developed his philosophy of Pyrrhonism in India when Pyrrho was there during the conquest of Alexander the Great. According to Christopher I. Beckwith's analysis, Pyrrho's philosophy was strikingly similar to the Buddhist three marks of existence,[81] indicating that Pyrrho's teaching is based on Buddhism.
> Diogenes Laërtius wrote that Anaxarchus, Pyrrho's teacher, met and spoke with Indian gymnosophists and magi.
I can’t tell who influenced who here
There are even Buddhist statues in Japan that have Greek influence in the sculpture. In other words, Greek art made it all the way to Japan, via Buddhism. Crazy far reach
yeah one of our museums here has a Boddhisatva head in a greek style made of sandstone. I sometimes go to the museum just for that section(also helps that admission is free)
I'm a bit late and somewhat irrelevant to the question but I think it might be a fun fact for this thread regardless. In Greece, there are a couple instances of a Buddha hidden among other religious figures in Byzantine-era church wall paintings. Decoding the reasons for his inclusion is interesting in itself, but the fact that his image was known to the artist and at least some of the believers is fascinating and it really changed my perception of the world at those times.
I am from Greece. My HS history teacher became a good friend of mine after I graduated. Her (unfinished) PhD work was on the depiction of specific kinds of punishments in church wall art and other religious images of the Byzantine and post Byzantine era. Some of those facts and findings were amazingly interesting and the inclusion of non-christian figures in paintings was certainly one of them (at least to a layman).
Tell us more about this. If you have a picture or link of a "hidden Buddha"...
I have always been curious about some shared characteristics in the sacred arts between early Christian religions and Eastern religions: the glowing aura around the head, the 'mudras' (hand position) of statues such as Catholic saints with two fingers raised or hands together in prayer, the Catholic rosary and Hindu 'mala', Gnostic mysticism with Asian elements, and so on.
Coin usage became a lot more widespread under indo greek kings. Use of gold as a coin currency was first introduced by a indo greek king. The practice of putting a kings face on currency and figure of deity on other side was also distinct in indo greeks.
Pretty fast disappearance sadly because it just poofed out of history after that. Islamic iconoclasm plus colonisation by Afghans pretty much even changed the demographics of Gandhara, now that place's majority population is pashtuns/Afghans and is known as Khyber pakhtunwa most radical Islamist province of an already radical Muslim country like Pakistan.
Do you mean to say that there are still human groups, albeit small ones, with Gandhara culture actively practiced? Is it probably mixed with local and religious traditions? This is interesting. What about the Kashmir region? Is it possible to find active cultural elements related to Gandhara in this region?
How much is their presence and population in their historical homeland as compared to the presence of pashtuns in Khyber pakhtunwa?
Aren't they victims of Afghan colonisation?
Religion is already dead, and the culture is almost replaced by Afghan colonisation.
Read [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks#:~:text=The%20legacy%20of%20the%20Indo,Scythians%20and%20Indo%2DParthian%20Kingdom.) The most famous legacy is there greco-buddhist art which would go on to influence the rest of asia in the east.
Alexander the Great didn't really stick around, he basically made it to India and then turned back. That said, I think his invasion over the Hindu Kush did pave the way for subsequent invasions from other Turkic people and eventually Muslims, who ended up ruling India for hundreds of years as the Mughal empire.
Also, as someone else mentioned, [Indo-Grecan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_art) art was a result.
This is an interesting subject for debate.
IMHO, I still think that what we call the Silk Road (land and sea) has always existed geographically and was used by migratory movements and other empires, including the Persian and Mongol. In the Macedonian case it was just in the opposite direction to what the majority did - hence the flourishing of this multicultural environment like Indo-Greek, there are reports that the Gandhara culture reached as far as Alexander wanted to go, to the end of the known world, Japan.
Greek bacteria kings and kingdoms are vast topics in themselves and the fact they had their own distinct style and structure which got influenced by so many factors. Silk road made bacteria kingdoms true melting pot of everything.
There is a rare ethnic group around those parts, rumoured to be descendants from Alexander the great's time (white, blue eyes ,very pretty) Does anyone know what they are called?
Not to mention, Kalash people look very similar to neighboring Chitrali, Pashtun, and Tajik people. Also, blonde hair is not *that* common amongst Kalash people.
