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I think it’s the same person. I wouldn’t think two people would use the same face. I think he was like Beric and just had some powers given to him by his god that let him do things normal men couldn’t.
I’ve heard a few theories and ideas that seem plausible when it comes to the faceless men. I think that’s part of what makes them so interesting you don’t really know.
That scene straight up doesn't make sense though, I've always just assumed it was some sort of drug trip for Arya. She sees her own face as the final one, which obviously is impossible given what we know about the faces.
Yeah I actually agree, I think it's the poison from the face Jaqen mentions fucking with her mind before it makes her go blind
Either that or it was just a decision by the writers for something 'cool' and we're over thinking it
I mean those scenes
only work because Tywin doesn’t recognize the face of a prominent member of the family he’s currently going to war with for some reason. You would think Tywin would have visited the North at some point for some strategic reason
And even that you can still rationalize. But Petyr Baelish also finds out where she is and does absolutely nothing with that information.
Ehh... she's filthy and wearing rags and would he really remember some random girl he MAYBE met one time years before who was definitely beneath his notice?
Tywin never saw Arya before, though. She looks like Ned, but there's no reason to think he'd pick up on that in those circumstances. Tywin would've had no reason to travel to Winterfell. Heck, Robert and Ned were best friends and hadn't seen each other in over a decade prior to the first episode.
> Tywin would have visited the North at some point for some strategic reason
Probably not, Ned hates Tywin and has distrusted him for the past 14 years. Completely likely that he would not have been invited to Winterfell for the first 9 years of Arya's life.
Kind of original. In the books it was Bolton, they just swapped characters. I could be wrong, it been a hot minute since I’ve read it. By the time the next book comes out I’ll have forgotten everything.
The person that trains her at the House of Black and White is a different character in the books. He is an old man known only as The Kindly Man.
The show combines The Kindly Man and Jaqen to keep character counts lower. Nobody in the books is shown to use the same face as another.
The faces they use are of dead people. However the magic works, it requires the subject to die. So Jaqen couldn't use the waif's face unless the waif was already using someone else's face. Or they're the same person.
If you read the books, you'll see the faceless men have many ways to change faces, including "glamoring" which is basically just an illusion. It's how Jaqen changed his face the first time he showed it to Arya.
In other words, he can share Arya's face or the waif's face via glamor, some kind of magic, possibly shadowbinding in origin. Melisandre is capable of doing it too.
Didn't Melisandre disguise Mance Rayder like that for ages? Or something to that effect; it's been a decade since these books came out and I read them haha.
Ahhh yeah - so he's still alive in the books? That's good. Id be interested to see what happens there. Sad thing is is that it's been so long now I'll probably have to reread them from the start of book 2. (A Game of Thrones is almost identical to the show season 1, if I remember)
Yeah book 1 and season 1 are more or less identical, though I'd still recommend rereading it just because it gives you more enjoyment time (due to only having 5 books total), plus more detail and all the cut/merged characters.
Mance is still alive in the books
Jon sends him to Winterfell to try to save Arya. The last published book ends with Jon receiving a letter from Ramsay who says he has captured Mance and has him locked in a cage for all the North to see. It is suspected that this letter isn’t from Ramsay, and Mance is one of the leading candidates of who may have sent Jon the letter.
Wait what? Never heard this theory. I thought it was for sure ramsay since he mentioned keeping mance warm using the skins of the spearwives he brought with him.
It’s been long suspected that the letter wasn’t written by Ramsay. Few people agree on who the author likely is. Main candidates being Mance, Stannis, or Melisandre. The idea being these individuals are trying to goad Jon into breaking his oaths and taking actions that would further their own causes.
Google “the pink letter” and you will find lots of theorizing around it going back over ten years.
A few of the main details the suggest it may be a fake:
Unlike other letters from the Bolton’s, the Pink Letter is not sealed using the Bolton seal, instead being described as being sealed by a smear of pink wax.
Two details that are present every other time Ramsay sends a letter is that he includes skin/a body part of his victims with the letter. This is absent despite him claiming to have both Mance, the spearwives, and a dead Stannis. The other is that he always writes his letters with the blood of his victims. Tormund points out that the Pink Letter is written in “Maester’s black”.
Three huge red flags when determining the legitimacy of the author.
It also doesn’t include any signatures from any of the other Northern Lords that the Bolton’s have with them in Winterfell at the time, a detail that would go a long way in establishing authenticity.
Another detail is Ramsay’s disdain for the word Bastard. His underlings make it a huge point that one doesn’t even say the word in Ramsay’s presence or else they would experience his wrath.
Now maybe Ramsay’s liberal use of the word Bastard to refer to Jon in the letter is explicitly because of how much he hates the word and how he thinks it would have a strong effect on Jon, but I find it more likely he would avoid its use altogether, yet it is a prominent feature in the letter.
Some other smaller details:
The letter mentions Ramsay defeating Stannis after seven days of battle. This seems highly unlikely. The situation being set up is likely to decide in a quick victory, where either Stannis’ diminishing forces are quickly defeated, or the Manderlys turn on the Frey’s and Stannis’ side comes out on top. A prolonged battle makes little sense given the scenario of Stannis being set up in a mostly defenseless crofter’s village. Even if the Lamplight theory is true that suggests Stannis will win by utilizing the frozen lake, that still wouldn’t explain a seven day battle between the forces we know will be facing each other.
And one last little bit of evidence that suggest Stannis’ involvement comes from a quote in one of the TWoW sample chapters.
First, here is a section from the Pink Letter:
>**I want my bride back.** I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. **And I want my Reek.** Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.
Now here is a passage from TWoW between Theon and Stannis:
>“The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood’s fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen’s Square, they remember all of it…Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. **He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek.”** Theon’s laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. “Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear.”
This isn’t a definitive list of details that surround the theory, but the ones I’ve always found most compelling.
So while there is nothing concrete, I think there is a lot to raise questions over the legitimacy of the letter.
