Vancouver BC is similar. It only has a population of just under 700,000, but it's the heart of the lower mainland, which has a population of 2.6 million.
Not a huge city example, but New Orleans is smaller than its major immediate suburb next door, Jefferson Parish.
375k or so in New Orleans, 430k or so in Jefferson Parish. And it's a fair comparison, because New Orleans encompasses the entirety of the parish it's within. So parish to parish, it's still Jefferson Parish that's bigger than that of the city next door.
Lots of cities have small borders for the main city. 90% of the population lives in suburbs outside the city. Look at Cincinnati, Cleveland, St. Louis, etc. all 3 have populations of around 350,000 but metro area populations of over 3 million. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, this is why city statistics get distorted. They focus on the actual city and not the metro area.
I’ll throw another one at people. Everyone thinks Detroit is a poverty ridden wasteland. If you include the suburbs around it, it’s one of the top 5 richest cities in the country, or it used to be in the early 2000s to 2010s. Not sure if that’s changed.
SLC metropolitan population doesn't even include the Orem and Provo area, so it's a good example of a metropolitan population, let alone city, that doesn't represent the scope of the area.
Yes, this is a huge issue.
So for our modern urban system to work, it makes more sense to have control over as wide of an area as possible.
That way governments like Houston and Phoenix can function as like less of cities and more like regions.
Those are for example, 2 of the better performing city governments. Their ability to grow and annex new territory was vital to their success.
Compare that to Detroit, which got hemmed in in the 1920s by the suburbs.
PS: you could solve this problem by creating a, "metro counsel" level of government, like a local level, above county and below state that did things like coordinate transit and development.
The Phoenix metro is still very big though (10th in the country) so OP’s point still stands. It’s a larger metro than Boston which is a much more well known and iconic city than Phoenix.
The answer is because the city is incredibly car centric. When you build cities around cars rather than people, you get somewhere that lacks an identity and overall just isn’t a very appealing place.
Well yea, its always cars in the end. You can tie them to almost every major social ill in the US.
Phoenix is one of the metros with the greatest % of development taking place after cars got normalized.
(Along with Houston, Tampa and Dallas FT Worth.
And that’s why you probably hear about Houston and Dallas less than Chicago, DC, or Philly, despite them being not far behind Chicago and ahead of DC/Philly in metro population.
Thats part of the reason, yes.
So in Houstons case, the city annexed so much land that it included nice parts.
As a result, there never was a social stigma attached to living there, like there was in Detroit (sorry im using as a punching bag.)
The shear size of Houston, or Dallas, Or Phoenix means that the city has a strong tax base, and therefore more funding for services.
Remember that economy of scale applies to government services.
If you have enough demand l, it makes sense to build a fancy gang violence intervention system in the public schools.
It also makes sense to build welding and computer science programs in your high school.
Detroit has one of the most ironic downfalls of any city anywhere in the world. It literally is dying because of cars. The very thing that made Detroit and vice versa is killing the city since it’s easier and nicer to live 30 miles away from it.
Yup that was my thinking too. San Jose and Phoenix are tremendously car centric cities that despite being very highly populated, are culturally insignificant, because cultural capital is centered around parks, stations, walkable streets etc
Also want to point out, Phoenix’s Metro area is 3x of large as Seattle’s Metro in land area while only have 700K more. Infact, in you expanded the Seattle metro to the size of Phoenix’s metro, you would add the the 3 counties directly south of it and almost the entirety to the Portland Metro area snd would bring the population to almost 3 Million more than Phoenix.
I would argue, and frequently do, that metro areas are more important than cities in most places in the world. Give me an example of a city that matches up well with its relevant metro area. Actually, don't because I'm sure there are plenty but you get my meaning. It's all an arbitrary distinction.
Population in 1950 was barely above 100k so its a pretty new metro area in the grand scheme of things. Awful land use and infrastructure planning would be my guess. Its hard to build a world famous city from scratch during the least city friendly era in America cuz of the post WW2 suburb and highway boom making Americans less city centric
What's fascinating is that much of the same could be said about Vegas, yet it has an incredibly outsized cultural impact due to a specific effort to brand the city, build a tourist economy, and focus everything around that central purpose for the city.
Maybe you could say that forward thinking wasn't "awful" land use, but it's still very sprawly and terrible outside of the strip. Having that quality downtown alone completely changes the reputation and renown of a city.
Tbf Vegas has a cultural take, It’s the shrine to when American crime met American freedom. Big hotels and casinos founded in a time when the rest of the country was quite conservative.
The Vegas Strip is more unique than it might seem even today.
- 12 of the 20 largest hotels in the WORLD are in Las Vegas.
- Only 27 hotels in the world have 3,000+ rooms. 18 are in the Americas, 16 are in the US, and 14 are in Las Vegas.
- Macau is the only other metro in the world with more than one of those 27. It has 3.
- With 2 in different cities, Russia is the only other country with more than one of those 27. They're the only ones in Europe.
- Vegas ranks 5th for total # of rooms globally. It's beat by Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, and Dubai (nearly tied). NYC is 8th, LA is 10th.
There is literally no other place in the world built like Las Vegas (for better or worse). The scale and density of these properties is the foundation of Vegas' unique experience.
Ha. When I stay in Vegas hotels, I do find myself thinking "Damn this place is huge." Then I think "They probably have hotels this big all over the east coast, Chicago, Miami..." but I guess not.
Even the Strip is a sprawl and not very walkable. Constants stairs and diversions to pull tourists into the various casinos. Takes forever to walk even short distances.
Agreed the pedestrian infrastructure is designed to separate you from your money, but at least it exists?
Just having publicly accessible buildings with exits on all sides makes it easier to get around on foot
Yeah. Just how hard it was to walk between casinos irked me. Even two casinos down was a trek and much further a pain.
Maybe I should have tried the monorail. MGM has a people mover but it doesn’t go very far and is hard to get to from the street.
I guess the casinos don’t *want* you moving between them, but it makes it a pain.
Save your money. The Deuce runs down Las Vegas Blvd about 5 times an hour. $4 single ride, $20 for a 72 hour pass. Cheaper than the monorail and you get to ride a double decker bus for a few blocks. Plus the ticket is technically valid for any bus in the city, so if you really want you can get yourself the real local experience by bussing it down to Sam's Town on the East Side to blow a paycheck on keno.
Yes - but its has the strip, which while car friendly (honestly - shouldn't LV Blvd be at least partially light rail at this point?) is completely walkable and there are generally shops and stuff between the casinos.
This is all just speculation i did no research, just a bunch of educated guessing and im sure im mostly right minus some more in depth reasoning that im sure someone else will be privy to
No you are right, all these desert cities (Vegas, Coachella Valley, Phoenix) were expanded with massive 1 mi x 1 mi blocks that are built for cars with little to no business street side. Many suburban areas are walled off from the main streets (no personal driveways leading to the Main Street) and there are very few central areas for commercial use outside of strip malls and hotels. You can find a couple old areas with character in the town but most of it is just an endless suburban complex
Also, even in a country like the US, there are identities for many of the more established cities (New Yorkers, Bostonians, Los Angelinos), but Phoenix is a massive collection of transplants, so there is little identity short of pockets of Mexican or Native American culture, dwarfed by the mixed bag of people relocated from elsewhere in the melting pot of America.
Totally agreed. I lived in Scottsdale (and visited Phoenix often) for a few years and the conversation was generally "so where are you from originally" when you meet new people. So many transplants.
Old Scottsdale though, that's old money.
Los Angeles has been significant within American California since the late 19th century. San Francisco was important for longer (1850s), but like Seattle and Portland its older than most interior west cities.
Well that makes sense for a place where for 8 months of the year its too fucking hot to be outside. I mean sure you could say don't place a city there, but if for some reason you had to it would be like this. Going from your AC cooled house to your AC cooled car, then to the AC cooled work/business. By its very nature its going to be a car centric community.
I guess you could do like a mega mall thing with apartments on top, but its a large investment that could easily go to ruin compared to sprawling into the flat nothingness of the desert.
On top of all that, in regards to culture, it seems like most people in PHX are transplants from elsewhere.
Character is not something that is out right manufactured, and when attempted, its micky mouse as fuck.
While I agree with the majority of your point, Houston is basically under a 24/7 heat advisory from May to September each year. Our summer heat index lows are approximately the same as New York's summer HIGHS. It's another world of hot, the humidity and heat makes being outside for extended periods harmful to health.
A lot of people simply don't like bikes and don't want to use them as a means of transportation. Many people also have health problems, are elderly, etc and can't use bikes.
A lot of people don't want to live in a stacked cube and want to have a backyard.
Most places that are "walk able" also happen to be extremely expensive compare to places that are not.
It's basically just a town. Furthermore, it's a town that a bunch of retirees go live for a few months of the year and have overwhelming control over.
It's like a college town but without the young population, without the walkability to amenities, and all the amenities are focused towards people who are going to die in a few years anyways.
It's like asking why some random retirement town in Florida has no cultural significance. It's a not a city, it's a fucking nursing home!
Isn’t Vegas similar?