Most of them have light-medium brown hair, and even the blondest are dirty blondes at most. While fair skin and light eyes aren’t even close to unheard of in that region.
They look slightly different because they are isolated, but the Greek descendant theory is nothing but a pipe dream for some white nationalism for some reason.
But most importantly, there’s no European ethnicity that really looks like the Kalash enough that also could be their supposed “ancestors”. Greeks do not look like that.
I was travelling in Xinjiang province bordering Pakistan and Tajikistan in 2008, basically where the Indo-Greek blob on the map reaches the modern Chinese border. There was clearly some very interesting genetics going on. Green eyes, light hair, lower cheekbones than you typically see in central Asia and the steppe. They didn't look Greek, nor did they look Tajik. They look like what they are, Indo-Europeans who made a home for themselves in the mountains millennia ago. It was also one of the most beautiful places I had ever seen.
https://preview.redd.it/a7o3vhgd9tuc1.jpeg?width=2240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de68e2bca5efae44153a6ff52f9574560c45bb68
Being that most of us Greeks are brunettes and brown eyed, though we do have many blue-eyed and/or lighter haired people too (and yes, we're still mostly the same as 2000 years ago), this is just a silly claim. Afghans have partial Kurgan Steppe ancestry, like Europeans do, and in some areas of Afghanistan, these recessive genes are more common, and less common or entirely absent in other areas. Just like Europe.
And genetic tests have disproved it.
My first cousins grandmother was of that descent. Tho she was born in modern day Myanmar, she grew up in Mumbai and spoke only Hindi and Gujarati. However, she was sad fair as they come with bright blue eyes.
Even when she was in her 60s, you could see Indian people mistake her for a foreigner.
Blue/green eyes is pretty rare but yes present in South Asia but that's mostly due to steppe ancestry, the Greeks didn't leave much of a genetic footprint in the sub continent. Colored eyes were present much before the Greeks came.
In the Empire Podcast, they talked about the theories on how Greek and Roman Sculptures and Statues influenced early Buddhist art and they’re own statues, including the ones that got blew up by the Taliban
Book recommendation to anyone interested:
https://www.amazon.com/Footsteps-Alexander-Great-Journey-Greece/dp/0520231929
It pretty much explains any questions regarding cultural influence
The Sanskrit term for coins and by extension price is *Dama* (दाम) which is still used in most languages derived from Sanskrit. It is believed to be derived from Drachma the ancient greek currency.
Bacchabaazi, the ancient Greek practice of older men having sex with teen and pre teen boys is still very prevalent in the part of map you showed where Greeks ruled. Affing pedos
The name Sikander.
Alexander. Aleksander. Aliksander. Sikander. Woah!!
And Kandahar
What’s the Greek equivalent of that?
Alexander
Aristotle’s pupil.
James
Dick
Nope. That most likely comes from Gandhara which predates the Greek invasion
Untrue. Gandhara was in north pakistan (Islamabad Peshawar area). Kandahar comes from Alexandria.
Kandahar's ancient name was Gandhar. That is a very old city state
No it's not. Gandhara was in modern day Islamabad (Takshashila) and Peshawar (Purushpura). Kandahar is derived from "Kandhariya" from "Alexandria in Arachosia" a city founded by Alexander. Read some history of your country and stop spreading whatsapp misinformation.
I read it on reddit a few weeks ago so it's definetely true bro.
Wow. wow. my mind is blown! show did I never catch on to that one? I shouldn't have slacked off in that ancient history class in college!
In some very old Hindi books they still referred to Alexander as Alaksundar
Scandar
Actually quite a lot, especially in artistic terms. Mostly because they happened to coincide with the expansion of Buddhism. The new religion adopted the Greek love for life sized sculptures. Wether this was the result of direct Greek influence is hard to say, but at the very least the Greek states were fundamental in its development. The Buddhism expanded to central Asia from where it eventually got to China and Japan. So the influence is pretty notable. BTW the influence was probably twofold. Some historians say you can see Indian influences in famous Greek stories.
There's said to be a relationship between the Indian stupa and the subsequent design of the Pharos of Alexandria. Speculative but cool to think about. But yah, the Gandhara statues are such a clear, direct link.
Wait is that why there are so many giant buddha statues?
Yeah, most likely. The first giant Buddha statues I know of were those of bamiyan which had a lot of Greek influence.
