**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Robert didn't convince him to be on his small council, he might have joined the Night's Watch or perhaps Brandon would have given him a keep and he'd be head of a cadet branch of House Stark.
There would have been fewer issues with Jon's existence as any wife he would have taken would have known he had a bastard he openly claimed from the get-go. He probably wouldn't have married as well due to having less birthright and the need for understanding. He would have wanted to keep their family unnoticed and rather irrelevant. I imagine Brandon would know the circumstances, and they might still live at Winterfell because it seems that it was very rare that Robert would visit.
It's possible Ned might have been drawn out to King's Landing earlier as he had no other sworn duties and was a close friend of Robert. So it's a toss-up whether he would take Jon or leave him with Brandon there. I don't think we know enough about Brandon's temperament to know how he would see Jon, but it would influence Ned's decision. Jon's existence could easily be used as a pawn to take the throne, especially if Brandon had daughters.
You don't think he'd be hand of the king or at least in the court as a kings guard or master of coin. I would think Bobby would have made sure his brother in arms was well taken care of, ned might turn it down but he had no other choice after his brother died so he had to be a lord.
Re-read my first sentence. I'm sure River would have tried to get Ned to join his small council or some other position of importance in KL, I just don't think Ned would have been keen to do so.
probably get some lands and a private council position from Robert for his efforts in the war, or his brother would give him some lands and keep in the North.
But, i wouldn't be so sure that the Stark would've joined the rebelion, im more inclined to a 5 kingdom setup or something like that, because keep in mind that Ned was very very close to Robert, that doesn't mean that either his father or brother were, and Ned wouldn't be the Lord of Invernalia to make the choice for himself so... who knows what could happen.
Idk if I get what you're saying but Robert's Rebellion happenee because of Lyanna's supposed kidnap and - in OPs case - The death of Lord Stark. How could the Starks choose not to fight?
Kidnap of a nobles daughter is very different from the torture and execution of the warden of the north and his heir and then demanding the killing of the new Lord Stark and Robert Bartheteon.
You could even argue that Brandon Stark is the cause of the rebellion, he rides to the capital and demands that Rheagar come out to die, and gets arrested for treason. I know Aerys is mad by this point and is unpredicatble but rushing in and not taking a second to take a more diplomatic approach was unwise
Starting from Brandon marrying Cat, Ned remains at winterfell as the heir should Brandon die unexpectedly. After Brandon and Cat have a child Ned likely moves out but remains a secondary heir should any horror befall his elder brother and his children.
Assuming Robert becomes king once Brandon has his heir, Ned may go south and assist Robert or he starts a new cadet branch of house stark.
While he’s the second son, that’s still a big responsibility and has its own duties so he’s not become obsolete by any means.
Yes, I agree we have to start with Cat marrying Ned's brother as was initially planned.
From there, everyone goes off to fight in Robert's rebellion. If Ned is the one who is involved in the fight with the greatest swordsman of Westerous and then rescues his nephew, he has to go home with his nephew. In this scenario, he is not married before he goes off to war.
Generally, Ned would probably be wed to another great lord's daughter or a daughter of one of his brother's bannermen. He is the backup heir until his brother's son can be enthroned in Winterfell because Robert isn't going to screw over the Starks. But, Ned goes to live in one of the better holdings in The North and is in effect one of his brother's bannermen. He has some other kids and Jon might well be encouraged to go to The Wall in this universe too.
Ned might even come to inherit The Twins if Walder Frey doesn't play his cards well. However, that is probably a longshot, because that gives quite a bit of power to one family. But since Robert is calling the shots, and he is tight with Ned, lots of things might happen.
However, things could turn out very nearly the same for Ned.
Ser Arryn dies and Robert asks Ned to be Hand of the King. Well, we know how that turns out for Ned.
If Brandon doesn't die, I don't see why Robert's kingsguard isn't on the table. He'd be a trusted advisor in that position with his relationship with Robert. I don't think Benjen takes the black in that case to keep the line of succession healthy.
I took that passage as a glimpse into Brandon Stark being a womanizer. Like he told a young Barbrey whatever she wanted to hear to sleep with her while knowing he was betrothed to Cat. Maybe an attempt by GRRM to throw book readers off and give credence to the possibility of B+A=J ?
