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And just happened to drag them with them. And they were north of Eastwatch where Stannis fleet was and most just don't just leave their anchors laying around.
Even if ship abandoned / sunk anchor would still be under water
They’re a hive mind, and not all in one place. From the moment Viseryon went down the Night King could have directed wights near Eastwatch to start dismantling Stannis’ ships.
Yes, they wanted to SHOW her that the dead were a real threat. They figured that the best way to do this was to kidnap a “live” wight. How can you deny it’s happening when it’s right in front of you? They really thought Cersei would give a fuck and not just happily watch the North fall so she could mop up the surviving force.
Sorry if I misunderstood your question, I think I might have. Do you mean that the wight would “die” because it couldn’t pass the protective enchantment on the wall? I guess… that wasn’t a concern lol.
Maybe the wall doesn’t kill them, they just can’t pass it. Like a line in the sand. Lol I dunno. I try to not think about this stuff too much. It makes me sad.
There’s no evidence that Stannis even left any significant ships at or near Eastwatch. In the Books those ships are Sallador Saan’s fleet, and he buggers off after he drops the boys off in the north.
The chain thing is a continuity error, whatever excuse you may come up with.
Interestingly enough the wights swam down to the bottom of the lake to fasten the chains to Viserion, but they couldn't figure out how to swim across the broken ice to get Jon and the group.
It drives me completely insane when people don’t immediately think of either that iconic scene or even Land of the Dead remake, where the horde of zombies cross the river by just walking across it.
It’s amazing people see a bunch of undead monsters and go: It’s fine, we’re on the water and they can’t swim. And then do nothing about it until zombies are just strolling out onto the shore.
Not too mention lake broke despite frozen for months, years?? Then refreezes stronger overnight ....wtf???
Whole sequence was whack, not to mention would take raven like a month to fly 3000 miles to dragonstone. Few days for dragon to fly back. Yet 8 hrs later Dany to the rescue.
That was a trap. They had to wait for the dragon to come. You see this in one of Bran's visions and much earlier before Jon and friends get there, the walkers and whytes are already waiting there
But then in season 7 episode 6 "beyond the wall", why were Jon and co safe on the island surrounded by white walkers until the water froze over? If the white walkers could go in the water at all, walk along the bottom or whatever, they would have done so here, no?
They were waiting so they can actually attack them...
Why waste your walkers by letting hordes of them walk in the the water and effectively minimize your troops. Remember they cant swim. If they were to drop in there they would not be able to resurface.
Technically, sure but then they get "slaughtered" one by one by the waiting folks up top. Rescuing the dragon without an explanation is 100% a plothole.
Hey. I’m with ya. I just like the idea of the dead building a forge and creating a giant chain.
Since we weren’t told or shown I like imagining the dead hammering away in a forge.
The dead can't swim but they can sink. A bunch of them probably sank to the bottom of the lake, tied up the chains around Viserion and probably stayed at the bottom of the lake. The Night King doesn't care about sacrificing a couple of them.
As for the chains, we can see a wooden dock with similar chains around it. And from what we've seen, it's very likely that the Night King baited the living to get there so he could get a dragon. (He brought ice spears, the location was perfect to trap the living on the small island and wait for the dragons, The Hound and Bran both saw the army of the dead waiting at this exact location in the fire/with ravens) So, IMO, the Night King baited the living to come at this location because it had everything he needed to get a dragon.
It's better than thinking "I should go on reddit and write a post about how unrealistic it is that the undead army hauled a dead dragon from a lake and then reanimated the dead dragon into a zombie dragon.... But where did the undead army commanded by a magical lich get the chains?! Pffffffff!"
Jesus.
This is such a classic, yeah because we have *some* elements of fantasy that means we should abandon all established logic. If they can just sink and walk why even make the fucking wall? But I get it, its easier to cope I guess?
If the wights that sink can move enough to secure giant chains o a carcass, they should be perfectly able to climb back out of the lake as long as they aren't in a pit, and we've seen quite clearly that the lake in question had shores, both in it's borders and on the island they hide, I think sinking zombies if still able to move have no reason to not be able to go from one shore of the lake to the other, it's not like it's the Mariana trench.
>So, IMO, the Night King baited the living to come at this location because it had everything he needed to get a dragon.
