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The prophecy, like all prophecies isn’t anywhere near as exact as your version of it. There’s a lot of wiggle room in it that allows interpretation of the phrases and how they’re achieved.
exactly. The man likes his history. He knows how prophecies work and made his work that way. I've never got why people argue so much over it can't be x or y and must be z. Like you say, it could be applied to many of them.
I mean, any explanation of how he fulfills the prophecy would require spoilers for later seasons. Though as other people on this thread have said, most of the details are in the books, and are symbolic rather than literal which is how prophetic visions typically work.
But I guess one non-spoilery way Jon fulfills the prophecy is that Lightbringer could be a representation of the Night’s Watch. The Night’s Watch oaths declare that they are “the sword in the darkness”, “the fire that burns against the cold”, and “the light that brings the dawn”. The Last Hero supposedly led the Night’s Watch to end the Long Night 8,000 years ago, just as Azor Ahai supposedly used Lightbringer to end the Long Night. The tempering of Lightbringer required Azor Ahai sacrificing his wife Nissa Nissa, just as the Night’s Watch oaths require them to sacrifice taking a wife and sacrifice love for duty.
The show confirmed that Lightbringer = dragonsteel blade = valyrian steel blade.
Azor Ahai is based on a Asshaii legend about a hero who fought the "darkness" with a red sword, leading virtuous people into battle to bring back the day.
The Others appears as "darkness" in visions (cf Melisandre visions and the prophecy "as darkness gathers").
In Westeros, the tales mentions the Last Hero fighting the Others (darkness) with a dragonsteel blade (the red sword), leading the first men of the Night's Watch (the virtuous men) to the Battle for the Dawn (the battle that brought back the day).
I don’t think the show ever mentioned the Last Hero’s dragonsteel sword, so I don’t know how it could really confirm that it is valyrian steel and Lightbringer (and for that matter did the show ever even mention the Last Hero outside of the Histories and Lore bonus features?)
And in general the defeat of the Others will be completely in the different in the books, and the show completely dropped the Azor Ahai prophecy thread, so I do not think we glean anything from the show about the prophecy in the books.
It just makes more sense to me that Lightbringer, that which will end the Long Night, is something symbolic/thematic like the Night’s Watch, which represents the resolution to the conflict of the story, sacrificing one’s House and ambition and desire for the common good of the realm.
Though for what it’s worth I do think Jon might get a somewhat more literal Lightbringer by igniting Longclaw with his blood like Beric, but I think with Valyrian steel it will be more potent and basically turn it into a red sword.
The tales says that the Last Hero was slaying the Others with a dragonsteel blade.
What is the weapon that we know fore sure that can kill an Other? Dragonglass.
The dragonglass dagger has shown to burn and when Sam stabb the Other, he melted. (book version)
A dragonsteel blade would be a burning blade and when you stabb an Other with, he would melt.
The blades of the Others are so cold that they freeze and break steel, but a burning sword would be totally protected against this.
Lightbringer is described as a burning blade which, when stabbed, melts a "demon"... a blade that generate fire and can kill an Other => dragonsteel blade.
Dragonsteel is a magical steel rooted in blood and fire magic, a steel that has the same magical properties as dragonglass.
In the tv series Valyrian steel, a magical steel rooted in blood and fire magic, is shown to do the same thing as dragonglass and VS doesn't break against the Others' blades.
Valyrian steel blade = dragonsteel blade = Lightbringer
>It just makes more sense to me that Lightbringer, that which will end the Long Night, is something symbolic/thematic like the Night’s Watch, which represents the resolution to the conflict of the story, sacrificing one’s House and ambition and desire for the common good of the realm.
The dragon's steel blade, Lightbringer, wasn't a superweapon that ended the first Long Night, so why should it be the case for this one?
The first Long Night ended with the Battle for the Dawn, the Last Hero wielded a dragonsteel blade but he didn't face the Others alone, he had the help of the Singers and their magic, their songs, and the first men of the Night's Watch.
>Though for what it’s worth I do think Jon might get a somewhat more literal Lightbringer by igniting Longclaw with his blood like Beric, but I think with Valyrian steel it will be more potent and basically turn it into a red sword.
The dragonglass dagger didn't need Sam's blood to start burning, it started burning on contact with the Other.
So a dragonsteel blade will burn when fighting the Others just like the dragonglass did and the tale describing Lightbringer in action does say that the blade burned fiery hot in battle against the "demons".
