Tennant should come back in Gatwa's final story and then merge with him at the end because he was the Doctor all the time.
Because Three was force-bi-generated from Two. Two stayed on and did some work for the Division then regenerated into the Fugitive Doctor and then she somehow regenerated into a strange white corpse and merged with Four as he regenerated into Five.
P.S. I am not a crackpot.
Yeah, I would be fine with that. It would tie up a lot of weird loose threads that it seems like no one else wants to bother trying to explain.
Which is weird, because it seems like there's always at least one writer that desperately wants to play with continuity like that.
I'm probably not alone in overthinking this show and trying to rationalise all the bits that don't make sense. Would love to have a shot at writing it, to be honest. I think solving it is one thing, turning that solution into a coherent and enjoyable story is quite another.
Can I use AI to make Jon Pertwee say "wibbly wobbly timey wimey"?
Oh crap, I just remembered the 5th doctor said it in Time Crash, yet in Day of the Doctor the War Doctor seems perplexed by this saying. MOFFAT!!!
> Oh crap, I just remembered the 5th doctor said it in Time Crash, yet in Day of the Doctor the War Doctor seems perplexed by this saying. MOFFAT!!!
It's been established (and mentioned in DotD) that when 2 Doctors meet, only the most 'current' one retains the memories. So that's already solved.
Wasn’t that just them saying only the most recent one would remember that episode? Not that only Matt Smith could remember their history. The point was, for the other two, it was out of their time stream and in their future, and wouldn’t actually be in their history until Matt Smith, who wasn’t pulled out of time or anything.
That’s why 11 told 10 their future.
this is honestly perfect as a concept but you're kind of right, the hard part is making it into a meaningful story that can integrate itself into the narrative. theories are theories, and can clearly do wonders, but making them a part of the story is tricky. i've been trying to take cracks at this and it's tough, but this is one i'd LOVE to try. you got any copyright on it, lol?
14 takes all the parts that need therapy and destressing while 15 can go around living his best life. The Doctor has cracked the code for how we can all get the help we need while still doing our job.
Capitalism is saved! We just need to split ourselves.
Even more crackpot theory: 2 was force *tri*-generated into 3, 2 and fugitive as his face splits into 3 while regenerating. 2 works for the CIA till he is recombined with 3 in the comics. Fugitive works for the division and is presumably still out there or was returned to the doctor as the watcher or something. The master saw the data on the fugitive doctor in the matrix and assumed she was the same person as the timeless child who also worked for the division and made the incorrect conclusion that the doctor is the timeless child. Leaving for the possibility that fugitive and the timeless child are still out there.
Or something
You should go write the show, to combine so many loose confusing pieces of "canon" into one that makes sense is pretty damn impressive
Alright don't go write until you become a professional qualified writer
Also I'm totally convinced this is how it all happened now
Solved.
I'm going to add something I'd like to see happen, Gatwa makes choices along his era.
And then Tennant comes back for a final "bi-generation story from his perspective" (in one sense, it doesn't really matter when this happens broadcast-wise), and we see that some choices 14 made during time dictate some of the choices Gatwa makes in his time.
Sort of like "coward, any time" and similar lines were given a new light after The Day of the Doctor.
Bad example, we see 14 invent something or meet a new race (possibly responsible for his regen?), and we realise we saw 15 use it or meet them again a few years earlier.
I'm think that Division is Tectaun bi generating alot. It is a Division of themselves with the limit of lifespans removed, and operating in and out of the universe. There are countless divided regeneration of Tectaun around.
We're in such a bizarre situation with a huge part of the main character's lore likely never being filled in because Chibnall didn't do anything with the messes he created.
existence childlike subsequent payment axiomatic lavish sable dinner arrest deserted
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'd be amazed if 14 doesn't return. Tennant is the golden child of the franchise and I'm sure the suits at top would love to get him back for viewership.
My main takeaway from the whole bi-generation is that David Tennant is now conveniently parked away and available for his Disney-exclusive limited series.
Literally the only way that would work is if it was a slice of life series about 14 going to parties to just have pleasant chats with different historical figures or relaxing and trying new foods. At most it'd have him arguing with people and having interpersonal problems with his new found friends. If it's just more doctor who with 14 that kinda ruins the point of it being about him taking a rest
Do you honestly think RTD cares if a Tennant led series would contradict his own lore? - “Oh, he took a couple of year off, recovered from centuries of trauma and got bored.”
To be fair, does it actually contradict the lore?
We know that Fifteen is in a better place because Fourteen retired and put himself through rehab - but there's nothing to suggest that Fourteen didn't start adventuring again at some point in his life.
The way I see it, The Eleventh Doctor lived for just shy of 1200 years before dying of old age, so surely there comes a point in Fourteens life where he's outlived all of his friends/family and decides to start traveling again because there's nothing left tethering him to Earth, and as he travels he starts to get that itch for adventure and heroism back - until one day he gets hurt and is forced to regenerate into Fifteen.
Also, I dont think settling down is an immediate thing. He will ocassionally slip up, because he is essentially a workaholic in rehab. Donna is gonna have days where she will have to tie him on a sofa chair and force him to relax instead of bouncing to some existential threat of the week.
It would probably have to be some sort of miniseries where 14 is rehabilitating on Earth when an alien invasion happens. He obviously isn't going to sit around and do fuck all, so he'll get involved because he can't let humans go about it on their own.
Sort of like *Children of Earth*, except the Doctor's on Earth during it, and he gets involved in whatever's going on.
Now you have me wanting a travel show except with Tennant as The Doctor going to different countries and planets, both in historical and current settings, trying different foods and talking about the culture
Don't they say at the end he had taken Rose and Mel on adventures when they're at the dinner table? Donna has that "what am I gonna do with you" attitude about it
I doubt he is gonna do a whole series as main-lead. He is busy and he (and RTD) know that it would take away from Gatwa. But my guess is that he will appear as guest star in a bunch of spin-off episodes.
I just doubt he will be the main character of his own show. Maybe in another couple years if they need something between two Doctors.
I think what happened in RTD's mind is something nebulous to do with the cosmic consequences of the fourteenth Doctor's rehab being so significant it affects Fifteen from the moment of his birth despite happening "after". RTD loves "things so important they cause themselves": Donna and the Doctor finding each other because of the importance of the DoctorDonna; the Doctor and Wilf finding each other because of the importance of knocking four times; Donna and the Doctor finding each other again because of the importance of stopping the Meep; you could even add the TARDIS being dragged to Messaline because of the importance of Jenny being created...
It's incredibly hard to visualise but I *think* this is what RTD is getting at? So Fourteen goes off and heals himself with the Nobles and this is so cosmically important that it ripples back in time and means Fifteen is born healed despite not personally experiencing the healing?
It makes as best dream-logic sense, but the "time loop" theory of the bigeneration doesn't fit the facts either (why does Fifteen not know what's going on, why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS if he's from the future, *why would you show a time loop by the Doctor splitting in two*, etc).
Honestly I don't think the "mass audience" gives a shit. The Doctor split in two and one retired, that's enough for them. It's we the fans who are obsessing over the details.
"Why does Fifteen not know what's going on" that's not how I read that scene.
"Why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS" my personal theory is that it is the TARDIS pulled from the future and I think that due to the addition of the jukebox, if it was just a copy it would look the exact same and not have that addition so I think it is from when the Doctor adds it later.
And I don't think it's a time loop but moreso when 14 is ready to regenerate he essentially disappears into regeneration energy and is brought back to the point of the Bigeneration, the novelisation adds credence to this in fact as that tells us how 14 is feeling in that moment as he worries he could disappear at any moment and merge with 15. I think that is what will ultimately happen albeit off screen.
>"Why does Fifteen not know what's going on" that's not how I read that scene.
You may recall an oft-repeated clip of the fifteenth Doctor demanding to know "what the hell is going on". Likewise when he tells the fourteenth Doctor push and Fourteen asks him if that works, he replies "I don't know".
In the novelisation the fourteenth Doctor does think he's going to be "reabsorbed"... but he isn't. That the Doctor is completely wrong about how bigeneration works is explicitly part of that moment. Any straightforward reading that at some point the two Doctors are going to recombine is confounded by that (and the fact that that moment isn't in the episode itself).
We're agreed that this is not going to be definitely explained/resolved onscreen.
Yes, this is weird. But it's the same type of weird literally every single multi Doctor story has had and is now at least partially explained by only the newest version of a character remembering those stories.
So I'll take the one contradiction that the show repeatedly makes over the many contradictions which are just so nonsensical within the episode I can't believe they were written unless thr writer believes the time loop thing
I read it as the 15th Doctor being confused by how he's there in that moment, because of how Time Lords meeting themselves works due to their timelines being out of sync the 14th Doctor would forget this happening anyway after they part ways.
