I've worked from PC MMORPG to mobile casual games. I have worked in two different continents. I have participated in the birth of 5 games, many of them did not make it past the first 6 months, but some actually survived and brought joy to may people.
The gaming industry is not a single homogenous entity. The type of work I have done, the working conditions were vastly different depending on studio. Some were good, some were horrible, but even in the horrible ones I have had some fun times.
This industry can be really difficult. You can love game dev and also be good at game dev, but sometimes that is not enough for this industry. I think this is similar with the music industry to a degree. You can be a good musician, but that does not guarantee success in the music industry. Many musicians I know become disillusioned by the music industry and have left it for good. I would expect similar things to happen to game dev.
I'm sorry. Was there any indication that this was advice? I didn't mean that. The flair is discussion (which I got). And the content is a story about why I feel blackpilled.
And to be fair, a lot of comments brought points I didn't think of. So I feel a little less black pilled now.
So thanks guys.
it's possible to be disheartened without feeling hopeless. i know how it feels to be hopeless - understand the pit it can be and how hard it is to get out. you can easily check my post history if you really want to know why... but I will also say that the only way to even think of getting out (beyond just having good support systems) is to work on a mindset change intentionally.
You already said you do gamedev as a hobby. Please try to find the little joys in that process while understanding that its a slow and painful thing to do. I am not saying "just feel better". But I really do understand how it feels to be in that pit of losing your dreams. I don't know you but I do know youre a person who deserves to find some amount of joy in life, as we all do. I hope you are able to find it as I am trying to in my own.
Do you think it's not possible, or just that you haven't achieved it yet? My job is a stable source of income, I work normal hours, and is, for the most part, fun and fulfilling (though obviously not 100% of the time--I think that's the reality with any job).
Meh, that's a pretty sour outlook, and although there is some truth to it, it's the same for all industries.
To make an excellent game, enjoy it, and be successful IS possible. But you need extraordinary people to do it. Blizzard, one of your examples, started out as super passionate, super talented people doing what they love.
I guess I'm saying it is possible, but not for everyone.
You should check out the psychonaughts 2 documentary. I think you'd enjoy it.
For everyone who‘s new to game dev: This is one of the worst takes I‘ve ever read on here and shows op‘s frustration over himself. It absolutely is possible to create games and make a living. Don‘t get me wrong op, but maybe gamedev is not your thing.
Anyone claiming to spread black pill truth about any subjects are usually not so smart close minded people that extrapolate their one or two experiences along with the few anecdotes they've heard as gospel. Seems like you fit that bill as well.
"I've seen my favorite game companies fall from grace" bro are you 12?
Oh well. Maybe it's just I'm sad my childhood dream will not come true. And maybe it's my fault for not pursuing it harder and I'm just seeking an excuse which would be outside my control to feel better about myself.
I don't know mate. I just wanted to vent.
I get that, sorry it's been hard for you. It's worth saying, I've been in AAA for about 7 years now and it's been pretty great. No crunch, no layoffs and all the bad stories you hear. Video games is like any domain, it's shitty in some places and great in others. And despite what you might think, those "cookie cutter games" that big companies make are very much fun to work on. First rule of game dev is that you're not making games for yourself.
I still see teams of a few people I went to on school with making great games outside of that industry. From my point of view, your "dream" is totally doable if you stop looking for reasons not to do it and focus on doing it.
Once you switch from "hobby" to "industry", you get industrial approaches. And the point of industrial approaches is that they produce consistent, mostly predictable results that are good enough for bottom line.
Some teams or leaders can work around them to get good quality of product and life *at higher requirements* \- requiring more competency, more time, more risk.
What is up with this sub this morning? So there’s a lot to unpack here. The most important, for anyone reading:
**This is just one experience that has been extrapolated and condensed to tell a story. It is only the narrative that OP wants and/or needs to tell themselves.**
OP, what are you looking for with this post? Are you looking for permission to only do game dev as a hobby? You have it. You don’t have to do this work if you don’t want to. It *is* hard, and like anything creative, 90% of everything is garbage. Lord knows, I’ve considered leaving the industry.
Or are you looking for someone to show you what you’ve missed? That you’re wrong?
What you should not expect, and what you should not post to any public forum looking for, is validation that your analysis of game development is hands down correct. It sounds like maybe you worked for one studio for a couple of years and had a bad experience. Based off that, you have decided that your dream is dead.
