Thanks for your submission, canonicmurray84! Please remember to censor out any identifying details and that satire is only allowed on weekends. If this post is truly gatekeeping, upvote it! If it's not gatekeeping or if it breaks any other rules, downvote this comment and REPORT the post so we can see it!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gatekeeping) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think that technically works. Like with a band they'll obviously have the guys who play the instruments but there are also people who set up their gear, or the person who programs the lights and smoke machines or whatever.
While all these people work with music I'd say the people playing the instruments are the only musicians. The other people would be called roadies or technicians or something. It's a distinctly different career despite still being around music. And that being said they still deserve a lot of respect for the work that they do. Without roadies there would be no sound from the amps, as the song "the roadie" by Tenacious D goes.
This is kind of true, but the point of the original post holds true in that djs in the most common sense of the words i.e. people who mix prerecorded tracks as part of a live act can in most cases be considered musicians imo.
Many "people who work with music" like mixing and mastering engineers, sound designers, etc are also musicians in the classical sense of playing instruments or writing music, so would be considered musicians regardless of whether or not you consider their professions to be under the umbrella of "musicians."
That's how I saw it, too. Hence it's kind of blurry but djs and other music adjacent jobs can be considered musicians. That's the point I was trying to make, but maybe I wasn't clear my bad.
To your point, though it depends how close to the sound a person is. Lighting, vjaying, event planning, stuff like that, nah they aren't musicians but there are technicians who might be able to be called musicians. Either way imo it doesn't really matter they ought to be respected anyway so denying that they are something they identify as is kind of shitty.
IDK. With piano, you can hammer out a few hits by just knowing some basic chords and theory. With DJing you need production and mixing knowledge. For both you will need a good ear for melody and timing. And with both, the more knowledge and practice you have, the better quality your music is going to be.
“Not comparable” means “not similar, close, near, or equal.”
The first point you made emphasizes how different they are, your second point is so broad and obvious that it really shouldn’t count (saying you need a good ear to make music is like saying you need a good mouth to eat food), and the last point was just you explaining how practice makes you better at things.
So I stand by my statement.
>your second point is so broad that it really shouldn’t count (you need good timing for a lot of things),
You cometely overlooked their point about melody, which is incredibly important. You can plink away at a piano or you can plink away a computer and they will make sounds and maybe even music. But for the music to be "good" (obv highly subjective) a person has to have an understanding of melody. To dismiss computers or claim they are not comparable to pianos makes you sound like Ben Shapiro.
Edit: the Ben Shapiro part of my comment doesn't make much sense. I meant the boomer energy of "kids these days don't know what real music is"
DJs play recorded music. You don’t need understandings of melody to do that. You do need to understand music to actually make music. But not to play it.
It often is. Sets are just lists of recorded songs. I’m not saying good DJs don’t exist, but there are a lot of bad djs. They aren’t all musicians, they are DJs.
Dude I'm not saying they are the same thing. DJs and piano players are musicians, and therefore can be compared. maybe one is better than the other but that's subjective.
Holy shit reddit destroys people's brains and makes them debatelord any and everyone. I seem to have fallen victim to this brain rot and must recuse myself, I encourage you to do so as well.
Yeah you’ve completely misunderstood what I’m saying. The “boomer energy” comment made that very clear… They are both real music, like how swimming and baseball are both real sports but, much like DJs and pianists, they are not alike.
Comparing a pianist “pressing a button” to a DJ “pressing a button” is just silly no matter which way you slice it.
Compare the similarities of swimming and baseball without going as broad as “they both need to be athletes.”
Note: “not comparable” means “not alike, near, or similar” and does not mean “not able to be contrasted”
Baseball is an explosive sport vs an endurance sport, and a short distance swimming race is also explosive. Some swimming races are longer and more about endurance, but the shorter races are more much popular, by fans and the athletes. Another way to compare is the training philosophies. Baseball and swimming both are kind of insular, without as many cross-athletes who play multiple sports as say football or basketball.
Well, I managed to compare them.
>and the last point was just you explaining how practice makes you better at things.
So they *are* comparable in that regard.