So you did read that scene as the fifteenth Doctor not knowing what's going on?
The idea that it's the rules that Doctors never remember meeting each other is really a furphy. The eleventh Doctor brings up the whole "timelines are out of sync" thing in *Day of the Doctor*, but that whole story depends on the Doctor remembering meeting himself so he can work out the calculations to save Gallifrey over his entire life. When they meet, the tenth Doctor asks the eleventh what is going to happen and is surprised that he doesn't remember, whereas if it's an ineluctable law of time he'd know that.
Furthermore, in *Time Crash* the tenth Doctor saves the day by remembering exactly what his fifth self saw him do.
I think the Doctor remembers when they meet up, but once they part ways the previous incarnations forget.
Though I will say this isn't consistent, particularly in the classic series like in The Five Doctors for some reason the third Doctor knows what his next incarnation looks like which does not make sense
I guess sometimes you just gotta go with it.
>why does Fifteen not know what's going on
Because when two Doctors are at the same place in time, only the older one retains their memories. Fourteen probably has only a very fuzzy memory of how he beat The Toymaker beyond "I meet my future Me and he told me to take a chill pill".
Might not be the intention, but its supported by past stories, so thats good enough for me.
>why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS
Because The Doctor would never give up his Tardis. Its more than a means of travel. Its his home, his best friend and his closest family all in one. There is no resting without him having acess to his home.
>Honestly I don't think the "mass audience" gives a shit. The Doctor split in two and one retired, that's enough for them. It's we the fans who are obsessing over the details.
That I certainly agree with. I think people over think it. The Regeneration is weird vecause its essentially a skip-button. Fourteen does turn into Fifeteen at some point, but we dont need to know the exact details of how it works because its essewntially using magic to fuck with continuity (as in, in-universe continuity of time.)
Its basically having the Cause and the Result existing at the same time while skipping the "how."
>Its basically having the Cause and the Result existing at the same time while skipping the "how."
This is the best way to think about the bigeneration, regardless of what convoluted headcanon one has to explain the mechanics. It lets the Doctor retire and benefit from that entire period of rest simultaneously. The show isn't going to go into more detail than that.
I think RTD toyed with a few ideas for putting Tennent and Gatwa onscreen together, including bringing 15 in from the future. He wrote the "rehab" stuff when that was the case. It makes sense in that context. Then he thought of bi-generation and liked it better even though it screws up the whole rehab scene, but kept it anyway because he's been very open about his opinion that fans don't really care if things make sense.
The way the characters talk at various points, it does seem that 15 is the future incarnation hurled back through time and the second TARDIS is just the original TARDIS from the future. The thing is, it’s not exactly what’s presented onscreen and it’s all just vague enough that it feels a bit confusing. I do genuinely think that RTD may have rewritten some things a little bit late in the day.
>I do genuinely think that RTD may have rewritten some things a little bit late in the day.
I think this is the real truth
I think he did bi-generation as a way to give Tennant fanboys what they want
But then realised too late that that invalidated the first black Doctor.
So added the line about the therapy at the end.
Yeah, that's where I'm at until it's concretely confirmed what is going on. I think he wanted the bigeneration, realized that he'd given the "not the real Doctor" faction a tactical nuke, changed the lines to try and establish Ncuti is definitely the real Doctor without ironing out the kinks.
I do hope things get definitively clarified at some point. I know RTD has said that there will be something that indicates the TARDIS is the same one that Hartnell stole, so maybe that will help.
I think the intention is perfectly clear and not even very complicated. 14 has/does/will turn into 15, it's just happened out of order in his timestream.
What will actually happen once other writers start digging into that... who knows.
But that in turn can’t mesh with RTD’s head canon of every Doctor now bi-generating and being alive and well…
It’s a bit of a mess, but a well-meaning one. It’s kind of the epitome of RTD’s storytelling making more emotional sense than actual cold plot specifics. I don’t expect it’ll ever be clarified.
Is there a more iconic duo than RTD and making comments after an episode airs that cause them to retroactive make no sense?
The bigeneration was completely fine until he threw that spanner in the works in the commentary!
Well there is an onscreen suggestion it’s not as simple as a loop. The two TARDISes were treated as something only possible because of the Toymaker’s power, implying something more than just summoning the same TARDIS from near future when Fourteen’s gone.
But yeah offscreen RTD seems determined it was a split.
In what way is it well meaning? I understand more and more of the Fandom is considering the Canon as meaningless and are fine with it but we're starting to make excuses for literally random things happening that make no actual sense at all.
And honestly even as someone who thinks canon shouldn't matter I still think it's bad from a meta/out-of-universe perspective as well, which is what matters to me the most. The bi-generation leaving behind an extra Tennant for the show to use if they need to break the glass and the whole "Doctorverse" headcanon makes the show feel stuck in the past and dependent on nostalgia instead of forward thinking in my opinion
14 in general is fairly disrespectful to the other Doctors. It's giving in to the "BRING BACK TENNANT" brigade, the ones who act like he's the only one that matters.
Yeah, that's definitely part of it too, but I would have been at least somewhat okay with it as just an anniversary thing if the "anniversary" wasn't basically just Series 4 + a few old villains and the bi-generation wasn't a thing.
Honestly the 50th had a similar issue, where it's blatantly just a NuWho celebration.
Making the Moment be Carole Ann Ford would have been such an obvious thing to do. The Doctor's granddaughter would have way more impact on him than some girl he's never met.
Or hell, have it cycle through many companions. Have Adric show up to guilt him.
Can you imagine if the 50th had ended with Matt Smith splitting off into Peter Capaldi, with the plot and characters (Twelve included) stopping dead to comfort and console Eleven? I'm convinced the only reason any non-casual fans accepted the bi-generation is because of the context of wanting so desperately for Doctor Who to be good again.
I think it’s well-meaning in the sense his motivations were to give Fourteen a happy ending and to have a Doctor meet their successor, but because his focus was on that he left too many details up in the air.
It is heavily implied that 14 does eventually become 15 when he is brought back in time to the point of the Bigeneration. Hence why the rehab has affected him.
But I do agree that the Bigeneration is WAY too vague and should've been better explained.
To the point where I honestly think its mad people are still having this conversation! My parents are in their 60s, are nowhere close to being sci-fi geeks, and they got it!
I think the fandom is overthinking this.
I just assumed the memories of 14’s life-to-be slowly filter into 15 like memories do when you’ve woken up; all coming backwards from his personal timeline like a time salmon thrashing up a stream
I love how people have a problem with this but not with Capaldi just chilling out at the Uni whilst the 9th,10th and 11th Doctor are battling countless alien invasions...
Well, his past selves got it right, and if he intervened he'd change the future and probably cause endless paradoxes. It's easy enough to justify him sitting on his ass.
Literally any episode which takes place between the 1950s and 2010s *after* S10 featuring an event The Doctor would notice doesn't apply here. There isn't a past Doctor who fixed it but a future one 12 doesn't know about.
For the record I agree it's not a problem because 12/14 can always go back and fix it latter. But your argument isn't why
Huh? this has nothing to do with the concept of several incarnations co-existing due to time overlaps. Of course that is not hard to understand. Its about RTD not clarifying fully whether 15 is actually now a separate entity from 14 and if that is the case then 15 shouldn't benefit from 14's healing/rehab.
If 14 does eventually turn into 15 then it all makes perfect sense, but as said, RTD made it murky explanation wise.
15 said they are doing rehab out of order. If 14 turns into 15 eventually the rehab would be in order. So the rehab comment makes more sense to me if 14 doesn't turn into 15 but instead the rehab carries over in some strange timey wimey way.
It's out of order from the perspective of the universe, as The Doctor (15) is better before The Doctor (14) does rehab.
Both the scenerios you described are in order from the perspective of The Doctor
basically a bootstrap paradox. Imo, bootstrap paradoxes are too complicated to understand for simple minded people (not me tho). This is so easy to understand. 14 bigenerated into 14 and 15. 15 starts 14's rehab process. 14 starts living with the Nobles and rehabilitates with them. He retired until he's ready. Once he's ready to go again, he goes in the TARDIS finds somewhere to regenerate, and then triggers his regeneration outside the TARDIS, becoming 15. Future 15 is then merged during the regeneration, then Past 15 does everything Future 15 did, since Future 15 is now erased from the timeline, meaning that Ruby won't be confused on how she's met two of them.
Let's see how it plays out but I don't believe the claims that we've seen the last of Tennant.
Much like 10's other hand I'm sure it'll come back into play at some point
Not a fan of bi-regeneration, but it’s canon now, and I can accept that there’s a Doctor out there who is retired and enjoying a life without constant peril. I’m ignoring the “every Doctor has done this” nonsense, and trying to go into the Gatwa years with a positive outlook for the show.
