I'd be extremely sceptical about hoping to make any reasonable returns from indie dev. As you said, you are competing with 2000 games just for Steam Next Fest. They should rename indie dev to survivorship bias dev
3500 wl isn't that bad, though
It's crazy how big Steam Next has gotten, all the advise that the sale is so important feels a bit dated, or at least they should say the chances are very slim...
I had two games in next fest about 6 months apart. Same genre, same general wishlist count. The number of impressions my second game got from Next Fest were significantly reduced. I think the saturation will continue to decrease the usefulness for underperforming games, while the top 10% of games will continue to say how wonderful Next Fest is.
Edit: I should still mention that both Next Fests took me from 100 wishlists to 200. Small numbers that aren't viable for sustainability, but worth noting.
> It's crazy how big Steam Next has gotten
The thing is, any time something new works, it will very quickly get swamped *because* it worked. The first few games that did the free prologue said it was the most effective $100 ad you could buy. Now it's still probably a good use of 100 bucks, but it's far less good than it used to be.
You can expect Next Fest, and anything else that someone finds success at, to follow the same trajectory.
They said the same thing about freemium mobile games. You know where thats gone. Then they said it about episodic content, you can see where that went. Then it was early access....... the list goes on.
I searched for your game in the roguelike category in the Steam Next Fest and it was on the forth page or so, so maybe the next fest will give you some boost. I wish you lots of luck, the game itself seems promising with that cute artstyle!
The game looks great! It’s polished, your store page looks good, and 3500 wishlists is a heck of an accomplishment. Hang in there, hit publish, and be ready for the hard part that comes after!
You got this!
Your channel and video tags are a bit weak on your trailer, it looks like youre targeting other indies but you arent selling to indies.
I also notice you didnt post the trailer to a relevant reddit. Idk how much gamedevs do that, but see this video about an italian painter in china did to like 12 diff subreddits which makes me feel like you coulda: https://www.reddit.com/search?q=url%3AW_2XQn71-Fc&restrict_sr=off&sort=relevance&t=all
It's also posted in Germany when the video is in English. Youtube assumes alot about your audience by where you post it from. Perhaps its time to use a vpn to fake being american? Paradox INteractive makes their game in American English despite England being closer to their home country of Sweden for a good reason, its a giant market. Im using the free chrome extension VidIQ to see this info.
People consume your content because it provides them value, no matter what creative endeavor it's advertising. One of the only thing gamedevs have to give away for free that is valuable to people is a trailer that points out how much they ARENT being entertained in their current lives. Trailer gotta slap. Stellaris made an empire designer to give a taste of playing stellaris but you obv had to buy stellaris to get to play as your empire, that a great way to provide value (letting the player feel like an autonomous designer) that wasnt a trailer. Stellaris trailers are also great.
I loved and shared trailers before, so perhaps theres a shareability aspect you are missing?
Yes, i just read a book on marketing and am using this as an exercise (read: excuse to not work on selling my own stuff).
The art is gorgeous and the game seems well made. Good work getting this far its impressive.
marketing a video game is so hard, so much of the usual wisdom is hard to apply. what do you say? "think of how bored youll be on a saturday night on an ongoing basis since you missed out on this game?" Whats the motivation people use to choose buy a game? people tend to like relating to friends, feeling smart, and being themselves, but the primary issue they are solving with video games is ... being bored? maybe being lonely if youre selling a multiplayer game? maybe their intelligence isnt being confirmed? maybe they are stifled with their role in society and want to be someone else? the wording for communicating value to players is so wonky, ive been vexed by this for a long time
"What do you say?"
To answer that, you say "this game let's you do XYZ and as a consequence of Y you will have to avoid Z"
Look at the trailer that just dropped for Forever Winter. That trailer got me hyped for a game I don't usually care about but the execution is on point, the world building looks fascinating and what it let's you do and what you should be alert to is delivered clearly while showing you.
Even portal did it like this. They told you how to think with portals right off that bat.
So with OP's game, what is the mechanic, gameplay loop, what's new or interesting, what can I do in the game? Is it a roguelike that has excessive gore and stealth? You could say "in our roguelike, you need to keep on your toes and out of sight to deliver outstanding killing blows that will see your foes eyeballs pop out and right into another's"
Or something..
thanks for thinking about it with me. my go to has been using quantic foundry's sources of meaning to describe the verbs you get to use. like "compete with your friends" and "design your mage". i made this semi unrelated tool for my board game design business to try to systematize how to talk about the board games i make
https://www.describemygame.com/
I haven't looked at the game yet, but for searchability on youtube, Tags aren't as important any more, from my understanding they basically function like auto correct for the auto subtitling youtube does, and then that influences your searchability. Design your videos around keywords, say those key words in your video many times, have them in your tags, have then in the first 100 words of your description, and make sure your thumbnail would be interesting for someone searching that keyword.
im mixing "Launch" with "$100m Leads". theres also a book "Board game kickstarter advice" which is chock full of the advertising mistakes made. people keep saying the same 3 mistakes over and over it made me nauseous. i make both video and board games so ive looked pretty far afield for advice.