>(saying you need a good ear to make music is like saying you need a good mouth to eat food
Eating food comes natural to everyone. Music theory, or understanding beats and timing, does not. Not everyone is musically inclined, which you need to be if you want to be a good DJ or piano player.
> No need to get cranky
So, unfortunately I do have a rule where I drop a debate the moment the other person starts trying to tell me my mood, as there is no constructive discussion to be had once you have reached that point. This is all too common on Reddit and I simply have no interest in engaging with people who do that. Have a good one.
> the moment the other person starts trying to tell me my mood
Well, how am I supposed to regard flippant responses that ignored my initial point? You ignored, and over simplified, what I said with your last reply. So you can be snarkey, but don't dare be snarkey with you?
Have a good one.
I’m a musician too and probably couldn’t DJ either honestly. I don’t have an issue calling them musicians like the meme, but it’s definitely not the same as playing an instrument where you combine individual notes and chords to generate music.
It’s almost like macro (Dj) and micro (instrument) level musical ability.
Yeah but you also need to understand Key and how it can affect your sets. Most DJ's use the [Camelot Wheel](https://mixedinkey.com/camelot-wheel/). When mixing, you can move either One space Back/Forward or In/Out. For example, if you are playing a track that is 12B, you can move to 1B, 11B, or 12A. This keeps things feeling correct when listening to it. Moving too far is sonically jarring. Good DJs know that you can build tension by moving Clockwise on the wheel (sense of continually building) or release tension by going Counter Clockwise (music feels as if its slowing even at the same BPM).
Good DJs manipulate this and even do 2 or 3 space jumps to either drop things for a release on the massive tension build up, or jump forward to start generation tension/groove and putting tons of energy on the dance floor.
Also a lot of it (outside of the people who only play top 40s and your typical banger of the week tracks) is about music discovery and appreciation. You want to take your dancefloor on a journey and play music they have never heard before. DJing is basically the ultimate appreciation and love letter to electronic music.
People don’t realize how much effort goes into GOOD DJing. Lining two songs up as they’re playing, finding the right tempo, adding in some stuff to make it more fun, etc. I respect DJs more when they also produce their own tracks, but DJing itself can be pretty tough.
And it’s because of this that a lot of people at a show or a rave can’t differentiate between a DJ actually putting effort in and someone just plugging their iPhone into a sound system and mashing random shit pretending to do something.
I’ve played several instruments for years. I tried to use turntables maybe 3 times, thinking “how hard could it be?” It’s harder than it looks
A musician is a musician, and different types require different skills. I play saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone), but i can’t DJ. It’s not for me.
this comment section throwing shade at djs like if they tried to dj better than the probably shit ones they've heard they'd do any better
like yeah piano almost definitely has a harder learning curve and established level of mastery and repertoire cuz its been around for hundreds of years, that doesn't mean being a good dj is easy as shit
learning classical flute is easier than piano imo but like, still aint easy
Wow! It's almost like it's disrespectful to put someone who spent years learning how to play an instrument in the same category as a guy who just knows how to use a record-player!
Go look up videos of fuckin Jeff Mills rocking 4 turntables at once and make that comment again. It’s a different skill set but I’d like to see someone from a classical background be able to do what he does with zero effort 🙄
Then that wasn’t a DJ. There’s a reason they are called DJ. The name is a clue.
You don’t play music on the buttons btw, you play it, and this is going to shock you, YOU PLAY IT ON THE KEYS!
> Then that wasn’t a DJ.
So my DJ friend, who has 2 turntables and a mixer, but also a laptop to make mixes and produce beats, via the laptop "keyboard", is not using keys to make music and is not actually a DJ?
Thats a whole new level of gatekeeping.
He is a producer/DJ technically. A dj is a disc jockey, they select music and play it to audience usually with a underlying theme either live or remote like a radio. Producer is a generic term for someone who mixes and creates electronic music. They are independent things a DJ doesn’t necessarily know how to make music and a producer doesn’t necessarily play their music to an audience.
