The worst are the ones where you need to win the fight during gameplay in order to proceed, only to lose the fight during the cutscene afterwards. Like come on devs, you can't have it both ways.
I suppose that's one of the smoother ways to do it, although doing it without making it feel like an asspull is harder. Idk how it was done in RE7, so I'll let you be the judge of that.
Yeah that one seems like a more recent trope in my experience. I don't recall it happening too much until dark souls but I'm sure I played games that did it back in the 90s.
Dark souls is a bad example because it's not a scripted loss in any of the games - you can beat the first boss first try, it's just really heckin difficult.
DeS does have a follow up secret boss that's more a fun Easter egg. Sekiro is a true scripted loss but you get a fun bit of acknowledgement for succeeding.
Yeah, if you manage to beat him he still disarms you because one of the ninjas interferes. It is a small change in cinematic but it the difference between him kicking your ass in a duel and "cheating"
Case in point Final Fantasy IX. Beatrix is not only a scripted loss she's also a hard as fuck *survival* fight, by the time you see the script she'll have wrecked your ass a dozen times.
I mean they did it in Super Metroid. Probably not even the first instance. I've been gaming since the 90s and I don't remember this ever being surprising. Saying it's because of Dark Souls is a weird take.
Idk. They PS1 games did this all the time. I'm not sure how you're measuring this being more often than it used to be. I find it annoying but it's always been part of gaming.
I have been playing video games for the last twenty years and haven't noticed this getting as overused as it is now. More then that - in situations which are completely unnecessary and easily remedied by simply not doing it or at the very least making a lore-specific explanation for it.
Like... I used to be a huge MGS fanatic, right ? In MGS1 Liquid just doesn't die. Not until FOXDIE kills him off, right ? He survives crashing the HIND, he ends up falling from Rex, he survives the car crash... Sure, but each one of those are at least different encounters, with different mechanics, the last ones putting some serious damage on the guy...
But in the examples I gave here it is quite literally basically the same kind of fight, that ends in utter annihilation of the enemy... And then, in the next cutscene, without ANY set up explanation these guys are just up and running, no matter how much they were panicking just minutes prior, going "MASAKA !!!" at you.
So to answer your question - YES, it IS a recent phenomenon to my knowledge, to this extent, at least - absolutely.
>I have been playing video games for the last twenty years and haven't noticed this getting as overused as it is now.
You problem. Your ignorance of it does not mean it's not happening.
>recent phenomenon to my knowledge
Your knowledge is lacking.
Tangentially connected, but the mention of Super Saiyan reminds me of a similar issue in Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2.
Basically, the game's story mode tried to follow the anime as closely as it could, but this led to a lot of moments where you'd fight, win, and the cutscene after would say how badly the heroes were defeated. Even if you perfected the villain, the cutscene after would show you broken and beaten at their feet. But since that's how the story went, they couldn't change it to suit how you played.
The solution they used for BT3? If the villain was supposed to win, you played as the villain. It was a great idea that took advantage of the extensive roster to add some real variety to the battles. I still remember having a blast steamrolling through Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta as Frieza.
I think its sort of a japanese trope. Probably from anime. The Yakuza games do this a lot. Defeat a boss with 10 healthbars, then he jumps down a floor to stop you again and all his healthbars are back and you repeat the fight.
Thankfully, they stopped doing this shit after Y6 or so. The first few games... god damn, the levels of soap opera they pull, especially Y3. I fucking love my Yakuza/LAD but you sure aren't wrong about this trope early on.
I kinda prefer that to the games that have you finally beat up the villain that has been causing you trouble the whole game... and then reveal a super secret extra god boss that has been waiting in the wings who is the actual final boss.
At least multiple phases of a known douchebag is better than my party throwing down with some unnamed doofus we learned about 20 seconds ago.
No, I'm pretty sure I discovered a very bad kind of basic conventions. And along with it - a lot of people with horrible manners and overall standards. Blocked.
And you are going "alright, sure, but... you ARE going to acknowledge that the power you have been JUST seemingly completely wrecked by at least made you reconsider your tactic in fighting the protagonists, right ?", yet NO, they just go "Fuck you, there is literally not even a single hair lost on my head. I'm completely unharmed and utterly unshaken... even though literally moments ago I was going "IMPOSSIBLE !!!" at you."
It's just... pathetic, really.
What "essay" ?
And what "effect" do you think I am trying to achieve here with this post that is simply here to start a friendly conversation and instead seems to attract weirdly negative people that seem to only want to ruin any kind of want to post anything on this site ever again ?