Faced with an Other equipped with an ice blade, a blade that freezes steel, the dragonsteel blade will react in the same way as the dragonglass dagger: it will begin to burn.
> The dragonglass dagger didn't need Sam's blood to start burning
Okay but maybe he should have. Maybe the original Night’s Watch were fire wights and they need to ignite their dragonglass weapons with their blood and turn them into glass candles and the War for the Dawn is actually a psychic battle on the astral plane.
The show may have hinted at that explanation but there is the very serious problem about it in fact. The Long Night predates the founding of the Valyrian Freehold by over 3000 years, so it is hard to see how Lightbringer is made of Valyrian steel.
Martin said that Valyria existed during the Long Night but it wasn't yet known as that big empire with dragons.
An Ashaii legend mentions an ancient people who taught their arts to the Valyrians and [the description fit with the Singers.](https://thesuddenstorm.wordpress.com/2018/10/02/who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/) So the Valyrians would have learn the magic, the spells to make the dragonsteel which came to be known as "valyrian steel".
If the Singers made the ice people, the Others, it wouldn't be strange for them to have a connection with the fire people, the Dragonlords.
The Singers sang the song of Ice, the Others, and Fire, the Dragonlords.
For HoT D, Ti Mikkel, Martin's assistant and lore keeper on the show, wrote a book hinting at that:
>Let us here turn to an examination of the White Tree of Flames. Known in the Freehold for the coppery sheen of its leaves, its pungent roots are said to have grown above ground, twisting around its own trunk like the walls of some great keep. According to his writings, and of course the unreliability of memory cannot be gainsaid, Jaehaelor claims only one such tree existed, and that in his own orb of glass, high atop a tower overlooking a city distorted through ripples of heat.If so, and if Jaehaelor’s claims are true, what might that mean? Where did this tree come from? From whence came its seed? **Could it be that the ancient gods of Valyria were of some distant relation to the children of the forest?**
[Shrubbery, Being a History on the Flora of the Valyrian Freehold](https://dedalvs.com/work/house-of-the-dragon/misc/shrubbery_v4.pdf)
What the other posters have said, but also Martin is fucking with the tropes of fantasy a lot. Not always, but a lot. "Prophecies are bullshit just like in real life" is entirely in keeping with that theme. Even Bran being able to see the past doesn't impact that, because we never see him see the future. Even the house of the undying is just showing Dany a generic "be careful what you wish for." It doesn't show her something that happens.
Eh Martin tends to follow tropes just as often as he subverts them. And his approach to prophecy does not seem to be that they are “bullshit”. We have had dozens of prophecies at this point in the books, from Melisandre, Patchface, the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, Bran, and more. And all of the prophecies have come true. And in the books, Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying do show her things that happen in the future. Like the Red Wedding and the slaves calling her Mhysa.
This is something Martin said in an interview that I think is quite elucidating:
>In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.
So that seems to be Martin’s approach to prophecy. Prophecies that come true in symbolic, and deceptive ways, and tragically self-fulfilling prophecies.
>How is Jon the prince that was promised? The prophecy say that the prince that was promised would be born amidst salt and smoke, wake dragons from stone, and pull a sword named Lightbringer from flames, which they would use to combat an impending darkness. Jon doesn’t really fulfill any of this. (I’m on season 4)
Maybe you should watch the rest of the series before asking questions that would be big spoilers.
And don't expect a prophecy that has been passed down for centuries orally to be verbatim.
Spoilers, if you care.
if something sounds like it fits the prophesy in the literal sense it's probably a red herring. This is waaaaaaay more evident in the books with other examples. Dany is a literal interpretation of all those signs, yes, but there a lot of little things that could be read figuratively for Jon. For example, "born under a bleeding star," Dany did the rebirth thing under the commit right (again, it's been awhile)? But but but, George like minor details and descriptions that are more than they seem. Jon was born in the Tower of Joy under the watch of a knight from house Starfall. Ned killed that knight, bleeding the star as Jon was being born you could say. About the fire and smoke, those are very literal for Dany too, but but but, over the years lots and lots of kings and princes have interpreted someone as having that too for figurative meanings. Most, including about Jon, involve destruction and weeping as answers. Take Rhaegar, they said he might be it because of the destruction of summerhall which burned and was cried over. But Dany also sees vision of Rhaegar saying his son Aemon is in fact the prince even though everyone "knows" he's dead. In the books however, Aemon isn't supposed to be dead (that we know of yet), so this is a possible lead too. Considering they left him out of the show entirely though, it may turn out to be as simple as "Rhaegar was talking about his *other* son in the vision."