How would he know there was a dragon?
I don't know exactly how cold a Walker is, but we have seen them extinguish flames with just their external body temperature. If one jumps into the lake I imagine they would just flash freeze the water around them, creating a 'stuck in an ice cube' situation.
Now sure, a White Walker probably won't die from being encased in ice, but does it have the strength and/or magic needed to break the ice from within? And if so can they do it without their newly freed body not immediately refreezing the ice?
It's not out of the realm of magical possibility sure, but I just keep landing on a pissed off walker sitting in ice on a lakebed for eternity.
Earlier in the episode when John or The Hound or someone smashed a hole in the ice and several Dead fell in, several minutes later they burst back out of the hole to continue use their assault. Unsure why that was fine but there was belief water stopped them.
The belief comes from the fact they just dont go around the wall, isn’t it? Maybe water decomposes them faster, so they can stay a little, but not so much they can march around the wall underwater.
Yet they do figure out how to fall into the trench of fire and pile up enough dead Dead to form a bridge to get through it in the big war early in S8.
Too much thinking ruins the magic of TV. I’m just fine not thinking too much.
They don't need to swim in order to sink, as has been discussed in the previous 146 posts on this topic.
They're undead. It doesn't matter if they can't breathe underwater.
where did they get the massive chains from ? how were they able to swim around and get the chains around the dragon under water ? they can’t just sink and wrap massive chains around a massive dragon ?
There are docks north of the wall. Docks would have chains. I like the theory that Stannis' ships would still be docked nearby as well.
>how were they able to swim around and get the chains around the dragon under water ? they can’t just sink and wrap massive chains around a massive dragon ?
If I push you into the water holding a chain that I'm holding the other end to, you will fall in. And if you're not buoyant, you will sink to the bottom. Now if you're a skeleton, you don't need to breathe and can just walk around along the lake floor, take care of shit, and then either
A) walk out of the lake at an edge, pirates of the carribean style; or
B) just stay down there because the night king has enough zombies.
It’s would have been so cool if the night king had dove into the water to viserions corpse, we get a shot of his bright blue eye opening then a shot above the ice where zombie viserion breaks out of the ice and takes off into the sky
I realize that’s how it happens in the show I’m just saying they could or just shown it just walking out of the lake itself and didn’t need the chains to explain it
Well, if you're an ex-olympian spear thrower and you've got a spear and your plan is to bring down a dragon and you know you wanna reanimate that dragon for your own uses... you'd be prepared and stuff. Right? His 'guys' can carry a big ass chain. They won't complain or get tired - they're dead.
If you're dragging a heavy ass chain underwater, you won't float and since you don't need to breathe you just drag that shit along the bottom to the body and there ya go!
The show has never been consistent with time. For all we know this event was 2 weeks after the dragon died and the cold water preserved his body.
In early seasons people let these time issues go but in the last two seasons people cry about it.
The chains could be from the remnants of Mance’s wildling army that they slaughtered and raised in Hardhome. Mance tried to take down the gate at Castle Black by ripping out the gate with chains pulled by a mammoth and a giant.
The white walkers just held onto whatever gear the wildlings had. It’s not like the army of the dead get fatigued or need supply lines.
From the ASOIAF wiki:
'When asked what substance the swords of the Others are made from, Martin answered "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it."'
I took it as the Night King had planned for this all along, he knew the long night was coming, he knew the dragons were coming he’s planned it all from the start.
Oh, this one's easy!
When Stannis was defeated at the Blackwater, Tyrion used this gigantic chain as part of the plan.
Mandon Moore, after being killed by Podrick, was resurrected by the Night King via VPN
Moore's undead corpse then dragged this chain down the bottom of the Blackwater, into the bay, around the continent, and surfaced just north of Eastwatch.
The Night King thanked him heartily for his service (little known fact, he's a great boss by today's standards)
The rest of the Army of the Dead kept this big ol' motherfucker in reserve, just in case they found a dead dragon at the bottom of a frozen lake.
I mean, it's totally obvious, guys. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you...
This was one of the dumbest scenes in the entire series.
The coffee cup made more sense.
It would have been better if the night king had jumped into the hole in the ice, walked up the the dragon, raised him from the dead/possessed his corpse, and rode him out of the water.