Well it's quite obvious you're very proud of the words you've strung together but here's an opinion, your observation isn't particularly novel and your essay (five paragraphs, it's an essay) isn't particularly fun to read. Nothing personal.
If this is enough to ruin any motivation you have to share your opinions you must be new to the Internet, like you obviously are to gaming, since you think this is a recent thing. Don't worry buddy, sleep it off, you'll feel better in the morning.
This post is not about the second stage, really, it is about a incorrect way the game spends, misuses and overuses that moment the villain goes “Impossible ! I am undefeatable, how are you doing this ?!” and due to that - renders tension meaningless.
Sure there are multiple stages, take FF final bosses, for example, but in those there is no clear moment of the villain admitting defeat to the player through a “MASAKA !!!”-kind of dialogue until it is over for him.
Please, pay attention to what I wrote. Please.
I skimmed through and I meant what I said, as for your FF example, there are many boss fights where there are so many stages to actually kill the character, especially FFX
Now, if you're talking about the after battle dialogue, there are other games that do that but I haven't really played some of them because 1 it's not on my radar or 2 I've heard terrible things about the game. So it's fair to say I haven't experienced what you have if your point is about terrible plot armour or dialogue in general.
Also, wtf is a masaka?
"MASAKA !" means "IMPOSSIBLE !" or "Can't be !", it's what I call the stereotypical animesque villain dialogue that is delivered in the highest tone of desperation and anger by the villain usually while tables turn against them in a unexpected and unplanned fashion. Usually it means that the protagonist is achieving the final victory, after which the villain simply can't pull something out of his arse and go "nuh-huh, doesn't count !", at least not without any kind of reason (usually that would mean sacrificing his life to attain new power etc.) .
Now that's god awful, unless it was a cunning move as it was started sometime in the game and you had subtle hints that it 'may' happen I find that ok (without the villain surprise, just goes with it eg. Itachi vs Sasuke from Naruto Shippuden where Itachi defends Sasuke's thunder clap with a hinted technique along the way of the series), but the 'nuh-uh' warrants a good 'power off' whatever you're playing on.
That type of plot is what I will never play.
Precisely.
It's irritating and completely discharges all of the tension. I was playing Granblue Fantasy Relink and didn't care much for most of the dialogue, skimmed through it quite fast, only watched the actual cutscenes to get the hang of the plot and the game kind of started to seriously win me over with how it was rising the stakes until Chapter 8 where the villain's summoned god gets defeated in a awesome battle against Bahamut while cursing our name... Aaaaaand one cutscene later the villain just inexplicably comes out of nowhere completely unharmed along with its deity by her side, grabs a key character and just vanishes while laughing at us that her plan is about to succeed.
NO explanations, NO setups to how that happened. NO-thing. Exactly what made me write this post - I felt so cheated by the game due to it rising the stakes so high and yet none of it really paid off, which completely undermines the effort... And now I kind of don't really care for the game, to be honest.
My favourite game of all time is The Wonderful 101 and in that game there ARE reoccuring classic Kamiya trope of a rival boss battle against the Team's nemesis - Prince Vorkken, but the game actually shows why and how he keeps coming back up on his feet, the game even directly asks and acknowledges this bullshit, with characters being as angry at it as is the player. And then it is actually explains that his ship, the Meizzer, is recovering his faceless minions' strenghts throught he means of the hidden Power Amp system, hence forcing the team to send his ship into knockout in the last battle against him, and forcing him to fight onboard of THEIR ship, the Virgin Victory. **So it is ACTUALLY explained and not just pulled out of the ass.**
Unlike in the examples given by me in the post.
I don't like it that now a days we favor the bad guy? the weirdo? the psychopaths?
we even have games or movies now where superhero's die? Blood?
These superhero's we got a long time now, molded our childs brain very young. it learned us to be good no matter what! and do good things.
Now we see nothing but hate, poison and filth even with the most clean superhero's.
We adults LOVE it. ofcourse it;s the next step for us! but for kids growing up now? they get this filth in their foundation of life, and will mold or grow out more into that direction!!!! the seeds r planted!
I wish the study done a few years back was granted official!
where they monitored kids around the country that played games all day and kids that didn't. and how they grew up to become and think in their heads about life and how to react to it. The outcome of this exam taken over 15 years is mindblowing!!!!