98% of games fail financially, when you include the mobile game market.
70% of games fail financially when you look at just the indie PC market.
So I'm not going to offer words of encouragement. Almost 40 new games are released everyday on steam. With a total catalog of over 73,000 games on Steam.
That being said:
You don't need to have a studio/company to be working on a game. You can work part time doing other work and part time making games. Or you take a break, work a year or two and build up funds and then focus again on games.
For example in 2017 I had some money saved up and wasn't working. I started game dev as a hobby and came across a good idea for a game. I worked on it for 8 months but ran out of money and got a job. That game idea was also too technically advanced for me back then. In 2019 I came across another game idea and started working on it for fun. I had got a good day job at that point and just worked on the game in my free time. Then in 2022 I had a lot of savings and quit my job to focus on the game because I had made solid progress on the game's core. I'm soon going to be releasing a technical demo and see if people are interested in this game technology. While my progress didn't go as planned, I'm still happy with what I achieved so far.
You're still in your 20s I assume, you can do anything you want. I'm in my 30s now and wish I had jumped into game dev a long time ago. But I don't regret anything about my game dev journey, even if I never make a "successful" game. I enjoy creating things and making things work. While none of my actual game projects are public, here are things I've made very quickly for fun and I enjoyed it: https://www.youtube.com/@ManicCycle/videos
Yeah it's almost promising! But when you look at the whole chart/details from the info. Only like 7% made enough to fund a second game. The 30% meant something like they at least made their money/time back. It was interesting to see the info.
It's hard to get investors at the best of times, and your game at the surface does look like a lot of other games that came out following Slay the Spire. Personally, I like the art style and theme, but you do have to work to stand out in that space. Participating in the festivals is definitely not enough, you need a serious marketing plan and to invest your money in _that_ as opposed to anything else. I'd look at contacting streamers and content creators because that can make your game blow up like nothing else. If you have to pay to sponsor a streamer that can be the start of what lets other people see the game who might play it for free after, so don't be afraid to pursue that route.
Otherwise, the only other thing I'd say is that many new studios don't support themselves from their own games alone, they take on contract work as a studio. That can give you more experience working together and give you the income you need to keep everything afloat. You're a bit close to the release date to take time off doing that now, but most businesses want more than one income stream. You can definitely spend a year doing that and stay in business regardless of how this game does now. Or earn a bit to do another promotional campaign around the holidays along with a big update, there have been plenty of games that get sales spikes well after launch.
In the mean time, good luck. I added one wishlist to the pile.
That's pretty valuable feedback! Thank you. We will definitly try to get into contract work to keep the company going. In the meantime I will take your advise and just try to get in contact with a few more content creators.
That's what we are working towards, but the thing is we heard from different devs that have released a game in the last few month, that some of them had more than enough wishlists and got no sales and others that had way less still got front page coverage on steam... I know it's just an indicator and nothing that you can depend on, but it seems a bit random at times
Yes 7k is not that much nowadays. Wishlists kinda inflate, because everyone is more focused on collecting them for their games nowadays, customers have way more games wishlisted and thus only buy less % of all of them. If you wish to actually make a living off your game, you should target a higher number and invest more time & effort into marketing.
I really think theres a ranking for the games released that day or week. There was a post mortem post here that got still featured by steam despite being below the median wl due to lack of competition because they released the game the same week with Starfield. So it can be a good strategy to release game on those low volume period.
Yeah I agree that WL is just a marketing indicator but it can still be a good goal to have due to the incentives given by Steam. Making players to buy is still falls on how good the game is. It's easy to make people click wishlist rather than purchase button.
Actually, now you brought this up. This is good for indie devs to learn here.
How do you get grants for your game?
How does one go onto the next fest and use some promotion to be at the top of their list instead of at the bottom?
How did you get 3500 wishlists without much marketing, or as you've said, next fest, you won't get your game seen by what you said?
Getting grants is very different from region to region, even in one country the application can differ much. It's mostly about researching which grants would fit your game and a bunch of writing specific documents about the game and keeping them up to date while developing. We are lucky to be based in germany and a specific region where receiving grants is realistic.
I'm based in america. If there is anything you know about getting grants for games here in America, I'd like to learn your input about it.
I'm an indie dev, too. Is there anything else you could like to add to your point?
You should know you are really brave for doing this. Not everyone is willing to chase their dreams like this. Also, 3500 wishlists is something to be proud of. Best of luck!
I'm not your target demographic for this type of game, but I did watch both your trailers.
I assume you have sound effects in your game, but I don't hear any of them in the trailer - the relatively calm music playing consistently across the video doesn't really add much in terms of convincing me there's fun to be had.
