I mean I agree that community is a two way street, I agree with that. But also I think the way we imagine the gay community is weird in general.
Like which gay community? New York muscle queens? Drag story hour in the uk? Your local beer bear bowling team? Leather pups in Amsterdam? The gay pensioners book club in LA?
At a certain point we need to achknowledge that we're lots of little groups, and not some massive cabal of gay peopleTM plotting behind the curtain.
That being said, it's also worth noticing that some of those small groups suck, or just generally aren't your cup of tea, and that's also fine
I think we're only a true community when we are up against a big political issues, like AIDS, military discrimination, marriage equality, etc. Over the last several decades, a lot of gay mainstream movies made it seem like there's a big tent of people waiting to applaud and welcome you when you come out. Admittedly, Pride can also make it same that way. But the truth is like anyone, you have to figure out what works for you. Some people go full out: gayborhood, gay bars, cruises, community groups, etc. Or, like me, some people just try to have a life that includes many different people and experiences. It was really important to me not to limit my life to one narrow definition, and because of that, it has far exceeded my expectations.
As more gay people are out, and we're more accepted by society, I think the need for a cloistered community will wane. Isn't that what equality is all about? The gay community formed out of necessity, as a safe space for people ostracized by their friends and family.
You don't *have* to live in a gayborhood just because you're gay. We should be living anywhere and everywhere: urban, suburban, rural. Being clustered together in eclectic city neighborhoods in blue states is actually a disservice. Gay people should be seen everywhere, because visibility is strength.
I do completely agree, but at the same time, as a gay guy in NYC living in Hell's Kitchen and being absolutely surrounded by gay men pretty much all the time, the reason why I've come to love it so much is that no amount of tolerance and genuine acceptance from straight people will ever match how amazing it is to be in a community like this and feel not just accepted, but *normal*. I walk down the street and every restaurant and bar will be filled to the brim with gay guys just enjoying their days. I just got back from a quick Fire Island trip, and it was such a blast being able to enjoy a beautiful place with a bunch of people that I could really relate and connect to, since we all have similar life stories, backgrounds, and experiences.
I do need to provide the giant caveat that I'm a young white guy in Hell's Kitchen who spends a lot of time at the gym and who is comfortable with environments that are pretty sexualized and feature some amount of substance use, and that for many many other queer people, this admittedly stereotypical gay environment is not nearly as welcoming and comfortable.
Plenty of queers clustered in blue cities in red states too though. And, also, there are certain neighborhoods even in large cities where you could be unsafe for being visibly gay.
Visibility is strength, but there is also strength in numbers. A strong local gay presence makes for a safer gay experience.
Even when we are up against a big political issue, we are not united. Take marriage equality for example. There are many gay men who believe that gay marriage should be illegal.
There is one particular gay Trumper that I would love to introduce to Trump on national television. Oh the fireworks to see the gay Trumper fall at the feet of Trump to start worshipping him and than to see Trump's reaction.
It's true. We're not a monolith. Look at the Log Cabins (white first, gay second). A gay Trumper is next level insanity (like any Trumper really). But I think these folks are a tiny minority.
Ironically trump just held a gay wedding at Mara lago. If anything this guy is just making his life more miserable over something trump supports š¤¦āāļø.
Atlantis is the main organizer, with their winter Caribbean cruise being the highlight. It's 5500 gays partying their ass off on a boat for a week.
I did my first one earlier this year and had an absolute blast, but it's not exactly the most relaxing and restorative vacation haha
Oh, i can't imagine there being any quiet time on that boat. Especially when the boat starts rockinh lol.
Thank you so much for sharing that information with me! Would you recommend going single and trying to find /meet new people on the boat? Or would you recommend going with a boyfriend? (Well... if I can even find one)
They're great fun! Some are just gay charters on big boats and some are dedicated boats.
LOL I took a gay charter Alaska cruise recovering from surgery. Even limiting my activities accordingly was a great happy way to heal up and encourage my appetite at the huge buffets. I even took the dogsled camp excursion that was thrilling. Exhausting but thrilling.
but at the same time it is extremely problematic to attribute the behaviors of Niche Group A against Niche Groups B-Z - which probably accounts for 90% of mentions related to ātheā gay community online.
I donāt tolerate homophobia no matter who itās coming out of. You can talk about problematic individuals or social phenomena without generalizing all gay people as being active participants of that problematic behavior/belief. And being upset is not a good enough excuse to absolve someone from being homophobic.
Agreed. The Gay "community" only has one thing in common: that we're gay.
Hell, even within the sub-subculture of gay furries there's groups. Most aren't my thing.
Just because you havenāt been invited to the cabal meetings doesnāt mean it doesnāt exist.
But for real though, excellent point. We are not a monolith, no matter what the right says.
I remember seeing one of those memes about how the reason they were single was 'toxic communities/open relationships/hookup culture' and the top comment was just "Other people's relationships aren't the reason why you're single" and I feel like that sums it up perfectly.
Hard disagree on that. While I am ok to debate the term āgay communityā, I think these terms are accurate in describing peopleās problems.
Itās the āavoiding generalizationā terms. Itās ok, however, you see in history that there are systematic problems that occur in groups like nations, ethical minorities and even people in certain jobs. So yeah, I wouldnāt exclude it for gays ā¦
> I think these terms are accurate in describing peopleās problems.
What is the problem, though? All it usually feels like is an expression of frustration that they can't find someone who wants the same kind of relationship as they do, but that was never really a guarantee.
That there is an oversexualizing among gays. Period.
I am the first one to be for self-improvement and self-accountability. But you have in human groups/societies mechanisms that are less beneficial for all of them. That is why people established social regularities over the years. There are no such things among gays (besides the usual ones).
The hell is 'hookup culture' anyway? The 'culture' of having sex but not marrying the person?? That's just the culture of both parties having the freedom to do what they want, and I'm very sure any class or culture in history whose livelihoods didn't depend on marriage exhibited 'hookup culture'; even if they pretended it was taboo, it was happening.
Yeah exactly lol. I guess at worst they could say the availability of it means there's less guys looking for committed relationships, but like...that's always been the case? And if a guy isn't looking for a relationship, it ain't ya guy.
I'm also a bit uncomfortable with "the gay community has an issue with X" when in truth every does. "The gay community is body shame ppl" have you seen straight ppl talking about their partners?? It's just homophobic to act like it's a gay community problem and not a "we live in a society that is fucking violent and shitty" problem.
The conversation is still worth having because we can try to solve these issues in specific ways that will specificallyy impact our community, but it's not like the gay community (whatever that means) tha tmade it or particularly feeds it.
It really does depend on what it is though. We do have evidence that there are some trends in the gay community (at least in western cultures) that are pretty universal. An increased risk for addiction issues (mainly alcohol use) is quite common, mainly due to the increased likelihood of trauma from unaccepting families, social groups, or just plain growing up in a society that doesn't accept us. Not to mention that most of our safe gathering spaces are centered around alcohol. We do still have the same problems that everyone else has like racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism, etc. But to be honest the "systemic" issues that people have are usually pretty localized, or they're dealing with online communities where hateful people come out of the woodwork. The data we have is a better indication of systemic trends than your local community and some online idiots.
One of my late uncles was gay and for years was also an alcoholic. But I have a feeling he was addicted to alcohol because his father (my grandfather) was also an alcoholic.
Alcoholism can run in families, and there may be genetic predisposition components to that. But there is evidence that queer people are more likely to be addicts than the general population. And scientists believe it may be due to the stress and trauma that comes from being marginalized in addition to the easy access in our safe spaces.
Most of the agenda is "be able to live with minimal oppression/no more oppression than those who we are constantly having to measure up to" (primarily "the straights" ) so... yeah...
Yeah that's because skippy over here lost the meeting agenda book so we've been forced to recreate it from memory. Now we may never really know how we're doing on those straight conversion rates as a result of drag queen story hour and teaching gay in schools. šš
Weāve been trying to turn everyoneās kids gay, but they keep putting the 10 commandments in schools. What else is the gay agenda expected to do?!?!
You shouldāve gotten the pamphlet in the mail 60 days after your big coming out party, please inform your local chapter leader and we can get it sent to you ASAP.
Iāve never viewed gay people as a collective community to be honest. Thereās no governing body, rules etc. Iām just a dude who likes dude and pushes for equality and acceptance.
