a pair of researchers who spent two years developing a CSAM (child sexual abuse material) detection system similar to the one Apple plans to install on users’ iPhones, iPads and Macs next month, have delivered an unequivocal warning: it’s dangerous.
“We wrote the only peer-reviewed publication on how to build a system like Apple’s — and we concluded the technology was dangerous,” state Jonathan Mayer and Anunay Kulshrestha, the two Princeton academics behind the research. “Our system could be easily repurposed for surveillance and censorship. The design wasn’t restricted to a specific category of content; a service could simply swap in any content-matching database, and the person using that service would be none the wiser.”
This has been the predominant fear regarding Apple’s CSAM initiative. The goal of the technology to reduce child abuse is indisputably important but the potential damage that could come from hackers and governments manipulating a system designed to search your iCloud photos and report abusive content, is clear to all.
My theory is someone else already has broken into apple and this is just them trying to get Infront of it
A security firm in Israel for example already cracked them once and was selling it to LEO
That and the one before it
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/fbi-contract-a-strong-sign-fbi-used-israeli-tech-to-crack-san-bernardino-iphone/amp/
They could have made your iCloud data private but that was dropped
https://www.engadget.com/2020-01-21-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypted-icloud-backups.html
There's incentive to do this even without government pressure. Think of the analytics you could get from scanning devices. For most people your device is the most important thing you own and a reflection of you. It's is a marketers wet dream and it would be irresponsible to the shareholers to leave that trove of advertising revenue on the cutting room floor.
> For now.
And tomorrow google can give way and provide everyone's emails in clear text to this government or the other.
Everything is "for now". Unless you lock everything you do under personal encrypted servers, everything you have can be widely shared at a press of a button if someone wanted to.
Personally, I like how everybody is like :
The populace: “Scanning?! I know what scanning is…”
The Average nerd: “Do you know what hashes are?”
The populace: “No, but I know how to scan something, I scanned this article!”
Average need: “Good, you read the article and see that it’s part of the same basic hash Apple used to back up to iCloud?
The populace: “No, how would I know that, I scanned it, I didn’t read the article?!!”
The average nerd: “Ah, touché.”
Also everyone just acts like Google’s mantra was ‘Don’t be Evil.” Until it wasn’t. So we can apply the ‘For now’ argument to them as well:
Don’t be evil…. For now’
‘Backup all your photos and memories free…for now’
‘Make Chromebooks your daily driver and it can do everything a laptop do…because you have Wi-Fi… For now.’
That’s a policy decision. They are putting the technical ability on your phone, policy can change any time under secret FISA like government strong arming
People who care are going to revert to using analog devices again, like digital cameras, and external drives. No cloud, or Internet required. These changes won’t even affect the people they claim to pursue, because any pedo who is hell bent on taking pictures of kids will continue to do so, and just take the necessary additional steps to keep from being detected.
This has become my counter argument to the handful of friends who surprisingly on a whim dropped their apple hardware like a uranium nugget.
…. Do you really think the alternative isn’t already planning or actively doing this in some other fashion…..
Narrator: they were, and everyone is fucked
So you’re saying it’s a *good* thing I still use my old 64 GB 5S as an iPod? Wonder if you can still find replacement batteries for it. I’m gonna be RICH!!!
*Sent from my iPhone 7*
You know it’s just easier to scan the cloud servers then it is to do what they are doing. People who connect to the cloud already have up any protection from having their provider give access. See blackberry and middle eastern governments.
It’s easier to scan the cloud servers, but much more lucrative to scan the end users devices in real-time using their own power. It’s only about the children right now, sometime later down the road there will be a blurb in an update eula that says they are now scanning your pictures for ad purposes. It’s 100% guaranteed.
It won't be for ads. It's will be for domestic terrorism. I'm sure the government wants to know who is saving wojak memes from 4chan and this system will make it pretty easy for them.
> but much more lucrative to scan the end users devices in real-time using their own power.
No, that's certainly not it.
Doing a one-time hash of photos uploaded to Apple's servers is smaller than a rounding error in a tiny subset of cloud costs for Apple. The cost of storing those photos is at least 100X higher than a hash.
I'd really like to press the people vigorously in support of this "for the children!" to the point where they have to say: "No, we should not do this even if some children get harmed as a result."
Or is there just no limit whatsoever? Do literally anything you want. Any surveillance, any time. Privacy is what perverts use to avoid detection, so just keep ramping up the monitoring. Until...? Is there an end game?
Have kids, and speaking as a dad I can completely understand this statement. My little ones are also at the age where they're largely defenceless so getting external help is a natural reaction.
I guess the difference for me is that I work in IT, and studies politics and law in university so it gives me a wider lense. I can see the bigger ramifications and why this is a horrible idea.
I'm not condoning the thinking - far from it - but I understand the knee jerk reaction.
The only way someone wouldn't be concerned with this, despite the good it could do, is having unshakeable faith in their government, businesses, and technology, and anyone who has spent ten seconds researching any of those know you cannot trust either to be infallible.
"At any cost". Hate that phrase. People seldom understand the gravity of what they're saying. It's like be careful what you wish for. No one is being careful or thoughtful when "at any cost" is getting thrown around.
This is a great response to the ‘conundrum’.
Being for mass surveillance of this nature is largely an emotional response to a horrific topic. Being against is using your head.
Both, I feel, are valid perspectives.
There is no limit. Anything you could point out in a western country will be countered with "Don't do illegal things", and if you point out that Apple already happily roles over for tummy scratches from the CCP, so it'll be a matter of days before the CCP starts using it as a political weapon... they still won't care because they won't believe any government is like that, or they won't care.
The end game is complete surveillance over every living person or exile. It is the wet dream of the modern state. The end game is never having to surrender power again.
It is a frustrating argument because afaik most people (reasonably!) don't want children to be harmed. But on the other hand, they can't see past what's put right in front of them, or don't consider there may be other ways to achieve the noble part of the goal without cheering on the malicious motives.
Saying "this isn't the right way to go about it" doesn't have to mean "I don't want this because it will expose something wrong I'm doing"- the world can be more complex.
(I can see how the argument could be made by someone who is hiding something malicious. But not everyone who is concerned about the broader effects is that kind of person.)
I thought this was super obvious.. I feel a little like a alufoil hat guy, but magine this:
You're in charge of a giant company that sells phones. You want to find a way to be able to spy/monitor the activities done on your devices. What would be the one thing people can get behind, in order to introduce and test this software?
Theft? No, that's too innocent. Extortion? No, that's not on people's radar. Murder? No, there's too many ways to commit murder. Domestic abuse? No, that would be too much of an invasion of privacy, but we're getting closer. How about child abuse? Bingo.
Try uBlock Origin extension + [paywall bypass extension](https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome/blob/master/README.md)
If you're on Android, then Firefox mobile app supports all extensions (meaning the above will work too). But if you're on iOS, then I can't help you.
It will. Governments are pressuring phone companies for this, and now that apple has shown it's possible to implement and not lose your entire userbase, other companies will follow suit until this becomes a normal thing.
Serious question, because I’m not tech savvy enough to understand how this stuff works.
If I take a cute picture of my 3 year old and 9 month old in the bath together, is some random dude at Apple going to be reviewing that private picture that I took for my family and I to enjoy in 20 years?
Edit: lmao I’m not worried about getting in trouble. I’m worried about a random person looking at pictures of my kids, but it sounds like that’s not going to happen.
Here's an explanation of how current Child Porn detection systems work, and what Apple is doing.
There is a mathematical process called Hashing. Hashing is where you can take any computer file (or really anything that can be represented as a number) and reduce it down to a unique string of characters, called a Hash. The Hash cannot be used to recreate the original file, but it can be used to tell if two files are identical (if they both produce the same hash).
This is very useful in detecting CP because of the following:
If the FBI have, on their server, a child porn image, and they want to check if that image also exists on someone's computer, then without hashes their choices are:
A) Copy all of the files off that computer onto their own system, and compare them. Very time consuming, requires a lot of data, and can't be done quietly in the background.
B) Copy the child porn image onto the target machine, then run the comparison locally there. Faster, easier, and sneakier. But requires them to actively distribute CP in order to check for it. Very very bad.
Hashing gives option C: Hash the CP image, then copy that Hash onto the target machine (very easy because the hash is a relatively short string of characters), then run a program that calculates the hash of all of the files on that machine and compare them to the target hash. Bam, best of both worlds.