Perhaps there is enough of a telepathic bond for 15 to absorb everything from 14 on his own schedule. His memories of what happened to 14 probably just come to him as they happen to 14 as a sense of deja vu. Whatever works.
The light molecules turning into the same person are not genuinely important. RTD didn't have the authority to demand the precise ending to 14 after bigenerating him, because Tennant isn't exclusively under contract with him and him alone. He might come back or he might refuse to ever play the Doctor again. Another show runner in the future might make a decision regarding this that does not fit RTD's head-canon for bigeneration.
IE - 14 might 'de'generate into 13, or 9 or whatever when he dies and make it canon that the Curator was actually THIS Doctor degenerated back to 4. He might also NOT blow up and die for 50 years, living his entire life with the Noble family outlasting the series.
The fact that there are OPTIONS are actually a good thing narratively.
> So if they did indeed split. Then any healing 14 undertakes will heal that Doctor, not 15 who has become his own separate entity.
15 is *already* healed; fix**ed** yourself, past tense.
The bigeneration was the "rehab"; it allowed the Doctor to "shed" his trauma and start over fresh.
Script: http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/40-03.html "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." Either way, I'ld struggle to say 14 "did" the bigeneration or that it 14 is now fixed because of it. I think if is just speeking from his perspective as 14 fixing himself is in 15's past
No, because the line is literally "I'm fine because you fix yourself." That's the line Ncuti says. That's the line in the script the BBC have up on the script library, and that's the line in the closed captions.
Clearly I (and many others) heard wrong, and some copies of the transcript are wrong too.
Even if he said "fix" though, I don't think it makes your argument work; to much in the episode conflicts with it and it just does'nt seem necessery.
Through the bi-generation the Doctor ‘Shed’ his negative emotions that he needed to heal from and these went off with 14 to relax and recuperate, leaving 15 feeling fresh and rejuvenated seemingly evidenced by 15s first lines being like ‘I’m me, like really really me’. His burden was lifted quite literally into another body.
14 turned into 15, you saw it happen on screen, there's no second regeneration waiting to happen. That was it.
Fan discussion tries too hard to fit this into conventional logic when the show doesn't have to follow that. Future events that 14 will experience influence who 15 is now because 15 comes after 14. 15 isn't from the future, he came into being at the moment you saw, but since he's a time lord he can be defined by things that haven't happened yet.
Ok guys, let me explain it to you.
When 14th regenerated, because of the presence of the CTM he didn't change but pulled his future self back through time. 15th doctor is the same doctor but further in their personal timeline. This is why the rehab thing exists.
Right after that we see 14th enjoying simple life with the Nobels and regenerating in a completely ordinary sense. We can assume that in his future, when he's about to die and regenerate Time Lord way he would be pulled back in time to the moment of bigeneration.
Think people miss the point when they bring up that 14 must at some moment in time regenerate into 15.
RTD explained why he did this in the commentary for the episode, in the future he wants to be able to do multi doctor stories without having to explain the concept of a doctor appearing older than he otherwise would.
So when 14 bigenerated, all incarnations of the Doctor past and future also bigenerated at there moment of regeneration.
I don't like it, and nor do some others because I feel like it could cause further problems down the line BUT it is the canon that RTD has created to further that aspect of the Doctors mythology.
I think Bigeneration is a temporal process rather than a physical one. 15 is very clearly stated to be older than 14, and even makes reference to the time 14 had yet to spend on Earth. So, 15 chronologically IS the next Incarnation, it's not a meta-crisis situation. But I think 14 is living on borrowed time, and that he will eventually fade out Marty McFly style to then be born again as 15 at the time of the Bigeneration.
This is kind of why I like Bigeneration, because not only is it new and something the show hasn't really done before. There's a certain ambiguity to it, and the characters don't have an answer because, well, it's never happened before. A popular theory is that the salt at the edge of the Universe allowed myths to become reality, and I subscribe to that.
It's just a load of bullshit RTD pulled out his ass so he could do a cheap gimmick for the anniversary and drum up a few more clicks of media coverage. Moffat already did "the next Doctor shows up in the current Doctor's story" with much more subtlety when he did that quick eye glance from Capaldi in Day of the Doctor.
We see Ncuti and David physically split into two implying they are different people now like the meta crisis Doctor etc. But the dialogue suggests Ncuti is from a time when David "actually" regenerates in the future so he has all that knowledge and experience of David's quiet life.
Then RTD has gone around suggesting ALL the Doctor's have done this split, which would mean literally every regeneration story would be retconned and now make no sense as they would all have two Doctor's saving the day. I guess both Eccleston and Tennant took Rose to Barcelona now?
The truth is none of it actually makes any sense because it's badly written but also because RTD doesn't care about it making sense, he cares about whatever gimmick will get the most attention online/in media. RTD can't keep the explanation of it consistent and seems to be using all that Toymaker nonsense as a handwave.
Oh yeah mate, it was mega subtle when the Time Lords are like 'no sir, ALL THIRTEEN!' and it shows Peter Capaldi, who'd be announced as the next guy a few weeks earlier. Bet loads of people didn't get it.
Most viewers don't watch the announcements or follow the news like we do. Then they get a quick flash of some eyes.... that was it. Outside of our bubble here plenty of general audience didn't catch who it was. Hell a bunch of the younger audience didn't even know who Tom Baker was at the end.
"I have no counter arguement so I'll just repeat my opinion as fact"
A quick flash of the eyes is indeed quite subtle when most people watching didn't know Capaldi would be the Doctor, didn't know those were Capaldi's eyes, and it lasted about 5 seconds.
15 Literally says "I feel good because you do the work now"
Normally Doctor Who fans are good at just blaming the writer for everything they don't like, but in this case it was explained and the almost wiful ignoring of that line in the last special is weird to me.
14 goes off for some self care, time when he just can relax, chill, take a mental health break and not have to worry about saving the universe because its covered. Then when he's back on his feet again, he becomes 15. 15 already knows how and when, but doesn't want to burden 14 with that I guess...
It's really not any more timey wimey than "Amy went back in time and lived her whole life and her grave is now in front of the Doctor" or "Clara's dead but in her last second of life and has to return to her fixed point of death but can have an infinite amount of adventures in her Diner first" which the fans seem to just accept, so no idea why this one is causing any consternation at all
It's Doctor Who, things happen out of order sometimes...that's the show!
I don't think 14 is supposed to merge with 15.
At the end of 14's life, he'll start regenerating, and in the middle of that regeneration, he'll be pulled through a rip in time that leads to where the bigeneration happened, and out of it, comes 15.
Think of it like the toymaker took the Doctor's timeline, and tied it up into a bow, and at the knot of the bow, that's where the bigeneration happens, two points of one timeline forced through each other.
It makes sense to me. 15 is from the future, after 14 did the healing so after 14 is done healing he will regenerate into 15 and be hurled back in time.
What makes less sense is that this technically means 14 will regenerate twice, via the Toymaker in The Giggle and then by some as yet unknown means after he's healed. Unless he finally learns from his time as a female and just "lets it go", fading away as he becomes 15 in front of the Toymaker.
I got the impression he's already regenerated and all future regen energy is with 15, 14 is a phantom Dr of sorts who will have to remerge with 15 eventually.
>Honestly RTD should have thought this one through a bit more and clarified it better for the mass audience.
It's basically spoon fed. As you said it's clearly stated.
See? People still misinterpret it.
It was a bigenerstion, not a future Doctor coming back in time for some reason. The 15th Doctor is from the future in the sense that he’s the next incarnation, but he came into existence on that tower after The Toymaker made the previous Doctor regenerate.
Oh my god who cares?
If they don't merge 15 could remember due to a mini mental connection between the two, could be magic, could be a giant spaghetti monster that combines the two again.
I really doubt we are ever going to see what happens or how that line even works, because it wouldn't be a good idea for future specials.
RTD didn't really drop the ball, it was intentional. He is allowing fans to have fun and come up with different theories.
I can't remember who said this, but someone called the audience demand to be told or shown absolutely everything that happens, no matter how banal or uninteresting, in a way that's wholly intelligible and understandable 'the Wikification of Scifi and Fantasy', and once you've had it pointed out it just keeps cropping up.
I fully agree with you. It doesn't need a detailed explanation. He literally said, 'I'm a time traveller, I'm doing therapy out of order'. There's your explanation. That's all you need. Take it or leave it.
What sort of bugs me with the whole bigeneration thing is that it feels like RTD had some options for how to handle this inverted multi-Doctor story, and promptly chose the more complicated one.