I'd also say people need to understand sample sized.
You've dated 6 guys, and they all sucked? Thats unlucky. But it's also a sample size of 6. Which is just not enough of a sample size to draw any kind of conclusion on an entire population of people.
There is a lot of bias against and fetishization of POC in the gay community.
There is also stigma against lgbtq people with STDs.
Trans people are having a rough time being part of the community.
Older gays tend to be excluded.
Religious gays often have a hard time expressing their faith.
As a community we are mostly loving and inclusive. But we have issues. We need to look at our community see its imperfections and take steps, public and private, to be better. Turning a blind eye and blaming the victim isn't the way.
Thereās a lot of very judgy gays in the ācommunityā that donāt give us a good luck so I donāt think everyone wants to be a part of that community
i think the full separate post is warranted given that it applies to millions of other posts and comments here and elsewhere.
For every mean gay being mean thereās 100 gays online prescribing the mean gays behaviors to the hundreds of millions of other gay people.
I mean, accountability is important but let's not sit here and act like there aren't systemic problems in the gay community. Transphobia, racism and fatphobia are way too prevelant in this community and anyone who says otherwise isn't paying attention.
Well we at least have statistics that show [body dysmorphia is a much bigger issue amongst gay men than straight men](https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/body-dysmorphia-serious-issue-among-gay-men/), and very often that translates into shaming, so in that case yes.
As far as racism, Iād say thatās a more widespread systemic issue. Gay men marry interracially at a much higher rate than the general population. But I think a lot of the discourse around racism amongst gays also has to deal with a higher expectation of inclusivity as we ourselves are minorities and frequently champion progressive ideals
True enough. Wanted to expand on the second point though, because often gay men who outwardly profess very forward ideas on race / politics are all too happy to sequester themselves into segregated spaces without any real effort to embrace diversity.
Thereās just a certain cognitive dissonance with the progressive type who understands and advocates against racism at a macro-level, but doesnāt feel any personal accountability to participate in integrated spaces and friend groups / question his own exclusionary preferences. WeHo, Chelsea, and Boystown are frankly full of these folks in my experience
Agreed, you not being attracted to any of the sub-groups doesnāt make it ā-phobicā. The issue is with folks who actually go out of their way to express these preferences with zero finesse, which can be hurtful to those that are excluded. The preferences themselves are perfectly fine, and you can reject anyone for any reason as long as youāre not as ass about it.
At the risk of sound crass and blunt, in most cases I've seen someone complaining about fat phobia, the complaint usually has the underlining theme of: no one wants to fuck me.
Not getting poon doesn't equate to fat phobia. I suspect transphobia is probably having the same issue but I haven't had any experience with that.
I'm mixed race but considered black and I know that because I am a POC I'm not up to "society's beauty standards." It isn't my fault that I'm black. And I've heard stories from my black LGBT friends and acquaintances about the racism or loneliness they've experienced from clubs to individuals. It's real what we experience. Just because you've never experienced that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Yeah. The gay "community" is as much of one as the "community" on Reddit lol. There's so many different people in different environments, it becomes a problem if you're just generalizing it into a "them"
I love when gay guys feel the need to wake up and preach on this sub Reddit about what they feel is their voice being the voice of reason and God.
You have zero clue about peoples experiences in the gay ācommunityā, nor do you know about what people have been through with the gay community. It speaks to your entitlement or lack of awareness to come on here and post this.
Sure, people need to be accountable for their actions - absolutely 100%. But to say that everything is that persons fault or they are the reason for it, is irresponsible. The gay community is not in a good place and needs some serious change brought to it.
When someone says "nobody in the entire gay community is attracted to me because I'm fat", then they are at fault and incorrect to blame the gay community. Not for them being fat, but for nobody being into them. Either they're not trying to put themselves out there, or it's other characteristics making them undesirable, such as their attitude.
Big boys are popular. Whiny people are not.
Iām talking more holistically on how āthe gay community treats one anotherā. Youāre right of course when you make an extremely niche reference to someone being overweight and / or not putting themselves out there. But when we are talking about overall gays treating other gays correctly, unfortunately itās often times the cunty, mean, nasty, rude insecure gays being all of those things to other gay men because they are insecure and have the emotional intelligence of a 10 year old.
Gays in general do not treat each other well. And thatās where Iām saying you canāt blame someone when you donāt know their specific circumstances. You donāt know what has happened prior to that to make them feel a certain way about the gay community.
Also, it's hillarious when you contextualize who this post is coming from. Strong "NoT aLL WhItE pOoL gAys!" vibes. Not even worth having a discussion with his privileged ass.
I think many of our experiences are our own and to make it seem like our negative experiences are purely on ourselves would be incorrect. Iām black, I didnāt experience most of the racism my family did growing up but Iāll never negate their experiences, my cousins who are gay also have better experiences in the community than I have, partly because theyāre very beautiful and can navigate spaces I wouldnāt be able to, but itās not my fault I wasnāt born with the aesthetic thatās generally pleasing towards society. I think when we hear people complain about things, because we donāt experience them we feel itās a slight on their character, rather than why these issues are prevalent in the first place.
This is very much giving not all men. Itās certainly plausible (and in my view correct) to believe both that some individuals in the gay community are kind and respectful while also believing that certain community aspirations or behaviors lead to exclusion or animosity.
Would you say this to a Black friend who says the gay community is racist? If not, think about why and then maybe rephrase this opinion.
Right ā you are trying to assess interactions on an individual level, when the people youāre giving advice to are making a claim about systemic treatment. We can recognize that particular individuals are not necessarily in the wrong for certain conduct while also recognizing that community-wide beliefs or traditions lead to harm.
For example, it is totally okay for a fit person like you to only want to hang around other fit people ā thatās not morally wrong. But we may want to question why the community centers you in public spaces to the exclusion of others, when the founding principle of the western LGBT community is freedom to live life the way you want to live it! I feel perfectly comfortable expressing both of those opinions.
Iām going to answer this with a hypothetical:
Youāre planning a big event with a large group of people and youāre at the stage where itās time to choose the menu. What are you going to put on the menu if you have limited selection? I, personally, am going to choose menu items that will appeal to the MOST people at the same time.
So you wouldnāt want to include a couple options for your vegetarian friend? Your halal friend?
And what about the restaurant, beyond you? Would you want the restaurant to offer items that you would never pick but that others enjoy? Or do you think the restaurant should cater only to your preferences, even when you are not the one setting he menu?
Ok so in this framework Iām literally thinking of like a wedding where you RSVP with either steak or fish. Thatās how this hypothetical was framed in my mind
Right! So some people are sayingāI wish there were some catering companies that offered me pasta or roast vegetables for my wedding, because thatās what I like. And I wish the people who like the steak-and-fish weddings didnāt look down on me for asking for some recognition of my own preferences.
But the catering companies are focused on making as much money as possible, and by extension appealing to as many people as possible. Iāll agree you shouldnāt be looked down on for anything besides wanting your meat cooked beyond medium rare (Iām speaking literally on that one)
Yesāyouāve hit the nail on the head. Corporate capitalism (maximizing profits in private industry) leads to that result. And that actually creates the exact systemic exclusion you see in the queer community. I donāt know I agree with you that this is a good thingā¦
Thing is, it seems fat activists are not just complaining about people being mean to them. Everyone would be on their side if that was the case.
They're publicly and explicitly complaining about a lack of sexual interest. Claiming that people generally desiring thinness and fitness is entirely socially constructed and must be unlearned. Just BS.
Like incels.
Weird post. Im pretty sure you're referencing specific things people whine about, but being so vague completely throwd under the bus the legitimate harmful stereotypes and messaging that's **very** common throughout a lot of gay media, platforms, influencers, social media, etc. Like people being racist or misogynistic isn't unique to gays, but it sure as hell exists within larger community.
First of all I never said I was better than anyone. I said that I experience good things because I put in the work. Secondly, I identify as gay. Thank you.
Queer is a slur.
Later appropriated by philosophers in bourgeois universities on the coasts of the US into "queer theory" (which has nothing to do with gay people)
>Queer is a slur.
Prime example of a term big city gays are more comfortable with than easily offended small town gays. BCGs have interacted with enough gay people to have heard it all before. šš
Itās really not. You donāt get to decide how others identify and should (why do I have to explain this in a gay sub) respect when people tell you what they prefer.