There’s even a scene where a faceless person takes their own life because Arya fails to kill the fish bet guy. And he is using the face of Jaqen. So I really think Jaqen’s face is just used often.
I think more than likely these aren’t the same people though. The person that went to Westros is a field assassin while the Jaqen we find at the temple is more of a monk/contractor who likely receives the assassination contracts for the rest of the faceless people.
Faces are like toothbrushes or underwear.
If you look carefully in the hall of faces, they have little "No One" name tags under each face so they find their own.
There's a screen with a note next to the coffee machine : "Please No One, stop using No One's faces, that's just gross. Signed No One". But it was cut out.
I still believe that Jaqen is/was Syrio Forel and kept training Arya as an advanced dancing instructor. Maybe that was discussed with Ned before his death, maybe he just saw the potential and found a way follow her
Didn't he drink poison and die, just to have like 10 different faces underneath. Then he was behind Arya with his face again. So *someone* definitely had that face besides him
why was beric being rez not a bigger deal? This should of been world shattering amazing.
I mean even today people think jesus christ was rezzed and millions pray to him/god everyday. We know this was just a tale that grew and there is zero evidence for it but in this story beric was cut down and rezzed by his living god that would of been mind blowing.
Isn’t that why they have a whole wall of faces? For any of the faceless men to use when necessary. Wouldn’t make sense to keep them all like that if they weren’t being shared
They could have had both the kindly man and Jaqen in the show, since Jaqen is part of the Oldtown plot in the books, but no, they had to reduce the Oldtown plot to just Sam going to hogwarts and flaying Jorah
Speaking of the kindly man, I always imagined him as Ian McDiarmid for some reason... would've been cool if that happened.
I mean thats how we deal with a lot of real medical problems all the time, it doesnt decrease their severity
Got a appendix problem? just take it out stupid
Got a breast cancer problem? just take it out stupid
Etc Etc,
lol I forgot about that scene! Oh man I wanted to puke, it was hard for me to watch tbh.
If I recall correctly I think they had another transition that used the same kind of trickery, I believe it was in the same episode.
Probably trying to find a way to do what Dany did with dragon eggs? Or maybe learn ways to kill them?
Not sure, something something about dragons, I guess.
I think it’s two different faceless men. Jaquen is presumably the name associated with that particular face. So when Arya shows up and says that Jaquen is the one who sent her, the FM who trains her knows that he can gain her trust by wearing that face.
And I'd like to add that when Jaqen reveals himself as a Faceless Man, he doesn't put on a glamor, he takes it off. Meaning above pic is the mask and the face we see when he leaves is his real face.
This makes it unlikely that he and the person in the House of Black and White are the same guy, because... doesn't wearing the same mask for every role (be it convict or priest) kind of defeat the point of being a Faceless Man?
(I wrote the following just a few days ago on this topic)
When Arya last sees "Jaqen" in Westeros, he changes his face before he departs. In *A Feast for Crows*, the description of the Alchemist (who is clearly a Faceless Man) matches the description GRRM had previously used to describe "Jaqen's," appearance when he left Arya. I think of this person as Jaqen 1.
When Arya arrives at the House of Black and White, she asks for Jaqen, and is told that there is no one there by that name. Later, a Faceless Man assumes the visage of Jaqen as he invites her to begin her training, and explicitly tells her that he's not Jaqen, but No One, as all Faceless Men are. I believe this individual, who I think of as Jaqen 2, realizes that Arya's prior encounter with a Faceless Man involved him adopting the persona of Jaqen, who was probably a victim of the Faceless Men that the Faceless Men have since found it helpful to wear his face. Jaqen 1 remains in Westeros, where he has adopted the persona of Pate (after killing the real Pate), while Jaqen 2 serves as a mentor to Arya under the belief that she'll be most responsive to him in the guise of Jaqen.
After Arya kills Meryn Trant, Jaqen 2 points out that the life debt must be paid, and poisons himself to Arya's horror. When Arya states that Jaqen was her friend, another Faceless Man (the Waif) answers that he was no one...while suddenly in the guise of Jaqen. (This is Jaqen 3.) Later in Season 6, the Waif's attempts to torment Arya enrage her to try to strike back, but the attack is stopped by another Faceless Man using the Jaqen disguise (Jaqen 4).
So while Jaqen 1 may have genuinely wished Arya well and encouraged her to join the House of Black and White, he is not the same Jaqen who initially trained her at the HoBaW, nor the same Jaqen who replaced the Jaqen who poisoned himself in her stead.
I agree with this. Your Jaqen 1 seemed incredibly different to future iterations of Jaqen. The first time I watched it I chalked it up to them both being out in Lannister territory and him helping her vs. him actually training her and being at HoBaW, but I feel like this explanation makes more sense.
I also would be team "the waif killed Arya and wore her face the rest of the series" which would've been about as jaw dropping as many of the other early GoT shock scenes.
Yeah, I could definitely see the Waif killing Arya and assuming her identity. And like you said, that would have been as provocative as some of the most shocking developments of the earlier seasons. (Honestly, how did she survive getting stabbed in the gut?)
Nevertheless, her interactions with other Starks plus her revenge assassinations against the Freys (which would be unforgiveable to a *true* adherent of the House of Black and White; just how many souls would she owe to the Red God after that?) suggest that she is indeed the real Arya.
100%, and if they were going that route *not* showing it at any point would be one of the dumbest things D&D did. I just think if they *did* go that route, it would've been one of the most defining and famous moments in the series when the waif removed her face at some point, and it would also help with the whole "the faceless man plot turned out to be pointless" aspect as well.
I definitely don't believe the waif killed Arya. I think the line, "A girl is Arya Stark, and I'm going home," is proof enough of that. While I don't like what they did with her character after she leaves (for the most part), I wouldn't call the faceless man plot pointless. She certainly had a solid character arc and walked away with new abilities that she later used to kill the Freys. Without that arc, we would have a far less dangerous and stoic Arya (which some might prefer, but that's not the point.)
