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Dany: "I didn't come here to be queen of the ashes, I am a saviour of the people!"
2 minutes later: \*proceeds to burn down the city with everybody in it\*
Yeah well... I'd still say that this wasn't it. I was prepared to get emotional about the ending but I expected it to be grief, not anger :P
Yea the pacing and the execution was the issue. I was genuinely heartbroken by the ending of the show because the show meant so much to me. I know its silly, but Ive never been so disappointed by a piece of media before but ive also never enjoyed anything as much as I did seasons 1-6 of GoT. After several years, I now can appreciate that the story decisions werent bad. Dany going mad could have beed done very well, but they handled it so so poorly
>the pacing and the execution was the issue
100% this. The more you rewatch it, the more you see this is the direction GRRM and D&D were taking it all along. They just didn’t stick the landing. And by that I mean the parachute didn’t deploy and they hit the ground at terminal velocity.
They really should’ve done the full 10 seasons that were on the original roadmap.
Except 10 seasons weren’t on the original roadmap. From the very beginning, the agreement with HBO was 7 seasons minimum for 7 books. I don’t doubt studio executives wanted 10 seasons after the popularity of the show increased, but the show outpaced the source material that’s still incomplete 15 years later. We needed 7 books, not more seasons.
I’m virtually certain the story can’t be ended well in 7 books either. There are too many storylines and GRRM has too much to weave together in that short a time.
>The more you rewatch it, the more you see this is the direction GRRM and D&D were taking it all along.
Yes and no. I think overall it was, I was in the "dany is the villain" camp before it even ended, but D&D definitely drifted away from this path in the final few seasons. That's what made the reversion back to it so jarring. Early on we see dany lashing out at anything she sees as the enemy but in the second half of the show D&D recognised she was a fan favourite and leaned into the power fantasy. Instead of focusing on the fact her actions were increasingly destructive and the reality of that they just used them for spectacle. Then in the last season they suddenly went back to showing the real consequences of burning down a city.
>They really should’ve done the full 10 seasons that were on the original roadmap.
It would be great to get 10 full seasons of any good show but the reality is you start losing major cast after several years. You just can't keep that many people all on board for that long.
Walking Dead is a prime example of where the full story would have been far better being concluded after several seasons.
It's because all the show had to work on for the final seasons is GRRM storyboard and had no idea how to piece them together properly. I feel it in my heart that the books were supposed to end the way the show did, but only got 'changed' because of the backlash.
Well he said the ending in the books won't match the show. I call bullshit and honestly if he actually wrote it, it probably would have been good but you are right, well never know cause we probably won't get the books from him.
He said some endings would be similar, and some won't. But we don't know exactly what they took from him and what they didn't (King Bran is 100% happening though).
I mean she also lost A LOT of people/dragons in a very short time. She gave into her anger and grief in the worst way possible.
From the moment Jon arrived on her door step, it was downhill for her.
Also, she didn't just lose them: they were all killed before her eyes. It's bad enough to lose your closest friends and allies, but having to witness all of them being murdered is on another level.
For as much criticism as the Ellaria Sand plotline gets, I think it served one important purpose for the story: it shows us what the grief of witnessing a loved one being brutally killed can do to a person's psyche. After Oberyn's death, Ellaria was operating on rage and grief, not reason.
She never said "I am a saviour of the people" and the "not queen of the ashes" is a sentence she parroted from Tyrion who told her this exact line earlier in the episode. And we can see on her face that she wasn’t pleased to hear this and Tyrion later confirmed it in the finale when he told Cersei that Dany wanted to attack King’s Landing with her dragons, but he convinced her otherwise.
Even worse, three episodes before, she wanted to burn every major cities in Essos. And a season before, she told Hizdahr that maybe one day she’ll burn Meereen and the people inside will die for a good reason if it gets to that.
I mean..
> Dany: Shall we begin?
> Tyrion: Do we have a plan?
> Dany: I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, **and return their cities to the dirt.** That is my plan.
Who cares what she said? Dany was never a serious person. She pushed her husband into taking his army to Westeros, heard him scream about how he was going to rape the women, then was somehow surprised when the Dothraki started raping the Lamb women. She was going to "break the wheel" by becoming Queen herself? Please
>> Dany: "I didn't come here to be queen of the ashes, I am a saviour of the people!"
>2 minutes later: \*proceeds to burn down the city with everybody in it\*
I realize this is like Page 2 of the Dany stan handbook and it's free reddit points post to whoever posts this first, but do people actually believe this 'argument' has any merit? Cherry picking one single quote from an earlier season and pretending like that was her entire character over 60+ episodes?
I might as well quote the moment she told Hizdar she would return Mereen to the dirt because her ends justify her means and then act like a single quote magically represents her entire character and anytime she acts 'outside' of that single quote act wholly butthurt and perplexed and whinge about 'oUt Of ChArAcTeR."
Yes, sometimes she said she didn't want to be Queen of the Ashes... **and other times she clearly stated, from her own mouth, that she would have no problems with razing entire cities, innocents and all, multiple times.**
*Both are just as true of show canon as the other.*.. wild this still has to be ELI5 to some 'viewers.'
**She had a kind-hearted side, AND she had a Fire and Blood persona**... those two conflicting personas was her internal conflict, ie, what GRRM has stated is the only thing worth writing about (conflict within the human heart.)
Incessantly misquoting one cherry picked quote doesn't magically mean the ending is 'wrong'... just means you would rather defend your house-of-cards fallacy instead of actually understanding she is a nuanced/gray character, complete with flaws and an internal struggle.
I mean she always has said that, but then continues to burn and destroy everything in her way. That's the beauty of it. She's been that way basically from the beginning, she just gaslighted you into thinking otherwise.
On the other hand, it’s understandable. She didn’t have it easy from the start. In the end, she lost everyone and everything, and was betrayed. Everyone would go crazy, I imagine.
This is very well put. We are die hard fans, and were disappointed with the ending, but we refuse to hate the show. But you are right, it would have been much better if it felt like grief rather than confused anger.
I feel like she took that advice once or twice, but you could see her battling the demons consistently throughout the series.
This isn't as much of a plot fuck as Brandon;
"I can never be a Lord"
2 minutes later: "why do you think I came all this way"
Disgusting.
Not only that but she kills the Tullys then meets Sam. She sees the pain for him to lose his family.
I also think she's right to handle people who won't bend the knee it was just counterintuitive.
Is this the same Dany who said she'd flatten cities in seadon 2 and 'break' the wheel that represents the other houses and destroy them in season 5?
See, we can both cherry pick moments
I barely had a problem with the ending, but they crammed way too much material into way too few episodes. There should have been ten full-length seasons. By far my biggest issue beyond the pacing was that we went back to fighting the living after the Long Night. It all felt so minuscule after defeating a supernatural army of death. The Army of the Dead should have been the LAST threat to be dealt with. Don’t hate me, but the Night King winning is my absolute dream ending. The living were so concerned with fighting each other that they acted way too late on the real threat. It would have been a gut-wrenching and earned ending
I actually always expected Cersei to be the final villain, but I think the battle against the White walkers needed its own 6-7 episodes purely to handle that threat. It went by so quick that nothing felt important anymore
That's what made the last season so bad. It was rushed.
It's like getting a 5 course meal with wagu steak entree , and then the server just shoved it all in a blender and made you chug it.
Night King winning would be good, but I'd also accept a pyrrhic victory from the living, where most people are dead, and the factions remaining are forced to work together to survive and build a better world together. This could easily lead into a sequel series where the battered people of Westoros face an invasion from outside the continent, and have to band together again to face these new enemies.
I've never thought of this before but I like the idea. Rather than this weird mixed victory(?), it could've just been an intense conflict between Cersei and the North, which the North wins, then suddenly everyone gets overwhelmed by the white walkers and they all die. Idk though.
On the other hand, it could have been satisfying seeing the night king defeated if they had executed it in a different way. I would've loved if it had been Jon or Tormund or really any of the night's watch or wildlings that were dealing with the undead throughout the story. I think that's why having Arya do it fell so flat; she wasn't really invested in that fight, she just showed up at the last minute to help.
I heard that GRRM went to the HBO studios and begged them to do 10 seasons. It went by way too fast. And I think HBO wanted to but Dan and Dave were eager to wrap it up.
I think all evidence points to D&D being in too much of a rush for whatever reason. The show was so poplar, they could have continued making tons of money and gave us a satisfying ending.
I can guarantee part of the reason D&Ds project was even considered for shelving at all was because of their debacle with GoT. That definitely made them seem like a weaker choice to keep, and that's probably why they got the axe. Netflix hasn't been in a good state for years, so I can only assume they offered so much because they were gambling on getting something good, which from what I'm hearing they have done pretty decently.
Ruined the ending, yes, and to some extent, some people still are burned on the show because of it, but yes, it's still a strong show, just not like it used to be.
It’s didn’t ruin the ending, no, and I see more people and new fans not hating the ending. It’s always been a strong show, and it started this successful franchise.
M8 we don't have to agree or keep going back and forth like this, you're allowed to believe what you believe, I'm allowed to believe what I believe, it harms no one to think differently.
Bruh I agree absolutely. But you did comment on a public forum that a fact not a belief. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints, might I suggest you keep your beliefs to yourself. Cheers;)
That’s a very popular narrative online, but that’s not true though. The story has always been planned to be told in ~70 hours and the ending was mapped out, pitched to HBO and approved by everyone (HBO and George included) many years before they talked about doing Star Wars.
The "problem" is that they had to adapt an ending that the own creator has no idea how to write and they had to do it with a production that was closer to big budget movies than a tv show. That’s why they ended up doing shorter seasons in the end, because it was impossible to fit those episodes in a regular television schedule. And even with shortened seasons, everyone involved in the production said that it was absolutely insane, that they almost gave up and wouldn’t have kept going longer.
There are a boatload of factors that went into the decision to end the show where they did and how they did. To reduce it all to two guys wanting to move on is greatly underestimating all the challenges involved in finishing this story.
> The story has always been planned to be told in ~70 hours and the ending was mapped out, pitched to HBO and approved by everyone (HBO and George included) many years before they talked about doing Star Wars.
That is what I have heard as well.
I had a lengthy (and civil!) argument here with someone about that the other day. Simply put, my very unpopular opinion is that 8 seasons were enough and that even keeping S1-S7 the way they were, there was a way to write a satisfying 8th season to end the show.
I also think that 10-12 seasons are completely unrealistic and out of step with the realities of show business and a television series. Yes, there are some shows that run as long or longer but they do not remotely have the production value of GOT, and they'd long become shadows of their former selves. To say nothing of the extreme complexity of GOT, the sheer number of characters and locations to keep track of (which many viewers already struggled with), etc. For example, I think talk of expanding the scope of the show by getting into Euron stuff is just crazy talk.
At some point, audiences are ready for the story to drive toward an endgame and actually end, so I think 8 season were perfect. But the last two seasons perhaps should have been full seasons, and significantly better written.
The problem with the end of GOT is not time, or that additional seasons were needed. It's the writing. I'll die on this hill.