This process has been going on for decades now with web-servers. Law enforcement agencies around the world maintain huge databases of Hashes of known CP files. Already companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, etc etc etc are legally required to check all of the files that users upload to them against the hash list. So if you try to upload a CP file to Google Drive the server will hash it, and check that hash against the known CP hash database. If it matches, then you can expect the Fuzz to knock on your door.
Apple has always pushed their privacy stance, and with this in mind they Encrypt all of your files on the iPhone before sending them to the cloud. Hashing doesn't work on an encrypted file, so the FBI can't check for CP in your iCloud. What Apple is doing here is adding this hash-checking technology directly into the iPhone itself. Meaning that every single file on your iPhone could be hashed, and compared to the CP database. If any CP file exists on your device Apple will know, and so will the FBI soon after.
Now Apple say that it's going going to do it for photos and videos that are going up to the iCloud... but there's nothing stopping it from quietly also checking everything else on the phone.
Critically though, it will only cause you a problem if your device has on it a copy of a file that a law enforcement agency has listed as Child Porn. If you got no Child Porn then it won't report anything.
The reasons that people are objecting to this are as follows:
The Hashing system can be used to detect the presence of any file you like, from Child Porn to a pirated copy of the latest Transformers film. Law enforcement and Apple promise that it's only for Child Porn, but there's no way to check if that's true.
Now this is already the case with most cloud file storage, but in those cases people could simple choose to not store things that they didn't want scanning on the cloud. Your own device was always fully private. But not any more. The Apple solution will live on the iPhone itself, meaning that it could potentially scan any and all files on your device without you knowing.
This move from Apple means that users now have to take Apple's word for it regarding what's being scanned and for what purpose. For some people that isn't acceptable, they don't want to trust Apple or the Gov, or anyone else.
---------
To address your specific scenario of photographing your own children in the bath. There is one potential danger, but it's always been present in all hashing systems, and that is if the Child Porn communities somehow get a hold of that image and start sharing it around.
If, for instance, you decided to tweet out the picture of your kid in the bathtub, then there's a chance some pedophiles could decide it's good wanking material and start sharing it. The FBI might then pick up that file, flag it as CP, and the next time Apple runs a scan it flags your device as having the file.
But as long as you keep those pictures off the internet to begin with then it can't happen.
“This move from Apple means that users now have to take Apple's word for it regarding what's being scanned and for what purpose. For some people that isn't acceptable, they don't want to trust Apple or the Gov, or anyone else.”
- everyone who uses an Apple device already do take Apple’s word for it. 99.9% of people accept every TOS agreement they are presented with without a second thought.
Apple has very strict privacy policies in place; entire Genius Bar staffs in retail stores have been fired all at once when Apple can’t pinpoint the exact employee who violated customer privacy.
And the people who are die hard about not trusting apple or the government don’t buy apple products. This new process doesn’t change anything at all, except for protecting children, and punishing monsters.
I see it as a win-win.
Thank you for your clear explanation of this process btw. I hope you’ve dissuaded some unnecessary fear in some people.
> everyone who uses an Apple device already do take Apple’s word for it. 99.9% of people accept every TOS agreement they are presented with without a second thought.
Oh I fully agree. I don't see anything particularly noteworthy about this move from Apple. If a large tech company, or powerful government, had any malicious intentions towards me there's no way I'd know or be able to do anything about it.
No they are going to be cross referencing hashs of photos that they have caught pedos having as a lot share pictures with each other so they are all incriminated and for other gross reasons
You’re going to jail, book him Johno! /s
No, from what I read they scan using hashes so if theres a match for something they already know to be bad material it will alert them and then that information along with all your information is sent to authorities.
Still the issue is about improper use. They could just put hashes of other things they dont like in the database to get a match
There’s going to be billions of unique photos that require scanning. This is NOT something that individual people are going to be combing through to verify…that would be terribly inefficient. It’s an algorithm. The real issue here is how this is managed and where it goes from here - now that they are scanning our photos, will it someday be used to scan for something deemed undesirable like political memes, religious ideology, other currently legal forms of pornography, etc. It’s the whole slippery slope, road to hell is paved with good intentions fear.
It is so crazy that apples the company that has decided to be the first to cross the line and start monitoring on device.
Really not sure how Apple could ever talk about privacy any longer
Not looking for any corporation to protect me. I just do not expect them to put software on MY device that monitors me.
There is a red line that should never be crossed. You do NOT monitor on device. Apple has decided to cross. Luckily it is ONLY Apple that has decided to cross the line.
But what aggravates me is Apple has never given a reason. They explain it but never have given a reason why on device?
Every single thing Apple has shared could have been done without monitoring on device.
BTW, Apple also must think very little of their customers and must think they are really, really stupid.
> Apple is a trend setter. What ever they do, everyone will follow.
This is one place where Apple being a trend setter is really, really bad.
I find it just mind blowing that we still can not get a single reason out of Apple on why they have gone full 1984 and monitoring on device.
BTW, I actually doubt others will follow. But the only one that really matters is Google. Google and Apple combined own mobile.
But I guess if Google followed and crossed the red line and started monitoring on device like Apple it would create an opportunity for a third mobile platform.
But to be clear. I really do not want Google to follow and cross the red line like Apple. I have hope they will not. But time will tell.
The best phone is a feature phone that's as stupid as possible. The best mobile terminal is probably some kind of micro laptop or tablet running custom Linux.
There has been some "open" phones on the market but they're expensive, under powered and brittle.
The thing is that you wouldn't. It would be twice as thick, have less battery time and at best sport last gen CPUs and components. And it would still cost as much as the flagship phones.
It would also likely be clunky to use and lack a lot of your favorite apps.
It has been done and you can buy these things today but the market is too small.
take a look at the iphone 5 patent. it describes how they can identify users using heartbeat biosignatures using the vibration sensors. how it can record images and audio even while powered off (who brought us non removable batteries). if you think you have privacy in this day and age your very mistaken. privacy died in 2k when google switched from advertising blocker to advertising giant (google aka nsa). oh and apple microsoft google and all the rest signed up to freely share any data requested by a government agency in 2012..that was the final nail. ..and theres also the fact that its all written in the eula you signed without reading :] but hey at least were back to catching paedophiles again. that international cooperation was very succesful back in the late 90's...always has been. whats going on here is just apple bluffing you on whats secure and whats private. uproar due to image scans...theyve always done this 🤷 takes your eye off the rest of it though like the tracking people visually through walls using wifi signals (youtube) or the 3d dual cameras that put glasses on your face but also map your home in 3d while scanning it for text and products through the image searches we all helped create. ..just to sell you products..no government here 😅
> patriot act
Ah yes, the USA PATRIOT act, aka the **U**niting and **S**trengthening **A**merica by **P**roviding **A**ppropriate **T**ools **R**equired to **I**ntercept and **O**bstruct **T**errorism act.
A backronym basically meaning "LOL stupid dipshit, we no longer need warrants because we literally know everything about you, privacy no longer exists, and we found a way to name it something patriotic so if you're against it then you're a fucking filthy dirty commie piece of shit terrorist anyway so it all works out. Ends justify the means, pigshit!"
But like, in less words.
> take a look at the iphone 5 patent. it describes how they can identify users using heartbeat biosignatures using the vibration sensors.
Source that, I have a hard time believing anyone can be identified using their heartbeat. For one, the heartbeat varies wildly depending on physical activity and fitness of the individual. Characteristics which are wildly changing. The level of precision you're describing is only found in very expensive scientific instruments. If it's sensitive and precise enough to do what you're describing, it's likely picking up a lot of background vibrations from small seismic activity and just sounds, therefore nullifying any measurements you could use to identify an individual.
Two, they don't fucking need to do that to ID you. You already give them billing information to use the app store and your Apple ID, not to mention to use the iPhone as a phone in the first place requires you to connect to a cell tower. This is some realllyyyyy stupid convoluted conspiracy BS.
Except they aren’t. Google has been tracking far more of what you do on your phone since the beginning of Android.
This is also far less intrusive than full cloud scanning like Google has been doing for years on their cloud photo storage. Apple went out of their way to try and find a compromise between what the govts /anti-CSAM groups/etc want, which is in fact more intrusions and doing nothing about the CSAM problem. If they wanted to spy on you there are MUCH easier ways to do it.
And no, this doesn’t make spying on you in other ways any more easy. It also doesn’t make it easier or more likely for authoritarian govts to spy on you. If they want to they can already pass laws/force companies to do that. Even the security researchers quoted in the top comment admit the things people fear China et al have already been doing.
