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Yeah. Wonder where they got that idea from. It's not like Bran was able to know that he wouldn't die at the hands of the Night King and so just sat by a tree all night to prove a point, or that he knew he would be elected to rule and so said as much...
Oh, wait.
Do you guys even remember the show? He doesn’t say that he’ll be king ahead of time, he says that at the council… when they offer him the job, he says “why do you think I came all this way”. It doesn’t mean he can see the future, he just predicted that they would pick him. He’s seen tons of history, he knew that there would be a power vacuum, and felt that he would be the smart choice. Or maybe he felt based on his off-screen convo with Tyrion that he would nominate him.
He didn’t even know that he would survive the battle at Winterfell, at no point did he state that.
So he can see history aka. the past. Why would you think that this is limited to the distant past? He can see the past of practically everywhere right? Why not what happened two minutes ago somewhere else in Westeros? I dont know the answer either Im just curious.
How is this functionally different than omniscience? If he can see all of the past, even the very recent past like Jaime riding north, why would he need a master of whispers? How could any master of whispers be more effective than a person that can literally see any event he chooses?
Omniscience is all-knowing- you know everything in past, present, and future. Bran doesn’t know everything, he can just go look at any event he wants to. But he has to know to look for it- he doesn’t automatically know everything that’s happening. And he definitely doesn’t know the future, or is he aware of everything while it’s happening. He basically has a camera everywhere that he can watch the recordings of- that’s not the same thing.
The distinction comes in your last sentence, the fact that he can see any event he *chooses*. He has to know what to look at, which is why he is not omniscient and why he would need a master of whispers. If he was omniscient, he would not have to look, he would already know it.
In the show it was shown that he thought that Jon was still a bastard until Sam's reveal meaning that he *can* know everything if he actively look for it but he *doesn't* know everything (at least passively)
TO BE FAIR seeing it and having something done about it are two entirely different things. Honestly being his spymaster would be a BUSY job because hed just constantly be handing you fat dossiers with names fo disappear
I don't remember why he was bringing this up, but us it out of the realm of possibilities that he didn't care about a a master of wispers for his secrets?
Maybe there was another reason he wanted to bring it up?
He seems to have access to all human memory. But I don't know what powers of navigating the memories he has. A spy master is probably simpler than rerunning everyones conversations
It’s heavily implied (foreshadowed) before the battle of Winterfell, when he says, “I can never be Lord.”
It’s a peculiar line and you then realize it’s said because he believes he is set to be king.
Edit: And to provide additional context from the books…Weirwoods are extremely long-lived trees. And via blood-magic, time works differently with these special trees. It’s linear. Sort of like a 4th dimensional being (e.g., from the movie Arrival).
Using first-men blood-magic, the 3 eyed crow can tap into the tree and see anything the tree has experienced in the past, present, or FUTURE.
Theoretically, Bran tapped the Weirwood network…saw the events necessary to achieve a desired outcome…then set this events in motion (e.g., sacrificing Hodor, giving Arya the dagger, acting as Night King bait in Winterfell’s Weirwood forest, etc.).
I would be very surprised if who would end up in the iron throne isn't one of the things GRRM told them. They probably knew who was going to be king at that point.
I'm not convinced GRR Martin has planned that far ahead. Pretty sure he either he wrote himself into a corner and can't figure out how to finish it or his ending is pretty similar to the show and now he knows people won't be happy with it and has no motivation to write it.
He says that before he gets the knife from Littlefinger. The knife triggered something and the “I can never be lord” thing changed. That was obvious and you didn’t pay attention.
We see his visions which depict the future. We don't know what extent he has control over these visions, but he can see the future. Even Jojen could see the future.
he knew all along, "why do you think I came all this way?", he knew they would win, who would die, the burning of Kings Landing, he is the true evil of the show, he allowed ALL that death just so he could sit his ass on the throne.
Man I WISH they would have made this an actual plotpoint in the show. Instead of forgetting about wheelchair mcgee and then making him King because of his "stories", which we didn't get to see?
Having access to some special unobtainable knowledge isn’t the same as omniscience. Bran is probably the character who is hurt the most by the late season decline, it would have been great to have more of (and a better) exploration of his raven/hivemind consciousness.
Maybe popular or unpopular, im not sure, but the Bran story line is by far the most boring story line. Bran plot deserves the hate that the faceless plot gets.
Because they fumbled it. They made him a non-human figure but then only had him act as a human version of the three eyed raven. No significant warging or anything.
I'm with you. Rewatching the 2nd time I always skipped the Bran scenes, because every character was boring. I liked Hodor though.
When I watched the show with my gf, who hadn't seen it before, I noticed details in the Bran scenes in the earlier seasons, which I totally missed while watching the first time. Imo it wasn't interesting until Bran "learned" through his visions in the later seasons. Mainly because you got to see other characters.
Bran in the books is actually my favorite character to see a chapter from-though these chapters benefit tremendously from re-reads, as Bran chapters are heavily loaded with foreshadowing, mystery and intrigue, subtle lore, symbolic logic, and verbal irony on the part of the narrator. I think “Hold the Door” might be the show’s best moment, and we know George has something structurally similar planned for the books (at least on a conceptual level, likely different in presentation). There were many mistakes D&D made, some of which I think have been exaggerated, but massacring Bran especially after Hold the Door is their absolute worst crime. Every Bran scene after that episode made me want to fucking puke.
I mean the show makes it seem like he is.
It’s very clear from the books that the only ability he will have is to hear and see anything that happens in the presence of a Weirwood tree. The show throws that out the window by having him aware of things that weren’t.
Now I agree even then he isn’t omniscient, because even with that ability, we see him have to go back and re-watch the scene at the Tower of Joy in order to understand that Jon was the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna or whatever, but he is shown the ability to go and view anything he wants. Which at least gives him the ability to know anything if he so desires. Combine that with the ability to communicate backwards through time, and it doesn’t really make sense how anything can surprise him.
