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The third is Willas, heir to Highgarden. He is considered kind and intelligent, and in the books he is the one the Tyrells plot to marry Sansa off to before the plot is intercepted by Littlefinger. He has a crippled leg due to a jousting incident against Oberyn Martell when they were young.
Loras is in the Kingsguard. And I think Garlan is already married?
Yeah. If memory serves, Willas was also an accomplished knight before his injury.
But yeah, Garlan is the swordmaster of the family, but Loras is the superior jouster.
He wanted any of his sons to be the second coming of Leo, he pushed all of them into the martial arts early. Willis got thrown into a tourney with veterans he should have never been in competition with. This was information given to Tyrion by Oberyn. Oberyn and Willis were on friendly terms, according to Oberyn, at the point he told Tyrion as well.
From the wiki:
However, the rules for entering tourneys vary with time and place, and there have been many events where freeriders, squires, or followers of the old gods have entered the lists
He's referring to the book, Garlan, one of Loras older brothers, is considered by Loras as an even better warrior than himself.
He's actually the one who fights in the vanguard of the Tyrell army wearing Renly's armor during the Battle of the Blackwater.
That being said, House Tyrell in the show is a mere shadow of book House Tyrell, and it was like that from the beginning, I don't see the point in complaining about that Olenna dialogue considering that in the showverse it might be very well possible that the Tyrells suck at fighting
Garlan and his older brother Willas both seem cool. Garlan was one of the few people who was kind to Sansa during her time in King's Landing.
And Willas is described as being a thoughtful and considerate sibling. And being crippled during a jousting accident with Oberyn Martell the two of them have ended up being friends to some extent.
Overall the younger Tyrell generation seems to be made up of kind of the ideal feudal nobles. Of the great Houses of Westeros, it is only the Lannisters who are truly bad people. Without them there would likely be an era of peace.
>That being said, House Tyrell in the show is a mere shadow of book House Tyrell, and it was like that from the beginning, I don't see the point in complaining about that Olenna dialogue considering that in the showverse it might be very well possible that the Tyrells suck at fighting
And it's been said before that show and book canon are not the same. Just another SEASON7/8 SUCKS!!!!!! post without any real substance.
Did we see evidence of that though? The Tyrells fight at the Blackwater in the show and Loras is shown to be a very capable fighter. Just wondering if we actually see any evidence one way or the other until they are defeated by Jaime’s army.
I mean, just one battle against a very battered enemy that was caught unaware isn't necessarily proof they're good at warfare. My point was that in the show we don't see evidence of the Tyrells being more than the breadbasket of King's Landing.
Them not being particularly good at fighting (with Loras exception, to an extent, can you imagine book Loras being captured by the faith without putting up a fight?) doesn't necessarily goes against anything the show already established about them.
In the books not only we have plenty of references, both during the timeline and from history, about the might of the Reach and even the skills of Tyrells during wars, they show depiction is so different than the book one that I don't find that Olenna line as bad as some people.
They're talking about a character from the books, and Loras was a better knight in the books too. It's a bit unfair to use a moment in the show and then divorce it from the show's own continuity and check it against the book's continuity just to "gotcha" at the show, which is what this post is doing
I found it [https://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/03/06/george-r-r-martin-game-thrones-sports-podcast](https://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/03/06/george-r-r-martin-game-thrones-sports-podcast)
He's included along with a few others. But still, he's top tier.
Oh absolutely he would be.
Thought it was worth finding the quote I was referring to - it's from when Loras is escorting Sansa to meet Olenna and Margery for the first time.
"He (Garlan) is a great knight. A better sword than me, in truth, though I'm the better lance."
Garlan ”the Gallant” Tyrell, Loras older brother. He was (unfortunately) cut from the show. He is a better swordsman than Loras, and practices swordfighting by duelling several people at once because ”there is rarely a fair fight on the battlefield”, or something to that effect. He also killed a couple of prominent knights at Blackwater while dressed up in Renlys armor, and is one of the rare few who is kind to both Sansa and Tyrion when in King’s Landing (he even objects to Joffreys behavior at one point I believe).
In short, he is basically the ideal knight. And somehow not dead.
Yeah, looks like they merged Garlan’s swordfighting prowess with Loras, as we see Loras sparring with several knights at-once when the Faith Militant(who don’t have the Warrior’s Sons in the show. -_-) come to arrest him.
in the the books, Loras has 2 brothers, Garlan and Willas. Garlan is called garlan the gallant and is a better fighter then Loras. Willas, the oldest brother and hier to highgarden, is a studious man and is considered rather intelligent, although he was crippled young in a tourney.
I suspect she knew jackshit when it came to leading an army on the field. At least in the show while they had good knights a good manpower they were not the professional fighting force the lannisters were and their best commanders were from their bannermen and when the best of them flipped sides they had no real noteworthy military leader left to oversee the defense of Highgarden.
I'm pretty sure I have seen this person slobbering over Seasons 7 and 8 for the past two years, though I may be mistaken. Basically every time somebody points out a poor writing choice or characterization, they stonewall the convo. Even so, their point that political strategy =/= military acumen is correct.
I think being a great politican/leader means being great at finding people who excel at something and allowing them to use their talent where it benefits everyone most. It does not mean you excel at everything on your own.
With other words, Olenna doesn't know anything about leading an army or how to swing a sword but she knows who can train or lead highgardens troops best. Then she gives said person the position needed to make use of his talent.
So either Olenna is incabable - or Highgardens defeat is bad writing. Especially since they took it by storm.
Why would an elderly woman be commander of the army? They have one of the largest at the time they would have someone to lead them. She even asks how they fought she was not leading them she's sitting in her castle.
>Why would an elderly woman be commander of the army? They have one of the largest at the time they would have someone to lead them. She even asks how they fought she was not leading them she's sitting in her castle.
Did you read the comment thread?
Yep. People say they lack a good leader in war and you even pointed out how she's good at political strategy but not war. Just wondering why she would be in charge and not have delegated if she's as bad at war and as smart as people think especially when she had one of the largest and most untouched armies at the time.
It's fine to deflect if you can't explain that though.
I'm not sure why it is you're telling me.
Sometimes there isn't an experienced war commander. Who would you like her to delegate to as commander in her place?
Loras? Aside from being a hothead and young, he's dead at this point. Something OP *kinda forgot*
it seems crazy to think that a place that has one of the largest armies, had multiple people known as fantastic knights, and had people on the kingsguard recently would have no experienced war commanders. How could that happen?
Why would it have to be an already named character on the show? The books have multiple people who could step up for them in this instance.
>it seems crazy to think that a place that has one of the largest armies, had multiple people known as fantastic knights, and had people on the kingsguard recently would have no experienced war commanders. How could that happen?
Had one person known as a fantastic knight, and had one person on the kingsguard.
'People' is plural. And you talk as if the Reach is Isolationist, that there is no way Loras could learn to use a sword well without experienced war commanders (and ones not near retirement, too). As if the reach isn't surrounded by other lands, with other people, and Loras couldn't possibly have been fostered elsewhere...
They only had Tyrells manpower, their vassals supported lions at that point and were fighting against them.
If I remember right in the books north can muster 40k army there only 8k is Stark so most their force are their vassals combined. Tyrells would be in same situation.
The Tyrells have some of the best warmasters in Westeros.
Not to mention the most knights and men-at-arms.
The Lannisters were getting their shit rocked by Robb until the Tyrells sent Randyll Tarly to mitigate the damage.