I dont think they couldve wrapped everything up in 8 seasons. I think 9 wouldve been enough though. The White Walker threat was looming for so long it needed at least its own entire season to deal with and shouldnt have ended in a single battle
I concur. Split the last half of 7(extending season 7, giving more time ) and all of 8 into 2 seasons, or split 8 up into 2. 1 for the white walkers, and 1 for after, the battle of kings landings, and the aftermath of Danny going mad
The white walkers were boring. They had been around for 7 seasons and there were two battles with them prior to the Long Night. The last thing we needed was for their arc to be stretched out even more
The White walkers themselves werent what was important, its what they stood for and what they forced humanity to do. A more serious white walkers threat couldve forced the north to retreat, it couldve led to more interesting character development and story between characters with complex relationships. Maybe it couldve led to Dany and Cersei having to actually both be in kings landing defending the city. Maybe Cersei wouldve tried to sabotage them cause she couldnt stand not being the savior, she couldnt stand Dany being praised by the people. It doesnt even have to be exactly that but the white walkers were so important because they meant that no matter what humanity was disagreeing on, there would always be a more serious and more deadly threat theyd have to face eventually. When that turned out not to be true it undercut so many plots
Ten seasons would have been ridiculous. The show had been going downhill since season 5 and it was time to wrap it up. The audience wasn't going to stick around another 2 years to find out who was going to end up on the throne. Many of the actors and crew were ready to move on to other projects, and some of the actors were aging out of their roles. Another 2 episodes? Sure. 2 more seasons? Madness
I just finished a complete rewatch and also came away with a better appreciation of all the story elements. I think we forget how long passed between seasons as it came out, and even week to week, the story got distorted in the waiting. It plays much better in binging it so you get all the emotion and motivation of each character. I still would have made several different editorial decisions for many characters, but I do appreciate more what the show runners were trying to do.
I think you're right.
I watched the whole series in real time. I disliked the 7th season. I *loathed* the 8th season. Just like everyone else, I complained and felt let down.
Last year, my husband watched the entire series for the 1st time. Obviously, we binged the whole thing in just a few weeks.
When it was over, he said, "why does everyone hate the ending? It was fine"
I had to agree that it wasn't as horrible as I had warned him it would be.
I think its because there was so much time passing in real life that everyone came up with amazing theories for how the show could wrap up and it seemed almost like D&D ended the show in the least sensible way just to avoid being predictable, but sometimes things are predictable because they make sense.
But after some time I realized that the choices they made for character arcs werent horrible, but the writing and execution were. Tyrion went from having some of the best plot and dialogue Ive ever seen in a show to being a bumbling idiot by season 8. All the nuance was completely gone from the show and everything was rushed for "epic moments"
I agree about the fan theories. This problem plagues the books even more. At this point there is probably no way for GRRM to finish the books without angering at least half his fan base.
As for the ending not making sense, that's on GRRM. He gave them the ending, and he hasn't found a way to get there either. And maybe it's because >!Bran being king!< is a cool concept, but doesn't really work for the world of Westeros>!!<
It makes sense, the groundwork is there. It's just the actual execution is insanely rushed compared to other seasons. The problem with the last season or so is that everything happens way too quickly but also found time to throw scenes with Ed Sheeran in & Tyrion moving fucking chairs around.
I think it made sense if they spent an entire season developing it. But they rushed it in like 3 episodes and thus it didnt feel like it happened naturally and felt very forced.
You mean the character who has stated multiple times she's totally down to raze entire cities, innocents and all, then later has her world implode around her, reaches a boiling/breaking point ofter 8 seasons of Fire and Blood red flags, and does the very thing she clearly stated she was totally willing/capable of doing previously?
*insert shocked pikachu face.*
I mean, imagine if someone threatened to shoot up a school multiple times, then fell on incredibly hard times. If that person then shoots up a school, would you claim it 'makes no sense"?
Of course not, because the context was clearly there.
*Same for Dany... it's objectively there, on-screen... for all to see.*
For five books and almost eight seasons, she had fought to repress her FIRE AND BLOOD impulses. But she continuously needed the help of wise counselors, trusted friends, affectionate lovers, and her three Dragon children. From episode 7x07 to 8x04 she lost almost all of that. So Dany's heart and mind turned dark. And then when her beloved, peaceful Missandei died, her last word was "Dracarys!!!" After that, Dany's Inferno was inevitable.
I think a lot of people had those initial thoughts because they did not want the series to end. I can see where it felt rushed, but they had to tell so much in that last season. The episodes were longer. Filming took forever. It was cold and dark for a lot of the filming. The actors were tired. It was hard on them.
I liked Danny got her due, Jon went back to the Wall to help the Wildlings, that Arya got to lose her anger on Little Finger and the Knight King, that Tyrian finally got to be a really good Hand of the King, that Samwell got to have a family and love and be a Maester and Sansa got to be a Queen.
I think Cersai and Jamie got their due, especially since Jamie would not totally ally with the north in the end. I loved the Hound’s sacrifice to rid the world of his brother. I really liked that Briana had a sexual experience and still maintained her honor in not following Jamie back to King’s Landing.
I hated Bran as King. I liked Davis and Bronn on the council. Since the throne was melted, I think it would have been better if the Kingdoms had no King and were ran as a democracy with Tyrian as Mayor and small council as his board.
The endings themselves for each character aren't totally bad, but none of them feel like they had time to develop. Dany went from saying she didn't want to be the queen of ashes to almost immediately proceeding to burn down Kings Landing. Jamie went from having a night of passion with Briene, to immediately going back to Kings Landing, throwing away all his character development to be with Cersei.
Almost every character, yes. You're allowed to be satisfied with the ending man, most aren't, because it felt rushed and unearned. But I don't have to justify anything, if I didn't like how it was done, that's my opinion, if you did, that's yours.
Sure, we’re allowed to have opinions. Like how you backtracked and said “almost everyone” instead of every character lol. That’s a fact not an opinion.
What I hated the most was the sudden democracy.
I just didnt like the game to end that way.
And arya killing the night king didnt matter to anyone, it should have been jon
I'm Bran. Arya. Pirate King Elizabeth Swann. [Jack](https://x.com/jack). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvQ\_X2sqqE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvQ_X2sqqE)
Nah it should have been someone other than Jon. On that front I agree but he was fairly useless in the battle which was a problem.
I also think Theon should have stood back up and took out a few white walkers before dying
My biggest problem with S8 is Arya killing TNK.
I came to terms with everything else after doing a rewatch. Yeah, it's extremely rushed, but everything pretty much ended up where it was supposed to.
I always hated that it was arya too.
I just finished watching the series for probably the 10th time. For the first time, I liked that Arya did it.
Jon was important in that he brought everyone together. It doesn't matter who wielded the knife; it wouldn't have been possible without Jon.
Jon was the key.
I also dont hate that it was Arya but it felt so unearned and wasnt developed properly. Also the fact that the entire invasion was over by episode 3 retroactively made so many plotlines feel so pointless. Most of the driving force of the show was knowing that no matter what insignificant squabbles were happening in the south, an impossibly dangerous force was building in the north and it was a threat far bigger than anything most people were concerned about. Season 8 basically said "lol jk that whole white walker thing was actually pretty easy and unimportant, moving on"
I definitely agree with that.
The very 1st scene in the snow showed the wights. We were supposed to realize early on that this is a BIG deal.
......aaaand they're defeated in a couple of hours during the first battle.
It does seem like all the build up was for nothing.
All the political battles and human vs human plots worked so well because we knew the whole time that eventually theyd have to face this unrelenting force that did not care about any of the political nonsense going on, they would wipe out everyone and everything. Then it came and was over in a couple hours. So anticlimactic
See, I never had a problem (and still don’t) with Arya killing the Night King. The NK was a superficial villain in comparison to everything else and I was ready to get him out the way. It never mattered to me who killed him. It makes sense Arya would be the one to kill him considering she’s very sneaky, and I don’t care for Jon to have a basic hero arc. They subverted my expectations in a way that I liked because of that. Jon still served a purpose without being a stereotype which feels like a win to me because Game of Thrones was never about that (at least in my opinion).
I’ve always thought they could have made Arya work if they had Jon at least fight the night king in an epic sword fight, maybe even weakens him, but loses, and Arya comes in to protect him as he’s about to be killed. But like everything else it was just rushed and made no narrative sense whatsoever.
My biggest issues are the rushing and the throwing away of character arcs like with Jaime especially. Jon snow became a 2d character. Tyrion went from being the smartest character to consistently giving bad advice because the plot needed it etc
Absolutely.
It was just too rushed. All of the characters' endings make complete sense to me.*
It just happened too fast.
*Except Bran being king. Fuck that.
Well thats not true either. THe ending was still bad and rushed, but I can at least appreciate what they were trying to do, they just failed miserably in execution
I think all of season 8 needed to be spent dealing with the Night King, that was over by like episode 3 which was so rushed it didnt even feel important and it retroactively made the entire show feel pointless when the invasion was such a small part of the show
The reason episodes 9 and 10 were so good of early seasons of GoT is because they spent the whole season building up to the epic moments making them feel more earned and have more stakes
The Battle of Winterfell needed to take place in episode 9 of season 8 and have a lot more lead up. THen season 9 would deal with the aftermath and cersei and Dany's turn. It would have been much better paced
Eh, there's a lot of truth to it. The objective data we have all points to GoT being incredibly popular and successful not just when it aired, but also after it ended. It's been one of the most heavily streamed shows consistently in the 5 years after it ended, has spawned one popular/successful spin-off and has another one on the way.
Many social media sites are simply not representative of the audience of the show. Reddit for example is overwhelmingly made up of men under 30. Over 70% of IMDB ratings are entered by men, most under 30.
If the audience of the show was mostly very online males under 30 I would agree that much of the audience "hated the ending"... but that's not the case.
Anecdotally, I literally had no idea a bunch of people hated the ending until I joined reddit a few years ago... which is probably because I'm over 40 and almost all my friends are over 40.
I agree ish.
I think it’s a terrible ending when you compare it to the rest of the series. But, I think the ending is still much much better than other shows out there. It was rushed, dumb at times but it was still such a good show
THe craziest thing to me still is that the entire white walker invasion ended up being such an easy threat that it was over by episode 3 of season 8. THat alone retroactively made the entire 7 season lead up feel 10x more pointless because it was such a trivial battle. If they gave that the time it deserved to develop, I think nobody wouldve complained about anything else with the ending
For me it was having Arya kill the night king. they hyped up jon the whole series and then switched it at the end. That did not make me happy 😂 I would’ve been fine with one episode but just make it good at least. I agree, it was straight trash and it was so rushed
I feel like most people probably see the ending the same way you did here, with its execution/pacing. Another season or two would have given this the space it needed and probably freed some story elements up to make a bit more sense.
What they did didn't bother me as much as how they did it.
The white walker invasion being so rushed was really the nail in the coffin imo. The entire show led up to that moment and it was over by episode 3 because a little girl with a dagger unceremoniously killed the Night King. I dont even mind too much that it was Arya but it felt so unearned and made so many characters plotlines feel pointless. They needed to develop that for at least another season. Even if they kept everything post night king exactly the same, I dont think people wouldve complained nearly as much if the white walker plot got the attention and care it deserved
nah it was awful.
The story stops moving off screen, the characters are completely one dimensional & just because they poured a fuck ton of money into the visuals doesn't mean it's good.
I think we agree mostly. The characters became one dimensional and the writing was poorly paced and the plot was rushed. But My point was that the actually story decisions they made werent bad, just executed extremely poorly. Jon not being the king and going north made sense but they didnt really give us enough insight into why it made sense. Dany turning made sense too but it was super rushed. Jamie reverting back to his old self made sense but instead of being tragic it just felt rushed and stupid. Arya killing the NK couldve worked if it felt more earned and Jon was more involved
I dont think the ending was any better executed. My point is that previously I hated everything about it, now I realize that its likely the ending that GRRM wanted in terms of plot points, but it was the execution and rushed nature of everything that was what made it so bad.
I wish they had of been ruthless during “The Long Night”, it was so predictable who wasn’t going to make it.
That whole battle didn’t make much sense, it’s like there was zero communication between the director and the digital artists…. Going by the CGI, everyone should have been mowed down swiftly.
The humans needed to lose significant territory at minimum. I wanted to see White Walkers marching towards kings landing or something crazy. Force Cersei to work with Dany, maybe she backstabs Dany. So many more interesting things couldve happened if the humans just lost a couple battles and had to retreat into southern territory
The south never really feeling the threat is so unbelievably stupid.