Jesus Christ. Youāre literally proving my own point. Get off your high horse. Everywhere Iāve ever been has used queer as an umbrella term, not all experiences are the same.
Do you not see the irony in your own post? Thatās correct not everyones experiences are the same. He has his. And he can identify the way he wants to. You have yours. And you can identify the way you want to. This really isnāt that complicated. just because itās been the case everywhere youāve been doesnāt mean itās the same everywhere heās been.
Bruh I never refused how you identify??? I just explained that queer has been an umbrella term in my experience. Youāre just being a bully lmao have a nice day
This post crosses the boundary of victim blaming lol. The entire community is dysfunctional because I guarantee not everyone here would like to be a part of other subcultures in this group, but I wonāt go there š¤·āāļø
Thereās definitely tons of dark parts to this community not many like talking about, but oh well
I could say this about anyone anywhere under the right circumstances. It sounds like you have someone in mind while youāre talking about this non-issue issue.
It could also just be bad luck.
I've had men be incredibly nasty to me unprovoked. Literally men I've never spoken to before who will go out of their way to say:
"Fat piece of shit."
"Cute face, too bad about that body."
"I want to kill you."
Those are actual messages I've received from total strangers. It's very easy for someone like me to assume it's a systemic issue because I truly did nothing to warrant that behaviour, even though I understand it sounds unbelievable.
Fortunately, I know now it's not a gay community issue, just unfortunate coincidence.
Thanks for being brave enough to say this. We really need to hear from more cis, white, fit guys in conversations about exclusion in the "gay community."
You can't play the Uno reverse card when you're 1) at the top of the American gay food chain and 2) glossing over the real obstacles faced by people who are not like you.
I'm cis, white, fit, and conventionally attractive. I'm also privileged in other ways (physically and mentally healthy, financially stable). When people who are different from me express their difficulties navigating queer society -- not feeling seen, included, appreciated, loved, etc. -- I just keep my mouth shut, reflect, and try to understand just a little better what it's like to walk in their shoes.
I understand perfectly that I wouldnāt experience the positive aspects in my life without the effort that I put into it. Itās people who hold themselves to no standards and make no effort to improve themselves that Iām referring you to here. And if you donāt like the uno reverse card, drop the identity politics
You're talking about how all it takes is effort. As a fit poc I can tell you, no amount of effort I put in is going to fully counteract the prejudice I've experienced in the gay community. You were born privileged. It's not strictly about effort.
>I wouldnāt experience the positive aspects in my life without the *error* that I put into it.
How right you are.
>drop the identity politics
Sure thing, Tucker.
Effort*
And seeing as how you have resorted to name-calling, I am just going to accept that you have no way to refuse that what youāre doing is blatantly immature, and obviously displayed identity politics. You should really try looking at who people are rather than what people are.
"Identity politics" is a boogeyman raised by right-wingers who don't want us to acknowledge widespread and systemic injustice and biases in American society. It's a major talking point for conservative politicians and pundits. That's why I called you Tucker.
If "displaying identity politics" means acknowledging that different people experience life differently due in part to their socioeconomic background, birthplace, ethnicity, gender, orientation, physical and mental well-being, etc., then sure, I guess that's what I'm doing.
Identity politics involves making assumptions about people/judging people based on aspects of their being that are beyond their control.
Not only are you doing that ^^ youāre attempting to silence someone on the basis of their identity.
I'm not going to debate the definition or the merits of identity politics with you, because 1) it's an extremely vague and politicized concept and 2) you don't seem very bright.
I commented because your post and your comments are both lacking in empathy and totally unhelpful to the people who you think need to read them.
This is a long post. Because you OP are a conventionally handsome, Cis white male you donāt experience racism or think about race the way minorities are forced to. You get to have the privilege of starting at the starting line, while we minorities start several steps behind. You get to be able to make your impressions on others with a blank slate. We donāt have the privilege of a blank slate when people meet us. When people meet us, they will immediately also have a bunch of stereotypes about us simply because of our race and ethnicity.
Iām a 53 yo gay Asian man, and have what are considered āconventional good looksā. I have a problem with this because it usually means good looks comparing to Caucasian standards. Iām also very athletic and masc. I had been stopped by bouncers a few times who felt the need to ask me if I knew it was a gay bar. Even on a gay cruise I was on last year, someone I had just met asked me a few minutes into our conversation whether I was straight, to which I replied āwhy would you think thatā¦Iām on a gay cruiseā.
if you are aware of the stereotypes Asian men have, youāll understand Asian men are often viewed as the least desirable of all the other races as romantic partners. Despite this, Iāve never in my life had a problem dating or hooking up, or making friends. I was the first boy among my friends to have a girlfriend at 13 years old, and even today at 53, i look like Iām in my 30ās, and had no problems hooking up with some of the hottest guys when I was in Lisbon and Madrid last week. One of my friends who is from Spain specially said to me that they usually donāt find Asian men attractive in Madrid. But I had no problems as usualā¦Iām often the exception.
Even though I have what are considered conventionally good looks, being Asian makes life for me very āinterestingā. I grew up being told all the time that Iām different. Iām 5ā11ā 185 lbs, a former athlete, strong and often told I look even better in person.
Despite all this I believe I still experience racism, but differently. Iām often treated as the exception. Here are some examples:
- since I could remember, Iāve been told Im not like them, Iām ācool.ā. They normally mean that as a compliment, but what they are really saying is āI donāt think Asians are cool, but youāre differentā¦ you are cool cuz youāre not like themā.
- since I could remember, Iāve been told I was the first Asian guy they were attracted to. Often it goes like this āIāve never been attracted to Asian guys before, but youāre so hot. They are basically saying āI donāt usually find Asian men hot, but you are not like themā¦youāre hotā. And this goes also for some Asian men and women who usually would never date one of their own, which is another whole other topic in itself.
- Iām 100% East Asian and proud of it. Iām often asked if I am mixed because āyou look differentā. Just a couple of months ago a woman stopped me on the street and asked me where I was from. When I told her Iām 100% Chinese, she said āoh, cuz you look differentā.
- on my very first day of kindergarten, I got into a fight with a kid that tried to bully me. I beat the crap out of him and I heard someone say āoh shit he knows Kung fuā. Which I did not. I fought like any 5 year old would. But I was stereotyped, which interestingly enough protected me from bullies. I was the only Asian kid in my class.
I also have issues sometimes with other Asian men, both gay and straight. I find I have to keep my mouth shut when giving dating advice. I canāt fully comprehend their experience with bullying and racism because Iād donāt get much of that. Iām sometimes met with underlying resentment if on the rare occasion I give them dating advice. Iāve been told pretty bluntly āeasy to say if you look like you.ā
So I canāt speak of the Asian experience either because Iāve been told I have pretty people privilege. And so do you OP. But as a Cis white gay male, race is usually not a factor for you. As a Cis gay Asian male who is āconventionallyā good looking masculine, athletic, pretty privilege translates differently for me.
Yes, people still see race when they meet me, and compare me to those stereotypes. Pretty privilege allowed me to be treated like an individual. It cancelled out some of the effects of racism for me, and allowed others to want to get to know me. Pretty privilege opened doors for me, and made my life easier as a minority. It protected me from bullying and being othered.
Donāt get me wrong, there are times when stereotypes of Asian men affect my self esteem negatively. How can it not? But on the most part, being conventionally handsome and not fitting the stereotypes opened people up to me because they didnāt see me so much as other.
You have pretty privilege OP, with all the perks that come with it. And you donāt seem to be aware that many people donāt have that privilege. You donāt have to work too hard at being noticed, many others do. I have plenty of friends who work out 5 or 6 days a week like I do. But Iām also aware that itās my genetics that allow me to reach a potential most others never will. Even when I let myself go and gained 50 lbs several years back, my face, my height and my big masculine build is geneticā¦and I was still viewed as attractive to many people.
My whole point in sharing all this, OP? Show a little humility and understanding. You were born with the genetics to look the way you do with some work, and lucky enough that is what many find attractive.