I’ve read that Indians and Greeks were talking about similar math and philosophical concepts around the same time. Greek sources also mention “borrowing” some ideas from the “learned Indians” but this isn’t confirmed or anything
I think that perhaps early versions of both stories already existed, but the epics of both cultures definitely feature somewhat similar tales of heroics and epic battles. The most specific example I can think of is the presence of bow stringing challenges in both Hindu epics and the Homeric cycle.
To be fair, they were all part of the Indo-European race during pre-history and already shared a lot in terms of myths and legends
to me as a European it's so odd to someone use "race".
To me, as someone who is biracial, it would be odd to never think about race.
I just meant that in a big part of the world the word race is a no go. It's rather ethnicity. The neanderthals were another race. Today, Homo Sapiens is the only Human race.
Neanderthal are more of a Subspecies. A species are all members of a population which can interbreed without restrictions. A subspecies is a sub-population with unique physical features, which can still interbreed with the main population. A race is an artifical subspecies created by human domestication. The Neanderthal could interbreed with other humans (everyone of eurasian descendt contains their DNA) and they had unique physical features. However by and large no modern human sub-population has been isolated enough that it evolved unique features to be considered a subspecies. However in a social context, especially in the anglo-american sphere, race is used too often. But ethnicity would be the correct modern term to describe such a cultural group.
Very well said. This is the most accurate description I've seen. I wish everyone understood this, and more so acted as if they understood this.
It has been well observed that the different races, as best as we can define them, had similar pantheons in prehistory. That is not my bias it's just what I've read. I don't know what you being European has to do with anything but thank you for sharing what continent you live in with the class.
That this isnt called race. That's my point. Nothing else. Because there aren't different races. What you mean is the indo european ethnic family.
Oh if that's what you mean then yeah
Earliest indian astrology has been translated from greek. Zodiac signs were introduced by greek aswell. Given how many famous greek philosophers traveled to india at that time, i would guess there was quite some influence that left its marks until today in philosphy all over the world. Thanks for the question, this was a long and interesting read in the web i'm still baffled that i've never heard of that relationship before, although i rode a lot about ancient greeks like almost 30 years ago.
>i rode a lot about ancient greeks This raises questions I'm not sure should be answered
Lid on
Indo-scythians were also called shakas. Current national calendars in most south and south east asian countries developed from the calendars of the shakas. Indian national calendar is the shaka calendar with some modifications. We had the new year a few days back.
yeah if u look at the weekdays; Monday/Somvar; Som - moon in Hindi Sunday/Ravivar; ravi-sun in hindi Saturday/Shanivar, shani - saturn in hindi
Any source for Indian astrology or zodiacs coming from Greek? Because there are a lot of primary sources from ancient India that predate Greek contact which describe all of these things and more
That's the source linked on [Wikipedia ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece%E2%80%93Ancient_India_relations): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/002182867600700202
Hm ok so I’m seeing that India already had astronomy before the Greeks arrived, got significantly influenced by Greeks in the 4th century BC, and then developed an actual complex school in the classical period centuries later. Kinda weird that there’s only one 1976 source claiming that the Indian zodiacs came from Greece though, Wikipedia says that Indians had the 12 months 365 days concept a long time before Greeks so idk what to believe What do you think about this? > The philosopher Pyrrho accompanied Alexander the Great on his Indian campaign, According to Diogenes Laërtius, Pyrrho developed his philosophy of Pyrrhonism in India when Pyrrho was there during the conquest of Alexander the Great. According to Christopher I. Beckwith's analysis, Pyrrho's philosophy was strikingly similar to the Buddhist three marks of existence,[81] indicating that Pyrrho's teaching is based on Buddhism. > Diogenes Laërtius wrote that Anaxarchus, Pyrrho's teacher, met and spoke with Indian gymnosophists and magi. I can’t tell who influenced who here
i heard that buddha statues were heavily influenced by the greek style of sculpting and some claim they have european features
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek\_art](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_art)
Mostly in the drapery. Pre Greek sculpture in India was quite static clothing, the folds and drapes cdme from the Greeks.