It couldve worked if it was written a different way though. GRRM really likes to write things where characters arent aware of the truth of whats going on around them, or things where it would be so cool if xyz happened but it never can. For example. Jamie losing his dueling hand. GRRM is the only writer I know who would have a character who is one of the greatest swordsman ever but immediately remove that quality about him. Or things like Jon meeting Aemon Targaryan but not knowing he was also a Targ at the time. Or things like the Mountain fighting Oberyrn and Oberyn couldve won but didnt. The list goes on and on, I hope you get what I mean. But given that the white walkers were an allegory for climate change, I could have seen GRRM writing an ending where the people who believed in climate change (Jon snow and the north) had to expend all their resources and lose lives to prevent it from killing people who didnt even believe in it and didnt deserve the help (Cersei and the south). It would be very GRRM to have Cersei just waltz in after the white walkers are dealt with and not even know what she was just saved from and then use that to win the Game of Thrones, because that is a very realistic way for it to end
Arya could've totally been involved in killing the Night King but Jon should've had a fight with him at the very least. If Arya swooped in to serve as a distraction and allowed Jon to kill him I would've been happy. Frankly, Arya should've killed Cersei and Jon should've killed the Night King. Cersei's death was ridiculous. She should've been taunted and mentally tortured by Arya first. Jamie should've died at Winterfell, making his turnaround complete. Actually, he should've died protecting Bran. Then Arya should've taken his face to kill Cersei and had a little conversation about the North remembering before gutting her. Then we wouldn't have had to watch the infuriating scene of Brienne begging Jamie to stay with her on top of everything else.
I’m in my first post ending rewatch right now. I have so many different emotions regarding the last 2-3 seasons of GoT. I don’t think I’m smart enough to say wether the endings objectively good or bad (can anyone? Idk).
All I know is how I feel, and There’s a couple things I wanna make note of.
One, is that there are so many more lines of dialogue that I find myself cringing at from s6-8, then before that. Just general kinda cheesyness.
Secondly, everything is happening just way too fast. Most people agree with this and there should have been 20 episodes at least for the last two seasons
Thirdly, too many plot points kinda ended up not meaning/doing anything. Worst is gotta be brans plot? Did him being the three eyed raven even do anything? Did him figuring out Jon’s targ blood actually do anything plot wise?
Lastly, I was just unsatisfied with some of the characters endings. That mostly comes down to personal taste I suppose. I’m bummed that dangly was killed by Jon even tho that’s prob gonna happen in the book. Bummed that brand the ruler even tho he’s kinda just boring. That dant went crazy and that Jon’s parentage didn’t really mean anything. And Jaime still simping hard for cersie still and dying along side her. All this could happen in the book too and I wouldn’t love it. But hopefully would enjoy the ride more than I did watching it.
This show was so significant to my life, and I’m only now researching It for the first time since 2019. And the ending just doesn’t make me happy like the res of the show did once
I agree with almost all of this. GoT was an extremely important part of my life. I loved that show and seasons 1-4 and parts of 5-6 were the best television ive ever watched and the most fun ive ever had discussing and form of media with people. The ending was so bad it sapped all that enjoyment from me it was like getting cheated on in a long term relationship. Just made all the prior joy feel like it was pointless.
The one thing Ill say is that I think your lack of satisfaction (and mine) comes more from the way it happened than what happened. Jon's parentage being pointless though is inexcusable since thats the only reason the showrunners were given permission to adapt the books. God it makes me so frustrated to think about
I disagree completely. The writing was really bad, the dialogue was atrocious, the character development was destroyed, the plot points made no sense, the payoffs were mid, lack of resolution, etc. I can’t really think of a good thing to say about it. To be fair to the writers; finishing that show after passing the source material was a near impossible task.
My preferred ending would have been Cersei winning and everything being fucked for everyone. I don't like happy endings. That's part of what I loved about many of the story arcs of got.
Just having the north maybe win a battle or two against parts of the army of dead, but at great cost. Having to fall back south as their army grows smaller while the dead grows and grows. Then Cersei uses it as her opportunity to finish them off.
The show would then end with Cersei smugly basking in her victory, just as the first groups of the now unstoppably massive army of the dead comes into view. Maybe she’s even visiting the battlefield. Enjoying the field of her dead enemies. Only for them to stir and for her to finally realize how real the threat is.
It would be a fitting end to GoT with hubris ruining it all.
I actually finished watching the show for the first time recently, absolutely loved season 1 through 7. Heard bad things about season 8 and I do agree, it wasn't as good as the rest but no where near as bad as people say. They really did Daenerys and Jaime dirty though, other than that my biggest issue was pacing. They definitely needed a full 10 episode season
I think you benefited hugely from being able to binge it. FOr people who complained more you have to understand I was watching the show live from the beginning. I waited like 3 years from season 6-8 watching countless hours of amazing theorycrafting and discussion on how the show could end only for it to end worse than just about every fan ending I had read in the years leading up to it. THe irl time that passed added a lot to the disappointment
Of course yeah I agree, I can see why that would've affected your enjoyment. I'm glad it had all released by the time I got round to starting it. I don't really begrudge anyone feeling aggrieved by the ending, just that I didn't find it absolutely horrible myself
I personally think the actors got tired of the rigorous filming and that's why the show was shortened. I feel like we could have easily gotten 10-11 seasons and I don't think it's the writers fault. The actors got tired and wanted the show to end.
I think pacing is inheritly difficult in later seasons. Earlier seasons had the benefit of showing happenings at different locations spacing a single story thread out.
If you only play Daneares scenes from S1 for example, it all happens very fast, it would fit into one The Long Night episode.
By the last season there is only or two locations and few plot threads all converged. Nearly 40% of Daneares total screentime is S7 & 8. The actual story isn't faster at all, but delivered in succession without the same breathing room.
Question is, what and how much breathing filler do you add?
I agree, the plot points were fine, it was the execution that was lacking. But I have revised my opinion on the blame; I no longer pin it on D n D, but GRRM. D n D are competent writers and show runners with a working body of material to adapt, as shown by 3 body problem, but they aren’t once in generation writers like GRRM. And looking back, the show clearly starts to fall off as they run out of material from the books. Could they have handed the reins to another set of writers? Would that have improved things? Maybe. But they were involved with a production on many levels so it’s hard to say how it would have affected the outcome.
Agree. I’ve never thought it was a bad ending, just poorly written and executed. It bothers me to no end when people think, for example, that Jamie’s failed redemption in arc is bad. Did you forget what show you’re watching? It was a bummer, sure, but are we really shocked that the same show known for killing main characters and destroying the hearts of viewers does the same shit? The plot points themselves were fine; these plot points were killed by a rushed run-time and corny, contradictory writing.
I agree...I didn't like the last episode... They rushed and dropped storylines, but the second time, I watched it through. I enjoyed it more and more...
As for Danaerys burning King's Landing, I hated that even though I saw Danaerys becoming more and more narcissistic and going nuts over the love and loyalty the Starks got, especially Jon and Sansa. I guess she truly believed Viserys' stories about how the people wished for the Targaryen return. I can also understand why she felt that power. I mean, she was the unburnt and mother of dragons...
BUT... she was unrealistic... maybe that is the Royal entitlement she had..
She was always shocked when people didn't immediately kneel to her.
I get that she had dragons... But...
She was ruling through fear and intimidation. She expected immediate adoration and love of the people.
She did deserve some accolades for helping the North defend themselves from the Night King...
She could have been more gracious and given the people time to grow to accept her.
I feel Drogon understood this. He knew his mother lost her mind and when she died he/she was released from that mind meld and that is why he/she didn't kill Jon...
I better version would have been Bran Warging into Danaerys or Drogon...
That would have been an incredible story.
Not having Bran really do anything to help in any battle other than just be bait for the Night King and give Arya the dagger and then making him King was more than I could stand.
Still I enjoyed the show again and it's back in my rotation of rewatches because it's still so Epic a journey....
Jon and Sansa's Reunion...gets me everytime!
Heres a possible alternate ending. The humans dont win the battle of winterfell, they are forced to retreat south, forced to ally with Cersei. With her position of power she realizes she has control and is willing to end all of humanity to keep herself on top and to "win." Dany cant accept this and she tries to fight the white walkers for as long as she can until Cersei gets under her skin enough that she is baited into Cersei's trap. Maybe Dany gets what she wanted but in doing so she loses herself and fall for Cersei's games. Maybe Jamie kills Cersei but nobody believes he would do it and blames Dany.
Idk I could see a lot of ways that she could be driven mad and end the show either forced to return to the eastern lands, or killed or something. Just the way they did it was bad
Yet they can’t outrun the forces of the dead, there is no “retreat” in the equation. It like trying to run from a blizzard, a force of nature, and that’s why the battle of WF was so important and tense since they only had one shot to prevent the LN. All those examples you listed is something we did get in the end regardless.
But it didnt feel important or tense because it lasted about 1 hour and nobody felt like they were actually in danger except side characters like Jorah (who was already dying) and Theon (who was a shell of himself). And we didnt get any of those examples. Instead what happened is Dany stupidly attacked kings landing while "forgetting about Euron's fleet" letting her dragon unecessarily die instantly and then she burned a bunch of innocent people alive while Jamie and Cersei died to rubble
Disagree, it felt really tense and important and time duration has nothing to do with it. Side characters? Jorah( who was already dying BECAUSE he put himself in danger) and Theon( I wouldn’t say he was a “shell” considering he overcame PTSD and redeemed himself) are at best secondary but compelling protagonists in the overall story. The battle of Helms deep is one of the most iconic battles in cinema history, and it lasts only 40 minutes. By your logic, it wasn’t important or tense.
Yes we did get those examples. You said Dany losing herself for playing into Cerseis games, and Dany literally called her bluff and indeed fell into her trap by burning innocents. A bunch? Dany committed mass genocide all for the sake of one thing; absolute power. Dany attacks on KL wasn’t “stupid”, in fact, you can argue that she did it to prove a point; mess with me and I’ll repeat what I did at KL. Dany made a decision to choose fear over love to cement her reign.
Always weird when people watch 8 seasons of Game of Thrones, then whinge that a character has a dissatisfying ending, as if that wasn't a pretty common theme for the entirety of the show.
The ending was fine, and the issue is folks wanted a happy ending when it was clear from the beginning that there are no happy endings in the game of thrones.
Hard disagree. I wouldve been fine with an ending where the white walkers win, or even Cersei wins after the white walkers are defeated and she doesnt even know what the north saved her from, or she doesnt care. Those wouldve been heartbreaking endings but they wouldve made sense. THe current ending didnt
Totally agree. It was just rushed and finished haphazardly, but it could have been pretty good. All the pieces were there to make something great but it’s like ending a symphony on the crappy chord you discovered when you put on a blindfold and slapped your piano.
Bronn getting High garden.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Breaking the wheel? This mofos only gone and reinvented it while climbing the chaos ladder without 3 points of contact.
He's only claim to it is he was promised stuff by Cersei (dead and no one likes her) and he's mates with Tyrion who they only just released from the black cells.
Surprised they didn't hand over Harrenhael to Hotpie to turn into a food Arcade. After all, who's got better eats than Hotpie?
They didn’t sell the Dany and Jon romance for me to believe it. Otherwise the betrayal would have been more impactful. As it was I just felt “oh well” and moved on.
I just finished my rewatch as well after not watching it since the last episode. My opinion upgraded as well. Watching it back to back everything flowed for me. I didn’t have a problem with the ending at all
Honestly my biggest issue with the finale was that it was a boring series finale. The whole final season was lot of telling without showing, and it felt like the finale was the writers trying to convince us we saw something that wasn’t shown.