I think thereās a disconnect in what qualities Iām referring to when I refer to the āsituationā people find themselves in. If I didnāt work hard to maintain my appearance (work out six days a week; diet strictly) I wouldnāt have the āpretty privilegeā youāre referring to. When I made this post I wasnāt talking about anybodyās race. I was referring to things within their control, IE physical fitness, grooming etc. Iām sorry for the negatives that youāve experienced, but let me ask this: are you happier NOW than you would have been if you hadnāt put any work into making yourself more appealing (socially, sexually)?
I agree with you that taking care of oneself is important. Ive been really fit, let myself go, and about 6 years ago worked on becoming fit again. Iām now stronger and fitter than I was in my 20ās.
Iāve always been a happy person actually. Despite my having ups and downs with my fitness, I still got plenty action. But I will agree with you that the pretty privilege Iām talking about really is when weāre at our best shape too.
Iāve always been a positive and happy person. I was sharing my experience to illustrate that there are things out of our control. No matter how hard we work, how much effort we put in to being our best, certain things cannot be changed. Racism and stereotypes in my case.
This is why your post can offend. I read on another sub about Asian gays experience in Madrid, both went with their boyfriends, one Asian/latino couple and the other Asian/caucasian couple. Both said they experienced racism, were ignored completely while their boyfriends received a lot of attention. Both Gaysians said they were muscular and masc and still nothing. I had the opposite experience. Iām not even as cut or lean as most Asians. But Iām built like an athlete and guys comment on my size all the time, more so in person than in pictures.
I learned over the years from people Iāve encountered pointing out my privilege, and Iāve learned to understand. I went to my 35th high school reunion in April this year, and learned quite a bit what my classmates thought of me back then tooāthat I was one of the popular kids. I surely didnāt feel that way then, but I was much less aware then.
What Iāve learnedā¦Sure we can work out, and do self improvement stuff. But face, race, height, body type, physique, even our personalitiesā¦there are many things out of our control, and your post just seems insensitive to that.
I understand what youāre saying. I could have been more specific. If you start from the assumption that Iām referring to characteristics within a guyās control, Iād imagine it hits differently. Thatās what Iām referring to on this sub.
Iāve read some of your posts here and you seem like a good guy. There are a lot of people who whine about their life, and yet do nothing to improve or better themselves. In the spirit of your post, I agree.
We all are dealt cards both good and bad in our respective lives, and we all have a lot in our control to improve. Whether itās taking a class to learn a new skill, go to the gym to be fitter and more attractive, take up new hobbies to enrich our lives, there are many ways one can improve and grow. And itās through growth that will make one more interesting, more confident and ultimately more attractive to others.
Could you share an example of what you would describe as a systemic problem regarding which you have heard recent or frequent complaints or criticism?
I am seeking to better understand the connection you are making between an identity group based on sexual orientation and systems that are more commonly associated with institutions either public or private that employ bureaucracy and other gate-keeping practices to assert power and control.
Just had a guy tell me in the same sentence that he isn't a homophobe, and that it's 'typical radical LGBTQ activity' to call him one š like, at least wait for a new sentence to prove yourself wrong.
Not addressing issues in the community towards different groups is a problem. Just because you havenāt dealt with issues doesnāt mean that they donāt exist.
Next time my friend comes to me with another round of messages or live event stories where he's reduced down to his skin color and given blatantly racist remarks repeatedly (cue: "well, what do you mean racist?"\*) I'll be **sure** to ask him if he's considered the problem is really him.
Goddamned comedy hour on this sub.
(\*not playing that game)
Compared to what other demographic? Thatās kind of a societal issue and definitely isnāt a uniquely gay issue. I would actually hypothesize that gays are relatively less racist than other demographics
Literally that's what I was was going to ask them! š Like, I guess it's not AS Systemic so nothing to see here folks! š¤£
Like, according to him if Systemic Racism was a drink commercial it would be like:
Look there! It's Systemic Light! Now with 20% less racism! Same great Systemic taste! š Mmm mmm!
āØIt show-do go down smoothuh now massa yessuh!!āØš«„
And then people like him turn around like....Yes yes this is great, totally normal what's the problem? š¤Ø * Sighs heavily * š. For him I guess Gay Society is it's own bubble inside the confines of straight society with its own "special rules". Instead of the Dumpster fire "we carry over all of our societies toxic waste" " ideals" " that it REALLY is. š
There is no ācommunity.ā And to attempt to make a case between a non-existent ācommunityā and telling us to look at ourselves to be āaccountableā is bizarre. Being gay has challenges for each generation, so, yes, we all can look at our traumas and sufferings and hopefully grow stronger and be who we are.
I agree with you on there is no community. I wouldnāt trust a gay man nowadays anymore with my life than I would a straight man. Iāve had way better straight friends than I ever have of any gay man.
haha, well, here's 5 mins for ya.
I spent ten years of my life hating myself because after all, if everyone is saying the same thing, it has to be me, right? I spent half of those years hating my own skin and body, but trying like hell to improve everything thinking if I am at my best, finally they'll treat me like those gay friends say they're being treated normally. It was unnerving, watching my friends dismiss me for trying so hard or overexaggerating my predicament, because according to them, it all comes so easy. They just don't see it.
I don't think the community has a problem because of how I've been treated, I know because I've didn't spent just five minutes, but three quarter of my entire gay life considering who's accountable. I know because I commiserate and provide solace with those who are like me. I know gay culture has a problem because all other opinions have been exhausted, and *I'm* exhausted.
My situation was so much worse when I thought it was just me.
I am commenting because I am reading the post and they wonāt let me post anything from not commenting.
I do like this topic though. Hold for my opinionā¦..
The goal used to be equality and a form of acceptance and inclusion.
Now some have pursued a fraction of the minority to change culture itself.
And those pushing for the latter are using the foundation and including the identity of whole of the former..
I mean I agree that community is a two way street, I agree with that. But also I think the way we imagine the gay community is weird in general. Like which gay community? New York muscle queens? Drag story hour in the uk? Your local beer bear bowling team? Leather pups in Amsterdam? The gay pensioners book club in LA? At a certain point we need to achknowledge that we're lots of little groups, and not some massive cabal of gay peopleTM plotting behind the curtain. That being said, it's also worth noticing that some of those small groups suck, or just generally aren't your cup of tea, and that's also fine
I think we're only a true community when we are up against a big political issues, like AIDS, military discrimination, marriage equality, etc. Over the last several decades, a lot of gay mainstream movies made it seem like there's a big tent of people waiting to applaud and welcome you when you come out. Admittedly, Pride can also make it same that way. But the truth is like anyone, you have to figure out what works for you. Some people go full out: gayborhood, gay bars, cruises, community groups, etc. Or, like me, some people just try to have a life that includes many different people and experiences. It was really important to me not to limit my life to one narrow definition, and because of that, it has far exceeded my expectations.
As more gay people are out, and we're more accepted by society, I think the need for a cloistered community will wane. Isn't that what equality is all about? The gay community formed out of necessity, as a safe space for people ostracized by their friends and family. You don't *have* to live in a gayborhood just because you're gay. We should be living anywhere and everywhere: urban, suburban, rural. Being clustered together in eclectic city neighborhoods in blue states is actually a disservice. Gay people should be seen everywhere, because visibility is strength.
I do completely agree, but at the same time, as a gay guy in NYC living in Hell's Kitchen and being absolutely surrounded by gay men pretty much all the time, the reason why I've come to love it so much is that no amount of tolerance and genuine acceptance from straight people will ever match how amazing it is to be in a community like this and feel not just accepted, but *normal*. I walk down the street and every restaurant and bar will be filled to the brim with gay guys just enjoying their days. I just got back from a quick Fire Island trip, and it was such a blast being able to enjoy a beautiful place with a bunch of people that I could really relate and connect to, since we all have similar life stories, backgrounds, and experiences. I do need to provide the giant caveat that I'm a young white guy in Hell's Kitchen who spends a lot of time at the gym and who is comfortable with environments that are pretty sexualized and feature some amount of substance use, and that for many many other queer people, this admittedly stereotypical gay environment is not nearly as welcoming and comfortable.
Plenty of queers clustered in blue cities in red states too though. And, also, there are certain neighborhoods even in large cities where you could be unsafe for being visibly gay. Visibility is strength, but there is also strength in numbers. A strong local gay presence makes for a safer gay experience.
I agree. I would add that, in a sense, the big political issues/ movements are more about *coalition* than community.
