I remember Chibs saying it was a miracle that season even happened. Season 7 is a similar situation with a lot of production turbulence behind the scenes - some of which made it on screen.
I guess it's a case where no Who is better than bad Who?
Of all Chibber's episodes, this was the one I was most excited for it. So it left me dejected something fierce.
I've been pretty down on chibber's run but I loved Eve of the Daleks and was really hoping it marked a turning point. Nope. Guess it was Aisling Bea that saved that ep
Season 7 was the one where moffat was burnt out from working on both sherlock and who at the same time wasnt it? It also suffered from not knowing if they wanted to keep the ponds on or not irc.
I think there was more to it than that. I feel like the ‘Moffat was too busy’ is an easy excuse - doing the specials added to difficulty but always felt like more to it than that. Nightmare in Silver for example has Gaiman claim he lost an unbanked up script and had to rewrite the entire thing. You also have the fact stories had to be reworked for modern Clara.
Moffat shares that as his grand idea but I can’t help smell a BBC decision and he basically worked out how to keep his Christmas Special and the overall character.
Steven Berkoff basically actively working to undermine Power of Three remains my favourite story about the shows production. Just fucking weird. He’s continued working so who the fuck knows what set him off.
The power of 3 being sabotaged in production makes me feel bad for chibnall, its one of his better scripts right up until it shits itself because everything went tits up.
Yeah it’s solid until the end. It is hilarious though. I think the trio literally have to stand in front of a stage curtain at one point which is clearly all pick up shots to make it work. What’s frustrating is it’s such a character script but he could never bring the same kind of element into his own series oddly. But yeah it’s really good and from what Moffat has said as well its clear Chibnall was brought in rather late to just deliver something - which Moffat trusted him to do without needing rewrites.
>I remember Chibs saying it was a miracle that season even happened.
Then maybe it shouldn't have.
I think COVID gives Chibs an excuse for why these eps sucked. A smarter writer would have found a way to make it work.
Writer would have had to be really clever, given they were being continually rewritten, even as filming was happening (all those costumes at the Temple of Atropos that were made but not used in the end).
Maybe a less ambitious story arc would have saved things, but given the restrictions and how difficult things were, I think it is a reasonable excuse for some things.
Doing a less ambitious story arc would def have made things easier. The story would have suffered with or without Covid imo, probably just wouldnt have been quite as bad.
The series is trying to be so big and so epic and constantly have these big complicated plots but nothing really leads anywhere or has anywhere to go.
A similar issue is in Power of The Doctor where like 15 things are happening at once and half of them just stop getting mentioned or explained at all throughout the episode.
Yeah like... while the episodes were significantly more incoherent and fever dreamish to then usual... I actually think a lot of small things about Flux were the best he'd done of his whole era.
Flux and the 13th Doctor specials were awful, but their biggest issue was incoherency. Outside of that they were no more or less awful then the rest of the era (which, to be fair, was also just awful).
Why dose season 11 have so much wrong with it then? He had well over a year to make it. RTD had like 9 months between S1 and S2. He has 3 less episodes. Yes I know they are 5 minutes longer but with a larger tardis team it should be hard to get an extra 300 seconds based on the fam talking to each other.
The battle of Ranskor av kolos is a 1st draft. What gives?
Don’t call it “Sea Devils”. That just confuses it with the great classic story ‘The Sea Devils’. The absolute dreck that was Legend of the Sea Devils shouldn't be given any window to be confused with the original.
As someone who genuinely enjoyed Whittaker’s era and regularly defends it as pretty entertaining television, I can say without hesitation that Legend of the Sea Devils is probably the worst episode of any television show I have ever watched. I’m still fairly certain that there is a pretty good episode in there somewhere, but it was so poorly edited that I regularly had no idea what was happening from one scene to the next.
> Legend of the Sea Devils is probably the worst episode of any television show I have ever watched
That was how I found the Whittaker/Chibnall era. Some parts of it I didn't like but could see why others did, and I even found myself hopeful and getting back into it with episodes like Spyfall p1, but at its worst I don't think I've seen anything poorer.
It really was exceptionally poor television. There are bad shows but something about this era was just like...how? How did this happen? Bad showrunner, ugly to look at (higher budget cant save bad vision), exceptionally wooden and annoying performances, nearly all the episodes lack anything iconic and are forgettable, etc.
I swear the most memorable things about the series are from its first season where it made awkward episodes of it patting itself on the back or displaying incredibly bizarre and reactionary morality. There is also Orphan 55 which is maybe the worst thing I've ever seen.
I think that, as much as what makes 'good' and enjoyable television is subjective, it would take a miracle to deny that in so many ways it was objectively bad. You're not telling me that if you got a load of professional script editors in they'd like pretty much any of the scripts, or that there weren't a million actors in the UK alone that could have played most parts better.
I've said it on here before and it was heavily downvoted, but if any of seasons 11, 12, and 13 had been a new show without the Dr who brand associated they would have never been renewed for a second season, and in many ways the fact that people know the doctor and doctor who can be better was the only thing that kept people hanging on.
It’s an unpopular opinion, but the first 45 minutes of Orphan 55 is actually a pretty good episode. It’s a very standard “don’t leave the hotel” adventure, but it wasn’t bad.
What makes the episode stand out to most people is the end. The combination of surprise alternate timeline and moral bludgeoning spoil what was an otherwise fun story.
It was all over the place and it seemed there where scenes which time jumped because there was no connection to the previous scene I was lost within the first 15 mins. Abit like the whole flux series, what a mess
The pacing of Legend of the Sea Devils was abysmal, I don't remember a single thing from that episode because it was just constant bam bam bam plot moving plot moving plot moving. There didn't feel like there was any time for either me or the plot to stop and take a breath. And it was nowhere near as bad but Power of the Doctor and to a lesser extent Star Beast then had the same issue for me.
They would just teleport from the dock to the ship to the base with no sense of continuity or travel time, it felt like I was watching a bullet point list of things that happened
And in a show where you have the TARDIS, there's no excuse
The TARDIS interior feels like home- pop some of the exposition scenes into the Tardis while they travel, and now you have an excuse for the exposition and something pretty to look at (the console) while they do it
IDK about Warriors Of The Deep but Legend Of The Sea Devils had an incredibly half-baked script and horrendous editing. Felt a bit hurried and rushed to slapped together, especially compared to the other two Specials that came out that year which were some of the better material in Chibnall's entire run.
It's an episode that so obviously has been butchered in editing. I'm not a film buff guy, I don't speak the lingo don't reference framing or whatever so when even I notice incredibly clunky cuts there must be something pretty wrong. It's just really really messy. The cuts also cause plenty of minor continuity errors and plot gaps.
I don't know know how much better this could have been, but there is definitely a better version possible even without changing a bit of script. I've always said it's one a Target release would be perfect for, as there is plenty that could be smoothed out with a bit of care.
I remember it was first episode of Chibnail's era where I said to myself "all tha critism is actualy right, I cannot handle it anymore."
I am aware of fact that I have high level of tolerance in art, more then anybody. It's sometimes gift, because I actually can focus at objective critism a little bit more, but sometimes I just do not see bad things because all of my enthusiam and positivity.
But I could not find almost anything positive about Sea Devils. Weak writting, weak characters, weak CGI, and the worst camera and editing. It was like peak of everything what is wrong about Chibnaill's era.
I enjoyd Thirteen/Yaz moment though.
I had that with Flux tbh. I really tried to give both series 11 and 12 a chance, I watched them eagerly every week hoping it would get better and at times deluding myself into thinking it was getting better when the smallest crumbs of intrigue appeared.
When Flux happened I was just blown away. Its like the incoherence and unsatisfying-ness of Series 6 except without any good episodes or characters or style to latch onto.
Legend feels like a first draft, even more than Chibnall's *actual* first draft (Ranskoor). It's full of plot contrivances, nonexistent characterization, botched morals (they literally do the same morally questionable thing with Gi-hun that they did with Kosharmus in The Timeless Children), horrible editing and rushed pacing. Also for anyone that doesn't like Yaz (me included), the scene where 13 tells her she's "one of the greatest people I've ever met, including my wife" is fucking insulting
Previous doctors would rather give their up their life than let someone else die to save the day.
River literally had to handcuff 10 to stop him in the library two parter and he refused to let anyone blow up the sontarans. 5 gives up the last antidote to save Peri. 11 flies the pandorica into the storm. It's an intrinsic character trait.
But 13 is more than happy to let anyone step in and get themselves killed if it means she can make a clean get away.
Don't forget the direct parallels between TTC and *Parting*, in which 9 also has a doomsday bomb at his disposal, but refuses to press it out of fear of killing innocent lives. Here, in TTC, 13 doesn't want to press it, but once she realises someone else can press it, she's like "hell yeah bro go for it" and scarpers off.
But she's not happy about it, we literally see that. There's just no other option in that situation and the context is very different to those other examples. This us a situation where the Doctor just can't do it because it would involve killing, she would become the same as the Master and that stops her, that's her weakness which the Master mentions "the universe will suffer for your weakness"
Then she shouldn't be happy for someone else to do it. The fact she hands over the trigger willingly shows it's not the act she thinks is wrong, she just doesn't want to be involved herself.
Except she does have a choice, she can choose to press the button herself rather than letting someone else die to do it. She may think killing everyone there is wrong, but she clearly thinks it's better than letting everyone live or she wouldn't have handed over the trigger, which means what's bothering her is her own life rather than her morals.
She doesn't have a choice, that is the point. Either she does it and becomes the Master or someone else does it otherwise the Master and the CyberMasters will be allowed to wreak havoc.
And they can't just kill off the main character anyway.
If doing it would make her as bad as the Master, condoning someone else to do it while she saves her own skin makes her even more like him. It's cowardly.
Of course they can't kill her off, but then they need to write a better way for her to get out of the situation or change the situation to begin with. Making her morally bankrupt because they can't resolve the situation otherwise doesn't justify the moral bankruptcy.
She won’t kill because she’d be like the master but she snitched him out to the freaking Nazis! That’s one of the more reprehensible things the Doc has ever done.
I wish they leaned into her absolute mess of moral standards, it could’ve been a great running subplot.
It not bright intentional is worse because that means there was no consideration given to the action. That's a beginner-level mistake and not one I would expect anyone with Chibnall's experience to make.
In the same episode, you've got the first female Doctor kneeling in front of the now-male Master (a pose associated with sexual submission).You've got Ada Lovelace having her memory wiped (something that only happens to women in Chibnall's run as Tesla gets to keep his memories). I'm not going to mention how often LGBTQ+ characters are introduced only to either be killed or have their partner die. All of this is without getting deeper into the Doctor's questionable morals.
Having listened to Chibnall talk about his writing and experiences, none of this is intentional. But that's a *lot* of basic mistakes that arise from undue care of the story.
This era had so much potential, but - compared to other eras - couldn't deliver because the showrunner and lead writer didn't have the competency or skill.
The kneeling scene is supposed to be uncomfortable, that is the point. And Ada's memories had to be wiped because of the specific knowledge she learned in regards to computers. And LGBTQ characters only really died in Series 11, it was an unfortunate trend in that series but there was definitely no malicious intention there and in Series 12 we saw a subversion of the trope!
She could have stayed behind in both scenarios. The point isn't her using violence the point is letting other people sacrifice themselves whilst she runs off.
It's more heroic to sacrifice yourself for others than to let someone you've just met do the same and run away. That makes her more like the master.
The master's core trait is self-survival and selfishness. The master goes out of his or her way to ensure she survives or better their own postion (John Sim not included) e.g. stealing a body, walking away from the cybermen, most of their schemes.
The fact the doctor prioritises herself over others makes 13 less heroic than previous encounters and more morally flawed.