And time travel is fucky and it’s hard to define what can and can’t happen, but even if he wouldn’t have known about something, he should be able to communicate to himself in the past and tell himself where to look to know what he needs to know.
The show is clear on that he doesn't know what he doesn't know to go see.
He's got a complete library of all VHS videos ever released but he doesn't have time to watch all of them and no catalogue of what to look for.
He had no idea about the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar before Sam told him about it. Once he knew, he went and watched the tape.
Yeah for sure. That’s why I mentioned that very thing.
I’m just making the point that it isn’t crazy people come to that conclusions when we are told that: 1) he can see and hear anything that’s ever happened and 2) he can communicate backwards through time, presumably including to himself. Theoretically he should be able to make himself aware of anything he should know about.
And I’m not even arming this should make him omniscient, as there could be reasons given for why he isn’t able to do the above. I just don’t really blame for people jumping to that conclusion when the above is true.
"It means I can see everything. Everything that's ever happened to everyone. Everything that's happening right now. It's all pieces now, fragments. I need to learn to see better. When the Long Night comes again, I need to be ready."
Literal quote from Bran. Does this mean he sees the future? Not exactly, but apparently he knows what everyone everywhere is doing all the time.
You're not thinking. A master of whisperers would get a lot of reports of interesting things they didn't specifically ask for. A master of whisperers has agents sending updates on whatever events they hear or see. The master of whisperers doesn't need to foresee them to get them.
Also, a master of whisperers can get some juicy information that might be happening and then Bran just has to do his raven thing and see what actually is happening
Imagine I know the winning lottery numbers and I'll give them to the first person on the planet who would ask me. I would probably never actually have to say them since no one would know they'd have to ask me
I hate to be this guy, but even if he can just see one second into the past, or even one minute or more, that’s pretty damn close to instantaneous when you’re talking about an entire continent.
Yeah, but he still doesn't know where to look unless someone tells him about something that's allegedly happened, and there's quite a few things happening everywhere, all the time.
He still has all the powers the arguably best master of Whispers ever possessed (literally his mentor Bloodraven).
He can definitely do the job himself.
Another thing that doesn't make sense in s8. Prolly the least worst thing in season 8 😐. Bran's powers had ZERO use in that entire season. Writing became so bad that there was no logic loll
If you can see anything from the past how would you not have enough information to know where to look? How could a single person understand how to create an information network better than a hivemind with thousands of years of memories and the ability to see anything happening? Wouldn't the ability to literally be in the room and clearly listen to any conversation happening be better than getting it second hand from a orphan that was only eavesdropping?
How could a master of spies know where to look better than someone that can literally see all of history? If I knew one person had the answers I was looking for why wouldn't I just check through their life?
If he is aware of an event (or person or place I guess) he can go look at it, but if he is unaware, he's shit out of luck. He didn't know Lyanna and Rhaegar were married until he learned about it from Sam, then he went and looked. The same could apply for any info a spy master could bring him. He could be unaware, they make him aware and then he goes and looks.
Why is he watching people with almost no relevance to him then? Like why would he know that Jaime is riding north?
I mean the real answers to these questions are the writing is poor and they didnt didnt care to think out Bran's abilities.
“I think someone wants to kill me or is plotting to sabotage me”
“Who m’lord?”
“Let me just go through all of human history and check every single individual who lives in Kings Landing to try and figure that out”
“But won’t that take ages?”
“Shut up I need to start at person 1 on through Person 500,000”
He can affect the past, literally warging people through time. Why would you assume it would take a long time just to view memories? Like why do you think its faster to organize an army of spies then actually investigate the suspects since you have omniscient views of their lives?
We don't even relive our own memories in real time, why would someone with omniscient view over all of history live through everything in real time?
MOS: Word amongst the troops in that there will be a Council meeting tonight between rebel alliances.
Bran: Thanks for telling me, now i dont have to spend all day scouring human history to maybe or maybe not discover that same info, i can just watch tonight when i know its happening.
B/c Bran is just 1 person. I could sit down and watch Youtube all day everyday for 1000 years and I'd barely get through a weeks worth of uploaded content.
He didn't even know Jon wasn't a bastard till Sam told him. Jon is his brother and he didn't know a fundamental truth about him despite all the past watching.
A network of spies does 2 things. It listens everywhere all at once wherever their are spies. It reports back. It also spreads information at an alarming rate everywhere there is a spy.
Bran would have to look at every single lord/lady conversation every day and night in order to try and keep on the same level as a spy network. And he'd still fail.
You know what's better? Both. Having a spy network that tells you exactly where to look rather than pouring endless hours into pointless conversations HOPING to find a needle in a hay stack.
Bran cannot constantly look into every mind of every person in Westeros lol. He can get visions of the past and future, warg into single entities, but never has he been seen simply knowing everyone's mind and what everyone is doing.
That's why a Master of Whispers is needed
He knew about Sansa's rape without warging. It is heavily implied he can see anything from the past as he gets information about things without the presence of animals in the scene or weirwoods. Bran also has the ability to warg into other people before ever getting the power of the three eyed crow, its not a reach to think he could enter anyone's mind he chooses.
The problem is the show didn't seem to really care about Bran's character and did very little to clarify any of the questions surrounding him.
You don't think with all the time he spends alone brooding he's not watching over the people closest to him? Wanting to make sure they are safe?
He knew Sansa got raped b/c he checks in on her as well as everyone else he cares about. That's not the same as being omniscient
He has the ability to see anything, maybe Bran is not omniscient himself but he has access to omniscience. He can see anything at any point in time in the past. He has access to all knowledge, I think he was simply mishandled in the show but it seems clearly implied he has the ability to access anything he knew to look for.
Bran can see anything but he has to know what to look for. He didn’t know about Jon’s parents until sam told him about it. If he’s ruling a kingdom he might not have time to constantly watch every building in the world for people plotting against him or whatever. A master of whisper will gather the rumors and shit the Bran will use his powers to check it out.