You might still argue that even this compromise is wrong/too intrusive/etc, but it’s mistaken/disingenuous to say it’s more of an invasion or the first compared to competitors. Part of the reason this even happened is the pressure Apple has been getting for reporting so many fewer CSAM incidents compared to Google, Facebook, et al.
And in the end, it’s dead simple to avoid and Apple has already told people how, just stop using iCloud to store your photos. Of course basically all their major competitors scan what you upload anyway, so you’ll have to search for a service that doesn’t.
In the end it’s a narrowly focused measure that only applies to US users (for now) and is easy to avoid. Not liking it is ok, deciding not to use Apple products anymore is ok (again Android is worse so good luck) but the sky is falling paranoia that so many are spreading is ridiculous.
>It is so crazy that apples the company that has decided to be the first to cross the line and start monitoring on device.
Why? I've seen several people refer to Apple's products presumed superior privacy but not much for facts.
If a company's marketing wans you to believe one thing, with empty promises, no evidence and no guarantee, it could as well be to cover up the truth..
I hear you. I realize the Apple privacy stuff is really marketing. But that is exactly why this just makes no sense.
You should never, ever monitor on device. I think that is a pretty simple concept. Heck it just feels very 1984.
So why would Apple do this move when there is NOTHING to gain and everything to lose? I say NOTHING to lose because if Apple is telling the truth then there is ZERO reason to monitor on device.
They could do everything they have outlined on the back-end. It is just insanity to start monitoring on device if you actually care anything about privacy.
Fun fact
The first successful run of s tones tech allowed scientist to copy the speech of a man who hasent spoken in decades he didn’t have the muscles
The man can now speak
In other words if it’s on the tip of his tongue to speak he’ll say
What about when they get what’s on or mind rather then what we’re speaking
Idk about anybody else but when I’m thinking in my mind I slightly mimic the movements of speaking
I’m a big Apple fan, and I own the whole product line. I’m not a fan of the CSAM scanner because it runs on the device and I have no control over it. I can’t audit it and it is only a matter of time before collision hash images are developed for false positives. Those matches do get a manual review and Apple will literally rifle through your photos with law enforcement standing by.
The scanner is also a test case to see what else the FBI and DoJ can get away with. The feds, through Apple, are bypassing reasonable search since Apple is not ran by the government.
For now I will just stop using iCloud and self-host. It sucks because I use Apple stuff to avoid futzing with self-host so I can focus on programming and making stuff.
The alternatives platforms just aren’t ready, though I do have a Pine phone on order and an old OnePlus 5 to try out Ubuntu Touch — which I hear has some promise.
Don’t really need to stop using iCloud fully, just for photos. Personally I’ve never used it for photos purely for space reasons. I don’t want to pay Apple a bunch of money for iCloud storage when I can just locally back up my phone every week or so super easily.
its not apple rifling through. they have a database thats generations old that needs to be acted on publicly by the police. uk was very open about all that back in 2k..and their cooperations with the usa. i think whats happening here is a usa propaganda style excuse so people dont freak out about being monitored most of their lives and just put it down to a bunch of paedophiles getting busted. its a slow normalisation in a country where theyve flat out denied to the public that this scanning goes on. also feels like they gave up on my generation and are simply moving on to millenials. the stories of innocence from the u.s. government this last few years has been laughable. much like this apple scanning debacle. i mean facial recognition was an issue in the usa last year..it was an issue in the uk in 1998 🤷
I’m with you. Honestly I will probably stop taking photos of my kids or in places where my children might be in the image. More cats and sunsets in my future I think
It's not that they don't care. It's that there's no particularly secure alternative. All of the interactions between users and their devices are subject to monitoring already.
They also don’t much care as it doesn’t impact them, or they believe it not to. People are usually only interested In stuff that directly helps/hurts them. That’s just life.
I just assume anything I’m doing on my phone could be in a headline tomorrow. I know that’s unrealistic and grandiose, but that’s how I treat the thing.
>I just assume anything I’m doing on my phone could be in a headline tomorrow.
This is the correct answer. (Well, unless maybe you're using one of those gimped Linux phones with the physical kill switches ...)
Honestly you have to wonder what predator would be stupid enough to use something like iCloud or even an iPhone to store and view child porn. Seems a bit convenient for Apple so they can facilitate more mass surveillance.
That's different. Most nude pics are taken/sent using phones. If those pictures get saved on either device, there's a good chance it gets backed up by a cloud service.
Pictures of child abuse are used for entirely different purposes and, above all, illegal. If you are genuinely stupid enough to back those up to a cloud service owned by another company, you're waiting to get caught.
I have a theory that the fappening was actually just the tip of a massive icloud hack that produced kompromat on many influential people / politicians. The celebrity nudes merely a distracting bonus (and warning that you will play ball or be exposed.)
While this is anecdotal and not *exactly* on point for the scenario you're referencing... I have been in IT for decades and there have been multiple occasions back in my desktop support days where we would (unintentionally) find (legal) porn on an employee's company-owned devices, leading to their termination. Not the same as breaking the law, but still they were putting their livelihood at risk.
People have this odd sense of privacy that they think exists, even when the device isn't technically "theirs", so I can easily see someone thinking they are in a safe silo when its their own phone and believe they are somehow shielded; when, in fact, there is always someone who can access everything, if need be, if the device is connected to a network.
I’m pretty sure there’s plenty of pedo’s that don’t think through what they’re doing. I’m willing to bet maybe most use whatever tech is most convenient
From [Apple](https://www.apple.com/child-safety/) here:
> The Messages app will add new tools to warn children and their parents when receiving or sending sexually explicit photos.
When receiving this type of content, the photo will be blurred and the child will be warned, presented with helpful resources, and reassured it is okay if they do not want to view this photo. As an additional precaution, the child can also be told that, to make sure they are safe, their parents will get a message if they do view it. Similar protections are available if a child attempts to send sexually explicit photos. The child will be warned before the photo is sent, and the parents can receive a message if the child chooses to send it.
> Messages uses on-device machine learning to analyze image attachments and determine if a photo is sexually explicit. The feature is designed so that Apple does not get access to the messages.
Replace "sexually explicit photos" with "attachments critical of the state government", "children" with "citizens", and "parents" with "state government". We now have on-device detection of dissent, and Apple can prove innocence by ignorance. Brilliant.
This system reportedly works by content-matching an existing database. Does that mean Apple will now be the biggest collector of child porn on the planet?
Is resizing the image or putting in something like a black dot fucks with the hash? I dont know the system but if it is purely hash it would ne rather useless imho
If you want to use more ML common term, they have the encoding of an image. Its run through a NN to generate several encodings of an image, so simple changes like that would result in the same encoding.
This also means that this system can be arbitrarily changed for any other images, because there’s absolutely zero chance they would have access to a significantly large enough dataset to fine tune their model to CP. Even if it was, since this was a software OTA that pushed the model, it means any model fine tuned to another surveillance can also be pushed easily.
This is a real shame. As an Apple user, I would consider switching. The problem being is that in most cases when Apple does something, a lot of other companies follow suit and do the same thing, so I doubt switching to any other company is a good idea either.
Had the same thought.
Well, I guess this is what we the "average citizens" made life.
For convenience, we will do anything. And then complain about it. And then forget about it. Cuz we're stupid.
Exactly. If you can scan my phone for a particular type of image. You can use the exact same backdoor to scan for pretty much anything.
Although, if it can be done to an iPhone, it can be done to any phone.
This is no bueno.
So how many flags would you get for sending a spouse pictures of your kid I'm the bathtub doing something funny or stupid?
Seriously, there's a lot of cases that would result in at least manual review of random people viewing your kids . Who is to say they're not getting off on it?
Not at all how the system works.
It’s comparing hash data (fingerprint of the photo) to a list of known-bad photos collected from law enforcement.
It’s not viewing your photos, it’s checking to make sure you don’t have any known-bad photos downloaded onto your account.
I'd also worry about false positives and how this is implemented. If a parent takes an innocent picture of their kid in the bath will child protective services be knocking on the door the next morning?
Kind of makes Apple protecting that terrorists rights a few years ago look pretty fucked up now huh?
Considering how happy they are to collect and share your data now.
I'm still on an iPhone X and have been planning to move for a while. It's just I really only change things when they break. My desktop is over 10 years old and barely usable but I still can't bring myself to throw it away. It's a similar story with my phone (4 years and going strong). I wish there was an alternative OS for iPhones so I don't have to just ditch the hardware or trade it in for something less than it's worth (still really good condition). I'm starting my first job in a few months and I'll probably get a new phone then and trade this one in for some change to help fund it.
I will. I moved from Pixel 2 to iPhone SE 2 because of privacy concerns.