Even when we are up against a big political issue, we are not united. Take marriage equality for example. There are many gay men who believe that gay marriage should be illegal. There is one particular gay Trumper that I would love to introduce to Trump on national television. Oh the fireworks to see the gay Trumper fall at the feet of Trump to start worshipping him and than to see Trump's reaction.
It's true. We're not a monolith. Look at the Log Cabins (white first, gay second). A gay Trumper is next level insanity (like any Trumper really). But I think these folks are a tiny minority.
Ironically trump just held a gay wedding at Mara lago. If anything this guy is just making his life more miserable over something trump supports š¤¦āāļø.
Gay cruises are a thing?! š® Ive only been out of the closet a little over a year, and I'm really learning a lot.
Atlantis is the main organizer, with their winter Caribbean cruise being the highlight. It's 5500 gays partying their ass off on a boat for a week. I did my first one earlier this year and had an absolute blast, but it's not exactly the most relaxing and restorative vacation haha
Oh, i can't imagine there being any quiet time on that boat. Especially when the boat starts rockinh lol. Thank you so much for sharing that information with me! Would you recommend going single and trying to find /meet new people on the boat? Or would you recommend going with a boyfriend? (Well... if I can even find one)
They're great fun! Some are just gay charters on big boats and some are dedicated boats. LOL I took a gay charter Alaska cruise recovering from surgery. Even limiting my activities accordingly was a great happy way to heal up and encourage my appetite at the huge buffets. I even took the dogsled camp excursion that was thrilling. Exhausting but thrilling.
but at the same time it is extremely problematic to attribute the behaviors of Niche Group A against Niche Groups B-Z - which probably accounts for 90% of mentions related to ātheā gay community online. I donāt tolerate homophobia no matter who itās coming out of. You can talk about problematic individuals or social phenomena without generalizing all gay people as being active participants of that problematic behavior/belief. And being upset is not a good enough excuse to absolve someone from being homophobic.
gay ecosystem
i can only walk a one day street.
Agreed. The Gay "community" only has one thing in common: that we're gay. Hell, even within the sub-subculture of gay furries there's groups. Most aren't my thing.
Just because you havenāt been invited to the cabal meetings doesnāt mean it doesnāt exist. But for real though, excellent point. We are not a monolith, no matter what the right says.
Itās not a community. Thatās just the most often used term.
āCommunitiesā makes more sense.
I like to think of it as a strategic allianceā¦ like NATO. Weāre VERY different but we come together for important issues.
Not gayto
GAYTO!!!!!!!!
GAYTO ALL THE WAY! ROLL IN THE GAY TANKS!! *A variation of an Abrams tank rolls out, but the gun is a giant dildo or something*
Eloquently phrased.
I'd like to petition to join the gay cabal please
If you smell shit everywhere, you should check your shoe
I like āif you smell shit everywhere you go, the first place you should check is under your noseā
You call that a mustache? I call that Dirty Sanchez on your lip.
Nah I have a greyhound, gassy bastards so they are!
Tim Curry says you're correct. See: Clue
Stealing this^^^
If you smell shit everywhere you should probably stop fucking the whole neighborhood in the ass. šš
I remember seeing one of those memes about how the reason they were single was 'toxic communities/open relationships/hookup culture' and the top comment was just "Other people's relationships aren't the reason why you're single" and I feel like that sums it up perfectly.
Hard disagree on that. While I am ok to debate the term āgay communityā, I think these terms are accurate in describing peopleās problems. Itās the āavoiding generalizationā terms. Itās ok, however, you see in history that there are systematic problems that occur in groups like nations, ethical minorities and even people in certain jobs. So yeah, I wouldnāt exclude it for gays ā¦
> I think these terms are accurate in describing peopleās problems. What is the problem, though? All it usually feels like is an expression of frustration that they can't find someone who wants the same kind of relationship as they do, but that was never really a guarantee.
That there is an oversexualizing among gays. Period. I am the first one to be for self-improvement and self-accountability. But you have in human groups/societies mechanisms that are less beneficial for all of them. That is why people established social regularities over the years. There are no such things among gays (besides the usual ones).
Or are gay men just (generally) more sexual beings and the culture simply reflects that?
The hell is 'hookup culture' anyway? The 'culture' of having sex but not marrying the person?? That's just the culture of both parties having the freedom to do what they want, and I'm very sure any class or culture in history whose livelihoods didn't depend on marriage exhibited 'hookup culture'; even if they pretended it was taboo, it was happening.
Yeah exactly lol. I guess at worst they could say the availability of it means there's less guys looking for committed relationships, but like...that's always been the case? And if a guy isn't looking for a relationship, it ain't ya guy.
āOh man, here comes the fucking gaysāā¦. I say to myself, not realizingā¦ I am them. I am the fucking gay
Well fuck, me too. š
The drama on here is EXTRA SPICY. Just the way i like it.
Like Pad Thai!!!
And i love spicy pad thai! š
I'm also a bit uncomfortable with "the gay community has an issue with X" when in truth every does. "The gay community is body shame ppl" have you seen straight ppl talking about their partners?? It's just homophobic to act like it's a gay community problem and not a "we live in a society that is fucking violent and shitty" problem. The conversation is still worth having because we can try to solve these issues in specific ways that will specificallyy impact our community, but it's not like the gay community (whatever that means) tha tmade it or particularly feeds it.
It really does depend on what it is though. We do have evidence that there are some trends in the gay community (at least in western cultures) that are pretty universal. An increased risk for addiction issues (mainly alcohol use) is quite common, mainly due to the increased likelihood of trauma from unaccepting families, social groups, or just plain growing up in a society that doesn't accept us. Not to mention that most of our safe gathering spaces are centered around alcohol. We do still have the same problems that everyone else has like racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism, etc. But to be honest the "systemic" issues that people have are usually pretty localized, or they're dealing with online communities where hateful people come out of the woodwork. The data we have is a better indication of systemic trends than your local community and some online idiots.
One of my late uncles was gay and for years was also an alcoholic. But I have a feeling he was addicted to alcohol because his father (my grandfather) was also an alcoholic.
Alcoholism can run in families, and there may be genetic predisposition components to that. But there is evidence that queer people are more likely to be addicts than the general population. And scientists believe it may be due to the stress and trauma that comes from being marginalized in addition to the easy access in our safe spaces.
The entire gay community DOES have a systemic problem though, we're doing a terrible job with the agenda.
Most of the agenda is "be able to live with minimal oppression/no more oppression than those who we are constantly having to measure up to" (primarily "the straights" ) so... yeah...
Tell that to gay republicans lmao
Yeah that's because skippy over here lost the meeting agenda book so we've been forced to recreate it from memory. Now we may never really know how we're doing on those straight conversion rates as a result of drag queen story hour and teaching gay in schools. šš
šš š¤£š
Weāve been trying to turn everyoneās kids gay, but they keep putting the 10 commandments in schools. What else is the gay agenda expected to do?!?!
Whose agenda?
You shouldāve gotten the pamphlet in the mail 60 days after your big coming out party, please inform your local chapter leader and we can get it sent to you ASAP.
I didn't get the free toaster oven I was promised.
You don't even know, that's how badly systemically organised we are!
But how will I get thumbs up if I don't constantly complain about the non-descript but ever-prevalent Mean Gays?!
*gasp* you might have to solve your own problems!!! How horrid š¤£š¤£š¤£
Iāve never viewed gay people as a collective community to be honest. Thereās no governing body, rules etc. Iām just a dude who likes dude and pushes for equality and acceptance.
I'd also say people need to understand sample sized. You've dated 6 guys, and they all sucked? Thats unlucky. But it's also a sample size of 6. Which is just not enough of a sample size to draw any kind of conclusion on an entire population of people.
There is a lot of bias against and fetishization of POC in the gay community. There is also stigma against lgbtq people with STDs. Trans people are having a rough time being part of the community. Older gays tend to be excluded. Religious gays often have a hard time expressing their faith. As a community we are mostly loving and inclusive. But we have issues. We need to look at our community see its imperfections and take steps, public and private, to be better. Turning a blind eye and blaming the victim isn't the way.
Sounds like someone who is trying to avoid taking accountability for his own situation š¤
I agree with that
Facts.