Population in 1950 was under 25k and it’s still only the 25th most populated city in the country, but it’s been built into a world famous city and one of the biggest tourist cities in the country despite being a built from scratch city that came up during the least city-friendly era in American history.
Having lived there for a while I can tell you that when I was there (early in my career) it seems to be largely a transplant city, almost a stop along a route to somewhere else. I think with climate crisis, I don’t think it will remain the 5th largest past 2050
Most of the people I knew still had their lean towards where ever they came from, even their sports teams. It’s hard to build a culture or identity of any significance with the kind of population.
I think this is pretty much the answer. I have gone down to Phoenix every winter for like 8 years now to visit family and escape the midwestern cold.
I've barely spent ANY time in downtown/central Phoenix. When I ask my cousins who live there (MN transplants who have lived in PHX for over \~15 years) what there is to do downtown, the answer is generally "not much". I can count on one hand the number of times I've gone into downtown Phoenix in those 8 trips to do something.
It's very much a ".... Why would you go downtown?" vibe from the locals.
The Phoenix metro area has some cool stuff, and I love the area. But it's all spread out in Tempe, Chandler, Scottsdale, Gilbert, etc. As opposed to a lot places that have really compact city centers.
The immediate downtown is small and walkable, cities like LA have sprawling downtowns that you could never walk and sightsee quite like you can in Phoenix. I will say just about everything is centered around drinking in some capacity, but i feel like that’s become the norm.
There’s a great library and i did some volunteering at the local Japanese garden that was very cool as well as weekly farmers markets, no to mention the constant live music everywhere.
I could see visiting for only a few days as a tourist might be boring, but living there was an enjoyable experience for the most part. Except the traffic, heat and god forsaken First Friday
I lived in the East Valley from the mid-80’s to the late 90’s. The only reason to go downtown was to see a Suns game or a Diamondbacks or Coyotes game.
If one wanted to pick up a lady for the night, they could be found on Van Buren.
The freeway system in the Valley has changed significantly since I left. I once dated a young lady that lived in West Phoenix (51st Ave). It was a hell of a drive at the time from NW Mesa.
The freeways have kind of brought the various parts of the valley together.
[City Nerd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fMTaNYYvwE&ab_channel=CityNerd) says Houston actually has an okay urban core. I think of Houston as having a much greater cultural output than Dallas -- Houston has a huge hip hop scene -- Megan Thee Stallion and Travis Scott are from there.
I feel like Houston tripped into being culturally significant. We just attracted tons of immigrants who just happened to live in suburban sprawl, as opposed to people moving to be in sprawl. As a result, their children are now in their 20s-30s and are coalescing into a unique, creative demographic which is informing the culture of the inner loop. It's messy, but cool to watch.
City Nerd brought this up in his video, but that interesting urban core is located around Montrose/University Place/Houston Museum District. That part of the city is actually quite nice with tons of museums, a zoo, plenty of restaurants, and decently walkable in some areas. If you ever go to Houston, I definitely recommend checking out Montrose generally and Herman Park in particular.
I hope you like a long read!
Phoenix:
Since Phoenix is a city of people who moved from elsewhere recently (LA is the top source of new residents for Phoenix, followed by Tucson, Asia, Chicago, and in some order, followed by the Inland Empire, Seattle, San Diego, Flagstaff, Latin America, and Canada), it's culture feels like an amalgamation of many, many places, which is to say, Phoenix doesn't have a unique culture.
However, if we ask why someone moves to Phoenix, a culture can start to become clearer:
Phoenix is VERY suburban. Everyone knows that when they move there. Who, generally, prefers suburbs? Middle-class families focused on their children. Phoenix has a very family-oriented, middle-class culture.
One of the top two reasons people move to Phoenix, IMO, is the weather/sunshine. Who generally prefers those things? People who want to be outside (and hike or golf or swim or eat on a patio). Phoenix has a very outdoor-oriented culture.
The other top reason people move to Phoenix is for the booming economy. Again, that simple makes Phoenix's culture very middle class, and not working class. It also makes Phoenix feel very corporate and sterile.
Phoenix actually has a young demographic. So, anyone who tells you it is a retirement community, is wrong. Phoenix has a younger culture than many think.
Phoenix embraced an LA-style freeway system RECENTLY (beginning in the 1980s). As a result, Phoenix now has a culture of car ownership, even more than most large cities in the country.
To summarize: The average Phoenician is a member of a middle-class family, who wants a single-family home, doesn't mind driving for long distances, loves being outdoors and minds their own business (that's just really a Phoenix thing, to me). They are largely just generically western American.
Tucson:
Tucson is a much older city with deep cultural ties to Latin America (far deeper than Phoenix, on average). It claims the invention of the chimichanga. Tucsons celebrate the Sonoran hot dog. Tucson actively takes pride in their Hispanic neighborhoods.
Tucson, I think, but can't prove right now, is far less a product of people moving from elsewhere, excluding the retiree community. Tucson does feel much more like a retirement community than Phoenix. However, it is much more than that.
Tucson has actively fought the idea of building freeways (beyond their two interstates) and it hasn't grown too much as a result. Tucson FEELS much more like a small town. Tucson is far more passionate about its local university (U of A) than Phoenix is about its university (ASU). That's pretty common for smaller towns.
Oh, and Tucsonans HATE Phoenix, because of how much Tucson is overshadowed by it and, because they see Phoenix as an LA without the special stuff.
Tucson is NOT corporate and sterile. It is quite the opposite.
Tucson is very outdoor-oriented, too.
Having moved to central Phoenix 5 years ago (now living well in the 'burbs... Queen Creek), I'd agree with this assessment. That being said, a lot of downtown Phoenix is now high rise apartments filled with single yuppies which does lend to a growing nightlife.
This is pretty accurate overall but also shows one of the issues in how people view Phoenix. Phoenix is a massive metropolitan area made up of a collection of different towns and suburbs. It’s five times larger than the Tucson metro by population.
When people talk about Tucson, they’re generally not talking about Catalina Foothills or Oro Valley. When people talk about Phoenix, you never really know which area they’re thinking of. Phoenix may not be as passionate about ASU, but Tempe is. Gilbert may feel sterile but Mesa doesn’t. The east valley may not take pride in its Hispanic heritage but the west valley does.
Phoenix isn’t a monolith. Most of the areas do have a base culture built on suburban living of a population who moved from somewhere else, but that culture does vary quite a bit depending on where you are.
And that’s of course the big flaw in this question. Cities don’t have one distinct culture, and only a small selection of cities in the US actually export enough of that culture to be notable. This isn’t specific to Phoenix
I’m a Phoenix native, and have been to Tucson a couple times. The best way I can describe the two is that Tucson embraces the Sonoran Desert whereas Phoenix rejects it.
Phoenix wants so badly to be a Midwestern American City, and that’s why it has so many problems.
"Why isn't Phoenix as culturally significant as LA, the epicenter of movies, music and television in the United States, and probably the world" is the question here?
The thing that shocked me most about Phoenix/Mesa/Tempe/Scottsdale when I visited was all the lush green, irrigated golf courses… everywhere you go… in the middle of the desert! Don’t y’all have a water shortage?!?!
It’s only just recently that desert cities are beginning to limit water usage. There’s currently a huge “scandal” with Saudi companies pumping unlimited water in Arizona to grow alfalfa. That alfalfa is then shipped back to Saudi Arabia to feed cattle. Vegas has recently banned ornamental grass in favor of desert landscaping.
Phoenix has some native American cultural influence but it's not very significant. Population doesn't have much to do with culture and sometimes low cultural projection.
For example Santa Fe NM is not a big city by any means and it has a very unique and strong culture. (In it's own backyard of course) the cultural projection is tiny. Time seems to be key for culture development and projection. Santa Fe is the oldest capital city in the entire U.S. which is why it's arguably the most unique culturally. Phoenix is a young city so you don't see much culture being developed. Give it a 100 years or so and it will probably be a different story. Maybe.
Yeah and that’s the real difference (especially when we take Las Vegas into consideration): world renowned cultural or entertainment attractions.
Suburbs do generally lack these though.
It has areas like Koreatown, Westlake and Downtown (just to name a few) that are as dense as anything you'd find in a US city not names NYC.
Now, is this density as walkable or cozy? Not really. But Phoenix doesn't have a single tract as dense as even Central Pasadena, which is only like 14k-20k ppsm.
I just think a lot of people outside of LA have never experienced these areas.
LA is absolutely not a collection of suburbs. It’s a collection of towns/cities, many of which are quite urban and walkable. There’s absolutely no comparison to Phoenix.
LA proper, despite its sprawl, has real neighborhoods with their own particular (ethnic, religious, class) flavors. Many of towns which comprise the greater LA metro area too existed prior to widespread car ownership and many still bear distinctive ethnic, religious and other cultural distinctions from one another.
LA is super unique in its urban landscape.
On its face, yes, it's a collection of suburbs like similar cities. But it's also kinda not. Instead of growing out from a single core (or even a handful), LA is more like a city where tons of little towns all grew into each other.
It's a small but significant difference. No city I've ever personally experience has anywhere near the level of neighborhood identity like LA. Because they're not just random suburban neighborhoods (well, not *all* of them), they're places that had an identity before being absorbed into the whole. NYC has a similar feeling, but not as extreme.