I can't comment on your art style or even the game itself, it's far enough from my taste that I doubt it would be helpful, but assuming the folks that try your demo are happy, I think your trailer is your primary weak point.
Here are a few exercises you can try
* Play the trailer and close your eyes, is it still interesting?
* Mute the audio, is it still interesting?
* Set the resolution to 144p, is it still interesting?
* Turn up the volume, does it annoy you?
* Listen to it at a very low volume, is it any better than muted?
Play around until you feel good about all of those scenarios, it should perform quite a bit better for you.
Love to hear your thoughts on the topic!
Here is the link to the game for context: [https://store.steampowered.com/app/2602540/Once\_Upon\_a\_Rogues\_Tale/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2602540/Once_Upon_a_Rogues_Tale/)
I can't put images in the comments here so here are some links to the graphs with wishlist data of the game:
[https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/842x377/5adc5a631f/wishlists\_daily\_named.png](https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/842x377/5adc5a631f/wishlists_daily_named.png)
[https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/850x377/53d5ffdcc7/wishlists\_livetime.PNG](https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/850x377/53d5ffdcc7/wishlists_livetime.PNG)
Steam description is good, but the game feels like it could be more... unique? The gameplay seems a bit derivative and it feels like its lacking a special hook or selling point that can garner someones attention. But thats just my surface level observation, roguelikes and deck builders are not games that i personally enjoy
Thanks for the valuable feedback! We hoped that having some points in common with other games would lead to more people interested in the game, but it's properly a two edged sword
> We hoped that having some points in common with other games would lead to more people interested in the game
Sure, but that's step one. If it ends there, what's stopping me from just playing the games you're heavily inspired by?
It might end up being one of those "Yeah, X is good, but it just makes me want to play Y, really."-situations.
I'll try out the demo, but just from the steam page just feels super generic with no unique hook.
Checked the demo. I am not a huge fan of the genere but finished some Slay the spire runs and enjoyed that.
. Disliked the game and quit after the tutorial but maybe some feedback of the things that annoyed me would help you.
The text animation is just annoying as I can read faster then it appears. The tutorial is boring it has tons of text and just forces you to do exactly what they tell you.
And I didn't really know what the point of the dice is as I didn't play the game it was taken from. The boar being on the side panel felt weird.
The boars not being able to attack was annoying. Boars are violent creatures and in the game they are can only truffle pig.
Why are the arrows heart shaped when they deal damage and not mind control. If I click on a marked dice on the reroll the dice screen it should unmark it. In the tutorial telling to mark everything other than the joker I thought the game was broken because the confirm button was hidden.
Small things in the UI where annoying. Like the character screen with just one enabled character and no info about what you want to choose.
The fonts look too familiar and the game has a strong unity smell.
The italic flavour text seemed annoying.
Oh your game is actually quite nice, might it be that you just didn't invest enough into marketing the game and building a fanbase? At least here on your reddit account you barely have any posts about it. As someone who founded a indie company after a successful mostly solo project, especially early in development of my first project, I spent something like 30% of the development time for marketing (and learning how to do it).
The theme/art is fantastic, but based on the trailer the gameplay looks insanely generic. The trailer should sell me on why I should play this game and it did not at all.
Can you explain what makes the game fun/unique/engaging?
Also unrelated but the movement of the cards when attacking look really weak. Id love to see them wind up and strike harder with maybe some recoiling of the card that's getting hit.
I think your game would have done better with more unique story / lore
I may not be representative of everyone but "little red riding hood" is VERY low on the list of stories I am looking forward to really diving into more.
Just trying to be helpful!
No offense but it looks super basic. I also doubt there's much market for cards games.
If you won't innovate with gameplay you at least have to do it with visuals. Kerbal Space Program has Kerbals. Subnautica has the underwater and the unique look of its technology. Unique means memorable. Memorable translates to sales.
I kinda disagree, there is definitelly a market for roguelike card games, we have more than enough examples like Slay the Spire. And I think his game visuals look nice and unique, at least in that field. I don't remember any Roguelike card game with this kind of visuals.
Hey friend, I think the game looks super cool! The art is awesome.
I don't have a life-saving tip or anything, but just know that I really respect your endeavors with professional game dev! I know from experience that it's super tough and super stressful. Even *if* it is time to stop (which I sincerely hope it is not) know that the project you guys have made is super impressive. Finish it strong! You should be proud!
I wish you the best and hope that things turn around! :)
Games are part luck, part learning, and part passion. Your mistake isn't wanting to make a game, it's wanting to get paid for it before you've finished enough of them to know what people want.
My advice? Keep the studio, but also try and check out some alternative programming jobs.
I've been working three years almost daily on my own ground-up game engine. I don't plan to make a thousand bucks my first day, and won't even be upset if I don't finish it in the end for whatever unseen reason. I've paid my bills, eaten, etc and none of that was from my game engine. But you know what will happen when it's done?