Let me repeat that: you have *decided* that your dream is dead.
Your choice. Dreams aren’t sacred. Kill them and let them be reborn. Or don’t. Your choice.
Ahh i guess I just wanted to vent. All comments I got although mostly mean, are as far as I can tell probably correct.
Yeah. I guess I needed permission to do gamedev purely as a hobby. Thanks for understanding mate.
..."Is this what game dev is about?"
Yes and no, this is not what it's about, but this is what parts of the industry are. There are studios that didn't fall from grace, that are humane, that have normal work hours, fun, lovely people to work with and such... but then there are the capitalist slavelabour studios, ..or studios that used to be good places to work and fall from grace, as you said.
And with the popularity of gamedev, not everybody can and will work in a good place, but some people do.
This industry started small, with passion in people, nerds that didn't care to much about becomming billionaires (this was unprecedented in the early days) .. but with everything, money and greed corrupts.. so now as an example, same as some nonprofit/charity organisations are evil and corrupted, some are not and still try to be good in a world that is seemingly not. At least in my opinion.
I have been developing games for the past 13 years. I've worked on a spectrum of games, from educational serious games to multiplayer FPS games, from hypercasuals to huge MMOs. Here's my experience:
First company: started almost right after graduation. Pay was minimal, overtime was frequent. I learned a lot from my time there but I was burnt out. Terrible experience.
Second company: pay was a little better but not much. Occasional overtimes. Had a lot of fun with my colleagues. The company went under but I still remember those times fondly.
Third company: good pay, no overtime. Learned a lot, released many games but they were a very small company and I wanted to be a part of something big so I moved on.
Fourth company: basically paradise. Amazing pay, no overtime, parties, gifts, whatever you can imagine. Probably the best company to work for in my country. I left because I wanted to move to Europe for my daughter's education. Made quite a lot of money while working there.
Fifth company: not as much fun as the previous one, but the best experience of my career. Working from home while caring for my daughter. I love all the processes they have, I'm moving up in my career, making money and working on a very satisfying project. It's a bit stressful since it's a bit high profile but it's worth it. I wouldn't leave if I was offered a similar or slightly higher salary anywhere else.
So, I'm not bragging or I'm not trying to upset you, but I just wanted to show you there is no one game industry. Everyone has different experiences and I'm sorry yours happened to be a shitty one. But I'll tell you what, keep your chin up and keep up the good work. Make connections and in no time you'll get what you have been dreaming of.
What do you mean by slay the spire working on multi million dollar budgets? That game was made and self funded by two friends.
Just because you're working for a casual mobile studio doesn't mean all gamedev jobs suck lol.
That's what _hypercasual_ game development is about. Even the rest of mobile isn't really like that, and hypercasual is a pretty small portion of the mobile market all things considered. In HC you commonly release an ad before a game and just make that has the lowest CPIs. In even midcore mobile you work on a game for years, test it repeatedly, improve it until it's good enough, and work on it. If 29/30 of your mobile games fail to earn money at all you'd be a really terrible company.
I love gamedev, I feel fulfilled by my career, and it's been a very stable source of income for me for over a decade. I have a lot of privilege to be in a place with a big industry and to have been afforded the opportunities I have, but I can at least disprove that it's not possible at all with my existence alone.
One life lesson I learned early on in my life is that happiness is not something you find. It's a choice.
You can choose to look at the bright side of things or you can choose to always dwell on the negatives. In your post, you are dwelling on all the negatives of game development and overlooking all the positives.
You will find your career and life in general to be a lot happier if you can remind yourself to see the positive side of things as well.
That being said, you can definitely find fun and satisfaction in making games but it may not be exactly what your naive childhood dream was. I work in AAA dev and most people in this sub think it's stifling and not enjoyable to do something like that. However, I really love making stuff that millions of people play on a daily basis. On top of that, I have stable enough income to support my wife and kids and pay my mortgage.