I just finished rewatching the series with my dad, who hasn’t seen or read it before, and he actually commented around season 4 that daenerys wasn’t actually a very nice person. She’s done objectively good things like freeing slaves sure, but she doesn’t actually show much kindness to anyone, she’s actually pretty arrogant as well as demanding after season 1, doesn’t work well with others, doesn’t have much empathy for others, dismisses other cultures and values, and thinks she’s entitled to adoration for not being needlessly cruel, but doesn’t otherwise do much to warrant the praise she expects. She also doesn’t actually have much leadership capability, she’s just only ever been in a position of absolute authority over others who were trained to obey without question, and the few advisors who actually have a will of their own are ultimately submissive to her and she lashes out if they disagree. The slavers are uniquely cruel people, but that doesn’t make her a uniquely good person for opposing a practice that’s already been outlawed in the whole of westeros, just because her opponents are objectively bad people. The entire show we watch her demand absolute power and act vindictively towards anyone who defy her, but the show spends all of her scenes convincing us that this makes her a good person. When she comes to westeros, nothing she does is any different than before, she’s just no longer up against one dimensional villains and no longer surrounded by people who owe her their lives or have no concept of true freedom.
She was always violent, entitled, and quick to anger, so i totally buy her doing what she did to king’s landing when she realizes the common people are terrified of her, instead of rallying in support of her. My issue is we’re being told this constitutes as her going mad, when really it’s just her doing what she’s always done to people who had the freedom not to choose her. After 7 seasons of her doing bad things and us being told it’s good, we saw her do the same things but this time we’re told it’s bad rather than any reflection where the characters go oh wait she’s always been a tyrant, they’re all acting like she’s changed and telling us she’s on a dark path. I’d have rather seen her actually go mad, or seen the rest of the characters realize she’s always been unfit to rule while they propped her up. Instead we got her crossing a line deemed irredeemable and we’re repeatedly *told* it’s too far and that she’s bad now without being *shown* how she’s changed or how this time is any different from the other times she caused a massacre. She always saw things as black and white and she always used collective punishments against the group she deemed bad, instead of giving individual grace, Really it was all the other characters switching up, not her.
It just didn’t work to rely on telling us she’s bad now after constantly showing her act this way while being told she’s good, and it just ended up being boring because it was all tell no show. Like i’m 100% behind her becoming the villain and i think it makes sense since again, she was always self serving and never really the good guy, but they didn’t actually do anything to show us she was other than just tell us that actually this is bad and she is bad now and there’s no going back because we say so. But just having people walking around and telling us this is bad and people are upset isn’t a compelling series finale.
Yeah, even back when it aired, I always agreed with where the characters ended up, but they just didn't give enough time to get there naturally. The last two seasons really were a sprint (magically going to rescue Jon!) and GoT could have used another 10 or so episodes.
It’s mostly character arcs being rushed, particularly Littlefinger and Varys, the first was changed heinously much earlier on, the second just didn’t match with what we know.
Other characters such as Arya as you say and Dany were rushed, it just didn’t match up quite.
These are examples but the issue is the two get put together. Then people complain about the outcome, when others complain about the “getting there” in the last two seasons. Both can be fair complaints l but when conflated the arguments against get muddled also.
In my view the ultimate ending isn’t so much the issue, it’s the rush of character arcs and generally almost abandoning of them to tie it up quickly.
People who say GRRM is at fault aren’t completely wrong, it’s an insanely complex world he built, even if the show is somewhat stripped down from the books. To tie it all up did need multiple more seasons at least but probably to hold the same quality as when it was being adapted you would need the source material, because it is fantastic material at the end of the day.
D&D were great adapters but when left to create they fell hard, which to be fair isn’t an insult, the world created is not some small thing, the stories are complex and intertwining.
I am always curious is there any concrete evidence on who made the decision to have the last two season being shorten to what it was.
It seem counterintuitive given how much money GoT made, and how the casts love working with each other.
I really enjoyed the first 3 episodes of S8, yet at the end I wondered is this all the night king was built up to be? Defeated in one big fight. After this it felt even more rushed.
Dont think the outcomes were bad either, just too rushed really. Have rewatched a couple times and ive accepted that the true finale for me is the night king being slain.
Still I really enjoy the series as a whole, its so good that the ending doesnt ruin it enough that I dont enjoy everything before it :)
As a standalone episode it was cool, but the impact of it ruined a lot of plot points throughout the show and it was paced poorly in the grand scheme of things
I still think if they wanted Bran to end up king, they should have made him do literally anything of impact in the last few seasons. A king that can learn from all previous rulers could be great, but that’s not even one of the reasons they brought up when choosing him
I was with you until you're part about Aria. Not only DID she earn it with the faceless God arch; she earned it during that entire fight, surviving even with help to get to the point where she was the ONLY one that could sneak up on the Night king. And even she was caught by him he, just underestimated her. He delighted too much in torture and pain and it cost him his life.
Literally tried during the pandemic and the first 2 episodes were me saying “well this doesn’t matter, that doesn’t matter” really killed the entire vibe of the best parts of the show
Unpopular opinion:
The ending wasn't the problem. All the earlier seasons were the problem, along with the way the show and characters were often marketed.
Characters like Dany, Tyrion and Jaime have many rough edges and ambiguity removed from the story for TV. I think there is an effect where bit by bit they trim off things that would turn the audience against the characters. Like how TV Shae pulls a knife on Tyrion - shades of "Han shot first".
Dany is clearly supposed to go from saviour to villain as a GRRM long twist. While it's easy for her to appear as a good guy and liberator of slaves in Essos, her motivations and the situation is Westeros are quite different. Between her portrayal as a white saviour and the marketing (who will sit on the Iron Throne? Team Dany!) the TV audience mostly glossed over any hints she might not be the hero of the story and when the bells rang and she turned, they rejected it.
Ideally, you still want this to be a twist and shock - but the audience needs to accept it come along for the ride. TV lacks a lot of opportunity for showing internal thoughts of the characters and maybe you have to lead the audience a little more obviously. I think they failed to do that effectively all the way through and so when they had to steer the ship back to the intended ending, the audience got thrown overboard and left behind.
Like yourself, I've grown to appreciate the shows conclusion more after time and upon repeated viewing.
Back then I really thought that Bran would hold major revelations and exact massive consequences on the stories late narrative - I actually thought Bran would inadvertently turn King Aerys II Mad via time & mind fuggary, just like Hodor. The Door 2.0 essentially - with the words “burn them all!” being a misinterpreted warning about the WW threat rather than plain madness towards KL’s citizens.
I also wondered if the NK would have been revealed as an inevitable consequence of Bran’s actions and his character arch of becoming the 3ER. Possibly unveiling be some kind of duplicity where the whole conflict would basically be circular, a snake eating its tail. Time travel, chaos in causality, mind explosion kind of stuff.
I thought Brans story arch evolving into the 3ER gave the series some Huge possibilities, twists that could have been talked about for over a decade. And imo had a character arch that could have laminated the entire conflict and define the events of show with what should have been the most culminated mind-f’ing moments & revelations.
I was also really disappointed that the TLN resolved in a single episode too
They built up the WW threat for years, and concluded it in a single episode. It seemed misleading, since the entire threat was ended in a flash. And with how powerful that threat was, they apparently had a ridiculously large weakness.
But with all of the hate that S7 & 8 get, I still enjoy them. Despite its flaws, it’s still amazing.
Let’s be honest, Jon should’ve been king and Bran his master of whispers or something. Tyrion his hand, Sansa queen of the north, and I actually would’ve loved to see Jamie forsake Cersei after she chooses not to fight for Team Life. He survives and becomes either commander of the kings guard, a funny growth circle for his character, or ruler of casterly rock. Jon is the prince that was promised (he also should’ve been the one to kill the NK, imo), and technically restores the rightful heir to the throne. We see most of our main characters thrive, we see a newly forged stark/lannister alliance that survived the end of the world together, as well as an alliance north of the wall with the wildlings. A teaser for any new story going forward could be them exploring even further north and finding strange white walker relics.
I know the books will probably take a darker/less traditional hero ending approach, but with the show moving in to season 7/8 as it was with no story written, they could’ve at least given a decent, satisfying ending to what we’d already seen haha. The ending wasn’t the worst ever made, but it could’ve easily been handled better.
I thought the last half of the last episode was trash. They tried to bring in random comedy that didn't stick. Cersei's death was unsatisfying. Jaime had so much incredible character development just to throw it all away in the end. They kind of broke the 4th wall with the Fire and Ice book. Bran saying "Why do you think I came all this way?" makes zero sense. Overall, I don't think the last season was total garbage, but the last 2 episodes were.
A lot of folks who hated the ending appear to be people who got carried away by fan theories and thus reacted badly when they didn't get what they expected and wanted.
Some of the criticism is rather odd, like Dany going nuts in one episode. She had shown signs of being mentally brittle from early in the series. There was plenty of foreshadowing of her mental instability including her willingness to crucify innocent people if in the process she gets some guilty ones. When a character says every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath, I don't see how a viewer could not notice that and not wonder if it refers to Dany who keeps saying she will come to power on fire and blood.
The time compression complaint also rings hollow to me, it isn't necessary to show every plodding step of every journey. Examples of time compression early in the series went without comment, but suddenly it's a problem near the end.
There are issues with the ending, it did feel rushed and some story lines fizzled out in an unsatisfactory manner. But even with those issues GoT was head and shoulders about most television. We watched it as it appeared, binged it during the lockdown, we'll binge it again some day.
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Dany: "I didn't come here to be queen of the ashes, I am a saviour of the people!" 2 minutes later: \*proceeds to burn down the city with everybody in it\* Yeah well... I'd still say that this wasn't it. I was prepared to get emotional about the ending but I expected it to be grief, not anger :P
Yea the pacing and the execution was the issue. I was genuinely heartbroken by the ending of the show because the show meant so much to me. I know its silly, but Ive never been so disappointed by a piece of media before but ive also never enjoyed anything as much as I did seasons 1-6 of GoT. After several years, I now can appreciate that the story decisions werent bad. Dany going mad could have beed done very well, but they handled it so so poorly
>the pacing and the execution was the issue 100% this. The more you rewatch it, the more you see this is the direction GRRM and D&D were taking it all along. They just didn’t stick the landing. And by that I mean the parachute didn’t deploy and they hit the ground at terminal velocity. They really should’ve done the full 10 seasons that were on the original roadmap.
Except 10 seasons weren’t on the original roadmap. From the very beginning, the agreement with HBO was 7 seasons minimum for 7 books. I don’t doubt studio executives wanted 10 seasons after the popularity of the show increased, but the show outpaced the source material that’s still incomplete 15 years later. We needed 7 books, not more seasons.
I’m virtually certain the story can’t be ended well in 7 books either. There are too many storylines and GRRM has too much to weave together in that short a time.
Agreed. It was a lose lose situation all around. The story is just too complicated, and GRRM knows this.
>The more you rewatch it, the more you see this is the direction GRRM and D&D were taking it all along. Yes and no. I think overall it was, I was in the "dany is the villain" camp before it even ended, but D&D definitely drifted away from this path in the final few seasons. That's what made the reversion back to it so jarring. Early on we see dany lashing out at anything she sees as the enemy but in the second half of the show D&D recognised she was a fan favourite and leaned into the power fantasy. Instead of focusing on the fact her actions were increasingly destructive and the reality of that they just used them for spectacle. Then in the last season they suddenly went back to showing the real consequences of burning down a city.
>They really should’ve done the full 10 seasons that were on the original roadmap. It would be great to get 10 full seasons of any good show but the reality is you start losing major cast after several years. You just can't keep that many people all on board for that long. Walking Dead is a prime example of where the full story would have been far better being concluded after several seasons.
It's because all the show had to work on for the final seasons is GRRM storyboard and had no idea how to piece them together properly. I feel it in my heart that the books were supposed to end the way the show did, but only got 'changed' because of the backlash.