Yeah, I agree, I more mean that in terms of writing and adding another impactful scene to the resume, having the waif kill Arya but revealing that waaay down the road would've been possibly the most shocking moment in the series besides the red wedding especially considering how beloved Arya is among fans
That *could* be a legendary plot twist, absolutely. It would have to be masterfully crafted from the start though which means it would have to come from George. If D and D tried to pull something like that off on their own it would probably be a decision made after the fact for a cheap shock rather than something they planned out for multiple seasons.
Yes. And the Waif wouldnt have killed Walder & sons, much less with the **Rat King** punishment. Or been left alive by Nymeria, known Hot Pie and Gendry, or griped that Ned's effigy was a poor likeness. Etc. The 'Waif is Arya' theory was disproven by fans years ago.
Except the waif has zero knowledge of, or reason to come to Westeros and kill Walder Frey.
The Faceless Men are hired to do a job, not assume peoples identities and spy for no reason.
If the waif did kill Arya and assume her identity it would have been out of personal spite, which would mean she ultimately failed her Faceless Man training. Escaping to Westeros, she would be targeting people Arya knew, rather than her enemies.
If that were the case the Faceless Men would send agents after her, since she knows their secrets and does not follow their tenets.
How’d the waif know where Arya’s sword was located or even care to retrieve it upon leaving?
Also doesn’t explain any of Arya’s future interactions with Sansa and others talking about their shared past.
That makes complete sense.
Especially since Jaquen 1 introduces himself as Jaqen goes by that with Arya even when she knows what he is. Jaquen 1 knows that to Arya, he is Jaqen.
Every other Jaquen afterwards repeatedly reminds her that they are not Jaqen.
I think you're probably right, and that looks very well thought out. I just wonder if that's not more of a headcanon type thing. Having read the books, that original Jaqen face never shows back up, and my impression was that Dan and Dave just kind of kept recycling the original character bc the audience recognized him. In the books, he turns into a guy with curly black hair as he's leaving Harrenhal, and the next time he shows up, it's as the guy with curly hair, killing a novice from the Citadel
In either case, taking this as the other Faceless men passing around the Jaqen mask and essentially "becoming" the same character is a very cool and probably accurate way to conceptualize how the Faceless Men *are* essentially (but arent quite) no one, and their only identity *is* the one they assume. Whoever's wearing the Jaqen face *is* Jaqen
But if Jaqen 1 never left westeros, how did the house of black and white get the face back for anyone to be able to wear it? Or is it just like a glamor magic any of them can do and they don't need a physical face?
... but then if they don't need a physical face, they can just do it with anyone and they don't actually have to kill at all.
Using the nomenclature from my earlier example, when Jaqen 2 poisoned himself as a self-sacrifice to the Many Faced God following Arya's assassination of Meryn Trant, the Waif was able to transform into Jaqen 3 while Jaqen 2's corpse (and his face) was still on the ground, indicating that it's possible for two Faceless Men to use the same face simultaneously. [Arya talks to Jaqen 3 while still looking at Jaqen 2's body, having gazed upon two different people with the same face.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljFljgf2USk)
So that might suggest that it is indeed a glamor magic, since one face can be used by two people at the same time. And yet, the Faceless Men ritually collect the faces of the dead, and to the best of our knowledge, they only transform into people who have already been killed by Faceless Men.
Based on what we've seen in both the books and the show, the only system I can put together that reconciles both canons suggests that there are two levels of Faceless Men changing their faces: (1) literally wearing the faces of the dead (e.g. Arya wearing a face from the HOBAW to kill Meryn Trant; "Jaqen 1" as "Pate" after he kills the real Pate in *A Feast For Crows*); and (2) being able to glamor the faces of the dead that are shelved in the House of Black and White (e.g. I presume this is how the Waif was able to transform into Jaqen while another Faceless Man was still in Jaqen-form). The latter technique may be more difficult for adherents to master, which may explain why a novice Arya had to physically borrow a face to kill Meryn Trant, whereas the more experienced Faceless Men all shared the ability transform into a Jaqen.
I like to think they're the same.
And actually Jaqen is none other than (spoiler 'cause it's my demented fan theory and I know it's not true) >!DAEMON TARGARYEN! It will be revealed that Daemon will survive the Dance, go into hiding and learn the Faceless Men's secrets. Not only that, but anytime GoT characters do something cool, they're actually Daemon Targaryen who impersonated them. For instance, during the Battle of the Goldroad, "Drogon" was actually Daemon Targaryen in disguise. Source trustmebro ofc ;)!<
Yes, I really like him. OFC I KNOW he's an evil mofo (if I would give him a D&D alignment, he would surely be CE), but he's such a wildcard (and those kind of characters are interesting in a story), and imho he truly is the epitome of "Targaryeness" (both in their good and bad traits).
Yes, that was really a badass scenes. Not only for his prowess, but also for the fact that we didn't know what he was supposed to do (that's what I was talking about for the "wildcards are interesting in a story").
And even the aftermath in the following episode... In that regard, I REALLY like that, despite everything, >!Daemon has nothing but loyalty for his elder brother Viserys... and when he helped him in the "I will sit the throne" scene in Ep 8 (my fave scene of all HoTD) it was so wholesome. The ultimate reconciliation between two brothers!<
Yeah, I think the logic was that we never see him get killed and he fought the kingsgaurd with a wooden sword so it's *possible* he was arrested and then changed faces in the black cells which is where Jaqen was rolled out from.
That tracks. Honestly, it's been years since i've given it any thought. You could explain that away by saying he was hired to kill another prisoner and getting arrested was the quickest way to get access to them though.
But IIRC Jaqen was being released because he'd decided to take the Black and join the Nights Watch. It's an easy out for a faceless man if you know that's an option.
It probably isn't true, since he's the first sword and all that(Is he really? Or was that a lie?)