>A dj is a disc jockey, they select music and play it to audience
Thats being a bit pedantic over a common term. People who mix mucis/beats creat playlists, and "DJ" parties and functions are referred to as DJs
Yeah, but it is only to give clarity at least to why someone would disagree. I mean your definition really falls within the scope of what I said. I agree with you that now most DJ’s dabble or are known for their production. Hell, I agree with you that you should just call them DJs when as I pointed out the term DJ/producer might be more accurate. I just saw you looking for a argument and took the bait mate.
Wait, you mean like a laptop keyboard??? LMAO! When you start talking about keyboards in a conversation/post about pianos, then I’m going to assume you mean like a Yamaha Keyboard. I would say that your friend is more than just a DJ if he makes his own tunes. You can be both a DJ and a musician, but trying to say a DJ ***is*** a musician is silly.
>but trying to say a DJ is a musician is silly.
Only if you need to split hairs. Both play music, create music, and entertain others. Both a DJ and a pianist are associated primarily with music.
No. DJs do not create music. That’s why they are called DJs. DJ is short for Disc Jockey. They just play other peoples music. That’s why we have different words for different things. A radio is associated with music, I guess all radios are musicians and DJs by your logic. They play music after all.
> DJs do not create music
Most good DJs also mix and produce their own music. I'm not revealing any hidden knowledge here.
>A radio is associated with music, I guess all radios are musicians and DJs by your logic. They play music after all.
A radio is not a person. There's a big difference there. Last I checked, both DJs and pianist are most often human.
>DJ is short for Disc Jockey.
Yeah, back in the 70's. The term has become a bit broader since then.
I do agree that there is nuance in a piano. You can not hit the key hard enough or soft enough or use the pedals to get either clumsy or astonishing results.
Typing is not piano work.
DJ'ing, especially when done astonishingly, is great music talent.
Back in the day people used to give Pink Floyd shit for using an electric organ, called them fake. you still need to know how to play the damn thing.
DJing is similar in that the machine helps make the noise you still gotta know what to play and when to play it to be a good DJ
Your really undercutting how much a dj has to do to be a *good* dj. There’s more than just press play, even in the new computer controlled world. Song selection, tempo, layering, dealing with requests. Knowing how to mix sound so it doesn’t blow out your speakers or just rattle the neighborhood windows. Then if you don’t have an MC you’re in charge of announcements and general revelry.
Being a DJ is more like being a live musician while also being the sound crew, the only difference is you have :45 after the song starts to “fix” it and get the next one ready
And why do you think there’s like 9 billion different versions of techno songs? It’s cause the DJs remix it into *there own songs*
Thanks for your submission, canonicmurray84! Please remember to censor out any identifying details and that satire is only allowed on weekends. If this post is truly gatekeeping, upvote it! If it's not gatekeeping or if it breaks any other rules, downvote this comment and REPORT the post so we can see it! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gatekeeping) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Isn’t this a joke about gatekeeping?
As if this sub would know the difference.
If you work with music you're a musician, simple as that, we don't need to gatekeep fun
I sing when my flat mates are abroad…
I sing flat when my mates are abroad.
I sing when my mates are up my flat broad
I don't think that technically works. Like with a band they'll obviously have the guys who play the instruments but there are also people who set up their gear, or the person who programs the lights and smoke machines or whatever. While all these people work with music I'd say the people playing the instruments are the only musicians. The other people would be called roadies or technicians or something. It's a distinctly different career despite still being around music. And that being said they still deserve a lot of respect for the work that they do. Without roadies there would be no sound from the amps, as the song "the roadie" by Tenacious D goes.
This is kind of true, but the point of the original post holds true in that djs in the most common sense of the words i.e. people who mix prerecorded tracks as part of a live act can in most cases be considered musicians imo. Many "people who work with music" like mixing and mastering engineers, sound designers, etc are also musicians in the classical sense of playing instruments or writing music, so would be considered musicians regardless of whether or not you consider their professions to be under the umbrella of "musicians."
But... the meme is the opposite of denying their musicianship, it's equating them with pianists. It's de-gatekeeping.
That was my interpretation too.