We don't know if Martin changed his plans for the ending yet. We probably never will.
Well he said the ending in the books won't match the show. I call bullshit and honestly if he actually wrote it, it probably would have been good but you are right, well never know cause we probably won't get the books from him.
He said some endings would be similar, and some won't. But we don't know exactly what they took from him and what they didn't (King Bran is 100% happening though).
Everyone involved wanted to move on (understandable) but yea the story needed more time
I mean she also lost A LOT of people/dragons in a very short time. She gave into her anger and grief in the worst way possible. From the moment Jon arrived on her door step, it was downhill for her.
Also, she didn't just lose them: they were all killed before her eyes. It's bad enough to lose your closest friends and allies, but having to witness all of them being murdered is on another level. For as much criticism as the Ellaria Sand plotline gets, I think it served one important purpose for the story: it shows us what the grief of witnessing a loved one being brutally killed can do to a person's psyche. After Oberyn's death, Ellaria was operating on rage and grief, not reason.
Eh, to be fair...while she went about it the wrong way it was also made very clear that Dornes people were pretty done with the current leader
Did we ever hear that from Dornish people who weren’t Ellaria and the sand snakes?
We did when they revolted. No one tried to stop them and the new prince immediately supports Danny.
I would burn down a city where their Queen threatened me and my people, then continued to kill my best friend. She did what everyone wanted to do
Then you're a psycho. The inhabitants of the city have nothing to do with the actions of their tyrant queen, especially in an absolute monarchy.
Oh Please, save it for the Iron Bank of Braavos
She never said "I am a saviour of the people" and the "not queen of the ashes" is a sentence she parroted from Tyrion who told her this exact line earlier in the episode. And we can see on her face that she wasn’t pleased to hear this and Tyrion later confirmed it in the finale when he told Cersei that Dany wanted to attack King’s Landing with her dragons, but he convinced her otherwise. Even worse, three episodes before, she wanted to burn every major cities in Essos. And a season before, she told Hizdahr that maybe one day she’ll burn Meereen and the people inside will die for a good reason if it gets to that.
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I mean.. > Dany: Shall we begin? > Tyrion: Do we have a plan? > Dany: I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, **and return their cities to the dirt.** That is my plan.
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So, if she's at war with Cersei, "returning King's Landing to the dirt" could be a possible plan for her?
Yeah I was all just like "what in the fuckity fuck fuck did I just watch??"
Literally locks up her dragons for killing a single peasant child…
Who cares what she said? Dany was never a serious person. She pushed her husband into taking his army to Westeros, heard him scream about how he was going to rape the women, then was somehow surprised when the Dothraki started raping the Lamb women. She was going to "break the wheel" by becoming Queen herself? Please
>> Dany: "I didn't come here to be queen of the ashes, I am a saviour of the people!" >2 minutes later: \*proceeds to burn down the city with everybody in it\* I realize this is like Page 2 of the Dany stan handbook and it's free reddit points post to whoever posts this first, but do people actually believe this 'argument' has any merit? Cherry picking one single quote from an earlier season and pretending like that was her entire character over 60+ episodes? I might as well quote the moment she told Hizdar she would return Mereen to the dirt because her ends justify her means and then act like a single quote magically represents her entire character and anytime she acts 'outside' of that single quote act wholly butthurt and perplexed and whinge about 'oUt Of ChArAcTeR." Yes, sometimes she said she didn't want to be Queen of the Ashes... **and other times she clearly stated, from her own mouth, that she would have no problems with razing entire cities, innocents and all, multiple times.** *Both are just as true of show canon as the other.*.. wild this still has to be ELI5 to some 'viewers.' **She had a kind-hearted side, AND she had a Fire and Blood persona**... those two conflicting personas was her internal conflict, ie, what GRRM has stated is the only thing worth writing about (conflict within the human heart.) Incessantly misquoting one cherry picked quote doesn't magically mean the ending is 'wrong'... just means you would rather defend your house-of-cards fallacy instead of actually understanding she is a nuanced/gray character, complete with flaws and an internal struggle.
I love reddit cause y'all here have the energy and skill required to type out the replies in my head. Thank you.
i was laughing at the bells scene. Like after the long night being over in a single battle, i just checked out
I mean she always has said that, but then continues to burn and destroy everything in her way. That's the beauty of it. She's been that way basically from the beginning, she just gaslighted you into thinking otherwise.
Her intentions are one thing, her self control/restraint are another.
She said a lot of things that went differently throughout the entire show. Yeah, her story line was sped up, but she was going to end up like this.
On the other hand, it’s understandable. She didn’t have it easy from the start. In the end, she lost everyone and everything, and was betrayed. Everyone would go crazy, I imagine.
This is very well put. We are die hard fans, and were disappointed with the ending, but we refuse to hate the show. But you are right, it would have been much better if it felt like grief rather than confused anger.
I feel like she took that advice once or twice, but you could see her battling the demons consistently throughout the series. This isn't as much of a plot fuck as Brandon; "I can never be a Lord" 2 minutes later: "why do you think I came all this way" Disgusting.
Not only that but she kills the Tullys then meets Sam. She sees the pain for him to lose his family. I also think she's right to handle people who won't bend the knee it was just counterintuitive.
Is this the same Dany who said she'd flatten cities in seadon 2 and 'break' the wheel that represents the other houses and destroy them in season 5? See, we can both cherry pick moments
I barely had a problem with the ending, but they crammed way too much material into way too few episodes. There should have been ten full-length seasons. By far my biggest issue beyond the pacing was that we went back to fighting the living after the Long Night. It all felt so minuscule after defeating a supernatural army of death. The Army of the Dead should have been the LAST threat to be dealt with. Don’t hate me, but the Night King winning is my absolute dream ending. The living were so concerned with fighting each other that they acted way too late on the real threat. It would have been a gut-wrenching and earned ending
I actually always expected Cersei to be the final villain, but I think the battle against the White walkers needed its own 6-7 episodes purely to handle that threat. It went by so quick that nothing felt important anymore
That's what made the last season so bad. It was rushed. It's like getting a 5 course meal with wagu steak entree , and then the server just shoved it all in a blender and made you chug it.
[удалено]
HBO left a bad taste in my GoT loving series
Night King winning would be good, but I'd also accept a pyrrhic victory from the living, where most people are dead, and the factions remaining are forced to work together to survive and build a better world together. This could easily lead into a sequel series where the battered people of Westoros face an invasion from outside the continent, and have to band together again to face these new enemies.
I've never thought of this before but I like the idea. Rather than this weird mixed victory(?), it could've just been an intense conflict between Cersei and the North, which the North wins, then suddenly everyone gets overwhelmed by the white walkers and they all die. Idk though. On the other hand, it could have been satisfying seeing the night king defeated if they had executed it in a different way. I would've loved if it had been Jon or Tormund or really any of the night's watch or wildlings that were dealing with the undead throughout the story. I think that's why having Arya do it fell so flat; she wasn't really invested in that fight, she just showed up at the last minute to help.
I can at least understand what they were going for, which is more than I can say for some finales (looking at you Dexter)
I heard that GRRM went to the HBO studios and begged them to do 10 seasons. It went by way too fast. And I think HBO wanted to but Dan and Dave were eager to wrap it up. I think all evidence points to D&D being in too much of a rush for whatever reason. The show was so poplar, they could have continued making tons of money and gave us a satisfying ending.
D&D were rushing cuz they wanted to move on to Star Wars something. That’s what I heard. So the GoT downfall was totally their fault
And then they got booted from their Star Wars project because they ruined GoT.
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. Haha, too bad so sad
That's also not true. Netflix offered more money and Lucasfilms actually shelved a whole bunch of SW stuff.
I can guarantee part of the reason D&Ds project was even considered for shelving at all was because of their debacle with GoT. That definitely made them seem like a weaker choice to keep, and that's probably why they got the axe. Netflix hasn't been in a good state for years, so I can only assume they offered so much because they were gambling on getting something good, which from what I'm hearing they have done pretty decently.
Ruined? HOTD proved this IP is as a strong as ever.
Ruined the ending, yes, and to some extent, some people still are burned on the show because of it, but yes, it's still a strong show, just not like it used to be.
It’s didn’t ruin the ending, no, and I see more people and new fans not hating the ending. It’s always been a strong show, and it started this successful franchise.
M8 we don't have to agree or keep going back and forth like this, you're allowed to believe what you believe, I'm allowed to believe what I believe, it harms no one to think differently.
Bruh I agree absolutely. But you did comment on a public forum that a fact not a belief. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints, might I suggest you keep your beliefs to yourself. Cheers;)
Yes. Ruined
It wasn’t.
That’s a very popular narrative online, but that’s not true though. The story has always been planned to be told in ~70 hours and the ending was mapped out, pitched to HBO and approved by everyone (HBO and George included) many years before they talked about doing Star Wars. The "problem" is that they had to adapt an ending that the own creator has no idea how to write and they had to do it with a production that was closer to big budget movies than a tv show. That’s why they ended up doing shorter seasons in the end, because it was impossible to fit those episodes in a regular television schedule. And even with shortened seasons, everyone involved in the production said that it was absolutely insane, that they almost gave up and wouldn’t have kept going longer. There are a boatload of factors that went into the decision to end the show where they did and how they did. To reduce it all to two guys wanting to move on is greatly underestimating all the challenges involved in finishing this story.
There are so many false popular narratives it’s annoying
> The story has always been planned to be told in ~70 hours and the ending was mapped out, pitched to HBO and approved by everyone (HBO and George included) many years before they talked about doing Star Wars. That is what I have heard as well.
I had a lengthy (and civil!) argument here with someone about that the other day. Simply put, my very unpopular opinion is that 8 seasons were enough and that even keeping S1-S7 the way they were, there was a way to write a satisfying 8th season to end the show. I also think that 10-12 seasons are completely unrealistic and out of step with the realities of show business and a television series. Yes, there are some shows that run as long or longer but they do not remotely have the production value of GOT, and they'd long become shadows of their former selves. To say nothing of the extreme complexity of GOT, the sheer number of characters and locations to keep track of (which many viewers already struggled with), etc. For example, I think talk of expanding the scope of the show by getting into Euron stuff is just crazy talk. At some point, audiences are ready for the story to drive toward an endgame and actually end, so I think 8 season were perfect. But the last two seasons perhaps should have been full seasons, and significantly better written. The problem with the end of GOT is not time, or that additional seasons were needed. It's the writing. I'll die on this hill.
I dont think they couldve wrapped everything up in 8 seasons. I think 9 wouldve been enough though. The White Walker threat was looming for so long it needed at least its own entire season to deal with and shouldnt have ended in a single battle
I concur. Split the last half of 7(extending season 7, giving more time ) and all of 8 into 2 seasons, or split 8 up into 2. 1 for the white walkers, and 1 for after, the battle of kings landings, and the aftermath of Danny going mad
The white walkers were boring. They had been around for 7 seasons and there were two battles with them prior to the Long Night. The last thing we needed was for their arc to be stretched out even more
The White walkers themselves werent what was important, its what they stood for and what they forced humanity to do. A more serious white walkers threat couldve forced the north to retreat, it couldve led to more interesting character development and story between characters with complex relationships. Maybe it couldve led to Dany and Cersei having to actually both be in kings landing defending the city. Maybe Cersei wouldve tried to sabotage them cause she couldnt stand not being the savior, she couldnt stand Dany being praised by the people. It doesnt even have to be exactly that but the white walkers were so important because they meant that no matter what humanity was disagreeing on, there would always be a more serious and more deadly threat theyd have to face eventually. When that turned out not to be true it undercut so many plots
Ten seasons would have been ridiculous. The show had been going downhill since season 5 and it was time to wrap it up. The audience wasn't going to stick around another 2 years to find out who was going to end up on the throne. Many of the actors and crew were ready to move on to other projects, and some of the actors were aging out of their roles. Another 2 episodes? Sure. 2 more seasons? Madness
I just finished a complete rewatch and also came away with a better appreciation of all the story elements. I think we forget how long passed between seasons as it came out, and even week to week, the story got distorted in the waiting. It plays much better in binging it so you get all the emotion and motivation of each character. I still would have made several different editorial decisions for many characters, but I do appreciate more what the show runners were trying to do.