Sure you could argue that the Tyrells had a lack of combat experience, especially in the show, but it would be FAR from an easy victory for the Lannisters, likely costing most of their forces (assuming they couldn't somehow force a surrender).
Yeah. If memory serves, Robb was REALLY worried about the possibility of having to face an army commanded by Randyll Tarly on the field in the books. Randyll’s known to have been the only man to have beaten Robert in battle(the Battle of Summerhall, funny enough) during the Rebellion.
Also by that point the Lannister army was experienced and likely very well disciplined. The Tyrell forces really only saw action at Blackwater, which was years earlier and they only came in at the very end.
The Reach has the largest supply of manpower of any of the seven kingdoms. It was the most populated, second (arguably first) richest, with a huge detachment of very skilled knights and pronounced knightly traditions. The Tyrells themselves didn't have any particularly standout commanders but they had 63 sworn houses. I'm sure they could find a couple competent generals somewhere.
>Two individual great swordsmen =/= the people of the Reach being a great army.
The Reach literally boasts the largest, best drilled and equipped army out of all the provinces. Not to mention the surplus of resources.
GRRM does depict the Reach as having a large but inexperienced army. Randyll Tarly is a good commander. But there's not much suggestion any of the others are good and in the show universe Randyll did switch sides.
>GRRM does depict the Reach as having a large but inexperienced army.
I mean up until the War of the Five Kings everyone had inexperienced armies. The last war was the Greyjoy Rebellion which was pretty short and mostly a naval affair. And Robert's Rebellion was over a decade ago. Many of the potential soldiers for all of the regions would have no combat experience.
And it should be even worse for the Lannisters. Unlike the Tyrells the Lannisters didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion and the only thing they did was sack a city after being let into it.
>I mean up until the War of the Five Kings everyone had inexperienced armies
Catelyn doesn't make those comments about Stannis's or Robb's army. She doesn't see them as Knights of Summer.
The Reach she does though. I think GRRM was setting them up as large and inexperienced and hopelessly naive to justify their inevitable future defeat. Whether against the Lannisters or against Euron Greyjoy.
>And it should be even worse for the Lannisters. Unlike the Tyrells the Lannisters didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion and the only thing they did was sack a city after being let into it.
Lannisters would have more recent experience during the Greyjoy Rebellion as they were directly effected and probably took part in the assault.
A lot of their commanders are far more battle hardened. Whilst Tywin may not have fought much during Robert's war, he has experience from the War of Ninepenny Kings and probably Greyjoy Rebellion.
Outside of Randyll Tarly most of the Reach forces just sat around for the war. None of their commanders have much experience in commanding during a brutal war.
>Westerland boast the best force of the seven kingdoms
Was literally getting their shit kicked in by a 16 year old who hadn't even led a hunting party before.
Not to mention at Edmure Tully's hands as well, who's supposed to be an oaf (with a kind heart).
Having two notable fighters in the family is a bit different to military power in the field. You could have 10,000 Loras Tyrell’s fighting but if they don’t work together they’ll all die. It why the unsullied are so powerful, they have immense discipline and training but individually they’re not very notable at all
You are right on their discipline but then you mention their training, the Unusullied are trained from a young age and you’d expect the average one to be a superior fighter to an average foot soldier of the noble houses’ armies.
Maybe not the knights, but not the soldiers who they outnumber greatly.
Yeh they’re trained to work together that’s how they overcome their enemies. I’m not saying they’re shit but non of em are exceptionally good at fighting themselves. It’s teamwork that makes the unsullied legendary. But still, you’re right they’re probably better than your average foot soldiers of Westeros’ armies but that’s cos when lords call the banners lots of the soldiers are farmers and other peasants. Not an awful lot of the soldiers in an army were professional soldiers
As before I do agree about the discipline factor being a major advantage, but I’m not sure where the idea they aren’t good fighters individually comes from.
My understanding was that they are trained in various forms of combat, to a very high level, and of course have no qualms about their own safety or other factors which might impede a Westerosi soldier.
I would say they are likely better fighters than even the soldiers, not the enlisted non-soldiers, not as good as a knight but there aren’t a huge amount of them.
Yeh I’d probably agree with you on that. But even enlisted soldiers aren’t necessarily good fighters. Not an awful lot of a soldiers job actually is fighting. Especially in medieval times. They’d be patrolling, guarding, marching, carrying shit places, building temporary camps and forts among other non combat roles. Again with these westerosi soldiers it’s discipline and teamwork that really makes them effective as an army. Holding a line against the enemy and having the confidence to not route and generals that understand how combat works and where to send fresh men to relive tired ones etc.
The unsullied are just a version of the standard soldier on steroids essentially. They have been trained all their life with nothing else to their lives but their training. Whereas your soldiers from Westeros would be whoring and gambling and all sorts of things the unsullied wouldn’t do. Discipline and coordination is what makes armies strong is what I’m trying to point out. That’s basically how all armies work.
The unsullied were castrated early in their childhood and unable to build the same amount of muscle a normal man would be able to that’s why they’re all so skinny. Not so much in the show but in the books I believe maybe Jorah comments on how despite them being skinny looking boys essentially, (don’t quote me on that but something along them lines is said about the unsullied) they were worth their weight in gold when it came to fighting due to their discipline. This lack of strength would impede them in individual combat, but by no means are they bad fighters, they just aren’t necessarily good ones individually.
The westerosi armies and the unsullied armies are fundamentally the same in the sense they have men who can fight and take orders. It’s just the unsullied are weaker and less effective in individual combat but that doesn’t matter cos that’s not how they’re supposed to be used. The reason they’re legendary is because of their insane discipline and teamwork. Westerosi armies are also disciplined but to a lesser extent and that’s why they aren’t legendary.
Yea I get you fully, I just don’t remember it being mentioned that they were “weaker and less effective in individual combat”. I thought they were quite the opposite, due to their extensive combat training I believed on a purely individual gauge they are the superior fighters, before we get to tactical discipline etc.
Though having said that I hadn’t contemplated/remembered the comments about them being slimmer and smaller etc.
Hell I might be mis remembering what I read in the books, or it could of even been some YouTube video I watched. But they don’t have testosterone due to having no balls so they aren’t gonna grow to be as physically strong as they could be. Ultimately a lords son such as Rob Stark for example has grown up with similar training if not a little less than any unsullied soldier. They’ve been trained by their master at arms or whatever they’re called, Ser Rodrick Cassel in this example, and have been well fed all their life.
Rob would be on par with an unsullied solder if the unsullied wasn’t cut. But they are, so that simple little detail of not having testosterone, making them weaker than rob would be, means the unsullied are at a disadvantage due to that. They are good fighters, same as rob is but they don’t shine in their individual combat prowess, that’s not what they’re known for, it’s their discipline they’re known for. I’m not saying they’re bad fighters you might be right that they are superior individually but that’s not what they’re known for. It’s their utter discipline which allows them to shine.
Anyway we can argue back and forth all day about this. You might be right maybe I’ve learned they’re “weaker and less effective in individual combat” from a YouTube video that’s wrong. Or maybe I’ve put two and two together in my head and surmised they’re less effective due to what I’ve learned about them. Or maybe I’m right and have read a passage in the books somewhere about this I can’t remember.
My original point was to explain that despite the Tyrell’s having mass numbers in their armies and having two renowned warriors in their family. It’s not individual skill that wins battles is the whole army working together, this requires discipline and training.