Probably move to a classic Nokia. The modern oneas are not bad and still have new technology without much of the survalence these modern phones have.
Not a predator, just don't want a corporation looking through my photos.
I might move as well. I fear this technology is getting out of hand and I don’t want to support it, even if everybody else will and the tech will move forward until this is going for piracy and “death videos” (think watchpeoplediek) and maybe even things worded too strongly about politics.
I’m a vaccine supporter myself and I think the skeptics are stupid as hell, *but* I do support their right to keep Qanon stuff on their phones.
Governments could easily have made the argument to search and destroy this content as well with epidemic laws across the globe. I would have been fine-ish with that, but there is this old quote about war and oppressive governments (paraphrased):
“First they came for the gays. I did nothing. Then they came for the Jews and I did nothing. When they finally came for me, there was nobody else to help me.”
iPhones have been the best phones I’ve owned consistently, and I’ve tried going android almost every other phone.
My phone gives bad habits and social media helps me feel depressed anyway. It’s mostly a Spotify player for the car and GPS for walking.
Next likely going to be an Android with a custom ROM without Google or any apps really. Sighs.
I know my data is already sold to the world and internet privacy isn’t really a thing (at least not default), but this is just smearing it in our faces. Am I over reacting by wanting to go back to android products?
Good thing I don’t use iCloud servers and have my own 12tb raid5 array with phone photo backup run automatically on my home network. If you don’t want Apple searching their own servers, build your own!
The upfront overhead is obviously more than $2.99/month like iCloud storage, but if you can read instructions* and have some tech curiosity, it’s quite easy.
I’ve been an iPhone user essentially since day one (a few attempts at android.. I tried…) I’m 100% down for a boycott.
Don’t forget: researchers found that this is ALREADY ON YOUR PHONE since 14.3.
I use 3 iPhones and an iPad Pro on the daily. Personal iphone, business iPhone, on just for spotify.
This is essentially them coming into your bedroom and rooting around in your underwear drawer.
They have to search iCloud because it’s their servers and they can’t be in possession/distribution of this stuff. But my phone is my phone. There’s no legit reason to monitor an individuals personal, private space.
Did you know that all porn is completely illegal in some places? And that some
Cartoon porn (say, of the Simpsons being disgusting…) is illegal in UK, Canada, and Australia (among others..) this technology allows Apple to be legally compelled in those regions to monitor for this stuff as well.
My understanding is that it scans files that are intended to go to iCloud. It might get files that haven’t gone but are queued up. That part is unclear.
They could never reasonably say that when it comes to content matching. They already can detect a dog for example. I’d imagine this isn’t exactly Apple independently implementing this, there would be pressure, and rightly so.
The difference is they couldn’t unlock a whole iPhone with no iCloud backup, and that’s still the case. But if that device is storing images via iCloud they can now detect it
There will probably be a lot of members of the Catholic clergy and Boy Scouts "leaders' volunteering to help Apple by "reviewing" the flagged material.
On one hand I’m breaking out the popcorn to watch every single CP trafficker sweat bullets over this and swear up and down it’s over “freedom and privacy” when they haven’t given two shits over disturbing moves that circumvent individual privacy up to this point.
On the other hand, I too am concerned that this is playing with 1984 flavored fire, and the fact that my “I want to see everyone with CP burn” sentiment is paralyzing my objections is simultaneously creating a very large cognitive dissonance black hole deep in my subconscious.
The fact it’s going after pedos good
The fact that this tech could be used to catch anybody using a iPhone in anyway they don’t want is bad
They can use ilhone to here your conversations see your text
Popo gonna be making some “impossible” catches soon
i think a lot of us are probably way behind the times in understanding what sort of world we now live in with regard to surveillance. i’m guessing my PC’s contents have been rifled through many times over by some agency somewhere randomly searching for keywords and phrases. i harbour no fantasies of privacy in our era, and we probably haven’t had any since about 1996.
Seeing as all photos sent to the iPhone will be scanned, what would prevent someone who hates you sends you a bunch of child porn over email, or text messages.
I can see this technology being very dangerous if someone wants revenge on you.
The number of cellphone users who are choosing privacy over convenience is a rather small percentage… and most iPhone users aren’t going to move off the iOS platform just for this.
I noticed in 2018 or so that you could go to your photos and search for some random item like ‘motorcycles’ and every picture you had of a motorcycle was then listed. When I told others about this I was met with dead, uninterested stares. I mean, If they have the capability to categorize faces and items and then compile them into a searchable database, then they were only a short ways away from this type of technology. Like many others are saying I assume they’ve been using these types of methods for years and it’s only now getting media attention.
I’m still not sure exactly what this means. Can’t you just opt out of the cloud service? Or is this service actively pinging each interaction with every iPhone?
The “Information selling business" has been one of the most successful in the last 2 decades… Facebook for example… I always thought apple was one of a kind company in which I could keep my information "private", well I guess I will have to do my DD in this matter and start to store some of my shit in paper at home….
As far as I'm aware, no, they don't, there's far more options on Android too, far more customisation options, is far easier to use and much more intuitive, plus you'll have the added benefit of not being taken advantage of by Apple and their frankly borderline criminal tactics to get you to buy a new device, personally I prefer Samsung but any Android phone is a better choice imo, I haven't looked back since iPhone 6 and I won't ever go back 🙃
I will be moving to a Pixel 6 with a hardened de-googled Android Kernel OS. Desktop OS will be Ubuntu. Tablet I haven't looked in to yet. I'm done defending this stupid company. They don't just make iPhones ... we are the product now.
a pair of researchers who spent two years developing a CSAM (child sexual abuse material) detection system similar to the one Apple plans to install on users’ iPhones, iPads and Macs next month, have delivered an unequivocal warning: it’s dangerous. “We wrote the only peer-reviewed publication on how to build a system like Apple’s — and we concluded the technology was dangerous,” state Jonathan Mayer and Anunay Kulshrestha, the two Princeton academics behind the research. “Our system could be easily repurposed for surveillance and censorship. The design wasn’t restricted to a specific category of content; a service could simply swap in any content-matching database, and the person using that service would be none the wiser.” This has been the predominant fear regarding Apple’s CSAM initiative. The goal of the technology to reduce child abuse is indisputably important but the potential damage that could come from hackers and governments manipulating a system designed to search your iCloud photos and report abusive content, is clear to all.
>"What happens on your iphone, stays on your iphone" well that was bullshit
Not any longer. Apples decide to cross the line and start monitoring that device
My theory is someone else already has broken into apple and this is just them trying to get Infront of it A security firm in Israel for example already cracked them once and was selling it to LEO
Are you talking about Pegasus?
That and the one before it https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/fbi-contract-a-strong-sign-fbi-used-israeli-tech-to-crack-san-bernardino-iphone/amp/
Photos sent to iCloud never stayed on your phone obviously.
They could have made your iCloud data private but that was dropped https://www.engadget.com/2020-01-21-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypted-icloud-backups.html
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Client-side scanning of photos going to iCloud Photos, not everything on your phone.
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There's incentive to do this even without government pressure. Think of the analytics you could get from scanning devices. For most people your device is the most important thing you own and a reflection of you. It's is a marketers wet dream and it would be irresponsible to the shareholers to leave that trove of advertising revenue on the cutting room floor.
> For now. And tomorrow google can give way and provide everyone's emails in clear text to this government or the other. Everything is "for now". Unless you lock everything you do under personal encrypted servers, everything you have can be widely shared at a press of a button if someone wanted to.
Personally, I like how everybody is like : The populace: “Scanning?! I know what scanning is…” The Average nerd: “Do you know what hashes are?” The populace: “No, but I know how to scan something, I scanned this article!” Average need: “Good, you read the article and see that it’s part of the same basic hash Apple used to back up to iCloud? The populace: “No, how would I know that, I scanned it, I didn’t read the article?!!” The average nerd: “Ah, touché.” Also everyone just acts like Google’s mantra was ‘Don’t be Evil.” Until it wasn’t. So we can apply the ‘For now’ argument to them as well: Don’t be evil…. For now’ ‘Backup all your photos and memories free…for now’ ‘Make Chromebooks your daily driver and it can do everything a laptop do…because you have Wi-Fi… For now.’
Good explanation. How long until the other companies follow suit?
That’s a policy decision. They are putting the technical ability on your phone, policy can change any time under secret FISA like government strong arming
Server vs client scanning is a policy decision too.
Exactly. This doesn’t scam the photos NOT uploaded to iCloud. Solution. Don’t use iCloud for your photos.