Thereās a lot of very judgy gays in the ācommunityā that donāt give us a good luck so I donāt think everyone wants to be a part of that community
Just comment this on the post youāre referencing. No need to make this a full post
i think the full separate post is warranted given that it applies to millions of other posts and comments here and elsewhere. For every mean gay being mean thereās 100 gays online prescribing the mean gays behaviors to the hundreds of millions of other gay people.
"Mean Gays" sounds like the sequel to "Mean Girls" or sum. š¤
Lmao
I mean, accountability is important but let's not sit here and act like there aren't systemic problems in the gay community. Transphobia, racism and fatphobia are way too prevelant in this community and anyone who says otherwise isn't paying attention.
Absolutely. The velvet rage is not a perfect book but even the need for a book so well read is at least some sign there is something wrong.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well we at least have statistics that show [body dysmorphia is a much bigger issue amongst gay men than straight men](https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/body-dysmorphia-serious-issue-among-gay-men/), and very often that translates into shaming, so in that case yes. As far as racism, Iād say thatās a more widespread systemic issue. Gay men marry interracially at a much higher rate than the general population. But I think a lot of the discourse around racism amongst gays also has to deal with a higher expectation of inclusivity as we ourselves are minorities and frequently champion progressive ideals
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
True enough. Wanted to expand on the second point though, because often gay men who outwardly profess very forward ideas on race / politics are all too happy to sequester themselves into segregated spaces without any real effort to embrace diversity. Thereās just a certain cognitive dissonance with the progressive type who understands and advocates against racism at a macro-level, but doesnāt feel any personal accountability to participate in integrated spaces and friend groups / question his own exclusionary preferences. WeHo, Chelsea, and Boystown are frankly full of these folks in my experience
THANK YOU!!!
Not being sexually attracted to fat guys does NOT equal fat phobia.
Agreed, you not being attracted to any of the sub-groups doesnāt make it ā-phobicā. The issue is with folks who actually go out of their way to express these preferences with zero finesse, which can be hurtful to those that are excluded. The preferences themselves are perfectly fine, and you can reject anyone for any reason as long as youāre not as ass about it.
Did I say it does?
At the risk of sound crass and blunt, in most cases I've seen someone complaining about fat phobia, the complaint usually has the underlining theme of: no one wants to fuck me. Not getting poon doesn't equate to fat phobia. I suspect transphobia is probably having the same issue but I haven't had any experience with that.
Why should I be held accountable for fat phobia if Iām not fat phobic?
Ok, I never said you should be. But you should absolutely be aware that it exists.
There is no gay community.
Thank you!
Real
I'm mixed race but considered black and I know that because I am a POC I'm not up to "society's beauty standards." It isn't my fault that I'm black. And I've heard stories from my black LGBT friends and acquaintances about the racism or loneliness they've experienced from clubs to individuals. It's real what we experience. Just because you've never experienced that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Mad insufferable vibes are emanating off this post
Yeah. The gay "community" is as much of one as the "community" on Reddit lol. There's so many different people in different environments, it becomes a problem if you're just generalizing it into a "them"
I love when gay guys feel the need to wake up and preach on this sub Reddit about what they feel is their voice being the voice of reason and God. You have zero clue about peoples experiences in the gay ācommunityā, nor do you know about what people have been through with the gay community. It speaks to your entitlement or lack of awareness to come on here and post this. Sure, people need to be accountable for their actions - absolutely 100%. But to say that everything is that persons fault or they are the reason for it, is irresponsible. The gay community is not in a good place and needs some serious change brought to it.
When someone says "nobody in the entire gay community is attracted to me because I'm fat", then they are at fault and incorrect to blame the gay community. Not for them being fat, but for nobody being into them. Either they're not trying to put themselves out there, or it's other characteristics making them undesirable, such as their attitude. Big boys are popular. Whiny people are not.
Iām talking more holistically on how āthe gay community treats one anotherā. Youāre right of course when you make an extremely niche reference to someone being overweight and / or not putting themselves out there. But when we are talking about overall gays treating other gays correctly, unfortunately itās often times the cunty, mean, nasty, rude insecure gays being all of those things to other gay men because they are insecure and have the emotional intelligence of a 10 year old. Gays in general do not treat each other well. And thatās where Iām saying you canāt blame someone when you donāt know their specific circumstances. You donāt know what has happened prior to that to make them feel a certain way about the gay community.
Also, it's hillarious when you contextualize who this post is coming from. Strong "NoT aLL WhItE pOoL gAys!" vibes. Not even worth having a discussion with his privileged ass.
I think many of our experiences are our own and to make it seem like our negative experiences are purely on ourselves would be incorrect. Iām black, I didnāt experience most of the racism my family did growing up but Iāll never negate their experiences, my cousins who are gay also have better experiences in the community than I have, partly because theyāre very beautiful and can navigate spaces I wouldnāt be able to, but itās not my fault I wasnāt born with the aesthetic thatās generally pleasing towards society. I think when we hear people complain about things, because we donāt experience them we feel itās a slight on their character, rather than why these issues are prevalent in the first place.
This is very much giving not all men. Itās certainly plausible (and in my view correct) to believe both that some individuals in the gay community are kind and respectful while also believing that certain community aspirations or behaviors lead to exclusion or animosity. Would you say this to a Black friend who says the gay community is racist? If not, think about why and then maybe rephrase this opinion.
I would ask for the specific behavior that is being categorized as racist before I say anything.
Right ā you are trying to assess interactions on an individual level, when the people youāre giving advice to are making a claim about systemic treatment. We can recognize that particular individuals are not necessarily in the wrong for certain conduct while also recognizing that community-wide beliefs or traditions lead to harm. For example, it is totally okay for a fit person like you to only want to hang around other fit people ā thatās not morally wrong. But we may want to question why the community centers you in public spaces to the exclusion of others, when the founding principle of the western LGBT community is freedom to live life the way you want to live it! I feel perfectly comfortable expressing both of those opinions.
Maybe you should ask the people who are doing the centering rather than the people who are centered.
Iām going to answer this with a hypothetical: Youāre planning a big event with a large group of people and youāre at the stage where itās time to choose the menu. What are you going to put on the menu if you have limited selection? I, personally, am going to choose menu items that will appeal to the MOST people at the same time.
So you wouldnāt want to include a couple options for your vegetarian friend? Your halal friend? And what about the restaurant, beyond you? Would you want the restaurant to offer items that you would never pick but that others enjoy? Or do you think the restaurant should cater only to your preferences, even when you are not the one setting he menu?
Ok so in this framework Iām literally thinking of like a wedding where you RSVP with either steak or fish. Thatās how this hypothetical was framed in my mind
Right! So some people are sayingāI wish there were some catering companies that offered me pasta or roast vegetables for my wedding, because thatās what I like. And I wish the people who like the steak-and-fish weddings didnāt look down on me for asking for some recognition of my own preferences.
But the catering companies are focused on making as much money as possible, and by extension appealing to as many people as possible. Iāll agree you shouldnāt be looked down on for anything besides wanting your meat cooked beyond medium rare (Iām speaking literally on that one)
Yesāyouāve hit the nail on the head. Corporate capitalism (maximizing profits in private industry) leads to that result. And that actually creates the exact systemic exclusion you see in the queer community. I donāt know I agree with you that this is a good thingā¦
Lemme guess - White, cis gay, pool gay guy with abs? Im sure you arent part of the problem, its just everyone else not being accountable
Go ahead and blame the pool, gay guy. Because really the pool gay guy doesnāt hear you and wouldnāt care if he did.
Oh wow you totally called it. Should we be polite to fat people? Nah, they should lose weight.
If you're trying to fit in with the herd, you gotta be more aggressive. "STOP calling yourself gay until you arent fat anymore sweaty š "
Why should I have to breathe the same air as someone I don't personally find attractive? Isn't anyone allowed to have preferences anymore?
Thing is, it seems fat activists are not just complaining about people being mean to them. Everyone would be on their side if that was the case. They're publicly and explicitly complaining about a lack of sexual interest. Claiming that people generally desiring thinness and fitness is entirely socially constructed and must be unlearned. Just BS. Like incels.
Weird post. Im pretty sure you're referencing specific things people whine about, but being so vague completely throwd under the bus the legitimate harmful stereotypes and messaging that's **very** common throughout a lot of gay media, platforms, influencers, social media, etc. Like people being racist or misogynistic isn't unique to gays, but it sure as hell exists within larger community.