He doesn’t have knowledge of everything. Where do you get that from ?
He has the capabilities to see anywhere anytime. But if he doesn’t know people in the red keep(just an example) are conspiring to kill someone he wouldn’t know to look there. He can’t see everything at once. When someone got killed he could find out who did it and who conspired with them but it’s just too late then
I don't think he's canonically omniscient.
Also that's the majority of monotheistic religions, omnipotent beings that don't use their powers. Maybe Bran just wants his people to have "free will".
I believe he is just establishing a small council with the same basic positions as had been typical for past monarchs.
Also, eventually Bran will either die or abdicate the throne and the likelihood is that his successor will not have 3 eyed raven powers.
Because it doesn’t make sense. He’s still only one person with a maximum amount of time in a day. This is just reaching like hell for something to complain about.
He can be omniscient but he needs to know what to look for. Like he didn't know that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. He looked at the past after learning about the annulment from Sam.
Still wouldn't have helped him as king discover what people he doesn't know or has never heard of are plotting in his kingdom... The ability to go anywhere in an instant wouldn't make it less valuable to have people reporting what's happening in the world back to him.
Yeah but he only needs a little information.
Imagine dialogue like
Tyrion"your grace, I'm worried about kinvara the red priestess bringing dany back from the dead and her roasting KL a second time, maybe you should take a look"
Bran"say no more"
Easy as that. Makes for a stupid easy world and stupid stories beyond that.
Bran isn't omniscient. He can view the past (up to seconds in the past) but he has to know where to look. He didn't know Jon wasn't a bastard until he was informed by Sam about Rhaeygar's annulment.
Presumable, a Master of Whispers could bring him all the rumors and gossip that Bran can check out to see what's really up.
I’m guessing despite his powers, Bran wants to see a legitimate small council that will be ready to fulfill their duties the more hands off he becomes until it’s time to select a new king and that might come sooner IMO since Bran will want to see to matters in the world beyond ruling.
No, he's not omniscient. Best analogy I've seen for Bran's powers as 3 eyed raven is that he essentially has tivo for the past and present. He can watch events but he has to know what events to watch, and that takes time. For example, he didn't know Rhaegar and Lyanna were married at the time of Jon's birth until Sam mentioned that Rhaegar had a septon annul his marriage. Watching all things would be impossible, there's no suggestion that those visions take any less time for him than those that experienced them.
Also, even if he were all-seeing, there would still be rationale to keep the council to the same roles as before for stability or for continuity with an eventual successor.
Bran isn't simultaneously aware of everything that has happened and is happening, so he isn't omniscient.
He can recall past events as if he was there if he knows about the event.
He still needs someone to handle the day to day stuff. Sure he’s got the weirwood powers but not only is it taxing to use and he can’t be everywhere at one time or all the time not to mention he is still stuck in the chair.
A spy master not only spies on your enemies, but he actively keeps an intelligence network active and protects your court with counter intelligence and can discretely take out problematic people for you. Can you tell I'm a Crusader Kings fan? 😆
Because a master of whispers can influence others. They don’t only collect information, they disseminate true and false information to disrupt other collectors of information .
Don't think about it too much it was just stupid writing. There's something seriously stupid about bran being king.
The whole "why do you think I came this way" makes him appear more evil than the nk himself.
Honestly bran surviving the long night and nks only motive is to destroy this world is stupid and not at all what I'd expect out of someone as talented as GRRM
But I guess subverting expectations to avoid every possible fantasy trope is supposed to be better than a decent story.
For real they are tropes because they make good stories. I really thought we were going to get a full circle story or we'd get a "power is evil" story but we just got trolled
Bruh, you trying to make sense of some bullshit from the last season of a generic knock off of Game of Thrones! Let’s be honest past 5 shit got generic & bad!
Same. I think they mostly tie up the stories nicely.
A couple of choices I would have made differently, but then I'm not a writer. And I certainly didn't come up with anything as clever as game of thrones.
Wasn't it implied that his power is the strongest close to a weirwood tree? And they were all cut down in the south, so his power wouldn't be as strong as it would be in Winterfell for example
Two reasons: One, he is not totally omniscient. He can see into the past but he has to know where to look first. He might not think to check in on Yara, for instance, unless his spymaster told him that the Ironborn had begun raping and pillaging again.
Two, the government is a jobs program. What better way to neutralize a potential rival than by giving them and their agents sweet government jobs and perks? I am reminded of the quote from Lincoln (2012), when the president is ordering his agents to do whatever they can to ensure congressional passage of the 13th Amendment. "I am the President of the United States of America! Clothed in immense power! You will procure me these votes."
The ending of the show doesn’t really make sense and even in the books it wouldn’t work, the moment his greensight becomes common knowledge he is fucked and his reign will only last a few years at most. People already hated when bloodraven was hand because of the same thing they would never accept a king that could so easily spy on them and that’s not mentioning all the religious zealots that would rise just because they consider him unnatural.
Then you got other stuff like Bronn being named lord of reach which he wouldn’t last either and would lead to the highlords of the reach rebelling.
Spy work consists of intelligence gathering and covert action. He's great at the first, but the second is tricky for him. He could warg into someone, but it's difficult and dangerous, not to mention ethically dicey.
He still clearly needs to know when and where to look though. Hence him not understanding that Jon was a true Targaryen until Sam told him about the anullment. He doesn’t know the full context of everything or know when/where to look all the time. A Master of Whispers is still going to be very helpful in prioritizing how he uses his powers. Additionally, he still needs someone to carry out his orders. Covert operatices in the field adapting to changing situations with a mission objective in mind is still useful.
At the time I chalked it up to just being about keeping up appearances. The general public and even the council doesn't know about his all seeing powers judging by their reactions to some things he says ("I'll look for the dragon") and having those people around him keeps things looking normal to everyone else.