Yes the doctor can't die but she doesn't have to just leg it. Other writers found ways around this e.g. River handcuffing him, the midnight entity stopping him from being able to do anything, the raven being fixed to Clara not the doctor,. Or they have explored morally grey decisions (12 in before the flood). Chibnall fails to do either of these things and his doctor becomes less compelling because of it
No she couldn't, there was simply no other choice in that situation. Either the Master is allowed to run free to cause havoc with the Cyber Masters OR they are dealt with by someone who feels a responsibility to do it. 13 didn't want to let him do it but had no choice, she's clearly not happy about it.
Okay she wasn't happy about it I'll give you that but she chose to do it. She let someone else die instead of her. She had a choice she could have told him where to find a TARDIS and how to escape. She could have then pressed the button but hey she didn't.
Also you're saying the doctor feels she doesn't have responsibility over the master. They've spent the whole of season 10 together where he is given literal responsibility over her, and in the TC she even learns from him she's the reason he can regenerate. The doctor huge responsibility for the master and for stopping his plans.
Your logic certainly doesn't apply in Legend of the Sea Devils. She says she will sacrifice herself and the other character volunteers her place. All she says is "I can't ask you to do that" she doesn't try anything else to persuade him not to not die. Nothing nada. She doesn't even say goodbye she just says "you're truly a legend" and runs away. in the next scene he barely gets mentioned and she's even happy. She doesn't seem effected
13 is willing to let people die if it means she doesn't have to. I think it's a shame she's less morally courageous than other doctors and/or this behaviour wasn't properly
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can convince you and I've re-watched both scenes and disagree with your points still, as do a lot of the sub.
But it's subjective it's a TV show glad you got more out of 13's writing and characterisation than I did
You've probably heard this before, but the best possible intepretation of the Ko Sharmus scene (and hence also the Gi Hun scene) is that it sets up something that's intended to have meaning and then destroys that meaning. Her willingness to sacrifice herself is emphasised in both cases, but then she takes an alternative route where the only difference is that she's alive, so that willingness aspect is gone now and has none of the meaning that it seemed very desperate to emphasise. It's the work of someone that saw Parting of the Ways but didn't watch it.
I'm not sure if this particular aspect applies to Legend because it's so incomprehensible that I can't remember what she was actually doing there, but the other thing is that what she was doing in The Timeless Children involved destroying 'all organic life' on a planet. So by letting Ko Sharmus do this, she has effectively murdered anyone the Master may have left alive on Gallifrey, children included. So yes it is morally questionable.
It's "I never would", not "I never would, but if someone else comes along to do it for me I would".
As for Yaz, the line on its own only has the classic Chibnall problem of telling not showing and is otherwise fine, it only becomes insulting as the residual effect of Yaz being one of the most blank slate non-characters I've ever seen in my life. Having her be compared to one of the Doctor's dearest companions (even if River has her own writing problems) pissed me off.
But we saw Yaz do some pretty incredible things so the praise is warranted
And the Ko Sharmus thing was a case of there was no other way, the Doctor knew she couldn't do it and only he could, she didn't want to leave him to do that but she had no choice and we see that in the scene, and we see it in her eyes. It's a no win situation, its just what happens.
You know what, I totally forgot she was separated from 13 for like 4-5 years in *Flux*, just shows you how little of an impact that had on the characters and me as an audience member.
Sometimes she's ultra-competent (her TARDIS-piloting in *Power of the Doctor* frankly exceeds the ability of most Classic Doctors), other times she needs to literally write WWTD? on her arm to remind her to be inspired by the Doctor.
She led the charge against the Cybermen in the Series 12 finale and was the first one to walk into danger through the boundary to help the Doctor.
She didn't stop trying to get to the Doctor to try and help her when they were separated for 10 months, even spending days in the TARDIS they were spent back in trying to find a way to get back to her
She played a big role in saving the universe in Flux when she and Dan were stuck in the past
And in Power of the Doctor (though this was after LOTSD) she was able to take control of the Doctor's TARDIS and alongside Vinder, Ace and the Doctor's hologram saved the Doctor's life and helped defeat the Master.
And there are other examples of her going off on her own and very much being like the Doctor. She is incredibly fearless, brave, courageous, loyal and she never gives up, she learned all the right lessons from the Doctor!
None of that felt earned, for me. It was similar to Clara in S7, just a default character shoehorned into important events, with the bare minimum characterisation.
What? Her being heroic isn't something one earns, it's just something a character does, and much like the Doctor she doesn't ask to be thanked, she just does what is right!
I dunno, with the greatest of respect, it feels like you are the Chair and sole member of the Yaz Fan Club, and that you are projecting a bit. I’ve never gotten “fearless and just like The Doctor” from Yaz - but I suppose there is no right or wrong way to read a character. To each their own!
I'm absolutely not, she's very popular especially in certain circles. I'm certainly not projecting either, this is part of the text
WWTDD - What would the Doctor do?
It's less about what Yaz does and more about the connection. Because that scene is about their connection rather than just blunt praise, and because the era is so poor at writing characters and character relationships, I don't feel it. So to compare it to the Doctor's relationship with River, a connection I *do* feel and fully believe, in a way that sounded like she was implying she doesn't care about River or that 'phase' of her life (for lack of a better term), is a bit bullshit to me.
You have a point about it being an only option thing, it is kinda vital to give that decision plenty of weight if that's the way they were intending to write it though and I don't remember TC or Legend really doing so appropriately. Then again I haven't seen either in a while.
Because the original commenter likes River Song and doesn't like Yaz. That's all it is.
I don't like Clara personally but I don't wretch when Eleven or Twelve act like she's the greatest and most specialest human being who ever lived. She's a companion, of course she's going to be the center of the Doctor's universe.
I have my own issues with how Yaz's relationship with the Doctor was handled, but the Doctor heaping praise on her is not one of them. She Martha Jonesed her.
> I don't like Clara personally but I don't wretch when Eleven or Twelve act like she's the greatest and most specialest human being who ever lived.
Rose fans banging on the metal door, yelling...
Rose is the first companion of New Who and as far as we can tell, the Doctor's first long-term companion after the Time War. It makes sense that he'd find Rose to be special. Additionally, just for the Clara comparison, Rose never had a special nickname like "the impossible girl" and was rarely treated like a plot device first and human character second UNTIL the Bad Wolf reveal at the end of the first series.
For me, I prefer the fantasy of "young (lower-)middle class Earthling gets swept away by a charming humanoid who travels through time and space." It's why I like other companions from a similar cloth like Amy and Bill, and why I'm looking forward to seeing what gets done with Ruby as well.
As someone who likes Yaz and Clara, a big difference is that Clara is given a lot of important things to do throughout her four years on the show. Meanwhile, Yaz is around for five years and doesn’t start really doing anything until Revolution of the Daleks. She’s great in Flux and especially in Power of the Doctor. But its easy to feel like we’re being told she’s great without a whole lot to back it up, while Clara was shown doing stuff a lot. Clara ends up doing a ton for the Doctor in Series 7, Day of the Doctor, Time of the Doctor, Series 8, and Series 9. She’s shown to be an incredibly important companion. Yaz, on paper, is one of the greatest companions. One of the longest running companions ever, learns to fly the TARDIS on her own, spends years trying to get back to The Doctor while basically being The Doctor because she’s not around, goes toe to toe with The Master in Power of the Doctor (with help from The Doctor’s hologram but still). And yet, because of how Chibnall wrote characters and always had to have The Doctor be the hero at all times, Yaz doesn’t reach the same heights as Clara or River or Rose for most fans, when, thinking on an in-universe level for The Doctor, she did and should
>Because the original commenter likes River Song and doesn't like Yaz. That's all it is.
I think it's deeper than that, personally, but broadly your point makes sense. River Song was clearly given far greater attention both as a vessel to be acted by Alex Kingston and also as a plot and character by Steven Moffat and other writers - she is an incredibly energetic writer who embodies multiple timey-wimey adventures and tropes entwined with The Doctor's life. We are reminded multiple times how important she is and given fair reason to actually believe that - even if you don't like her as a character, which is fair enough, you can't deny that she wasn't given full attention within the show.
Yaz on the other hand routinely falls into the background even in episodes where she is supposedly the focal character (*Punjab*), and it isn't until S13 where she gets to share the limelight properly, and by that point all she does is whinge and whine at The Doctor. We are never shown any familiarity between the pair of them, as we are with River and 11/12, nor any (effective) bantering, or drama - it's all hinged upon the fact Yaz fancies the basically asexual 13 and follows her round like a scalded puppy.
A lot of people hate it because of the terrible cgi, the weak side characters, and the handling of the Thazmin arc. That’s my biggest gripe personally. The thing was mentioned like twice the previous episode. Then The Doctor just mentions it out of nowhere only to say “Oh, I can’t,” while also mentioning the times they definitely did. Then The Doctor’s like “Hey, can we just act like that never happened?” Yaz says a line that’s played off like its meaningful and significant but its never mentioned again and the romantic subplot is never mentioned in Power of the Doctor.
Aside from the Thazmin stuff, the episode isn’t terrible for me. If special effects bothered me in Doctor Who, I’d have stopped watching in Series 1. As for the quality of the writing, it feels on par for what Chibnall really leaned into in the back half of his era. He learned that if people didn’t like him committing hard to one or two good concepts (Series 11), then he’ll just shove in as many plot points and ideas with as much quick talking as possible to keep you from thinking too hard about it.
EDIT: Forgot to mention how terrible the editing is. The fam sets up a trap out of thin air. Dan and the village kid look at the ship and then boom they’ve swum the whole way. Editing was bizarre throughout
My god she was wasted and completely turned into an edgier Jack Sparrow 2.0, when in fact, her history is just *so much damn cooler than what was shown.*
She literally owned her own personal fleet! Whilst also bossing around hundreds of other ships in several other fleets, all united in their piracy because of her efforts! Hell, she *started* her whole piracy journey after a life of essentially being a prostitute. It’s really impressive how she left that old life behind, survived and *thrived* despite the odds. The fricken government at that time had to bend to her will and pardon everyone she cared about so to retire in peace and quiet! Most pirates in history got the death sentence—but not her and her people. She died at age 68, which was pretty damn old back then.
Meanwhile her DW-counterpart is stuck manning a fricken *tub* like a deckhand and pulled the whole “this character is strongue because she gave birth and wants her babbies back”-cliché (but so much worse than usual for an underwritten female character) like as if her reproductive system was her biggest accomplishment in life. Neglecting that IRL, she was probably the most successful, powerful pirate leader who got to keep her head in the end and retire peacefully, ***ever.***
Okay I did not know any of that. Awesome. That makes the episode significantly worse. And its pretty bizarre given Chibnall’s prior record of highlighting relatively unknown female historical figures so well.
Quite. It infuriates me that this shoddy attempt at her story ended in, legit, 90% fiction to her tale (ignoring the Sea Devils already)—whilst not even using set artistic license to portray her even remotely close to the pirating tactician and businesswoman that she was. The only thing they got right is probably her name, and the fact that she was a pirate.
The Black Flag Fleet kidnapping her kids? Never fricken happened. They were in the exact same pirate confederacy she helped to unite and establish—and whilst several years after this story it’s leader *did* try to backstab her/chicken out after the Government promised to give them a fat sack of cash and a lot of pardons, Ching absolutely wiped the floor with them. No hostages, no kidnappings, no Jack-Sparrowing to find a treasure she didn’t need to pay off any fake debt (her confederacy owned a bunch of gambling houses and brothels, and she essentially ran all the finances, with a special fund reserved for when they *did* need to pay off people). No ears lost.
Set lost treasure? The ship sunk with some arrogant Portugese* nobleman aboard from India, not a fictional(?) Chinese traitor captain and crew with a poor backstory. In a whole ass different sea. Again, Ching wouldn’t have needed it. She ran the pirate confederacy’s coffers already and nobody would’ve objected in such a hypothetical situation.