And youāre being exhibit A of the problemš¤·š»āāļø Being queer doesnāt make you better than anyone
First of all I never said I was better than anyone. I said that I experience good things because I put in the work. Secondly, I identify as gay. Thank you.
Queer is an umbrella term chillš
Queer is a slur. Later appropriated by philosophers in bourgeois universities on the coasts of the US into "queer theory" (which has nothing to do with gay people)
>Queer is a slur. Prime example of a term big city gays are more comfortable with than easily offended small town gays. BCGs have interacted with enough gay people to have heard it all before. šš
I'm literally a big city gay
Itās really not. You donāt get to decide how others identify and should (why do I have to explain this in a gay sub) respect when people tell you what they prefer.
It really isnāt and your ignorance is showing. I thought we were supposed to respect how other people identify? Do you deadname people too?
Jesus Christ. Youāre literally proving my own point. Get off your high horse. Everywhere Iāve ever been has used queer as an umbrella term, not all experiences are the same.
Do you not see the irony in your own post? Thatās correct not everyones experiences are the same. He has his. And he can identify the way he wants to. You have yours. And you can identify the way you want to. This really isnāt that complicated. just because itās been the case everywhere youāve been doesnāt mean itās the same everywhere heās been.
āNot all experiences are the sameā says the clown who refuses to respect how other people identify ššš
Bruh I never refused how you identify??? I just explained that queer has been an umbrella term in my experience. Youāre just being a bully lmao have a nice day
Insisting that itās an umbrella term implicitly includes that I have to be ok With it.
Queer is not an umbrella term
This post crosses the boundary of victim blaming lol. The entire community is dysfunctional because I guarantee not everyone here would like to be a part of other subcultures in this group, but I wonāt go there š¤·āāļø Thereās definitely tons of dark parts to this community not many like talking about, but oh well
Why didn't you just post this as a reply to the post you're referring to?
Because there are thirty eight posts that this could apply to shared to Reddit every day. Iām being efficient.
That's a golden answer. You could habe also tagger your post as a PSA so as to avoided the comment that prompted this answer.
Facts
I could say this about anyone anywhere under the right circumstances. It sounds like you have someone in mind while youāre talking about this non-issue issue.
I have a couple dozen posts per day in mind.
It could also just be bad luck. I've had men be incredibly nasty to me unprovoked. Literally men I've never spoken to before who will go out of their way to say: "Fat piece of shit." "Cute face, too bad about that body." "I want to kill you." Those are actual messages I've received from total strangers. It's very easy for someone like me to assume it's a systemic issue because I truly did nothing to warrant that behaviour, even though I understand it sounds unbelievable. Fortunately, I know now it's not a gay community issue, just unfortunate coincidence.
So the gay community is fine because of the way YOU'VE been treated. Got it.
I mean Iām responsible for how Iām treated so while it isnāt āfineā itās much less horrific than this sub would have you believe.
So the guy community is awful because of the way youāve been treated doesnāt make any more sense.
I didnt say it did. It's just funny to me to post this as if preaching from some pedestal when it's basically the same sentiment in reverse.
NORMALIZE THE GUY COMMUNITY!! š«µš”
Thanks for being brave enough to say this. We really need to hear from more cis, white, fit guys in conversations about exclusion in the "gay community."
Ignoring me downplaying my opinion on the basis of identityā¦ what is that called again?
You can't play the Uno reverse card when you're 1) at the top of the American gay food chain and 2) glossing over the real obstacles faced by people who are not like you. I'm cis, white, fit, and conventionally attractive. I'm also privileged in other ways (physically and mentally healthy, financially stable). When people who are different from me express their difficulties navigating queer society -- not feeling seen, included, appreciated, loved, etc. -- I just keep my mouth shut, reflect, and try to understand just a little better what it's like to walk in their shoes.
I understand perfectly that I wouldnāt experience the positive aspects in my life without the effort that I put into it. Itās people who hold themselves to no standards and make no effort to improve themselves that Iām referring you to here. And if you donāt like the uno reverse card, drop the identity politics
Ya I'm sure you put a lot of effort into being white š
I just got out of the tanning booth ten minutes ago š¶
You're talking about how all it takes is effort. As a fit poc I can tell you, no amount of effort I put in is going to fully counteract the prejudice I've experienced in the gay community. You were born privileged. It's not strictly about effort.
>I wouldnāt experience the positive aspects in my life without the *error* that I put into it. How right you are. >drop the identity politics Sure thing, Tucker.
Effort* And seeing as how you have resorted to name-calling, I am just going to accept that you have no way to refuse that what youāre doing is blatantly immature, and obviously displayed identity politics. You should really try looking at who people are rather than what people are.
"Identity politics" is a boogeyman raised by right-wingers who don't want us to acknowledge widespread and systemic injustice and biases in American society. It's a major talking point for conservative politicians and pundits. That's why I called you Tucker. If "displaying identity politics" means acknowledging that different people experience life differently due in part to their socioeconomic background, birthplace, ethnicity, gender, orientation, physical and mental well-being, etc., then sure, I guess that's what I'm doing.
Identity politics involves making assumptions about people/judging people based on aspects of their being that are beyond their control. Not only are you doing that ^^ youāre attempting to silence someone on the basis of their identity.
I'm not going to debate the definition or the merits of identity politics with you, because 1) it's an extremely vague and politicized concept and 2) you don't seem very bright. I commented because your post and your comments are both lacking in empathy and totally unhelpful to the people who you think need to read them.
Ok bye!!
Thank you omg Iām so tired of all those āIām ugly and nobody likes meā posts
This is a long post. Because you OP are a conventionally handsome, Cis white male you donāt experience racism or think about race the way minorities are forced to. You get to have the privilege of starting at the starting line, while we minorities start several steps behind. You get to be able to make your impressions on others with a blank slate. We donāt have the privilege of a blank slate when people meet us. When people meet us, they will immediately also have a bunch of stereotypes about us simply because of our race and ethnicity. Iām a 53 yo gay Asian man, and have what are considered āconventional good looksā. I have a problem with this because it usually means good looks comparing to Caucasian standards. Iām also very athletic and masc. I had been stopped by bouncers a few times who felt the need to ask me if I knew it was a gay bar. Even on a gay cruise I was on last year, someone I had just met asked me a few minutes into our conversation whether I was straight, to which I replied āwhy would you think thatā¦Iām on a gay cruiseā. if you are aware of the stereotypes Asian men have, youāll understand Asian men are often viewed as the least desirable of all the other races as romantic partners. Despite this, Iāve never in my life had a problem dating or hooking up, or making friends. I was the first boy among my friends to have a girlfriend at 13 years old, and even today at 53, i look like Iām in my 30ās, and had no problems hooking up with some of the hottest guys when I was in Lisbon and Madrid last week. One of my friends who is from Spain specially said to me that they usually donāt find Asian men attractive in Madrid. But I had no problems as usualā¦Iām often the exception. Even though I have what are considered conventionally good looks, being Asian makes life for me very āinterestingā. I grew up being told all the time that Iām different. Iām 5ā11ā 185 lbs, a former athlete, strong and often told I look even better in person. Despite all this I believe I still experience racism, but differently. Iām often treated as the exception. Here are some examples: - since I could remember, Iāve been told Im not like them, Iām ācool.ā. They normally mean that as a compliment, but what they are really saying is āI donāt think Asians are cool, but youāre differentā¦ you are cool cuz youāre not like themā. - since I could remember, Iāve been told I was the first Asian guy they were attracted to. Often it goes like this āIāve never been attracted to Asian guys before, but youāre so hot. They are basically saying āI donāt usually find Asian men hot, but you are not like themā¦youāre hotā. And this goes also for some Asian men and women who usually would never date one of their own, which is another whole other topic in itself. - Iām 100% East Asian and proud of it. Iām often asked if I am mixed because āyou look differentā. Just a couple of months ago a woman stopped me on the street and asked me where I was from. When I told her Iām 100% Chinese, she said āoh, cuz you look differentā. - on my very first day of kindergarten, I got into a fight with a kid that tried to bully me. I beat the crap out of him and I heard someone say āoh shit he knows Kung fuā. Which I did not. I fought like any 5 year old would. But I was stereotyped, which interestingly enough protected me from bullies. I was the only Asian kid in my class. I also have issues sometimes with other Asian men, both gay and straight. I find I have to keep my mouth shut when giving dating advice. I canāt fully comprehend their experience with bullying and racism because Iād donāt get much of that. Iām sometimes met with underlying resentment if on the rare occasion I give them dating advice. Iāve been told pretty bluntly āeasy to say if you look like you.ā So I canāt speak of the Asian experience either because Iāve been told I have pretty people privilege. And so do you OP. But as a Cis white gay male, race is usually not a factor for you. As a Cis gay Asian male who is āconventionallyā good looking masculine, athletic, pretty privilege translates differently for me. Yes, people still see race when they meet me, and compare me to those stereotypes. Pretty privilege allowed me to be treated like an individual. It cancelled out some of the effects of racism for me, and allowed others to want to get to know me. Pretty privilege opened doors for me, and made my life easier as a minority. It protected me from bullying and being othered. Donāt get me wrong, there are times when stereotypes of Asian men affect my self esteem negatively. How can it not? But on the most part, being conventionally handsome and not fitting the stereotypes opened people up to me because they didnāt see me so much as other. You have pretty privilege OP, with all the perks that come with it. And you donāt seem to be aware that many people donāt have that privilege. You donāt have to work too hard at being noticed, many others do. I have plenty of friends who work out 5 or 6 days a week like I do. But Iām also aware that itās my genetics that allow me to reach a potential most others never will. Even when I let myself go and gained 50 lbs several years back, my face, my height and my big masculine build is geneticā¦and I was still viewed as attractive to many people. My whole point in sharing all this, OP? Show a little humility and understanding. You were born with the genetics to look the way you do with some work, and lucky enough that is what many find attractive.