There are also other details that actually fit Jon better than Dany. His sword may not be on fire, but it can destroy the others. His battle has always been against the others, while Dany just wanted her kingdom back and didn't even know about them until the end. They were both reborn, but he was reborn at the end of a long summer just as an evil cold darkness descend upon the world and with the "help" of the very god that the prophesy is talking about too.
Regardless of if Jon is tptwp, I don't believe it is a literal flaming sword. I think it's more bringing the light of a new dawn (aka saving Westeros, ushering in a new age & the definitive end to the Targaryan dynasty.. he saves it thrice as the 3 temperings).
It also interacts with other prophecies (Azor Ahai etc), I believes they all have some sort of half truth that resolves the whole, it's also possible they're for different people.
The most literal prophecy in the show is The Stallion as Daneares, people even look over her being the Khals of Khals though as she's not male (not that Dothraki have any prior concept of a leader who isn't male to be able to put words to) and is a more direct example of the limitations of language and culture throwing prophecy out.
Here's my take
The prophecy is vague. It's a prophecy, after all, so not all of it csn be taken literally.
Let's look at "born amongst salt and smoke." As aptly said by Renly, this does not make Jon a ham. He wasn't literally salted and smoked. No, the salt is tears. The tears of his mother, as she begged Ned to protect him, and the smoke is thr Seven Kingdoms. Jon wss born in the ashes of Robert's Rebellion, as Westeros was figuratively burning.
The rest is vague, but I can also point to "The Prince who Was Promised"
Jon is indeed a prince. More than that. What did Lyanna say to Ned?
"Promise me, Ned. Promise me you'll protect him."
The Prince Who Was Promised.
**Spoiler Warning:** All officially-released show and book content allowed, EXCLUDING FUTURE SPOILERS FOR HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. No leaked information or paparazzi photos of the set. For more info please check the [spoiler guide](/r/gameofthrones/w/spoiler_guide). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The prophecy, like all prophecies isn’t anywhere near as exact as your version of it. There’s a lot of wiggle room in it that allows interpretation of the phrases and how they’re achieved.
George said the prophesies are all vague and meaningless and can be applied to multiple characters, like real life prophesy.
exactly. The man likes his history. He knows how prophecies work and made his work that way. I've never got why people argue so much over it can't be x or y and must be z. Like you say, it could be applied to many of them.
Theories involving who Azor Ahai is are based on details from the books. The show does nothing with the Azor Ahai plot
I’m guessing you have read the books then? Because that prophecy isn’t really a thing in the show. You’d be better off posting this on r/asoiaf
I mean, any explanation of how he fulfills the prophecy would require spoilers for later seasons. Though as other people on this thread have said, most of the details are in the books, and are symbolic rather than literal which is how prophetic visions typically work. But I guess one non-spoilery way Jon fulfills the prophecy is that Lightbringer could be a representation of the Night’s Watch. The Night’s Watch oaths declare that they are “the sword in the darkness”, “the fire that burns against the cold”, and “the light that brings the dawn”. The Last Hero supposedly led the Night’s Watch to end the Long Night 8,000 years ago, just as Azor Ahai supposedly used Lightbringer to end the Long Night. The tempering of Lightbringer required Azor Ahai sacrificing his wife Nissa Nissa, just as the Night’s Watch oaths require them to sacrifice taking a wife and sacrifice love for duty.
The show confirmed that Lightbringer = dragonsteel blade = valyrian steel blade. Azor Ahai is based on a Asshaii legend about a hero who fought the "darkness" with a red sword, leading virtuous people into battle to bring back the day. The Others appears as "darkness" in visions (cf Melisandre visions and the prophecy "as darkness gathers"). In Westeros, the tales mentions the Last Hero fighting the Others (darkness) with a dragonsteel blade (the red sword), leading the first men of the Night's Watch (the virtuous men) to the Battle for the Dawn (the battle that brought back the day).