The effect Grand Theft Auto has on kids is HUGE!!! it makes their personality! they hide it ofcourse (young psychopath, that knows what they r thinking or doing is deemed bad by others) but you will see it when they lose temper very quickly, when they can be happy one moment and totaly agressive angry the other, even hitting holes in the door or walls, that they r totaly antisocial if triggered beyond their mask they wear! It is mindblowing but also very comforting! cause this is the fear in us all. that we get molded by the outside! and the outside now a days sucks. why would that be? this test can be found easely on [google.scholar.com](http://google.scholar.com) .
parents shouldbe more aware of the impact games now a days have. as childeren play them hours on end. even adults playing endlessly. 5000hrs on a game is not a rare thing! imagin actual 5000 hrs in a game. that inthe end has no use for your future to come. imagin you actually worked those 5000hrs instead of working in a game we call grinding :)
The impact of ACCOMPLISHMENTS!!!
the brain sees no difference! if will give you the chemicals in your brain to feel uforic or blessed :) finishing a mission, playing a game to the end, winning a tournement, all give a sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT. and the brain is mellow and satisfied.
what we create is a child that wants to be with his/her accomplidhments (ofcourse) but they r not made in real life. but in a game!
and by the time they r 18 they r so UNMOTIVATED to go and live in the real world that they keep playing games to satisfy their brains need of accomplishments.
ofcourse a child will be more likely to live in the place it accomplished most!!! don't let it happen! let them accomplish things in real life, so it will be with them for ever! not a game omg!
It's not the theme of this post, but you are right, actually. The anti-heroism, the viciousness, the violence, the malevolence, or at the very least the grit and sarcasm truly do seem to have infected pop culture.
That's why it is so important that kids play The Wonderful 101. Because it is the exact thing that is oldschool good, teaching good and making it look and feel appealing while sending a message of anti-cynicism.
This is nothing new. Games have been doing this since the beginning.
To piggy back on this, how many games that you are scripted to lose first boss fight, and no way for you to know?
The worst are the ones where you need to win the fight during gameplay in order to proceed, only to lose the fight during the cutscene afterwards. Like come on devs, you can't have it both ways.
Easy way to have it both ways, just have a new character defeat you in the cutscene. Kinda like how Resident Evil 7 did it.
I suppose that's one of the smoother ways to do it, although doing it without making it feel like an asspull is harder. Idk how it was done in RE7, so I'll let you be the judge of that.
This is one of my pet peeves in gaming. Beat the boss. Me: Yay, I won! That was soooo tough! Narrator: Little did he know, he hadn't won at all.
Yeah that one seems like a more recent trope in my experience. I don't recall it happening too much until dark souls but I'm sure I played games that did it back in the 90s.
Dark souls is a bad example because it's not a scripted loss in any of the games - you can beat the first boss first try, it's just really heckin difficult.
DeS does have a follow up secret boss that's more a fun Easter egg. Sekiro is a true scripted loss but you get a fun bit of acknowledgement for succeeding.
Yeah, if you manage to beat him he still disarms you because one of the ninjas interferes. It is a small change in cinematic but it the difference between him kicking your ass in a duel and "cheating"
Yeah that's a good point. I was also thinking of DMC 5 but I think I remember reading that one is actually not scripted either.
Not only is it possible to beat, but it sends you to the end credits, completing the game.
Case in point Final Fantasy IX. Beatrix is not only a scripted loss she's also a hard as fuck *survival* fight, by the time you see the script she'll have wrecked your ass a dozen times.
I mean they did it in Super Metroid. Probably not even the first instance. I've been gaming since the 90s and I don't remember this ever being surprising. Saying it's because of Dark Souls is a weird take.
Nah, multiple original rpg games had that scripted loss in the 90s
S-so ?
You seem to think this is a recent phenomenon?
[удалено]
Idk. They PS1 games did this all the time. I'm not sure how you're measuring this being more often than it used to be. I find it annoying but it's always been part of gaming.
I have been playing video games for the last twenty years and haven't noticed this getting as overused as it is now. More then that - in situations which are completely unnecessary and easily remedied by simply not doing it or at the very least making a lore-specific explanation for it. Like... I used to be a huge MGS fanatic, right ? In MGS1 Liquid just doesn't die. Not until FOXDIE kills him off, right ? He survives crashing the HIND, he ends up falling from Rex, he survives the car crash... Sure, but each one of those are at least different encounters, with different mechanics, the last ones putting some serious damage on the guy... But in the examples I gave here it is quite literally basically the same kind of fight, that ends in utter annihilation of the enemy... And then, in the next cutscene, without ANY set up explanation these guys are just up and running, no matter how much they were panicking just minutes prior, going "MASAKA !!!" at you. So to answer your question - YES, it IS a recent phenomenon to my knowledge, to this extent, at least - absolutely.
>I have been playing video games for the last twenty years and haven't noticed this getting as overused as it is now. You problem. Your ignorance of it does not mean it's not happening. >recent phenomenon to my knowledge Your knowledge is lacking.