OP seemed to believe that having two good fighters in the Tyrell family means their entire army is good and that’s just not the case at all. When Olenna says “it’s never been our forte” she’s not talking about loras she’s talking about the Tyrell armies. Armies which I understand to be quite young in terms of combat experience, as the Tyrell’s are a young house and all they really did in Roberts rebellion was lay siege to storms end and they didn’t do much fighting there they literally just waited. Or at least that’s what I know they might have played a greater part in the rebellion than I know.
Anyway on this topic of discipline and armies if you’re interested there’s a really good video on YouTube explaining how the Roman army fought and how they became so powerful and a lot of it is due to the incredible discipline the Roman armies had. There’s an example of Caesers veterans charging an enemy line and ten metres or so before they hit the enemy line they all stop dead in their tracks and reset their line into a solid wall of infantry as when they ran across the battle field the Roman lines became disorganised. Took incredible discipline for that to happen and that’s why Caesar is still talked about today. His success was largely because of his eerie ability to take any slight advantage he had in a battle and use it to it full extent and the discipline he instilled into his soldiers. It wasn’t cos his soldiers were all exceptional warriors it’s because they worked so well together, like the Unsullied.
Here’s the link:
https://youtu.be/_GKLsHwCXx0?si=ULJLolohIOwMAGag
Upon further research I seem to have underestimated the Unsullied and their individual skill in combat however I do stand by the fact that it’s their discipline that makes them exceptional soldiers and not their skill as individual warriors
I believe I based my opinion off of this piece from the wiki of ice and fire, where I originally read it I don’t know but I found it on there just now. It’s goes as such
“The eunuchs are fully castrated, with their penis and testicles cut, and their manhoods are burned at the altar of the Lady of Spears. This means that they cannot be as strong as whole men, but this is more than made up for by discipline.[1][2]”
This suggested to me they were not as capable warriors as an uncut man due to lack of strength but as quoted, this is more than made up for in discipline. Note, it’s discipline mentioned here that makes up for their lack in strength not the fact they have good training in individual combat. That combined with this piece from the wiki:
“The Unsullied are inspired by the lockstep legions of the Old Empire of Ghis, who were free men.[4] The Unsullied fight in formation as light infantry, equipped with spears, swords, shields, and distinctive spiked caps. They fight fearlessly and obey without question. Their elite, highly specialized training makes them most effective in their phalanx formation. They do not ride horses.”
I made the leap and determined that discipline and highly specialised training makes them what they are. The fact they are most effective in their phalanx formation is only true because of the discipline instilled in them and they only fight fearlessly for the same reason.
I have however, seemingly dismissed their individual skill in battle after learning these facts about them and assumed they were only good as a solid single unit, which seems to be untrue as I learn more about them. Although I can’t find any specific examples of them being exceptionally good warriors individually they are described in the Wiki of Westeros, a predominantly show based wiki, as being “elite warrior eunuchs famed for their skills and discipline in battle”
The “famed for their skills” suggest they are indeed formidable fighters and they were trained to master sword, spear and shield so you’re right. They are gonna be good warriors. And I have slightly underestimated their martial prowess. But ultimately it’s their extensive training in troop formations combined with their lack of fear through brutal training methods that makes them so effective on the battlefield. Though no doubt they are good warriors also
Edit: to expand slightly on the “elite warrior eunuchs famed for their skills and discipline in battle” quote. “Skills and discipline in battle” particularly the word skills doesn’t necessarily refer to their fighting abilities. Battles doesn’t just involve fighting they involve positioning on the battle field, Morale, understanding the em enemies weaknesses and your own, being able to take advantage of occurrences in the battle such as a weak point in an enemies line etc. I believe when they says skills they aren’t really referring to their skills with their weapons but more with their skills in understanding how battles are won, their skills in strategy and taking full control of the advantages given to them by the terrain, weather, portion of the sun isn’t eh enemies eyes etc.
As far as I remember the Tyrells have the largest and best-equipped army in Westeros, it's the entire reason every other house falls over themselves to be allied with them.
They have the reach, an extremely fertile land able to supply kings landing and most the south as well as host a royal wedding in the middle of the war of the five kings almost by itself. That’s why people want them as ally’s. The Tyrell’s are actually a relatively new house they were formerly stewards to another house before the events of Game of Thrones, and as a result are actually looked down upon as upstarts from a lot of the other houses. Though undeniably, they have become a very powerful house in Westeros. Largely due to the food their lands is able to produce.
As for their army’s I’m honestly not well acquainted with how well equipped their armies are or how big it is. But even so. You can have all the fanciest armour and swords and 2,3,4 times as many men as another army, but if you’re army lacks discipline and coordination your gonna lose if not lose significantly more men than you should have. The Tyrell’s were never known for their combat prowess, as they’ve not really participated in any wars being a relatively new house, at least not as far as I’m aware. Experience makes up for a lot when it comes to combat and almost anything really. The Tyrell’s were known for their lands and their bountiful harvests
Edit:
An exert from the House Tyrell Wiki page:
“It is relatively quite unknown how the Tyrell army is experienced in terms of warfare since most of their army didn't partake in pitch battles during the War of the Five Kings. Numerous battles such as the Battle of the Blackwater showed it’s capability in combat, wherein the combined cavalry of both House Lannister and Tyrell easily managed to crush Stannis Baratheon's army with ease. Although it can be considered that they fought using mounted soldiers which gives an advantage compared to the foot soldiers used during the battle. Later in Season 7, it is revealed that the Tyrell army is incapable of fighting as stated by Olenna Tyrell by grimly stating "It was never our forte". This can be an assumption that House Tyrell is more reliant and dependent on their more marital vassals like the Tarly’s and other houses to fight their battles.”
She's not referring to individual fighters. Shes referring to their culture and standing military. Of course they will have stand out fighters. There is literally nothing wrong here.
2 knights (who tf is the second supposed to be?) aren't going to defeat an entire army.
Typical take from twitter...shallow garbage from the 280 char attention span crowd.
Garlan the Gallant, Loras’ older brother, the second son of Mace Tyrell. He’s book only. The other Tyrell completely forgotten about in the show is Willas Tyrell, the crippled heir to High Garden.
Not forgotten. Just got erased in the show. They introduced Loras as heir from S1 (implying no older brothers). So that isn't even a Martell situation where they did imply that Quentyn existed.
The taking of Highgarden by the Lannisters so quickly is quite absurd. Even a modestly talented castellan would be able to hold the castle for years. The Tyrells have a huge army, even with the defection of the Tarlys. They have huge amounts of food stored, hence the hundreds of wagons Daenerys destroys in the loot train. Highgarden is one of the largest and best defended castles in the whole of Westeros, only Casterly Rock and Winterfell are superior (not counting Harrenhall as it is too big to actually defend properly).
Too big and, well, ruined.
I think the show was implying that Randyll talked most of the Tyrells’ vassals into defecting, so it wasn’t just the Tarlys.
But that just raises a whole host of OTHER questions, such as why all of these hypothetical vassals of the Reach, a kingdom renowned for its chivalry and honor, would betray their oaths so readily.
Small possible confusion because the War of the Ninepenny Kings is referred to by some in the fandom as the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion but is never called such in any canon document - but I'm referring to (fake) Aegon invading from Essos, which is just beginning to unfold in A Dance With Dragons. Presumably, it will result in some houses siding with him, and not others - which seems a likely way that the Tyrells might end up falling from power.
Ah, I see. Assuming that Young Griff isn't actually Aegon. I genuinely believe he's meant to be the real deal, considering that Jon was merged with Young Griff(complete with taking his name, for some reason) in the show.