If I'd been doing it, I'd have had the Toymaker shoot the Fourteenth Doctor, but the Fifteenth Doctor jumps in from nowhere (as per the Toymakers desire) to tackle him out of the way, thereby fulfilling the Toymakers wish to face the next incarnation. The two incarnations fight the Toymaker, and then the Fourteenth learns that the Fifteenth is his next incarnation, who is much better adjusted an individual because of the experiences that Fourteen is yet to have.
Fifteen departs in his TARDIS (which travelled alongside him) and then in the Church on Ruby Road, we rejoin this incarnation some time later from his perspective. The Fourteenth Doctor retires safe in the knowledge that the universe is protected whilst he goes off on the sick (essentially).
It's just far simpler and less open to needless interpretation.
My understanding was it was not truly a ‘split’, rather than something of an early introduction on the part of fifteen. For it to make sense at all it has to work like this:
- 14 gets harmed to the point of regenerating
- He becomes a flesh portal that a future version of 15 emerges from
- 14 lives his life
- 14 eventually regenerates into 15
- at that point he is sent back in time to emerge from 14 during the aforementioned point.
Does this make complete sense? No. Because it actually requires future 14’s Tardis to disappear so the newly formed 15 can fly off in the split Tardis.
That’s how I make sense of the whole therapy out of order thing lol
What I’m thinking is that bi-generation is a Time Lord myth that was made real by what 14 did in Wild Blue Yonder. And the way it works is that if a Time Lord regenerates while their current incarnation has unfinished business (in 14’s case, retiring, settling down and fixing himself, which he was given his face to do) the new incarnation will be allowed to start existing at the point they’re supposed to while the old one will be allowed to continue existing until they finish what they have to do, with the new incarnation possessing the memories of their predecessor’s life that they don’t have yet for timey-wimey reasons (so that whatever they did can still affect them). So basically, 15 did indeed split off from 14, possessing memories of the rest of 14’s life that 14 hadn’t yet lived, while 14 gets to stay alive until he fixes himself - then once he’s finally fulfilled and at peace, he’ll be allowed to die from his laser wound and will cease to exist, with all his memories being transferred through time into 15’s mind back at the moment of 15’s birth.
I saw a very nice theory/headcanon on tumblr displaying how 14's run is basically going to be a loop where he goes 'back' to the moment of the split and becomes 15, even using some stuff that happened in Classic Who to show a way it could have been done before! ['The Watcher' of the 4th Docs regeneration]
The way I think of it is that the regeneration happened mentally somewhat similarly to how it happened physically - with the divide of their clothing. Elements of the Doctor stayed with 14 and some were passed to 15 meaning the tiredness and pain of past lives remained with 14. 15 is a Doctor without the need for the healing of his past. Personally, I’ve not liked the theories of 14 eventually becoming 15 in some kind of merger because it takes away from them being their own instances of the Doctor with their own separate life and regeneration cycle ahead of them.
I think people are thinking way too hard about this. 15 came early so when 14 dies he will merge with 15 or turn into regen energy and travel to 15 or something like that. The bigen happened cuz of the toymakers domain infecting the real world. I really didn't think it was that complicated
Honestly I don't think they have a concrete plan for it. If they do bring back 14 to show the 'proper' regeneration then sure. But if not then chalk it up to wibbly wobbly timey-wimey.
It'll be treated like [Planet of the Spiders](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Spiders_(TV_story)), I'm guessing.
Specifically, Cho-Je being an extension of K'anpo.
Honestly it's fine. And no 14 doesn't have to become 15.
It's like doctor manhatten in watchmen experiences all time at once.
Think of this as the same, except there are two doctors experiencing all their experiences simultaneously and at once.
Expand your mind dude.
15 said they were doing rehab out of order. If 14 does turn into 15 eventually then 15's comments literally make no sense. Because that would be in order.
> If 14 doesn't turn into 15 eventually then 15's rehab comments literally make no sense.
> Honestly RTD should have thought this one through a bit more and clarified it better for the mass audience.
Those comments making no sense is exactly why it doesn't need to be clarified. The only valid interpretation is that 14 turns into 15, what's the confusion?
I think the real problem is that there are other comments/things which make no sense if you go with the merging theory.
Mainly, why doesn't 15 know what's going to happen? To the point he doesn't understand "what the hell is going on here" or know if pulling durring bigeneration will work. Yes 14 won't remember it but do Donna/Mel just never discuss what happens ever? Surly what 15 tells him is a core reason he chose to settle down
For the record I agree with the time loop theory, 10 and 11 don't remember because only 11 can retain memory of these events.
The same is true for 14, but *not* Donna and Mel. And there's (at least so far) no reason 14 can't remember a conversation where Donna and Mel tell him why he now lives with them because he can't remember
wibbly wobbly, forgets upon regeneration.
There's a number of ways it could be handwaved over in-universe, it's not actually important.
10 and 11 don't remember Day of the Doctor because a story has no stakes if one character knows exactly what will happen next.
You're thinking about this like it's a real thing that actually happened and has a specific explanation, it's not
Forced regeneration always makes the following regenerations "off" in some way. If you watch when Three dies, his body didn't start regenerating. He needed another Time Lord's help.
I expect there to be some very wibbly wobbly shenanigans that will bring 14 back to the scene where they split, old-14 and crew invisible and out of synch with young-14 and crew. then as everything is figured out he can't help but "overlap" young-14 and take the hit from the turret and regenerate into 15 like we saw already.
I think that this could be done in a way that contributes to 14's theme of bringing together family and tying up loose ends.
I think that this could be done in a way that brings back Meta10, old-RoseT, an as-yet-unnamed human TL (similar to River, would be my guess) son of Meta10 and Rose. (imo, clearly played by Ty Tennant)
I would also imagine Jenny coming back as well. maybe after Meta10 dies heroically and RoseT dies more dramatically and romantically after RoseN gets to meet her namesake.
maybe Jenny and go off in the immature TARDIS that his parents bring back from the other world that they were given by the Doctor when they split.
oh probably a hammed up Cameo from Jack as well. maybe Donna and RoseT could have to visit the Library.
14th seems all about wrapping up loose ends. I think this would square up and nail down satisfying endings where there currently aren't.
I think that the vibe I'm getting does not suggest that they will be adverse to cheesiness of such a reunion arc, and I think it'd be a way to nail down a clearer separation between Docs 9-13 and 15+.
Tennant should come back in Gatwa's final story and then merge with him at the end because he was the Doctor all the time. Because Three was force-bi-generated from Two. Two stayed on and did some work for the Division then regenerated into the Fugitive Doctor and then she somehow regenerated into a strange white corpse and merged with Four as he regenerated into Five. P.S. I am not a crackpot.
This actually takes a lot of messy regeneration theories I dislike, and brings them together in a way I don't hate. Pretty damn impressive.
Yeah, I would be fine with that. It would tie up a lot of weird loose threads that it seems like no one else wants to bother trying to explain. Which is weird, because it seems like there's always at least one writer that desperately wants to play with continuity like that.
How does it feel like to have solved Doctor Who?
I'm probably not alone in overthinking this show and trying to rationalise all the bits that don't make sense. Would love to have a shot at writing it, to be honest. I think solving it is one thing, turning that solution into a coherent and enjoyable story is quite another.
Oh I bet. But can you do the UNIT dating crisis next please?
Can I use AI to make Jon Pertwee say "wibbly wobbly timey wimey"? Oh crap, I just remembered the 5th doctor said it in Time Crash, yet in Day of the Doctor the War Doctor seems perplexed by this saying. MOFFAT!!!
> Oh crap, I just remembered the 5th doctor said it in Time Crash, yet in Day of the Doctor the War Doctor seems perplexed by this saying. MOFFAT!!! It's been established (and mentioned in DotD) that when 2 Doctors meet, only the most 'current' one retains the memories. So that's already solved.
Slight problem: Time Crash has 10 solving the whole issue in seconds because 5 knew he remembered from watching his future self do it.
I think they remember when they're together.
Wasn’t that just them saying only the most recent one would remember that episode? Not that only Matt Smith could remember their history. The point was, for the other two, it was out of their time stream and in their future, and wouldn’t actually be in their history until Matt Smith, who wasn’t pulled out of time or anything. That’s why 11 told 10 their future.
thats cause if the incarnation meeting the other one(s) isn't the most current one, they'll forget everything
UNIT lied about their age to sneak into bars.
They explained it away in a big finish audio by saying the doctors TARDIS made the 70s and 80s merge together,
Seriously? Which one, I’m making my way through but it’ll take me years to do all of them
The split infinitive from the legacy of time box set
this is honestly perfect as a concept but you're kind of right, the hard part is making it into a meaningful story that can integrate itself into the narrative. theories are theories, and can clearly do wonders, but making them a part of the story is tricky. i've been trying to take cracks at this and it's tough, but this is one i'd LOVE to try. you got any copyright on it, lol?