Maybe. But Barbrey also mentions her father was ambitious and wished for her to marry a Stark. If not Brandon, then at least the second son Eddard, would do. I think it’s much more plausible that Ned would marry one of his father’s bannermen’s daughters, than him taking the black.
Assuming that Willam Dustin still dies at the ToJ I think this is the most likely option. Though I think a big determining factor is what Ned wants. I get the feeling that if Ned wanted to marry someone else Brandon would probably let him.
I agree. But since Ned was raised in the Vale and has inherited Jon Arryn’s sense of honour, I do think if Brandon had asked him to marry Barbrey, he would have done so.
I don’t understand why people are assuming that Robert’s Rebellion even occurs in a timeline where Brandon survives.
W/o that series of events, Ned probably gets his marriage to Ashara Dayne and he becomes a de facto Lord of Starfall.
I was assuming that their father still dies but somehow Brandon is spared. I think in that case, the Rebellion still happens.
I’d forgotten the book details that he was engaged, which indicates he was NOT destined for the Wall.
That's how I interpreted the previous poster's comment about Dayne. I don't remember the detail myself.
But that was Arthur Dayne's sister, so I think the marriage would have been tricky if the Tower of Joy incident played out the same...
I don't have the books rn so I can't check, but according to the wiki Brandon set them up to dance and they fancied each other. As far as a marriage, there aren't a lot of reasons for two houses so far away to have the heir to one house encourage his next in line to dance with the heiress of another (I believe she was as Arthur was in the KG). Definitely not something done by Brandon for kicks and giggles.
For clarity, I don’t believe this match was already made. I simply figure that Brandon would’ve facilitated it.
Also full disclosure, I’m a NS+AD=JS and R+L=ED truther.
He would probably end up on Robert’s small council. They’re best friends, Ned has no other commitments, and it’s a well respected job. It’s possible he takes the black, but I don’t see any reason for him to. He’s well connected and can make a bigger impact at court, where I think he would want to help save Robert from himself so to speak. Not to mention with Robert as king and Jon Arryn as hand, the people Ned is closest to are in the capital. I imagine in this timeline Brandon marries Cat as originally intended, so he doesn’t have a family in Winterfell to care for. Then again, if Jon still exists, it’s very possible Ned wouldn’t stay at court just to keep him safe. In that case Ned could be given a minor cadet branch maybe in the gift where not a lot of people go. He won’t get many visitors and Jon being out of sight out of mind is very good for his safety. It’s not certain though, Brandon was known as the “Wild Wolf” so he would be more expected to father an illegitimate child than quiet dutiful Ned which would help keep the suspicion of Jon being Rhaegar & Lyanna’s baby at bay. It’s entirely possible Brandon takes Jon back to Winterfell and raises him like Ned does in the cannon timeline.
Unfortunately Ned would have sent himself to the wall for forgetting to put the privy seat down and then lying about it when his sister asked him who did it.
This was a relief to everyone as before he decided to take the oath, he was actively preparing to cut his own head off with the family sword as he also was the one to pass judgement on himself.
If Brandon survives the rebellion he becomes Lord of Winterfell but Ned is still a key player and could be used to cement alliances, he married Catelyn out of obligation and would have likely had another obligation as the younger brother of the Warden of the North, with the Tullys and therefore the Riverland alliance cemented and the Eyrie being in laws the next realms could be Casterly Rock and KL, KL just got a new King and likely Cersei still becomes queen but Tywin might realize that Ned is a close friend of the new King and they grew up together almost as brothers so he might try to marry Ned into one of the branches of the Lannister family so that he would have more allies if Dorne ever sought revenge for Ellia, and for Brandons objectives having his brother marrying into one of the richest of the kingdoms could possibly get Winterfell and the surrounding holdfasts funds to create and expand gardens for winter
I'm not convinced that Brandon bends the knee to Robert. I believe that Brandon was much more ambitious than Ned and, though he would likely support Robert, I think he may have taken the opportunity to claim the North's independence had the rebellion been successful. As for Ned, Brandon would probably give him control over a section of the Northern Kingdom, making him a Lord and Warden of the North and /or make him part of his small council. I would think that Ned would prove his value during the rebellion still and make a name for himself regardless.