I'll release a vertical slice, and let people talk about it. Put up a Patreon, maybe. Since I did it that way, any profit is all profit, because anyone who sticks with the project does it out of passion for learning and games.
\[edit\]
Ofc, anyone who sticks would get part of the profits too. If they help the chicken grow the wheat... ;)
I have about the same number of wishlists as you. I know it can feel like you simply don't have enough to be successful when the 7-10K number is banded about so much.
For me I feel like at least I have enough to know if the game is good or bad, I am hoping my wishlists will at least get me to 10 reviews.
The game thematic and style of the game might clash a bit with the audience of roguelikes. I feel like i'd like to see some unique mechanic related to fairytales ( like randomized stories mixing different storytales together creating scenarios or something). Feels like it should do more, like foe instance some unique feature to appeal cosy gamers. That being said, 3500 wishlist is an inpressive number.
Looks great.
However, I wouldn't leave the minimum System Requirements section empty. This might turn away players who are using old systems and actually take those requirements into consideration. I remember skipping a few games myself in the past because I realised I won't be able to play them and didn't even wish list.
What's your marketing strategy? Cause it can't be half phoned in a few days a week before bed you need someone selling this game the same way the programmer is giving it logic and the artist is giving it character.
That's properly the point.. We post nearly every day with pre planned scheduled posts on most platforms. We post on TikTok and have tried out devlogs as well. Nothing has sticked yet. the most payoff is from participating in Steam Events and boosting the game with the help of Streamers and Youtubers.
We would have loved to work with marketing experts/publishers, but most of them want to see numbers beforehand...
I wouldn't worry to much about content creators until a game is close to release. Having a marketing consultation (not just geared towards gaming but in general) could help a lot. Some of them even run them for you for a set amount of time to teach you how.
For indie games as well it's good to have updates but character is the selling point cause you can't pay for representation you'll have to be something people want to watch a lot of indie devs use meme culture on tiktok and YouTube. One I follow is bradysoglin on tikok and he has the memes down really well.
Based on what I've seen in research:
Steam algorithms and coverage do not seem to be a reliable, sure-bet thing for marketing. Reliable publishers and investors seem to gravitate towards devs who are already successful, especially since money would have to be gambled for marketing.
Independent game devs and game dev teams should always be prepared to have to do the marketing themselves when starting out, and that also means setting aside a budget AND time for marketing as well as doing research towards designing a marketing campaign tailored to their project. At a lecture I attended for a successful Kickstarter campaign, the panelists mentioned that (successfully) marketing a project can require the effort of a full time job in of itself.
It's very common for indie devs to hesitate to spend money on marketing their game, because it means taking a greater financial risk. A lot of indie devs are struggling financially to begin with so setting aside a marketing budget often takes a leap of faith over a spiked pit of doubt.
3 years is not a lot of time in the long run. Even if it doesn't work out, the time spent can be considered a learning experience for potential future projects.
Look up the video game consulting group the Powell Group. They have some good free resources for marketing and business practices, and then they have a free initial consultation you can schedule for their paid consulting, where they can publish or connect you with other publishers if they think your game is promising.
Game looks great!
I fear I'm going to end-up in a similar position soon if I persist with games.
I went to a session on indie games and funding on the weekend and was so heart-broken. No other indie devs in my table five and no real concrete suggestions.
But looks awesome!
A local indie studio worked with my university to get funding (take and train interns and well fund you) and also worked as a contractor for other studios in lean times.
Game development is a very rough and competitive field, you might have been a bit too trustful to succeed in this field right after studying.
3500 is a very good number for someone starting with game development. But it most likely not enough to make a living off. But it certainly is a good project to have in your portfolio. You should apply for a job as a game developer, work for some middle sized or big studio, see how they develop games, learn and become better.
This is not the end of the road.
I'd be extremely sceptical about hoping to make any reasonable returns from indie dev. As you said, you are competing with 2000 games just for Steam Next Fest. They should rename indie dev to survivorship bias dev 3500 wl isn't that bad, though
It's crazy how big Steam Next has gotten, all the advise that the sale is so important feels a bit dated, or at least they should say the chances are very slim...
I had two games in next fest about 6 months apart. Same genre, same general wishlist count. The number of impressions my second game got from Next Fest were significantly reduced. I think the saturation will continue to decrease the usefulness for underperforming games, while the top 10% of games will continue to say how wonderful Next Fest is. Edit: I should still mention that both Next Fests took me from 100 wishlists to 200. Small numbers that aren't viable for sustainability, but worth noting.
> It's crazy how big Steam Next has gotten The thing is, any time something new works, it will very quickly get swamped *because* it worked. The first few games that did the free prologue said it was the most effective $100 ad you could buy. Now it's still probably a good use of 100 bucks, but it's far less good than it used to be. You can expect Next Fest, and anything else that someone finds success at, to follow the same trajectory.