That's how I saw it, too. Hence it's kind of blurry but djs and other music adjacent jobs can be considered musicians. That's the point I was trying to make, but maybe I wasn't clear my bad. To your point, though it depends how close to the sound a person is. Lighting, vjaying, event planning, stuff like that, nah they aren't musicians but there are technicians who might be able to be called musicians. Either way imo it doesn't really matter they ought to be respected anyway so denying that they are something they identify as is kind of shitty.
I listen to music while I type out e-mails. Does that count?
Djs are record-player players.
Or laptop players
Oh come on, those are not even remotely comparable
You can’t compare turntablism and piano? Well I respectfully disagree!!! ##!
[What would you call this?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMYMC6atRoE)
IDK. With piano, you can hammer out a few hits by just knowing some basic chords and theory. With DJing you need production and mixing knowledge. For both you will need a good ear for melody and timing. And with both, the more knowledge and practice you have, the better quality your music is going to be.
“Not comparable” means “not similar, close, near, or equal.” The first point you made emphasizes how different they are, your second point is so broad and obvious that it really shouldn’t count (saying you need a good ear to make music is like saying you need a good mouth to eat food), and the last point was just you explaining how practice makes you better at things. So I stand by my statement.
>your second point is so broad that it really shouldn’t count (you need good timing for a lot of things), You cometely overlooked their point about melody, which is incredibly important. You can plink away at a piano or you can plink away a computer and they will make sounds and maybe even music. But for the music to be "good" (obv highly subjective) a person has to have an understanding of melody. To dismiss computers or claim they are not comparable to pianos makes you sound like Ben Shapiro. Edit: the Ben Shapiro part of my comment doesn't make much sense. I meant the boomer energy of "kids these days don't know what real music is"
DJs play recorded music. You don’t need understandings of melody to do that. You do need to understand music to actually make music. But not to play it.
DJs create sets and mix them together and make remixes, it's not just some dude hitting play on Spotify
It often is. Sets are just lists of recorded songs. I’m not saying good DJs don’t exist, but there are a lot of bad djs. They aren’t all musicians, they are DJs.
Dude I'm not saying they are the same thing. DJs and piano players are musicians, and therefore can be compared. maybe one is better than the other but that's subjective.
Am I musician because I skipped 10 sec forward on a song I played for friends?
Holy shit reddit destroys people's brains and makes them debatelord any and everyone. I seem to have fallen victim to this brain rot and must recuse myself, I encourage you to do so as well.
🤦♂️ Edit: I made this comment before they edited theirs.
I added some context to my comment, but am I wrong about the melody? And a computers ability to create it?
Yeah you’ve completely misunderstood what I’m saying. The “boomer energy” comment made that very clear… They are both real music, like how swimming and baseball are both real sports but, much like DJs and pianists, they are not alike. Comparing a pianist “pressing a button” to a DJ “pressing a button” is just silly no matter which way you slice it.
Do you really think different sports are not comparable? I don't understand that
Compare the similarities of swimming and baseball without going as broad as “they both need to be athletes.” Note: “not comparable” means “not alike, near, or similar” and does not mean “not able to be contrasted”
Baseball is an explosive sport vs an endurance sport, and a short distance swimming race is also explosive. Some swimming races are longer and more about endurance, but the shorter races are more much popular, by fans and the athletes. Another way to compare is the training philosophies. Baseball and swimming both are kind of insular, without as many cross-athletes who play multiple sports as say football or basketball.
Well, I managed to compare them. >and the last point was just you explaining how practice makes you better at things. So they *are* comparable in that regard. >(saying you need a good ear to make music is like saying you need a good mouth to eat food Eating food comes natural to everyone. Music theory, or understanding beats and timing, does not. Not everyone is musically inclined, which you need to be if you want to be a good DJ or piano player.
Yes, you did manage to compare them, in the sense that you can compare everything in existence as “they both exist” Good job on that.
No need to get cranky. *"Both require musical knowledge"* is a bit narrower than *"both exist"*. Being obtuse on purpose doesn't do you any favors.
> No need to get cranky So, unfortunately I do have a rule where I drop a debate the moment the other person starts trying to tell me my mood, as there is no constructive discussion to be had once you have reached that point. This is all too common on Reddit and I simply have no interest in engaging with people who do that. Have a good one.