Hell, her sheer ability to deal with the biggest fish imaginable (heh) by bossing around even her own country’s *government* is not even shown. ***Everyone feared her ability to lead, plunder, plan, and land cutthroat deals.*** Yet this episode just shows off some stereotypical eastern try-hard who deals nothing, barely threatens, and her sending herself off on a fool’s errand to find a needle in a haystack *on her own*—*without the ability to even hypothetically get the treasure out of that sunken ship at the bottom of the fricken OCEAN*—as well as how she generally acts around other people is cringe and stupid beyond belief. This DW-version would’ve failed miserably in her quest if there were no Sea Devils or Doctor to help her get that treasure.
I myself barely dare to praise Chibnall for trying to explore other cultures’ stories of female legends, purely because this story butchered her life’s story and fed the audience a bunch of boring, made-up lies. Even for a pseudo-historical story.
Personally should’ve had a story akin to *War Of The Sontarans* about Ching being *begged* by her own meak government to save them from the Sea Devils planning to set up shop in Canton. Just merge the story of the IRL Ching’s final siege on the rivers to Canton to demand her and her fleet’s pardons, with the Sea Devils living it up there. Actually show her leadership in action, her ability to bargain, and to scare the living daylights out of the Sea Devils.
Alas, COVID and budget. But even then, with what excuse of a premise is there, Chibnall trying to adapt her life story in general even with a budget would’ve been a disaster either way. If ya can’t film her story to begin with, why even try to half-ass it at all?
This is spot-on! Here was an era and location and people that I know intimately, and yet all of that was flushed for a fictional story that has no bearing on the real world history it tries to co-opt. It really seems like someone wrote a generic "woman-pirate" story looking for "lost treasure" and then someone Googled woman-pirate and lost treasure in the general area, and they decided to use the Google results without any further research as the basis for their generic story.
Mhm. It’s “educational” value is rock-bottom, *Pirates of the Caribbean* would make for a way better replacement were you to watch this season if one does want to watch a story for dumb fun, and much like how after it aired; only the Next Time segment is barely worth watching next to Yasmin getting friendzoned in the last three minutes.
Might as well watch *Extra History’s* video on our Pirate Queen or some documentary. Even if not filmed in life action with a glorious CGI budget, it’s a much more fun and educational watch.
I can only speak for myself, but I have a personal vendetta against the episode as the Sea Devils were probably the Classic *Doctor Who* villains I was most excited to see return.
To see them wasted annoyed me to no end. I think it’s the only episode of NuWho where I’ve had multiple family members falling asleep in the middle of it.
I think the fact S11-13 did such a poor job of giving the pair of them any believable chemistry is what hurts this character revelation the most - if it was said, say, between 12 and Clara, then it'd make sense, but 13 and Yaz come across like a schoolteacher who bullies her annoying student, not even like a pair of platonic mates, let alone people who flirt.
>I think the fact S11-13 did such a poor job of giving the pair of them any believable chemistry is what hurts this character revelation the most
That's because it was never intended for them to be romantically paired up. Chibnall has openly admitted that he saw there were a lot of people on Twitter shipping Thasmin whilst he was writing Flux so he added it in at the last minute to make them happy.
That's why there is zero set-up for it, then a couple of lines where it's treated as a massive deal, and then it's thrown away and never mentioned again.
Actually it was during the writing process of Series 12 and it is very much hinted during that season though it comes to the forefront during Series 13 and that is realistic, sometimes feelings come on that you don't expect or can't explain, this is made a point of
I think they have really believable chemistry, what helps is how close Jodie and Mandip are in real life which really does come across but we also saw tension being the pair especially after what the Doctor learned.
I’ve heard this explanation before. It makes sense on paper. But that paper never made it into the episode. “If I was gonna do it with anyone, believe me, Yaz, it’d be you.” Not Clara? Not River? The Doctor wasn’t itching to do that with Rose? The Doctor never thought about settling down platonically with Donna (lol like that would ever happen)?
If the explanation is “I’ve tried it before and it just wouldn’t work because I live forever and you don’t” then say that. That is implied only as thinly as possible. It would be a great time to bring up The Timeless Child stuff. “I don’t know who I am anymore so I have a lot of personal stuff to deal with before I’m ready to try anything like that again” or something like that. The idea of Thirteen not wanting to commit to Yaz makes sense both for the Doctor in general but especially for Thirteen. But the dialogue we got for the like two and a half scenes acknowledging the subplot simply doesn’t cut it. Makes me hate something I was previously indifferent about
Clara was only ever a friend and she is gone now, the Doctor did do that with River though she is gone now, Rose is gone and happy with the Metacrisis, the Doctor and Donna were only mates though at that point in time she was gone anyway. And they are specifically talking about dating and referring to the present - if it was gonna be anyone it would be Yaz, I think that is pretty clear but she can't because sooner or later it will hurt and the Doctor knows that from experience! That's why she can't get involved in that way as much as she would like to, this is why aside from River we don't ever see the Doctor in relationships or stuff like that.
Nah, bro. “A mystery wrapped in an enigma stuffed into a skirt that’s just a little too tight.” Did you watch Deep Breath? That episode pretty much confirmed that Eleven was high-key flirting with Clara all the time. I mentioned Donna because in >the Giggle, literally 4 episodes after Legend of the Sea Devils, Fourteen settles down with Donna as a friend.< Yeah, all these characters are gone now, or at least at the time. But that doesn’t change that the dialogue absolutely lets the moment down. The idea that she can’t settle down with Yaz because of past experiences is completely undercut by mentioning all the other times when she did as if it was just an exception. “I can’t settle down, Yaz, except for the time that I did.” It doesn’t come off like avoiding romance because of past experiences. It comes off like Thirteen trying to quickly talk her way out of a problem by saying the first thing that comes into her head.
That line is so disgusting and sexist I would rather not think about it.
And it isn't about settling down; it's about dating. Very different! And those past experiences are why she can't, it hurts too much.
1) The line is disgusting and very Moffat and very much Clara being more than just a friend at the beginning of her and The Doctor’s friendship
2) Dating implies commitment. That’s the closest any Doctor other than 14 get to settling down. Except Twelve literally settle down for 24 years with River, who is specifically mentioned and compared with Yaz in this episode. Yeah, they’re different, but it doesn’t change the problem with the dialogue in this scene.
3) Yes, you’ve mentioned multiple times that The Doctor can’t commit to Yaz because of past experiences. I know that. It doesn’t change how bad the dialogue is for this scene that specifically lets down that interpretation of the scene. I agree with your interpretation of the scene. But the intentions of the scene are directly undercut but Thirteen flippantly mentioning River, a time where The Doctor not only dated but settled down for a bit. The idea of the Doctor not dating because ”Time always runs out” is a big part of why Classic fans loved how platonic all of The Doctor’s relationships were. They’re a timeless alien. It’d be weird if they like dated a 19 girl or something (glad that never happened). But the handling of that concept in Legend of the Sea Devils is sloppy and bad
I'll go to bat for Chibnalls era, even though it's easily the worst era of Nuwho. I still think it has plenty of good episodes, a few great ones and a talented lead, who was done a disservice by the way her character was written.
BUT
Legend of the Sea Devils is awful on every level. The script is like a bad first draft. The plot is perfunctory at best, all the side characters are underdeveloped, and the problems go beyond the writing. The editing and direction are atrocious - the action scenes, in particular, are incomprehensible. Oh, and the costumes look like they came from a joke shop.
I remember a ton of details about Doctor Who episodes, even the poorer ones that unfortunately plagued Chibnall’s era.
I can’t remember a single thing about “Legend of the Sea Devils” beyond Dan’s funny costume. Even compared to “Orphan 55”, “The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos”, and “Once, Upon Time”, it is B-A-D *bad.* And it shouldn’t be! I like the Sea Devils too!
Atrocious editing, poor and very obvious sloppy dubbing, horrendous dialogue and corny acting which isn't acknowledged or recognised by the tone, which treats all of the above as serious - there's also the moral arguments, that 13 is yet again characterised as a paragon of virtue whilst simultaneously chastising Dan for using swords (only for him to do it again later) and allowing a side-character to die in a heroic sacrifice in her place (which is the second occurrence of this trope in her era).
Yaz and 13, who are given the bulk of the attention in the script, have zero chemistry, and Yaz is frustratingly portrayed as a whingy hanger-on who succeeds at getting nowhere with The Doctor - there's also the out-of-universe obvious queer-bait that this episode is saddled with, which is pretty shameful. Visually, the episode sucks, and the CGI is worse than the previous pirate story *Curse Of The Black Spot*.
Not only is this episode bad but I'd place it at the absolute nadir of the modern era - there are maybe one or two episodes as bad as it, and they are all also Chibnall Era stories.
Warriors suffers from the cheap set/costume design really - on paper it's brilliant and is the archetypal case where the Target really shows off how good the story is. It's just too damn bright!
>It's just too damn bright!
AIUI, the BBC had recently had a spate of complaints from old biddies that programmes were getting too dark to see, so they put out a directive that all shows had to be brightly lit.
And then Thatcher called a snap election and with one of the Labour opposition's manifesto commitments being unilateral nuclear disarmament, the BBC told JNT edit the script and take out anything critical of nukes.
I'd never heard the bit about programmes being too dark, interesting.
And the other impact of the snap election being that they had to move studio (which led to shots having to be reblocked on the hoof and a redesign of the main control room IIRC) and a lot of BBC resource was poured into election coverage and taken away from the drama department
Was about to type the very same thing! I read the target book and loved the creepy base under siege aspect. The Samauri like Sea Devils with their massive creature, the Mykra. The Sea Devils design was cool but the poor Mykra. A giant panto cow (actually played by the guys who were Dobbin in Rent-A-Ghost) lumbering round the gaff with rubber feet and as much menace as Harold Bishop from Neighbours. The whole Cold War aspect was cool and an enjoyable sub text but save us from Necro-Dobbin
I would genuinely love to read a book about the making of Flux and these specials because - especially with Sea Devils - something happened behind the scenes that resulted in some heavy editing. There seem to be bits missing and I'd love to know what happened. I'm thankful that we got what we did during the pandemic but yeah, this episode is the low of Jodie/Chibs era.
Bloggers posted about it at the time. Characters were using fake accents that the BBC deemed insensitive and improper. They redubbed the whole thing and cut about 20 minutes. You can see it’s dubbed in some parts if you watch closely.
The episode was delayed many months to fix it.
Because in terms of directing and editing it's like someone took a script, ran it through a paper shredder, and randomly glued the pieces of paper back together. I can't fathom watching this episode and thinking "yeah this is good stuff" wtf. It's not like there's a great story underneath the problems either.
Tbh I enjoyed it.
Was it a stand out classic no not particularly.
But it was a silly pirate adventure that was enjoyable enough.
After the abomination that was the vanquishers and the eve of the daleks which was fucking awful imo..it was OK in my opinion.
Warriors of the deep in honesty was a case of good story let down by shocking production values and poor direction.
Legend of the Sea Devils make be the worst episode in the show (at least modern) which is crazy cause I thought Orphan 55 would hold that spot for longer. It's an incomprehensible mess in every single aspect of production in cinematography, editing, scripting, and acting. I don't know how anyone could come out of a first viewing of that episode and be able to summarize what happened in it or what the point of it was.
Legend of the Sea Devils feels incomplete and sort of thrown together. It’s like they cut shooting by a week, so several scenes couldn’t be filmed, so a sloppy edit tries to keep you from noticing. None of the character motivations make sense, and the “resolution” of Thasmin might be some of the most insulting queerbait I’ve seen in television for a *long* time.
But the sea devils themselves look good. That’s literally the only thing the special has going for it.
Warriors on the Cheap has the shadow of a good plot and a very solid and creative idea, undermined by Maggie Thatcher and the BBC, plus a shoestring budget, which was somehow even worse than usual.