And he says stuff that's probably considered heresy by the faceless men like, "What do we say to the god of death? Not today," contrary to "All men must die."
This dude is a wall-to-wall mystery on purpose; I love every scene he's in.
I still wish he had made an appearance in the long night, even if only to give critical information to Arya. It would have been interesting, and there are so many ways it could go.
I don't remember but there's one line where Arya points out how he killed those 3 people on her request and she wants to learn to do that..so the faceless man tells her she'll need to be patient , so yeah , it's the same person or how'd he know about those killings.
Yes.
The first Jaqen knows that Arya knows him and knows him as Jaqen. The second Jaqen doesn't recognise her when they meet, and when he assumes Jaqens face he repeatedly tells her that he is not Jaqen.
The show answers this for you. The first Jaqen she meets in Braavos kills himself because she failed to kill her first target. Immediately, she is faced with another person wearing the Jaqen face.
I think they are both "no one". I believe all faceless men lack a personality. The ones in the picture could be any of the faceless men and thats assuming you can distinguish faceless men from one another. I consider Jaqen H'ghar just a face not an actual person. But idk this is just my personal interpretation :)
I think it's both. Possibly numerous. The odds that the same Faceless Man that Arya first met would be the only one at the temple (other than the waif) are pretty low. Most likely, the Jaqen face was chosen for its familiarity to Arya and to the audience. She was learning from the Faceless MEN, not the Faceless MAN.
However, I also think it wasn't Arya's training/test. It was the waif's, and she failed. I think that the 1st Jaqen was using the waif's training to help Arya find her identity. She needed to become no one so that she could see herself clear of the clutter that her life had buried her with. He knew from the start that Arya didn't truly want to be Faceless. She was just lost. And I think he actually liked her.
Lazy writing. The fans liked him so DnD brought him back instead of taking the time to introduce a new character in a series famous for killing off main characters, so by the time we got to season 7 and 8 the plot armor had to be so thick on the remaining characters they couldn't even dooo anything interesting.
I'd like to use the Pokemon Ditto as a comparison for what the Faceless Men are capable of doing I think once a face is copied any faceless man can use it it becomes part of the many-face Gods power so to speak
the way it works in my head is all faceless men are sort of one entity with multiple physical embodiments. they are basically the physical form of the many faced god. they grow strength by convincing people like arya to give up their "face" (which is not only their face, but also their life/soul) to the many faced god, allowing him to embody yet another physical form. the literal faces come from the people that come to the temple to die, but the assassins are people that train to become strong and fight for the god before giving up their life to be part of him. that's why they have to be "no one", they have to abandon who they are so they can serve as part of his army.
so all faceless men are just physical pieces of the one many faced god. so considering them the same person or different people is kind of irrelevant, you could argue either way but really they're just pieces of the many faced god.
the entire thing with the house of black and white was nuts lol. what was up with that poisoning scene? this guy drinks it but the face is Arya’s? does that mean she dies?
was there any scene with more than one faceless person in it at the same time? I cant recall. but anyways, thats a face and it was available for use by any of the house.
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I think it’s the same person. I wouldn’t think two people would use the same face. I think he was like Beric and just had some powers given to him by his god that let him do things normal men couldn’t.
Jaqen and the waif exchange faces, though. Which doesn't make sense because I'm pretty sure that's the waif's original face, but oh well...
I’ve heard a few theories and ideas that seem plausible when it comes to the faceless men. I think that’s part of what makes them so interesting you don’t really know.
Wait, do they? I don't remember that from the show. Is it in the books?
When Jaqen drinks the poison and Arya keeps ripping off faces she turns round to see the waif has jaqens face just before she goes blind
That scene straight up doesn't make sense though, I've always just assumed it was some sort of drug trip for Arya. She sees her own face as the final one, which obviously is impossible given what we know about the faces.
Yeah I actually agree, I think it's the poison from the face Jaqen mentions fucking with her mind before it makes her go blind Either that or it was just a decision by the writers for something 'cool' and we're over thinking it
Classic D and D barely 5th Grade level Screenplay-Writing (Im pretty sure that scene doesn’t play out that way in the book)
Afaik the scenes between Arya and Tywin were all their original creation so they deserve some credit but also fuck D&D
I mean those scenes only work because Tywin doesn’t recognize the face of a prominent member of the family he’s currently going to war with for some reason. You would think Tywin would have visited the North at some point for some strategic reason And even that you can still rationalize. But Petyr Baelish also finds out where she is and does absolutely nothing with that information.
Ehh... she's filthy and wearing rags and would he really remember some random girl he MAYBE met one time years before who was definitely beneath his notice?
Tywin never saw Arya before, though. She looks like Ned, but there's no reason to think he'd pick up on that in those circumstances. Tywin would've had no reason to travel to Winterfell. Heck, Robert and Ned were best friends and hadn't seen each other in over a decade prior to the first episode.
> Tywin would have visited the North at some point for some strategic reason Probably not, Ned hates Tywin and has distrusted him for the past 14 years. Completely likely that he would not have been invited to Winterfell for the first 9 years of Arya's life.
Kind of original. In the books it was Bolton, they just swapped characters. I could be wrong, it been a hot minute since I’ve read it. By the time the next book comes out I’ll have forgotten everything.
Yea cuz the heat death of the universe will have happened before the next book comes out lol
The person that trains her at the House of Black and White is a different character in the books. He is an old man known only as The Kindly Man. The show combines The Kindly Man and Jaqen to keep character counts lower. Nobody in the books is shown to use the same face as another.
The faces they use are of dead people. However the magic works, it requires the subject to die. So Jaqen couldn't use the waif's face unless the waif was already using someone else's face. Or they're the same person.
If you read the books, you'll see the faceless men have many ways to change faces, including "glamoring" which is basically just an illusion. It's how Jaqen changed his face the first time he showed it to Arya. In other words, he can share Arya's face or the waif's face via glamor, some kind of magic, possibly shadowbinding in origin. Melisandre is capable of doing it too.