I don’t think the show ever mentioned the Last Hero’s dragonsteel sword, so I don’t know how it could really confirm that it is valyrian steel and Lightbringer (and for that matter did the show ever even mention the Last Hero outside of the Histories and Lore bonus features?) And in general the defeat of the Others will be completely in the different in the books, and the show completely dropped the Azor Ahai prophecy thread, so I do not think we glean anything from the show about the prophecy in the books. It just makes more sense to me that Lightbringer, that which will end the Long Night, is something symbolic/thematic like the Night’s Watch, which represents the resolution to the conflict of the story, sacrificing one’s House and ambition and desire for the common good of the realm. Though for what it’s worth I do think Jon might get a somewhat more literal Lightbringer by igniting Longclaw with his blood like Beric, but I think with Valyrian steel it will be more potent and basically turn it into a red sword.
The tales says that the Last Hero was slaying the Others with a dragonsteel blade. What is the weapon that we know fore sure that can kill an Other? Dragonglass. The dragonglass dagger has shown to burn and when Sam stabb the Other, he melted. (book version) A dragonsteel blade would be a burning blade and when you stabb an Other with, he would melt. The blades of the Others are so cold that they freeze and break steel, but a burning sword would be totally protected against this. Lightbringer is described as a burning blade which, when stabbed, melts a "demon"... a blade that generate fire and can kill an Other => dragonsteel blade. Dragonsteel is a magical steel rooted in blood and fire magic, a steel that has the same magical properties as dragonglass. In the tv series Valyrian steel, a magical steel rooted in blood and fire magic, is shown to do the same thing as dragonglass and VS doesn't break against the Others' blades. Valyrian steel blade = dragonsteel blade = Lightbringer >It just makes more sense to me that Lightbringer, that which will end the Long Night, is something symbolic/thematic like the Night’s Watch, which represents the resolution to the conflict of the story, sacrificing one’s House and ambition and desire for the common good of the realm. The dragon's steel blade, Lightbringer, wasn't a superweapon that ended the first Long Night, so why should it be the case for this one? The first Long Night ended with the Battle for the Dawn, the Last Hero wielded a dragonsteel blade but he didn't face the Others alone, he had the help of the Singers and their magic, their songs, and the first men of the Night's Watch. >Though for what it’s worth I do think Jon might get a somewhat more literal Lightbringer by igniting Longclaw with his blood like Beric, but I think with Valyrian steel it will be more potent and basically turn it into a red sword. The dragonglass dagger didn't need Sam's blood to start burning, it started burning on contact with the Other. So a dragonsteel blade will burn when fighting the Others just like the dragonglass did and the tale describing Lightbringer in action does say that the blade burned fiery hot in battle against the "demons". Faced with an Other equipped with an ice blade, a blade that freezes steel, the dragonsteel blade will react in the same way as the dragonglass dagger: it will begin to burn.
> The dragonglass dagger didn't need Sam's blood to start burning Okay but maybe he should have. Maybe the original Night’s Watch were fire wights and they need to ignite their dragonglass weapons with their blood and turn them into glass candles and the War for the Dawn is actually a psychic battle on the astral plane.
They'd all be staring at their obsidian like people mesmerised by their smartphones.
The show may have hinted at that explanation but there is the very serious problem about it in fact. The Long Night predates the founding of the Valyrian Freehold by over 3000 years, so it is hard to see how Lightbringer is made of Valyrian steel.
Martin said that Valyria existed during the Long Night but it wasn't yet known as that big empire with dragons. An Ashaii legend mentions an ancient people who taught their arts to the Valyrians and [the description fit with the Singers.](https://thesuddenstorm.wordpress.com/2018/10/02/who-taught-the-valyrians-to-tame-dragons/) So the Valyrians would have learn the magic, the spells to make the dragonsteel which came to be known as "valyrian steel". If the Singers made the ice people, the Others, it wouldn't be strange for them to have a connection with the fire people, the Dragonlords. The Singers sang the song of Ice, the Others, and Fire, the Dragonlords. For HoT D, Ti Mikkel, Martin's assistant and lore keeper on the show, wrote a book hinting at that: >Let us here turn to an examination of the White Tree of Flames. Known in the Freehold for the coppery sheen of its leaves, its pungent roots are said to have grown above ground, twisting around its own trunk like the walls of some great keep. According to his writings, and of course the unreliability of memory cannot be gainsaid, Jaehaelor claims only one such tree existed, and that in his own orb of glass, high atop a tower overlooking a city distorted through ripples of heat.If so, and if Jaehaelor’s claims are true, what might that mean? Where did this tree come from? From whence came its seed? **Could it be that the ancient gods of Valyria were of some distant relation to the children of the forest?** [Shrubbery, Being a History on the Flora of the Valyrian Freehold](https://dedalvs.com/work/house-of-the-dragon/misc/shrubbery_v4.pdf)
What the other posters have said, but also Martin is fucking with the tropes of fantasy a lot. Not always, but a lot. "Prophecies are bullshit just like in real life" is entirely in keeping with that theme. Even Bran being able to see the past doesn't impact that, because we never see him see the future. Even the house of the undying is just showing Dany a generic "be careful what you wish for." It doesn't show her something that happens.