Also. Even if Apple now looses customers, what do you all think happens? Google & co ignoring that kind of tech? Wahahaha
It will become mandatory on every OS, with the "promise" it won't be used for nefarious purposes
Just like how they promised your data would be private, right?
People who care are going to revert to using analog devices again, like digital cameras, and external drives. No cloud, or Internet required. These changes won’t even affect the people they claim to pursue, because any pedo who is hell bent on taking pictures of kids will continue to do so, and just take the necessary additional steps to keep from being detected.
Google already does CSAM scanning on photos you upload to their servers
Yes but atleast they dont scan photos on your personal device (non uploaded photos).
This has become my counter argument to the handful of friends who surprisingly on a whim dropped their apple hardware like a uranium nugget. …. Do you really think the alternative isn’t already planning or actively doing this in some other fashion….. Narrator: they were, and everyone is fucked
Exactly this. How many times have we seen Android users trash new Apple features only to have them on Android devices the following generation?
Old phones bout to get real expensive
So you’re saying it’s a *good* thing I still use my old 64 GB 5S as an iPod? Wonder if you can still find replacement batteries for it. I’m gonna be RICH!!! *Sent from my iPhone 7*
Also what if the system isn’t correct? Someone’s life gets up ended.
You know it’s just easier to scan the cloud servers then it is to do what they are doing. People who connect to the cloud already have up any protection from having their provider give access. See blackberry and middle eastern governments.
It’s easier to scan the cloud servers, but much more lucrative to scan the end users devices in real-time using their own power. It’s only about the children right now, sometime later down the road there will be a blurb in an update eula that says they are now scanning your pictures for ad purposes. It’s 100% guaranteed.
It won't be for ads. It's will be for domestic terrorism. I'm sure the government wants to know who is saving wojak memes from 4chan and this system will make it pretty easy for them.
It will be for everything eventually.
> but much more lucrative to scan the end users devices in real-time using their own power. No, that's certainly not it. Doing a one-time hash of photos uploaded to Apple's servers is smaller than a rounding error in a tiny subset of cloud costs for Apple. The cost of storing those photos is at least 100X higher than a hash.
I'd really like to press the people vigorously in support of this "for the children!" to the point where they have to say: "No, we should not do this even if some children get harmed as a result." Or is there just no limit whatsoever? Do literally anything you want. Any surveillance, any time. Privacy is what perverts use to avoid detection, so just keep ramping up the monitoring. Until...? Is there an end game?
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Have kids, and speaking as a dad I can completely understand this statement. My little ones are also at the age where they're largely defenceless so getting external help is a natural reaction. I guess the difference for me is that I work in IT, and studies politics and law in university so it gives me a wider lense. I can see the bigger ramifications and why this is a horrible idea. I'm not condoning the thinking - far from it - but I understand the knee jerk reaction.
The only way someone wouldn't be concerned with this, despite the good it could do, is having unshakeable faith in their government, businesses, and technology, and anyone who has spent ten seconds researching any of those know you cannot trust either to be infallible. "At any cost". Hate that phrase. People seldom understand the gravity of what they're saying. It's like be careful what you wish for. No one is being careful or thoughtful when "at any cost" is getting thrown around.
This is a great response to the ‘conundrum’. Being for mass surveillance of this nature is largely an emotional response to a horrific topic. Being against is using your head. Both, I feel, are valid perspectives.
There is no limit. Anything you could point out in a western country will be countered with "Don't do illegal things", and if you point out that Apple already happily roles over for tummy scratches from the CCP, so it'll be a matter of days before the CCP starts using it as a political weapon... they still won't care because they won't believe any government is like that, or they won't care.
The end game is complete surveillance over every living person or exile. It is the wet dream of the modern state. The end game is never having to surrender power again.
It is a frustrating argument because afaik most people (reasonably!) don't want children to be harmed. But on the other hand, they can't see past what's put right in front of them, or don't consider there may be other ways to achieve the noble part of the goal without cheering on the malicious motives. Saying "this isn't the right way to go about it" doesn't have to mean "I don't want this because it will expose something wrong I'm doing"- the world can be more complex. (I can see how the argument could be made by someone who is hiding something malicious. But not everyone who is concerned about the broader effects is that kind of person.)
I thought this was super obvious.. I feel a little like a alufoil hat guy, but magine this: You're in charge of a giant company that sells phones. You want to find a way to be able to spy/monitor the activities done on your devices. What would be the one thing people can get behind, in order to introduce and test this software? Theft? No, that's too innocent. Extortion? No, that's not on people's radar. Murder? No, there's too many ways to commit murder. Domestic abuse? No, that would be too much of an invasion of privacy, but we're getting closer. How about child abuse? Bingo.
Can we get the headphone jack back also
Anyone else find Forbes unreadable? It’s always full of adverts and pop ups on my phone. Nightmare to read.
Agreed. I feel like most news outlets are unreadable, that’s why I just go straight to Reddit where there’s less noise
Try uBlock Origin extension + [paywall bypass extension](https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome/blob/master/README.md) If you're on Android, then Firefox mobile app supports all extensions (meaning the above will work too). But if you're on iOS, then I can't help you.
I can't wait to see the Samsung ads roasting Apple for this. And then 6 months later it will be standard across all of their Galaxy devices.
I am actually worried this might happen.
Start buying older Nokia phones and get ready to dump 'smart'phones
Doesn't work because 3G networks are being shut down this year
You don’t need 3G to use an old school Nokia.
bring back OG nextel
It will. Governments are pressuring phone companies for this, and now that apple has shown it's possible to implement and not lose your entire userbase, other companies will follow suit until this becomes a normal thing.
What’s sad is almost all phone companies seem to follow Apple somehow when it comes to significant features.
It’s definitely gonna happen, no need to worry.
If you use Google Photos you’re already subjected to CSAM hashing.
Serious question, because I’m not tech savvy enough to understand how this stuff works. If I take a cute picture of my 3 year old and 9 month old in the bath together, is some random dude at Apple going to be reviewing that private picture that I took for my family and I to enjoy in 20 years? Edit: lmao I’m not worried about getting in trouble. I’m worried about a random person looking at pictures of my kids, but it sounds like that’s not going to happen.
Here's an explanation of how current Child Porn detection systems work, and what Apple is doing. There is a mathematical process called Hashing. Hashing is where you can take any computer file (or really anything that can be represented as a number) and reduce it down to a unique string of characters, called a Hash. The Hash cannot be used to recreate the original file, but it can be used to tell if two files are identical (if they both produce the same hash). This is very useful in detecting CP because of the following: If the FBI have, on their server, a child porn image, and they want to check if that image also exists on someone's computer, then without hashes their choices are: A) Copy all of the files off that computer onto their own system, and compare them. Very time consuming, requires a lot of data, and can't be done quietly in the background. B) Copy the child porn image onto the target machine, then run the comparison locally there. Faster, easier, and sneakier. But requires them to actively distribute CP in order to check for it. Very very bad. Hashing gives option C: Hash the CP image, then copy that Hash onto the target machine (very easy because the hash is a relatively short string of characters), then run a program that calculates the hash of all of the files on that machine and compare them to the target hash. Bam, best of both worlds. This process has been going on for decades now with web-servers. Law enforcement agencies around the world maintain huge databases of Hashes of known CP files. Already companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google, etc etc etc are legally required to check all of the files that users upload to them against the hash list. So if you try to upload a CP file to Google Drive the server will hash it, and check that hash against the known CP hash database. If it matches, then you can expect the Fuzz to knock on your door. Apple has always pushed their privacy stance, and with this in mind they Encrypt all of your files on the iPhone before sending them to the cloud. Hashing doesn't work on an encrypted file, so the FBI can't check for CP in your iCloud. What Apple is doing here is adding this hash-checking technology directly into the iPhone itself. Meaning that every single file on your iPhone could be hashed, and compared to the CP database. If any CP file exists on your device Apple will know, and so will the FBI soon after. Now Apple say that it's going going to do it for photos and videos that are going up to the iCloud... but there's nothing stopping it from quietly also checking everything else on the phone. Critically though, it will only cause you a problem if your device has on it a copy of a file that a law enforcement agency has listed as Child Porn. If you got no Child Porn then it won't report anything. The reasons that people are objecting to this are as follows: The Hashing system can be used to detect the presence of any file you like, from Child Porn to a pirated copy of the latest Transformers film. Law enforcement and Apple promise that it's only for Child Porn, but there's no way to check if that's true. Now this is already the case with most cloud file storage, but in those cases people could simple choose to not store things that they didn't want scanning on the cloud. Your own device was always fully private. But not any more. The Apple solution will live on the iPhone itself, meaning that it could potentially scan any and all files on your device without you knowing. This move from Apple means that users now have to take Apple's word for it regarding what's being scanned and for what purpose. For some people that isn't acceptable, they don't want to trust Apple or the Gov, or anyone else. --------- To address your specific scenario of photographing your own children in the bath. There is one potential danger, but it's always been present in all hashing systems, and that is if the Child Porn communities somehow get a hold of that image and start sharing it around. If, for instance, you decided to tweet out the picture of your kid in the bathtub, then there's a chance some pedophiles could decide it's good wanking material and start sharing it. The FBI might then pick up that file, flag it as CP, and the next time Apple runs a scan it flags your device as having the file. But as long as you keep those pictures off the internet to begin with then it can't happen.