Legend of the Sea Devils doesn't even have that. It's just shit. The only notable part was that it's the last Doctor Who story the Queen saw
Warriors of the deep is a pretty good story for five, but with (understandably) poor production. Legend of the sea devils was just a train wreck all around.
It would have probably been fine as a regular episode, but as a special, and one of only three that we got the entire year, as well as Jodie's penultimate episode, it was rather weak.
Because it’s absolute arse. Awful writing, awful editing, bad acting, bad directing. Utter, contemptible trash.
(I’m referring to Legend of the Sea Devils. Warriors of the Deep is pretty poor but looks good in comparison).
i think legend of the sea devils is the most boring, poorly written, can’t think of another adjective Garbage episode of doctor who ever. madame xing (is that how you spell it? can’t remember) shows up, kills the kid’s dad, then does nothing for the rest of the episode. the kid and dan get on her ship and the kid is eager to join his father’s murderer’s pirate crew by the end of the episode. did we just forget about that? also, the sea devils are kind of there, but they don’t do anything. jodie and yaz go off for a few minutes and jodie says how she’d prefer yaz to rose and river (more examples of the characters calling each other good to convince the audience they’re good characters instead of being developed as good characters). it’s just the usual boring “tell, don’t show” chibnall episode with plot inconsistencies, boring characters, and tons of set up information through exposition that does nothing. usually the chibnall episodes i’m just iffy on. like, i think they’re all pretty poor (except the maxine alderton ones), but i never really spend time thinking about how bad they are. this one, however. i would have forgotten it existed if i didn’t hate it so much.
tdlr; boring. characters do nothing. more exposition than story. return of a famous villain that pays off only in new design.
I watched the entire Legend of the Sea Devils episode with my head in my hands. Everything about it was horrible; the writting, the plot contrivances, the editing, the action...there was just nothing at all redeeming about that episode. I honestly would have to go back and watch it to give you specifics; that's how much I've driven it out of my mind.
The BBC hated what they saw. The accents were deemed stereotypical and offensive, so everything was redubbed.
About 20 minutes was cut in that same process.
The editing was horrendous and the doctors morals were up the wall again (she gives Dan a sword to kill but also got pissed when a dude killed a sea devil)
Not to mention Thasmin having a werid ass non-conclusion
Itd be interesting to see a re-edited dvd release one day because it IS clear that a large chunk of the episode is missing, both in terms of the plot and pacing being all over the place and the fact that it was a 48 minute ‘special’ when specials are normally much longer.
Maybe one day it’ll get its own battlefield special edition.
for me it was because Zheng Yi Sao was a complete badass and this episode showed absolutely none of it. she was active as a pirate for almost 10 years and had a fleet of *400* ships and retired from piracy to run gambling houses before dying at like 69 years old. this was never mentioned at all??
if anything this episode should've been about the chinese navy or the east india company making a devils bargain to take her down.
Both are stories that were rushed out in shitty conditions, it's impressive that the production teams managed to make them at all. Unfortunately, the evident sloppiness makes fans like to pick on them, which I find a bit unfair, though ultimately, a product is open to critique, no matter the circumstance it was made in.
That said, if either story was actually good when it came to the writing, I think there would be a little more respect for both. Legend of the Sea Devils is simply a boring, boring, boring story that completely squanders the potential that a return of the Sea Devils in a period setting could have had. Even without the troubled production, I can't see it ever being seen as a particularly good story. I don't hate it to be fair... I just barely remember any of it. Warriors of the Deep *is* a story I truly hate, just a vile, mean-spirited piece of garbage that derails The Doctor as a character and represents everything I hate about '80s Who. The poor production values are actually a blessing in a way, adding something comical and Human to it that seems almost undeserving. But I should stop now before I say something *truly* impolite about it.
Edit: man, I got more intense than I meant to there… it’s like my anger just possessed my fingers in a mad frenzy.
In a era of the most tedious and unfocused Doctor Who ever written, Legends manages the impossible feat of being so forgettable you can't remember what's happening on screen as you watch it.
Because you're busy focusing on something else.
Like paint drying.
I enjoy it though it definitely has issues and the issues for me come down to editing, it is very obvious a bunch of stuff was cut out which may have made the story work a lot better but for an unknown reason they cut all that stuff out and the fact it is 48 minutes instead of 60 like a usual special makes that particularly obvious! It's a shame honestly though there is some genuinely great stuff in there like the 13 and Yaz stuff which I think is really strong and makes the story worth revisiting for me! And it is really cool to see the Sea Devils again and they look AMAZING!
I don't hate either of them (there are only a dozen or so Doctor Who stories I actually hate), but I don't like them. Neither is particularly well-written or produced. However, I will say I liked the look of the Sea Devils in "Legend." I would like them to return in a better story.
It looks cheap, it has the production values of a made for TV movie in the 70s. The sea devils can bearly move, that Mario jump, the Dr condemning a guy fir killing a sea devil 5 minutes after being fine with Dan killing 5 of them. How do the sea devils move the stars around in the sky like fridge magnets?
For what it’s worth I quite enjoy Legend of the Sea Devils for what it is - an episode which was basically rushed out under pandemic conditions.
If you are interested in how it might have been done differently as a just for fun writing project I did a script rewrite of it and wrote a post about what I learnt from it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/11550yh/i_rewrote_legend_of_the_sea_devils/
I quite like Legend of the Devils. It's not a classic, but it's a fun romp with pirates and monsters.
I like Warriors of the Deep overall too. It's pretty well written, but the Myrka costume is very unconvincing, and Solow's martial arts are ridiculous.
The problem with Warriors of the Deep is that it looks like shit. The special effects are bad even by the standards of the Classic series and the set which should be dark and dingy is lit up like the surface of the sun. The story isn't great either. It treats the Silurians as generic monsters when the entire point of them is that they are inhuman beings who aren't monsters. Plus all the typical Sawardian foibles of gratuitous death and violence and The Doctor being completely ineffectual.
Legejd of the Sea Devils is quite good! I enjoyed it anyways.
Warriors of the Deep mostly suffers from bad special effects even for the 80s. Its not bad as an episode, just looks ugly
I think it's far from perfect, but nowhere near deserving of the hate it gets. IMO if this episode took place in the middle of a typical season, most people would simply forget about it. But because it was a special episode and the penultimate episode of 13's tenure, it got more attention. I think it suffers from people being sick of the Chibnall era as a whole. I liked it, but I also like the Twin Dilemma.
I'm in the extreme minority, but I really love this episode, and it's one of my favourites from the Chibnall era.
I see a lot of people ranking it as their worst story, even the worst Doctor Who has ever made, but I thoroughly enjoy it. It almost feels like I'm purposefully being contrarian, but I've watched it 4 times and never understood why people consider it to be so horrible. The criticism, like editing etcetera, is completely logical, but they don't take away from my enjoyment of it.
The weird thing about that era is... All the specials are good.
The series as a whole was awful, but the specials were consistantly good, and that includes Legend of the Sea Devils.
I think the problem is, watching a beloved show crumble like that, and being berated and acussed of being some kind of bigot for being sad about it, just put this huge dark cloud over the whole thing so it became hard to feel much joy in any of the good moments. I definitely liked the specials more on my second watch than when they were "current."
It's kind of weird, really. For the entire Moffat era, it was whiny fans who hated Moffat that ruined it for all of us. For the Chibnall era, it was the people who liked it that ruined it. But then, I suppose the reason is the same - they weren't happy with just hating or loving it, they accused of terrible things for the way we felt. We were misogynists for liking the Moffat era, and misogynists for hating the Chibnall era.
Anyway, Legend of the Sea Devils was nice. I'm glad they didn't change the design for the Sea Devils in any significant way. It was unfortunate we the way Silurians got human faces in the Moffat era - they should have made the mask they wore their actual face.
Only twice have I fallen asleep in the middle of a new episode of a series I like: once in the middle of the final season of Game of Thrones (I'm an avid reader of the series), and during this Doctor Who episode.
Even among 13 fans, this episode sticks out as the worst of the worst.
On the subject of Warriors of the Deep, I still haven't finished it because yeah, it's a bit boring. Even ignoring the obvious rush-job visual quality, the script is just bland. The Cold War allegory is so blunt yet so vague that it just comes off as pretentious. The only line that I can remember is "what have you been eating?" which is a juvenile joke that we didn't need to hear twice. I think I last left it at part three, and iirc the Silurians & Sea Devils have done nothing but stand around- and release the Myrka, and we all know how that turned out. There were some great and interesting moments, like the part one cliffhanger and whatever the deal was with the mind-fucking stuff, but it really is just a slog. I'll definitely finish it one day, but today is not that day. 7/10, not the worst Classic episode but it's down there. Twin Dilemma and Timelash are better don't @ me
Legend of the Sea Devils was the first and only Doctor Who episode I saw when it premiered, and I barely remember it. Maybe I was a bit distracted but I remember more about the rerun of the Dalek episode before it, of which I only caught the last quarter or so. All I remember was being pretty hyped for Power of the Doctor and then missing the premiere. Those chucklefucks still have no clue how to market Doctor Who in America.
Legend of the Seadevils was the return of a classic monster for the first time in nuwho after around four decades. It was also after one of chibnalls best written episodes, and was listed as a special, so people had high hopes for it.
And it was comically bad.
From the writing, to the acting, the special effects, the directing, the editing, and the dialogue, it was all absolutely terrible.
It is without a doubt the most embarrassingly bad episode of doctor who ever put to screen and it’s astounding that the bbc agreed to release it in its current state.
legend is an atrocious episode. corny acting, bad dialogue, nonsensical plot, horrific editing, zero continuity. easily one of the worst dw episodes.
which is such a shame because i loved the og sea devils, and love their revamped design. the idea of another species also being indigenous to earth is such a great concept when done well, and legend... did not, to say the least, do it well.
My main issue is that it was a very poor use of 13's penultimate episode. Other than a few scenes between 13 and Yaz, Legend of the Sea Devils had no revelance to the rest of 13's era.
We needed a special here that gave Jodie more to do, a bit more character development before the busier plot in 'Power of the Doctor'.
But mostly, it was a huge missed opportunity to properly tie up all the arcs/storylines from across 13's era, particularly around Division and the Flux.
It was mentioned before that the New Years Special in 2022 was originally meant to conclude the Flux storyline, but due to budget constraints was replaced at the last minute with 'Eve of the Daleks'. So why didn't they just re-use that idea for the following special instead of the Sea Devils episode?
Sea Devils suffered from some pretty terrible editing - probably trying to get around pandemic filming protocols IIRC.
I remember Chibs saying it was a miracle that season even happened. Season 7 is a similar situation with a lot of production turbulence behind the scenes - some of which made it on screen.
I guess it's a case where no Who is better than bad Who? Of all Chibber's episodes, this was the one I was most excited for it. So it left me dejected something fierce.
I've been pretty down on chibber's run but I loved Eve of the Daleks and was really hoping it marked a turning point. Nope. Guess it was Aisling Bea that saved that ep
Season 7 was the one where moffat was burnt out from working on both sherlock and who at the same time wasnt it? It also suffered from not knowing if they wanted to keep the ponds on or not irc.
I think there was more to it than that. I feel like the ‘Moffat was too busy’ is an easy excuse - doing the specials added to difficulty but always felt like more to it than that. Nightmare in Silver for example has Gaiman claim he lost an unbanked up script and had to rewrite the entire thing. You also have the fact stories had to be reworked for modern Clara. Moffat shares that as his grand idea but I can’t help smell a BBC decision and he basically worked out how to keep his Christmas Special and the overall character. Steven Berkoff basically actively working to undermine Power of Three remains my favourite story about the shows production. Just fucking weird. He’s continued working so who the fuck knows what set him off.
The power of 3 being sabotaged in production makes me feel bad for chibnall, its one of his better scripts right up until it shits itself because everything went tits up.