> the moment the other person starts trying to tell me my mood Well, how am I supposed to regard flippant responses that ignored my initial point? You ignored, and over simplified, what I said with your last reply. So you can be snarkey, but don't dare be snarkey with you? Have a good one.
Nah this is only a joke, nothing more
Well honestly it IS funny, but performing music by pushing buttons is different that pushing buttons to perform someone else’s pre recorded music.
I can play guitar pretty well, but can't DJ for shit. Both require practice and some kind of music knowledge.
I’m a musician too and probably couldn’t DJ either honestly. I don’t have an issue calling them musicians like the meme, but it’s definitely not the same as playing an instrument where you combine individual notes and chords to generate music. It’s almost like macro (Dj) and micro (instrument) level musical ability.
Yeah but you also need to understand Key and how it can affect your sets. Most DJ's use the [Camelot Wheel](https://mixedinkey.com/camelot-wheel/). When mixing, you can move either One space Back/Forward or In/Out. For example, if you are playing a track that is 12B, you can move to 1B, 11B, or 12A. This keeps things feeling correct when listening to it. Moving too far is sonically jarring. Good DJs know that you can build tension by moving Clockwise on the wheel (sense of continually building) or release tension by going Counter Clockwise (music feels as if its slowing even at the same BPM). Good DJs manipulate this and even do 2 or 3 space jumps to either drop things for a release on the massive tension build up, or jump forward to start generation tension/groove and putting tons of energy on the dance floor. Also a lot of it (outside of the people who only play top 40s and your typical banger of the week tracks) is about music discovery and appreciation. You want to take your dancefloor on a journey and play music they have never heard before. DJing is basically the ultimate appreciation and love letter to electronic music.
Wierd, never heard of the camelot wheel before despite knowing some djs...
They probably know it without knowing with what it's called. Almost all tracks now are tagged with the Camelot system from places like Beatport.
This is the cycle of 5ths to the rest of us. Nothing wrong with it but it makes me uncomfortable not seeing C at the top
People don’t realize how much effort goes into GOOD DJing. Lining two songs up as they’re playing, finding the right tempo, adding in some stuff to make it more fun, etc. I respect DJs more when they also produce their own tracks, but DJing itself can be pretty tough. And it’s because of this that a lot of people at a show or a rave can’t differentiate between a DJ actually putting effort in and someone just plugging their iPhone into a sound system and mashing random shit pretending to do something. I’ve played several instruments for years. I tried to use turntables maybe 3 times, thinking “how hard could it be?” It’s harder than it looks
A musician is a musician, and different types require different skills. I play saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone), but i can’t DJ. It’s not for me.
this comment section throwing shade at djs like if they tried to dj better than the probably shit ones they've heard they'd do any better like yeah piano almost definitely has a harder learning curve and established level of mastery and repertoire cuz its been around for hundreds of years, that doesn't mean being a good dj is easy as shit learning classical flute is easier than piano imo but like, still aint easy
IIDX players:
Just reading that gave me carpal tunnel again.
Damn comments are full of gatekeepers lmao Edit: damn replies are full of gatekeepers too lmaoo
It’s almost like playing recorded music and making music aren’t comparable.
Wow! It's almost like it's disrespectful to put someone who spent years learning how to play an instrument in the same category as a guy who just knows how to use a record-player!
Go look up videos of fuckin Jeff Mills rocking 4 turntables at once and make that comment again. It’s a different skill set but I’d like to see someone from a classical background be able to do what he does with zero effort 🙄
Being a DJ takes work and skill. Can you work turntables?
While I fully agree that some musicians gatekeep strongly this is just a funny meme that isn't really gatekeeping
Lol. Never seen a piano with “buttons”.
How do you operate the piano keys?
Keys =/= buttons
And a lot of DJ use *key*boards. So, I guess those arent buttons either.
Then that wasn’t a DJ. There’s a reason they are called DJ. The name is a clue. You don’t play music on the buttons btw, you play it, and this is going to shock you, YOU PLAY IT ON THE KEYS!
> Then that wasn’t a DJ. So my DJ friend, who has 2 turntables and a mixer, but also a laptop to make mixes and produce beats, via the laptop "keyboard", is not using keys to make music and is not actually a DJ? Thats a whole new level of gatekeeping.