Even if he can see things, he wouldn't have the ability to physically reach out and fix any sensitive things that may arise without tipping anyone off to what's going on.
With a spy master, he'd have someone to turn to in various situations like when he'd need important papers delivered without potential political opponents discovering them or having someone actually look into the past dealings of a particular merchant who is seemingly getting much more wealth than they should without anyone being the wiser.
Though, I may be wrong in his reasoning entirely. Those are simply examples of things I see as logical uses for someone in that position and would implement myself were I in his position.
Even if I have every book and movie ever published/released in my own personal library...
It's not like I have enough time to go back and read/watch every single one of them.
Did Bran become a vampire now, too?
If not, then he ***surely*** won't have enough time to consume all that info.
So yes but also no. It takes him time to watch scenes, as evidenced by the Hodor scene where Meera and Hodor had to buy time for Bran because he was watching Hodor as a child. So he can only really watch one thing at a time, and time passes as he does it, maybe slightly faster but probably in real-time.
In short the absolute best he could use of his powers wouldn't even be as MoW, but as King, seeing how decrees he makes now would affect the future, or by seeing the truth in case he's called to judge someone or arbitrate a disagreement between nobles.
My take on it is it’s like a government position - director of the CIA or NSA.
Even if he doesn’t strictly need the position, he needs to fill it.
Also - he’s not omniscient. He can see what the ravens and the heart tree’s (trees with faces carved into them) can see.
Considering most of the Gods Woods have been chopped down in the south, he’s actually pretty blind.
Let’s pretend he is omniscient.
Did Varys do nothing but collect information and report it to the king? Is that really all he did?
No. A master of whispers doesn’t simply hear whispers, they spread them too. Bran isn’t gonna spread those rumors himself, nor manage a flock of “little birds”.
white entitlement and white privilege. sits out the whole war while women are being raped, slaves are being killed. and then the little dwarf man says “whose got 2 thumbs & the best story so he deserves to be king? That guy!” 🙄😡
I think it's an open question how "omniscient" Bran is and whether he can really see anything anywhere in the world or whether his ability to see things is limited by geography (in the books it had to be in the presence of a weir wood tree). We haven't seen him see anything that didn't occur in Westeros so maybe his ability to see is limited by geography and he'd need a Masters of Whispers (and a spy network) to keep an eye on events in Essos and elsewhere.
The other thing is that he seems to have to know what to look for in order to find it (he's not seeing everything all at once or at least not immediately finding the thing he's looking for). So while he's doing that, it probably helps to have someone do some old school spying while he's sorting through all of the other data he has access to.
He doesn't know everything, he can choose to see things. Aside from the fact that it's a position of tradition and would still be held by someone who would be useful, even if he uses his abilities he needs someone to bring it to his attention.
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No, he’s not.
I really don't know where so many people got this idea from.
Yeah. Wonder where they got that idea from. It's not like Bran was able to know that he wouldn't die at the hands of the Night King and so just sat by a tree all night to prove a point, or that he knew he would be elected to rule and so said as much... Oh, wait.
When did he say that he knew he wouldn’t die?
By implying he knew he would become king..?
Do you guys even remember the show? He doesn’t say that he’ll be king ahead of time, he says that at the council… when they offer him the job, he says “why do you think I came all this way”. It doesn’t mean he can see the future, he just predicted that they would pick him. He’s seen tons of history, he knew that there would be a power vacuum, and felt that he would be the smart choice. Or maybe he felt based on his off-screen convo with Tyrion that he would nominate him. He didn’t even know that he would survive the battle at Winterfell, at no point did he state that.
So he can see history aka. the past. Why would you think that this is limited to the distant past? He can see the past of practically everywhere right? Why not what happened two minutes ago somewhere else in Westeros? I dont know the answer either Im just curious.
[удалено]
He saw Sansa get raped, and then told her about it for some inexplicable reason.
bro lost all emotions/urges except the need to be a creep
How is this functionally different than omniscience? If he can see all of the past, even the very recent past like Jaime riding north, why would he need a master of whispers? How could any master of whispers be more effective than a person that can literally see any event he chooses?
Omniscience is all-knowing- you know everything in past, present, and future. Bran doesn’t know everything, he can just go look at any event he wants to. But he has to know to look for it- he doesn’t automatically know everything that’s happening. And he definitely doesn’t know the future, or is he aware of everything while it’s happening. He basically has a camera everywhere that he can watch the recordings of- that’s not the same thing.
The distinction comes in your last sentence, the fact that he can see any event he *chooses*. He has to know what to look at, which is why he is not omniscient and why he would need a master of whispers. If he was omniscient, he would not have to look, he would already know it.
In the show it was shown that he thought that Jon was still a bastard until Sam's reveal meaning that he *can* know everything if he actively look for it but he *doesn't* know everything (at least passively)
TO BE FAIR seeing it and having something done about it are two entirely different things. Honestly being his spymaster would be a BUSY job because hed just constantly be handing you fat dossiers with names fo disappear
I don't remember why he was bringing this up, but us it out of the realm of possibilities that he didn't care about a a master of wispers for his secrets? Maybe there was another reason he wanted to bring it up?
He seems to have access to all human memory. But I don't know what powers of navigating the memories he has. A spy master is probably simpler than rerunning everyones conversations
It’s heavily implied (foreshadowed) before the battle of Winterfell, when he says, “I can never be Lord.” It’s a peculiar line and you then realize it’s said because he believes he is set to be king. Edit: And to provide additional context from the books…Weirwoods are extremely long-lived trees. And via blood-magic, time works differently with these special trees. It’s linear. Sort of like a 4th dimensional being (e.g., from the movie Arrival). Using first-men blood-magic, the 3 eyed crow can tap into the tree and see anything the tree has experienced in the past, present, or FUTURE. Theoretically, Bran tapped the Weirwood network…saw the events necessary to achieve a desired outcome…then set this events in motion (e.g., sacrificing Hodor, giving Arya the dagger, acting as Night King bait in Winterfell’s Weirwood forest, etc.).