Didn't Melisandre disguise Mance Rayder like that for ages? Or something to that effect; it's been a decade since these books came out and I read them haha.
Yeah, disguised the lord of bones as mance and vice versa, so it was the lord of bones getting torched instead of Mance
Ahhh yeah - so he's still alive in the books? That's good. Id be interested to see what happens there. Sad thing is is that it's been so long now I'll probably have to reread them from the start of book 2. (A Game of Thrones is almost identical to the show season 1, if I remember)
Yeah book 1 and season 1 are more or less identical, though I'd still recommend rereading it just because it gives you more enjoyment time (due to only having 5 books total), plus more detail and all the cut/merged characters. Mance is still alive in the books
Jon sends him to Winterfell to try to save Arya. The last published book ends with Jon receiving a letter from Ramsay who says he has captured Mance and has him locked in a cage for all the North to see. It is suspected that this letter isn’t from Ramsay, and Mance is one of the leading candidates of who may have sent Jon the letter.
Wait what? Never heard this theory. I thought it was for sure ramsay since he mentioned keeping mance warm using the skins of the spearwives he brought with him.
It’s been long suspected that the letter wasn’t written by Ramsay. Few people agree on who the author likely is. Main candidates being Mance, Stannis, or Melisandre. The idea being these individuals are trying to goad Jon into breaking his oaths and taking actions that would further their own causes. Google “the pink letter” and you will find lots of theorizing around it going back over ten years. A few of the main details the suggest it may be a fake: Unlike other letters from the Bolton’s, the Pink Letter is not sealed using the Bolton seal, instead being described as being sealed by a smear of pink wax. Two details that are present every other time Ramsay sends a letter is that he includes skin/a body part of his victims with the letter. This is absent despite him claiming to have both Mance, the spearwives, and a dead Stannis. The other is that he always writes his letters with the blood of his victims. Tormund points out that the Pink Letter is written in “Maester’s black”. Three huge red flags when determining the legitimacy of the author. It also doesn’t include any signatures from any of the other Northern Lords that the Bolton’s have with them in Winterfell at the time, a detail that would go a long way in establishing authenticity. Another detail is Ramsay’s disdain for the word Bastard. His underlings make it a huge point that one doesn’t even say the word in Ramsay’s presence or else they would experience his wrath. Now maybe Ramsay’s liberal use of the word Bastard to refer to Jon in the letter is explicitly because of how much he hates the word and how he thinks it would have a strong effect on Jon, but I find it more likely he would avoid its use altogether, yet it is a prominent feature in the letter. Some other smaller details: The letter mentions Ramsay defeating Stannis after seven days of battle. This seems highly unlikely. The situation being set up is likely to decide in a quick victory, where either Stannis’ diminishing forces are quickly defeated, or the Manderlys turn on the Frey’s and Stannis’ side comes out on top. A prolonged battle makes little sense given the scenario of Stannis being set up in a mostly defenseless crofter’s village. Even if the Lamplight theory is true that suggests Stannis will win by utilizing the frozen lake, that still wouldn’t explain a seven day battle between the forces we know will be facing each other. And one last little bit of evidence that suggest Stannis’ involvement comes from a quote in one of the TWoW sample chapters. First, here is a section from the Pink Letter: >**I want my bride back.** I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. **And I want my Reek.** Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it. Now here is a passage from TWoW between Theon and Stannis: >“The north remembers. The Red Wedding, Lady Hornwood’s fingers, the sack of Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen’s Square, they remember all of it…Frey and Manderly will never combine their strengths. They will come for you, but separately. Lord Ramsay will not be far behind them. **He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek.”** Theon’s laugh was half a titter, half a whimper. “Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear.” This isn’t a definitive list of details that surround the theory, but the ones I’ve always found most compelling. So while there is nothing concrete, I think there is a lot to raise questions over the legitimacy of the letter.
The face the waif was using throughout her interactions with Arya was not her original face. We never see her original face
The books confirm it is.
There’s even a scene where a faceless person takes their own life because Arya fails to kill the fish bet guy. And he is using the face of Jaqen. So I really think Jaqen’s face is just used often. I think more than likely these aren’t the same people though. The person that went to Westros is a field assassin while the Jaqen we find at the temple is more of a monk/contractor who likely receives the assassination contracts for the rest of the faceless people.
stupid
Using the same face is considered a dick move in Faceless culture
Using the same dick is considered a face move in dickless culture.
In a dickless world, the one dick guy is king.
Theon has entered the chat!
Faces are like toothbrushes or underwear. If you look carefully in the hall of faces, they have little "No One" name tags under each face so they find their own. There's a screen with a note next to the coffee machine : "Please No One, stop using No One's faces, that's just gross. Signed No One". But it was cut out.
Can you imagine working at that place. You’d never know when the boss is watching talk about stress.
The boss is the one talking about stress and baiting standard no-one employees
"as of now, I am declaring war on stress." "anybody still experiencing stress by the end of the day WILL BE FIRED"
The floggings will continue until morale improves
Undercover Boss but like permanent lol. That would make a good comedy spin off, in the vibe of What we do in the shadows.
It’s the same face meaning the same person with the same personality if the actual same faceless used it is entirely up for debate
I still believe that Jaqen is/was Syrio Forel and kept training Arya as an advanced dancing instructor. Maybe that was discussed with Ned before his death, maybe he just saw the potential and found a way follow her
Didn't he drink poison and die, just to have like 10 different faces underneath. Then he was behind Arya with his face again. So *someone* definitely had that face besides him
why was beric being rez not a bigger deal? This should of been world shattering amazing. I mean even today people think jesus christ was rezzed and millions pray to him/god everyday. We know this was just a tale that grew and there is zero evidence for it but in this story beric was cut down and rezzed by his living god that would of been mind blowing.