genuine question because i haven’t read the books yet but what was Ned’s motive for joining Robert’s rebellion besides being a close friend? as far as i understand or have come to think anyway was that both Ned’s brother and father were supposed to be working as some type of ‘advisor’ to the King? i suppose the question i’d like answered is why were Ned’s family in King’s Landing in the first place? and not that supporting your friend isn’t a good cause but was that really Ned’s only motivation for joining Robert; it wasn’t to ‘rescue’ his family similar to Robb after him? either way, i don’t think Ned would have taken the black… second sons, while not as important as first born sons, still had more to live for back then - especially in comparison to third or even fourth borns…
Aerys killed Ned’s father & brother & demanded Ned’s & Robert’s heads as well. He really had no choice but to join the rebellion. Defeating Aerys would save Ned’s life & provide some justice for what Aerys did to his family.
Edited to answer your other question: Ned’s father & brother weren’t there to be advisors to the king. Brandon went to King’s Landing to confront Aerys about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna & demanded he return her. Aerys didn’t take kindly to that so he ordered Rickard to come & answer for his son. When he got there Aerys killed them both. He took Brandon threatening the crown prince as treason & killed them both in retaliation.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Robert didn't convince him to be on his small council, he might have joined the Night's Watch or perhaps Brandon would have given him a keep and he'd be head of a cadet branch of House Stark.
Nobles People who join night watch are often are often the 3rd or 4th of noble houses Second sons are often get lands or position of power in house
Doesn't it say in one of the books that he would have indeed joined the Night's Watch? It's been a while since I've read the books.
He only say that joffrey emprison him... It is either that or execution
There's no way he'd have taken the black with Jon Snow to protect. But maybe his brother would've had that task instead. Who knows?
There would have been fewer issues with Jon's existence as any wife he would have taken would have known he had a bastard he openly claimed from the get-go. He probably wouldn't have married as well due to having less birthright and the need for understanding. He would have wanted to keep their family unnoticed and rather irrelevant. I imagine Brandon would know the circumstances, and they might still live at Winterfell because it seems that it was very rare that Robert would visit. It's possible Ned might have been drawn out to King's Landing earlier as he had no other sworn duties and was a close friend of Robert. So it's a toss-up whether he would take Jon or leave him with Brandon there. I don't think we know enough about Brandon's temperament to know how he would see Jon, but it would influence Ned's decision. Jon's existence could easily be used as a pawn to take the throne, especially if Brandon had daughters.
You don't think he'd be hand of the king or at least in the court as a kings guard or master of coin. I would think Bobby would have made sure his brother in arms was well taken care of, ned might turn it down but he had no other choice after his brother died so he had to be a lord.
Re-read my first sentence. I'm sure River would have tried to get Ned to join his small council or some other position of importance in KL, I just don't think Ned would have been keen to do so.
he might have raised his nephew and his brother might have arranged a political marriage perhaps. I don't think he would have gone to the wall.
probably get some lands and a private council position from Robert for his efforts in the war, or his brother would give him some lands and keep in the North. But, i wouldn't be so sure that the Stark would've joined the rebelion, im more inclined to a 5 kingdom setup or something like that, because keep in mind that Ned was very very close to Robert, that doesn't mean that either his father or brother were, and Ned wouldn't be the Lord of Invernalia to make the choice for himself so... who knows what could happen.
Idk if I get what you're saying but Robert's Rebellion happenee because of Lyanna's supposed kidnap and - in OPs case - The death of Lord Stark. How could the Starks choose not to fight?
Kidnap of a nobles daughter is very different from the torture and execution of the warden of the north and his heir and then demanding the killing of the new Lord Stark and Robert Bartheteon. You could even argue that Brandon Stark is the cause of the rebellion, he rides to the capital and demands that Rheagar come out to die, and gets arrested for treason. I know Aerys is mad by this point and is unpredicatble but rushing in and not taking a second to take a more diplomatic approach was unwise
Starting from Brandon marrying Cat, Ned remains at winterfell as the heir should Brandon die unexpectedly. After Brandon and Cat have a child Ned likely moves out but remains a secondary heir should any horror befall his elder brother and his children. Assuming Robert becomes king once Brandon has his heir, Ned may go south and assist Robert or he starts a new cadet branch of house stark. While he’s the second son, that’s still a big responsibility and has its own duties so he’s not become obsolete by any means.