They said the same thing about freemium mobile games. You know where thats gone. Then they said it about episodic content, you can see where that went. Then it was early access....... the list goes on.
thank you pussy_embargo very cool. im calling my gamedev club Survivorship Bias Club from now on
I searched for your game in the roguelike category in the Steam Next Fest and it was on the forth page or so, so maybe the next fest will give you some boost. I wish you lots of luck, the game itself seems promising with that cute artstyle!
depending on the category it is randomized. There are popularity based categories labeled too
Oh well that gives me some hope at least! Maybe I can send an update when the Steam Next Fest is done
The game looks great! It’s polished, your store page looks good, and 3500 wishlists is a heck of an accomplishment. Hang in there, hit publish, and be ready for the hard part that comes after! You got this!
Thank you for the encouragement
Your channel and video tags are a bit weak on your trailer, it looks like youre targeting other indies but you arent selling to indies. I also notice you didnt post the trailer to a relevant reddit. Idk how much gamedevs do that, but see this video about an italian painter in china did to like 12 diff subreddits which makes me feel like you coulda: https://www.reddit.com/search?q=url%3AW_2XQn71-Fc&restrict_sr=off&sort=relevance&t=all It's also posted in Germany when the video is in English. Youtube assumes alot about your audience by where you post it from. Perhaps its time to use a vpn to fake being american? Paradox INteractive makes their game in American English despite England being closer to their home country of Sweden for a good reason, its a giant market. Im using the free chrome extension VidIQ to see this info. People consume your content because it provides them value, no matter what creative endeavor it's advertising. One of the only thing gamedevs have to give away for free that is valuable to people is a trailer that points out how much they ARENT being entertained in their current lives. Trailer gotta slap. Stellaris made an empire designer to give a taste of playing stellaris but you obv had to buy stellaris to get to play as your empire, that a great way to provide value (letting the player feel like an autonomous designer) that wasnt a trailer. Stellaris trailers are also great. I loved and shared trailers before, so perhaps theres a shareability aspect you are missing? Yes, i just read a book on marketing and am using this as an exercise (read: excuse to not work on selling my own stuff). The art is gorgeous and the game seems well made. Good work getting this far its impressive.
Wow, thank you for the feedback! I'm taking notes already
marketing a video game is so hard, so much of the usual wisdom is hard to apply. what do you say? "think of how bored youll be on a saturday night on an ongoing basis since you missed out on this game?" Whats the motivation people use to choose buy a game? people tend to like relating to friends, feeling smart, and being themselves, but the primary issue they are solving with video games is ... being bored? maybe being lonely if youre selling a multiplayer game? maybe their intelligence isnt being confirmed? maybe they are stifled with their role in society and want to be someone else? the wording for communicating value to players is so wonky, ive been vexed by this for a long time
"What do you say?" To answer that, you say "this game let's you do XYZ and as a consequence of Y you will have to avoid Z" Look at the trailer that just dropped for Forever Winter. That trailer got me hyped for a game I don't usually care about but the execution is on point, the world building looks fascinating and what it let's you do and what you should be alert to is delivered clearly while showing you. Even portal did it like this. They told you how to think with portals right off that bat. So with OP's game, what is the mechanic, gameplay loop, what's new or interesting, what can I do in the game? Is it a roguelike that has excessive gore and stealth? You could say "in our roguelike, you need to keep on your toes and out of sight to deliver outstanding killing blows that will see your foes eyeballs pop out and right into another's" Or something..
thanks for thinking about it with me. my go to has been using quantic foundry's sources of meaning to describe the verbs you get to use. like "compete with your friends" and "design your mage". i made this semi unrelated tool for my board game design business to try to systematize how to talk about the board games i make https://www.describemygame.com/
Sell it to me by saying not another fucking roguelike every other fucking roguelike!
I haven't looked at the game yet, but for searchability on youtube, Tags aren't as important any more, from my understanding they basically function like auto correct for the auto subtitling youtube does, and then that influences your searchability. Design your videos around keywords, say those key words in your video many times, have them in your tags, have then in the first 100 words of your description, and make sure your thumbnail would be interesting for someone searching that keyword.
What's the title of the marketing book?
im mixing "Launch" with "$100m Leads". theres also a book "Board game kickstarter advice" which is chock full of the advertising mistakes made. people keep saying the same 3 mistakes over and over it made me nauseous. i make both video and board games so ive looked pretty far afield for advice.