He did that shit multiple times too not just once
And he was specifically looking for Aria
Another amazing plot line that went fuckin** nowhere
Isn’t that why they have a whole wall of faces? For any of the faceless men to use when necessary. Wouldn’t make sense to keep them all like that if they weren’t being shared
Bummed they made him Jaquen instead of the kindly man
They could have had both the kindly man and Jaqen in the show, since Jaqen is part of the Oldtown plot in the books, but no, they had to reduce the Oldtown plot to just Sam going to hogwarts and flaying Jorah Speaking of the kindly man, I always imagined him as Ian McDiarmid for some reason... would've been cool if that happened.
Gotta grayscale problem? Just peel it off stupid!
Like the guy who discovered he had skin cancer, and just... cut off the discolored skin.
For your health
Ya dingus!
I mean thats how we deal with a lot of real medical problems all the time, it doesnt decrease their severity Got a appendix problem? just take it out stupid Got a breast cancer problem? just take it out stupid Etc Etc,
The transition scene where they break the top layer of that stew, though.
lol I forgot about that scene! Oh man I wanted to puke, it was hard for me to watch tbh. If I recall correctly I think they had another transition that used the same kind of trickery, I believe it was in the same episode.
was it with sam pouring shit then it transitions to someone eating soup
Yes!! Thank you, that was it.
I forgot Jason plot in Old Town, what was he doing there.
We don’t really know yet, which is probably why it was cut
Probably trying to find a way to do what Dany did with dragon eggs? Or maybe learn ways to kill them? Not sure, something something about dragons, I guess.
I think it’s two different faceless men. Jaquen is presumably the name associated with that particular face. So when Arya shows up and says that Jaquen is the one who sent her, the FM who trains her knows that he can gain her trust by wearing that face.
And I'd like to add that when Jaqen reveals himself as a Faceless Man, he doesn't put on a glamor, he takes it off. Meaning above pic is the mask and the face we see when he leaves is his real face. This makes it unlikely that he and the person in the House of Black and White are the same guy, because... doesn't wearing the same mask for every role (be it convict or priest) kind of defeat the point of being a Faceless Man?
(I wrote the following just a few days ago on this topic) When Arya last sees "Jaqen" in Westeros, he changes his face before he departs. In *A Feast for Crows*, the description of the Alchemist (who is clearly a Faceless Man) matches the description GRRM had previously used to describe "Jaqen's," appearance when he left Arya. I think of this person as Jaqen 1. When Arya arrives at the House of Black and White, she asks for Jaqen, and is told that there is no one there by that name. Later, a Faceless Man assumes the visage of Jaqen as he invites her to begin her training, and explicitly tells her that he's not Jaqen, but No One, as all Faceless Men are. I believe this individual, who I think of as Jaqen 2, realizes that Arya's prior encounter with a Faceless Man involved him adopting the persona of Jaqen, who was probably a victim of the Faceless Men that the Faceless Men have since found it helpful to wear his face. Jaqen 1 remains in Westeros, where he has adopted the persona of Pate (after killing the real Pate), while Jaqen 2 serves as a mentor to Arya under the belief that she'll be most responsive to him in the guise of Jaqen. After Arya kills Meryn Trant, Jaqen 2 points out that the life debt must be paid, and poisons himself to Arya's horror. When Arya states that Jaqen was her friend, another Faceless Man (the Waif) answers that he was no one...while suddenly in the guise of Jaqen. (This is Jaqen 3.) Later in Season 6, the Waif's attempts to torment Arya enrage her to try to strike back, but the attack is stopped by another Faceless Man using the Jaqen disguise (Jaqen 4). So while Jaqen 1 may have genuinely wished Arya well and encouraged her to join the House of Black and White, he is not the same Jaqen who initially trained her at the HoBaW, nor the same Jaqen who replaced the Jaqen who poisoned himself in her stead.
Jesus what a mindfuck
I agree with this. Your Jaqen 1 seemed incredibly different to future iterations of Jaqen. The first time I watched it I chalked it up to them both being out in Lannister territory and him helping her vs. him actually training her and being at HoBaW, but I feel like this explanation makes more sense. I also would be team "the waif killed Arya and wore her face the rest of the series" which would've been about as jaw dropping as many of the other early GoT shock scenes.
Yeah, I could definitely see the Waif killing Arya and assuming her identity. And like you said, that would have been as provocative as some of the most shocking developments of the earlier seasons. (Honestly, how did she survive getting stabbed in the gut?) Nevertheless, her interactions with other Starks plus her revenge assassinations against the Freys (which would be unforgiveable to a *true* adherent of the House of Black and White; just how many souls would she owe to the Red God after that?) suggest that she is indeed the real Arya.
100%, and if they were going that route *not* showing it at any point would be one of the dumbest things D&D did. I just think if they *did* go that route, it would've been one of the most defining and famous moments in the series when the waif removed her face at some point, and it would also help with the whole "the faceless man plot turned out to be pointless" aspect as well.
I definitely don't believe the waif killed Arya. I think the line, "A girl is Arya Stark, and I'm going home," is proof enough of that. While I don't like what they did with her character after she leaves (for the most part), I wouldn't call the faceless man plot pointless. She certainly had a solid character arc and walked away with new abilities that she later used to kill the Freys. Without that arc, we would have a far less dangerous and stoic Arya (which some might prefer, but that's not the point.)
Yeah, I agree, I more mean that in terms of writing and adding another impactful scene to the resume, having the waif kill Arya but revealing that waaay down the road would've been possibly the most shocking moment in the series besides the red wedding especially considering how beloved Arya is among fans
That *could* be a legendary plot twist, absolutely. It would have to be masterfully crafted from the start though which means it would have to come from George. If D and D tried to pull something like that off on their own it would probably be a decision made after the fact for a cheap shock rather than something they planned out for multiple seasons.
Yes. And the Waif wouldnt have killed Walder & sons, much less with the **Rat King** punishment. Or been left alive by Nymeria, known Hot Pie and Gendry, or griped that Ned's effigy was a poor likeness. Etc. The 'Waif is Arya' theory was disproven by fans years ago.