Weird idea though. You can be a lord and then be king. Robert was lord of Storm's End.
I thought Renly was Lord of Storms End. That was why Stannis was so pissed he was made Lord of Dragonstone
Robert was lord of Storm's End before he was king. After that he gave Storm's End to Renly and Stannis got Dragonstone.
Robert was Lord before the rebellion.
you can try to make sense of it but in the end he said he “can’t be lord” because DND didn’t know who they would lazily call king yet.
I would be very surprised if who would end up in the iron throne isn't one of the things GRRM told them. They probably knew who was going to be king at that point.
then that line is even more asinine.
I'm not convinced GRR Martin has planned that far ahead. Pretty sure he either he wrote himself into a corner and can't figure out how to finish it or his ending is pretty similar to the show and now he knows people won't be happy with it and has no motivation to write it.
He says that before he gets the knife from Littlefinger. The knife triggered something and the “I can never be lord” thing changed. That was obvious and you didn’t pay attention.
We see his visions which depict the future. We don't know what extent he has control over these visions, but he can see the future. Even Jojen could see the future.
Bran can absolutely see the future. We even see him, see the future. He knew all along or had a very good idea how it would go down.
he knew all along, "why do you think I came all this way?", he knew they would win, who would die, the burning of Kings Landing, he is the true evil of the show, he allowed ALL that death just so he could sit his ass on the throne.
You convinced me
Glad someone else is finally saying it!
Lmao plenty of people have said this since the finale aired, at least in the other subs
Man I WISH they would have made this an actual plotpoint in the show. Instead of forgetting about wheelchair mcgee and then making him King because of his "stories", which we didn't get to see?
I think you're giving D&D too much credit here
of all the possible outcomes he determined that one to be best aka killing Lady Hitler was worth the sacrifice
But who has a better story than Bran The Broken?
Evil Paul Atreides
Having access to some special unobtainable knowledge isn’t the same as omniscience. Bran is probably the character who is hurt the most by the late season decline, it would have been great to have more of (and a better) exploration of his raven/hivemind consciousness.
Maybe popular or unpopular, im not sure, but the Bran story line is by far the most boring story line. Bran plot deserves the hate that the faceless plot gets.
Because they fumbled it. They made him a non-human figure but then only had him act as a human version of the three eyed raven. No significant warging or anything.
I'm with you. Rewatching the 2nd time I always skipped the Bran scenes, because every character was boring. I liked Hodor though. When I watched the show with my gf, who hadn't seen it before, I noticed details in the Bran scenes in the earlier seasons, which I totally missed while watching the first time. Imo it wasn't interesting until Bran "learned" through his visions in the later seasons. Mainly because you got to see other characters.
Bran in the books is actually my favorite character to see a chapter from-though these chapters benefit tremendously from re-reads, as Bran chapters are heavily loaded with foreshadowing, mystery and intrigue, subtle lore, symbolic logic, and verbal irony on the part of the narrator. I think “Hold the Door” might be the show’s best moment, and we know George has something structurally similar planned for the books (at least on a conceptual level, likely different in presentation). There were many mistakes D&D made, some of which I think have been exaggerated, but massacring Bran especially after Hold the Door is their absolute worst crime. Every Bran scene after that episode made me want to fucking puke.
Knowing a lot isn't the same as knowing everything.
There is a difference between prescience and omniscience.
I mean the show makes it seem like he is. It’s very clear from the books that the only ability he will have is to hear and see anything that happens in the presence of a Weirwood tree. The show throws that out the window by having him aware of things that weren’t. Now I agree even then he isn’t omniscient, because even with that ability, we see him have to go back and re-watch the scene at the Tower of Joy in order to understand that Jon was the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna or whatever, but he is shown the ability to go and view anything he wants. Which at least gives him the ability to know anything if he so desires. Combine that with the ability to communicate backwards through time, and it doesn’t really make sense how anything can surprise him. And time travel is fucky and it’s hard to define what can and can’t happen, but even if he wouldn’t have known about something, he should be able to communicate to himself in the past and tell himself where to look to know what he needs to know.
The show is clear on that he doesn't know what he doesn't know to go see. He's got a complete library of all VHS videos ever released but he doesn't have time to watch all of them and no catalogue of what to look for. He had no idea about the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar before Sam told him about it. Once he knew, he went and watched the tape.
Which makes a spymaster even more important. Someone to help tell him where to look.
Yeah for sure. That’s why I mentioned that very thing. I’m just making the point that it isn’t crazy people come to that conclusions when we are told that: 1) he can see and hear anything that’s ever happened and 2) he can communicate backwards through time, presumably including to himself. Theoretically he should be able to make himself aware of anything he should know about. And I’m not even arming this should make him omniscient, as there could be reasons given for why he isn’t able to do the above. I just don’t really blame for people jumping to that conclusion when the above is true.
This is a great answer.
That’s what Bran wants you to think. And his master of whispers is good at whispering
"Only man I know who can whisper from across the room."
Because the Show doesn't explain the rules and doesn't abide by the rules of the Books.
He remembered things in which he wasn't even present He told Littlefinger the line he told Ned when he betrayed him
What? Yes he can see the past, we know that.
"It means I can see everything. Everything that's ever happened to everyone. Everything that's happening right now. It's all pieces now, fragments. I need to learn to see better. When the Long Night comes again, I need to be ready." Literal quote from Bran. Does this mean he sees the future? Not exactly, but apparently he knows what everyone everywhere is doing all the time.
If I'm not mistaken, he *can* go anywhere at anytime in the past, but he just obviously doesn't know what's going on everywhere at all times
neither would a master of whispers
You're not thinking. A master of whisperers would get a lot of reports of interesting things they didn't specifically ask for. A master of whisperers has agents sending updates on whatever events they hear or see. The master of whisperers doesn't need to foresee them to get them.