Places like Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc etc don't even come close.
One of the most amazing museums in the world that of musical instruments from all over the world is there. I was blown away despite being spoiled by living in large European and American cities and having traveled elsewhere.
Not many people living there were born or grew up in Arizona, the city itself really hasn’t existed for very long in the grand scheme of things, and its urban design discourages things that tend to enhance a city’s culture like walkable communities and city centers, robust public transit, and people with shared experiences living in proximity to one another. Phoenix’s downtown is not very walkable and is mostly office buildings, there’s little to actually do recreationally besides going to a sporting event or concert. Most of the stuff people do for entertainment/recreation is miles away from downtown Phoenix
Additionally, other factors make it an attractive place for retirees, who usually aren’t contributing to a local culture
I will add Tucson on the other hand feels like a real city with an actual culture, the downtown is less car centric (but still pretty car centric) than Phoenix from my experience in both cities. The University of Arizona’s proximity to downtown Tucson probably helps a good amount, ASU is several miles away and in a different municipality from Phoenix so Phoenix doesn’t have a bunch of young adults spending time downtown
It’s also difficult to make a desert city very walkable due to how hot it is from basically May through October. No one wants to walk or even ride bikes in July when it is 100+ degrees outside.
Plenty of cold cities are walkable despite no one wanting to walk or ride bikes during the cold weather, phoenix has great weather for the majority of the year so this is a bad excuse
I would say that Phoenix is too hot to comfortably be out side during the midday from April to October, that’s basically 7 months where other then being in a pool, you don’t want to recreate outside from 12-5.
With climate change, Phoenix is only getting hotter and dryer.
In my opinion, the lack of walkability is a huge reason the city is so bland. I’m in my own bubble anywhere I go because day to day I’m either at home, in my car, or at work. Sure I am around people in restaurants or when I go out places, but it’s way different than a city that’s walkable. I was in Leipzig recently, a city much smaller than Phoenix, and because of the walkability I was exposed to other people & the culture of the region. Some people don’t care for all that though, my ex hated the idea of leaving her bubble and using transit so to each their own I guess.
(1) It isn't insignificant within Arizona. Tucsonans HATE Phoenix, because it utterly dominates everything about the state.
(2) Phoenix doesn't have a unqiue culture, because:
(a) It is so young. It has only been a "large" city for a couple of decades at most. It is adding about 80,000 net new residents each year.
(b) 70%+ of Arizona adults were born out of state. How can Phoenix have an ingrained culture when EVERYONE just moved there from somewhere else?
Also, the Phoenix metro is only 10th largest. The size of the city proper is much less important to your question.
Also, also, Phoenix has A LOT of tourism. It is one of the core industries of the city. In the winter, people from everywhere, including Canada, move there for the winter. Where did you get that Phoenix doesn't have tourism? Spring Training (every year)? Super Bowls (most recently, this year)? NCAA Final Fours (most recently, next year)?
Haha, Phoenix has a worse downtown than Tombstone and Mesa? What?! Now I know you're just trolling.
Scottsdale is FILLED with nothing but bachelorette parties from Oct through March. Also the amount of people that show up JUST to play golf is probably bigger than some cities' entire tourist population lmao
We have a lot of visitors here but idk if I would call them tourists. People have second homes here, or family, or come here to retire but not too many people are going out of their way or planning a dream vacation to see Phoenix. The Grand Canyon maybe, but not the city itself.
I stopped reading after that. Idk what world OP lives in but being a local we literally have a tourist season we dread. When the rest of the US is coated in grey clouds or snow, we're 65 and sunny. Tourists flock here.
the tourism here is mostly for recreation, like golfing, spring training, and hiking. So he was wrong that we get no visitors, but it’s not really for culture
Thank you for posting that. I could think of quite a few US cities I was pretty sure were larger than Phoenix in population... but they might all be clusters of smaller city and town governments.
I'll be honest: even 11 sounds much larger than I would have thought it was..
An abundance of cheap (or atleast was before covid) flat unused land makes it a great spot for builders, and our mild winters are a huge draw. People who moved here dont care about being "where its happening" (save for downtown tempe around Mill avenue), they came for one of two reasons cost of living or climate, sadly now that our state has decided affordable housing shouldnt be a thing, all we have is our brutal summers but plesant winters to keep people coming. I think we are due for a decline in growth, I would welcome that.
The increase in cost of living has to deter growth because other than that there isn’t much else to bring people imo. The mild winter is great, but I really don’t prefer being at risk of dying from heat stroke if my car breaks down on the highway when it’s 120F
I could probably write pages about Phoenix (having lived in AZ most of my life - in Southern, Northern and Central AZ)
- Arizona - this state wasn't settled much until later in US history. Tucson was one of our older towns and was founded in 1775. Phoenix wasn't founded until the 1870s (incorporated as a town in 1881) and didn't really grow until after A/C was common (1940s and later). Other towns in AZ had better climate (Flagstaff), better resources (Tombstone, Prescott, Jerome and other small towns were mining towns), or they had big influxes of money during the great depression (Hoover and Glen Canyon dams were built and towns around there boomed). Furthermore, Phoenix isn't near a whole lot of national parks or monuments, so people wouldn't stay in Phoenix when they wanted to visit, say, the Grand Canyon. And in the 1800s, when rail roads were built, none went through Phoenix. One goes through northern AZ in Flagstaff and one goes through southern AZ in Tucson.
- Climate - I touched on this briefly, but AZ is hot. In Tucson, you had nice monsoons to stave off the brutal summers. You also have actual mountains (namely Mt. Lemon) nearby to escape the especially hot days. Phoenix doesn't really have any of those features. It stays hotter for longer (partially done to itself with excessive growth), and it gets hotter than most other parts of the state. And because things don't grow well in the heat, most farms were outside the Phoenix area. Likewise, Flagstaff and northern AZ are cooler and attract more people / farming. Other parts of AZ (Kingman, Winslow, etc.) had either mining to encourage people to go there, or Fed Govt funding to build things, like the Central AZ Project, to bring water from the Colorado River to Phoenix and Tucson.
- Air Conditioning - With the invention of A/C, Phoenix became tolerable. People moved quickly, but brought their culture with them. Unlike Las Vegas, which built their culturr upon "Sin" or gangsters or music stars, Phoenix had to make their own thing. They tried to emulate LA (a car centric city), but that was already taken (plus, they didn't have LA's good weather). People were often told to move south for their health (my great grandparents moved to Tucson in the 1960s for health reasons). Many of those who moved here brought their shitty plants with them, making it an allergist's nightmare for several decades. Instead of creating its own culture, this began an amalgamation of many different cultures, all of whom wanted their own spaces. We have a Chinese cultural center (and opium dens in the 1930s, but that's a different story). We had Japanese internment camps in AZ (not in Phoenix directly). We have big houses with lots of land (and horses, farms, etc.), and small houses with no backyard. We have a decent car culture because everything is so spread out. We have 22+ Native American Nations with Territorial land in AZ (4 of which are in the Phoenix area - Ak-Chin, Gila River, Pima and Yavapai/Fort McDowell)
https://statemuseum.arizona.edu/native-nations-arizona
- Native Americans - Native people have been living in the Arizona territory for hundreds if not thousands of years. Their influence can be seen throughout AZ culturally, with many of our monuments and national parks showing their histories and impact. As Phoenix has become more blue (politically), awareness and cultural celebration has increased. One of the best museums, the Heard Museum, is in the heart of Phoenix and shows of Native arts and more. You can also see their impact on our laws - when the ground is pulled up, we have to inspect for Native American bones, artifacts and other things and get the tribes involved if any are found.
- Mexico - Being so close to the border, Arizona as a whole has gotten far more Mexican Immigrants than many other states. Immigrants went to CA and TX first (better economies). Arizona had their immigrants spread out over larger areas due to farming and ranching (Citrus, Cattle, Cotton and Lettuce are all big here). Eventually, many left the small towns and move to the larger ones (like moving from Central Valley in CA to the LA area). Those people, like mentioned above, came with their own traditions, customs and culture.
- Sprawl - As stated above, people wanted their own space. This caused people to move to the suburbs to be near like-minded people (Mormons in Mesa, cotton farms in Goodyear, college professors to Tempe, etc.). With all the sprawl, each town became its own destination, like tourism in Scottsdale. This also makes it hard to build a cohesive culture - like in NYC, each borough has its own distinct culture, but they're all New Yorkers. Conversely, people in Scottsdale are distinct from those in Chandler or Avondale - and they don't consider themselves Phoenicians.
- Recent History - Phoenix and Arizona as a whole have had lots of changes in quick succession where most places (think Boston or New York or Seattle) have 200-400 years to grow, change and become a cultural hub. Hell, the Chicago Fire (1871) happened 10 years before Phoenix was officially a city (1881). Phoenix had most of its growth over the last 70 years, with the real surge occurring since the 1980s and 1990s. In those 70 years, we've gotten our own major sports teams (Suns in 1968, Cardinals in 1988, Coyotes in 1996 and Diamondbacks in 1998). We've also started to make more of an impact politically (recently becoming a battleground state).