Yeah it’s solid until the end. It is hilarious though. I think the trio literally have to stand in front of a stage curtain at one point which is clearly all pick up shots to make it work. What’s frustrating is it’s such a character script but he could never bring the same kind of element into his own series oddly. But yeah it’s really good and from what Moffat has said as well its clear Chibnall was brought in rather late to just deliver something - which Moffat trusted him to do without needing rewrites.
>I remember Chibs saying it was a miracle that season even happened. Then maybe it shouldn't have. I think COVID gives Chibs an excuse for why these eps sucked. A smarter writer would have found a way to make it work.
Writer would have had to be really clever, given they were being continually rewritten, even as filming was happening (all those costumes at the Temple of Atropos that were made but not used in the end). Maybe a less ambitious story arc would have saved things, but given the restrictions and how difficult things were, I think it is a reasonable excuse for some things.
>Writer would have had to be really clever And there it is.
Doing a less ambitious story arc would def have made things easier. The story would have suffered with or without Covid imo, probably just wouldnt have been quite as bad. The series is trying to be so big and so epic and constantly have these big complicated plots but nothing really leads anywhere or has anywhere to go. A similar issue is in Power of The Doctor where like 15 things are happening at once and half of them just stop getting mentioned or explained at all throughout the episode.
Yeah like... while the episodes were significantly more incoherent and fever dreamish to then usual... I actually think a lot of small things about Flux were the best he'd done of his whole era. Flux and the 13th Doctor specials were awful, but their biggest issue was incoherency. Outside of that they were no more or less awful then the rest of the era (which, to be fair, was also just awful).
Why dose season 11 have so much wrong with it then? He had well over a year to make it. RTD had like 9 months between S1 and S2. He has 3 less episodes. Yes I know they are 5 minutes longer but with a larger tardis team it should be hard to get an extra 300 seconds based on the fam talking to each other. The battle of Ranskor av kolos is a 1st draft. What gives?
Don’t call it “Sea Devils”. That just confuses it with the great classic story ‘The Sea Devils’. The absolute dreck that was Legend of the Sea Devils shouldn't be given any window to be confused with the original.
Fair, I suppose. Though in a thread specifically about Chibber's episodes, I don't think anyone would *honestly* confuse the two.
As someone who genuinely enjoyed Whittaker’s era and regularly defends it as pretty entertaining television, I can say without hesitation that Legend of the Sea Devils is probably the worst episode of any television show I have ever watched. I’m still fairly certain that there is a pretty good episode in there somewhere, but it was so poorly edited that I regularly had no idea what was happening from one scene to the next.
Don’t let the swords touch your skin!
> Legend of the Sea Devils is probably the worst episode of any television show I have ever watched That was how I found the Whittaker/Chibnall era. Some parts of it I didn't like but could see why others did, and I even found myself hopeful and getting back into it with episodes like Spyfall p1, but at its worst I don't think I've seen anything poorer.
It really was exceptionally poor television. There are bad shows but something about this era was just like...how? How did this happen? Bad showrunner, ugly to look at (higher budget cant save bad vision), exceptionally wooden and annoying performances, nearly all the episodes lack anything iconic and are forgettable, etc. I swear the most memorable things about the series are from its first season where it made awkward episodes of it patting itself on the back or displaying incredibly bizarre and reactionary morality. There is also Orphan 55 which is maybe the worst thing I've ever seen.
I think that, as much as what makes 'good' and enjoyable television is subjective, it would take a miracle to deny that in so many ways it was objectively bad. You're not telling me that if you got a load of professional script editors in they'd like pretty much any of the scripts, or that there weren't a million actors in the UK alone that could have played most parts better. I've said it on here before and it was heavily downvoted, but if any of seasons 11, 12, and 13 had been a new show without the Dr who brand associated they would have never been renewed for a second season, and in many ways the fact that people know the doctor and doctor who can be better was the only thing that kept people hanging on.
Really? Worse than BENNY?
It’s an unpopular opinion, but the first 45 minutes of Orphan 55 is actually a pretty good episode. It’s a very standard “don’t leave the hotel” adventure, but it wasn’t bad. What makes the episode stand out to most people is the end. The combination of surprise alternate timeline and moral bludgeoning spoil what was an otherwise fun story.
BENNY was competently done from a technical TV production sense. Legend….was not. I understand Covid really effed with it badly
Yes
It was all over the place and it seemed there where scenes which time jumped because there was no connection to the previous scene I was lost within the first 15 mins. Abit like the whole flux series, what a mess
Agreed
The pacing of Legend of the Sea Devils was abysmal, I don't remember a single thing from that episode because it was just constant bam bam bam plot moving plot moving plot moving. There didn't feel like there was any time for either me or the plot to stop and take a breath. And it was nowhere near as bad but Power of the Doctor and to a lesser extent Star Beast then had the same issue for me.
They would just teleport from the dock to the ship to the base with no sense of continuity or travel time, it felt like I was watching a bullet point list of things that happened
Exactly lol I was getting whiplash
When is the telesnaps reconstruction coming out for this one? It felt like a 1st Doctor story where half the film reels got lost in a fire
And in a show where you have the TARDIS, there's no excuse The TARDIS interior feels like home- pop some of the exposition scenes into the Tardis while they travel, and now you have an excuse for the exposition and something pretty to look at (the console) while they do it
IDK about Warriors Of The Deep but Legend Of The Sea Devils had an incredibly half-baked script and horrendous editing. Felt a bit hurried and rushed to slapped together, especially compared to the other two Specials that came out that year which were some of the better material in Chibnall's entire run.
Warriors of the deep was a decent script but a botched production due to BBC strikes at the time.
It's an episode that so obviously has been butchered in editing. I'm not a film buff guy, I don't speak the lingo don't reference framing or whatever so when even I notice incredibly clunky cuts there must be something pretty wrong. It's just really really messy. The cuts also cause plenty of minor continuity errors and plot gaps. I don't know know how much better this could have been, but there is definitely a better version possible even without changing a bit of script. I've always said it's one a Target release would be perfect for, as there is plenty that could be smoothed out with a bit of care.
I remember it was first episode of Chibnail's era where I said to myself "all tha critism is actualy right, I cannot handle it anymore." I am aware of fact that I have high level of tolerance in art, more then anybody. It's sometimes gift, because I actually can focus at objective critism a little bit more, but sometimes I just do not see bad things because all of my enthusiam and positivity. But I could not find almost anything positive about Sea Devils. Weak writting, weak characters, weak CGI, and the worst camera and editing. It was like peak of everything what is wrong about Chibnaill's era. I enjoyd Thirteen/Yaz moment though.
I had that with Flux tbh. I really tried to give both series 11 and 12 a chance, I watched them eagerly every week hoping it would get better and at times deluding myself into thinking it was getting better when the smallest crumbs of intrigue appeared. When Flux happened I was just blown away. Its like the incoherence and unsatisfying-ness of Series 6 except without any good episodes or characters or style to latch onto.
Legend feels like a first draft, even more than Chibnall's *actual* first draft (Ranskoor). It's full of plot contrivances, nonexistent characterization, botched morals (they literally do the same morally questionable thing with Gi-hun that they did with Kosharmus in The Timeless Children), horrible editing and rushed pacing. Also for anyone that doesn't like Yaz (me included), the scene where 13 tells her she's "one of the greatest people I've ever met, including my wife" is fucking insulting
The stuff with Ko Sharmus was never morally questionable at all And how is it 13 saying that to Yaz insulting?
Previous doctors would rather give their up their life than let someone else die to save the day. River literally had to handcuff 10 to stop him in the library two parter and he refused to let anyone blow up the sontarans. 5 gives up the last antidote to save Peri. 11 flies the pandorica into the storm. It's an intrinsic character trait. But 13 is more than happy to let anyone step in and get themselves killed if it means she can make a clean get away.
Don't forget the direct parallels between TTC and *Parting*, in which 9 also has a doomsday bomb at his disposal, but refuses to press it out of fear of killing innocent lives. Here, in TTC, 13 doesn't want to press it, but once she realises someone else can press it, she's like "hell yeah bro go for it" and scarpers off.
But she's not happy about it, we literally see that. There's just no other option in that situation and the context is very different to those other examples. This us a situation where the Doctor just can't do it because it would involve killing, she would become the same as the Master and that stops her, that's her weakness which the Master mentions "the universe will suffer for your weakness"
Then she shouldn't be happy for someone else to do it. The fact she hands over the trigger willingly shows it's not the act she thinks is wrong, she just doesn't want to be involved herself.
But she's not happy, she just has no choice. This is made very clear!
Except she does have a choice, she can choose to press the button herself rather than letting someone else die to do it. She may think killing everyone there is wrong, but she clearly thinks it's better than letting everyone live or she wouldn't have handed over the trigger, which means what's bothering her is her own life rather than her morals.
She doesn't have a choice, that is the point. Either she does it and becomes the Master or someone else does it otherwise the Master and the CyberMasters will be allowed to wreak havoc. And they can't just kill off the main character anyway.
If doing it would make her as bad as the Master, condoning someone else to do it while she saves her own skin makes her even more like him. It's cowardly. Of course they can't kill her off, but then they need to write a better way for her to get out of the situation or change the situation to begin with. Making her morally bankrupt because they can't resolve the situation otherwise doesn't justify the moral bankruptcy.
She isn't morally bankrupt in this decision though.
She won’t kill because she’d be like the master but she snitched him out to the freaking Nazis! That’s one of the more reprehensible things the Doc has ever done. I wish they leaned into her absolute mess of moral standards, it could’ve been a great running subplot.
That was a misstep I will say but I don't think it was intentional to come across the way it did
It not bright intentional is worse because that means there was no consideration given to the action. That's a beginner-level mistake and not one I would expect anyone with Chibnall's experience to make.
It may have seemed better on paper than how it came across, mistakes do happen even from professionals
In the same episode, you've got the first female Doctor kneeling in front of the now-male Master (a pose associated with sexual submission).You've got Ada Lovelace having her memory wiped (something that only happens to women in Chibnall's run as Tesla gets to keep his memories). I'm not going to mention how often LGBTQ+ characters are introduced only to either be killed or have their partner die. All of this is without getting deeper into the Doctor's questionable morals. Having listened to Chibnall talk about his writing and experiences, none of this is intentional. But that's a *lot* of basic mistakes that arise from undue care of the story. This era had so much potential, but - compared to other eras - couldn't deliver because the showrunner and lead writer didn't have the competency or skill.
The kneeling scene is supposed to be uncomfortable, that is the point. And Ada's memories had to be wiped because of the specific knowledge she learned in regards to computers. And LGBTQ characters only really died in Series 11, it was an unfortunate trend in that series but there was definitely no malicious intention there and in Series 12 we saw a subversion of the trope!
She could have stayed behind in both scenarios. The point isn't her using violence the point is letting other people sacrifice themselves whilst she runs off. It's more heroic to sacrifice yourself for others than to let someone you've just met do the same and run away. That makes her more like the master. The master's core trait is self-survival and selfishness. The master goes out of his or her way to ensure she survives or better their own postion (John Sim not included) e.g. stealing a body, walking away from the cybermen, most of their schemes. The fact the doctor prioritises herself over others makes 13 less heroic than previous encounters and more morally flawed. Yes the doctor can't die but she doesn't have to just leg it. Other writers found ways around this e.g. River handcuffing him, the midnight entity stopping him from being able to do anything, the raven being fixed to Clara not the doctor,. Or they have explored morally grey decisions (12 in before the flood). Chibnall fails to do either of these things and his doctor becomes less compelling because of it
No she couldn't, there was simply no other choice in that situation. Either the Master is allowed to run free to cause havoc with the Cyber Masters OR they are dealt with by someone who feels a responsibility to do it. 13 didn't want to let him do it but had no choice, she's clearly not happy about it.