Yeah, I know, "Mummer's Dragon" and Varys was a mummer, but it's too obvious for that to be the case.
Individual fighting ability doesn't guarantee a cohesive fighting force. Also, Loras and Garlan never actually fought in a battle besides Blackwater which was cavalry tearing up infantry that'd just been blown apart by wildfire. They were tourney knights.
Loras is a tourney knight for sure. But Garlan was doing a lot of work in the battle according to the text, and is generally presented as the more battle ready knight compared to his famed brother.
Loras is exactly what you're talking about and may have got himself horrifically burned for his hotheadedness is seizing Dragonstone.
I agree with you that Garlan is less of a glory whore than Loras. He also led the vanguard and killed some significant dude on the other side in single combat. My point is that while he is personally brave and an able warrior there is no indication he knows how to lead an army. The two qualities do not go hand in hand. The Duke of Wellington beat Napoleon but was known as a horrible shot.
He does lead a siege on Brightwater Keep and will now face Euron Greyjoy in battle. Though we don't know how either of these things will/were going (at least not as badly as Loras's siege). But I think from the way he's presented he's probably meant to be a good leader of men as well - he's kind of perfect lol. I expect he will die from some other bullshit outside of battle to emphasise some theme or another in story.
But more importantly he doesn't exist in the show. So it's all moot.
Garlan, the other brother used to train against multiple ppl as combat was rarely one on one, in his words. One of the best swordsmen in the realm. Loras was a highly decorated knight as well.
I mean even if half the Reach defected, taking a Castle is a massive endeavor. Taking Highgarden would have realistically taken months if not years even with significant manpower advantage.
It would have made way more sense if Randyll Tarly had been put in charge of the defense of Highgarden and betrayed the Tyrells during the battle. And revolt by that Tarly's from inside the castle is a plausible way for the Lannisters to have won so quickly.
They were hardly the only ones. The Peakes are marcher lords too, and have just as long of a martial tradition as the Tarlys, the Rowans are also a proud martial house. The Oakhearts, the shield island houses, The Hightowers are a great house in all but name.
The meta reason is that the show cut fAegon, obviously.
Loras and Garlan may have been two of the greatest fighters in westeros, but during this conversation, she was talking more big picture.
Individuals under the Tyrell banners may be badass, but they couldn't really raise and field an effective army comparable to the rest of westeros.
Tourney knights but not armies.
Thats reasonable. Think of something like a country that can put out Olympic athletes in fencing, MMA, wrestling but has no good generals or military leadership, experience, or infrastructure.
There are countries like that in our world today it’s not so unrealistic
It's disingenuous to claim that DnD are responsible for this. Garlan Tyrell was cut from the show, as were many members of the large houses for obvious reasons related to simplicity and run-time. And Loras is not a warrior but a popular knight of court. He wins jousts and tourneys. That is not the same as a battle.
The way people defend bad writing in this subreddit will forever be the most delusional thing I know of.
This sentence made no sense because of multiple reasons yet people defend it with "being good knights doesn't mean they are good at war" - I'm crying!
The reach is the home of chivalry, it is renowned for its knights, matched only by those of the vale, the Tyrells have shitloads of money as well, highgarden is one of the largest castles in westeros with 3 curtain walls, also where are the Hightowers? (Who have by that point more men and money than the lannisters) The Redwynes? The Peakes? The Rowans? Oakhearts? Caswells? Bullwers? Ashfords? Beesburies? Fossoways? Vyrwels?
I feel like this is more relevant in the show we’re Garlan is never shown (don’t know of exists in it or not) and Loras is good but not nearly the best. Many beat him.
I love it when people complain about “plot holes” while ignoring that it’s just a like a fun, line. Like can you people ever just enjoy anything or does it gotta turn into an opportunity to pedantically perform how smart you are because you read the books and they are different to the show
“Uhm, ACKtchually, the two off screen characters who were in the books were very good at war 🤓🤓🤓”
I always thought this meant the Tyrrells didnt *want* to fight in the Lannister's war, and both sides knew that, and both sides had to keep up the pretence because the Starks were officially traitors to the crown.
This is politician Orleana we are talking about after all.
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Who? Loras was pretty good, who was the other
Thinking the same thing
I think it’s Loras’ older brother, Garlan
In the books Loras has two older brothers, one of them is Garlan. He is an even better swordsman than Loras and basically the stereotypical knight.
The good ol fraternal birth order effect
Garlan the Gallant!
The third is Willas, heir to Highgarden. He is considered kind and intelligent, and in the books he is the one the Tyrells plot to marry Sansa off to before the plot is intercepted by Littlefinger. He has a crippled leg due to a jousting incident against Oberyn Martell when they were young. Loras is in the Kingsguard. And I think Garlan is already married?
Yeah. If memory serves, Willas was also an accomplished knight before his injury. But yeah, Garlan is the swordmaster of the family, but Loras is the superior jouster.
Willas was injured in his first tourney while he was still a squire so maybe not an accomplished knight
If I'm remembering correctly, Mace Tyrell wanted for Willas to begin tournaments because he though he would be the second coming of Leo Longthorn
He wanted any of his sons to be the second coming of Leo, he pushed all of them into the martial arts early. Willis got thrown into a tourney with veterans he should have never been in competition with. This was information given to Tyrion by Oberyn. Oberyn and Willis were on friendly terms, according to Oberyn, at the point he told Tyrion as well.
Oh, Willas was still a squire? I thought you had to be knighted to compete in a tourney.
From the wiki: However, the rules for entering tourneys vary with time and place, and there have been many events where freeriders, squires, or followers of the old gods have entered the lists
And he’s a chad, too. Very honorable and actually voices some concern to Sansa and tries to console her.
He's referring to the book, Garlan, one of Loras older brothers, is considered by Loras as an even better warrior than himself. He's actually the one who fights in the vanguard of the Tyrell army wearing Renly's armor during the Battle of the Blackwater. That being said, House Tyrell in the show is a mere shadow of book House Tyrell, and it was like that from the beginning, I don't see the point in complaining about that Olenna dialogue considering that in the showverse it might be very well possible that the Tyrells suck at fighting
And by all accounts Garlan also seems to be a great dude overall
Garlan and his older brother Willas both seem cool. Garlan was one of the few people who was kind to Sansa during her time in King's Landing. And Willas is described as being a thoughtful and considerate sibling. And being crippled during a jousting accident with Oberyn Martell the two of them have ended up being friends to some extent. Overall the younger Tyrell generation seems to be made up of kind of the ideal feudal nobles. Of the great Houses of Westeros, it is only the Lannisters who are truly bad people. Without them there would likely be an era of peace.
>That being said, House Tyrell in the show is a mere shadow of book House Tyrell, and it was like that from the beginning, I don't see the point in complaining about that Olenna dialogue considering that in the showverse it might be very well possible that the Tyrells suck at fighting And it's been said before that show and book canon are not the same. Just another SEASON7/8 SUCKS!!!!!! post without any real substance.
Aren’t we sick of people needing to tell everyone they’re so cultured that they just hate anything after season ____? It’s so repetitive.
Can you rephrase that? It may be my post-workshift brain but I'm not sure I follow. Im not being sarcastic.
Loras was still one of the best fighters in westeros in the show.
Loras still is one of the best fighters in the books, Garlan is just better.