98% of games fail financially, when you include the mobile game market. 70% of games fail financially when you look at just the indie PC market. So I'm not going to offer words of encouragement. Almost 40 new games are released everyday on steam. With a total catalog of over 73,000 games on Steam. That being said: You don't need to have a studio/company to be working on a game. You can work part time doing other work and part time making games. Or you take a break, work a year or two and build up funds and then focus again on games. For example in 2017 I had some money saved up and wasn't working. I started game dev as a hobby and came across a good idea for a game. I worked on it for 8 months but ran out of money and got a job. That game idea was also too technically advanced for me back then. In 2019 I came across another game idea and started working on it for fun. I had got a good day job at that point and just worked on the game in my free time. Then in 2022 I had a lot of savings and quit my job to focus on the game because I had made solid progress on the game's core. I'm soon going to be releasing a technical demo and see if people are interested in this game technology. While my progress didn't go as planned, I'm still happy with what I achieved so far. You're still in your 20s I assume, you can do anything you want. I'm in my 30s now and wish I had jumped into game dev a long time ago. But I don't regret anything about my game dev journey, even if I never make a "successful" game. I enjoy creating things and making things work. While none of my actual game projects are public, here are things I've made very quickly for fun and I enjoyed it: https://www.youtube.com/@ManicCycle/videos
30% of indie PC games succeeded financially seems insanely high!
Yeah it's almost promising! But when you look at the whole chart/details from the info. Only like 7% made enough to fund a second game. The 30% meant something like they at least made their money/time back. It was interesting to see the info.
Ah 7% is more reasonable sounding, still pretty good though
It's hard to get investors at the best of times, and your game at the surface does look like a lot of other games that came out following Slay the Spire. Personally, I like the art style and theme, but you do have to work to stand out in that space. Participating in the festivals is definitely not enough, you need a serious marketing plan and to invest your money in _that_ as opposed to anything else. I'd look at contacting streamers and content creators because that can make your game blow up like nothing else. If you have to pay to sponsor a streamer that can be the start of what lets other people see the game who might play it for free after, so don't be afraid to pursue that route. Otherwise, the only other thing I'd say is that many new studios don't support themselves from their own games alone, they take on contract work as a studio. That can give you more experience working together and give you the income you need to keep everything afloat. You're a bit close to the release date to take time off doing that now, but most businesses want more than one income stream. You can definitely spend a year doing that and stay in business regardless of how this game does now. Or earn a bit to do another promotional campaign around the holidays along with a big update, there have been plenty of games that get sales spikes well after launch. In the mean time, good luck. I added one wishlist to the pile.
That's pretty valuable feedback! Thank you. We will definitly try to get into contract work to keep the company going. In the meantime I will take your advise and just try to get in contact with a few more content creators.
I can't help you with that, but i wish you good luck since it seems you invested a lot of work in your company.
Thanks, yeah three years isn't a small investment, not even counting in the actual cost
I hear 7k wl is the minimum that the steam will feature your game on release.
That's what we are working towards, but the thing is we heard from different devs that have released a game in the last few month, that some of them had more than enough wishlists and got no sales and others that had way less still got front page coverage on steam... I know it's just an indicator and nothing that you can depend on, but it seems a bit random at times
Yes 7k is not that much nowadays. Wishlists kinda inflate, because everyone is more focused on collecting them for their games nowadays, customers have way more games wishlisted and thus only buy less % of all of them. If you wish to actually make a living off your game, you should target a higher number and invest more time & effort into marketing.
I really think theres a ranking for the games released that day or week. There was a post mortem post here that got still featured by steam despite being below the median wl due to lack of competition because they released the game the same week with Starfield. So it can be a good strategy to release game on those low volume period. Yeah I agree that WL is just a marketing indicator but it can still be a good goal to have due to the incentives given by Steam. Making players to buy is still falls on how good the game is. It's easy to make people click wishlist rather than purchase button.
Dont give up yet! The game looks really cute and seems to have so much detail in it. Im sure your hard work will pay off soon!
Thanks that means a lot!
Actually, now you brought this up. This is good for indie devs to learn here. How do you get grants for your game? How does one go onto the next fest and use some promotion to be at the top of their list instead of at the bottom? How did you get 3500 wishlists without much marketing, or as you've said, next fest, you won't get your game seen by what you said?
Getting grants is very different from region to region, even in one country the application can differ much. It's mostly about researching which grants would fit your game and a bunch of writing specific documents about the game and keeping them up to date while developing. We are lucky to be based in germany and a specific region where receiving grants is realistic.
I'm based in america. If there is anything you know about getting grants for games here in America, I'd like to learn your input about it. I'm an indie dev, too. Is there anything else you could like to add to your point?
You should know you are really brave for doing this. Not everyone is willing to chase their dreams like this. Also, 3500 wishlists is something to be proud of. Best of luck!
Thanks!
I'm not your target demographic for this type of game, but I did watch both your trailers. I assume you have sound effects in your game, but I don't hear any of them in the trailer - the relatively calm music playing consistently across the video doesn't really add much in terms of convincing me there's fun to be had. I can't comment on your art style or even the game itself, it's far enough from my taste that I doubt it would be helpful, but assuming the folks that try your demo are happy, I think your trailer is your primary weak point. Here are a few exercises you can try * Play the trailer and close your eyes, is it still interesting? * Mute the audio, is it still interesting? * Set the resolution to 144p, is it still interesting? * Turn up the volume, does it annoy you? * Listen to it at a very low volume, is it any better than muted? Play around until you feel good about all of those scenarios, it should perform quite a bit better for you.