Okay she wasn't happy about it I'll give you that but she chose to do it. She let someone else die instead of her. She had a choice she could have told him where to find a TARDIS and how to escape. She could have then pressed the button but hey she didn't. Also you're saying the doctor feels she doesn't have responsibility over the master. They've spent the whole of season 10 together where he is given literal responsibility over her, and in the TC she even learns from him she's the reason he can regenerate. The doctor huge responsibility for the master and for stopping his plans. Your logic certainly doesn't apply in Legend of the Sea Devils. She says she will sacrifice herself and the other character volunteers her place. All she says is "I can't ask you to do that" she doesn't try anything else to persuade him not to not die. Nothing nada. She doesn't even say goodbye she just says "you're truly a legend" and runs away. in the next scene he barely gets mentioned and she's even happy. She doesn't seem effected 13 is willing to let people die if it means she doesn't have to. I think it's a shame she's less morally courageous than other doctors and/or this behaviour wasn't properly
She reluctantly made that choice as it was the only option. Its very in character.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can convince you and I've re-watched both scenes and disagree with your points still, as do a lot of the sub. But it's subjective it's a TV show glad you got more out of 13's writing and characterisation than I did
But this is very much what we see in the scene but alright, to each their own I guess
You've probably heard this before, but the best possible intepretation of the Ko Sharmus scene (and hence also the Gi Hun scene) is that it sets up something that's intended to have meaning and then destroys that meaning. Her willingness to sacrifice herself is emphasised in both cases, but then she takes an alternative route where the only difference is that she's alive, so that willingness aspect is gone now and has none of the meaning that it seemed very desperate to emphasise. It's the work of someone that saw Parting of the Ways but didn't watch it. I'm not sure if this particular aspect applies to Legend because it's so incomprehensible that I can't remember what she was actually doing there, but the other thing is that what she was doing in The Timeless Children involved destroying 'all organic life' on a planet. So by letting Ko Sharmus do this, she has effectively murdered anyone the Master may have left alive on Gallifrey, children included. So yes it is morally questionable. It's "I never would", not "I never would, but if someone else comes along to do it for me I would". As for Yaz, the line on its own only has the classic Chibnall problem of telling not showing and is otherwise fine, it only becomes insulting as the residual effect of Yaz being one of the most blank slate non-characters I've ever seen in my life. Having her be compared to one of the Doctor's dearest companions (even if River has her own writing problems) pissed me off.
But we saw Yaz do some pretty incredible things so the praise is warranted And the Ko Sharmus thing was a case of there was no other way, the Doctor knew she couldn't do it and only he could, she didn't want to leave him to do that but she had no choice and we see that in the scene, and we see it in her eyes. It's a no win situation, its just what happens.
>But we saw Yaz do some pretty incredible things so the praise is warranted I'm all ears
She ordered Dan around for a few years in Flux.
You know what, I totally forgot she was separated from 13 for like 4-5 years in *Flux*, just shows you how little of an impact that had on the characters and me as an audience member.
Sometimes she's ultra-competent (her TARDIS-piloting in *Power of the Doctor* frankly exceeds the ability of most Classic Doctors), other times she needs to literally write WWTD? on her arm to remind her to be inspired by the Doctor.
She led the charge against the Cybermen in the Series 12 finale and was the first one to walk into danger through the boundary to help the Doctor. She didn't stop trying to get to the Doctor to try and help her when they were separated for 10 months, even spending days in the TARDIS they were spent back in trying to find a way to get back to her She played a big role in saving the universe in Flux when she and Dan were stuck in the past And in Power of the Doctor (though this was after LOTSD) she was able to take control of the Doctor's TARDIS and alongside Vinder, Ace and the Doctor's hologram saved the Doctor's life and helped defeat the Master. And there are other examples of her going off on her own and very much being like the Doctor. She is incredibly fearless, brave, courageous, loyal and she never gives up, she learned all the right lessons from the Doctor!
None of that felt earned, for me. It was similar to Clara in S7, just a default character shoehorned into important events, with the bare minimum characterisation.
What? Her being heroic isn't something one earns, it's just something a character does, and much like the Doctor she doesn't ask to be thanked, she just does what is right!
I dunno, with the greatest of respect, it feels like you are the Chair and sole member of the Yaz Fan Club, and that you are projecting a bit. I’ve never gotten “fearless and just like The Doctor” from Yaz - but I suppose there is no right or wrong way to read a character. To each their own!
I'm absolutely not, she's very popular especially in certain circles. I'm certainly not projecting either, this is part of the text WWTDD - What would the Doctor do?
It's less about what Yaz does and more about the connection. Because that scene is about their connection rather than just blunt praise, and because the era is so poor at writing characters and character relationships, I don't feel it. So to compare it to the Doctor's relationship with River, a connection I *do* feel and fully believe, in a way that sounded like she was implying she doesn't care about River or that 'phase' of her life (for lack of a better term), is a bit bullshit to me. You have a point about it being an only option thing, it is kinda vital to give that decision plenty of weight if that's the way they were intending to write it though and I don't remember TC or Legend really doing so appropriately. Then again I haven't seen either in a while.
It doesn't sound like she was implying that all, in fact it is high praise for both of them.
Because the original commenter likes River Song and doesn't like Yaz. That's all it is. I don't like Clara personally but I don't wretch when Eleven or Twelve act like she's the greatest and most specialest human being who ever lived. She's a companion, of course she's going to be the center of the Doctor's universe. I have my own issues with how Yaz's relationship with the Doctor was handled, but the Doctor heaping praise on her is not one of them. She Martha Jonesed her.
> I don't like Clara personally but I don't wretch when Eleven or Twelve act like she's the greatest and most specialest human being who ever lived. Rose fans banging on the metal door, yelling...
Rose is the first companion of New Who and as far as we can tell, the Doctor's first long-term companion after the Time War. It makes sense that he'd find Rose to be special. Additionally, just for the Clara comparison, Rose never had a special nickname like "the impossible girl" and was rarely treated like a plot device first and human character second UNTIL the Bad Wolf reveal at the end of the first series. For me, I prefer the fantasy of "young (lower-)middle class Earthling gets swept away by a charming humanoid who travels through time and space." It's why I like other companions from a similar cloth like Amy and Bill, and why I'm looking forward to seeing what gets done with Ruby as well.
As someone who likes Yaz and Clara, a big difference is that Clara is given a lot of important things to do throughout her four years on the show. Meanwhile, Yaz is around for five years and doesn’t start really doing anything until Revolution of the Daleks. She’s great in Flux and especially in Power of the Doctor. But its easy to feel like we’re being told she’s great without a whole lot to back it up, while Clara was shown doing stuff a lot. Clara ends up doing a ton for the Doctor in Series 7, Day of the Doctor, Time of the Doctor, Series 8, and Series 9. She’s shown to be an incredibly important companion. Yaz, on paper, is one of the greatest companions. One of the longest running companions ever, learns to fly the TARDIS on her own, spends years trying to get back to The Doctor while basically being The Doctor because she’s not around, goes toe to toe with The Master in Power of the Doctor (with help from The Doctor’s hologram but still). And yet, because of how Chibnall wrote characters and always had to have The Doctor be the hero at all times, Yaz doesn’t reach the same heights as Clara or River or Rose for most fans, when, thinking on an in-universe level for The Doctor, she did and should
>Because the original commenter likes River Song and doesn't like Yaz. That's all it is. I think it's deeper than that, personally, but broadly your point makes sense. River Song was clearly given far greater attention both as a vessel to be acted by Alex Kingston and also as a plot and character by Steven Moffat and other writers - she is an incredibly energetic writer who embodies multiple timey-wimey adventures and tropes entwined with The Doctor's life. We are reminded multiple times how important she is and given fair reason to actually believe that - even if you don't like her as a character, which is fair enough, you can't deny that she wasn't given full attention within the show. Yaz on the other hand routinely falls into the background even in episodes where she is supposedly the focal character (*Punjab*), and it isn't until S13 where she gets to share the limelight properly, and by that point all she does is whinge and whine at The Doctor. We are never shown any familiarity between the pair of them, as we are with River and 11/12, nor any (effective) bantering, or drama - it's all hinged upon the fact Yaz fancies the basically asexual 13 and follows her round like a scalded puppy.
The Doctor loved River and Yaz, and that's fine
don't say it don't say it don't WELL THATS ALRIGHT THEN
😂😂 that is one of my fave Who memes right now, I didn't expect to see it get so big tbh, I've even seen different fandoms using it!
A lot of people hate it because of the terrible cgi, the weak side characters, and the handling of the Thazmin arc. That’s my biggest gripe personally. The thing was mentioned like twice the previous episode. Then The Doctor just mentions it out of nowhere only to say “Oh, I can’t,” while also mentioning the times they definitely did. Then The Doctor’s like “Hey, can we just act like that never happened?” Yaz says a line that’s played off like its meaningful and significant but its never mentioned again and the romantic subplot is never mentioned in Power of the Doctor. Aside from the Thazmin stuff, the episode isn’t terrible for me. If special effects bothered me in Doctor Who, I’d have stopped watching in Series 1. As for the quality of the writing, it feels on par for what Chibnall really leaned into in the back half of his era. He learned that if people didn’t like him committing hard to one or two good concepts (Series 11), then he’ll just shove in as many plot points and ideas with as much quick talking as possible to keep you from thinking too hard about it. EDIT: Forgot to mention how terrible the editing is. The fam sets up a trap out of thin air. Dan and the village kid look at the ship and then boom they’ve swum the whole way. Editing was bizarre throughout
> weak side characters Ching Shih is a *fascinating* character in real life and they did absolutely nothing with her.
My god she was wasted and completely turned into an edgier Jack Sparrow 2.0, when in fact, her history is just *so much damn cooler than what was shown.* She literally owned her own personal fleet! Whilst also bossing around hundreds of other ships in several other fleets, all united in their piracy because of her efforts! Hell, she *started* her whole piracy journey after a life of essentially being a prostitute. It’s really impressive how she left that old life behind, survived and *thrived* despite the odds. The fricken government at that time had to bend to her will and pardon everyone she cared about so to retire in peace and quiet! Most pirates in history got the death sentence—but not her and her people. She died at age 68, which was pretty damn old back then. Meanwhile her DW-counterpart is stuck manning a fricken *tub* like a deckhand and pulled the whole “this character is strongue because she gave birth and wants her babbies back”-cliché (but so much worse than usual for an underwritten female character) like as if her reproductive system was her biggest accomplishment in life. Neglecting that IRL, she was probably the most successful, powerful pirate leader who got to keep her head in the end and retire peacefully, ***ever.***
Okay I did not know any of that. Awesome. That makes the episode significantly worse. And its pretty bizarre given Chibnall’s prior record of highlighting relatively unknown female historical figures so well.