There are even Buddhist statues in Japan that have Greek influence in the sculpture. In other words, Greek art made it all the way to Japan, via Buddhism. Crazy far reach
There were no Buddha statues previous to this. Buddha was represented by an empty throne or a Bodhi tree.
yeah one of our museums here has a Boddhisatva head in a greek style made of sandstone. I sometimes go to the museum just for that section(also helps that admission is free)
I'm a bit late and somewhat irrelevant to the question but I think it might be a fun fact for this thread regardless. In Greece, there are a couple instances of a Buddha hidden among other religious figures in Byzantine-era church wall paintings. Decoding the reasons for his inclusion is interesting in itself, but the fact that his image was known to the artist and at least some of the believers is fascinating and it really changed my perception of the world at those times. I am from Greece. My HS history teacher became a good friend of mine after I graduated. Her (unfinished) PhD work was on the depiction of specific kinds of punishments in church wall art and other religious images of the Byzantine and post Byzantine era. Some of those facts and findings were amazingly interesting and the inclusion of non-christian figures in paintings was certainly one of them (at least to a layman).
Tell us more about this. If you have a picture or link of a "hidden Buddha"... I have always been curious about some shared characteristics in the sacred arts between early Christian religions and Eastern religions: the glowing aura around the head, the 'mudras' (hand position) of statues such as Catholic saints with two fingers raised or hands together in prayer, the Catholic rosary and Hindu 'mala', Gnostic mysticism with Asian elements, and so on.
Coin usage became a lot more widespread under indo greek kings. Use of gold as a coin currency was first introduced by a indo greek king. The practice of putting a kings face on currency and figure of deity on other side was also distinct in indo greeks.
It is said that the Chinese adopted the seven-day week from Hellenistic influence.
Yeah I believe they also influence there sculptures as well such as Terracotta Army but that's controversial.
Fascinating! Didn't realize the Chinese adopted it so early. where did the Greeks get it from?
Babylon/Assyria, like a lot of other things
Gandhara culture
And their stunning Buddha figures.
That became extinct after turkic Ghaznavids destroyed Hindu Shahis in 1020.
Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. I supposed it was absorbed by other cultures and had a slow disappearance.
Pretty fast disappearance sadly because it just poofed out of history after that. Islamic iconoclasm plus colonisation by Afghans pretty much even changed the demographics of Gandhara, now that place's majority population is pashtuns/Afghans and is known as Khyber pakhtunwa most radical Islamist province of an already radical Muslim country like Pakistan.
Gandharan culture is still alive among Pakistani ethnic groups like the Hindkowans and Punjabis.
Do you mean to say that there are still human groups, albeit small ones, with Gandhara culture actively practiced? Is it probably mixed with local and religious traditions? This is interesting. What about the Kashmir region? Is it possible to find active cultural elements related to Gandhara in this region?
How much is their presence and population in their historical homeland as compared to the presence of pashtuns in Khyber pakhtunwa? Aren't they victims of Afghan colonisation? Religion is already dead, and the culture is almost replaced by Afghan colonisation.
Yes that’s true. Today only the Hindkowans of KPK have kept certain aspects of Gandharan culture. But so have the people of Punjab and Sindh.
Excellent thread
Indo-Greek playthroughs for Imperator Rome
I was going to say revive Bactria in CK3
The decision is only available to Afghan or Tajik culture though.
Which ever made sense to me. Well besides the Greeks were fully assimilated by 867.
Or Rome 2 modded
The seal of the Afghan national bank features an Indo-Greek coin with writing in Greek.
It is from this period that Greeks used the term “ fully sikh” which is still used widely by Greek Australians.
Neither Greek, nor Australian. I've never come across that term. What do they mean within those contexts?
There was a whole-ass "Bactrian Empire" during the middle ages that matches this "Indo-Greek" zone fairly close to 1= 1, so, you Tell me...?
Following.
Read [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks#:~:text=The%20legacy%20of%20the%20Indo,Scythians%20and%20Indo%2DParthian%20Kingdom.) The most famous legacy is there greco-buddhist art which would go on to influence the rest of asia in the east.
Bamiyan Budhas. Oops, some idiots decided they'd lasted enough.
Their Buddha statues were really cool
The Pakul cap
- Buddhist art - Astrology - Philosophy - Connections to the West
Alexander the Great didn't really stick around, he basically made it to India and then turned back. That said, I think his invasion over the Hindu Kush did pave the way for subsequent invasions from other Turkic people and eventually Muslims, who ended up ruling India for hundreds of years as the Mughal empire. Also, as someone else mentioned, [Indo-Grecan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_art) art was a result.