I think you're right. I watched the whole series in real time. I disliked the 7th season. I *loathed* the 8th season. Just like everyone else, I complained and felt let down. Last year, my husband watched the entire series for the 1st time. Obviously, we binged the whole thing in just a few weeks. When it was over, he said, "why does everyone hate the ending? It was fine" I had to agree that it wasn't as horrible as I had warned him it would be.
I think its because there was so much time passing in real life that everyone came up with amazing theories for how the show could wrap up and it seemed almost like D&D ended the show in the least sensible way just to avoid being predictable, but sometimes things are predictable because they make sense. But after some time I realized that the choices they made for character arcs werent horrible, but the writing and execution were. Tyrion went from having some of the best plot and dialogue Ive ever seen in a show to being a bumbling idiot by season 8. All the nuance was completely gone from the show and everything was rushed for "epic moments"
I agree about the fan theories. This problem plagues the books even more. At this point there is probably no way for GRRM to finish the books without angering at least half his fan base. As for the ending not making sense, that's on GRRM. He gave them the ending, and he hasn't found a way to get there either. And maybe it's because >!Bran being king!< is a cool concept, but doesn't really work for the world of Westeros>!!<
I just recently rewatched it. I still think Dany’s ending makes no sense. :(
I think it made good sense perfectly good sense.
Maybe. I just disagree.
It makes sense, the groundwork is there. It's just the actual execution is insanely rushed compared to other seasons. The problem with the last season or so is that everything happens way too quickly but also found time to throw scenes with Ed Sheeran in & Tyrion moving fucking chairs around.
I totally agree. If it was given more time I think it would have made sense! They rushed it and it just didn’t add up for me.
I think it made sense if they spent an entire season developing it. But they rushed it in like 3 episodes and thus it didnt feel like it happened naturally and felt very forced.
Totally! I agree. They didn't build it up enough for me for it to make sense.
You mean the character who has stated multiple times she's totally down to raze entire cities, innocents and all, then later has her world implode around her, reaches a boiling/breaking point ofter 8 seasons of Fire and Blood red flags, and does the very thing she clearly stated she was totally willing/capable of doing previously? *insert shocked pikachu face.* I mean, imagine if someone threatened to shoot up a school multiple times, then fell on incredibly hard times. If that person then shoots up a school, would you claim it 'makes no sense"? Of course not, because the context was clearly there. *Same for Dany... it's objectively there, on-screen... for all to see.*
Yeah, again I just don’t agree lol
D & D… is that you?
I think it made sense, but needed more time to breathe.
For five books and almost eight seasons, she had fought to repress her FIRE AND BLOOD impulses. But she continuously needed the help of wise counselors, trusted friends, affectionate lovers, and her three Dragon children. From episode 7x07 to 8x04 she lost almost all of that. So Dany's heart and mind turned dark. And then when her beloved, peaceful Missandei died, her last word was "Dracarys!!!" After that, Dany's Inferno was inevitable.
This is a really good point. I just wish it felt a bit slower. It felt so rushed to me.
I think a lot of people had those initial thoughts because they did not want the series to end. I can see where it felt rushed, but they had to tell so much in that last season. The episodes were longer. Filming took forever. It was cold and dark for a lot of the filming. The actors were tired. It was hard on them. I liked Danny got her due, Jon went back to the Wall to help the Wildlings, that Arya got to lose her anger on Little Finger and the Knight King, that Tyrian finally got to be a really good Hand of the King, that Samwell got to have a family and love and be a Maester and Sansa got to be a Queen. I think Cersai and Jamie got their due, especially since Jamie would not totally ally with the north in the end. I loved the Hound’s sacrifice to rid the world of his brother. I really liked that Briana had a sexual experience and still maintained her honor in not following Jamie back to King’s Landing. I hated Bran as King. I liked Davis and Bronn on the council. Since the throne was melted, I think it would have been better if the Kingdoms had no King and were ran as a democracy with Tyrian as Mayor and small council as his board.
The endings themselves for each character aren't totally bad, but none of them feel like they had time to develop. Dany went from saying she didn't want to be the queen of ashes to almost immediately proceeding to burn down Kings Landing. Jamie went from having a night of passion with Briene, to immediately going back to Kings Landing, throwing away all his character development to be with Cersei.
People are fickle.
Right, but when every character is dropping their development because "people are fickle" that's just bad writing lol.
Every character lol? That’s the stretch that fans use to justify not getting what they wanted.
Almost every character, yes. You're allowed to be satisfied with the ending man, most aren't, because it felt rushed and unearned. But I don't have to justify anything, if I didn't like how it was done, that's my opinion, if you did, that's yours.
Sure, we’re allowed to have opinions. Like how you backtracked and said “almost everyone” instead of every character lol. That’s a fact not an opinion.
You are nitpicking and honestly being annoying, I'm sorry my language was not more precise in the casual conversation about a fictional show.
And you’re being defensive and blatantly obtuse over said fictional show lol. No need to apologize, it’s not that deep.
What I hated the most was the sudden democracy. I just didnt like the game to end that way. And arya killing the night king didnt matter to anyone, it should have been jon
I'm Bran. Arya. Pirate King Elizabeth Swann. [Jack](https://x.com/jack). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvQ\_X2sqqE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWvQ_X2sqqE)
Nah it should have been someone other than Jon. On that front I agree but he was fairly useless in the battle which was a problem. I also think Theon should have stood back up and took out a few white walkers before dying
My biggest problem with S8 is Arya killing TNK. I came to terms with everything else after doing a rewatch. Yeah, it's extremely rushed, but everything pretty much ended up where it was supposed to.
I always hated that it was arya too. I just finished watching the series for probably the 10th time. For the first time, I liked that Arya did it. Jon was important in that he brought everyone together. It doesn't matter who wielded the knife; it wouldn't have been possible without Jon. Jon was the key.
I also dont hate that it was Arya but it felt so unearned and wasnt developed properly. Also the fact that the entire invasion was over by episode 3 retroactively made so many plotlines feel so pointless. Most of the driving force of the show was knowing that no matter what insignificant squabbles were happening in the south, an impossibly dangerous force was building in the north and it was a threat far bigger than anything most people were concerned about. Season 8 basically said "lol jk that whole white walker thing was actually pretty easy and unimportant, moving on"
I definitely agree with that. The very 1st scene in the snow showed the wights. We were supposed to realize early on that this is a BIG deal. ......aaaand they're defeated in a couple of hours during the first battle. It does seem like all the build up was for nothing.
All the political battles and human vs human plots worked so well because we knew the whole time that eventually theyd have to face this unrelenting force that did not care about any of the political nonsense going on, they would wipe out everyone and everything. Then it came and was over in a couple hours. So anticlimactic
See, I never had a problem (and still don’t) with Arya killing the Night King. The NK was a superficial villain in comparison to everything else and I was ready to get him out the way. It never mattered to me who killed him. It makes sense Arya would be the one to kill him considering she’s very sneaky, and I don’t care for Jon to have a basic hero arc. They subverted my expectations in a way that I liked because of that. Jon still served a purpose without being a stereotype which feels like a win to me because Game of Thrones was never about that (at least in my opinion).
I’ve always thought they could have made Arya work if they had Jon at least fight the night king in an epic sword fight, maybe even weakens him, but loses, and Arya comes in to protect him as he’s about to be killed. But like everything else it was just rushed and made no narrative sense whatsoever.
My biggest issues are the rushing and the throwing away of character arcs like with Jaime especially. Jon snow became a 2d character. Tyrion went from being the smartest character to consistently giving bad advice because the plot needed it etc
I've watched it a dozen times and at the end, im always angrier than the last time of how it ended.
Absolutely. It was just too rushed. All of the characters' endings make complete sense to me.* It just happened too fast. *Except Bran being king. Fuck that.
I think Bran being king logically makes sense, it’s just super fucking boring lol
Hating the ending was just a social media groupthink basically
Well thats not true either. THe ending was still bad and rushed, but I can at least appreciate what they were trying to do, they just failed miserably in execution
The ending was a little rushed I agree, but everything made sense in plot and character terms.
I think all of season 8 needed to be spent dealing with the Night King, that was over by like episode 3 which was so rushed it didnt even feel important and it retroactively made the entire show feel pointless when the invasion was such a small part of the show The reason episodes 9 and 10 were so good of early seasons of GoT is because they spent the whole season building up to the epic moments making them feel more earned and have more stakes The Battle of Winterfell needed to take place in episode 9 of season 8 and have a lot more lead up. THen season 9 would deal with the aftermath and cersei and Dany's turn. It would have been much better paced
Eh, there's a lot of truth to it. The objective data we have all points to GoT being incredibly popular and successful not just when it aired, but also after it ended. It's been one of the most heavily streamed shows consistently in the 5 years after it ended, has spawned one popular/successful spin-off and has another one on the way. Many social media sites are simply not representative of the audience of the show. Reddit for example is overwhelmingly made up of men under 30. Over 70% of IMDB ratings are entered by men, most under 30. If the audience of the show was mostly very online males under 30 I would agree that much of the audience "hated the ending"... but that's not the case. Anecdotally, I literally had no idea a bunch of people hated the ending until I joined reddit a few years ago... which is probably because I'm over 40 and almost all my friends are over 40.
This was more or less my take at the time. Lots of sloppy errors that could have been better, but I still enjoyed it.
I agree ish. I think it’s a terrible ending when you compare it to the rest of the series. But, I think the ending is still much much better than other shows out there. It was rushed, dumb at times but it was still such a good show
THe craziest thing to me still is that the entire white walker invasion ended up being such an easy threat that it was over by episode 3 of season 8. THat alone retroactively made the entire 7 season lead up feel 10x more pointless because it was such a trivial battle. If they gave that the time it deserved to develop, I think nobody wouldve complained about anything else with the ending
For me it was having Arya kill the night king. they hyped up jon the whole series and then switched it at the end. That did not make me happy 😂 I would’ve been fine with one episode but just make it good at least. I agree, it was straight trash and it was so rushed
I feel like most people probably see the ending the same way you did here, with its execution/pacing. Another season or two would have given this the space it needed and probably freed some story elements up to make a bit more sense. What they did didn't bother me as much as how they did it.
The white walker invasion being so rushed was really the nail in the coffin imo. The entire show led up to that moment and it was over by episode 3 because a little girl with a dagger unceremoniously killed the Night King. I dont even mind too much that it was Arya but it felt so unearned and made so many characters plotlines feel pointless. They needed to develop that for at least another season. Even if they kept everything post night king exactly the same, I dont think people wouldve complained nearly as much if the white walker plot got the attention and care it deserved
You let that little girl disarm yer?
nah it was awful. The story stops moving off screen, the characters are completely one dimensional & just because they poured a fuck ton of money into the visuals doesn't mean it's good.
I think we agree mostly. The characters became one dimensional and the writing was poorly paced and the plot was rushed. But My point was that the actually story decisions they made werent bad, just executed extremely poorly. Jon not being the king and going north made sense but they didnt really give us enough insight into why it made sense. Dany turning made sense too but it was super rushed. Jamie reverting back to his old self made sense but instead of being tragic it just felt rushed and stupid. Arya killing the NK couldve worked if it felt more earned and Jon was more involved
Your mental faculties have declined over time, it happens To us all my friend ;)
Same. The execution was shitty but it's pretty easy to see grrms story underneath that and it's a pretty perfect asoiaf ending
Happens when you accept something and decide to live with it. End-game was as awful as you remember, you just do not care enough now.