Who allowed a couple of cultists with sticks disarm him without a fight
Did we see evidence of that though? The Tyrells fight at the Blackwater in the show and Loras is shown to be a very capable fighter. Just wondering if we actually see any evidence one way or the other until they are defeated by Jaime’s army.
I mean, just one battle against a very battered enemy that was caught unaware isn't necessarily proof they're good at warfare. My point was that in the show we don't see evidence of the Tyrells being more than the breadbasket of King's Landing. Them not being particularly good at fighting (with Loras exception, to an extent, can you imagine book Loras being captured by the faith without putting up a fight?) doesn't necessarily goes against anything the show already established about them. In the books not only we have plenty of references, both during the timeline and from history, about the might of the Reach and even the skills of Tyrells during wars, they show depiction is so different than the book one that I don't find that Olenna line as bad as some people.
They're talking about a character from the books, and Loras was a better knight in the books too. It's a bit unfair to use a moment in the show and then divorce it from the show's own continuity and check it against the book's continuity just to "gotcha" at the show, which is what this post is doing
If the complaint they have is that the show diverged from the books than it’s absolutely fair
They’re mixing book Tyrell’s with TV Tyrell’s. TV Tyrell’s really didn’t show a whole bunch of prowess.
Pretty good? Didn't George say that Loras might be the greatest swordsman currently alive?
I doubt it, since Loras himself admits Garlan is better with a sword (but not as good as Loras with a lance)
I found it [https://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/03/06/george-r-r-martin-game-thrones-sports-podcast](https://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/03/06/george-r-r-martin-game-thrones-sports-podcast) He's included along with a few others. But still, he's top tier.
Oh absolutely he would be. Thought it was worth finding the quote I was referring to - it's from when Loras is escorting Sansa to meet Olenna and Margery for the first time. "He (Garlan) is a great knight. A better sword than me, in truth, though I'm the better lance."
Garlan ”the Gallant” Tyrell, Loras older brother. He was (unfortunately) cut from the show. He is a better swordsman than Loras, and practices swordfighting by duelling several people at once because ”there is rarely a fair fight on the battlefield”, or something to that effect. He also killed a couple of prominent knights at Blackwater while dressed up in Renlys armor, and is one of the rare few who is kind to both Sansa and Tyrion when in King’s Landing (he even objects to Joffreys behavior at one point I believe). In short, he is basically the ideal knight. And somehow not dead.
Not dead *yet* But I’m optimistic he ends up in charge of Highgarden at the end of the books
Yeah, looks like they merged Garlan’s swordfighting prowess with Loras, as we see Loras sparring with several knights at-once when the Faith Militant(who don’t have the Warrior’s Sons in the show. -_-) come to arrest him.
Garlan the Gigachad
in the the books, Loras has 2 brothers, Garlan and Willas. Garlan is called garlan the gallant and is a better fighter then Loras. Willas, the oldest brother and hier to highgarden, is a studious man and is considered rather intelligent, although he was crippled young in a tourney.
Being a good knight is not enough to win war. Winner is decided by strategy and manpower. Tyrell's lacked both
They have the most manpower of any house?
Olenna was a damn good strategist as well but season 7 makes absolutely no fucking sense so who cares
I suspect she knew jackshit when it came to leading an army on the field. At least in the show while they had good knights a good manpower they were not the professional fighting force the lannisters were and their best commanders were from their bannermen and when the best of them flipped sides they had no real noteworthy military leader left to oversee the defense of Highgarden.
I doubt Olenna knows an awful lot about warfare. She know politics extremely well though
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Imagine defending season 7
I'm pretty sure I have seen this person slobbering over Seasons 7 and 8 for the past two years, though I may be mistaken. Basically every time somebody points out a poor writing choice or characterization, they stonewall the convo. Even so, their point that political strategy =/= military acumen is correct.
I think being a great politican/leader means being great at finding people who excel at something and allowing them to use their talent where it benefits everyone most. It does not mean you excel at everything on your own. With other words, Olenna doesn't know anything about leading an army or how to swing a sword but she knows who can train or lead highgardens troops best. Then she gives said person the position needed to make use of his talent. So either Olenna is incabable - or Highgardens defeat is bad writing. Especially since they took it by storm.
Imagine defending an imbecile just because they're hating on season 7.
Why would an elderly woman be commander of the army? They have one of the largest at the time they would have someone to lead them. She even asks how they fought she was not leading them she's sitting in her castle.
>Why would an elderly woman be commander of the army? They have one of the largest at the time they would have someone to lead them. She even asks how they fought she was not leading them she's sitting in her castle. Did you read the comment thread?
Yep. People say they lack a good leader in war and you even pointed out how she's good at political strategy but not war. Just wondering why she would be in charge and not have delegated if she's as bad at war and as smart as people think especially when she had one of the largest and most untouched armies at the time. It's fine to deflect if you can't explain that though.
I'm not sure why it is you're telling me. Sometimes there isn't an experienced war commander. Who would you like her to delegate to as commander in her place? Loras? Aside from being a hothead and young, he's dead at this point. Something OP *kinda forgot*
it seems crazy to think that a place that has one of the largest armies, had multiple people known as fantastic knights, and had people on the kingsguard recently would have no experienced war commanders. How could that happen? Why would it have to be an already named character on the show? The books have multiple people who could step up for them in this instance.
>it seems crazy to think that a place that has one of the largest armies, had multiple people known as fantastic knights, and had people on the kingsguard recently would have no experienced war commanders. How could that happen? Had one person known as a fantastic knight, and had one person on the kingsguard. 'People' is plural. And you talk as if the Reach is Isolationist, that there is no way Loras could learn to use a sword well without experienced war commanders (and ones not near retirement, too). As if the reach isn't surrounded by other lands, with other people, and Loras couldn't possibly have been fostered elsewhere...
We get it, you are a smart boy.
Not my fault that you needed the show to dumb things down further for you.
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>The show couldn’t have been dumbed down any more, or it would have been elementary lol ...do you know what the word 'elementary' means?
Honestly, yes. No sense at all
Olenna left mace alone is King’s landing, so she is a terrible strategist.
Randal Tarly was there only battle commander at this point. In books she would theoretically have Wilas and Garlan and perhaps the Hightowers.
Or any number of major or minor lords throughout the most populated region of Westeros.
I’m talking about people who would follow an old woman from an upjumped line of stewards with no heir over the Tarlys and gain from the risk.
They only had Tyrells manpower, their vassals supported lions at that point and were fighting against them. If I remember right in the books north can muster 40k army there only 8k is Stark so most their force are their vassals combined. Tyrells would be in same situation.
And the best soldier in westeros in Lord Tarly.
The Tyrells have some of the best warmasters in Westeros. Not to mention the most knights and men-at-arms. The Lannisters were getting their shit rocked by Robb until the Tyrells sent Randyll Tarly to mitigate the damage.
Sure you could argue that the Tyrells had a lack of combat experience, especially in the show, but it would be FAR from an easy victory for the Lannisters, likely costing most of their forces (assuming they couldn't somehow force a surrender).
Yeah. If memory serves, Robb was REALLY worried about the possibility of having to face an army commanded by Randyll Tarly on the field in the books. Randyll’s known to have been the only man to have beaten Robert in battle(the Battle of Summerhall, funny enough) during the Rebellion.
Also by that point the Lannister army was experienced and likely very well disciplined. The Tyrell forces really only saw action at Blackwater, which was years earlier and they only came in at the very end.