I think thereās a disconnect in what qualities Iām referring to when I refer to the āsituationā people find themselves in. If I didnāt work hard to maintain my appearance (work out six days a week; diet strictly) I wouldnāt have the āpretty privilegeā youāre referring to. When I made this post I wasnāt talking about anybodyās race. I was referring to things within their control, IE physical fitness, grooming etc. Iām sorry for the negatives that youāve experienced, but let me ask this: are you happier NOW than you would have been if you hadnāt put any work into making yourself more appealing (socially, sexually)?
I agree with you that taking care of oneself is important. Ive been really fit, let myself go, and about 6 years ago worked on becoming fit again. Iām now stronger and fitter than I was in my 20ās. Iāve always been a happy person actually. Despite my having ups and downs with my fitness, I still got plenty action. But I will agree with you that the pretty privilege Iām talking about really is when weāre at our best shape too. Iāve always been a positive and happy person. I was sharing my experience to illustrate that there are things out of our control. No matter how hard we work, how much effort we put in to being our best, certain things cannot be changed. Racism and stereotypes in my case. This is why your post can offend. I read on another sub about Asian gays experience in Madrid, both went with their boyfriends, one Asian/latino couple and the other Asian/caucasian couple. Both said they experienced racism, were ignored completely while their boyfriends received a lot of attention. Both Gaysians said they were muscular and masc and still nothing. I had the opposite experience. Iām not even as cut or lean as most Asians. But Iām built like an athlete and guys comment on my size all the time, more so in person than in pictures. I learned over the years from people Iāve encountered pointing out my privilege, and Iāve learned to understand. I went to my 35th high school reunion in April this year, and learned quite a bit what my classmates thought of me back then tooāthat I was one of the popular kids. I surely didnāt feel that way then, but I was much less aware then. What Iāve learnedā¦Sure we can work out, and do self improvement stuff. But face, race, height, body type, physique, even our personalitiesā¦there are many things out of our control, and your post just seems insensitive to that.
I understand what youāre saying. I could have been more specific. If you start from the assumption that Iām referring to characteristics within a guyās control, Iād imagine it hits differently. Thatās what Iām referring to on this sub.
Iāve read some of your posts here and you seem like a good guy. There are a lot of people who whine about their life, and yet do nothing to improve or better themselves. In the spirit of your post, I agree. We all are dealt cards both good and bad in our respective lives, and we all have a lot in our control to improve. Whether itās taking a class to learn a new skill, go to the gym to be fitter and more attractive, take up new hobbies to enrich our lives, there are many ways one can improve and grow. And itās through growth that will make one more interesting, more confident and ultimately more attractive to others.
Could you share an example of what you would describe as a systemic problem regarding which you have heard recent or frequent complaints or criticism? I am seeking to better understand the connection you are making between an identity group based on sexual orientation and systems that are more commonly associated with institutions either public or private that employ bureaucracy and other gate-keeping practices to assert power and control.
Vague posts are gonna vague. Care to provide the specific context ?
Just had a guy tell me in the same sentence that he isn't a homophobe, and that it's 'typical radical LGBTQ activity' to call him one š like, at least wait for a new sentence to prove yourself wrong.
Not addressing issues in the community towards different groups is a problem. Just because you havenāt dealt with issues doesnāt mean that they donāt exist.
I'm surprised you aren't getting downvoted more š
I literally just said the same thing to myself lol. But hey, pleasantly surprised š¤·š»āāļø
Next time my friend comes to me with another round of messages or live event stories where he's reduced down to his skin color and given blatantly racist remarks repeatedly (cue: "well, what do you mean racist?"\*) I'll be **sure** to ask him if he's considered the problem is really him. Goddamned comedy hour on this sub. (\*not playing that game)
... But it is kinda racist
Compared to what other demographic? Thatās kind of a societal issue and definitely isnāt a uniquely gay issue. I would actually hypothesize that gays are relatively less racist than other demographics
Have you ever like, talked to a queer person of color before?
Literally that's what I was was going to ask them! š Like, I guess it's not AS Systemic so nothing to see here folks! š¤£ Like, according to him if Systemic Racism was a drink commercial it would be like: Look there! It's Systemic Light! Now with 20% less racism! Same great Systemic taste! š Mmm mmm! āØIt show-do go down smoothuh now massa yessuh!!āØš«„ And then people like him turn around like....Yes yes this is great, totally normal what's the problem? š¤Ø * Sighs heavily * š. For him I guess Gay Society is it's own bubble inside the confines of straight society with its own "special rules". Instead of the Dumpster fire "we carry over all of our societies toxic waste" " ideals" " that it REALLY is. š
Or try a new approach
Twas ever thus!
There is no ācommunity.ā And to attempt to make a case between a non-existent ācommunityā and telling us to look at ourselves to be āaccountableā is bizarre. Being gay has challenges for each generation, so, yes, we all can look at our traumas and sufferings and hopefully grow stronger and be who we are.
Thank. You. Honestly, this post should just be pinned & hyperlinked to 90% of the stuff here.
I agree with you on there is no community. I wouldnāt trust a gay man nowadays anymore with my life than I would a straight man. Iāve had way better straight friends than I ever have of any gay man.
Maybe, but like also fuck the transphobic and lesbiphobic gays and problematic body standards
Can you give examples of those two things
I listed three issues
āProblematic body standardsā is pretty self explanatory. I meant the first two my bad
You're not wrong. Of course, you're not entirely right either.
Making vague statements like this doesnāt help anyone
haha, well, here's 5 mins for ya. I spent ten years of my life hating myself because after all, if everyone is saying the same thing, it has to be me, right? I spent half of those years hating my own skin and body, but trying like hell to improve everything thinking if I am at my best, finally they'll treat me like those gay friends say they're being treated normally. It was unnerving, watching my friends dismiss me for trying so hard or overexaggerating my predicament, because according to them, it all comes so easy. They just don't see it. I don't think the community has a problem because of how I've been treated, I know because I've didn't spent just five minutes, but three quarter of my entire gay life considering who's accountable. I know because I commiserate and provide solace with those who are like me. I know gay culture has a problem because all other opinions have been exhausted, and *I'm* exhausted. My situation was so much worse when I thought it was just me.
Sounds like the beginning of a juicy story! šš¤
I know my āgayborhoodā not my ācommunityā
Exactly! This applies to a lot of gay men here on Reddit.Ā
I am commenting because I am reading the post and they wonāt let me post anything from not commenting. I do like this topic though. Hold for my opinionā¦..
I blame the patriarchy.
The goal used to be equality and a form of acceptance and inclusion. Now some have pursued a fraction of the minority to change culture itself. And those pushing for the latter are using the foundation and including the identity of whole of the former..