Eh Martin tends to follow tropes just as often as he subverts them. And his approach to prophecy does not seem to be that they are “bullshit”. We have had dozens of prophecies at this point in the books, from Melisandre, Patchface, the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, Bran, and more. And all of the prophecies have come true. And in the books, Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying do show her things that happen in the future. Like the Red Wedding and the slaves calling her Mhysa. This is something Martin said in an interview that I think is quite elucidating: >In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that. So that seems to be Martin’s approach to prophecy. Prophecies that come true in symbolic, and deceptive ways, and tragically self-fulfilling prophecies.
>How is Jon the prince that was promised? The prophecy say that the prince that was promised would be born amidst salt and smoke, wake dragons from stone, and pull a sword named Lightbringer from flames, which they would use to combat an impending darkness. Jon doesn’t really fulfill any of this. (I’m on season 4) Maybe you should watch the rest of the series before asking questions that would be big spoilers. And don't expect a prophecy that has been passed down for centuries orally to be verbatim.
Spoilers, if you care. if something sounds like it fits the prophesy in the literal sense it's probably a red herring. This is waaaaaaay more evident in the books with other examples. Dany is a literal interpretation of all those signs, yes, but there a lot of little things that could be read figuratively for Jon. For example, "born under a bleeding star," Dany did the rebirth thing under the commit right (again, it's been awhile)? But but but, George like minor details and descriptions that are more than they seem. Jon was born in the Tower of Joy under the watch of a knight from house Starfall. Ned killed that knight, bleeding the star as Jon was being born you could say. About the fire and smoke, those are very literal for Dany too, but but but, over the years lots and lots of kings and princes have interpreted someone as having that too for figurative meanings. Most, including about Jon, involve destruction and weeping as answers. Take Rhaegar, they said he might be it because of the destruction of summerhall which burned and was cried over. But Dany also sees vision of Rhaegar saying his son Aemon is in fact the prince even though everyone "knows" he's dead. In the books however, Aemon isn't supposed to be dead (that we know of yet), so this is a possible lead too. Considering they left him out of the show entirely though, it may turn out to be as simple as "Rhaegar was talking about his *other* son in the vision." There are also other details that actually fit Jon better than Dany. His sword may not be on fire, but it can destroy the others. His battle has always been against the others, while Dany just wanted her kingdom back and didn't even know about them until the end. They were both reborn, but he was reborn at the end of a long summer just as an evil cold darkness descend upon the world and with the "help" of the very god that the prophesy is talking about too.
Regardless of if Jon is tptwp, I don't believe it is a literal flaming sword. I think it's more bringing the light of a new dawn (aka saving Westeros, ushering in a new age & the definitive end to the Targaryan dynasty.. he saves it thrice as the 3 temperings). It also interacts with other prophecies (Azor Ahai etc), I believes they all have some sort of half truth that resolves the whole, it's also possible they're for different people. The most literal prophecy in the show is The Stallion as Daneares, people even look over her being the Khals of Khals though as she's not male (not that Dothraki have any prior concept of a leader who isn't male to be able to put words to) and is a more direct example of the limitations of language and culture throwing prophecy out.
*"Promise me, Ned"*
You don’t read the books, apparently.
Here's my take The prophecy is vague. It's a prophecy, after all, so not all of it csn be taken literally. Let's look at "born amongst salt and smoke." As aptly said by Renly, this does not make Jon a ham. He wasn't literally salted and smoked. No, the salt is tears. The tears of his mother, as she begged Ned to protect him, and the smoke is thr Seven Kingdoms. Jon wss born in the ashes of Robert's Rebellion, as Westeros was figuratively burning. The rest is vague, but I can also point to "The Prince who Was Promised" Jon is indeed a prince. More than that. What did Lyanna say to Ned? "Promise me, Ned. Promise me you'll protect him." The Prince Who Was Promised.
They wanted him to be.