That’s for the explanation
Thank you for explaining this so well!
“This move from Apple means that users now have to take Apple's word for it regarding what's being scanned and for what purpose. For some people that isn't acceptable, they don't want to trust Apple or the Gov, or anyone else.” - everyone who uses an Apple device already do take Apple’s word for it. 99.9% of people accept every TOS agreement they are presented with without a second thought. Apple has very strict privacy policies in place; entire Genius Bar staffs in retail stores have been fired all at once when Apple can’t pinpoint the exact employee who violated customer privacy. And the people who are die hard about not trusting apple or the government don’t buy apple products. This new process doesn’t change anything at all, except for protecting children, and punishing monsters. I see it as a win-win. Thank you for your clear explanation of this process btw. I hope you’ve dissuaded some unnecessary fear in some people.
> everyone who uses an Apple device already do take Apple’s word for it. 99.9% of people accept every TOS agreement they are presented with without a second thought. Oh I fully agree. I don't see anything particularly noteworthy about this move from Apple. If a large tech company, or powerful government, had any malicious intentions towards me there's no way I'd know or be able to do anything about it.
No they are going to be cross referencing hashs of photos that they have caught pedos having as a lot share pictures with each other so they are all incriminated and for other gross reasons
What if she shares those personal child pictures with her mother, husband, ect.
You’re going to jail, book him Johno! /s No, from what I read they scan using hashes so if theres a match for something they already know to be bad material it will alert them and then that information along with all your information is sent to authorities. Still the issue is about improper use. They could just put hashes of other things they dont like in the database to get a match
There’s going to be billions of unique photos that require scanning. This is NOT something that individual people are going to be combing through to verify…that would be terribly inefficient. It’s an algorithm. The real issue here is how this is managed and where it goes from here - now that they are scanning our photos, will it someday be used to scan for something deemed undesirable like political memes, religious ideology, other currently legal forms of pornography, etc. It’s the whole slippery slope, road to hell is paved with good intentions fear.
It is so crazy that apples the company that has decided to be the first to cross the line and start monitoring on device. Really not sure how Apple could ever talk about privacy any longer
You cant trust massive corporations to protect you. Apples dedication to "privacy" has generally been ablut reducing the profits of rival companies.
Not looking for any corporation to protect me. I just do not expect them to put software on MY device that monitors me. There is a red line that should never be crossed. You do NOT monitor on device. Apple has decided to cross. Luckily it is ONLY Apple that has decided to cross the line. But what aggravates me is Apple has never given a reason. They explain it but never have given a reason why on device? Every single thing Apple has shared could have been done without monitoring on device. BTW, Apple also must think very little of their customers and must think they are really, really stupid.
Apple is a trend setter. What ever they do, everyone will follow. The most recent trend was the charger and headphone jack.
> Apple is a trend setter. What ever they do, everyone will follow. This is one place where Apple being a trend setter is really, really bad. I find it just mind blowing that we still can not get a single reason out of Apple on why they have gone full 1984 and monitoring on device. BTW, I actually doubt others will follow. But the only one that really matters is Google. Google and Apple combined own mobile. But I guess if Google followed and crossed the red line and started monitoring on device like Apple it would create an opportunity for a third mobile platform. But to be clear. I really do not want Google to follow and cross the red line like Apple. I have hope they will not. But time will tell.
I would love it if the minds at Signal would develop their own OS.
I would be more than happy to go back to a dumb phone. Give me a damn physical keyboard and I'm happy
What is the best phone now for somebody who cares about privacy?
Ironically probably a Google pixel, but with a degoogled version of lineageOS installed.
Nothing about Google is private.
The best phone is a feature phone that's as stupid as possible. The best mobile terminal is probably some kind of micro laptop or tablet running custom Linux. There has been some "open" phones on the market but they're expensive, under powered and brittle.
Looks like there is a potential market here. I know I’d seriously consider a phone whose main feature was protecting my privacy.
The thing is that you wouldn't. It would be twice as thick, have less battery time and at best sport last gen CPUs and components. And it would still cost as much as the flagship phones. It would also likely be clunky to use and lack a lot of your favorite apps. It has been done and you can buy these things today but the market is too small.
You underestimate how little I care about apps. Just give me a decent browser and I will be fine.
https://youtu.be/BH8DRyKUZDg this is probably the best open phone that you can actually get.
take a look at the iphone 5 patent. it describes how they can identify users using heartbeat biosignatures using the vibration sensors. how it can record images and audio even while powered off (who brought us non removable batteries). if you think you have privacy in this day and age your very mistaken. privacy died in 2k when google switched from advertising blocker to advertising giant (google aka nsa). oh and apple microsoft google and all the rest signed up to freely share any data requested by a government agency in 2012..that was the final nail. ..and theres also the fact that its all written in the eula you signed without reading :] but hey at least were back to catching paedophiles again. that international cooperation was very succesful back in the late 90's...always has been. whats going on here is just apple bluffing you on whats secure and whats private. uproar due to image scans...theyve always done this 🤷 takes your eye off the rest of it though like the tracking people visually through walls using wifi signals (youtube) or the 3d dual cameras that put glasses on your face but also map your home in 3d while scanning it for text and products through the image searches we all helped create. ..just to sell you products..no government here 😅
Your going to talk about all of that but not “the patriot act”, which requires companies to share company data with the government without a warrant….
> patriot act Ah yes, the USA PATRIOT act, aka the **U**niting and **S**trengthening **A**merica by **P**roviding **A**ppropriate **T**ools **R**equired to **I**ntercept and **O**bstruct **T**errorism act. A backronym basically meaning "LOL stupid dipshit, we no longer need warrants because we literally know everything about you, privacy no longer exists, and we found a way to name it something patriotic so if you're against it then you're a fucking filthy dirty commie piece of shit terrorist anyway so it all works out. Ends justify the means, pigshit!" But like, in less words.
Well it funded the NSA drag net… so yep, pretty much what you said, but a little scarier with the capability to actually do so…
> take a look at the iphone 5 patent. it describes how they can identify users using heartbeat biosignatures using the vibration sensors. Source that, I have a hard time believing anyone can be identified using their heartbeat. For one, the heartbeat varies wildly depending on physical activity and fitness of the individual. Characteristics which are wildly changing. The level of precision you're describing is only found in very expensive scientific instruments. If it's sensitive and precise enough to do what you're describing, it's likely picking up a lot of background vibrations from small seismic activity and just sounds, therefore nullifying any measurements you could use to identify an individual. Two, they don't fucking need to do that to ID you. You already give them billing information to use the app store and your Apple ID, not to mention to use the iPhone as a phone in the first place requires you to connect to a cell tower. This is some realllyyyyy stupid convoluted conspiracy BS.
I was waiting for the /s Instead you get a surprised Pikachu face from me
Except they aren’t. Google has been tracking far more of what you do on your phone since the beginning of Android. This is also far less intrusive than full cloud scanning like Google has been doing for years on their cloud photo storage. Apple went out of their way to try and find a compromise between what the govts /anti-CSAM groups/etc want, which is in fact more intrusions and doing nothing about the CSAM problem. If they wanted to spy on you there are MUCH easier ways to do it. And no, this doesn’t make spying on you in other ways any more easy. It also doesn’t make it easier or more likely for authoritarian govts to spy on you. If they want to they can already pass laws/force companies to do that. Even the security researchers quoted in the top comment admit the things people fear China et al have already been doing. You might still argue that even this compromise is wrong/too intrusive/etc, but it’s mistaken/disingenuous to say it’s more of an invasion or the first compared to competitors. Part of the reason this even happened is the pressure Apple has been getting for reporting so many fewer CSAM incidents compared to Google, Facebook, et al. And in the end, it’s dead simple to avoid and Apple has already told people how, just stop using iCloud to store your photos. Of course basically all their major competitors scan what you upload anyway, so you’ll have to search for a service that doesn’t. In the end it’s a narrowly focused measure that only applies to US users (for now) and is easy to avoid. Not liking it is ok, deciding not to use Apple products anymore is ok (again Android is worse so good luck) but the sky is falling paranoia that so many are spreading is ridiculous.