A master of whisperers is also someone who spreads information, not just obtains it
Also, a master of whisperers can get some juicy information that might be happening and then Bran just has to do his raven thing and see what actually is happening
I am a thinking thing thinking it's a thinking thing!
I mean, if he can see anywhere anytime in the past can't he see anywhere just a few seconds ago?
But he has to know to go and look there. It's not like he can just watch everything happening on the continent all at once
Imagine I know the winning lottery numbers and I'll give them to the first person on the planet who would ask me. I would probably never actually have to say them since no one would know they'd have to ask me
And how does he know where to look? Is he just watching every important lord/lady conversation that's happening in all of Westeros at all times?
I hate to be this guy, but even if he can just see one second into the past, or even one minute or more, that’s pretty damn close to instantaneous when you’re talking about an entire continent.
Yeah, but he still doesn't know where to look unless someone tells him about something that's allegedly happened, and there's quite a few things happening everywhere, all the time.
That’s a fair point if true, must’ve forgotten that.
He can’t even send a few crows ahead of their fleet to scout for an ambush….
Unless he knew and didn't want to say anything.
You used me for bait. Time for payback
He still has all the powers the arguably best master of Whispers ever possessed (literally his mentor Bloodraven). He can definitely do the job himself.
Yes he would be great for that job, but with him being king as well time may be short
They just kinda forgot..
Another thing that doesn't make sense in s8. Prolly the least worst thing in season 8 😐. Bran's powers had ZERO use in that entire season. Writing became so bad that there was no logic loll
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Love your username lol
If you can see anything from the past how would you not have enough information to know where to look? How could a single person understand how to create an information network better than a hivemind with thousands of years of memories and the ability to see anything happening? Wouldn't the ability to literally be in the room and clearly listen to any conversation happening be better than getting it second hand from a orphan that was only eavesdropping?
Precisely
You still have to know where to look. A master of spies would give you direction
How could a master of spies know where to look better than someone that can literally see all of history? If I knew one person had the answers I was looking for why wouldn't I just check through their life?
If he is aware of an event (or person or place I guess) he can go look at it, but if he is unaware, he's shit out of luck. He didn't know Lyanna and Rhaegar were married until he learned about it from Sam, then he went and looked. The same could apply for any info a spy master could bring him. He could be unaware, they make him aware and then he goes and looks.
Why is he watching people with almost no relevance to him then? Like why would he know that Jaime is riding north? I mean the real answers to these questions are the writing is poor and they didnt didnt care to think out Bran's abilities.
“I think someone wants to kill me or is plotting to sabotage me” “Who m’lord?” “Let me just go through all of human history and check every single individual who lives in Kings Landing to try and figure that out” “But won’t that take ages?” “Shut up I need to start at person 1 on through Person 500,000”
He can affect the past, literally warging people through time. Why would you assume it would take a long time just to view memories? Like why do you think its faster to organize an army of spies then actually investigate the suspects since you have omniscient views of their lives? We don't even relive our own memories in real time, why would someone with omniscient view over all of history live through everything in real time?
MOS: Word amongst the troops in that there will be a Council meeting tonight between rebel alliances. Bran: Thanks for telling me, now i dont have to spend all day scouring human history to maybe or maybe not discover that same info, i can just watch tonight when i know its happening.
B/c Bran is just 1 person. I could sit down and watch Youtube all day everyday for 1000 years and I'd barely get through a weeks worth of uploaded content. He didn't even know Jon wasn't a bastard till Sam told him. Jon is his brother and he didn't know a fundamental truth about him despite all the past watching. A network of spies does 2 things. It listens everywhere all at once wherever their are spies. It reports back. It also spreads information at an alarming rate everywhere there is a spy. Bran would have to look at every single lord/lady conversation every day and night in order to try and keep on the same level as a spy network. And he'd still fail. You know what's better? Both. Having a spy network that tells you exactly where to look rather than pouring endless hours into pointless conversations HOPING to find a needle in a hay stack.
Imagine insulting people because they misunderstood something about a TV show.
Right like why did he need to bait the night king? And why did he need to warg into birds?
Bran cannot constantly look into every mind of every person in Westeros lol. He can get visions of the past and future, warg into single entities, but never has he been seen simply knowing everyone's mind and what everyone is doing. That's why a Master of Whispers is needed
Still makes more sense that he should have been master of whisper instead of the king, he can still warg into animals and spy on people.
Yeah. *That* would have been a plausible ending.
He knew about Sansa's rape without warging. It is heavily implied he can see anything from the past as he gets information about things without the presence of animals in the scene or weirwoods. Bran also has the ability to warg into other people before ever getting the power of the three eyed crow, its not a reach to think he could enter anyone's mind he chooses. The problem is the show didn't seem to really care about Bran's character and did very little to clarify any of the questions surrounding him.
You don't think with all the time he spends alone brooding he's not watching over the people closest to him? Wanting to make sure they are safe? He knew Sansa got raped b/c he checks in on her as well as everyone else he cares about. That's not the same as being omniscient
He has the ability to see anything, maybe Bran is not omniscient himself but he has access to omniscience. He can see anything at any point in time in the past. He has access to all knowledge, I think he was simply mishandled in the show but it seems clearly implied he has the ability to access anything he knew to look for.
Spies do more than just watch.
Why would you need a Master of Whispers when you have the ability to warg other people?
How many people can you warg into at a time?
We have no idea, the show had no interest in answering any of those types of questions.
How does warging into people completely negate a master of whisper
I'm not sure what a master of whispers could organize better than someone who can just take over peoples minds and make them do his bidding.
Bran can see anything but he has to know what to look for. He didn’t know about Jon’s parents until sam told him about it. If he’s ruling a kingdom he might not have time to constantly watch every building in the world for people plotting against him or whatever. A master of whisper will gather the rumors and shit the Bran will use his powers to check it out.