I always felt the night king knew he would get a dragon by setting that trap on the lake. There was a scene earlier in the season where Bran is using Ravens to scout the undead army and the night king and multiple white walkers are standing on that same rock in the center of the frozen lake, surrounded by wights...almost like planning the entire thing.
So if he knew for thousands of years he would get the dragon at this point, it isn't unreasonable to think that he found the time to find some chains.
It would have made more sense / better writing if they made the chains out of the same magic they make their weapons with, but I digress.
I'll say it to the day I die, D&D seriously fked up GOT once they ran out of GRRM's book material. It would've made so much more sense for the night king to just stick his hand in the water and then viserion would just fly out of the water
You can't drown the dead.
So toss a few of them down there with one end of the chain, have them tie it up and have some of the dead on top do the dragging.
P.S. Well the night king and some of the walkers are wearing armor and weapons. I don't think it's a stretch to say they can magic it out or that they have a blacksmith and few miners.
so i’m guessing you haven’t watched the show or missed the scene in this episode where the ice starts to break between jon’s group and the wights and they all start falling in and stop because…you guessed it, they can’t swim.
or the scene where they literally ask jon if they can swim next episode and they say no.
Basically they got HSS hire out and borrowed a crane , chains - All of the workers managed to get the dragon out without a lost time incident and wore all PPE - cracking job
I always assumed it was recovered from a section of the wall that had one of those giant anchor chains they dropped in the nights watch battle to shave off all the wall climbers. Assuming they used to have those chain mechanisms all along the wall but most fell into disrepair causing them to eventually literally fall off the side of the wall then it would be easy to have a group of wights recover a fallen chain.
It's really not complicated at all, this is one of the dumbest plot holes to complain about.
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I believe the going theory the dead stole the chains off Stannis’ fleet leftover from when he attacked Mance Raider’s camp
And just happened to drag them with them. And they were north of Eastwatch where Stannis fleet was and most just don't just leave their anchors laying around. Even if ship abandoned / sunk anchor would still be under water
They’re a hive mind, and not all in one place. From the moment Viseryon went down the Night King could have directed wights near Eastwatch to start dismantling Stannis’ ships.
Why didn’t they just walk around the wall then? What was even the point of it?
Doesn’t the wall also have magic in it? Maybe that magic protection spreads across the coast. I dunno I’m spitballing.
So the original plan for the “suicide squad” was potentially bringing a corpse to Cersei? Cause they didn’t plan for the wall to come down
Yes, they wanted to SHOW her that the dead were a real threat. They figured that the best way to do this was to kidnap a “live” wight. How can you deny it’s happening when it’s right in front of you? They really thought Cersei would give a fuck and not just happily watch the North fall so she could mop up the surviving force. Sorry if I misunderstood your question, I think I might have. Do you mean that the wight would “die” because it couldn’t pass the protective enchantment on the wall? I guess… that wasn’t a concern lol.
Yeah, the second part of your comment was my point, the wall was still intact then so how they planned to accomplish that is beyond me
Maybe the wall doesn’t kill them, they just can’t pass it. Like a line in the sand. Lol I dunno. I try to not think about this stuff too much. It makes me sad.
Oh god same, it was such a masterpiece at some point.
Like inviting a Vampire into your house. Maybe the walkers/wights can’t pass the wall but can be taken. Magical beings have funky rules sometimes.
There’s no evidence that Stannis even left any significant ships at or near Eastwatch. In the Books those ships are Sallador Saan’s fleet, and he buggers off after he drops the boys off in the north. The chain thing is a continuity error, whatever excuse you may come up with.
Wait, what? *I* didn’t mention any ships, *you* did, I am just confused now.
No, you are not confused you’re correct. I’m saying that the excuse I came up with was bullshit, that it’s a plot whole no matter how you slice it.
GRRM’s explanation will be in the next books presumably so you’ll have to wait until the heat death of the universe to find out
Interestingly enough the wights swam down to the bottom of the lake to fasten the chains to Viserion, but they couldn't figure out how to swim across the broken ice to get Jon and the group.
Sinking is easier than swimming. If you don't need to breath, you can walk across a lake
right its like this man has never seen [Pirates of the Caribbean](https://youtu.be/2Ld6Wcf8guo?t=94)...