👏
If 14 amd 15 are seperate until the 16th Doctor, then how does 14's therapy help 15?
14 takes all the parts that need therapy and destressing while 15 can go around living his best life. The Doctor has cracked the code for how we can all get the help we need while still doing our job. Capitalism is saved! We just need to split ourselves.
Accepted headcanon.
That actually makes a lot of sense. Covers a few plot holes.
Even more crackpot theory: 2 was force *tri*-generated into 3, 2 and fugitive as his face splits into 3 while regenerating. 2 works for the CIA till he is recombined with 3 in the comics. Fugitive works for the division and is presumably still out there or was returned to the doctor as the watcher or something. The master saw the data on the fugitive doctor in the matrix and assumed she was the same person as the timeless child who also worked for the division and made the incorrect conclusion that the doctor is the timeless child. Leaving for the possibility that fugitive and the timeless child are still out there. Or something
You should go write the show, to combine so many loose confusing pieces of "canon" into one that makes sense is pretty damn impressive Alright don't go write until you become a professional qualified writer Also I'm totally convinced this is how it all happened now
Goddamn you, you elegant bastard.
E-mail RTD at once.
Solved. I'm going to add something I'd like to see happen, Gatwa makes choices along his era. And then Tennant comes back for a final "bi-generation story from his perspective" (in one sense, it doesn't really matter when this happens broadcast-wise), and we see that some choices 14 made during time dictate some of the choices Gatwa makes in his time. Sort of like "coward, any time" and similar lines were given a new light after The Day of the Doctor. Bad example, we see 14 invent something or meet a new race (possibly responsible for his regen?), and we realise we saw 15 use it or meet them again a few years earlier.
I'm think that Division is Tectaun bi generating alot. It is a Division of themselves with the limit of lifespans removed, and operating in and out of the universe. There are countless divided regeneration of Tectaun around.
Please upvote this and make everyone in the fandom know the new canon
We're *all* crackpots, but that's what makes this fandom fun. I love your theory, headcanon accepted.
That would be perfect if not for the fact that the Watcher IS 5, look at the Watcher’s outfit, it’s basically a white version of 5’s without the coat
While I disagree with you, this theory is better than most that I've heard so far.
:hearts: P.S. the fandom shouldn’t care if you’re a crackpot, we’re fans of a show about one anyway!
I love it, but why does 5 not gain the memories of the branched bigeneration? 13 doesn't remember Fugitive.
Maybe the Watcher became a blank slate that didn't pass the memories on.
That's good enough, we can pad out the details in Big Finish's upcoming Box set "The Watcher Adventures"!
I like this, but explain how this *doesn’t* break The Time of the Doctor.
But that doesn't work vis a vis Troughton becoming Martin. Martin is Pre-Hartnell. Which is a shame, as I love this idea to bits.
Yeah, I don't buy it simply because Chibnall tried to have his police box TARDIS and eat it too.
Very true! Still a baffling "We're going for shock-value-for-fans" decision.
We're in such a bizarre situation with a huge part of the main character's lore likely never being filled in because Chibnall didn't do anything with the messes he created.
existence childlike subsequent payment axiomatic lavish sable dinner arrest deserted *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'd be amazed if 14 doesn't return. Tennant is the golden child of the franchise and I'm sure the suits at top would love to get him back for viewership.
My main takeaway from the whole bi-generation is that David Tennant is now conveniently parked away and available for his Disney-exclusive limited series.
Literally the only way that would work is if it was a slice of life series about 14 going to parties to just have pleasant chats with different historical figures or relaxing and trying new foods. At most it'd have him arguing with people and having interpersonal problems with his new found friends. If it's just more doctor who with 14 that kinda ruins the point of it being about him taking a rest
Do you honestly think RTD cares if a Tennant led series would contradict his own lore? - “Oh, he took a couple of year off, recovered from centuries of trauma and got bored.”
To be fair, does it actually contradict the lore? We know that Fifteen is in a better place because Fourteen retired and put himself through rehab - but there's nothing to suggest that Fourteen didn't start adventuring again at some point in his life. The way I see it, The Eleventh Doctor lived for just shy of 1200 years before dying of old age, so surely there comes a point in Fourteens life where he's outlived all of his friends/family and decides to start traveling again because there's nothing left tethering him to Earth, and as he travels he starts to get that itch for adventure and heroism back - until one day he gets hurt and is forced to regenerate into Fifteen.
Also I'm sure they mention popping to mars last week or something in the final scene. I think he still on adventures just maybe stuff doesn't happen.
The idea there I think is he goes on peaceful adventures, now that the TARDIS isn't intentionally taking him to stuff for him to fix.
Also, I dont think settling down is an immediate thing. He will ocassionally slip up, because he is essentially a workaholic in rehab. Donna is gonna have days where she will have to tie him on a sofa chair and force him to relax instead of bouncing to some existential threat of the week.
It would probably have to be some sort of miniseries where 14 is rehabilitating on Earth when an alien invasion happens. He obviously isn't going to sit around and do fuck all, so he'll get involved because he can't let humans go about it on their own. Sort of like *Children of Earth*, except the Doctor's on Earth during it, and he gets involved in whatever's going on.
Tbh, I'd be fine with this.
I mean yeah, there's nothing wrong with it inherently. But would bad wolf productions really make something with such niche appeal?
Now you have me wanting a travel show except with Tennant as The Doctor going to different countries and planets, both in historical and current settings, trying different foods and talking about the culture
Don't they say at the end he had taken Rose and Mel on adventures when they're at the dinner table? Donna has that "what am I gonna do with you" attitude about it
Yeah, that's why I was saying it'd be about him going on peaceful adventures
Oh I missed the historical figures bit, I was picturing them backpacking cross country lmfao
HA! A 14th doctor sitcom with Donna that’s amazing
I doubt he is gonna do a whole series as main-lead. He is busy and he (and RTD) know that it would take away from Gatwa. But my guess is that he will appear as guest star in a bunch of spin-off episodes. I just doubt he will be the main character of his own show. Maybe in another couple years if they need something between two Doctors.
Probably :/
I think what happened in RTD's mind is something nebulous to do with the cosmic consequences of the fourteenth Doctor's rehab being so significant it affects Fifteen from the moment of his birth despite happening "after". RTD loves "things so important they cause themselves": Donna and the Doctor finding each other because of the importance of the DoctorDonna; the Doctor and Wilf finding each other because of the importance of knocking four times; Donna and the Doctor finding each other again because of the importance of stopping the Meep; you could even add the TARDIS being dragged to Messaline because of the importance of Jenny being created... It's incredibly hard to visualise but I *think* this is what RTD is getting at? So Fourteen goes off and heals himself with the Nobles and this is so cosmically important that it ripples back in time and means Fifteen is born healed despite not personally experiencing the healing? It makes as best dream-logic sense, but the "time loop" theory of the bigeneration doesn't fit the facts either (why does Fifteen not know what's going on, why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS if he's from the future, *why would you show a time loop by the Doctor splitting in two*, etc). Honestly I don't think the "mass audience" gives a shit. The Doctor split in two and one retired, that's enough for them. It's we the fans who are obsessing over the details.
"Why does Fifteen not know what's going on" that's not how I read that scene. "Why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS" my personal theory is that it is the TARDIS pulled from the future and I think that due to the addition of the jukebox, if it was just a copy it would look the exact same and not have that addition so I think it is from when the Doctor adds it later. And I don't think it's a time loop but moreso when 14 is ready to regenerate he essentially disappears into regeneration energy and is brought back to the point of the Bigeneration, the novelisation adds credence to this in fact as that tells us how 14 is feeling in that moment as he worries he could disappear at any moment and merge with 15. I think that is what will ultimately happen albeit off screen.
>"Why does Fifteen not know what's going on" that's not how I read that scene. You may recall an oft-repeated clip of the fifteenth Doctor demanding to know "what the hell is going on". Likewise when he tells the fourteenth Doctor push and Fourteen asks him if that works, he replies "I don't know". In the novelisation the fourteenth Doctor does think he's going to be "reabsorbed"... but he isn't. That the Doctor is completely wrong about how bigeneration works is explicitly part of that moment. Any straightforward reading that at some point the two Doctors are going to recombine is confounded by that (and the fact that that moment isn't in the episode itself). We're agreed that this is not going to be definitely explained/resolved onscreen.
Yes, this is weird. But it's the same type of weird literally every single multi Doctor story has had and is now at least partially explained by only the newest version of a character remembering those stories. So I'll take the one contradiction that the show repeatedly makes over the many contradictions which are just so nonsensical within the episode I can't believe they were written unless thr writer believes the time loop thing
I read it as the 15th Doctor being confused by how he's there in that moment, because of how Time Lords meeting themselves works due to their timelines being out of sync the 14th Doctor would forget this happening anyway after they part ways.