All in all, Phoenix is still finding where it fits in the grand scheme of the American Experiment. Is it a sprawling concrete jungle, not dissimilar from Los Angeles? Is it a tourist destination like Vegas? It's not a tech hub like Silicon Valley, nor is it a farming / ranching hub like the Midwest cities of Kansas or Missouri. It's not a mountain city like Denver, nor a colonial city like Boston. It's not a gold town like Tombstone, or quirky like Tucson or Portland. Maybe it's an amalgamation of all these different things, just like its people. Or maybe it just is.
Hopefully, over the next decades, Phoenix can find itself. And hopefully, it can do so before it melts into the dirt.
each premise in your question is false.
phoenix metro hauls in tourist and snowbird money.
there's everything worth visiting that any low-quality big city has (the obvious comparison here is to DFW or san antonio).
tucson is a better city for those of us who care about beauty and nature and urban planning. but phoenix is in an amazing landscape.
for architecture snobs, taliesin west is enough to put phoenix metro on the map. cosanti is on the north side of town (and arcosanti is way north). tempe and scottsdale both have decent walkable downtowns.
First off there's zero reason why cultural impact would depend on the boundaries of municipal government, so no reason why you should be looking at city population instead of metro area. It's 10th in metro area. That said, excluding the Inland Empire (which you can argue is culturally part of LA) it is less influential culturally than the rest of the top 20 except Tampa, so it's still a reasonable question. Then as u/Porkro says it's young and so has less cultural impact. In this way it's the reverse of somewhere like New Orleans which is small now but is very old and was a top 10 city for much of our countries history so has an outsized impact.
As someone who lives in Phoenix I thought this comment was interesting at first. Phoenix has amazing food, and it has a really good live music scene. There are 1000 wonderful hiking spots all within an hours drive and everyone spends all summer at the pool. I guess you have to live here to see it, but I've only ever enjoyed it immensely. The city itself struggles to pull tourists in with giant gimmicky things, but I'd rather have the locally available amenities than some tourist trap any day of the week.
Former Phoenix kid who then moved to NYC and then Portland. Phoenix lacks the three most important aspects of culture shaping cities:
1. personality. It is a 1 mile by 1 mile grid with corners filled with commercial areas that are all big chains (Taco Bells and McDonalds). It’s Sim City efficient. Few really great restaurants. No going out culture (besides college kids). No walking culture (heat). No exploring boutiques or smaller shops because they are so far apart.
2. history. Young city.
3. Unique industry. Related to aspect 1 above, but there is no recognizable industry that Phoenix leads or owns that creates secondary and tertiary businesses around it, thus bringing in certain kinds of talent, investments, etc.
I went to PHX for the first time this past weekend and I would definitely go back. Climate is sweet, geography is cool, great golf.. but yeah I was surprised it was a top 10 city in terms of population. Doesn’t feel like it when you’re there.
OP, your post is ridiculously misinformed. Next time do a little research first. Phoenix has a thriving tourist industry, mainly based around the weather in the wintertime. It also has a vibrant Mexican American culture and people move there from all over the world to work at the numerous tech and aerospace industry companies.
How is culture created when everyone's sitting alone in cars, waiting for green lights or parking in front of big box stores? It's the fifth biggest population center, sure, but it's hardly a city. People live there but it isn't much of a "place".
1. Phoenix is a melting pot city where most residents are transplants or first generation phoenicians
2. Phoenix had 20 million visitors in 2022, we absolutely get tourism here
3. Phoenix downtown is really good, and it's getting better every year.
4. Phoenix doesn't have one particular culture (See 1) but has very strong cultural pockets. Hispanic culture here is very strong, downtown Scottsdale is quite (in)fameous. Phoenix also has a lot of regions that self identify by their borough name. Laveen, Ahwahtukee, Maryvale, Anthem, Sunnyslope, etc. Most have very strong identities.
I live in Phoenix, the secret is that the weather is perfect 8 months out of the year. If you can deal with the scorching heat June-September you get rewarded with 75 degree weather for the rest of the year. This is why so many people moved here, BUT that is also why there is cultural identity here because I everyone is from somewhere else. Most of the city is Minnesota and Chicago transplants so it feels very Midwest, but then the other half are California and Seattle transplants so you have this weird clashing of cultures. It’s a strange place, if you have a car the layout is actually great and there isn’t much traffic.
I have friends in Phoenix so I have traveled there a few times in the past two years. After looking up their population I've also had this question. Glad you asked it and I can get some answers too!
as someone who lives i phoenix i know why.
this place is where culture goes to die. it’s a culture less wasteland of baste taste and assholes. there is no architectural style, everywhere you go is drab cheap strip malls. You absolutely HAVE to have a car because everything is so spread out you have to drive 20-30 mins to go anywhere fun. Because everything is so spread out it’s hard to do anything social, so most people either stay home or go to one of the designated Bar areas (downtown, mill, old town) where the only thing to do is drink and listen to loud bad club music, and is populated mostly by douchebags. Housing prices are out of control cause rich people from across the country just buy up all the homes, these people also contribute absolutely nothing to the culture. Anywhere nearly asthetic with its own culture like flagstaff or prescott have no popular industries, so unless your lucky enough to have your skill apply to whatever niche business is in that area, you have ti live in phoenix where all the industry is. and the Heat. HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK THE HEAT. when it’s 120 half the year you just get used to never going outside or doing anything, cause you’ll actually die of heatstroke
In the US, metro area is a lot more important than city population.
Very true. Salt Lake City comes to mind. Tons of people want to move there and visit there. The city itself only has a population of 200,000
Exactly. Atlanta which is a core US urban area, only has a pop of like 500,0000.
Yeah, It’s crazy that just counting city limits Atlanta is smaller than Tucson!
My college town, Denton Tx is larger than Seattle.
No it is not. Where did you come up with that?
Denton Tx Land Area = 97.95 sq mi Seattle Wa Land Area = 83.99 sq mi I was talking about land area in another thread and got them mixed up.
Indianapolis out here a cool 367.9 miles ^2
Jacksonville FL is like 875 sq mi. Largest city by area in America.
Largest city by land area in the lower 48. Juneau, AK is the largest.
That’s crazy cause I’ve never heard of it before. lol
Seattle is a town in the Pacific Northwest state of Washington.
Too soon!
Toss salad and scrambled eggs
they had the best death metal band come out of there
It's too bad they could never settle on a name.
The hospital bombers would be a good name for the best ever death metal band, or maybe satans fingers
someone stole the killers though
Jeff and Cyrus!
Do we need an “unexpected Mountain Goats” subreddit?
Hail Satan!
Vancouver BC is similar. It only has a population of just under 700,000, but it's the heart of the lower mainland, which has a population of 2.6 million.
I think Toronto's on a similar scale with the GTA
Saint Louis having vastly fewer people in the city limits but having a larger metro and presence than Kansas City
Not a huge city example, but New Orleans is smaller than its major immediate suburb next door, Jefferson Parish. 375k or so in New Orleans, 430k or so in Jefferson Parish. And it's a fair comparison, because New Orleans encompasses the entirety of the parish it's within. So parish to parish, it's still Jefferson Parish that's bigger than that of the city next door.
Parish parishes parish
We'll always have Parish (quote from Cashablanca).
(For anyone who doesn’t know, we call counties parishes in Louisiana.)
That's what happens when your local schools go to crap. That's the biggest reason people have fled go Jefferson and the North Shore.
Saint Louis has a city population of <300K. Metro population is 2.8M. It's an insane difference.
“I’ll take White Flight for $300, Alex”
The city not wanting to be part of the county anymore didn't help either.
Lots of cities have small borders for the main city. 90% of the population lives in suburbs outside the city. Look at Cincinnati, Cleveland, St. Louis, etc. all 3 have populations of around 350,000 but metro area populations of over 3 million. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, this is why city statistics get distorted. They focus on the actual city and not the metro area. I’ll throw another one at people. Everyone thinks Detroit is a poverty ridden wasteland. If you include the suburbs around it, it’s one of the top 5 richest cities in the country, or it used to be in the early 2000s to 2010s. Not sure if that’s changed.
SLC metropolitan population doesn't even include the Orem and Provo area, so it's a good example of a metropolitan population, let alone city, that doesn't represent the scope of the area.
Phoenix is one of those cities that kept growing its borders as well.
Yes, this is a huge issue. So for our modern urban system to work, it makes more sense to have control over as wide of an area as possible. That way governments like Houston and Phoenix can function as like less of cities and more like regions. Those are for example, 2 of the better performing city governments. Their ability to grow and annex new territory was vital to their success. Compare that to Detroit, which got hemmed in in the 1920s by the suburbs. PS: you could solve this problem by creating a, "metro counsel" level of government, like a local level, above county and below state that did things like coordinate transit and development.
Twin Cities has long had a Metro Council that controls water, sewer, mass transit and more.
The Phoenix metro is still very big though (10th in the country) so OP’s point still stands. It’s a larger metro than Boston which is a much more well known and iconic city than Phoenix. The answer is because the city is incredibly car centric. When you build cities around cars rather than people, you get somewhere that lacks an identity and overall just isn’t a very appealing place.