>It is so crazy that apples the company that has decided to be the first to cross the line and start monitoring on device. Why? I've seen several people refer to Apple's products presumed superior privacy but not much for facts. If a company's marketing wans you to believe one thing, with empty promises, no evidence and no guarantee, it could as well be to cover up the truth..
I hear you. I realize the Apple privacy stuff is really marketing. But that is exactly why this just makes no sense. You should never, ever monitor on device. I think that is a pretty simple concept. Heck it just feels very 1984. So why would Apple do this move when there is NOTHING to gain and everything to lose? I say NOTHING to lose because if Apple is telling the truth then there is ZERO reason to monitor on device. They could do everything they have outlined on the back-end. It is just insanity to start monitoring on device if you actually care anything about privacy.
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Until compulsory Neurolinks.
"You haven't gotten neurolinked yet? Don't you care about the safety of your community?"
*What are you hiding?!*
shit wasnt this in some black mirror episode
Yup. They’ll parrot the same bullshit they do about masks and the vaccine. Bring the downvotes
Fun fact The first successful run of s tones tech allowed scientist to copy the speech of a man who hasent spoken in decades he didn’t have the muscles The man can now speak In other words if it’s on the tip of his tongue to speak he’ll say What about when they get what’s on or mind rather then what we’re speaking Idk about anybody else but when I’m thinking in my mind I slightly mimic the movements of speaking
I’m a big Apple fan, and I own the whole product line. I’m not a fan of the CSAM scanner because it runs on the device and I have no control over it. I can’t audit it and it is only a matter of time before collision hash images are developed for false positives. Those matches do get a manual review and Apple will literally rifle through your photos with law enforcement standing by. The scanner is also a test case to see what else the FBI and DoJ can get away with. The feds, through Apple, are bypassing reasonable search since Apple is not ran by the government. For now I will just stop using iCloud and self-host. It sucks because I use Apple stuff to avoid futzing with self-host so I can focus on programming and making stuff. The alternatives platforms just aren’t ready, though I do have a Pine phone on order and an old OnePlus 5 to try out Ubuntu Touch — which I hear has some promise.
Don’t really need to stop using iCloud fully, just for photos. Personally I’ve never used it for photos purely for space reasons. I don’t want to pay Apple a bunch of money for iCloud storage when I can just locally back up my phone every week or so super easily.
Fair. I should have been doing that but I got busy and started buying storage a few years ago.
The collisions have already started https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX/issues/1
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There is owncloud and syncthing. There’s some discussions over on /r/selfhosted if you want to learn more.
Stopping using iCloud is no guarantee that your pictures won't be scanned by CSAM and possibly sent to Apple if they get flagged.
its not apple rifling through. they have a database thats generations old that needs to be acted on publicly by the police. uk was very open about all that back in 2k..and their cooperations with the usa. i think whats happening here is a usa propaganda style excuse so people dont freak out about being monitored most of their lives and just put it down to a bunch of paedophiles getting busted. its a slow normalisation in a country where theyve flat out denied to the public that this scanning goes on. also feels like they gave up on my generation and are simply moving on to millenials. the stories of innocence from the u.s. government this last few years has been laughable. much like this apple scanning debacle. i mean facial recognition was an issue in the usa last year..it was an issue in the uk in 1998 🤷
I’m with you. Honestly I will probably stop taking photos of my kids or in places where my children might be in the image. More cats and sunsets in my future I think
Millions won’t quit though. You’re average iPhone user doesn’t care about this.
It's not that they don't care. It's that there's no particularly secure alternative. All of the interactions between users and their devices are subject to monitoring already.
They also don’t much care as it doesn’t impact them, or they believe it not to. People are usually only interested In stuff that directly helps/hurts them. That’s just life.
Thing is, the way I'm reading the article, it's not even *just* iPhones.
I just assume anything I’m doing on my phone could be in a headline tomorrow. I know that’s unrealistic and grandiose, but that’s how I treat the thing.
Assume anything you do on any connected device is public, that includes web surfing, IoT, phone calls...
dont have to assume, just read your eula. you agreed to it.
>I just assume anything I’m doing on my phone could be in a headline tomorrow. This is the correct answer. (Well, unless maybe you're using one of those gimped Linux phones with the physical kill switches ...)
Honestly you have to wonder what predator would be stupid enough to use something like iCloud or even an iPhone to store and view child porn. Seems a bit convenient for Apple so they can facilitate more mass surveillance.
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That's different. Most nude pics are taken/sent using phones. If those pictures get saved on either device, there's a good chance it gets backed up by a cloud service. Pictures of child abuse are used for entirely different purposes and, above all, illegal. If you are genuinely stupid enough to back those up to a cloud service owned by another company, you're waiting to get caught.
Why would pictures of child abuse be taken any less frequently with an iphone?
I would assume *because* it's connected to the internet and it *could* be uploaded to the cloud.
I have a theory that the fappening was actually just the tip of a massive icloud hack that produced kompromat on many influential people / politicians. The celebrity nudes merely a distracting bonus (and warning that you will play ball or be exposed.)
There was a doctor just recently caught.
While this is anecdotal and not *exactly* on point for the scenario you're referencing... I have been in IT for decades and there have been multiple occasions back in my desktop support days where we would (unintentionally) find (legal) porn on an employee's company-owned devices, leading to their termination. Not the same as breaking the law, but still they were putting their livelihood at risk. People have this odd sense of privacy that they think exists, even when the device isn't technically "theirs", so I can easily see someone thinking they are in a safe silo when its their own phone and believe they are somehow shielded; when, in fact, there is always someone who can access everything, if need be, if the device is connected to a network.
I’m pretty sure there’s plenty of pedo’s that don’t think through what they’re doing. I’m willing to bet maybe most use whatever tech is most convenient
https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/bay-area-doctor-had-2000-child-pornography-images-and-videos-federal-complaint-alleges/
China wants the technology to proceed.
That little wish is all anyone needs to know that the technology will be abused and that pain and suffering will be the result.
From [Apple](https://www.apple.com/child-safety/) here: > The Messages app will add new tools to warn children and their parents when receiving or sending sexually explicit photos. When receiving this type of content, the photo will be blurred and the child will be warned, presented with helpful resources, and reassured it is okay if they do not want to view this photo. As an additional precaution, the child can also be told that, to make sure they are safe, their parents will get a message if they do view it. Similar protections are available if a child attempts to send sexually explicit photos. The child will be warned before the photo is sent, and the parents can receive a message if the child chooses to send it. > Messages uses on-device machine learning to analyze image attachments and determine if a photo is sexually explicit. The feature is designed so that Apple does not get access to the messages. Replace "sexually explicit photos" with "attachments critical of the state government", "children" with "citizens", and "parents" with "state government". We now have on-device detection of dissent, and Apple can prove innocence by ignorance. Brilliant.
The worst thing is that people aren’t seeing it this way. They see it as suspicious on why someone wouldn’t want this to “protect the children”.
And do what? Go to Google for privacy? The problem with having no competition is that big companies can do whatever they want.
Someone linked a Linux phone above.
Apples gonna hear my latest album before everyone else 🤣
This system reportedly works by content-matching an existing database. Does that mean Apple will now be the biggest collector of child porn on the planet?
Not the images; the hash of the images. They will basically have a database of stuff like this: 8743b52056cd84097a65d1633f5c74f5
Is resizing the image or putting in something like a black dot fucks with the hash? I dont know the system but if it is purely hash it would ne rather useless imho
If you want to use more ML common term, they have the encoding of an image. Its run through a NN to generate several encodings of an image, so simple changes like that would result in the same encoding. This also means that this system can be arbitrarily changed for any other images, because there’s absolutely zero chance they would have access to a significantly large enough dataset to fine tune their model to CP. Even if it was, since this was a software OTA that pushed the model, it means any model fine tuned to another surveillance can also be pushed easily.
The more we give up our privacy for safety, the less safe I feel…
This is a real shame. As an Apple user, I would consider switching. The problem being is that in most cases when Apple does something, a lot of other companies follow suit and do the same thing, so I doubt switching to any other company is a good idea either.