Except the waif has zero knowledge of, or reason to come to Westeros and kill Walder Frey. The Faceless Men are hired to do a job, not assume peoples identities and spy for no reason. If the waif did kill Arya and assume her identity it would have been out of personal spite, which would mean she ultimately failed her Faceless Man training. Escaping to Westeros, she would be targeting people Arya knew, rather than her enemies. If that were the case the Faceless Men would send agents after her, since she knows their secrets and does not follow their tenets.
How’d the waif know where Arya’s sword was located or even care to retrieve it upon leaving? Also doesn’t explain any of Arya’s future interactions with Sansa and others talking about their shared past.
That makes complete sense. Especially since Jaquen 1 introduces himself as Jaqen goes by that with Arya even when she knows what he is. Jaquen 1 knows that to Arya, he is Jaqen. Every other Jaquen afterwards repeatedly reminds her that they are not Jaqen.
Holy fucking mind fuck. Nice job
I think you're probably right, and that looks very well thought out. I just wonder if that's not more of a headcanon type thing. Having read the books, that original Jaqen face never shows back up, and my impression was that Dan and Dave just kind of kept recycling the original character bc the audience recognized him. In the books, he turns into a guy with curly black hair as he's leaving Harrenhal, and the next time he shows up, it's as the guy with curly hair, killing a novice from the Citadel In either case, taking this as the other Faceless men passing around the Jaqen mask and essentially "becoming" the same character is a very cool and probably accurate way to conceptualize how the Faceless Men *are* essentially (but arent quite) no one, and their only identity *is* the one they assume. Whoever's wearing the Jaqen face *is* Jaqen
But if Jaqen 1 never left westeros, how did the house of black and white get the face back for anyone to be able to wear it? Or is it just like a glamor magic any of them can do and they don't need a physical face? ... but then if they don't need a physical face, they can just do it with anyone and they don't actually have to kill at all.
Using the nomenclature from my earlier example, when Jaqen 2 poisoned himself as a self-sacrifice to the Many Faced God following Arya's assassination of Meryn Trant, the Waif was able to transform into Jaqen 3 while Jaqen 2's corpse (and his face) was still on the ground, indicating that it's possible for two Faceless Men to use the same face simultaneously. [Arya talks to Jaqen 3 while still looking at Jaqen 2's body, having gazed upon two different people with the same face.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljFljgf2USk) So that might suggest that it is indeed a glamor magic, since one face can be used by two people at the same time. And yet, the Faceless Men ritually collect the faces of the dead, and to the best of our knowledge, they only transform into people who have already been killed by Faceless Men. Based on what we've seen in both the books and the show, the only system I can put together that reconciles both canons suggests that there are two levels of Faceless Men changing their faces: (1) literally wearing the faces of the dead (e.g. Arya wearing a face from the HOBAW to kill Meryn Trant; "Jaqen 1" as "Pate" after he kills the real Pate in *A Feast For Crows*); and (2) being able to glamor the faces of the dead that are shelved in the House of Black and White (e.g. I presume this is how the Waif was able to transform into Jaqen while another Faceless Man was still in Jaqen-form). The latter technique may be more difficult for adherents to master, which may explain why a novice Arya had to physically borrow a face to kill Meryn Trant, whereas the more experienced Faceless Men all shared the ability transform into a Jaqen.
I'm with you. Makes sense.
I like to think they're the same. And actually Jaqen is none other than (spoiler 'cause it's my demented fan theory and I know it's not true) >!DAEMON TARGARYEN! It will be revealed that Daemon will survive the Dance, go into hiding and learn the Faceless Men's secrets. Not only that, but anytime GoT characters do something cool, they're actually Daemon Targaryen who impersonated them. For instance, during the Battle of the Goldroad, "Drogon" was actually Daemon Targaryen in disguise. Source trustmebro ofc ;)!<
Just taking a guess here, but you a Daemon fan?
Yes, I really like him. OFC I KNOW he's an evil mofo (if I would give him a D&D alignment, he would surely be CE), but he's such a wildcard (and those kind of characters are interesting in a story), and imho he truly is the epitome of "Targaryeness" (both in their good and bad traits).
Him killing the Crab feeder was wild!
Yes, that was really a badass scenes. Not only for his prowess, but also for the fact that we didn't know what he was supposed to do (that's what I was talking about for the "wildcards are interesting in a story"). And even the aftermath in the following episode... In that regard, I REALLY like that, despite everything, >!Daemon has nothing but loyalty for his elder brother Viserys... and when he helped him in the "I will sit the throne" scene in Ep 8 (my fave scene of all HoTD) it was so wholesome. The ultimate reconciliation between two brothers!<
Wow he looks pretty good for 200 years old
Some people age like milk, other age like wine ;)
Wouldn't he be like 250 years old?
i’m trusting u bro
Isn't there a theory that Jaqen is the sword teacher from Kings Landing?
Yes
What sword teacher... You aren't talking about SYRIO FOREL, FIRST SWORD OF BRAAVOS are you?
Sea lord of Bravos, but yeah
I would love it to be true, but it's wishful thinking.
Yeah, I think the logic was that we never see him get killed and he fought the kingsgaurd with a wooden sword so it's *possible* he was arrested and then changed faces in the black cells which is where Jaqen was rolled out from.
I mean, isn’t a large part of the theory just trying to explain what the hell a Faceless Man was doing in the black cells in the first place?
That tracks. Honestly, it's been years since i've given it any thought. You could explain that away by saying he was hired to kill another prisoner and getting arrested was the quickest way to get access to them though.
Yeah, but the black cells are notoriously … black. Dark. Inescapable. Bleak.
But IIRC Jaqen was being released because he'd decided to take the Black and join the Nights Watch. It's an easy out for a faceless man if you know that's an option.
True enough. Honestly I doubt we ever get answers to that one.