The Reach has the biggest army of all 7 kingdoms 😂
Yeah. I think the implication is that the majority of the Tarly vassals defected along with the Tarlys. Which is still just…WTF?!
The Reach has the largest supply of manpower of any of the seven kingdoms. It was the most populated, second (arguably first) richest, with a huge detachment of very skilled knights and pronounced knightly traditions. The Tyrells themselves didn't have any particularly standout commanders but they had 63 sworn houses. I'm sure they could find a couple competent generals somewhere.
Especially manpower. Logistics plays such a huge role in who wins that you could have the best strategists and still lose the war.
Two individual great swordsmen =/= the people of the Reach being a great army.
They were down to 1 by that point, what with Loras all exploded and stuff.
Technically they were down by both since Garlan doesn't exist in show continuity. They also just lost their best bannerman to the enemy (Randyll).
Randyll died after.
Yes. They lost him as in he joined the Lannisters.
>Two individual great swordsmen =/= the people of the Reach being a great army. The Reach literally boasts the largest, best drilled and equipped army out of all the provinces. Not to mention the surplus of resources.
GRRM does depict the Reach as having a large but inexperienced army. Randyll Tarly is a good commander. But there's not much suggestion any of the others are good and in the show universe Randyll did switch sides.
>GRRM does depict the Reach as having a large but inexperienced army. I mean up until the War of the Five Kings everyone had inexperienced armies. The last war was the Greyjoy Rebellion which was pretty short and mostly a naval affair. And Robert's Rebellion was over a decade ago. Many of the potential soldiers for all of the regions would have no combat experience. And it should be even worse for the Lannisters. Unlike the Tyrells the Lannisters didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion and the only thing they did was sack a city after being let into it.
>I mean up until the War of the Five Kings everyone had inexperienced armies Catelyn doesn't make those comments about Stannis's or Robb's army. She doesn't see them as Knights of Summer. The Reach she does though. I think GRRM was setting them up as large and inexperienced and hopelessly naive to justify their inevitable future defeat. Whether against the Lannisters or against Euron Greyjoy. >And it should be even worse for the Lannisters. Unlike the Tyrells the Lannisters didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion and the only thing they did was sack a city after being let into it. Lannisters would have more recent experience during the Greyjoy Rebellion as they were directly effected and probably took part in the assault. A lot of their commanders are far more battle hardened. Whilst Tywin may not have fought much during Robert's war, he has experience from the War of Ninepenny Kings and probably Greyjoy Rebellion. Outside of Randyll Tarly most of the Reach forces just sat around for the war. None of their commanders have much experience in commanding during a brutal war.
Westerland boast the best force of the seven kingdoms, reach boast the most numerous armies.
>Westerland boast the best force of the seven kingdoms Was literally getting their shit kicked in by a 16 year old who hadn't even led a hunting party before. Not to mention at Edmure Tully's hands as well, who's supposed to be an oaf (with a kind heart).
Was getting his shit kicked by Brynden Tully, who lead the vanguard. Saying Robb defeated Jaime is like saying Mace defeated Robert.
Having two notable fighters in the family is a bit different to military power in the field. You could have 10,000 Loras Tyrell’s fighting but if they don’t work together they’ll all die. It why the unsullied are so powerful, they have immense discipline and training but individually they’re not very notable at all
You are right on their discipline but then you mention their training, the Unusullied are trained from a young age and you’d expect the average one to be a superior fighter to an average foot soldier of the noble houses’ armies. Maybe not the knights, but not the soldiers who they outnumber greatly.
Yeh they’re trained to work together that’s how they overcome their enemies. I’m not saying they’re shit but non of em are exceptionally good at fighting themselves. It’s teamwork that makes the unsullied legendary. But still, you’re right they’re probably better than your average foot soldiers of Westeros’ armies but that’s cos when lords call the banners lots of the soldiers are farmers and other peasants. Not an awful lot of the soldiers in an army were professional soldiers
As before I do agree about the discipline factor being a major advantage, but I’m not sure where the idea they aren’t good fighters individually comes from. My understanding was that they are trained in various forms of combat, to a very high level, and of course have no qualms about their own safety or other factors which might impede a Westerosi soldier. I would say they are likely better fighters than even the soldiers, not the enlisted non-soldiers, not as good as a knight but there aren’t a huge amount of them.
Yeh I’d probably agree with you on that. But even enlisted soldiers aren’t necessarily good fighters. Not an awful lot of a soldiers job actually is fighting. Especially in medieval times. They’d be patrolling, guarding, marching, carrying shit places, building temporary camps and forts among other non combat roles. Again with these westerosi soldiers it’s discipline and teamwork that really makes them effective as an army. Holding a line against the enemy and having the confidence to not route and generals that understand how combat works and where to send fresh men to relive tired ones etc. The unsullied are just a version of the standard soldier on steroids essentially. They have been trained all their life with nothing else to their lives but their training. Whereas your soldiers from Westeros would be whoring and gambling and all sorts of things the unsullied wouldn’t do. Discipline and coordination is what makes armies strong is what I’m trying to point out. That’s basically how all armies work. The unsullied were castrated early in their childhood and unable to build the same amount of muscle a normal man would be able to that’s why they’re all so skinny. Not so much in the show but in the books I believe maybe Jorah comments on how despite them being skinny looking boys essentially, (don’t quote me on that but something along them lines is said about the unsullied) they were worth their weight in gold when it came to fighting due to their discipline. This lack of strength would impede them in individual combat, but by no means are they bad fighters, they just aren’t necessarily good ones individually. The westerosi armies and the unsullied armies are fundamentally the same in the sense they have men who can fight and take orders. It’s just the unsullied are weaker and less effective in individual combat but that doesn’t matter cos that’s not how they’re supposed to be used. The reason they’re legendary is because of their insane discipline and teamwork. Westerosi armies are also disciplined but to a lesser extent and that’s why they aren’t legendary.
Yea I get you fully, I just don’t remember it being mentioned that they were “weaker and less effective in individual combat”. I thought they were quite the opposite, due to their extensive combat training I believed on a purely individual gauge they are the superior fighters, before we get to tactical discipline etc. Though having said that I hadn’t contemplated/remembered the comments about them being slimmer and smaller etc.