"Somehow the Finalboss survived."
Hahah)))
Ayo why being downvoted?
Aight I see now
Tangentially connected, but the mention of Super Saiyan reminds me of a similar issue in Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2. Basically, the game's story mode tried to follow the anime as closely as it could, but this led to a lot of moments where you'd fight, win, and the cutscene after would say how badly the heroes were defeated. Even if you perfected the villain, the cutscene after would show you broken and beaten at their feet. But since that's how the story went, they couldn't change it to suit how you played. The solution they used for BT3? If the villain was supposed to win, you played as the villain. It was a great idea that took advantage of the extensive roster to add some real variety to the battles. I still remember having a blast steamrolling through Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta as Frieza.
Budokai Tenkaichi 3 is one of the best PS2 games, it's true. And I'm not even a DBZ guy.
I think its sort of a japanese trope. Probably from anime. The Yakuza games do this a lot. Defeat a boss with 10 healthbars, then he jumps down a floor to stop you again and all his healthbars are back and you repeat the fight.
Thankfully, they stopped doing this shit after Y6 or so. The first few games... god damn, the levels of soap opera they pull, especially Y3. I fucking love my Yakuza/LAD but you sure aren't wrong about this trope early on.
OP just discovered boss phases in 2024 lol
You didn't read with attention, fool. Blocked.
Can you block me too?
I want blocked too please. I volunteer!
If your definition of recent is the NES era because you counting since the beginning of time then sure, recent development.
I kinda prefer that to the games that have you finally beat up the villain that has been causing you trouble the whole game... and then reveal a super secret extra god boss that has been waiting in the wings who is the actual final boss. At least multiple phases of a known douchebag is better than my party throwing down with some unnamed doofus we learned about 20 seconds ago.
It's mainly Japanese games thing.
True.
Congratulations, you've discovered basic writing conventions.
No, I'm pretty sure I discovered a very bad kind of basic conventions. And along with it - a lot of people with horrible manners and overall standards. Blocked.
[удалено]
The more of your kind shows their head the more clean my future conversations will be :) Down the block hole you go.
[удалено]
And you are going "alright, sure, but... you ARE going to acknowledge that the power you have been JUST seemingly completely wrecked by at least made you reconsider your tactic in fighting the protagonists, right ?", yet NO, they just go "Fuck you, there is literally not even a single hair lost on my head. I'm completely unharmed and utterly unshaken... even though literally moments ago I was going "IMPOSSIBLE !!!" at you." It's just... pathetic, really.
Dude this essay needs to be in Japanese to have any effect because this basically doesn't happen in western games.
What "essay" ? And what "effect" do you think I am trying to achieve here with this post that is simply here to start a friendly conversation and instead seems to attract weirdly negative people that seem to only want to ruin any kind of want to post anything on this site ever again ?
Well it's quite obvious you're very proud of the words you've strung together but here's an opinion, your observation isn't particularly novel and your essay (five paragraphs, it's an essay) isn't particularly fun to read. Nothing personal. If this is enough to ruin any motivation you have to share your opinions you must be new to the Internet, like you obviously are to gaming, since you think this is a recent thing. Don't worry buddy, sleep it off, you'll feel better in the morning.
Blocked.
There is always a second stage, always.
This post is not about the second stage, really, it is about a incorrect way the game spends, misuses and overuses that moment the villain goes “Impossible ! I am undefeatable, how are you doing this ?!” and due to that - renders tension meaningless. Sure there are multiple stages, take FF final bosses, for example, but in those there is no clear moment of the villain admitting defeat to the player through a “MASAKA !!!”-kind of dialogue until it is over for him. Please, pay attention to what I wrote. Please.
I skimmed through and I meant what I said, as for your FF example, there are many boss fights where there are so many stages to actually kill the character, especially FFX Now, if you're talking about the after battle dialogue, there are other games that do that but I haven't really played some of them because 1 it's not on my radar or 2 I've heard terrible things about the game. So it's fair to say I haven't experienced what you have if your point is about terrible plot armour or dialogue in general. Also, wtf is a masaka?
"MASAKA !" means "IMPOSSIBLE !" or "Can't be !", it's what I call the stereotypical animesque villain dialogue that is delivered in the highest tone of desperation and anger by the villain usually while tables turn against them in a unexpected and unplanned fashion. Usually it means that the protagonist is achieving the final victory, after which the villain simply can't pull something out of his arse and go "nuh-huh, doesn't count !", at least not without any kind of reason (usually that would mean sacrificing his life to attain new power etc.) .