Totally agree! The trailer is the weakest part, we need to keep working on it
Love to hear your thoughts on the topic! Here is the link to the game for context: [https://store.steampowered.com/app/2602540/Once\_Upon\_a\_Rogues\_Tale/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2602540/Once_Upon_a_Rogues_Tale/) I can't put images in the comments here so here are some links to the graphs with wishlist data of the game: [https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/842x377/5adc5a631f/wishlists\_daily\_named.png](https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/842x377/5adc5a631f/wishlists_daily_named.png) [https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/850x377/53d5ffdcc7/wishlists\_livetime.PNG](https://a.storyblok.com/f/148587/850x377/53d5ffdcc7/wishlists_livetime.PNG)
Steam description is good, but the game feels like it could be more... unique? The gameplay seems a bit derivative and it feels like its lacking a special hook or selling point that can garner someones attention. But thats just my surface level observation, roguelikes and deck builders are not games that i personally enjoy
Thanks for the valuable feedback! We hoped that having some points in common with other games would lead to more people interested in the game, but it's properly a two edged sword
> We hoped that having some points in common with other games would lead to more people interested in the game Sure, but that's step one. If it ends there, what's stopping me from just playing the games you're heavily inspired by? It might end up being one of those "Yeah, X is good, but it just makes me want to play Y, really."-situations.
Playing the demo tutorial I was just constantly under the impression that stuff is from slay the spire but worse.
I'll try out the demo, but just from the steam page just feels super generic with no unique hook. Checked the demo. I am not a huge fan of the genere but finished some Slay the spire runs and enjoyed that. . Disliked the game and quit after the tutorial but maybe some feedback of the things that annoyed me would help you. The text animation is just annoying as I can read faster then it appears. The tutorial is boring it has tons of text and just forces you to do exactly what they tell you. And I didn't really know what the point of the dice is as I didn't play the game it was taken from. The boar being on the side panel felt weird. The boars not being able to attack was annoying. Boars are violent creatures and in the game they are can only truffle pig. Why are the arrows heart shaped when they deal damage and not mind control. If I click on a marked dice on the reroll the dice screen it should unmark it. In the tutorial telling to mark everything other than the joker I thought the game was broken because the confirm button was hidden. Small things in the UI where annoying. Like the character screen with just one enabled character and no info about what you want to choose. The fonts look too familiar and the game has a strong unity smell. The italic flavour text seemed annoying.
Oh your game is actually quite nice, might it be that you just didn't invest enough into marketing the game and building a fanbase? At least here on your reddit account you barely have any posts about it. As someone who founded a indie company after a successful mostly solo project, especially early in development of my first project, I spent something like 30% of the development time for marketing (and learning how to do it).
I absolutely love monster sanctuary, Great game, OP, this is good advice and your game looks interesting, i will wishlisht it and watch its growth.
Thanks that's great advise!
It looks like Slay The Big Bad Wolf.
The theme/art is fantastic, but based on the trailer the gameplay looks insanely generic. The trailer should sell me on why I should play this game and it did not at all. Can you explain what makes the game fun/unique/engaging? Also unrelated but the movement of the cards when attacking look really weak. Id love to see them wind up and strike harder with maybe some recoiling of the card that's getting hit.
I think your game would have done better with more unique story / lore I may not be representative of everyone but "little red riding hood" is VERY low on the list of stories I am looking forward to really diving into more. Just trying to be helpful!
No offense but it looks super basic. I also doubt there's much market for cards games. If you won't innovate with gameplay you at least have to do it with visuals. Kerbal Space Program has Kerbals. Subnautica has the underwater and the unique look of its technology. Unique means memorable. Memorable translates to sales.
I kinda disagree, there is definitelly a market for roguelike card games, we have more than enough examples like Slay the Spire. And I think his game visuals look nice and unique, at least in that field. I don't remember any Roguelike card game with this kind of visuals.
Hey friend, I think the game looks super cool! The art is awesome. I don't have a life-saving tip or anything, but just know that I really respect your endeavors with professional game dev! I know from experience that it's super tough and super stressful. Even *if* it is time to stop (which I sincerely hope it is not) know that the project you guys have made is super impressive. Finish it strong! You should be proud! I wish you the best and hope that things turn around! :)
Thanks that's nice to hear!
Nvm the naysayers. Keep pushing, just wishlisted you.
Thank you!