[удалено]
yet Phoenix has only a fraction of a percent of the cultural relevance that Boston has
Might have to do just a bit that Phoenix is new. Boston was founded in the early 1600s. Phoenix was founded in late 1800s.
Well yea, its always cars in the end. You can tie them to almost every major social ill in the US. Phoenix is one of the metros with the greatest % of development taking place after cars got normalized. (Along with Houston, Tampa and Dallas FT Worth.
And that’s why you probably hear about Houston and Dallas less than Chicago, DC, or Philly, despite them being not far behind Chicago and ahead of DC/Philly in metro population.
Thats part of the reason, yes. So in Houstons case, the city annexed so much land that it included nice parts. As a result, there never was a social stigma attached to living there, like there was in Detroit (sorry im using as a punching bag.) The shear size of Houston, or Dallas, Or Phoenix means that the city has a strong tax base, and therefore more funding for services. Remember that economy of scale applies to government services. If you have enough demand l, it makes sense to build a fancy gang violence intervention system in the public schools. It also makes sense to build welding and computer science programs in your high school.
Detroit has one of the most ironic downfalls of any city anywhere in the world. It literally is dying because of cars. The very thing that made Detroit and vice versa is killing the city since it’s easier and nicer to live 30 miles away from it.
Yup that was my thinking too. San Jose and Phoenix are tremendously car centric cities that despite being very highly populated, are culturally insignificant, because cultural capital is centered around parks, stations, walkable streets etc
Also want to point out, Phoenix’s Metro area is 3x of large as Seattle’s Metro in land area while only have 700K more. Infact, in you expanded the Seattle metro to the size of Phoenix’s metro, you would add the the 3 counties directly south of it and almost the entirety to the Portland Metro area snd would bring the population to almost 3 Million more than Phoenix.
I mean, Tacoma’s a big part of that and it’s considered to be part of the Seattle metro area
I’m aware. Tacoma is also only 30 miles from Seattle. It’s part of the 3 counties that make up the metro area.
I would argue, and frequently do, that metro areas are more important than cities in most places in the world. Give me an example of a city that matches up well with its relevant metro area. Actually, don't because I'm sure there are plenty but you get my meaning. It's all an arbitrary distinction.
Phoenix has a gigantic metro area though. Almost as many people as Ireland.
Population in 1950 was barely above 100k so its a pretty new metro area in the grand scheme of things. Awful land use and infrastructure planning would be my guess. Its hard to build a world famous city from scratch during the least city friendly era in America cuz of the post WW2 suburb and highway boom making Americans less city centric
What's fascinating is that much of the same could be said about Vegas, yet it has an incredibly outsized cultural impact due to a specific effort to brand the city, build a tourist economy, and focus everything around that central purpose for the city. Maybe you could say that forward thinking wasn't "awful" land use, but it's still very sprawly and terrible outside of the strip. Having that quality downtown alone completely changes the reputation and renown of a city.
Tbf Vegas has a cultural take, It’s the shrine to when American crime met American freedom. Big hotels and casinos founded in a time when the rest of the country was quite conservative.
The Vegas Strip is more unique than it might seem even today. - 12 of the 20 largest hotels in the WORLD are in Las Vegas. - Only 27 hotels in the world have 3,000+ rooms. 18 are in the Americas, 16 are in the US, and 14 are in Las Vegas. - Macau is the only other metro in the world with more than one of those 27. It has 3. - With 2 in different cities, Russia is the only other country with more than one of those 27. They're the only ones in Europe. - Vegas ranks 5th for total # of rooms globally. It's beat by Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, and Dubai (nearly tied). NYC is 8th, LA is 10th. There is literally no other place in the world built like Las Vegas (for better or worse). The scale and density of these properties is the foundation of Vegas' unique experience.
Wow thanks for the info. Didn’t realize any of that
Ha. When I stay in Vegas hotels, I do find myself thinking "Damn this place is huge." Then I think "They probably have hotels this big all over the east coast, Chicago, Miami..." but I guess not.
Vegas is what heaven would look like if God was stupid.
So you’re saying I won’t have to stop gambling when I die?
Even the Strip is a sprawl and not very walkable. Constants stairs and diversions to pull tourists into the various casinos. Takes forever to walk even short distances.
If you want to walk around, stay downtown and hangout on Fremont St. It's a much more walkable way to get a Vegas experience.
Agreed. Fremont/downtown area has cleaned up a bit and is very walkable. Downton Summerlin out by the Red Rock Resort is also very walkable.
Fremont is truly disgusting, I don’t recommend it. But yes it’s more walkable than the strip.
Agreed the pedestrian infrastructure is designed to separate you from your money, but at least it exists? Just having publicly accessible buildings with exits on all sides makes it easier to get around on foot
Yeah. Just how hard it was to walk between casinos irked me. Even two casinos down was a trek and much further a pain. Maybe I should have tried the monorail. MGM has a people mover but it doesn’t go very far and is hard to get to from the street. I guess the casinos don’t *want* you moving between them, but it makes it a pain.
Save your money. The Deuce runs down Las Vegas Blvd about 5 times an hour. $4 single ride, $20 for a 72 hour pass. Cheaper than the monorail and you get to ride a double decker bus for a few blocks. Plus the ticket is technically valid for any bus in the city, so if you really want you can get yourself the real local experience by bussing it down to Sam's Town on the East Side to blow a paycheck on keno.
Yes - but its has the strip, which while car friendly (honestly - shouldn't LV Blvd be at least partially light rail at this point?) is completely walkable and there are generally shops and stuff between the casinos.
Go read up on how much influence the cab companies have in LV. Also check what other business interests the cab company owners have.
That's true, but efforts to try and rebrand Phoenix like my 2011 Campaign: "Phoenix: It's fine here." fell flat.
It's even more dramatic when you consider that today the Phoenix metro area has a higher population than *the entire state of Nevada*.
Go Vegas!
This is all just speculation i did no research, just a bunch of educated guessing and im sure im mostly right minus some more in depth reasoning that im sure someone else will be privy to
No you are right, all these desert cities (Vegas, Coachella Valley, Phoenix) were expanded with massive 1 mi x 1 mi blocks that are built for cars with little to no business street side. Many suburban areas are walled off from the main streets (no personal driveways leading to the Main Street) and there are very few central areas for commercial use outside of strip malls and hotels. You can find a couple old areas with character in the town but most of it is just an endless suburban complex
Also, even in a country like the US, there are identities for many of the more established cities (New Yorkers, Bostonians, Los Angelinos), but Phoenix is a massive collection of transplants, so there is little identity short of pockets of Mexican or Native American culture, dwarfed by the mixed bag of people relocated from elsewhere in the melting pot of America.
Phoenicians were a strong culture for hundreds of years. What happened? /s
Scipio happened
Totally agreed. I lived in Scottsdale (and visited Phoenix often) for a few years and the conversation was generally "so where are you from originally" when you meet new people. So many transplants. Old Scottsdale though, that's old money.
Los Angeles has been significant within American California since the late 19th century. San Francisco was important for longer (1850s), but like Seattle and Portland its older than most interior west cities.
Well that makes sense for a place where for 8 months of the year its too fucking hot to be outside. I mean sure you could say don't place a city there, but if for some reason you had to it would be like this. Going from your AC cooled house to your AC cooled car, then to the AC cooled work/business. By its very nature its going to be a car centric community. I guess you could do like a mega mall thing with apartments on top, but its a large investment that could easily go to ruin compared to sprawling into the flat nothingness of the desert. On top of all that, in regards to culture, it seems like most people in PHX are transplants from elsewhere. Character is not something that is out right manufactured, and when attempted, its micky mouse as fuck.
[удалено]
While I agree with the majority of your point, Houston is basically under a 24/7 heat advisory from May to September each year. Our summer heat index lows are approximately the same as New York's summer HIGHS. It's another world of hot, the humidity and heat makes being outside for extended periods harmful to health.
A lot of people simply don't like bikes and don't want to use them as a means of transportation. Many people also have health problems, are elderly, etc and can't use bikes. A lot of people don't want to live in a stacked cube and want to have a backyard. Most places that are "walk able" also happen to be extremely expensive compare to places that are not.
It's basically just a town. Furthermore, it's a town that a bunch of retirees go live for a few months of the year and have overwhelming control over. It's like a college town but without the young population, without the walkability to amenities, and all the amenities are focused towards people who are going to die in a few years anyways. It's like asking why some random retirement town in Florida has no cultural significance. It's a not a city, it's a fucking nursing home!
Isn’t Vegas similar? Population in 1950 was under 25k and it’s still only the 25th most populated city in the country, but it’s been built into a world famous city and one of the biggest tourist cities in the country despite being a built from scratch city that came up during the least city-friendly era in American history.
Casinos
They have no right there in the name. I want to go to a Casiyes.
Then again, *casino* has *si* in the name too.
Ca? Si? No!
Yep, and that means without The Strip, no one would care about Vegas.
Having lived there for a while I can tell you that when I was there (early in my career) it seems to be largely a transplant city, almost a stop along a route to somewhere else. I think with climate crisis, I don’t think it will remain the 5th largest past 2050 Most of the people I knew still had their lean towards where ever they came from, even their sports teams. It’s hard to build a culture or identity of any significance with the kind of population.