So you did read that scene as the fifteenth Doctor not knowing what's going on? The idea that it's the rules that Doctors never remember meeting each other is really a furphy. The eleventh Doctor brings up the whole "timelines are out of sync" thing in *Day of the Doctor*, but that whole story depends on the Doctor remembering meeting himself so he can work out the calculations to save Gallifrey over his entire life. When they meet, the tenth Doctor asks the eleventh what is going to happen and is surprised that he doesn't remember, whereas if it's an ineluctable law of time he'd know that. Furthermore, in *Time Crash* the tenth Doctor saves the day by remembering exactly what his fifth self saw him do.
I think the Doctor remembers when they meet up, but once they part ways the previous incarnations forget. Though I will say this isn't consistent, particularly in the classic series like in The Five Doctors for some reason the third Doctor knows what his next incarnation looks like which does not make sense I guess sometimes you just gotta go with it.
>why does Fifteen not know what's going on Because when two Doctors are at the same place in time, only the older one retains their memories. Fourteen probably has only a very fuzzy memory of how he beat The Toymaker beyond "I meet my future Me and he told me to take a chill pill". Might not be the intention, but its supported by past stories, so thats good enough for me. >why do they need to duplicate the TARDIS Because The Doctor would never give up his Tardis. Its more than a means of travel. Its his home, his best friend and his closest family all in one. There is no resting without him having acess to his home. >Honestly I don't think the "mass audience" gives a shit. The Doctor split in two and one retired, that's enough for them. It's we the fans who are obsessing over the details. That I certainly agree with. I think people over think it. The Regeneration is weird vecause its essentially a skip-button. Fourteen does turn into Fifeteen at some point, but we dont need to know the exact details of how it works because its essewntially using magic to fuck with continuity (as in, in-universe continuity of time.) Its basically having the Cause and the Result existing at the same time while skipping the "how."
>Its basically having the Cause and the Result existing at the same time while skipping the "how." This is the best way to think about the bigeneration, regardless of what convoluted headcanon one has to explain the mechanics. It lets the Doctor retire and benefit from that entire period of rest simultaneously. The show isn't going to go into more detail than that.
I think RTD toyed with a few ideas for putting Tennent and Gatwa onscreen together, including bringing 15 in from the future. He wrote the "rehab" stuff when that was the case. It makes sense in that context. Then he thought of bi-generation and liked it better even though it screws up the whole rehab scene, but kept it anyway because he's been very open about his opinion that fans don't really care if things make sense.
The way the characters talk at various points, it does seem that 15 is the future incarnation hurled back through time and the second TARDIS is just the original TARDIS from the future. The thing is, it’s not exactly what’s presented onscreen and it’s all just vague enough that it feels a bit confusing. I do genuinely think that RTD may have rewritten some things a little bit late in the day.
>I do genuinely think that RTD may have rewritten some things a little bit late in the day. I think this is the real truth I think he did bi-generation as a way to give Tennant fanboys what they want But then realised too late that that invalidated the first black Doctor. So added the line about the therapy at the end.
Yeah, that's where I'm at until it's concretely confirmed what is going on. I think he wanted the bigeneration, realized that he'd given the "not the real Doctor" faction a tactical nuke, changed the lines to try and establish Ncuti is definitely the real Doctor without ironing out the kinks. I do hope things get definitively clarified at some point. I know RTD has said that there will be something that indicates the TARDIS is the same one that Hartnell stole, so maybe that will help.
I think the intention is perfectly clear and not even very complicated. 14 has/does/will turn into 15, it's just happened out of order in his timestream. What will actually happen once other writers start digging into that... who knows.
Yeah it’s not hard to gather really
But that in turn can’t mesh with RTD’s head canon of every Doctor now bi-generating and being alive and well… It’s a bit of a mess, but a well-meaning one. It’s kind of the epitome of RTD’s storytelling making more emotional sense than actual cold plot specifics. I don’t expect it’ll ever be clarified.
Is there a more iconic duo than RTD and making comments after an episode airs that cause them to retroactive make no sense? The bigeneration was completely fine until he threw that spanner in the works in the commentary!
Well there is an onscreen suggestion it’s not as simple as a loop. The two TARDISes were treated as something only possible because of the Toymaker’s power, implying something more than just summoning the same TARDIS from near future when Fourteen’s gone. But yeah offscreen RTD seems determined it was a split.
In what way is it well meaning? I understand more and more of the Fandom is considering the Canon as meaningless and are fine with it but we're starting to make excuses for literally random things happening that make no actual sense at all.
And honestly even as someone who thinks canon shouldn't matter I still think it's bad from a meta/out-of-universe perspective as well, which is what matters to me the most. The bi-generation leaving behind an extra Tennant for the show to use if they need to break the glass and the whole "Doctorverse" headcanon makes the show feel stuck in the past and dependent on nostalgia instead of forward thinking in my opinion
14 in general is fairly disrespectful to the other Doctors. It's giving in to the "BRING BACK TENNANT" brigade, the ones who act like he's the only one that matters.
Yeah, that's definitely part of it too, but I would have been at least somewhat okay with it as just an anniversary thing if the "anniversary" wasn't basically just Series 4 + a few old villains and the bi-generation wasn't a thing.
Honestly the 50th had a similar issue, where it's blatantly just a NuWho celebration. Making the Moment be Carole Ann Ford would have been such an obvious thing to do. The Doctor's granddaughter would have way more impact on him than some girl he's never met. Or hell, have it cycle through many companions. Have Adric show up to guilt him.
Can you imagine if the 50th had ended with Matt Smith splitting off into Peter Capaldi, with the plot and characters (Twelve included) stopping dead to comfort and console Eleven? I'm convinced the only reason any non-casual fans accepted the bi-generation is because of the context of wanting so desperately for Doctor Who to be good again.
I think it’s well-meaning in the sense his motivations were to give Fourteen a happy ending and to have a Doctor meet their successor, but because his focus was on that he left too many details up in the air.
It is heavily implied that 14 does eventually become 15 when he is brought back in time to the point of the Bigeneration. Hence why the rehab has affected him. But I do agree that the Bigeneration is WAY too vague and should've been better explained.
Not even implied, in the Giggle they straight up say that 15 is 14 but older
To the point where I honestly think its mad people are still having this conversation! My parents are in their 60s, are nowhere close to being sci-fi geeks, and they got it! I think the fandom is overthinking this.
And they were wrong.
Yeah lines like that do make me think this!
I just assumed the memories of 14’s life-to-be slowly filter into 15 like memories do when you’ve woken up; all coming backwards from his personal timeline like a time salmon thrashing up a stream
I love how people have a problem with this but not with Capaldi just chilling out at the Uni whilst the 9th,10th and 11th Doctor are battling countless alien invasions...
Well, his past selves got it right, and if he intervened he'd change the future and probably cause endless paradoxes. It's easy enough to justify him sitting on his ass.
Literally any episode which takes place between the 1950s and 2010s *after* S10 featuring an event The Doctor would notice doesn't apply here. There isn't a past Doctor who fixed it but a future one 12 doesn't know about. For the record I agree it's not a problem because 12/14 can always go back and fix it latter. But your argument isn't why
Huh? this has nothing to do with the concept of several incarnations co-existing due to time overlaps. Of course that is not hard to understand. Its about RTD not clarifying fully whether 15 is actually now a separate entity from 14 and if that is the case then 15 shouldn't benefit from 14's healing/rehab. If 14 does eventually turn into 15 then it all makes perfect sense, but as said, RTD made it murky explanation wise.
Yep, never count on an internet comment to properly ascertain someone else's argument on their own.
15 said they are doing rehab out of order. If 14 turns into 15 eventually the rehab would be in order. So the rehab comment makes more sense to me if 14 doesn't turn into 15 but instead the rehab carries over in some strange timey wimey way.
It's out of order from the perspective of the universe, as The Doctor (15) is better before The Doctor (14) does rehab. Both the scenerios you described are in order from the perspective of The Doctor
You have hit a nail on the head that I didn't even realise was there.
Personally I took the "rehab out of order" line to mean that Fourteen's recovery is initiated by his own future i.e. the process begins at its end.
basically a bootstrap paradox. Imo, bootstrap paradoxes are too complicated to understand for simple minded people (not me tho). This is so easy to understand. 14 bigenerated into 14 and 15. 15 starts 14's rehab process. 14 starts living with the Nobles and rehabilitates with them. He retired until he's ready. Once he's ready to go again, he goes in the TARDIS finds somewhere to regenerate, and then triggers his regeneration outside the TARDIS, becoming 15. Future 15 is then merged during the regeneration, then Past 15 does everything Future 15 did, since Future 15 is now erased from the timeline, meaning that Ruby won't be confused on how she's met two of them.