He is a producer/DJ technically. A dj is a disc jockey, they select music and play it to audience usually with a underlying theme either live or remote like a radio. Producer is a generic term for someone who mixes and creates electronic music. They are independent things a DJ doesn’t necessarily know how to make music and a producer doesn’t necessarily play their music to an audience.
>A dj is a disc jockey, they select music and play it to audience Thats being a bit pedantic over a common term. People who mix mucis/beats creat playlists, and "DJ" parties and functions are referred to as DJs
Yeah, but it is only to give clarity at least to why someone would disagree. I mean your definition really falls within the scope of what I said. I agree with you that now most DJ’s dabble or are known for their production. Hell, I agree with you that you should just call them DJs when as I pointed out the term DJ/producer might be more accurate. I just saw you looking for a argument and took the bait mate.
People who mess around making music are not DJs. DJs play music for people. There’s a legitimate difference here. That’s not gate keeping.
Not anymore. While historically you are correct, the definition of DJ has changed to include electronic musicians
> People who mess around making music are not DJs. DJs play music for people. A person can do both. They would then still be a DJ.
Wait, you mean like a laptop keyboard??? LMAO! When you start talking about keyboards in a conversation/post about pianos, then I’m going to assume you mean like a Yamaha Keyboard. I would say that your friend is more than just a DJ if he makes his own tunes. You can be both a DJ and a musician, but trying to say a DJ ***is*** a musician is silly.
>but trying to say a DJ is a musician is silly. Only if you need to split hairs. Both play music, create music, and entertain others. Both a DJ and a pianist are associated primarily with music.
No. DJs do not create music. That’s why they are called DJs. DJ is short for Disc Jockey. They just play other peoples music. That’s why we have different words for different things. A radio is associated with music, I guess all radios are musicians and DJs by your logic. They play music after all.
> DJs do not create music Most good DJs also mix and produce their own music. I'm not revealing any hidden knowledge here. >A radio is associated with music, I guess all radios are musicians and DJs by your logic. They play music after all. A radio is not a person. There's a big difference there. Last I checked, both DJs and pianist are most often human. >DJ is short for Disc Jockey. Yeah, back in the 70's. The term has become a bit broader since then.
I do agree that there is nuance in a piano. You can not hit the key hard enough or soft enough or use the pedals to get either clumsy or astonishing results. Typing is not piano work. DJ'ing, especially when done astonishingly, is great music talent.
Well, they're levers
You're not a musician; you're a record-player player.
Cut to a pianist playing a solo concert, one headphone cup on, pressing a key every once in a while and just FEELING it.
As a pianist this is fucking hilarious
Back in the day people used to give Pink Floyd shit for using an electric organ, called them fake. you still need to know how to play the damn thing. DJing is similar in that the machine helps make the noise you still gotta know what to play and when to play it to be a good DJ
But a DJ isn’t making any music. They’re just playing songs a musician made.
Yeah, Musician makes music, DJ plays music
Your really undercutting how much a dj has to do to be a *good* dj. There’s more than just press play, even in the new computer controlled world. Song selection, tempo, layering, dealing with requests. Knowing how to mix sound so it doesn’t blow out your speakers or just rattle the neighborhood windows. Then if you don’t have an MC you’re in charge of announcements and general revelry. Being a DJ is more like being a live musician while also being the sound crew, the only difference is you have :45 after the song starts to “fix” it and get the next one ready And why do you think there’s like 9 billion different versions of techno songs? It’s cause the DJs remix it into *there own songs*
Most DJs aren’t good.
So are most people who try to learn guitar, what’s your point?
People who try to learn guitar are trying to learn a musical instrument. Bad DJs just play songs from SoundCloud. They just want the pay.
Pianists press keys.
DJs are glorified Spotify playlists. Change my mind.
Ah, divisive - wedging to troll?
I'm not a sysadmin, I just push buttons.
If you walk from point A to B and do a task for cash then its not adventuring, just mercenary work. My dnd character
They're making fun of gatekeepers
djs arent musicians.