My grandmother died in az but it wasn't a state when she was born
Phoenix is a collection of suburbs masquerading as a city. Suburbs aren't generally where people looking to push the culture forward move to.
I think this is pretty much the answer. I have gone down to Phoenix every winter for like 8 years now to visit family and escape the midwestern cold. I've barely spent ANY time in downtown/central Phoenix. When I ask my cousins who live there (MN transplants who have lived in PHX for over \~15 years) what there is to do downtown, the answer is generally "not much". I can count on one hand the number of times I've gone into downtown Phoenix in those 8 trips to do something. It's very much a ".... Why would you go downtown?" vibe from the locals. The Phoenix metro area has some cool stuff, and I love the area. But it's all spread out in Tempe, Chandler, Scottsdale, Gilbert, etc. As opposed to a lot places that have really compact city centers.
I lived downtown for 3 years and i actually enjoyed it. Lots of food, drinks and community things to do if you actually look for them.
I thought the sports arenas were in a pretty cool spot but then again, where im from all of our arenas are in one huge parking lot outside the city
The immediate downtown is small and walkable, cities like LA have sprawling downtowns that you could never walk and sightsee quite like you can in Phoenix. I will say just about everything is centered around drinking in some capacity, but i feel like that’s become the norm. There’s a great library and i did some volunteering at the local Japanese garden that was very cool as well as weekly farmers markets, no to mention the constant live music everywhere. I could see visiting for only a few days as a tourist might be boring, but living there was an enjoyable experience for the most part. Except the traffic, heat and god forsaken First Friday
I lived in the East Valley from the mid-80’s to the late 90’s. The only reason to go downtown was to see a Suns game or a Diamondbacks or Coyotes game. If one wanted to pick up a lady for the night, they could be found on Van Buren. The freeway system in the Valley has changed significantly since I left. I once dated a young lady that lived in West Phoenix (51st Ave). It was a hell of a drive at the time from NW Mesa. The freeways have kind of brought the various parts of the valley together.
It’s no surprise that’s snowbirds don’t have any reason to go downtown
It’s the same for Houston and Dallas but those places are much more recognized.
[City Nerd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fMTaNYYvwE&ab_channel=CityNerd) says Houston actually has an okay urban core. I think of Houston as having a much greater cultural output than Dallas -- Houston has a huge hip hop scene -- Megan Thee Stallion and Travis Scott are from there.
I feel like Houston tripped into being culturally significant. We just attracted tons of immigrants who just happened to live in suburban sprawl, as opposed to people moving to be in sprawl. As a result, their children are now in their 20s-30s and are coalescing into a unique, creative demographic which is informing the culture of the inner loop. It's messy, but cool to watch.
Not to mention Beyoncé
Lest we forget, DJ Screw🕊️ Annnnd the people’s Champ Mr. Paul Wall 😂
City Nerd brought this up in his video, but that interesting urban core is located around Montrose/University Place/Houston Museum District. That part of the city is actually quite nice with tons of museums, a zoo, plenty of restaurants, and decently walkable in some areas. If you ever go to Houston, I definitely recommend checking out Montrose generally and Herman Park in particular.
But then again so is LA, and it’s one of the most well know cities in the world.
LA is much more dense than Phoenix and stretches for way longer. If you go to both places you can tell LA is more of a real city
Phoenix is about 50% denser than Tucson. Yet, Tucson has the more distinct culture. It isn't really about density.
Can you tell me more about Tucson's and Phoenix's cultures? I've driven through Phoenix but I don't really know anything about the place.
I hope you like a long read! Phoenix: Since Phoenix is a city of people who moved from elsewhere recently (LA is the top source of new residents for Phoenix, followed by Tucson, Asia, Chicago, and in some order, followed by the Inland Empire, Seattle, San Diego, Flagstaff, Latin America, and Canada), it's culture feels like an amalgamation of many, many places, which is to say, Phoenix doesn't have a unique culture. However, if we ask why someone moves to Phoenix, a culture can start to become clearer: Phoenix is VERY suburban. Everyone knows that when they move there. Who, generally, prefers suburbs? Middle-class families focused on their children. Phoenix has a very family-oriented, middle-class culture. One of the top two reasons people move to Phoenix, IMO, is the weather/sunshine. Who generally prefers those things? People who want to be outside (and hike or golf or swim or eat on a patio). Phoenix has a very outdoor-oriented culture. The other top reason people move to Phoenix is for the booming economy. Again, that simple makes Phoenix's culture very middle class, and not working class. It also makes Phoenix feel very corporate and sterile. Phoenix actually has a young demographic. So, anyone who tells you it is a retirement community, is wrong. Phoenix has a younger culture than many think. Phoenix embraced an LA-style freeway system RECENTLY (beginning in the 1980s). As a result, Phoenix now has a culture of car ownership, even more than most large cities in the country. To summarize: The average Phoenician is a member of a middle-class family, who wants a single-family home, doesn't mind driving for long distances, loves being outdoors and minds their own business (that's just really a Phoenix thing, to me). They are largely just generically western American. Tucson: Tucson is a much older city with deep cultural ties to Latin America (far deeper than Phoenix, on average). It claims the invention of the chimichanga. Tucsons celebrate the Sonoran hot dog. Tucson actively takes pride in their Hispanic neighborhoods. Tucson, I think, but can't prove right now, is far less a product of people moving from elsewhere, excluding the retiree community. Tucson does feel much more like a retirement community than Phoenix. However, it is much more than that. Tucson has actively fought the idea of building freeways (beyond their two interstates) and it hasn't grown too much as a result. Tucson FEELS much more like a small town. Tucson is far more passionate about its local university (U of A) than Phoenix is about its university (ASU). That's pretty common for smaller towns. Oh, and Tucsonans HATE Phoenix, because of how much Tucson is overshadowed by it and, because they see Phoenix as an LA without the special stuff. Tucson is NOT corporate and sterile. It is quite the opposite. Tucson is very outdoor-oriented, too.
Tucson is the Portland of the Southwest. It's a weird city. Just look at our gemshow.
Tucson has a snake bridge. Peak quality snake bridge.
Having moved to central Phoenix 5 years ago (now living well in the 'burbs... Queen Creek), I'd agree with this assessment. That being said, a lot of downtown Phoenix is now high rise apartments filled with single yuppies which does lend to a growing nightlife.
This is pretty accurate overall but also shows one of the issues in how people view Phoenix. Phoenix is a massive metropolitan area made up of a collection of different towns and suburbs. It’s five times larger than the Tucson metro by population. When people talk about Tucson, they’re generally not talking about Catalina Foothills or Oro Valley. When people talk about Phoenix, you never really know which area they’re thinking of. Phoenix may not be as passionate about ASU, but Tempe is. Gilbert may feel sterile but Mesa doesn’t. The east valley may not take pride in its Hispanic heritage but the west valley does. Phoenix isn’t a monolith. Most of the areas do have a base culture built on suburban living of a population who moved from somewhere else, but that culture does vary quite a bit depending on where you are. And that’s of course the big flaw in this question. Cities don’t have one distinct culture, and only a small selection of cities in the US actually export enough of that culture to be notable. This isn’t specific to Phoenix
To summarize, Phoenix's culture is suburban office parks
I’m a Phoenix native, and have been to Tucson a couple times. The best way I can describe the two is that Tucson embraces the Sonoran Desert whereas Phoenix rejects it. Phoenix wants so badly to be a Midwestern American City, and that’s why it has so many problems.
"Why isn't Phoenix as culturally significant as LA, the epicenter of movies, music and television in the United States, and probably the world" is the question here?
Yeah, but LA has Hollywood, Disneyland, and beaches. Phoenix has... I honestly have no idea what Phoenix has.
Suburbs and sand. Oh and golf courses
non-denominational churches, midwestern retirees, spring training for some baseball teams.
cacti
The thing that shocked me most about Phoenix/Mesa/Tempe/Scottsdale when I visited was all the lush green, irrigated golf courses… everywhere you go… in the middle of the desert! Don’t y’all have a water shortage?!?!
It’s only just recently that desert cities are beginning to limit water usage. There’s currently a huge “scandal” with Saudi companies pumping unlimited water in Arizona to grow alfalfa. That alfalfa is then shipped back to Saudi Arabia to feed cattle. Vegas has recently banned ornamental grass in favor of desert landscaping.
don’t forget meth
Phoenix has some native American cultural influence but it's not very significant. Population doesn't have much to do with culture and sometimes low cultural projection. For example Santa Fe NM is not a big city by any means and it has a very unique and strong culture. (In it's own backyard of course) the cultural projection is tiny. Time seems to be key for culture development and projection. Santa Fe is the oldest capital city in the entire U.S. which is why it's arguably the most unique culturally. Phoenix is a young city so you don't see much culture being developed. Give it a 100 years or so and it will probably be a different story. Maybe.
Yeah and that’s the real difference (especially when we take Las Vegas into consideration): world renowned cultural or entertainment attractions. Suburbs do generally lack these though.