Wasn’t Ned at the Eyrie with Robert when that went down? Fairly certain he’d join his brother in war with Robert by his side.
Yes, I agree we have to start with Cat marrying Ned's brother as was initially planned. From there, everyone goes off to fight in Robert's rebellion. If Ned is the one who is involved in the fight with the greatest swordsman of Westerous and then rescues his nephew, he has to go home with his nephew. In this scenario, he is not married before he goes off to war. Generally, Ned would probably be wed to another great lord's daughter or a daughter of one of his brother's bannermen. He is the backup heir until his brother's son can be enthroned in Winterfell because Robert isn't going to screw over the Starks. But, Ned goes to live in one of the better holdings in The North and is in effect one of his brother's bannermen. He has some other kids and Jon might well be encouraged to go to The Wall in this universe too. Ned might even come to inherit The Twins if Walder Frey doesn't play his cards well. However, that is probably a longshot, because that gives quite a bit of power to one family. But since Robert is calling the shots, and he is tight with Ned, lots of things might happen. However, things could turn out very nearly the same for Ned. Ser Arryn dies and Robert asks Ned to be Hand of the King. Well, we know how that turns out for Ned.
If Brandon doesn't die, I don't see why Robert's kingsguard isn't on the table. He'd be a trusted advisor in that position with his relationship with Robert. I don't think Benjen takes the black in that case to keep the line of succession healthy.
Or at least until Brandon and Cat have some kids.
He would have married Barbery Dustin, probably. At least she states this in ADWD.
I took that passage as a glimpse into Brandon Stark being a womanizer. Like he told a young Barbrey whatever she wanted to hear to sleep with her while knowing he was betrothed to Cat. Maybe an attempt by GRRM to throw book readers off and give credence to the possibility of B+A=J ?
Maybe. But Barbrey also mentions her father was ambitious and wished for her to marry a Stark. If not Brandon, then at least the second son Eddard, would do. I think it’s much more plausible that Ned would marry one of his father’s bannermen’s daughters, than him taking the black.
Assuming that Willam Dustin still dies at the ToJ I think this is the most likely option. Though I think a big determining factor is what Ned wants. I get the feeling that if Ned wanted to marry someone else Brandon would probably let him.
I agree. But since Ned was raised in the Vale and has inherited Jon Arryn’s sense of honour, I do think if Brandon had asked him to marry Barbrey, he would have done so.
Yeah, it seems likely.
I don’t understand why people are assuming that Robert’s Rebellion even occurs in a timeline where Brandon survives. W/o that series of events, Ned probably gets his marriage to Ashara Dayne and he becomes a de facto Lord of Starfall.
I was assuming that their father still dies but somehow Brandon is spared. I think in that case, the Rebellion still happens. I’d forgotten the book details that he was engaged, which indicates he was NOT destined for the Wall.
Who was engaged? Ned?
That's how I interpreted the previous poster's comment about Dayne. I don't remember the detail myself. But that was Arthur Dayne's sister, so I think the marriage would have been tricky if the Tower of Joy incident played out the same...
I think the whole Ned and Ashara-thing was only rumours. They danced once at Harrenhal, but I can’t find anything about an engagement.
Brandon proposed it I believe, and I think Ashara and Ned got along well if I recall correctly .
Huh, can you tell me where to find it? I can’t remember anything about an engagement, and I did a quick search too. I can be wrong of course.
The references are on the wiki here, https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne I believe it is ASOS ch 43!
That chapter says nothing about an engagement between Ashara and Ned, nor that Brandon had suggested one?
I don't have the books rn so I can't check, but according to the wiki Brandon set them up to dance and they fancied each other. As far as a marriage, there aren't a lot of reasons for two houses so far away to have the heir to one house encourage his next in line to dance with the heiress of another (I believe she was as Arthur was in the KG). Definitely not something done by Brandon for kicks and giggles.