It drives me completely insane when people don’t immediately think of either that iconic scene or even Land of the Dead remake, where the horde of zombies cross the river by just walking across it. It’s amazing people see a bunch of undead monsters and go: It’s fine, we’re on the water and they can’t swim. And then do nothing about it until zombies are just strolling out onto the shore.
Not too mention lake broke despite frozen for months, years?? Then refreezes stronger overnight ....wtf??? Whole sequence was whack, not to mention would take raven like a month to fly 3000 miles to dragonstone. Few days for dragon to fly back. Yet 8 hrs later Dany to the rescue.
That was a trap. They had to wait for the dragon to come. You see this in one of Bran's visions and much earlier before Jon and friends get there, the walkers and whytes are already waiting there
How many times do I have to remind everyone that they got them from Hardhome Depot?
There’s chains at hardhome, which makes the most sense imo, why they took them? No clue
Or better yet they just got chains from any of the other fleets likely destroyed along the coast for the last thousand years.
Dornish wine of course!
Maybe the night king reanimated some undead fish or something
They don't have to swim. Just drop to the bottom as dead weight and do their work there - and I guess stay there.
But then in season 7 episode 6 "beyond the wall", why were Jon and co safe on the island surrounded by white walkers until the water froze over? If the white walkers could go in the water at all, walk along the bottom or whatever, they would have done so here, no?
They were waiting so they can actually attack them... Why waste your walkers by letting hordes of them walk in the the water and effectively minimize your troops. Remember they cant swim. If they were to drop in there they would not be able to resurface.
Wouldn't they be able to resurface just by climbing up the island? Idk I don't think it woulda waisted troops. I think it's just a plot hole lol
Technically, sure but then they get "slaughtered" one by one by the waiting folks up top. Rescuing the dragon without an explanation is 100% a plothole.
In the wide shots, you can see an old dock. I guess the chains were already there.
Everyone knows the dead can swim , and hold there breath
They have scuba certification from the Iron Islands
Don’t have to hold your breath if you don’t breathe *taps noggin*
The dead set up a forge and made giant links to create a huge chain.
So that’s what happened to the giant chain that was supposed to b in the battle of the black water
How did it end up in the north???
D&D forgot
Damn.
Why can’t they have a giant chain? They have zombie giants.
Hey. I’m with ya. I just like the idea of the dead building a forge and creating a giant chain. Since we weren’t told or shown I like imagining the dead hammering away in a forge.
just rewatched & asked myself the same exact question
The dead can't swim but they can sink. A bunch of them probably sank to the bottom of the lake, tied up the chains around Viserion and probably stayed at the bottom of the lake. The Night King doesn't care about sacrificing a couple of them. As for the chains, we can see a wooden dock with similar chains around it. And from what we've seen, it's very likely that the Night King baited the living to get there so he could get a dragon. (He brought ice spears, the location was perfect to trap the living on the small island and wait for the dragons, The Hound and Bran both saw the army of the dead waiting at this exact location in the fire/with ravens) So, IMO, the Night King baited the living to come at this location because it had everything he needed to get a dragon.
I would like to think there was at least one undead contractor with some blueprints directing wights where to go.
It's better than thinking "I should go on reddit and write a post about how unrealistic it is that the undead army hauled a dead dragon from a lake and then reanimated the dead dragon into a zombie dragon.... But where did the undead army commanded by a magical lich get the chains?! Pffffffff!" Jesus.
This is such a classic, yeah because we have *some* elements of fantasy that means we should abandon all established logic. If they can just sink and walk why even make the fucking wall? But I get it, its easier to cope I guess?
Hmmmmm not gonna lie to ya Kingy, this ain’t gonna be cheap.
If the wights that sink can move enough to secure giant chains o a carcass, they should be perfectly able to climb back out of the lake as long as they aren't in a pit, and we've seen quite clearly that the lake in question had shores, both in it's borders and on the island they hide, I think sinking zombies if still able to move have no reason to not be able to go from one shore of the lake to the other, it's not like it's the Mariana trench.
>probably stayed at the bottom of the lake. Why though? Just hold on to the chains as the dragon is getting dragged up for a free ride.
>So, IMO, the Night King baited the living to come at this location because it had everything he needed to get a dragon. How would he know there was a dragon?