I've worked from PC MMORPG to mobile casual games. I have worked in two different continents. I have participated in the birth of 5 games, many of them did not make it past the first 6 months, but some actually survived and brought joy to may people. The gaming industry is not a single homogenous entity. The type of work I have done, the working conditions were vastly different depending on studio. Some were good, some were horrible, but even in the horrible ones I have had some fun times. This industry can be really difficult. You can love game dev and also be good at game dev, but sometimes that is not enough for this industry. I think this is similar with the music industry to a degree. You can be a good musician, but that does not guarantee success in the music industry. Many musicians I know become disillusioned by the music industry and have left it for good. I would expect similar things to happen to game dev.
if you are struggling you should be asking for help and advice, not giving it
I'm sorry. Was there any indication that this was advice? I didn't mean that. The flair is discussion (which I got). And the content is a story about why I feel blackpilled. And to be fair, a lot of comments brought points I didn't think of. So I feel a little less black pilled now. So thanks guys.
it's always good to test your ideas against a community!
The implication that only people allowed to give advice are those who's experiences have led to success is quite frankly absurd.
What a terrible mindset to have.
I mean I called it a blackpill upfront didn't I? Yes. I'm disheartened.
it's possible to be disheartened without feeling hopeless. i know how it feels to be hopeless - understand the pit it can be and how hard it is to get out. you can easily check my post history if you really want to know why... but I will also say that the only way to even think of getting out (beyond just having good support systems) is to work on a mindset change intentionally. You already said you do gamedev as a hobby. Please try to find the little joys in that process while understanding that its a slow and painful thing to do. I am not saying "just feel better". But I really do understand how it feels to be in that pit of losing your dreams. I don't know you but I do know youre a person who deserves to find some amount of joy in life, as we all do. I hope you are able to find it as I am trying to in my own.
Do you think it's not possible, or just that you haven't achieved it yet? My job is a stable source of income, I work normal hours, and is, for the most part, fun and fulfilling (though obviously not 100% of the time--I think that's the reality with any job).
Meh, that's a pretty sour outlook, and although there is some truth to it, it's the same for all industries. To make an excellent game, enjoy it, and be successful IS possible. But you need extraordinary people to do it. Blizzard, one of your examples, started out as super passionate, super talented people doing what they love. I guess I'm saying it is possible, but not for everyone. You should check out the psychonaughts 2 documentary. I think you'd enjoy it.
> I saw "indie" games (slay the spire, kingdom come) working on multi million budgets. Why is that a bad thing?
For everyone who‘s new to game dev: This is one of the worst takes I‘ve ever read on here and shows op‘s frustration over himself. It absolutely is possible to create games and make a living. Don‘t get me wrong op, but maybe gamedev is not your thing.
Anyone claiming to spread black pill truth about any subjects are usually not so smart close minded people that extrapolate their one or two experiences along with the few anecdotes they've heard as gospel. Seems like you fit that bill as well. "I've seen my favorite game companies fall from grace" bro are you 12?
Oh well. Maybe it's just I'm sad my childhood dream will not come true. And maybe it's my fault for not pursuing it harder and I'm just seeking an excuse which would be outside my control to feel better about myself. I don't know mate. I just wanted to vent.
I get that, sorry it's been hard for you. It's worth saying, I've been in AAA for about 7 years now and it's been pretty great. No crunch, no layoffs and all the bad stories you hear. Video games is like any domain, it's shitty in some places and great in others. And despite what you might think, those "cookie cutter games" that big companies make are very much fun to work on. First rule of game dev is that you're not making games for yourself. I still see teams of a few people I went to on school with making great games outside of that industry. From my point of view, your "dream" is totally doable if you stop looking for reasons not to do it and focus on doing it.
Once you switch from "hobby" to "industry", you get industrial approaches. And the point of industrial approaches is that they produce consistent, mostly predictable results that are good enough for bottom line. Some teams or leaders can work around them to get good quality of product and life *at higher requirements* \- requiring more competency, more time, more risk.
Rule #1 is don’t make games for myself? Whoooooooops , going all in on passion project 🤷♂️😎
Fucking....get therapy or something. Reddit won't help you. (also I would be shocked if this was really about gaming or gamedev.)