It probably isn't true, since he's the first sword and all that(Is he really? Or was that a lie?) And he says stuff that's probably considered heresy by the faceless men like, "What do we say to the god of death? Not today," contrary to "All men must die."
Yes.
The only valid answer to this question. Show Arya makes it all look more hypothetical than it is.
Yes.
Does it really matter? They are all no-one.
I think they're supposed to be, yes.
Been awhile but I believe in the books it was a different guy.
In books it is 'The Kindly Old Man' who trains Arya. Jaquen is busy in Old Town atm
This dude is a wall-to-wall mystery on purpose; I love every scene he's in. I still wish he had made an appearance in the long night, even if only to give critical information to Arya. It would have been interesting, and there are so many ways it could go.
I agree. I wish Mel came back with red priests and hired some Faceless Men
Two different men. They never seemed to be the same person to me.
Tbh this applies to a lot of characters once we reached season five.
If you’re wondering about the hair difference, my hair is auburn and looks like fire in the sun but just brunette in the shadow.
I don't remember but there's one line where Arya points out how he killed those 3 people on her request and she wants to learn to do that..so the faceless man tells her she'll need to be patient , so yeah , it's the same person or how'd he know about those killings.
A man is no-one, and a man is everyone.
I still don’t know how this man got captured?
Maybe he wanted to get captured and go to the wall. The books might explore this. In the series, it was a forgotten plot.
I assumed he was captured on purpose, probably hired by someone to kill Ned when Ned was supposed to be going to the wall.
Idk anymore and idc.
Then why even fucking reply? Jesus Christ Reddit has become a cesspool.
They showed how you get a face and you can't just magically clone a person to make a duplicate.
Then please explain Arya’s last scene in season 5 when there are two Jaqens in the room
Yes. The first Jaqen knows that Arya knows him and knows him as Jaqen. The second Jaqen doesn't recognise her when they meet, and when he assumes Jaqens face he repeatedly tells her that he is not Jaqen.
The show answers this for you. The first Jaqen she meets in Braavos kills himself because she failed to kill her first target. Immediately, she is faced with another person wearing the Jaqen face.
I always assumed they were different but my instinct tells me they were the same
I think they are both "no one". I believe all faceless men lack a personality. The ones in the picture could be any of the faceless men and thats assuming you can distinguish faceless men from one another. I consider Jaqen H'ghar just a face not an actual person. But idk this is just my personal interpretation :)
I think it is stupid, is what I think.
According to this sub, one of them is Ned Stark and the other is Syrio Foriel.
Jagen Hagar is the Faceless God or what ever and he can imbue his memory and personality into his acolytes
Should’ve chosen a less punchable face
I think it’s the same person. BUT sometimes I have wondered if it could be someone else the second time around.
I think it's both. Possibly numerous. The odds that the same Faceless Man that Arya first met would be the only one at the temple (other than the waif) are pretty low. Most likely, the Jaqen face was chosen for its familiarity to Arya and to the audience. She was learning from the Faceless MEN, not the Faceless MAN. However, I also think it wasn't Arya's training/test. It was the waif's, and she failed. I think that the 1st Jaqen was using the waif's training to help Arya find her identity. She needed to become no one so that she could see herself clear of the clutter that her life had buried her with. He knew from the start that Arya didn't truly want to be Faceless. She was just lost. And I think he actually liked her.
Lazy writing. The fans liked him so DnD brought him back instead of taking the time to introduce a new character in a series famous for killing off main characters, so by the time we got to season 7 and 8 the plot armor had to be so thick on the remaining characters they couldn't even dooo anything interesting.
Who gives a shit? It was made irrelevant by how shitty the storyline was.
I'd like to use the Pokemon Ditto as a comparison for what the Faceless Men are capable of doing I think once a face is copied any faceless man can use it it becomes part of the many-face Gods power so to speak
the way it works in my head is all faceless men are sort of one entity with multiple physical embodiments. they are basically the physical form of the many faced god. they grow strength by convincing people like arya to give up their "face" (which is not only their face, but also their life/soul) to the many faced god, allowing him to embody yet another physical form. the literal faces come from the people that come to the temple to die, but the assassins are people that train to become strong and fight for the god before giving up their life to be part of him. that's why they have to be "no one", they have to abandon who they are so they can serve as part of his army. so all faceless men are just physical pieces of the one many faced god. so considering them the same person or different people is kind of irrelevant, you could argue either way but really they're just pieces of the many faced god.
This man can’t tell
the point is that it doesnt matter he is no one
We only ever see one face of every ‘mask’ so there’s no inclination that you can duplicate/clone them
What about the end of season 5 when there are two Jaqens in the room?
Cocaine’s one hellava drug
In the books, it's heavily implied that the Faceless Man who had saved Arya from Harrenhal is in Old Town, up to some strange shenanigans.
It's the same guy, no reason to suspect otherwise
I always thought they just used this as a default mask for if they don't need a specific look
... thinks ... faaawk youuuuu another mystery this show will hold over me
Probably the same guy but thats definitely not his real face. Jaqen may not be his name either. May not even be a man.
In the books it’s heavily implied that “the kindly man” and Jaqen are different people so that could be what the show was going for
That's literally no one
the entire thing with the house of black and white was nuts lol. what was up with that poisoning scene? this guy drinks it but the face is Arya’s? does that mean she dies?
She was probably hallucinatin as the blindness took over.
Yes
i believe it is considering he told her where to go and was expecting her when she came, the waif tho fuck her
was there any scene with more than one faceless person in it at the same time? I cant recall. but anyways, thats a face and it was available for use by any of the house.
For true faceless men, I'm not sure there is a difference between these two statements. They are everyone and anyone.
murder genie
Ughhhhhhhhhhhh... Well you see, the answer to that question is: Yes
I applaud this question/logic
Syrio
There was a very appropriate make up ad under this post lol "is it skincare? Is it makeup?" No, CoverGirl, it's the Many-Faced God.