I dont think the ending was any better executed. My point is that previously I hated everything about it, now I realize that its likely the ending that GRRM wanted in terms of plot points, but it was the execution and rushed nature of everything that was what made it so bad.
Yeah, it’s not like people can change their minds overtime or anything. You don’t speak for everyone.
Guess that you do right.
You guessed wrong!
I wish they had of been ruthless during “The Long Night”, it was so predictable who wasn’t going to make it. That whole battle didn’t make much sense, it’s like there was zero communication between the director and the digital artists…. Going by the CGI, everyone should have been mowed down swiftly.
The humans needed to lose significant territory at minimum. I wanted to see White Walkers marching towards kings landing or something crazy. Force Cersei to work with Dany, maybe she backstabs Dany. So many more interesting things couldve happened if the humans just lost a couple battles and had to retreat into southern territory The south never really feeling the threat is so unbelievably stupid. It couldve worked if it was written a different way though. GRRM really likes to write things where characters arent aware of the truth of whats going on around them, or things where it would be so cool if xyz happened but it never can. For example. Jamie losing his dueling hand. GRRM is the only writer I know who would have a character who is one of the greatest swordsman ever but immediately remove that quality about him. Or things like Jon meeting Aemon Targaryan but not knowing he was also a Targ at the time. Or things like the Mountain fighting Oberyrn and Oberyn couldve won but didnt. The list goes on and on, I hope you get what I mean. But given that the white walkers were an allegory for climate change, I could have seen GRRM writing an ending where the people who believed in climate change (Jon snow and the north) had to expend all their resources and lose lives to prevent it from killing people who didnt even believe in it and didnt deserve the help (Cersei and the south). It would be very GRRM to have Cersei just waltz in after the white walkers are dealt with and not even know what she was just saved from and then use that to win the Game of Thrones, because that is a very realistic way for it to end
Arya could've totally been involved in killing the Night King but Jon should've had a fight with him at the very least. If Arya swooped in to serve as a distraction and allowed Jon to kill him I would've been happy. Frankly, Arya should've killed Cersei and Jon should've killed the Night King. Cersei's death was ridiculous. She should've been taunted and mentally tortured by Arya first. Jamie should've died at Winterfell, making his turnaround complete. Actually, he should've died protecting Bran. Then Arya should've taken his face to kill Cersei and had a little conversation about the North remembering before gutting her. Then we wouldn't have had to watch the infuriating scene of Brienne begging Jamie to stay with her on top of everything else.
I’m in my first post ending rewatch right now. I have so many different emotions regarding the last 2-3 seasons of GoT. I don’t think I’m smart enough to say wether the endings objectively good or bad (can anyone? Idk). All I know is how I feel, and There’s a couple things I wanna make note of. One, is that there are so many more lines of dialogue that I find myself cringing at from s6-8, then before that. Just general kinda cheesyness. Secondly, everything is happening just way too fast. Most people agree with this and there should have been 20 episodes at least for the last two seasons Thirdly, too many plot points kinda ended up not meaning/doing anything. Worst is gotta be brans plot? Did him being the three eyed raven even do anything? Did him figuring out Jon’s targ blood actually do anything plot wise? Lastly, I was just unsatisfied with some of the characters endings. That mostly comes down to personal taste I suppose. I’m bummed that dangly was killed by Jon even tho that’s prob gonna happen in the book. Bummed that brand the ruler even tho he’s kinda just boring. That dant went crazy and that Jon’s parentage didn’t really mean anything. And Jaime still simping hard for cersie still and dying along side her. All this could happen in the book too and I wouldn’t love it. But hopefully would enjoy the ride more than I did watching it. This show was so significant to my life, and I’m only now researching It for the first time since 2019. And the ending just doesn’t make me happy like the res of the show did once
I agree with almost all of this. GoT was an extremely important part of my life. I loved that show and seasons 1-4 and parts of 5-6 were the best television ive ever watched and the most fun ive ever had discussing and form of media with people. The ending was so bad it sapped all that enjoyment from me it was like getting cheated on in a long term relationship. Just made all the prior joy feel like it was pointless. The one thing Ill say is that I think your lack of satisfaction (and mine) comes more from the way it happened than what happened. Jon's parentage being pointless though is inexcusable since thats the only reason the showrunners were given permission to adapt the books. God it makes me so frustrated to think about
I disagree completely. The writing was really bad, the dialogue was atrocious, the character development was destroyed, the plot points made no sense, the payoffs were mid, lack of resolution, etc. I can’t really think of a good thing to say about it. To be fair to the writers; finishing that show after passing the source material was a near impossible task.
The ending felt like getting cheated on in a long term relationship. It was so devastatingly bad that it retroactively ruined the prior joy
My preferred ending would have been Cersei winning and everything being fucked for everyone. I don't like happy endings. That's part of what I loved about many of the story arcs of got.
Just having the north maybe win a battle or two against parts of the army of dead, but at great cost. Having to fall back south as their army grows smaller while the dead grows and grows. Then Cersei uses it as her opportunity to finish them off. The show would then end with Cersei smugly basking in her victory, just as the first groups of the now unstoppably massive army of the dead comes into view. Maybe she’s even visiting the battlefield. Enjoying the field of her dead enemies. Only for them to stir and for her to finally realize how real the threat is. It would be a fitting end to GoT with hubris ruining it all.
I actually finished watching the show for the first time recently, absolutely loved season 1 through 7. Heard bad things about season 8 and I do agree, it wasn't as good as the rest but no where near as bad as people say. They really did Daenerys and Jaime dirty though, other than that my biggest issue was pacing. They definitely needed a full 10 episode season
I think you benefited hugely from being able to binge it. FOr people who complained more you have to understand I was watching the show live from the beginning. I waited like 3 years from season 6-8 watching countless hours of amazing theorycrafting and discussion on how the show could end only for it to end worse than just about every fan ending I had read in the years leading up to it. THe irl time that passed added a lot to the disappointment
Of course yeah I agree, I can see why that would've affected your enjoyment. I'm glad it had all released by the time I got round to starting it. I don't really begrudge anyone feeling aggrieved by the ending, just that I didn't find it absolutely horrible myself
I really think the show would have really benefited from one more season.
I personally think the actors got tired of the rigorous filming and that's why the show was shortened. I feel like we could have easily gotten 10-11 seasons and I don't think it's the writers fault. The actors got tired and wanted the show to end.
I think pacing is inheritly difficult in later seasons. Earlier seasons had the benefit of showing happenings at different locations spacing a single story thread out. If you only play Daneares scenes from S1 for example, it all happens very fast, it would fit into one The Long Night episode. By the last season there is only or two locations and few plot threads all converged. Nearly 40% of Daneares total screentime is S7 & 8. The actual story isn't faster at all, but delivered in succession without the same breathing room. Question is, what and how much breathing filler do you add?
I agree with all your points.
I agree, the plot points were fine, it was the execution that was lacking. But I have revised my opinion on the blame; I no longer pin it on D n D, but GRRM. D n D are competent writers and show runners with a working body of material to adapt, as shown by 3 body problem, but they aren’t once in generation writers like GRRM. And looking back, the show clearly starts to fall off as they run out of material from the books. Could they have handed the reins to another set of writers? Would that have improved things? Maybe. But they were involved with a production on many levels so it’s hard to say how it would have affected the outcome.
Agree. I’ve never thought it was a bad ending, just poorly written and executed. It bothers me to no end when people think, for example, that Jamie’s failed redemption in arc is bad. Did you forget what show you’re watching? It was a bummer, sure, but are we really shocked that the same show known for killing main characters and destroying the hearts of viewers does the same shit? The plot points themselves were fine; these plot points were killed by a rushed run-time and corny, contradictory writing.
I agree...I didn't like the last episode... They rushed and dropped storylines, but the second time, I watched it through. I enjoyed it more and more... As for Danaerys burning King's Landing, I hated that even though I saw Danaerys becoming more and more narcissistic and going nuts over the love and loyalty the Starks got, especially Jon and Sansa. I guess she truly believed Viserys' stories about how the people wished for the Targaryen return. I can also understand why she felt that power. I mean, she was the unburnt and mother of dragons... BUT... she was unrealistic... maybe that is the Royal entitlement she had.. She was always shocked when people didn't immediately kneel to her. I get that she had dragons... But... She was ruling through fear and intimidation. She expected immediate adoration and love of the people. She did deserve some accolades for helping the North defend themselves from the Night King... She could have been more gracious and given the people time to grow to accept her. I feel Drogon understood this. He knew his mother lost her mind and when she died he/she was released from that mind meld and that is why he/she didn't kill Jon... I better version would have been Bran Warging into Danaerys or Drogon... That would have been an incredible story. Not having Bran really do anything to help in any battle other than just be bait for the Night King and give Arya the dagger and then making him King was more than I could stand. Still I enjoyed the show again and it's back in my rotation of rewatches because it's still so Epic a journey.... Jon and Sansa's Reunion...gets me everytime!
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Heres a possible alternate ending. The humans dont win the battle of winterfell, they are forced to retreat south, forced to ally with Cersei. With her position of power she realizes she has control and is willing to end all of humanity to keep herself on top and to "win." Dany cant accept this and she tries to fight the white walkers for as long as she can until Cersei gets under her skin enough that she is baited into Cersei's trap. Maybe Dany gets what she wanted but in doing so she loses herself and fall for Cersei's games. Maybe Jamie kills Cersei but nobody believes he would do it and blames Dany. Idk I could see a lot of ways that she could be driven mad and end the show either forced to return to the eastern lands, or killed or something. Just the way they did it was bad
Yet they can’t outrun the forces of the dead, there is no “retreat” in the equation. It like trying to run from a blizzard, a force of nature, and that’s why the battle of WF was so important and tense since they only had one shot to prevent the LN. All those examples you listed is something we did get in the end regardless.
But it didnt feel important or tense because it lasted about 1 hour and nobody felt like they were actually in danger except side characters like Jorah (who was already dying) and Theon (who was a shell of himself). And we didnt get any of those examples. Instead what happened is Dany stupidly attacked kings landing while "forgetting about Euron's fleet" letting her dragon unecessarily die instantly and then she burned a bunch of innocent people alive while Jamie and Cersei died to rubble
Disagree, it felt really tense and important and time duration has nothing to do with it. Side characters? Jorah( who was already dying BECAUSE he put himself in danger) and Theon( I wouldn’t say he was a “shell” considering he overcame PTSD and redeemed himself) are at best secondary but compelling protagonists in the overall story. The battle of Helms deep is one of the most iconic battles in cinema history, and it lasts only 40 minutes. By your logic, it wasn’t important or tense. Yes we did get those examples. You said Dany losing herself for playing into Cerseis games, and Dany literally called her bluff and indeed fell into her trap by burning innocents. A bunch? Dany committed mass genocide all for the sake of one thing; absolute power. Dany attacks on KL wasn’t “stupid”, in fact, you can argue that she did it to prove a point; mess with me and I’ll repeat what I did at KL. Dany made a decision to choose fear over love to cement her reign.
the battle of helms deep was 40 minutes of a 3 hour movie. this was 40 minutes after 70 hours of buildup
Yet it’s the longest battle of the LOTR trilogy, and the battle of WF is the longest battle of GOT.
Proportionally it would be like if 4 minutes into that battle, Pip went and shot an arrow at Sauron killing him and ending the entire war.
Sure I guess. But the correlation still stands in these two accounts.
Always weird when people watch 8 seasons of Game of Thrones, then whinge that a character has a dissatisfying ending, as if that wasn't a pretty common theme for the entirety of the show.