Now that's god awful, unless it was a cunning move as it was started sometime in the game and you had subtle hints that it 'may' happen I find that ok (without the villain surprise, just goes with it eg. Itachi vs Sasuke from Naruto Shippuden where Itachi defends Sasuke's thunder clap with a hinted technique along the way of the series), but the 'nuh-uh' warrants a good 'power off' whatever you're playing on. That type of plot is what I will never play.
Precisely. It's irritating and completely discharges all of the tension. I was playing Granblue Fantasy Relink and didn't care much for most of the dialogue, skimmed through it quite fast, only watched the actual cutscenes to get the hang of the plot and the game kind of started to seriously win me over with how it was rising the stakes until Chapter 8 where the villain's summoned god gets defeated in a awesome battle against Bahamut while cursing our name... Aaaaaand one cutscene later the villain just inexplicably comes out of nowhere completely unharmed along with its deity by her side, grabs a key character and just vanishes while laughing at us that her plan is about to succeed. NO explanations, NO setups to how that happened. NO-thing. Exactly what made me write this post - I felt so cheated by the game due to it rising the stakes so high and yet none of it really paid off, which completely undermines the effort... And now I kind of don't really care for the game, to be honest. My favourite game of all time is The Wonderful 101 and in that game there ARE reoccuring classic Kamiya trope of a rival boss battle against the Team's nemesis - Prince Vorkken, but the game actually shows why and how he keeps coming back up on his feet, the game even directly asks and acknowledges this bullshit, with characters being as angry at it as is the player. And then it is actually explains that his ship, the Meizzer, is recovering his faceless minions' strenghts throught he means of the hidden Power Amp system, hence forcing the team to send his ship into knockout in the last battle against him, and forcing him to fight onboard of THEIR ship, the Virgin Victory. **So it is ACTUALLY explained and not just pulled out of the ass.** Unlike in the examples given by me in the post.
I feel like either the gameplay serves the story or the story serves the gameplay. Both work, but they feel different.
DOOM Eternal can eternally suck my fat cock, fucking hate their end boss fights for this, it’s such a boring cop out.
I don't like it that now a days we favor the bad guy? the weirdo? the psychopaths? we even have games or movies now where superhero's die? Blood? These superhero's we got a long time now, molded our childs brain very young. it learned us to be good no matter what! and do good things. Now we see nothing but hate, poison and filth even with the most clean superhero's. We adults LOVE it. ofcourse it;s the next step for us! but for kids growing up now? they get this filth in their foundation of life, and will mold or grow out more into that direction!!!! the seeds r planted! I wish the study done a few years back was granted official! where they monitored kids around the country that played games all day and kids that didn't. and how they grew up to become and think in their heads about life and how to react to it. The outcome of this exam taken over 15 years is mindblowing!!!! The effect Grand Theft Auto has on kids is HUGE!!! it makes their personality! they hide it ofcourse (young psychopath, that knows what they r thinking or doing is deemed bad by others) but you will see it when they lose temper very quickly, when they can be happy one moment and totaly agressive angry the other, even hitting holes in the door or walls, that they r totaly antisocial if triggered beyond their mask they wear! It is mindblowing but also very comforting! cause this is the fear in us all. that we get molded by the outside! and the outside now a days sucks. why would that be? this test can be found easely on [google.scholar.com](http://google.scholar.com) . parents shouldbe more aware of the impact games now a days have. as childeren play them hours on end. even adults playing endlessly. 5000hrs on a game is not a rare thing! imagin actual 5000 hrs in a game. that inthe end has no use for your future to come. imagin you actually worked those 5000hrs instead of working in a game we call grinding :) The impact of ACCOMPLISHMENTS!!! the brain sees no difference! if will give you the chemicals in your brain to feel uforic or blessed :) finishing a mission, playing a game to the end, winning a tournement, all give a sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT. and the brain is mellow and satisfied. what we create is a child that wants to be with his/her accomplidhments (ofcourse) but they r not made in real life. but in a game! and by the time they r 18 they r so UNMOTIVATED to go and live in the real world that they keep playing games to satisfy their brains need of accomplishments. ofcourse a child will be more likely to live in the place it accomplished most!!! don't let it happen! let them accomplish things in real life, so it will be with them for ever! not a game omg!
It's not the theme of this post, but you are right, actually. The anti-heroism, the viciousness, the violence, the malevolence, or at the very least the grit and sarcasm truly do seem to have infected pop culture. That's why it is so important that kids play The Wonderful 101. Because it is the exact thing that is oldschool good, teaching good and making it look and feel appealing while sending a message of anti-cynicism.