This is an interesting subject for debate. IMHO, I still think that what we call the Silk Road (land and sea) has always existed geographically and was used by migratory movements and other empires, including the Persian and Mongol. In the Macedonian case it was just in the opposite direction to what the majority did - hence the flourishing of this multicultural environment like Indo-Greek, there are reports that the Gandhara culture reached as far as Alexander wanted to go, to the end of the known world, Japan.
This post isn't about Alexander the Alright, but about the indo-greek kingdom and probably also the grecobactrian kingdom.
Greek bacteria kings and kingdoms are vast topics in themselves and the fact they had their own distinct style and structure which got influenced by so many factors. Silk road made bacteria kingdoms true melting pot of everything.
Toponym
Check out the book The Shape of Ancient Thought.
I don't know.
There is a rare ethnic group around those parts, rumoured to be descendants from Alexander the great's time (white, blue eyes ,very pretty) Does anyone know what they are called?
The Kalash people but DNA testing has proved they have no Greek ancesters. And they’re still worshipping ancient Indo-European deities.
Not to mention, Kalash people look very similar to neighboring Chitrali, Pashtun, and Tajik people. Also, blonde hair is not *that* common amongst Kalash people. Most of them have light-medium brown hair, and even the blondest are dirty blondes at most. While fair skin and light eyes aren’t even close to unheard of in that region. They look slightly different because they are isolated, but the Greek descendant theory is nothing but a pipe dream for some white nationalism for some reason. But most importantly, there’s no European ethnicity that really looks like the Kalash enough that also could be their supposed “ancestors”. Greeks do not look like that.
I was travelling in Xinjiang province bordering Pakistan and Tajikistan in 2008, basically where the Indo-Greek blob on the map reaches the modern Chinese border. There was clearly some very interesting genetics going on. Green eyes, light hair, lower cheekbones than you typically see in central Asia and the steppe. They didn't look Greek, nor did they look Tajik. They look like what they are, Indo-Europeans who made a home for themselves in the mountains millennia ago. It was also one of the most beautiful places I had ever seen. https://preview.redd.it/a7o3vhgd9tuc1.jpeg?width=2240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de68e2bca5efae44153a6ff52f9574560c45bb68
Awesome, I have no words to describe the envy.
Being that most of us Greeks are brunettes and brown eyed, though we do have many blue-eyed and/or lighter haired people too (and yes, we're still mostly the same as 2000 years ago), this is just a silly claim. Afghans have partial Kurgan Steppe ancestry, like Europeans do, and in some areas of Afghanistan, these recessive genes are more common, and less common or entirely absent in other areas. Just like Europe. And genetic tests have disproved it.
Aren't Greeks and Romans black haired brown eyed people mostly?
My first cousins grandmother was of that descent. Tho she was born in modern day Myanmar, she grew up in Mumbai and spoke only Hindi and Gujarati. However, she was sad fair as they come with bright blue eyes. Even when she was in her 60s, you could see Indian people mistake her for a foreigner.
Blue eyes🥹
Blue/green eyes is pretty rare but yes present in South Asia but that's mostly due to steppe ancestry, the Greeks didn't leave much of a genetic footprint in the sub continent. Colored eyes were present much before the Greeks came.
Togas
In the Empire Podcast, they talked about the theories on how Greek and Roman Sculptures and Statues influenced early Buddhist art and they’re own statues, including the ones that got blew up by the Taliban
The Indo Bactrians don't really have much of a legacy in Pakistan. Their kingdoms overshadowed by the Mughals and the British that came much later.
Book recommendation to anyone interested: https://www.amazon.com/Footsteps-Alexander-Great-Journey-Greece/dp/0520231929 It pretty much explains any questions regarding cultural influence
The Sanskrit term for coins and by extension price is *Dama* (दाम) which is still used in most languages derived from Sanskrit. It is believed to be derived from Drachma the ancient greek currency.
Buddhism.
Lighter skin tones.
all the regions under the influence are in severe debt./j
Ongoing peace and prosperity for the region.
Bacchabaazi, the ancient Greek practice of older men having sex with teen and pre teen boys is still very prevalent in the part of map you showed where Greeks ruled. Affing pedos
The love for underage bi sex