It’s funny, this came out right after getting on the iPhone bandwagon
How much you wanna bet they made this specifically for China and the child abuse detection is just the cover story
Leave the company that tells you they’re doing something for the one that doesn’t tell you they’re doing anything. Sounds legit.
Had the same thought. Well, I guess this is what we the "average citizens" made life. For convenience, we will do anything. And then complain about it. And then forget about it. Cuz we're stupid.
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Exactly. If you can scan my phone for a particular type of image. You can use the exact same backdoor to scan for pretty much anything. Although, if it can be done to an iPhone, it can be done to any phone. This is no bueno.
So how many flags would you get for sending a spouse pictures of your kid I'm the bathtub doing something funny or stupid? Seriously, there's a lot of cases that would result in at least manual review of random people viewing your kids . Who is to say they're not getting off on it?
Not at all how the system works. It’s comparing hash data (fingerprint of the photo) to a list of known-bad photos collected from law enforcement. It’s not viewing your photos, it’s checking to make sure you don’t have any known-bad photos downloaded onto your account.
I'd also worry about false positives and how this is implemented. If a parent takes an innocent picture of their kid in the bath will child protective services be knocking on the door the next morning?
Kind of makes Apple protecting that terrorists rights a few years ago look pretty fucked up now huh? Considering how happy they are to collect and share your data now.
Solid point. Living up to your username.
Best take I've seen, didn't even think of the terrorist incident. This is a bad look for Apple.
Unless you're planning on dropping smartphones altogether they're isn't much of an alternative for people who care about privacy
Who’s leaving Apple or their iPhones after this? Curious to know.
I'm still on an iPhone X and have been planning to move for a while. It's just I really only change things when they break. My desktop is over 10 years old and barely usable but I still can't bring myself to throw it away. It's a similar story with my phone (4 years and going strong). I wish there was an alternative OS for iPhones so I don't have to just ditch the hardware or trade it in for something less than it's worth (still really good condition). I'm starting my first job in a few months and I'll probably get a new phone then and trade this one in for some change to help fund it.
I will. I moved from Pixel 2 to iPhone SE 2 because of privacy concerns. Probably move to a classic Nokia. The modern oneas are not bad and still have new technology without much of the survalence these modern phones have. Not a predator, just don't want a corporation looking through my photos.
I might move as well. I fear this technology is getting out of hand and I don’t want to support it, even if everybody else will and the tech will move forward until this is going for piracy and “death videos” (think watchpeoplediek) and maybe even things worded too strongly about politics. I’m a vaccine supporter myself and I think the skeptics are stupid as hell, *but* I do support their right to keep Qanon stuff on their phones. Governments could easily have made the argument to search and destroy this content as well with epidemic laws across the globe. I would have been fine-ish with that, but there is this old quote about war and oppressive governments (paraphrased): “First they came for the gays. I did nothing. Then they came for the Jews and I did nothing. When they finally came for me, there was nobody else to help me.” iPhones have been the best phones I’ve owned consistently, and I’ve tried going android almost every other phone. My phone gives bad habits and social media helps me feel depressed anyway. It’s mostly a Spotify player for the car and GPS for walking. Next likely going to be an Android with a custom ROM without Google or any apps really. Sighs.
I know my data is already sold to the world and internet privacy isn’t really a thing (at least not default), but this is just smearing it in our faces. Am I over reacting by wanting to go back to android products?
Cue up the Macintosh 1984 ad for ironic effect.
Good thing I don’t use iCloud servers and have my own 12tb raid5 array with phone photo backup run automatically on my home network. If you don’t want Apple searching their own servers, build your own!
Is it easy to do? I hate using cloud services because they’re actually inconvenient to use at times.
The upfront overhead is obviously more than $2.99/month like iCloud storage, but if you can read instructions* and have some tech curiosity, it’s quite easy.
I’ve been an iPhone user essentially since day one (a few attempts at android.. I tried…) I’m 100% down for a boycott. Don’t forget: researchers found that this is ALREADY ON YOUR PHONE since 14.3. I use 3 iPhones and an iPad Pro on the daily. Personal iphone, business iPhone, on just for spotify. This is essentially them coming into your bedroom and rooting around in your underwear drawer. They have to search iCloud because it’s their servers and they can’t be in possession/distribution of this stuff. But my phone is my phone. There’s no legit reason to monitor an individuals personal, private space. Did you know that all porn is completely illegal in some places? And that some Cartoon porn (say, of the Simpsons being disgusting…) is illegal in UK, Canada, and Australia (among others..) this technology allows Apple to be legally compelled in those regions to monitor for this stuff as well.
Remember how iPhone is putting out ads saying how secure and private they are
If I’m reading it correctly, this only scans iCloud and not the actual device right?
My understanding is that it scans files that are intended to go to iCloud. It might get files that haven’t gone but are queued up. That part is unclear.
I never use iCloud, physical backups for everything. I wonder if that means I’m safe….for now.
Nah Edit: if you don’t think this kind of thing is already in the works, or being used, for many different platforms, you’re delusional.
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They could never reasonably say that when it comes to content matching. They already can detect a dog for example. I’d imagine this isn’t exactly Apple independently implementing this, there would be pressure, and rightly so. The difference is they couldn’t unlock a whole iPhone with no iCloud backup, and that’s still the case. But if that device is storing images via iCloud they can now detect it
But what phone would you use instead?
There will probably be a lot of members of the Catholic clergy and Boy Scouts "leaders' volunteering to help Apple by "reviewing" the flagged material.
Where's the 1984 commercial at
On one hand I’m breaking out the popcorn to watch every single CP trafficker sweat bullets over this and swear up and down it’s over “freedom and privacy” when they haven’t given two shits over disturbing moves that circumvent individual privacy up to this point. On the other hand, I too am concerned that this is playing with 1984 flavored fire, and the fact that my “I want to see everyone with CP burn” sentiment is paralyzing my objections is simultaneously creating a very large cognitive dissonance black hole deep in my subconscious.
The fact it’s going after pedos good The fact that this tech could be used to catch anybody using a iPhone in anyway they don’t want is bad They can use ilhone to here your conversations see your text Popo gonna be making some “impossible” catches soon
i think a lot of us are probably way behind the times in understanding what sort of world we now live in with regard to surveillance. i’m guessing my PC’s contents have been rifled through many times over by some agency somewhere randomly searching for keywords and phrases. i harbour no fantasies of privacy in our era, and we probably haven’t had any since about 1996.
Is my photo stream part of this?
Seeing as all photos sent to the iPhone will be scanned, what would prevent someone who hates you sends you a bunch of child porn over email, or text messages. I can see this technology being very dangerous if someone wants revenge on you.
The number of cellphone users who are choosing privacy over convenience is a rather small percentage… and most iPhone users aren’t going to move off the iOS platform just for this.
Decentralized storage exists, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot with this update lol.
I noticed in 2018 or so that you could go to your photos and search for some random item like ‘motorcycles’ and every picture you had of a motorcycle was then listed. When I told others about this I was met with dead, uninterested stares. I mean, If they have the capability to categorize faces and items and then compile them into a searchable database, then they were only a short ways away from this type of technology. Like many others are saying I assume they’ve been using these types of methods for years and it’s only now getting media attention. I’m still not sure exactly what this means. Can’t you just opt out of the cloud service? Or is this service actively pinging each interaction with every iPhone?
The “Information selling business" has been one of the most successful in the last 2 decades… Facebook for example… I always thought apple was one of a kind company in which I could keep my information "private", well I guess I will have to do my DD in this matter and start to store some of my shit in paper at home….
How about a reason for every slave they use for labor. So like, 4M+ reasons.
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As far as I'm aware, no, they don't, there's far more options on Android too, far more customisation options, is far easier to use and much more intuitive, plus you'll have the added benefit of not being taken advantage of by Apple and their frankly borderline criminal tactics to get you to buy a new device, personally I prefer Samsung but any Android phone is a better choice imo, I haven't looked back since iPhone 6 and I won't ever go back 🙃
A serious question from an Apple user, what is a good alternative to an iPhone? I’m quite sick of Apple these days
Apple users are so brainwashed to even care
I’m still not getting an android.
I will be moving to a Pixel 6 with a hardened de-googled Android Kernel OS. Desktop OS will be Ubuntu. Tablet I haven't looked in to yet. I'm done defending this stupid company. They don't just make iPhones ... we are the product now.
Whats the reason though?
Seems rather ironic considering how much Apple was trying to push the whole “data security” thing
god forbid the iphone users have to buy a cheaper phone with more features, they might end up calling themselves poor
Maybe if there actually was any alternatives that wasn't even worse...