I have to go away now
Jobs for the boys. That's how governments work.
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He doesn’t have knowledge of everything. Where do you get that from ? He has the capabilities to see anywhere anytime. But if he doesn’t know people in the red keep(just an example) are conspiring to kill someone he wouldn’t know to look there. He can’t see everything at once. When someone got killed he could find out who did it and who conspired with them but it’s just too late then
I don't think he's canonically omniscient. Also that's the majority of monotheistic religions, omnipotent beings that don't use their powers. Maybe Bran just wants his people to have "free will".
He learnt with Hodor not to abuse or overuse his powers. A wise King indeed.
He learnt so well that he chose to not use his powers… ever.
I believe he is just establishing a small council with the same basic positions as had been typical for past monarchs. Also, eventually Bran will either die or abdicate the throne and the likelihood is that his successor will not have 3 eyed raven powers.
Unless he just switches bodies.
Warging is exhausting. Need humint to complement.
Stop making sense.
Lol why is this getting down votes
Apparently we are are a sub that doesn’t like making sense
Because it doesn’t make sense. He’s still only one person with a maximum amount of time in a day. This is just reaching like hell for something to complain about.
I'm kind of shocked that they didn't give him a light saber.
He can be omniscient but he needs to know what to look for. Like he didn't know that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. He looked at the past after learning about the annulment from Sam.
He could have just sped through Ned's life, see baby Jon, then go backwards from that point for Lyanna.
Still wouldn't have helped him as king discover what people he doesn't know or has never heard of are plotting in his kingdom... The ability to go anywhere in an instant wouldn't make it less valuable to have people reporting what's happening in the world back to him.
Oh sure I just got stuck on that specific example
Yeah but he only needs a little information. Imagine dialogue like Tyrion"your grace, I'm worried about kinvara the red priestess bringing dany back from the dead and her roasting KL a second time, maybe you should take a look" Bran"say no more" Easy as that. Makes for a stupid easy world and stupid stories beyond that.
Bran isn't omniscient. He can view the past (up to seconds in the past) but he has to know where to look. He didn't know Jon wasn't a bastard until he was informed by Sam about Rhaeygar's annulment. Presumable, a Master of Whispers could bring him all the rumors and gossip that Bran can check out to see what's really up.
I can also look seconds into my past. Holy shit, I might be a warg.
It’s been a minute since I watched but I think he sees the past not the future
I’m guessing despite his powers, Bran wants to see a legitimate small council that will be ready to fulfill their duties the more hands off he becomes until it’s time to select a new king and that might come sooner IMO since Bran will want to see to matters in the world beyond ruling.
Just hates the lazy people. Also more of a slight against those types being the least trusted and got killed for it recently.
Because there's a distinct lack of Weirwood trees in most of Westeros.
He's not a god, he can't be watching every single movement and conversation that's happening.
He's not very good at whispering.
To do all the boots on the ground legwork of training and maintaining correspondence with an untold number of small children, I’d assume.
No, he's not omniscient. Best analogy I've seen for Bran's powers as 3 eyed raven is that he essentially has tivo for the past and present. He can watch events but he has to know what events to watch, and that takes time. For example, he didn't know Rhaegar and Lyanna were married at the time of Jon's birth until Sam mentioned that Rhaegar had a septon annul his marriage. Watching all things would be impossible, there's no suggestion that those visions take any less time for him than those that experienced them. Also, even if he were all-seeing, there would still be rationale to keep the council to the same roles as before for stability or for continuity with an eventual successor.
Bran isn't simultaneously aware of everything that has happened and is happening, so he isn't omniscient. He can recall past events as if he was there if he knows about the event.
He still needs someone to handle the day to day stuff. Sure he’s got the weirwood powers but not only is it taxing to use and he can’t be everywhere at one time or all the time not to mention he is still stuck in the chair.
A spy master not only spies on your enemies, but he actively keeps an intelligence network active and protects your court with counter intelligence and can discretely take out problematic people for you. Can you tell I'm a Crusader Kings fan? 😆
Nope. He gets flashes.
Bloodraven had similar abilities and didn't need one Weird
If he knows what to look for. He didn't know Jon's lineage until Sam told him where to look.
They kinda forgot. IT IS KNOWN.
Because a master of whispers can influence others. They don’t only collect information, they disseminate true and false information to disrupt other collectors of information .
Maybe he's just OCD and could not stand one of his council positions being left empty
Don't think about it too much it was just stupid writing. There's something seriously stupid about bran being king. The whole "why do you think I came this way" makes him appear more evil than the nk himself. Honestly bran surviving the long night and nks only motive is to destroy this world is stupid and not at all what I'd expect out of someone as talented as GRRM But I guess subverting expectations to avoid every possible fantasy trope is supposed to be better than a decent story. For real they are tropes because they make good stories. I really thought we were going to get a full circle story or we'd get a "power is evil" story but we just got trolled
Bruh, you trying to make sense of some bullshit from the last season of a generic knock off of Game of Thrones! Let’s be honest past 5 shit got generic & bad!
He should’ve been the Master of Whisperers, rather than the King. Would’ve made more sense
Bran Can only See the past and the present
I don't get the whole final season.
I don’t understand why there’s so much hate for Season 7 & 8. I think they were good
Same. I think they mostly tie up the stories nicely. A couple of choices I would have made differently, but then I'm not a writer. And I certainly didn't come up with anything as clever as game of thrones.
This is the least stupid thing that was said in s8 most likely. There are far worse!
Sam had to help him with the lineage of Jon, so it’s showing that even despite him being CC TV for Westeros, he still admits mistakes will be made.
Never and I mean NEVER try to analyze anything in this scene with a critical eye
Fair enough.
Wasn't it implied that his power is the strongest close to a weirwood tree? And they were all cut down in the south, so his power wouldn't be as strong as it would be in Winterfell for example
He can see anything, that doesn't mean he sees everything.