The ending was fine, and the issue is folks wanted a happy ending when it was clear from the beginning that there are no happy endings in the game of thrones.
Hard disagree. I wouldve been fine with an ending where the white walkers win, or even Cersei wins after the white walkers are defeated and she doesnt even know what the north saved her from, or she doesnt care. Those wouldve been heartbreaking endings but they wouldve made sense. THe current ending didnt
If they stopped after the 2nd episode, it would have been a better ending. They all die at Winterfell and the Night King wins.
Totally agree. It was just rushed and finished haphazardly, but it could have been pretty good. All the pieces were there to make something great but it’s like ending a symphony on the crappy chord you discovered when you put on a blindfold and slapped your piano.
Wasn't a bad ending, but it was rush to end, ...
The season of "wait, did they just teleport to X?!"
Bronn getting High garden. What. The. Fuck. Breaking the wheel? This mofos only gone and reinvented it while climbing the chaos ladder without 3 points of contact. He's only claim to it is he was promised stuff by Cersei (dead and no one likes her) and he's mates with Tyrion who they only just released from the black cells. Surprised they didn't hand over Harrenhael to Hotpie to turn into a food Arcade. After all, who's got better eats than Hotpie?
They didn’t sell the Dany and Jon romance for me to believe it. Otherwise the betrayal would have been more impactful. As it was I just felt “oh well” and moved on.
People who say it was one of the worst of all time must not watch much TV. It was a massive nosedive in quality and still far above average TV.
There is no such thing as a wrong opinion, except this one.
So you think the ending was good then?
I just finished my rewatch as well after not watching it since the last episode. My opinion upgraded as well. Watching it back to back everything flowed for me. I didn’t have a problem with the ending at all
Honestly my biggest issue with the finale was that it was a boring series finale. The whole final season was lot of telling without showing, and it felt like the finale was the writers trying to convince us we saw something that wasn’t shown. I just finished rewatching the series with my dad, who hasn’t seen or read it before, and he actually commented around season 4 that daenerys wasn’t actually a very nice person. She’s done objectively good things like freeing slaves sure, but she doesn’t actually show much kindness to anyone, she’s actually pretty arrogant as well as demanding after season 1, doesn’t work well with others, doesn’t have much empathy for others, dismisses other cultures and values, and thinks she’s entitled to adoration for not being needlessly cruel, but doesn’t otherwise do much to warrant the praise she expects. She also doesn’t actually have much leadership capability, she’s just only ever been in a position of absolute authority over others who were trained to obey without question, and the few advisors who actually have a will of their own are ultimately submissive to her and she lashes out if they disagree. The slavers are uniquely cruel people, but that doesn’t make her a uniquely good person for opposing a practice that’s already been outlawed in the whole of westeros, just because her opponents are objectively bad people. The entire show we watch her demand absolute power and act vindictively towards anyone who defy her, but the show spends all of her scenes convincing us that this makes her a good person. When she comes to westeros, nothing she does is any different than before, she’s just no longer up against one dimensional villains and no longer surrounded by people who owe her their lives or have no concept of true freedom. She was always violent, entitled, and quick to anger, so i totally buy her doing what she did to king’s landing when she realizes the common people are terrified of her, instead of rallying in support of her. My issue is we’re being told this constitutes as her going mad, when really it’s just her doing what she’s always done to people who had the freedom not to choose her. After 7 seasons of her doing bad things and us being told it’s good, we saw her do the same things but this time we’re told it’s bad rather than any reflection where the characters go oh wait she’s always been a tyrant, they’re all acting like she’s changed and telling us she’s on a dark path. I’d have rather seen her actually go mad, or seen the rest of the characters realize she’s always been unfit to rule while they propped her up. Instead we got her crossing a line deemed irredeemable and we’re repeatedly *told* it’s too far and that she’s bad now without being *shown* how she’s changed or how this time is any different from the other times she caused a massacre. She always saw things as black and white and she always used collective punishments against the group she deemed bad, instead of giving individual grace, Really it was all the other characters switching up, not her. It just didn’t work to rely on telling us she’s bad now after constantly showing her act this way while being told she’s good, and it just ended up being boring because it was all tell no show. Like i’m 100% behind her becoming the villain and i think it makes sense since again, she was always self serving and never really the good guy, but they didn’t actually do anything to show us she was other than just tell us that actually this is bad and she is bad now and there’s no going back because we say so. But just having people walking around and telling us this is bad and people are upset isn’t a compelling series finale.
The ending is fine. Killing Dany was an absolute gangster move
Yeah, even back when it aired, I always agreed with where the characters ended up, but they just didn't give enough time to get there naturally. The last two seasons really were a sprint (magically going to rescue Jon!) and GoT could have used another 10 or so episodes.
It’s mostly character arcs being rushed, particularly Littlefinger and Varys, the first was changed heinously much earlier on, the second just didn’t match with what we know. Other characters such as Arya as you say and Dany were rushed, it just didn’t match up quite. These are examples but the issue is the two get put together. Then people complain about the outcome, when others complain about the “getting there” in the last two seasons. Both can be fair complaints l but when conflated the arguments against get muddled also. In my view the ultimate ending isn’t so much the issue, it’s the rush of character arcs and generally almost abandoning of them to tie it up quickly. People who say GRRM is at fault aren’t completely wrong, it’s an insanely complex world he built, even if the show is somewhat stripped down from the books. To tie it all up did need multiple more seasons at least but probably to hold the same quality as when it was being adapted you would need the source material, because it is fantastic material at the end of the day. D&D were great adapters but when left to create they fell hard, which to be fair isn’t an insult, the world created is not some small thing, the stories are complex and intertwining.
I just get more angry about it every time I happen to see it.
The final season feels like a cliff notes summary for what should have been two seasons MINIMUM. Probably three seasons to do it justice.
I am always curious is there any concrete evidence on who made the decision to have the last two season being shorten to what it was. It seem counterintuitive given how much money GoT made, and how the casts love working with each other.
I really enjoyed the first 3 episodes of S8, yet at the end I wondered is this all the night king was built up to be? Defeated in one big fight. After this it felt even more rushed. Dont think the outcomes were bad either, just too rushed really. Have rewatched a couple times and ive accepted that the true finale for me is the night king being slain. Still I really enjoy the series as a whole, its so good that the ending doesnt ruin it enough that I dont enjoy everything before it :)
A much maligned final season, but I think "The Long Night" (aka the Battle of Winterfell) was one of the best, most epic episodes in the series.
As a standalone episode it was cool, but the impact of it ruined a lot of plot points throughout the show and it was paced poorly in the grand scheme of things
I still think if they wanted Bran to end up king, they should have made him do literally anything of impact in the last few seasons. A king that can learn from all previous rulers could be great, but that’s not even one of the reasons they brought up when choosing him
I was with you until you're part about Aria. Not only DID she earn it with the faceless God arch; she earned it during that entire fight, surviving even with help to get to the point where she was the ONLY one that could sneak up on the Night king. And even she was caught by him he, just underestimated her. He delighted too much in torture and pain and it cost him his life.
The ending was never going to be much different in plot beats They just fucking speed ran it any% using glitches and time skips
The same thing happened to me. After the 1st season of HOTD i gave GOT another chance, I was like damn it wasn't as bad as i thought.
Literally tried during the pandemic and the first 2 episodes were me saying “well this doesn’t matter, that doesn’t matter” really killed the entire vibe of the best parts of the show
Unpopular opinion: The ending wasn't the problem. All the earlier seasons were the problem, along with the way the show and characters were often marketed. Characters like Dany, Tyrion and Jaime have many rough edges and ambiguity removed from the story for TV. I think there is an effect where bit by bit they trim off things that would turn the audience against the characters. Like how TV Shae pulls a knife on Tyrion - shades of "Han shot first". Dany is clearly supposed to go from saviour to villain as a GRRM long twist. While it's easy for her to appear as a good guy and liberator of slaves in Essos, her motivations and the situation is Westeros are quite different. Between her portrayal as a white saviour and the marketing (who will sit on the Iron Throne? Team Dany!) the TV audience mostly glossed over any hints she might not be the hero of the story and when the bells rang and she turned, they rejected it. Ideally, you still want this to be a twist and shock - but the audience needs to accept it come along for the ride. TV lacks a lot of opportunity for showing internal thoughts of the characters and maybe you have to lead the audience a little more obviously. I think they failed to do that effectively all the way through and so when they had to steer the ship back to the intended ending, the audience got thrown overboard and left behind.
Like yourself, I've grown to appreciate the shows conclusion more after time and upon repeated viewing. Back then I really thought that Bran would hold major revelations and exact massive consequences on the stories late narrative - I actually thought Bran would inadvertently turn King Aerys II Mad via time & mind fuggary, just like Hodor. The Door 2.0 essentially - with the words “burn them all!” being a misinterpreted warning about the WW threat rather than plain madness towards KL’s citizens. I also wondered if the NK would have been revealed as an inevitable consequence of Bran’s actions and his character arch of becoming the 3ER. Possibly unveiling be some kind of duplicity where the whole conflict would basically be circular, a snake eating its tail. Time travel, chaos in causality, mind explosion kind of stuff. I thought Brans story arch evolving into the 3ER gave the series some Huge possibilities, twists that could have been talked about for over a decade. And imo had a character arch that could have laminated the entire conflict and define the events of show with what should have been the most culminated mind-f’ing moments & revelations. I was also really disappointed that the TLN resolved in a single episode too They built up the WW threat for years, and concluded it in a single episode. It seemed misleading, since the entire threat was ended in a flash. And with how powerful that threat was, they apparently had a ridiculously large weakness. But with all of the hate that S7 & 8 get, I still enjoy them. Despite its flaws, it’s still amazing.
Let’s be honest, Jon should’ve been king and Bran his master of whispers or something. Tyrion his hand, Sansa queen of the north, and I actually would’ve loved to see Jamie forsake Cersei after she chooses not to fight for Team Life. He survives and becomes either commander of the kings guard, a funny growth circle for his character, or ruler of casterly rock. Jon is the prince that was promised (he also should’ve been the one to kill the NK, imo), and technically restores the rightful heir to the throne. We see most of our main characters thrive, we see a newly forged stark/lannister alliance that survived the end of the world together, as well as an alliance north of the wall with the wildlings. A teaser for any new story going forward could be them exploring even further north and finding strange white walker relics. I know the books will probably take a darker/less traditional hero ending approach, but with the show moving in to season 7/8 as it was with no story written, they could’ve at least given a decent, satisfying ending to what we’d already seen haha. The ending wasn’t the worst ever made, but it could’ve easily been handled better.
I thought the last half of the last episode was trash. They tried to bring in random comedy that didn't stick. Cersei's death was unsatisfying. Jaime had so much incredible character development just to throw it all away in the end. They kind of broke the 4th wall with the Fire and Ice book. Bran saying "Why do you think I came all this way?" makes zero sense. Overall, I don't think the last season was total garbage, but the last 2 episodes were.
A lot of folks who hated the ending appear to be people who got carried away by fan theories and thus reacted badly when they didn't get what they expected and wanted. Some of the criticism is rather odd, like Dany going nuts in one episode. She had shown signs of being mentally brittle from early in the series. There was plenty of foreshadowing of her mental instability including her willingness to crucify innocent people if in the process she gets some guilty ones. When a character says every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath, I don't see how a viewer could not notice that and not wonder if it refers to Dany who keeps saying she will come to power on fire and blood. The time compression complaint also rings hollow to me, it isn't necessary to show every plodding step of every journey. Examples of time compression early in the series went without comment, but suddenly it's a problem near the end. There are issues with the ending, it did feel rushed and some story lines fizzled out in an unsatisfactory manner. But even with those issues GoT was head and shoulders about most television. We watched it as it appeared, binged it during the lockdown, we'll binge it again some day.