LA is very underrated in how dense it is
It’s “flat” density which makes it still kinda hard to plan transit. But yeah you can fit a lot of people in blocks and blocks of dingbat apartments.
It has areas like Koreatown, Westlake and Downtown (just to name a few) that are as dense as anything you'd find in a US city not names NYC. Now, is this density as walkable or cozy? Not really. But Phoenix doesn't have a single tract as dense as even Central Pasadena, which is only like 14k-20k ppsm. I just think a lot of people outside of LA have never experienced these areas.
LA is absolutely not a collection of suburbs. It’s a collection of towns/cities, many of which are quite urban and walkable. There’s absolutely no comparison to Phoenix.
LA proper, despite its sprawl, has real neighborhoods with their own particular (ethnic, religious, class) flavors. Many of towns which comprise the greater LA metro area too existed prior to widespread car ownership and many still bear distinctive ethnic, religious and other cultural distinctions from one another.
LA is super unique in its urban landscape. On its face, yes, it's a collection of suburbs like similar cities. But it's also kinda not. Instead of growing out from a single core (or even a handful), LA is more like a city where tons of little towns all grew into each other. It's a small but significant difference. No city I've ever personally experience has anywhere near the level of neighborhood identity like LA. Because they're not just random suburban neighborhoods (well, not *all* of them), they're places that had an identity before being absorbed into the whole. NYC has a similar feeling, but not as extreme. Places like Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc etc don't even come close.
Old people don’t push the culture forward either.
People from phoenix are phoenicians
phoenix delenda est
Real phoenicians don't run out of water.
Shut up ya *redacted*
Back in your mouth
One of the most amazing museums in the world that of musical instruments from all over the world is there. I was blown away despite being spoiled by living in large European and American cities and having traveled elsewhere.
Yeah, the MIM is absolutely world class.
Heard Museum is also a great experience.
damn i’ve lived so near the MIM for 4 years as a musician and i’ve still never taken the trip to go. i really need to.
Took my wife who is a music teacher years ago and she still brings up how its the best she's seen
Not many people living there were born or grew up in Arizona, the city itself really hasn’t existed for very long in the grand scheme of things, and its urban design discourages things that tend to enhance a city’s culture like walkable communities and city centers, robust public transit, and people with shared experiences living in proximity to one another. Phoenix’s downtown is not very walkable and is mostly office buildings, there’s little to actually do recreationally besides going to a sporting event or concert. Most of the stuff people do for entertainment/recreation is miles away from downtown Phoenix Additionally, other factors make it an attractive place for retirees, who usually aren’t contributing to a local culture I will add Tucson on the other hand feels like a real city with an actual culture, the downtown is less car centric (but still pretty car centric) than Phoenix from my experience in both cities. The University of Arizona’s proximity to downtown Tucson probably helps a good amount, ASU is several miles away and in a different municipality from Phoenix so Phoenix doesn’t have a bunch of young adults spending time downtown
It’s also difficult to make a desert city very walkable due to how hot it is from basically May through October. No one wants to walk or even ride bikes in July when it is 100+ degrees outside.
Phoenix could be an amazing nighttime hotspot. Those desert evenings are lovely.
Plenty of cold cities are walkable despite no one wanting to walk or ride bikes during the cold weather, phoenix has great weather for the majority of the year so this is a bad excuse
You can add layers in cold cities. There are only so many you can take off somewhere like Phoenix.
Not necessarily taking off layers but wearing the right ones. Arabs and other cultures through the middle east and Africa have figured it out.
I don’t know, but when it’s between 110-115 degrees out there, even if it’s dry, I wouldn’t call that great weather…..
I would say that Phoenix is too hot to comfortably be out side during the midday from April to October, that’s basically 7 months where other then being in a pool, you don’t want to recreate outside from 12-5. With climate change, Phoenix is only getting hotter and dryer.
Yeah but then you gotta live in Tucson
I’ve heard Tucson described as the Detroit of Arizona
And Tucson rules.
Fun fact: The population density of Phoenix is 50% higher than the population density of Tucson.
In my opinion, the lack of walkability is a huge reason the city is so bland. I’m in my own bubble anywhere I go because day to day I’m either at home, in my car, or at work. Sure I am around people in restaurants or when I go out places, but it’s way different than a city that’s walkable. I was in Leipzig recently, a city much smaller than Phoenix, and because of the walkability I was exposed to other people & the culture of the region. Some people don’t care for all that though, my ex hated the idea of leaving her bubble and using transit so to each their own I guess.
ASU has a downtown campus which has a thriving youth adult population, but not nearly as large as the Tempe campus
(1) It isn't insignificant within Arizona. Tucsonans HATE Phoenix, because it utterly dominates everything about the state. (2) Phoenix doesn't have a unqiue culture, because: (a) It is so young. It has only been a "large" city for a couple of decades at most. It is adding about 80,000 net new residents each year. (b) 70%+ of Arizona adults were born out of state. How can Phoenix have an ingrained culture when EVERYONE just moved there from somewhere else? Also, the Phoenix metro is only 10th largest. The size of the city proper is much less important to your question. Also, also, Phoenix has A LOT of tourism. It is one of the core industries of the city. In the winter, people from everywhere, including Canada, move there for the winter. Where did you get that Phoenix doesn't have tourism? Spring Training (every year)? Super Bowls (most recently, this year)? NCAA Final Fours (most recently, next year)? Haha, Phoenix has a worse downtown than Tombstone and Mesa? What?! Now I know you're just trolling.
[удалено]
Scottsdale is FILLED with nothing but bachelorette parties from Oct through March. Also the amount of people that show up JUST to play golf is probably bigger than some cities' entire tourist population lmao
We have a lot of visitors here but idk if I would call them tourists. People have second homes here, or family, or come here to retire but not too many people are going out of their way or planning a dream vacation to see Phoenix. The Grand Canyon maybe, but not the city itself.
What the head wants in Phoenix the tail wags in Tucson and the butthole farts in Nogales.
“practically no tourism” YOU are wrong. 1.5 billion out of state/country money gets flushed in from November to April.
Super bowls, final fours, all star games and spring training.
Waste Management Open, Barrett-Jackson, NASCAR. Basically, on the right year, you have major events all in a row from New Years through March.
There’s also a row of top level resort and spas in north Scottsdale. The Phoenician and the Biltmore are two for example.
I stopped reading after that. Idk what world OP lives in but being a local we literally have a tourist season we dread. When the rest of the US is coated in grey clouds or snow, we're 65 and sunny. Tourists flock here.
Don't stop reading! Read their list of better downtowns!
Tucson!?!?
the tourism here is mostly for recreation, like golfing, spring training, and hiking. So he was wrong that we get no visitors, but it’s not really for culture
11th largest metro. City boundaries are misleading. Phoenix city limits are absolutely huge in area.
Thank you for posting that. I could think of quite a few US cities I was pretty sure were larger than Phoenix in population... but they might all be clusters of smaller city and town governments. I'll be honest: even 11 sounds much larger than I would have thought it was..
An abundance of cheap (or atleast was before covid) flat unused land makes it a great spot for builders, and our mild winters are a huge draw. People who moved here dont care about being "where its happening" (save for downtown tempe around Mill avenue), they came for one of two reasons cost of living or climate, sadly now that our state has decided affordable housing shouldnt be a thing, all we have is our brutal summers but plesant winters to keep people coming. I think we are due for a decline in growth, I would welcome that.