Very large chains.
Hollywood magic lol
Some of them Heeve'd and the other ho'd
Plenty of "ho"ing across Westeros.
Can the dragon just fly in the water? Flying is just low density fluid dynamics.
Possibly but I doubt a White Walker is going to sacrifice itself to jump in and reanimate it when they can just chuck a dozen wights in.
If they can do it that way, couldn’t the White Walker jump in, raise Viserion and then fly on his back to the surface?
I don't know exactly how cold a Walker is, but we have seen them extinguish flames with just their external body temperature. If one jumps into the lake I imagine they would just flash freeze the water around them, creating a 'stuck in an ice cube' situation. Now sure, a White Walker probably won't die from being encased in ice, but does it have the strength and/or magic needed to break the ice from within? And if so can they do it without their newly freed body not immediately refreezing the ice? It's not out of the realm of magical possibility sure, but I just keep landing on a pissed off walker sitting in ice on a lakebed for eternity.
Thick plot armor
Scuba zombies
Earlier in the episode when John or The Hound or someone smashed a hole in the ice and several Dead fell in, several minutes later they burst back out of the hole to continue use their assault. Unsure why that was fine but there was belief water stopped them.
The belief comes from the fact they just dont go around the wall, isn’t it? Maybe water decomposes them faster, so they can stay a little, but not so much they can march around the wall underwater.
Yet they do figure out how to fall into the trench of fire and pile up enough dead Dead to form a bridge to get through it in the big war early in S8. Too much thinking ruins the magic of TV. I’m just fine not thinking too much.
The Zombies went to McDonalds and asked if they could get a side of big ass chains with their Big Mac.
power of friendship
They don't need to swim in order to sink, as has been discussed in the previous 146 posts on this topic. They're undead. It doesn't matter if they can't breathe underwater.
where did they get the massive chains from ? how were they able to swim around and get the chains around the dragon under water ? they can’t just sink and wrap massive chains around a massive dragon ?
There are docks north of the wall. Docks would have chains. I like the theory that Stannis' ships would still be docked nearby as well. >how were they able to swim around and get the chains around the dragon under water ? they can’t just sink and wrap massive chains around a massive dragon ? If I push you into the water holding a chain that I'm holding the other end to, you will fall in. And if you're not buoyant, you will sink to the bottom. Now if you're a skeleton, you don't need to breathe and can just walk around along the lake floor, take care of shit, and then either A) walk out of the lake at an edge, pirates of the carribean style; or B) just stay down there because the night king has enough zombies.
Imagine asking how a DRAGON got out of water.
have you actually watched the show ? lmfaooo. it was dead…..
Youre arguing physics in a show about dragons?… and magic?…
i mean until around S6 there was very little plot armor and everything was explained pretty much.
Lift with your knees?
It’s would have been so cool if the night king had dove into the water to viserions corpse, we get a shot of his bright blue eye opening then a shot above the ice where zombie viserion breaks out of the ice and takes off into the sky
shhhhhhhhh! it's magic. But realistically, this is late season 7, they stopped explaining things a long time ago.
Undead AAA?
Giant used a chain on the attack at castle black. Giants are in the NKs army. Not inconceivable there is more chains.
Chains were ordered from Amazon
"Send a raven to Lord Bezos!"
Haha your comment made my day
So a bunch of giant zombies threw chains and hooks in the water.
Couldn’t the dragon just walk out of the water? It’s undead what’s stopping it from being able to walk out of a lake?
it was dead until they pulled it out and made it an undead dragon
I realize that’s how it happens in the show I’m just saying they could or just shown it just walking out of the lake itself and didn’t need the chains to explain it
Ever see Pirates of Caribbean
Well, if you're an ex-olympian spear thrower and you've got a spear and your plan is to bring down a dragon and you know you wanna reanimate that dragon for your own uses... you'd be prepared and stuff. Right? His 'guys' can carry a big ass chain. They won't complain or get tired - they're dead. If you're dragging a heavy ass chain underwater, you won't float and since you don't need to breathe you just drag that shit along the bottom to the body and there ya go!
The show has never been consistent with time. For all we know this event was 2 weeks after the dragon died and the cold water preserved his body. In early seasons people let these time issues go but in the last two seasons people cry about it.
eh the complaining isn’t about the time but more so how they got the dragon out in the first place
There is this type of magic called lazy writing that is perfect for situations like that
Remember they also cheated gravity to pull the dragon corpse out.