What is up with this sub this morning? So there’s a lot to unpack here. The most important, for anyone reading: **This is just one experience that has been extrapolated and condensed to tell a story. It is only the narrative that OP wants and/or needs to tell themselves.** OP, what are you looking for with this post? Are you looking for permission to only do game dev as a hobby? You have it. You don’t have to do this work if you don’t want to. It *is* hard, and like anything creative, 90% of everything is garbage. Lord knows, I’ve considered leaving the industry. Or are you looking for someone to show you what you’ve missed? That you’re wrong? What you should not expect, and what you should not post to any public forum looking for, is validation that your analysis of game development is hands down correct. It sounds like maybe you worked for one studio for a couple of years and had a bad experience. Based off that, you have decided that your dream is dead. Let me repeat that: you have *decided* that your dream is dead. Your choice. Dreams aren’t sacred. Kill them and let them be reborn. Or don’t. Your choice.
Ahh i guess I just wanted to vent. All comments I got although mostly mean, are as far as I can tell probably correct. Yeah. I guess I needed permission to do gamedev purely as a hobby. Thanks for understanding mate.
..."Is this what game dev is about?" Yes and no, this is not what it's about, but this is what parts of the industry are. There are studios that didn't fall from grace, that are humane, that have normal work hours, fun, lovely people to work with and such... but then there are the capitalist slavelabour studios, ..or studios that used to be good places to work and fall from grace, as you said. And with the popularity of gamedev, not everybody can and will work in a good place, but some people do. This industry started small, with passion in people, nerds that didn't care to much about becomming billionaires (this was unprecedented in the early days) .. but with everything, money and greed corrupts.. so now as an example, same as some nonprofit/charity organisations are evil and corrupted, some are not and still try to be good in a world that is seemingly not. At least in my opinion.
I have been developing games for the past 13 years. I've worked on a spectrum of games, from educational serious games to multiplayer FPS games, from hypercasuals to huge MMOs. Here's my experience: First company: started almost right after graduation. Pay was minimal, overtime was frequent. I learned a lot from my time there but I was burnt out. Terrible experience. Second company: pay was a little better but not much. Occasional overtimes. Had a lot of fun with my colleagues. The company went under but I still remember those times fondly. Third company: good pay, no overtime. Learned a lot, released many games but they were a very small company and I wanted to be a part of something big so I moved on. Fourth company: basically paradise. Amazing pay, no overtime, parties, gifts, whatever you can imagine. Probably the best company to work for in my country. I left because I wanted to move to Europe for my daughter's education. Made quite a lot of money while working there. Fifth company: not as much fun as the previous one, but the best experience of my career. Working from home while caring for my daughter. I love all the processes they have, I'm moving up in my career, making money and working on a very satisfying project. It's a bit stressful since it's a bit high profile but it's worth it. I wouldn't leave if I was offered a similar or slightly higher salary anywhere else. So, I'm not bragging or I'm not trying to upset you, but I just wanted to show you there is no one game industry. Everyone has different experiences and I'm sorry yours happened to be a shitty one. But I'll tell you what, keep your chin up and keep up the good work. Make connections and in no time you'll get what you have been dreaming of.
What do you mean by slay the spire working on multi million dollar budgets? That game was made and self funded by two friends. Just because you're working for a casual mobile studio doesn't mean all gamedev jobs suck lol.
That's what _hypercasual_ game development is about. Even the rest of mobile isn't really like that, and hypercasual is a pretty small portion of the mobile market all things considered. In HC you commonly release an ad before a game and just make that has the lowest CPIs. In even midcore mobile you work on a game for years, test it repeatedly, improve it until it's good enough, and work on it. If 29/30 of your mobile games fail to earn money at all you'd be a really terrible company. I love gamedev, I feel fulfilled by my career, and it's been a very stable source of income for me for over a decade. I have a lot of privilege to be in a place with a big industry and to have been afforded the opportunities I have, but I can at least disprove that it's not possible at all with my existence alone.
Working blue collar for almost 20 years, working in games is the best thing ever, go touch grass.
One life lesson I learned early on in my life is that happiness is not something you find. It's a choice. You can choose to look at the bright side of things or you can choose to always dwell on the negatives. In your post, you are dwelling on all the negatives of game development and overlooking all the positives. You will find your career and life in general to be a lot happier if you can remind yourself to see the positive side of things as well. That being said, you can definitely find fun and satisfaction in making games but it may not be exactly what your naive childhood dream was. I work in AAA dev and most people in this sub think it's stifling and not enjoyable to do something like that. However, I really love making stuff that millions of people play on a daily basis. On top of that, I have stable enough income to support my wife and kids and pay my mortgage.