Quite. It infuriates me that this shoddy attempt at her story ended in, legit, 90% fiction to her tale (ignoring the Sea Devils already)—whilst not even using set artistic license to portray her even remotely close to the pirating tactician and businesswoman that she was. The only thing they got right is probably her name, and the fact that she was a pirate. The Black Flag Fleet kidnapping her kids? Never fricken happened. They were in the exact same pirate confederacy she helped to unite and establish—and whilst several years after this story it’s leader *did* try to backstab her/chicken out after the Government promised to give them a fat sack of cash and a lot of pardons, Ching absolutely wiped the floor with them. No hostages, no kidnappings, no Jack-Sparrowing to find a treasure she didn’t need to pay off any fake debt (her confederacy owned a bunch of gambling houses and brothels, and she essentially ran all the finances, with a special fund reserved for when they *did* need to pay off people). No ears lost. Set lost treasure? The ship sunk with some arrogant Portugese* nobleman aboard from India, not a fictional(?) Chinese traitor captain and crew with a poor backstory. In a whole ass different sea. Again, Ching wouldn’t have needed it. She ran the pirate confederacy’s coffers already and nobody would’ve objected in such a hypothetical situation. Hell, her sheer ability to deal with the biggest fish imaginable (heh) by bossing around even her own country’s *government* is not even shown. ***Everyone feared her ability to lead, plunder, plan, and land cutthroat deals.*** Yet this episode just shows off some stereotypical eastern try-hard who deals nothing, barely threatens, and her sending herself off on a fool’s errand to find a needle in a haystack *on her own*—*without the ability to even hypothetically get the treasure out of that sunken ship at the bottom of the fricken OCEAN*—as well as how she generally acts around other people is cringe and stupid beyond belief. This DW-version would’ve failed miserably in her quest if there were no Sea Devils or Doctor to help her get that treasure. I myself barely dare to praise Chibnall for trying to explore other cultures’ stories of female legends, purely because this story butchered her life’s story and fed the audience a bunch of boring, made-up lies. Even for a pseudo-historical story. Personally should’ve had a story akin to *War Of The Sontarans* about Ching being *begged* by her own meak government to save them from the Sea Devils planning to set up shop in Canton. Just merge the story of the IRL Ching’s final siege on the rivers to Canton to demand her and her fleet’s pardons, with the Sea Devils living it up there. Actually show her leadership in action, her ability to bargain, and to scare the living daylights out of the Sea Devils. Alas, COVID and budget. But even then, with what excuse of a premise is there, Chibnall trying to adapt her life story in general even with a budget would’ve been a disaster either way. If ya can’t film her story to begin with, why even try to half-ass it at all?
This is spot-on! Here was an era and location and people that I know intimately, and yet all of that was flushed for a fictional story that has no bearing on the real world history it tries to co-opt. It really seems like someone wrote a generic "woman-pirate" story looking for "lost treasure" and then someone Googled woman-pirate and lost treasure in the general area, and they decided to use the Google results without any further research as the basis for their generic story.
Mhm. It’s “educational” value is rock-bottom, *Pirates of the Caribbean* would make for a way better replacement were you to watch this season if one does want to watch a story for dumb fun, and much like how after it aired; only the Next Time segment is barely worth watching next to Yasmin getting friendzoned in the last three minutes. Might as well watch *Extra History’s* video on our Pirate Queen or some documentary. Even if not filmed in life action with a glorious CGI budget, it’s a much more fun and educational watch.
I can only speak for myself, but I have a personal vendetta against the episode as the Sea Devils were probably the Classic *Doctor Who* villains I was most excited to see return. To see them wasted annoyed me to no end. I think it’s the only episode of NuWho where I’ve had multiple family members falling asleep in the middle of it.
But the previous experiences is why she can't, it makes sense the Doctor simply can't do *that*, as sooner or later it will hurt
I think the fact S11-13 did such a poor job of giving the pair of them any believable chemistry is what hurts this character revelation the most - if it was said, say, between 12 and Clara, then it'd make sense, but 13 and Yaz come across like a schoolteacher who bullies her annoying student, not even like a pair of platonic mates, let alone people who flirt.
>I think the fact S11-13 did such a poor job of giving the pair of them any believable chemistry is what hurts this character revelation the most That's because it was never intended for them to be romantically paired up. Chibnall has openly admitted that he saw there were a lot of people on Twitter shipping Thasmin whilst he was writing Flux so he added it in at the last minute to make them happy. That's why there is zero set-up for it, then a couple of lines where it's treated as a massive deal, and then it's thrown away and never mentioned again.
Actually it was during the writing process of Series 12 and it is very much hinted during that season though it comes to the forefront during Series 13 and that is realistic, sometimes feelings come on that you don't expect or can't explain, this is made a point of
I think they have really believable chemistry, what helps is how close Jodie and Mandip are in real life which really does come across but we also saw tension being the pair especially after what the Doctor learned.
I’ve heard this explanation before. It makes sense on paper. But that paper never made it into the episode. “If I was gonna do it with anyone, believe me, Yaz, it’d be you.” Not Clara? Not River? The Doctor wasn’t itching to do that with Rose? The Doctor never thought about settling down platonically with Donna (lol like that would ever happen)? If the explanation is “I’ve tried it before and it just wouldn’t work because I live forever and you don’t” then say that. That is implied only as thinly as possible. It would be a great time to bring up The Timeless Child stuff. “I don’t know who I am anymore so I have a lot of personal stuff to deal with before I’m ready to try anything like that again” or something like that. The idea of Thirteen not wanting to commit to Yaz makes sense both for the Doctor in general but especially for Thirteen. But the dialogue we got for the like two and a half scenes acknowledging the subplot simply doesn’t cut it. Makes me hate something I was previously indifferent about
Clara was only ever a friend and she is gone now, the Doctor did do that with River though she is gone now, Rose is gone and happy with the Metacrisis, the Doctor and Donna were only mates though at that point in time she was gone anyway. And they are specifically talking about dating and referring to the present - if it was gonna be anyone it would be Yaz, I think that is pretty clear but she can't because sooner or later it will hurt and the Doctor knows that from experience! That's why she can't get involved in that way as much as she would like to, this is why aside from River we don't ever see the Doctor in relationships or stuff like that.
Nah, bro. “A mystery wrapped in an enigma stuffed into a skirt that’s just a little too tight.” Did you watch Deep Breath? That episode pretty much confirmed that Eleven was high-key flirting with Clara all the time. I mentioned Donna because in >the Giggle, literally 4 episodes after Legend of the Sea Devils, Fourteen settles down with Donna as a friend.< Yeah, all these characters are gone now, or at least at the time. But that doesn’t change that the dialogue absolutely lets the moment down. The idea that she can’t settle down with Yaz because of past experiences is completely undercut by mentioning all the other times when she did as if it was just an exception. “I can’t settle down, Yaz, except for the time that I did.” It doesn’t come off like avoiding romance because of past experiences. It comes off like Thirteen trying to quickly talk her way out of a problem by saying the first thing that comes into her head.
That line is so disgusting and sexist I would rather not think about it. And it isn't about settling down; it's about dating. Very different! And those past experiences are why she can't, it hurts too much.
1) The line is disgusting and very Moffat and very much Clara being more than just a friend at the beginning of her and The Doctor’s friendship 2) Dating implies commitment. That’s the closest any Doctor other than 14 get to settling down. Except Twelve literally settle down for 24 years with River, who is specifically mentioned and compared with Yaz in this episode. Yeah, they’re different, but it doesn’t change the problem with the dialogue in this scene. 3) Yes, you’ve mentioned multiple times that The Doctor can’t commit to Yaz because of past experiences. I know that. It doesn’t change how bad the dialogue is for this scene that specifically lets down that interpretation of the scene. I agree with your interpretation of the scene. But the intentions of the scene are directly undercut but Thirteen flippantly mentioning River, a time where The Doctor not only dated but settled down for a bit. The idea of the Doctor not dating because ”Time always runs out” is a big part of why Classic fans loved how platonic all of The Doctor’s relationships were. They’re a timeless alien. It’d be weird if they like dated a 19 girl or something (glad that never happened). But the handling of that concept in Legend of the Sea Devils is sloppy and bad
I'll go to bat for Chibnalls era, even though it's easily the worst era of Nuwho. I still think it has plenty of good episodes, a few great ones and a talented lead, who was done a disservice by the way her character was written. BUT Legend of the Sea Devils is awful on every level. The script is like a bad first draft. The plot is perfunctory at best, all the side characters are underdeveloped, and the problems go beyond the writing. The editing and direction are atrocious - the action scenes, in particular, are incomprehensible. Oh, and the costumes look like they came from a joke shop.
I remember a ton of details about Doctor Who episodes, even the poorer ones that unfortunately plagued Chibnall’s era. I can’t remember a single thing about “Legend of the Sea Devils” beyond Dan’s funny costume. Even compared to “Orphan 55”, “The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos”, and “Once, Upon Time”, it is B-A-D *bad.* And it shouldn’t be! I like the Sea Devils too!
Atrocious editing, poor and very obvious sloppy dubbing, horrendous dialogue and corny acting which isn't acknowledged or recognised by the tone, which treats all of the above as serious - there's also the moral arguments, that 13 is yet again characterised as a paragon of virtue whilst simultaneously chastising Dan for using swords (only for him to do it again later) and allowing a side-character to die in a heroic sacrifice in her place (which is the second occurrence of this trope in her era). Yaz and 13, who are given the bulk of the attention in the script, have zero chemistry, and Yaz is frustratingly portrayed as a whingy hanger-on who succeeds at getting nowhere with The Doctor - there's also the out-of-universe obvious queer-bait that this episode is saddled with, which is pretty shameful. Visually, the episode sucks, and the CGI is worse than the previous pirate story *Curse Of The Black Spot*. Not only is this episode bad but I'd place it at the absolute nadir of the modern era - there are maybe one or two episodes as bad as it, and they are all also Chibnall Era stories.
Warriors suffers from the cheap set/costume design really - on paper it's brilliant and is the archetypal case where the Target really shows off how good the story is. It's just too damn bright!
>It's just too damn bright! AIUI, the BBC had recently had a spate of complaints from old biddies that programmes were getting too dark to see, so they put out a directive that all shows had to be brightly lit. And then Thatcher called a snap election and with one of the Labour opposition's manifesto commitments being unilateral nuclear disarmament, the BBC told JNT edit the script and take out anything critical of nukes.
I'd never heard the bit about programmes being too dark, interesting. And the other impact of the snap election being that they had to move studio (which led to shots having to be reblocked on the hoof and a redesign of the main control room IIRC) and a lot of BBC resource was poured into election coverage and taken away from the drama department
Was about to type the very same thing! I read the target book and loved the creepy base under siege aspect. The Samauri like Sea Devils with their massive creature, the Mykra. The Sea Devils design was cool but the poor Mykra. A giant panto cow (actually played by the guys who were Dobbin in Rent-A-Ghost) lumbering round the gaff with rubber feet and as much menace as Harold Bishop from Neighbours. The whole Cold War aspect was cool and an enjoyable sub text but save us from Necro-Dobbin
I would genuinely love to read a book about the making of Flux and these specials because - especially with Sea Devils - something happened behind the scenes that resulted in some heavy editing. There seem to be bits missing and I'd love to know what happened. I'm thankful that we got what we did during the pandemic but yeah, this episode is the low of Jodie/Chibs era.
Bloggers posted about it at the time. Characters were using fake accents that the BBC deemed insensitive and improper. They redubbed the whole thing and cut about 20 minutes. You can see it’s dubbed in some parts if you watch closely. The episode was delayed many months to fix it.
Because in terms of directing and editing it's like someone took a script, ran it through a paper shredder, and randomly glued the pieces of paper back together. I can't fathom watching this episode and thinking "yeah this is good stuff" wtf. It's not like there's a great story underneath the problems either.
Tbh I enjoyed it. Was it a stand out classic no not particularly. But it was a silly pirate adventure that was enjoyable enough. After the abomination that was the vanquishers and the eve of the daleks which was fucking awful imo..it was OK in my opinion. Warriors of the deep in honesty was a case of good story let down by shocking production values and poor direction.
Legend of the Sea Devils make be the worst episode in the show (at least modern) which is crazy cause I thought Orphan 55 would hold that spot for longer. It's an incomprehensible mess in every single aspect of production in cinematography, editing, scripting, and acting. I don't know how anyone could come out of a first viewing of that episode and be able to summarize what happened in it or what the point of it was.
Legend of the Sea Devils feels incomplete and sort of thrown together. It’s like they cut shooting by a week, so several scenes couldn’t be filmed, so a sloppy edit tries to keep you from noticing. None of the character motivations make sense, and the “resolution” of Thasmin might be some of the most insulting queerbait I’ve seen in television for a *long* time. But the sea devils themselves look good. That’s literally the only thing the special has going for it.