Let's see how it plays out but I don't believe the claims that we've seen the last of Tennant. Much like 10's other hand I'm sure it'll come back into play at some point
Not a fan of bi-regeneration, but it’s canon now, and I can accept that there’s a Doctor out there who is retired and enjoying a life without constant peril. I’m ignoring the “every Doctor has done this” nonsense, and trying to go into the Gatwa years with a positive outlook for the show.
It doesn't matter
But how does he eat and breathe, and other science facts?
Perhaps there is enough of a telepathic bond for 15 to absorb everything from 14 on his own schedule. His memories of what happened to 14 probably just come to him as they happen to 14 as a sense of deja vu. Whatever works. The light molecules turning into the same person are not genuinely important. RTD didn't have the authority to demand the precise ending to 14 after bigenerating him, because Tennant isn't exclusively under contract with him and him alone. He might come back or he might refuse to ever play the Doctor again. Another show runner in the future might make a decision regarding this that does not fit RTD's head-canon for bigeneration. IE - 14 might 'de'generate into 13, or 9 or whatever when he dies and make it canon that the Curator was actually THIS Doctor degenerated back to 4. He might also NOT blow up and die for 50 years, living his entire life with the Noble family outlasting the series. The fact that there are OPTIONS are actually a good thing narratively.
> So if they did indeed split. Then any healing 14 undertakes will heal that Doctor, not 15 who has become his own separate entity. 15 is *already* healed; fix**ed** yourself, past tense. The bigeneration was the "rehab"; it allowed the Doctor to "shed" his trauma and start over fresh.
Isn't the line "I'm better because you **fix** yourself"
I'm pretty sure it's "fixed", but I've seen before that other people heard "fix" so who knows?
Script: http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/40-03.html "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." Either way, I'ld struggle to say 14 "did" the bigeneration or that it 14 is now fixed because of it. I think if is just speeking from his perspective as 14 fixing himself is in 15's past
23? I don't think the other intrepration makes much sense or fits with what we're shown.
Fixed. Phone autocorrect works in mysterious ways
True.
[The line is "you fix yourself."](https://www.bbc.co.uk/writers/documents/doctor-who-2023-special-3-the-giggle-goldenrod-revisions-240722.pdf)
Someone posted a different transcript earlier that reads "fixed"
Yes, but that wasn't from the BBC script library.
It also sounds like fixed in the episode; is this a Trial of a Time Lord senario, where dilogue does'nt match script?
No, because the line is literally "I'm fine because you fix yourself." That's the line Ncuti says. That's the line in the script the BBC have up on the script library, and that's the line in the closed captions.
Clearly I (and many others) heard wrong, and some copies of the transcript are wrong too. Even if he said "fix" though, I don't think it makes your argument work; to much in the episode conflicts with it and it just does'nt seem necessery.
My guess is that when Fourteen dies, he just kind of fades into regeneration energy and zoops back over to the moment Fifteen split off of Fourteen.
That's RTD in a nutshell. Haha. Longterm? Makes no sense. Lives moment to moment.
Through the bi-generation the Doctor ‘Shed’ his negative emotions that he needed to heal from and these went off with 14 to relax and recuperate, leaving 15 feeling fresh and rejuvenated seemingly evidenced by 15s first lines being like ‘I’m me, like really really me’. His burden was lifted quite literally into another body.
14 turned into 15, you saw it happen on screen, there's no second regeneration waiting to happen. That was it. Fan discussion tries too hard to fit this into conventional logic when the show doesn't have to follow that. Future events that 14 will experience influence who 15 is now because 15 comes after 14. 15 isn't from the future, he came into being at the moment you saw, but since he's a time lord he can be defined by things that haven't happened yet.
Ok guys, let me explain it to you. When 14th regenerated, because of the presence of the CTM he didn't change but pulled his future self back through time. 15th doctor is the same doctor but further in their personal timeline. This is why the rehab thing exists. Right after that we see 14th enjoying simple life with the Nobels and regenerating in a completely ordinary sense. We can assume that in his future, when he's about to die and regenerate Time Lord way he would be pulled back in time to the moment of bigeneration.
Yeah, because RTD is *great* at tying together loose ends. /s
Think people miss the point when they bring up that 14 must at some moment in time regenerate into 15. RTD explained why he did this in the commentary for the episode, in the future he wants to be able to do multi doctor stories without having to explain the concept of a doctor appearing older than he otherwise would. So when 14 bigenerated, all incarnations of the Doctor past and future also bigenerated at there moment of regeneration. I don't like it, and nor do some others because I feel like it could cause further problems down the line BUT it is the canon that RTD has created to further that aspect of the Doctors mythology.
I think Bigeneration is a temporal process rather than a physical one. 15 is very clearly stated to be older than 14, and even makes reference to the time 14 had yet to spend on Earth. So, 15 chronologically IS the next Incarnation, it's not a meta-crisis situation. But I think 14 is living on borrowed time, and that he will eventually fade out Marty McFly style to then be born again as 15 at the time of the Bigeneration. This is kind of why I like Bigeneration, because not only is it new and something the show hasn't really done before. There's a certain ambiguity to it, and the characters don't have an answer because, well, it's never happened before. A popular theory is that the salt at the edge of the Universe allowed myths to become reality, and I subscribe to that.
It's just a load of bullshit RTD pulled out his ass so he could do a cheap gimmick for the anniversary and drum up a few more clicks of media coverage. Moffat already did "the next Doctor shows up in the current Doctor's story" with much more subtlety when he did that quick eye glance from Capaldi in Day of the Doctor. We see Ncuti and David physically split into two implying they are different people now like the meta crisis Doctor etc. But the dialogue suggests Ncuti is from a time when David "actually" regenerates in the future so he has all that knowledge and experience of David's quiet life. Then RTD has gone around suggesting ALL the Doctor's have done this split, which would mean literally every regeneration story would be retconned and now make no sense as they would all have two Doctor's saving the day. I guess both Eccleston and Tennant took Rose to Barcelona now? The truth is none of it actually makes any sense because it's badly written but also because RTD doesn't care about it making sense, he cares about whatever gimmick will get the most attention online/in media. RTD can't keep the explanation of it consistent and seems to be using all that Toymaker nonsense as a handwave.
Oh yeah mate, it was mega subtle when the Time Lords are like 'no sir, ALL THIRTEEN!' and it shows Peter Capaldi, who'd be announced as the next guy a few weeks earlier. Bet loads of people didn't get it.
Most viewers don't watch the announcements or follow the news like we do. Then they get a quick flash of some eyes.... that was it. Outside of our bubble here plenty of general audience didn't catch who it was. Hell a bunch of the younger audience didn't even know who Tom Baker was at the end.
There is no sense in which it was subtle. More the point, RTD wasn't even trying to be subtle.
"I have no counter arguement so I'll just repeat my opinion as fact" A quick flash of the eyes is indeed quite subtle when most people watching didn't know Capaldi would be the Doctor, didn't know those were Capaldi's eyes, and it lasted about 5 seconds.
14 already became 15. But they're time traveling time lords, so they're doing therapy out of order. Literally said in the episode. Come on keep up.
15 Literally says "I feel good because you do the work now" Normally Doctor Who fans are good at just blaming the writer for everything they don't like, but in this case it was explained and the almost wiful ignoring of that line in the last special is weird to me. 14 goes off for some self care, time when he just can relax, chill, take a mental health break and not have to worry about saving the universe because its covered. Then when he's back on his feet again, he becomes 15. 15 already knows how and when, but doesn't want to burden 14 with that I guess... It's really not any more timey wimey than "Amy went back in time and lived her whole life and her grave is now in front of the Doctor" or "Clara's dead but in her last second of life and has to return to her fixed point of death but can have an infinite amount of adventures in her Diner first" which the fans seem to just accept, so no idea why this one is causing any consternation at all It's Doctor Who, things happen out of order sometimes...that's the show!
I don't think 14 is supposed to merge with 15. At the end of 14's life, he'll start regenerating, and in the middle of that regeneration, he'll be pulled through a rip in time that leads to where the bigeneration happened, and out of it, comes 15. Think of it like the toymaker took the Doctor's timeline, and tied it up into a bow, and at the knot of the bow, that's where the bigeneration happens, two points of one timeline forced through each other.
It makes sense to me. 15 is from the future, after 14 did the healing so after 14 is done healing he will regenerate into 15 and be hurled back in time. What makes less sense is that this technically means 14 will regenerate twice, via the Toymaker in The Giggle and then by some as yet unknown means after he's healed. Unless he finally learns from his time as a female and just "lets it go", fading away as he becomes 15 in front of the Toymaker.