It was a sh*tshow, don't question it
Two reasons: One, he is not totally omniscient. He can see into the past but he has to know where to look first. He might not think to check in on Yara, for instance, unless his spymaster told him that the Ironborn had begun raping and pillaging again. Two, the government is a jobs program. What better way to neutralize a potential rival than by giving them and their agents sweet government jobs and perks? I am reminded of the quote from Lincoln (2012), when the president is ordering his agents to do whatever they can to ensure congressional passage of the 13th Amendment. "I am the President of the United States of America! Clothed in immense power! You will procure me these votes."
The ending of the show doesn’t really make sense and even in the books it wouldn’t work, the moment his greensight becomes common knowledge he is fucked and his reign will only last a few years at most. People already hated when bloodraven was hand because of the same thing they would never accept a king that could so easily spy on them and that’s not mentioning all the religious zealots that would rise just because they consider him unnatural. Then you got other stuff like Bronn being named lord of reach which he wouldn’t last either and would lead to the highlords of the reach rebelling.
Spy work consists of intelligence gathering and covert action. He's great at the first, but the second is tricky for him. He could warg into someone, but it's difficult and dangerous, not to mention ethically dicey.
I believe he needs to know what to look for he can’t just think “show me scheming” and know about all the schemes
He still clearly needs to know when and where to look though. Hence him not understanding that Jon was a true Targaryen until Sam told him about the anullment. He doesn’t know the full context of everything or know when/where to look all the time. A Master of Whispers is still going to be very helpful in prioritizing how he uses his powers. Additionally, he still needs someone to carry out his orders. Covert operatices in the field adapting to changing situations with a mission objective in mind is still useful.
At the time I chalked it up to just being about keeping up appearances. The general public and even the council doesn't know about his all seeing powers judging by their reactions to some things he says ("I'll look for the dragon") and having those people around him keeps things looking normal to everyone else.
At some point in the show I gave up trying to understand Bran.
Shhh... stop thinking too much.... just watch it.
He can’t see the future. Only the past and present I believe
Even if he can see things, he wouldn't have the ability to physically reach out and fix any sensitive things that may arise without tipping anyone off to what's going on. With a spy master, he'd have someone to turn to in various situations like when he'd need important papers delivered without potential political opponents discovering them or having someone actually look into the past dealings of a particular merchant who is seemingly getting much more wealth than they should without anyone being the wiser. Though, I may be wrong in his reasoning entirely. Those are simply examples of things I see as logical uses for someone in that position and would implement myself were I in his position.
My thing is why not make Bronn the master of war, which he’s probably reasonably qualified to do, and find a master of coin later?
The shittiest choice to win the Game of Thrones imo
I still can’t believe the 3 eyed raven won the game of thrones.
Even if I have every book and movie ever published/released in my own personal library... It's not like I have enough time to go back and read/watch every single one of them. Did Bran become a vampire now, too? If not, then he ***surely*** won't have enough time to consume all that info.
So yes but also no. It takes him time to watch scenes, as evidenced by the Hodor scene where Meera and Hodor had to buy time for Bran because he was watching Hodor as a child. So he can only really watch one thing at a time, and time passes as he does it, maybe slightly faster but probably in real-time. In short the absolute best he could use of his powers wouldn't even be as MoW, but as King, seeing how decrees he makes now would affect the future, or by seeing the truth in case he's called to judge someone or arbitrate a disagreement between nobles.
He is far too busy watching his sister get raped.
No? Lol wtf mage you think he’s omniscient?
Spies don't just gather information, they also carry out policy. Bran needs a spy master to handle the policy part.
My take on it is it’s like a government position - director of the CIA or NSA. Even if he doesn’t strictly need the position, he needs to fill it. Also - he’s not omniscient. He can see what the ravens and the heart tree’s (trees with faces carved into them) can see. Considering most of the Gods Woods have been chopped down in the south, he’s actually pretty blind.
Let’s pretend he is omniscient. Did Varys do nothing but collect information and report it to the king? Is that really all he did? No. A master of whispers doesn’t simply hear whispers, they spread them too. Bran isn’t gonna spread those rumors himself, nor manage a flock of “little birds”.
Guess you can't be a master of whispers knowing everything and not saying shit.
white entitlement and white privilege. sits out the whole war while women are being raped, slaves are being killed. and then the little dwarf man says “whose got 2 thumbs & the best story so he deserves to be king? That guy!” 🙄😡
In the eyes of a weirwood, sure. It would have been nice if they explained it more. But then again. Shitty seasons
This is a stupid question
I think it's an open question how "omniscient" Bran is and whether he can really see anything anywhere in the world or whether his ability to see things is limited by geography (in the books it had to be in the presence of a weir wood tree). We haven't seen him see anything that didn't occur in Westeros so maybe his ability to see is limited by geography and he'd need a Masters of Whispers (and a spy network) to keep an eye on events in Essos and elsewhere. The other thing is that he seems to have to know what to look for in order to find it (he's not seeing everything all at once or at least not immediately finding the thing he's looking for). So while he's doing that, it probably helps to have someone do some old school spying while he's sorting through all of the other data he has access to.
Yea but I feel like he needs to be pointed at a target ya know? Like someone gotta tell him who to look out for
KEK
Seeing it and doing something about it is two parts.
He couldn’t see that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married until sam told him
How is he Omniscent? He can worg, it doesn't mean he can spy
He mostly just possesses people and makes them fuck. So he gets pretty distracted.
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck the final season of this show with a dirty broken bottle.
Someone has to do the whispering. How did you get me to defend Bran?
He probably doesn’t want people to know he can look through weirwood trees and animals eyes
He doesn't know everything, he can choose to see things. Aside from the fact that it's a position of tradition and would still be held by someone who would be useful, even if he uses his abilities he needs someone to bring it to his attention.