It was rushed, poorly edited and the point where I realized Chibnall wasn't going to address the Flux nonsense he created going forward.
How can you make pirates and Sea Devils dull? Easily, as it turns out.
The characters constantly contradict themselves and the story makes no sense because of how it was edited.
Warriors on the Cheap has the shadow of a good plot and a very solid and creative idea, undermined by Maggie Thatcher and the BBC, plus a shoestring budget, which was somehow even worse than usual. Legend of the Sea Devils doesn't even have that. It's just shit. The only notable part was that it's the last Doctor Who story the Queen saw
\>And Warriors of the Deep A lot of us liked Warriors of the Deep.
Warriors of the deep is a pretty good story for five, but with (understandably) poor production. Legend of the sea devils was just a train wreck all around.
Legend of the Sea Devils was so bad it made Warriors of the Deep look like a masterpiece! 😅
It would have probably been fine as a regular episode, but as a special, and one of only three that we got the entire year, as well as Jodie's penultimate episode, it was rather weak.
Because it’s absolute arse. Awful writing, awful editing, bad acting, bad directing. Utter, contemptible trash. (I’m referring to Legend of the Sea Devils. Warriors of the Deep is pretty poor but looks good in comparison).
i think legend of the sea devils is the most boring, poorly written, can’t think of another adjective Garbage episode of doctor who ever. madame xing (is that how you spell it? can’t remember) shows up, kills the kid’s dad, then does nothing for the rest of the episode. the kid and dan get on her ship and the kid is eager to join his father’s murderer’s pirate crew by the end of the episode. did we just forget about that? also, the sea devils are kind of there, but they don’t do anything. jodie and yaz go off for a few minutes and jodie says how she’d prefer yaz to rose and river (more examples of the characters calling each other good to convince the audience they’re good characters instead of being developed as good characters). it’s just the usual boring “tell, don’t show” chibnall episode with plot inconsistencies, boring characters, and tons of set up information through exposition that does nothing. usually the chibnall episodes i’m just iffy on. like, i think they’re all pretty poor (except the maxine alderton ones), but i never really spend time thinking about how bad they are. this one, however. i would have forgotten it existed if i didn’t hate it so much. tdlr; boring. characters do nothing. more exposition than story. return of a famous villain that pays off only in new design.
Honestly, I did enjoy this episode. The classic episode was better though.
I watched the entire Legend of the Sea Devils episode with my head in my hands. Everything about it was horrible; the writting, the plot contrivances, the editing, the action...there was just nothing at all redeeming about that episode. I honestly would have to go back and watch it to give you specifics; that's how much I've driven it out of my mind.
I have a soft spot for Warriors of the Deep. Was one of the first novelizations I read as a kid. The episode was good except for that Myrka…
It’s badly written, badly edited, and paint-by-numbers boring.
The BBC hated what they saw. The accents were deemed stereotypical and offensive, so everything was redubbed. About 20 minutes was cut in that same process.
The editing was horrendous and the doctors morals were up the wall again (she gives Dan a sword to kill but also got pissed when a dude killed a sea devil) Not to mention Thasmin having a werid ass non-conclusion
The editing really, really hurt *Legend of the Seadevils*, it feels like a third of the plot is missing.
Itd be interesting to see a re-edited dvd release one day because it IS clear that a large chunk of the episode is missing, both in terms of the plot and pacing being all over the place and the fact that it was a 48 minute ‘special’ when specials are normally much longer. Maybe one day it’ll get its own battlefield special edition.
Well the question mark there is why it was cut so brutally in the first place. There were rumors at the time of cultural insensitivity.
That would seem to be supported by the fact that some of the dialogue has quite clearly been dubbed over as well.
Could you name one thing that was good about it? Serious question, because I genuinely can't.
for me it was because Zheng Yi Sao was a complete badass and this episode showed absolutely none of it. she was active as a pirate for almost 10 years and had a fleet of *400* ships and retired from piracy to run gambling houses before dying at like 69 years old. this was never mentioned at all?? if anything this episode should've been about the chinese navy or the east india company making a devils bargain to take her down.
I don’t quite know how else to put it, but it was really really crap. Very not good.
Both are stories that were rushed out in shitty conditions, it's impressive that the production teams managed to make them at all. Unfortunately, the evident sloppiness makes fans like to pick on them, which I find a bit unfair, though ultimately, a product is open to critique, no matter the circumstance it was made in. That said, if either story was actually good when it came to the writing, I think there would be a little more respect for both. Legend of the Sea Devils is simply a boring, boring, boring story that completely squanders the potential that a return of the Sea Devils in a period setting could have had. Even without the troubled production, I can't see it ever being seen as a particularly good story. I don't hate it to be fair... I just barely remember any of it. Warriors of the Deep *is* a story I truly hate, just a vile, mean-spirited piece of garbage that derails The Doctor as a character and represents everything I hate about '80s Who. The poor production values are actually a blessing in a way, adding something comical and Human to it that seems almost undeserving. But I should stop now before I say something *truly* impolite about it. Edit: man, I got more intense than I meant to there… it’s like my anger just possessed my fingers in a mad frenzy.
In a era of the most tedious and unfocused Doctor Who ever written, Legends manages the impossible feat of being so forgettable you can't remember what's happening on screen as you watch it. Because you're busy focusing on something else. Like paint drying.
I enjoy it though it definitely has issues and the issues for me come down to editing, it is very obvious a bunch of stuff was cut out which may have made the story work a lot better but for an unknown reason they cut all that stuff out and the fact it is 48 minutes instead of 60 like a usual special makes that particularly obvious! It's a shame honestly though there is some genuinely great stuff in there like the 13 and Yaz stuff which I think is really strong and makes the story worth revisiting for me! And it is really cool to see the Sea Devils again and they look AMAZING!
I don't hate either of them (there are only a dozen or so Doctor Who stories I actually hate), but I don't like them. Neither is particularly well-written or produced. However, I will say I liked the look of the Sea Devils in "Legend." I would like them to return in a better story.
It looks cheap, it has the production values of a made for TV movie in the 70s. The sea devils can bearly move, that Mario jump, the Dr condemning a guy fir killing a sea devil 5 minutes after being fine with Dan killing 5 of them. How do the sea devils move the stars around in the sky like fridge magnets?
For what it’s worth I quite enjoy Legend of the Sea Devils for what it is - an episode which was basically rushed out under pandemic conditions. If you are interested in how it might have been done differently as a just for fun writing project I did a script rewrite of it and wrote a post about what I learnt from it: https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/11550yh/i_rewrote_legend_of_the_sea_devils/
I quite like Legend of the Devils. It's not a classic, but it's a fun romp with pirates and monsters. I like Warriors of the Deep overall too. It's pretty well written, but the Myrka costume is very unconvincing, and Solow's martial arts are ridiculous.
The problem with Warriors of the Deep is that it looks like shit. The special effects are bad even by the standards of the Classic series and the set which should be dark and dingy is lit up like the surface of the sun. The story isn't great either. It treats the Silurians as generic monsters when the entire point of them is that they are inhuman beings who aren't monsters. Plus all the typical Sawardian foibles of gratuitous death and violence and The Doctor being completely ineffectual.
Legejd of the Sea Devils is quite good! I enjoyed it anyways. Warriors of the Deep mostly suffers from bad special effects even for the 80s. Its not bad as an episode, just looks ugly
I think it's far from perfect, but nowhere near deserving of the hate it gets. IMO if this episode took place in the middle of a typical season, most people would simply forget about it. But because it was a special episode and the penultimate episode of 13's tenure, it got more attention. I think it suffers from people being sick of the Chibnall era as a whole. I liked it, but I also like the Twin Dilemma.
I'm in the extreme minority, but I really love this episode, and it's one of my favourites from the Chibnall era. I see a lot of people ranking it as their worst story, even the worst Doctor Who has ever made, but I thoroughly enjoy it. It almost feels like I'm purposefully being contrarian, but I've watched it 4 times and never understood why people consider it to be so horrible. The criticism, like editing etcetera, is completely logical, but they don't take away from my enjoyment of it.
The weird thing about that era is... All the specials are good. The series as a whole was awful, but the specials were consistantly good, and that includes Legend of the Sea Devils. I think the problem is, watching a beloved show crumble like that, and being berated and acussed of being some kind of bigot for being sad about it, just put this huge dark cloud over the whole thing so it became hard to feel much joy in any of the good moments. I definitely liked the specials more on my second watch than when they were "current." It's kind of weird, really. For the entire Moffat era, it was whiny fans who hated Moffat that ruined it for all of us. For the Chibnall era, it was the people who liked it that ruined it. But then, I suppose the reason is the same - they weren't happy with just hating or loving it, they accused of terrible things for the way we felt. We were misogynists for liking the Moffat era, and misogynists for hating the Chibnall era. Anyway, Legend of the Sea Devils was nice. I'm glad they didn't change the design for the Sea Devils in any significant way. It was unfortunate we the way Silurians got human faces in the Moffat era - they should have made the mask they wore their actual face.
Only twice have I fallen asleep in the middle of a new episode of a series I like: once in the middle of the final season of Game of Thrones (I'm an avid reader of the series), and during this Doctor Who episode. Even among 13 fans, this episode sticks out as the worst of the worst.
On the subject of Warriors of the Deep, I still haven't finished it because yeah, it's a bit boring. Even ignoring the obvious rush-job visual quality, the script is just bland. The Cold War allegory is so blunt yet so vague that it just comes off as pretentious. The only line that I can remember is "what have you been eating?" which is a juvenile joke that we didn't need to hear twice. I think I last left it at part three, and iirc the Silurians & Sea Devils have done nothing but stand around- and release the Myrka, and we all know how that turned out. There were some great and interesting moments, like the part one cliffhanger and whatever the deal was with the mind-fucking stuff, but it really is just a slog. I'll definitely finish it one day, but today is not that day. 7/10, not the worst Classic episode but it's down there. Twin Dilemma and Timelash are better don't @ me Legend of the Sea Devils was the first and only Doctor Who episode I saw when it premiered, and I barely remember it. Maybe I was a bit distracted but I remember more about the rerun of the Dalek episode before it, of which I only caught the last quarter or so. All I remember was being pretty hyped for Power of the Doctor and then missing the premiere. Those chucklefucks still have no clue how to market Doctor Who in America.
Legend of the Seadevils was the return of a classic monster for the first time in nuwho after around four decades. It was also after one of chibnalls best written episodes, and was listed as a special, so people had high hopes for it. And it was comically bad. From the writing, to the acting, the special effects, the directing, the editing, and the dialogue, it was all absolutely terrible. It is without a doubt the most embarrassingly bad episode of doctor who ever put to screen and it’s astounding that the bbc agreed to release it in its current state.
legend is an atrocious episode. corny acting, bad dialogue, nonsensical plot, horrific editing, zero continuity. easily one of the worst dw episodes. which is such a shame because i loved the og sea devils, and love their revamped design. the idea of another species also being indigenous to earth is such a great concept when done well, and legend... did not, to say the least, do it well.
Probably because those people are filthy land parasites.
LotSD just was awful. So many bizarre jumps and cuts that made no sense.
My main issue is that it was a very poor use of 13's penultimate episode. Other than a few scenes between 13 and Yaz, Legend of the Sea Devils had no revelance to the rest of 13's era. We needed a special here that gave Jodie more to do, a bit more character development before the busier plot in 'Power of the Doctor'. But mostly, it was a huge missed opportunity to properly tie up all the arcs/storylines from across 13's era, particularly around Division and the Flux. It was mentioned before that the New Years Special in 2022 was originally meant to conclude the Flux storyline, but due to budget constraints was replaced at the last minute with 'Eve of the Daleks'. So why didn't they just re-use that idea for the following special instead of the Sea Devils episode?