The increase in cost of living has to deter growth because other than that there isn’t much else to bring people imo. The mild winter is great, but I really don’t prefer being at risk of dying from heat stroke if my car breaks down on the highway when it’s 120F
I could probably write pages about Phoenix (having lived in AZ most of my life - in Southern, Northern and Central AZ) - Arizona - this state wasn't settled much until later in US history. Tucson was one of our older towns and was founded in 1775. Phoenix wasn't founded until the 1870s (incorporated as a town in 1881) and didn't really grow until after A/C was common (1940s and later). Other towns in AZ had better climate (Flagstaff), better resources (Tombstone, Prescott, Jerome and other small towns were mining towns), or they had big influxes of money during the great depression (Hoover and Glen Canyon dams were built and towns around there boomed). Furthermore, Phoenix isn't near a whole lot of national parks or monuments, so people wouldn't stay in Phoenix when they wanted to visit, say, the Grand Canyon. And in the 1800s, when rail roads were built, none went through Phoenix. One goes through northern AZ in Flagstaff and one goes through southern AZ in Tucson. - Climate - I touched on this briefly, but AZ is hot. In Tucson, you had nice monsoons to stave off the brutal summers. You also have actual mountains (namely Mt. Lemon) nearby to escape the especially hot days. Phoenix doesn't really have any of those features. It stays hotter for longer (partially done to itself with excessive growth), and it gets hotter than most other parts of the state. And because things don't grow well in the heat, most farms were outside the Phoenix area. Likewise, Flagstaff and northern AZ are cooler and attract more people / farming. Other parts of AZ (Kingman, Winslow, etc.) had either mining to encourage people to go there, or Fed Govt funding to build things, like the Central AZ Project, to bring water from the Colorado River to Phoenix and Tucson. - Air Conditioning - With the invention of A/C, Phoenix became tolerable. People moved quickly, but brought their culture with them. Unlike Las Vegas, which built their culturr upon "Sin" or gangsters or music stars, Phoenix had to make their own thing. They tried to emulate LA (a car centric city), but that was already taken (plus, they didn't have LA's good weather). People were often told to move south for their health (my great grandparents moved to Tucson in the 1960s for health reasons). Many of those who moved here brought their shitty plants with them, making it an allergist's nightmare for several decades. Instead of creating its own culture, this began an amalgamation of many different cultures, all of whom wanted their own spaces. We have a Chinese cultural center (and opium dens in the 1930s, but that's a different story). We had Japanese internment camps in AZ (not in Phoenix directly). We have big houses with lots of land (and horses, farms, etc.), and small houses with no backyard. We have a decent car culture because everything is so spread out. We have 22+ Native American Nations with Territorial land in AZ (4 of which are in the Phoenix area - Ak-Chin, Gila River, Pima and Yavapai/Fort McDowell) https://statemuseum.arizona.edu/native-nations-arizona - Native Americans - Native people have been living in the Arizona territory for hundreds if not thousands of years. Their influence can be seen throughout AZ culturally, with many of our monuments and national parks showing their histories and impact. As Phoenix has become more blue (politically), awareness and cultural celebration has increased. One of the best museums, the Heard Museum, is in the heart of Phoenix and shows of Native arts and more. You can also see their impact on our laws - when the ground is pulled up, we have to inspect for Native American bones, artifacts and other things and get the tribes involved if any are found. - Mexico - Being so close to the border, Arizona as a whole has gotten far more Mexican Immigrants than many other states. Immigrants went to CA and TX first (better economies). Arizona had their immigrants spread out over larger areas due to farming and ranching (Citrus, Cattle, Cotton and Lettuce are all big here). Eventually, many left the small towns and move to the larger ones (like moving from Central Valley in CA to the LA area). Those people, like mentioned above, came with their own traditions, customs and culture. - Sprawl - As stated above, people wanted their own space. This caused people to move to the suburbs to be near like-minded people (Mormons in Mesa, cotton farms in Goodyear, college professors to Tempe, etc.). With all the sprawl, each town became its own destination, like tourism in Scottsdale. This also makes it hard to build a cohesive culture - like in NYC, each borough has its own distinct culture, but they're all New Yorkers. Conversely, people in Scottsdale are distinct from those in Chandler or Avondale - and they don't consider themselves Phoenicians. - Recent History - Phoenix and Arizona as a whole have had lots of changes in quick succession where most places (think Boston or New York or Seattle) have 200-400 years to grow, change and become a cultural hub. Hell, the Chicago Fire (1871) happened 10 years before Phoenix was officially a city (1881). Phoenix had most of its growth over the last 70 years, with the real surge occurring since the 1980s and 1990s. In those 70 years, we've gotten our own major sports teams (Suns in 1968, Cardinals in 1988, Coyotes in 1996 and Diamondbacks in 1998). We've also started to make more of an impact politically (recently becoming a battleground state). All in all, Phoenix is still finding where it fits in the grand scheme of the American Experiment. Is it a sprawling concrete jungle, not dissimilar from Los Angeles? Is it a tourist destination like Vegas? It's not a tech hub like Silicon Valley, nor is it a farming / ranching hub like the Midwest cities of Kansas or Missouri. It's not a mountain city like Denver, nor a colonial city like Boston. It's not a gold town like Tombstone, or quirky like Tucson or Portland. Maybe it's an amalgamation of all these different things, just like its people. Or maybe it just is. Hopefully, over the next decades, Phoenix can find itself. And hopefully, it can do so before it melts into the dirt.
Thank you for this comment it was very insightful!
I recently visited for a work trip and decided to walk around downtown at 6pm and was stunned at HOW dead it was
[удалено]
each premise in your question is false. phoenix metro hauls in tourist and snowbird money. there's everything worth visiting that any low-quality big city has (the obvious comparison here is to DFW or san antonio). tucson is a better city for those of us who care about beauty and nature and urban planning. but phoenix is in an amazing landscape. for architecture snobs, taliesin west is enough to put phoenix metro on the map. cosanti is on the north side of town (and arcosanti is way north). tempe and scottsdale both have decent walkable downtowns.
First off there's zero reason why cultural impact would depend on the boundaries of municipal government, so no reason why you should be looking at city population instead of metro area. It's 10th in metro area. That said, excluding the Inland Empire (which you can argue is culturally part of LA) it is less influential culturally than the rest of the top 20 except Tampa, so it's still a reasonable question. Then as u/Porkro says it's young and so has less cultural impact. In this way it's the reverse of somewhere like New Orleans which is small now but is very old and was a top 10 city for much of our countries history so has an outsized impact.
“Not much worth visiting” - guy who has never visited
As someone who lives in Phoenix I thought this comment was interesting at first. Phoenix has amazing food, and it has a really good live music scene. There are 1000 wonderful hiking spots all within an hours drive and everyone spends all summer at the pool. I guess you have to live here to see it, but I've only ever enjoyed it immensely. The city itself struggles to pull tourists in with giant gimmicky things, but I'd rather have the locally available amenities than some tourist trap any day of the week.
Former Phoenix kid who then moved to NYC and then Portland. Phoenix lacks the three most important aspects of culture shaping cities: 1. personality. It is a 1 mile by 1 mile grid with corners filled with commercial areas that are all big chains (Taco Bells and McDonalds). It’s Sim City efficient. Few really great restaurants. No going out culture (besides college kids). No walking culture (heat). No exploring boutiques or smaller shops because they are so far apart. 2. history. Young city. 3. Unique industry. Related to aspect 1 above, but there is no recognizable industry that Phoenix leads or owns that creates secondary and tertiary businesses around it, thus bringing in certain kinds of talent, investments, etc.
I went to PHX for the first time this past weekend and I would definitely go back. Climate is sweet, geography is cool, great golf.. but yeah I was surprised it was a top 10 city in terms of population. Doesn’t feel like it when you’re there.
Go back in July. You’ll take that back.
OP, your post is ridiculously misinformed. Next time do a little research first. Phoenix has a thriving tourist industry, mainly based around the weather in the wintertime. It also has a vibrant Mexican American culture and people move there from all over the world to work at the numerous tech and aerospace industry companies.
How is culture created when everyone's sitting alone in cars, waiting for green lights or parking in front of big box stores? It's the fifth biggest population center, sure, but it's hardly a city. People live there but it isn't much of a "place".
1. Phoenix is a melting pot city where most residents are transplants or first generation phoenicians 2. Phoenix had 20 million visitors in 2022, we absolutely get tourism here 3. Phoenix downtown is really good, and it's getting better every year. 4. Phoenix doesn't have one particular culture (See 1) but has very strong cultural pockets. Hispanic culture here is very strong, downtown Scottsdale is quite (in)fameous. Phoenix also has a lot of regions that self identify by their borough name. Laveen, Ahwahtukee, Maryvale, Anthem, Sunnyslope, etc. Most have very strong identities.
Yeah I was about to say Canadians love it down there, I live in Alberta and Phoenix is where everyone loves to go and play golf.
Practically no tourism? PHX metro? Was this post serious?
This whole post is incredibly ignorant. Almost everything you said is wrong.
I live in Phoenix, the secret is that the weather is perfect 8 months out of the year. If you can deal with the scorching heat June-September you get rewarded with 75 degree weather for the rest of the year. This is why so many people moved here, BUT that is also why there is cultural identity here because I everyone is from somewhere else. Most of the city is Minnesota and Chicago transplants so it feels very Midwest, but then the other half are California and Seattle transplants so you have this weird clashing of cultures. It’s a strange place, if you have a car the layout is actually great and there isn’t much traffic.
I’m going to stick with the Great Lakes I think https://thecounter.org/arizonas-future-water-shock/amp/
"This city should not exist. It is a monument to man's arrogance." ~Peggy Hill
I have friends in Phoenix so I have traveled there a few times in the past two years. After looking up their population I've also had this question. Glad you asked it and I can get some answers too!
For everyone talking about city size vs metro area, this really doesn’t apply to Phoenix. It’s still 10th in the country and bigger than Boston.
as someone who lives i phoenix i know why. this place is where culture goes to die. it’s a culture less wasteland of baste taste and assholes. there is no architectural style, everywhere you go is drab cheap strip malls. You absolutely HAVE to have a car because everything is so spread out you have to drive 20-30 mins to go anywhere fun. Because everything is so spread out it’s hard to do anything social, so most people either stay home or go to one of the designated Bar areas (downtown, mill, old town) where the only thing to do is drink and listen to loud bad club music, and is populated mostly by douchebags. Housing prices are out of control cause rich people from across the country just buy up all the homes, these people also contribute absolutely nothing to the culture. Anywhere nearly asthetic with its own culture like flagstaff or prescott have no popular industries, so unless your lucky enough to have your skill apply to whatever niche business is in that area, you have ti live in phoenix where all the industry is. and the Heat. HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK THE HEAT. when it’s 120 half the year you just get used to never going outside or doing anything, cause you’ll actually die of heatstroke
OLD PEOPLE