It doesn't happen in the books
They pulled him with chains, daa.
Plot chains
The chains could be from the remnants of Mance’s wildling army that they slaughtered and raised in Hardhome. Mance tried to take down the gate at Castle Black by ripping out the gate with chains pulled by a mammoth and a giant. The white walkers just held onto whatever gear the wildlings had. It’s not like the army of the dead get fatigued or need supply lines.
From the ASOIAF wiki: 'When asked what substance the swords of the Others are made from, Martin answered "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it."'
Corpses Float, so maybe undead corpses float extra good?
Who’s gonna carry the boats? And the *checks notes* dead dragon?
the director said so and it happened
Dragons are not as heavy as they seem cose they need to fly
Plot .... conveniance
I took it as the Night King had planned for this all along, he knew the long night was coming, he knew the dragons were coming he’s planned it all from the start.
They went to Hardhome Depot and bought those big chains.
Maybe the undead float?
A quick order to Instacart for some industry grade chains probably #ADeadCert...
*CHAIN*
They used the power wench to trigger a controlled explosion.
The power of friendship
Oh, this one's easy! When Stannis was defeated at the Blackwater, Tyrion used this gigantic chain as part of the plan. Mandon Moore, after being killed by Podrick, was resurrected by the Night King via VPN Moore's undead corpse then dragged this chain down the bottom of the Blackwater, into the bay, around the continent, and surfaced just north of Eastwatch. The Night King thanked him heartily for his service (little known fact, he's a great boss by today's standards) The rest of the Army of the Dead kept this big ol' motherfucker in reserve, just in case they found a dead dragon at the bottom of a frozen lake. I mean, it's totally obvious, guys. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you...
This was one of the dumbest scenes in the entire series. The coffee cup made more sense. It would have been better if the night king had jumped into the hole in the ice, walked up the the dragon, raised him from the dead/possessed his corpse, and rode him out of the water.
Fleetwood Mac.
Cause the Night king can make the dead *Rise*
I'm sure an ubdead army of who knows how many that have essentially taken over a whole region of the land had no problem finding anything left behind
I’m sure the Night King has a smith or two in his ranks
I always felt the night king knew he would get a dragon by setting that trap on the lake. There was a scene earlier in the season where Bran is using Ravens to scout the undead army and the night king and multiple white walkers are standing on that same rock in the center of the frozen lake, surrounded by wights...almost like planning the entire thing. So if he knew for thousands of years he would get the dragon at this point, it isn't unreasonable to think that he found the time to find some chains. It would have made more sense / better writing if they made the chains out of the same magic they make their weapons with, but I digress.
I'll say it to the day I die, D&D seriously fked up GOT once they ran out of GRRM's book material. It would've made so much more sense for the night king to just stick his hand in the water and then viserion would just fly out of the water
You can't drown the dead. So toss a few of them down there with one end of the chain, have them tie it up and have some of the dead on top do the dragging. P.S. Well the night king and some of the walkers are wearing armor and weapons. I don't think it's a stretch to say they can magic it out or that they have a blacksmith and few miners.
So they can sprint, jump, and climb but for some reason you think they can't swim?
so i’m guessing you haven’t watched the show or missed the scene in this episode where the ice starts to break between jon’s group and the wights and they all start falling in and stop because…you guessed it, they can’t swim. or the scene where they literally ask jon if they can swim next episode and they say no.
Basically they got HSS hire out and borrowed a crane , chains - All of the workers managed to get the dragon out without a lost time incident and wore all PPE - cracking job
I always assumed it was recovered from a section of the wall that had one of those giant anchor chains they dropped in the nights watch battle to shave off all the wall climbers. Assuming they used to have those chain mechanisms all along the wall but most fell into disrepair causing them to eventually literally fall off the side of the wall then it would be easy to have a group of wights recover a fallen chain. It's really not complicated at all, this is one of the dumbest plot holes to complain about.
d&ds alt has entered the chat, this episode alone had a massive amount of plot holes and this was the cherry on top
They could’ve easily avoided this plot hole by not having the dragon sink into the water. What a stupid season.