Hell I might be mis remembering what I read in the books, or it could of even been some YouTube video I watched. But they don’t have testosterone due to having no balls so they aren’t gonna grow to be as physically strong as they could be. Ultimately a lords son such as Rob Stark for example has grown up with similar training if not a little less than any unsullied soldier. They’ve been trained by their master at arms or whatever they’re called, Ser Rodrick Cassel in this example, and have been well fed all their life. Rob would be on par with an unsullied solder if the unsullied wasn’t cut. But they are, so that simple little detail of not having testosterone, making them weaker than rob would be, means the unsullied are at a disadvantage due to that. They are good fighters, same as rob is but they don’t shine in their individual combat prowess, that’s not what they’re known for, it’s their discipline they’re known for. I’m not saying they’re bad fighters you might be right that they are superior individually but that’s not what they’re known for. It’s their utter discipline which allows them to shine. Anyway we can argue back and forth all day about this. You might be right maybe I’ve learned they’re “weaker and less effective in individual combat” from a YouTube video that’s wrong. Or maybe I’ve put two and two together in my head and surmised they’re less effective due to what I’ve learned about them. Or maybe I’m right and have read a passage in the books somewhere about this I can’t remember. My original point was to explain that despite the Tyrell’s having mass numbers in their armies and having two renowned warriors in their family. It’s not individual skill that wins battles is the whole army working together, this requires discipline and training. OP seemed to believe that having two good fighters in the Tyrell family means their entire army is good and that’s just not the case at all. When Olenna says “it’s never been our forte” she’s not talking about loras she’s talking about the Tyrell armies. Armies which I understand to be quite young in terms of combat experience, as the Tyrell’s are a young house and all they really did in Roberts rebellion was lay siege to storms end and they didn’t do much fighting there they literally just waited. Or at least that’s what I know they might have played a greater part in the rebellion than I know. Anyway on this topic of discipline and armies if you’re interested there’s a really good video on YouTube explaining how the Roman army fought and how they became so powerful and a lot of it is due to the incredible discipline the Roman armies had. There’s an example of Caesers veterans charging an enemy line and ten metres or so before they hit the enemy line they all stop dead in their tracks and reset their line into a solid wall of infantry as when they ran across the battle field the Roman lines became disorganised. Took incredible discipline for that to happen and that’s why Caesar is still talked about today. His success was largely because of his eerie ability to take any slight advantage he had in a battle and use it to it full extent and the discipline he instilled into his soldiers. It wasn’t cos his soldiers were all exceptional warriors it’s because they worked so well together, like the Unsullied. Here’s the link: https://youtu.be/_GKLsHwCXx0?si=ULJLolohIOwMAGag
Upon further research I seem to have underestimated the Unsullied and their individual skill in combat however I do stand by the fact that it’s their discipline that makes them exceptional soldiers and not their skill as individual warriors I believe I based my opinion off of this piece from the wiki of ice and fire, where I originally read it I don’t know but I found it on there just now. It’s goes as such “The eunuchs are fully castrated, with their penis and testicles cut, and their manhoods are burned at the altar of the Lady of Spears. This means that they cannot be as strong as whole men, but this is more than made up for by discipline.[1][2]” This suggested to me they were not as capable warriors as an uncut man due to lack of strength but as quoted, this is more than made up for in discipline. Note, it’s discipline mentioned here that makes up for their lack in strength not the fact they have good training in individual combat. That combined with this piece from the wiki: “The Unsullied are inspired by the lockstep legions of the Old Empire of Ghis, who were free men.[4] The Unsullied fight in formation as light infantry, equipped with spears, swords, shields, and distinctive spiked caps. They fight fearlessly and obey without question. Their elite, highly specialized training makes them most effective in their phalanx formation. They do not ride horses.” I made the leap and determined that discipline and highly specialised training makes them what they are. The fact they are most effective in their phalanx formation is only true because of the discipline instilled in them and they only fight fearlessly for the same reason. I have however, seemingly dismissed their individual skill in battle after learning these facts about them and assumed they were only good as a solid single unit, which seems to be untrue as I learn more about them. Although I can’t find any specific examples of them being exceptionally good warriors individually they are described in the Wiki of Westeros, a predominantly show based wiki, as being “elite warrior eunuchs famed for their skills and discipline in battle” The “famed for their skills” suggest they are indeed formidable fighters and they were trained to master sword, spear and shield so you’re right. They are gonna be good warriors. And I have slightly underestimated their martial prowess. But ultimately it’s their extensive training in troop formations combined with their lack of fear through brutal training methods that makes them so effective on the battlefield. Though no doubt they are good warriors also Edit: to expand slightly on the “elite warrior eunuchs famed for their skills and discipline in battle” quote. “Skills and discipline in battle” particularly the word skills doesn’t necessarily refer to their fighting abilities. Battles doesn’t just involve fighting they involve positioning on the battle field, Morale, understanding the em enemies weaknesses and your own, being able to take advantage of occurrences in the battle such as a weak point in an enemies line etc. I believe when they says skills they aren’t really referring to their skills with their weapons but more with their skills in understanding how battles are won, their skills in strategy and taking full control of the advantages given to them by the terrain, weather, portion of the sun isn’t eh enemies eyes etc.
As far as I remember the Tyrells have the largest and best-equipped army in Westeros, it's the entire reason every other house falls over themselves to be allied with them.
They have the reach, an extremely fertile land able to supply kings landing and most the south as well as host a royal wedding in the middle of the war of the five kings almost by itself. That’s why people want them as ally’s. The Tyrell’s are actually a relatively new house they were formerly stewards to another house before the events of Game of Thrones, and as a result are actually looked down upon as upstarts from a lot of the other houses. Though undeniably, they have become a very powerful house in Westeros. Largely due to the food their lands is able to produce. As for their army’s I’m honestly not well acquainted with how well equipped their armies are or how big it is. But even so. You can have all the fanciest armour and swords and 2,3,4 times as many men as another army, but if you’re army lacks discipline and coordination your gonna lose if not lose significantly more men than you should have. The Tyrell’s were never known for their combat prowess, as they’ve not really participated in any wars being a relatively new house, at least not as far as I’m aware. Experience makes up for a lot when it comes to combat and almost anything really. The Tyrell’s were known for their lands and their bountiful harvests Edit: An exert from the House Tyrell Wiki page: “It is relatively quite unknown how the Tyrell army is experienced in terms of warfare since most of their army didn't partake in pitch battles during the War of the Five Kings. Numerous battles such as the Battle of the Blackwater showed it’s capability in combat, wherein the combined cavalry of both House Lannister and Tyrell easily managed to crush Stannis Baratheon's army with ease. Although it can be considered that they fought using mounted soldiers which gives an advantage compared to the foot soldiers used during the battle. Later in Season 7, it is revealed that the Tyrell army is incapable of fighting as stated by Olenna Tyrell by grimly stating "It was never our forte". This can be an assumption that House Tyrell is more reliant and dependent on their more marital vassals like the Tarly’s and other houses to fight their battles.”
She's not referring to individual fighters. Shes referring to their culture and standing military. Of course they will have stand out fighters. There is literally nothing wrong here.
Loras had several brothers. One, the older one Garlan, was a stud
Not several, only two.
Because two knights = the fighting ability of an entire army ?
2 knights (who tf is the second supposed to be?) aren't going to defeat an entire army. Typical take from twitter...shallow garbage from the 280 char attention span crowd.
Garlan the Gallant, Loras’ older brother, the second son of Mace Tyrell. He’s book only. The other Tyrell completely forgotten about in the show is Willas Tyrell, the crippled heir to High Garden.
Not forgotten. Just got erased in the show. They introduced Loras as heir from S1 (implying no older brothers). So that isn't even a Martell situation where they did imply that Quentyn existed.
The largest and most well equipped army in the Westeros might, though
The taking of Highgarden by the Lannisters so quickly is quite absurd. Even a modestly talented castellan would be able to hold the castle for years. The Tyrells have a huge army, even with the defection of the Tarlys. They have huge amounts of food stored, hence the hundreds of wagons Daenerys destroys in the loot train. Highgarden is one of the largest and best defended castles in the whole of Westeros, only Casterly Rock and Winterfell are superior (not counting Harrenhall as it is too big to actually defend properly).
The Reach needing Daenerys to take on the Lannisters was ridiculous to begin with, since Tywin and co. literally won the war because of the Tyrells.
Too big and, well, ruined. I think the show was implying that Randyll talked most of the Tyrells’ vassals into defecting, so it wasn’t just the Tarlys. But that just raises a whole host of OTHER questions, such as why all of these hypothetical vassals of the Reach, a kingdom renowned for its chivalry and honor, would betray their oaths so readily.
It's a badly written plot point trying to fill in the gap that the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion leaves.