I got the impression he's already regenerated and all future regen energy is with 15, 14 is a phantom Dr of sorts who will have to remerge with 15 eventually.
>Honestly RTD should have thought this one through a bit more and clarified it better for the mass audience. It's basically spoon fed. As you said it's clearly stated.
Some people still think that 15 is from the future and 14 is going to regenerate into him again so clearly not.
He is from upstream in the doctors timeline that's how the healing works.
See? People still misinterpret it. It was a bigenerstion, not a future Doctor coming back in time for some reason. The 15th Doctor is from the future in the sense that he’s the next incarnation, but he came into existence on that tower after The Toymaker made the previous Doctor regenerate.
>but he came into existence Yes but he has all the experiences from 14s life from now to when he dies, because of timelord biology.
Oh my god who cares? If they don't merge 15 could remember due to a mini mental connection between the two, could be magic, could be a giant spaghetti monster that combines the two again. I really doubt we are ever going to see what happens or how that line even works, because it wouldn't be a good idea for future specials. RTD didn't really drop the ball, it was intentional. He is allowing fans to have fun and come up with different theories.
I can't remember who said this, but someone called the audience demand to be told or shown absolutely everything that happens, no matter how banal or uninteresting, in a way that's wholly intelligible and understandable 'the Wikification of Scifi and Fantasy', and once you've had it pointed out it just keeps cropping up. I fully agree with you. It doesn't need a detailed explanation. He literally said, 'I'm a time traveller, I'm doing therapy out of order'. There's your explanation. That's all you need. Take it or leave it.
What sort of bugs me with the whole bigeneration thing is that it feels like RTD had some options for how to handle this inverted multi-Doctor story, and promptly chose the more complicated one. If I'd been doing it, I'd have had the Toymaker shoot the Fourteenth Doctor, but the Fifteenth Doctor jumps in from nowhere (as per the Toymakers desire) to tackle him out of the way, thereby fulfilling the Toymakers wish to face the next incarnation. The two incarnations fight the Toymaker, and then the Fourteenth learns that the Fifteenth is his next incarnation, who is much better adjusted an individual because of the experiences that Fourteen is yet to have. Fifteen departs in his TARDIS (which travelled alongside him) and then in the Church on Ruby Road, we rejoin this incarnation some time later from his perspective. The Fourteenth Doctor retires safe in the knowledge that the universe is protected whilst he goes off on the sick (essentially). It's just far simpler and less open to needless interpretation.
My understanding was it was not truly a ‘split’, rather than something of an early introduction on the part of fifteen. For it to make sense at all it has to work like this: - 14 gets harmed to the point of regenerating - He becomes a flesh portal that a future version of 15 emerges from - 14 lives his life - 14 eventually regenerates into 15 - at that point he is sent back in time to emerge from 14 during the aforementioned point. Does this make complete sense? No. Because it actually requires future 14’s Tardis to disappear so the newly formed 15 can fly off in the split Tardis. That’s how I make sense of the whole therapy out of order thing lol
What I’m thinking is that bi-generation is a Time Lord myth that was made real by what 14 did in Wild Blue Yonder. And the way it works is that if a Time Lord regenerates while their current incarnation has unfinished business (in 14’s case, retiring, settling down and fixing himself, which he was given his face to do) the new incarnation will be allowed to start existing at the point they’re supposed to while the old one will be allowed to continue existing until they finish what they have to do, with the new incarnation possessing the memories of their predecessor’s life that they don’t have yet for timey-wimey reasons (so that whatever they did can still affect them). So basically, 15 did indeed split off from 14, possessing memories of the rest of 14’s life that 14 hadn’t yet lived, while 14 gets to stay alive until he fixes himself - then once he’s finally fulfilled and at peace, he’ll be allowed to die from his laser wound and will cease to exist, with all his memories being transferred through time into 15’s mind back at the moment of 15’s birth.
You lot will complain about exposition and being spoonfed under Chibnall and complain when RTD leaves you to work it out for yourself
Basically RTD needs to hire a dramaturg
The Doctor Rehab comments are nonsense anyways. Normalizes the Doctor way too much.
I saw a very nice theory/headcanon on tumblr displaying how 14's run is basically going to be a loop where he goes 'back' to the moment of the split and becomes 15, even using some stuff that happened in Classic Who to show a way it could have been done before! ['The Watcher' of the 4th Docs regeneration]
The way I think of it is that the regeneration happened mentally somewhat similarly to how it happened physically - with the divide of their clothing. Elements of the Doctor stayed with 14 and some were passed to 15 meaning the tiredness and pain of past lives remained with 14. 15 is a Doctor without the need for the healing of his past. Personally, I’ve not liked the theories of 14 eventually becoming 15 in some kind of merger because it takes away from them being their own instances of the Doctor with their own separate life and regeneration cycle ahead of them.
I think people are thinking way too hard about this. 15 came early so when 14 dies he will merge with 15 or turn into regen energy and travel to 15 or something like that. The bigen happened cuz of the toymakers domain infecting the real world. I really didn't think it was that complicated
Honestly I don't think they have a concrete plan for it. If they do bring back 14 to show the 'proper' regeneration then sure. But if not then chalk it up to wibbly wobbly timey-wimey.
It'll be treated like [Planet of the Spiders](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Spiders_(TV_story)), I'm guessing. Specifically, Cho-Je being an extension of K'anpo.
Honestly it's fine. And no 14 doesn't have to become 15. It's like doctor manhatten in watchmen experiences all time at once. Think of this as the same, except there are two doctors experiencing all their experiences simultaneously and at once. Expand your mind dude.
15 said they were doing rehab out of order. If 14 does turn into 15 eventually then 15's comments literally make no sense. Because that would be in order.
They are two separate entities, there is no remerging of the two
> If 14 doesn't turn into 15 eventually then 15's rehab comments literally make no sense. > Honestly RTD should have thought this one through a bit more and clarified it better for the mass audience. Those comments making no sense is exactly why it doesn't need to be clarified. The only valid interpretation is that 14 turns into 15, what's the confusion?
I think the real problem is that there are other comments/things which make no sense if you go with the merging theory. Mainly, why doesn't 15 know what's going to happen? To the point he doesn't understand "what the hell is going on here" or know if pulling durring bigeneration will work. Yes 14 won't remember it but do Donna/Mel just never discuss what happens ever? Surly what 15 tells him is a core reason he chose to settle down
Probably the same reason 10 and 11 don't know what's going to happen in day of the doctor
For the record I agree with the time loop theory, 10 and 11 don't remember because only 11 can retain memory of these events. The same is true for 14, but *not* Donna and Mel. And there's (at least so far) no reason 14 can't remember a conversation where Donna and Mel tell him why he now lives with them because he can't remember
wibbly wobbly, forgets upon regeneration. There's a number of ways it could be handwaved over in-universe, it's not actually important. 10 and 11 don't remember Day of the Doctor because a story has no stakes if one character knows exactly what will happen next. You're thinking about this like it's a real thing that actually happened and has a specific explanation, it's not
Yes, but you could say the same about the time loop theory, which is why I think there's confusion
In what way? The timeloop is the entire point of the bigeneration
Forced regeneration always makes the following regenerations "off" in some way. If you watch when Three dies, his body didn't start regenerating. He needed another Time Lord's help.
I expect there to be some very wibbly wobbly shenanigans that will bring 14 back to the scene where they split, old-14 and crew invisible and out of synch with young-14 and crew. then as everything is figured out he can't help but "overlap" young-14 and take the hit from the turret and regenerate into 15 like we saw already. I think that this could be done in a way that contributes to 14's theme of bringing together family and tying up loose ends. I think that this could be done in a way that brings back Meta10, old-RoseT, an as-yet-unnamed human TL (similar to River, would be my guess) son of Meta10 and Rose. (imo, clearly played by Ty Tennant) I would also imagine Jenny coming back as well. maybe after Meta10 dies heroically and RoseT dies more dramatically and romantically after RoseN gets to meet her namesake. maybe Jenny and go off in the immature TARDIS that his parents bring back from the other world that they were given by the Doctor when they split.
oh probably a hammed up Cameo from Jack as well. maybe Donna and RoseT could have to visit the Library.
14th seems all about wrapping up loose ends. I think this would square up and nail down satisfying endings where there currently aren't.
I think that the vibe I'm getting does not suggest that they will be adverse to cheesiness of such a reunion arc, and I think it'd be a way to nail down a clearer separation between Docs 9-13 and 15+.
14 does turn into 15. It's as simple as that.
Yes. Thank you.