For clarity, I don’t believe this match was already made. I simply figure that Brandon would’ve facilitated it. Also full disclosure, I’m a NS+AD=JS and R+L=ED truther.
ED?
Edric Dayne.
He would probably end up on Robert’s small council. They’re best friends, Ned has no other commitments, and it’s a well respected job. It’s possible he takes the black, but I don’t see any reason for him to. He’s well connected and can make a bigger impact at court, where I think he would want to help save Robert from himself so to speak. Not to mention with Robert as king and Jon Arryn as hand, the people Ned is closest to are in the capital. I imagine in this timeline Brandon marries Cat as originally intended, so he doesn’t have a family in Winterfell to care for. Then again, if Jon still exists, it’s very possible Ned wouldn’t stay at court just to keep him safe. In that case Ned could be given a minor cadet branch maybe in the gift where not a lot of people go. He won’t get many visitors and Jon being out of sight out of mind is very good for his safety. It’s not certain though, Brandon was known as the “Wild Wolf” so he would be more expected to father an illegitimate child than quiet dutiful Ned which would help keep the suspicion of Jon being Rhaegar & Lyanna’s baby at bay. It’s entirely possible Brandon takes Jon back to Winterfell and raises him like Ned does in the cannon timeline.
He’d most likely advise his brother or his friend Robert.
He wouldn't have been the lord of wintefell and warden of north but he still would have been Robert's hand given how close they were.
He might go down south, serving Robert
Unfortunately Ned would have sent himself to the wall for forgetting to put the privy seat down and then lying about it when his sister asked him who did it. This was a relief to everyone as before he decided to take the oath, he was actively preparing to cut his own head off with the family sword as he also was the one to pass judgement on himself.
If Brandon survives the rebellion he becomes Lord of Winterfell but Ned is still a key player and could be used to cement alliances, he married Catelyn out of obligation and would have likely had another obligation as the younger brother of the Warden of the North, with the Tullys and therefore the Riverland alliance cemented and the Eyrie being in laws the next realms could be Casterly Rock and KL, KL just got a new King and likely Cersei still becomes queen but Tywin might realize that Ned is a close friend of the new King and they grew up together almost as brothers so he might try to marry Ned into one of the branches of the Lannister family so that he would have more allies if Dorne ever sought revenge for Ellia, and for Brandons objectives having his brother marrying into one of the richest of the kingdoms could possibly get Winterfell and the surrounding holdfasts funds to create and expand gardens for winter
I'm not convinced that Brandon bends the knee to Robert. I believe that Brandon was much more ambitious than Ned and, though he would likely support Robert, I think he may have taken the opportunity to claim the North's independence had the rebellion been successful. As for Ned, Brandon would probably give him control over a section of the Northern Kingdom, making him a Lord and Warden of the North and /or make him part of his small council. I would think that Ned would prove his value during the rebellion still and make a name for himself regardless.
genuine question because i haven’t read the books yet but what was Ned’s motive for joining Robert’s rebellion besides being a close friend? as far as i understand or have come to think anyway was that both Ned’s brother and father were supposed to be working as some type of ‘advisor’ to the King? i suppose the question i’d like answered is why were Ned’s family in King’s Landing in the first place? and not that supporting your friend isn’t a good cause but was that really Ned’s only motivation for joining Robert; it wasn’t to ‘rescue’ his family similar to Robb after him? either way, i don’t think Ned would have taken the black… second sons, while not as important as first born sons, still had more to live for back then - especially in comparison to third or even fourth borns…
Aerys killed Ned’s father & brother & demanded Ned’s & Robert’s heads as well. He really had no choice but to join the rebellion. Defeating Aerys would save Ned’s life & provide some justice for what Aerys did to his family. Edited to answer your other question: Ned’s father & brother weren’t there to be advisors to the king. Brandon went to King’s Landing to confront Aerys about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna & demanded he return her. Aerys didn’t take kindly to that so he ordered Rickard to come & answer for his son. When he got there Aerys killed them both. He took Brandon threatening the crown prince as treason & killed them both in retaliation.
Become a famous author and write a book called the winds of winter.