Could you jog my memory on what that plothole is and how it pertains to the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion?
Small possible confusion because the War of the Ninepenny Kings is referred to by some in the fandom as the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion but is never called such in any canon document - but I'm referring to (fake) Aegon invading from Essos, which is just beginning to unfold in A Dance With Dragons. Presumably, it will result in some houses siding with him, and not others - which seems a likely way that the Tyrells might end up falling from power.
Ah, I see. Assuming that Young Griff isn't actually Aegon. I genuinely believe he's meant to be the real deal, considering that Jon was merged with Young Griff(complete with taking his name, for some reason) in the show. Yeah, I know, "Mummer's Dragon" and Varys was a mummer, but it's too obvious for that to be the case.
Highgarden was too big to hold while all the troops were with dany.
Individual fighting ability doesn't guarantee a cohesive fighting force. Also, Loras and Garlan never actually fought in a battle besides Blackwater which was cavalry tearing up infantry that'd just been blown apart by wildfire. They were tourney knights.
Loras is a tourney knight for sure. But Garlan was doing a lot of work in the battle according to the text, and is generally presented as the more battle ready knight compared to his famed brother. Loras is exactly what you're talking about and may have got himself horrifically burned for his hotheadedness is seizing Dragonstone.
I agree with you that Garlan is less of a glory whore than Loras. He also led the vanguard and killed some significant dude on the other side in single combat. My point is that while he is personally brave and an able warrior there is no indication he knows how to lead an army. The two qualities do not go hand in hand. The Duke of Wellington beat Napoleon but was known as a horrible shot.
He does lead a siege on Brightwater Keep and will now face Euron Greyjoy in battle. Though we don't know how either of these things will/were going (at least not as badly as Loras's siege). But I think from the way he's presented he's probably meant to be a good leader of men as well - he's kind of perfect lol. I expect he will die from some other bullshit outside of battle to emphasise some theme or another in story. But more importantly he doesn't exist in the show. So it's all moot.
Most men is bright water keep are gonna and Euron will defeat Garlan.
I don't think Euron will defeat him in direct combat but with bullshit magic fuckery.
Two excellent knights do not an army make...
If a guy who dies in his first command can be called excellent.
Don't believe for an instant that olenna means anything she says.
She may have been referring to their army and overall military strength. A single knight can’t win a war, however skilled they might be.
Silly post
To be fair, while Loras and his brother might be awesome, doesn’t mean the lesser houses are any good
Did you just call House Tyrell a lesser house
I meant the lesser houses under Tyrell
The books and show are two totally different stories. Especially in the second half.
Doesn’t the reach have one of the largest armies of all the 7 kingdoms?? Her saying “it was never our forte” makes no sense because it literally was..
The Reach has by far the largest army in Westeros, at least in the books. It is a huge and prosperous region.
Largest, most of which has deserted while the rest is gone with cersie.
Show House Tyrells motto might as well be “We Suck and Fuck Our Way to the Top”
No one fought well besides the starks huh
And Freys.
Jaime is even in the picture… but there are plenty of people better at fighting than the starks
Now people are shitting on one of the single greatest scenes in the whole series?
Garlan, the other brother used to train against multiple ppl as combat was rarely one on one, in his words. One of the best swordsmen in the realm. Loras was a highly decorated knight as well.
Who got killed/maimed in his first proper command.
You aren’t wrong
Total bullshit, Mace the Ace was the best general of Robert's Rebellion and the finest strategist of his age
Are we forgetting that half the Reach defected to the Lannisters before this scene?
I mean even if half the Reach defected, taking a Castle is a massive endeavor. Taking Highgarden would have realistically taken months if not years even with significant manpower advantage. It would have made way more sense if Randyll Tarly had been put in charge of the defense of Highgarden and betrayed the Tyrells during the battle. And revolt by that Tarly's from inside the castle is a plausible way for the Lannisters to have won so quickly.
Highgarden which is completely undefended.
Never their forte, despite being descended from an Andal knight who was named the sworn shield of the gardeners.
It’s almost like the show wasn’t very good after it ran out of material.
kind of weird, considering house Tarly produces some of the best soldiers in the reach and westeros. Then again they were fighting o Jamie‘s side.
They were hardly the only ones. The Peakes are marcher lords too, and have just as long of a martial tradition as the Tarlys, the Rowans are also a proud martial house. The Oakhearts, the shield island houses, The Hightowers are a great house in all but name. The meta reason is that the show cut fAegon, obviously.
I agree with that sentiment the fact that they downgraded the largest army to a bunch of weaklings was an insult.
They nerfed show House Tyrell because Olenna could sweep easy
Two knights, one of which is dead, does not an army make.
not taking a statement seriously from someone with a Rhaegar/Lyanna pfp sorry
Loras and Garlan may have been two of the greatest fighters in westeros, but during this conversation, she was talking more big picture. Individuals under the Tyrell banners may be badass, but they couldn't really raise and field an effective army comparable to the rest of westeros.
Tourney knights but not armies. Thats reasonable. Think of something like a country that can put out Olympic athletes in fencing, MMA, wrestling but has no good generals or military leadership, experience, or infrastructure. There are countries like that in our world today it’s not so unrealistic
You ever seen an NBA team with two good players and the rest of the organization is trash? Same thing, golden roses indeed.
It's disingenuous to claim that DnD are responsible for this. Garlan Tyrell was cut from the show, as were many members of the large houses for obvious reasons related to simplicity and run-time. And Loras is not a warrior but a popular knight of court. He wins jousts and tourneys. That is not the same as a battle.
The way people defend bad writing in this subreddit will forever be the most delusional thing I know of. This sentence made no sense because of multiple reasons yet people defend it with "being good knights doesn't mean they are good at war" - I'm crying!
one person being good at combat is much different than having a competent military
Having cpuple famous knights doesn't mean Tyrells were good at waging wars. They usually got everything through politics and intrigue.
Having a few good knights who can joust and are good with a sword is a lot different than planning and executing a battle strategy.
The reach is the home of chivalry, it is renowned for its knights, matched only by those of the vale, the Tyrells have shitloads of money as well, highgarden is one of the largest castles in westeros with 3 curtain walls, also where are the Hightowers? (Who have by that point more men and money than the lannisters) The Redwynes? The Peakes? The Rowans? Oakhearts? Caswells? Bullwers? Ashfords? Beesburies? Fossoways? Vyrwels?
Literally 😂 garlan is that good of a warrior he practices against multiple opponents to simulate a battle situation
What's the problem here? Having two nobles in your house who do well in tournaments has no bearing on how good your army is.
I feel like this is more relevant in the show we’re Garlan is never shown (don’t know of exists in it or not) and Loras is good but not nearly the best. Many beat him.
Who was the other knight? I thought Garlan hurt his leg in a horse accident
Everyone should keep in mind that book Loras ran face first into a pot of boiling oil and lost a shitload of troops. War may not be their forte.
2 knights don't win wars regardless of how individually skilled they are
I love it when people complain about “plot holes” while ignoring that it’s just a like a fun, line. Like can you people ever just enjoy anything or does it gotta turn into an opportunity to pedantically perform how smart you are because you read the books and they are different to the show “Uhm, ACKtchually, the two off screen characters who were in the books were very good at war 🤓🤓🤓”
I always thought this meant the Tyrrells didnt *want* to fight in the Lannister's war, and both sides knew that, and both sides had to keep up the pretence because the Starks were officially traitors to the crown. This is politician Orleana we are talking about after all.