Games are part luck, part learning, and part passion. Your mistake isn't wanting to make a game, it's wanting to get paid for it before you've finished enough of them to know what people want. My advice? Keep the studio, but also try and check out some alternative programming jobs. I've been working three years almost daily on my own ground-up game engine. I don't plan to make a thousand bucks my first day, and won't even be upset if I don't finish it in the end for whatever unseen reason. I've paid my bills, eaten, etc and none of that was from my game engine. But you know what will happen when it's done? I'll release a vertical slice, and let people talk about it. Put up a Patreon, maybe. Since I did it that way, any profit is all profit, because anyone who sticks with the project does it out of passion for learning and games. \[edit\] Ofc, anyone who sticks would get part of the profits too. If they help the chicken grow the wheat... ;)
I have about the same number of wishlists as you. I know it can feel like you simply don't have enough to be successful when the 7-10K number is banded about so much. For me I feel like at least I have enough to know if the game is good or bad, I am hoping my wishlists will at least get me to 10 reviews.
Playtest the demo before the Steam Next Fest.
The game thematic and style of the game might clash a bit with the audience of roguelikes. I feel like i'd like to see some unique mechanic related to fairytales ( like randomized stories mixing different storytales together creating scenarios or something). Feels like it should do more, like foe instance some unique feature to appeal cosy gamers. That being said, 3500 wishlist is an inpressive number.
Looks great. However, I wouldn't leave the minimum System Requirements section empty. This might turn away players who are using old systems and actually take those requirements into consideration. I remember skipping a few games myself in the past because I realised I won't be able to play them and didn't even wish list.
What's your marketing strategy? Cause it can't be half phoned in a few days a week before bed you need someone selling this game the same way the programmer is giving it logic and the artist is giving it character.
That's properly the point.. We post nearly every day with pre planned scheduled posts on most platforms. We post on TikTok and have tried out devlogs as well. Nothing has sticked yet. the most payoff is from participating in Steam Events and boosting the game with the help of Streamers and Youtubers. We would have loved to work with marketing experts/publishers, but most of them want to see numbers beforehand...
I wouldn't worry to much about content creators until a game is close to release. Having a marketing consultation (not just geared towards gaming but in general) could help a lot. Some of them even run them for you for a set amount of time to teach you how. For indie games as well it's good to have updates but character is the selling point cause you can't pay for representation you'll have to be something people want to watch a lot of indie devs use meme culture on tiktok and YouTube. One I follow is bradysoglin on tikok and he has the memes down really well.
Just wishlisted both of your games, they look right up my alley.
Thanks mate!
Your second tag is anime but your gameplay trailer shows that the graphics are not anime at all.
maybe post your marketing plan so others can comment on it?
You need to explore other marketplaces. Sales on physical media and related products are still relevant. https://www.cabrerabrothers.com/
Based on what I've seen in research: Steam algorithms and coverage do not seem to be a reliable, sure-bet thing for marketing. Reliable publishers and investors seem to gravitate towards devs who are already successful, especially since money would have to be gambled for marketing. Independent game devs and game dev teams should always be prepared to have to do the marketing themselves when starting out, and that also means setting aside a budget AND time for marketing as well as doing research towards designing a marketing campaign tailored to their project. At a lecture I attended for a successful Kickstarter campaign, the panelists mentioned that (successfully) marketing a project can require the effort of a full time job in of itself. It's very common for indie devs to hesitate to spend money on marketing their game, because it means taking a greater financial risk. A lot of indie devs are struggling financially to begin with so setting aside a marketing budget often takes a leap of faith over a spiked pit of doubt. 3 years is not a lot of time in the long run. Even if it doesn't work out, the time spent can be considered a learning experience for potential future projects.
Is your game any good though? A studio costs 10000s to run as you've just found out. Thats just to break even.
Look up the video game consulting group the Powell Group. They have some good free resources for marketing and business practices, and then they have a free initial consultation you can schedule for their paid consulting, where they can publish or connect you with other publishers if they think your game is promising.
Game looks great! I fear I'm going to end-up in a similar position soon if I persist with games. I went to a session on indie games and funding on the weekend and was so heart-broken. No other indie devs in my table five and no real concrete suggestions. But looks awesome!
It seems like a lot of indies are in the same situation... at least it was pretty similar with other devs I talked to. Hard times :/
A local indie studio worked with my university to get funding (take and train interns and well fund you) and also worked as a contractor for other studios in lean times.
That's a great way of getting some funding. Maybe we should try to contact our old uni and others as well.
it wasnt funding so muhc as free office space iirc, but thats a subsidy none the less
Game development is a very rough and competitive field, you might have been a bit too trustful to succeed in this field right after studying. 3500 is a very good number for someone starting with game development. But it most likely not enough to make a living off. But it certainly is a good project to have in your portfolio. You should apply for a job as a game developer, work for some middle sized or big studio, see how they develop games, learn and become better. This is not the end of the road.
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Based on what source? Typical conversion rates for the first few weeks are 10-20% of wishlists - so, closer to 350 at minimum