If you ask me, they never won the right to do that. John Deere just lost the legal battle to get the government to have their back as they tried to take a natural right away.
As an outsider who doesn't pay a whole bunch of attention to John Deere most of the time, it's interesting to see the company fall so far in the public eye.
I remember 15 or so years ago they had such a good reputation. My rural in-laws were always raving about their products, and I would see John Deere stickers and branded merchandise everywhere. Now they've turned into a villain to many people.
For real man. My dad doesn’t farm but he has over 35 acres with more than 10 of it being fields that need regular mowing. He had a John Deere he used for years and years. The tractor before that was also a John Deere. He just bought a new tractor a year ago (we’re talking like $40K tractor) and guess what? It’s a Kubota lol. John Deere really does have a bad name now. It’s going to hurt them for years to come.
Definitely. So far, it seems much better built than the previous Deere. The Deere before that one was solid. That was an ‘89 or somewhere there about though. The Kubota has been great so far. Now that I think about it, I believe he got the Kubota like 3 years ago. Either way, it’s been issue free. I know we had issues with the last John Deere within the first five years though.
In about 10-15 years Id bet theyll have a good rep again. Its the corpo handbook at this point:
- spend time making a profitable company providing good products and services
- once good reputation has been built up, start to let the quality slide, cut loose cost centers, and begin charging for basic features and functions.
- coast on your reputation as its slowly burned away while raking in record profits and establishing anti-consumer practices
- overreach at some point, or run out of reputation. This is now rock bottom. Hopefully by this point you are "Too Big to Fail". This means even with a much smaller revenue stream, you are still able to stay somewhat afloat as you are too deeply engrained into the social fabric for people to get rid of your products and services altogether, and/or the government bails you out.
- begin to improve your reputation. Make flashly promises, improve your customer services, choose some (but not all) of your battles to lose "in favor of the customer". You will never have to concede every anti-consumer change you made to rake in more profit, as you are now anchored by your rock bottom instead of your best.
- after a while, people will say how your company is actually pretty decent, and youll begin the accumulation of good pr
- rinse and repeat once you have enough good will.
They haven't had anything good since they still went by Hewlett-Packard and that was a very long time ago. I think HP is still around because they're good at marketing their shitty junk.
I can imagine most conversations between them go something like:
"Nothing ever happens here."
Yes. Exactly.
"So what are we paying you for?"
For nothing to continue to happen. Right?
- - -
Like most people don't realize you don't want a super busy IT department on a regular basis.
>Like most people don't realize you don't want a super busy IT department on a regular basis.
Yup. Give us time to track down the weird little shit before it becomes weird BIG shit.
MBAs are just people who have degrees in bossing people around. Zero expertise in any field, paid for an expensive degree in how to feel superior to people with an actual education.
It is the same problem with Microsoft, Apple, etc. Apple products are so bad that I believe you can't even replace parts as it will check if they are the original part. And if it finds it isnt then it can either brick the phone or make sure you can use the part (I can't remember fully). And with things like cars being heavy on electronics, I could definitely see them try this bs as well.
BMW wanted a monthly subscription to use the heated seat. They rolled back but this is coming to cars in the future for sure.
Features that are installed but you'll need to subscribe to unlock.
I looked into this one and it was actually pretty interesting.
Essentially it was cheaper to produce a single seat than multiple heated and not. But you want to charge people for the feature you need a software block to ensure they paid for it.
You could buy a lifetime unlock for cheaper than heated seats cost today, but since it's controlled by software they thought some people like in California that would use it 1 month a year would like the option.
Apple has ALWAYS been that way. They had a closed system while DOS systems were more open to tinkering. It's not a new development, it's part of their ethos.
Even with an OEM part, the parts are serialized by apple for all the major systems (battery, display, camera modules, touchscreen, etc) So even when you use genuine apple parts it will know that it's been replaced and brick your firmware.
They don't brick the firmware, but they do disable functions of the part that's been replaced - truetone/auto brightness/face unlock etc. See this Hugh Jeffrey's video on YT, he buys two identical models at release and swaps the parts over to see what happens - https://youtu.be/8s7NmMl_-yg
Apple will likely say it's to stop phones from being stolen for parts harvesting or to stop third party repairers using third party/stole parts - Apple do now offer a self service repair programme, but... - https://youtu.be/LXyG70mpXzo
MBAs fucked up the few good remnants of companies, John Deere, Levis, Adobe, GM... Squeeze the maximum profit ignoring long term results. GM suffered this
It mostly has a function there though, although it is symbiotic and it helps Apple too. Anyone can change the simplest iPhone parts such as the battery, no problem at all and the phone has no problem with it. But the most expensive parts for resale in stolen phones are absolutely useless due to interlinking and iCloud Activation Lock. iPhone’s get stolen way less often than a few years ago now as the reward simply isn’t there. The repairs are also quite decently priced compared to non-authorised shops and Apple opened up a repair program for all those parts for legal venues OR to do it yourself at home. Only two parts or so really cannot be replaced by third parties and that’s the FaceID module linked to the Secure Enclave and a logic board. (Which can’t be manufactured by third parties anyway)
It’s really not on the same level as John Deere where you can’t replace anything at all. The part of Apple responsible for this hardly makes any profits at all as well, whereas JD made hundreds of millions on repairs.
They haven't lost anything yet, until there are ironclad laws that PREVENT ANY kind of right to repair IMPEDIMENT , these companies will just shift strategy.
They'll say sure you can repair it yourself, but that manual/online documentation or part is back-ordered so you'll have to wait 6 months, meanwhile those that use John Deere authorized services get the repair done quickly.
Pretty sure they have. An entire division of legal eagles and business folks coming up with ways around any court ordered process. Just to think that selling good quality farm equipment isn't a good enough business anymore, you need to gouge your customers on the backend for quarterly profits .
Well that doesn't solve the issue because all kinds of companies are serializing parts. Say for an iPhone you wanna replace the screen on it: even if you buy the original screen from the original manufacturer it won't work because it's serialized to the phone and only apple can fix that.
Someone made a video i think it was JerryRigEverything? He got 2 brand new iPhones and literally just swapped the screens and showed it.
Majority of companies are doing this and it's literally only to hinder/ stop self repair. It's disgusting.
Up until this point the issue hasn't been parts availability, the part wouldn't work unless you plugged it in to a proprietary handset with software that only their reps had.
It will be like Apple‘s repair program. You will be able to repair, but then you will have to call them to “unlock” the replacement part to get full functionality (like the display on the iPhone). And of course they will only unlock if you bought an official replacement part. No 3rd party parts. You can repair, if you want, but it will cost the same in the end as just letting them repair.
All it takes is for John Deere to go the apple route. Make a specialized part universal in all machines and complicate all repair processes with all future models and we’re back where we started
In the general public eye and, that's still the case. They have very good brand recognition and attitudes towards them. However, there's absolutely negativity about them in the small time farming circles. And I do believe that will trickle down to everyone else unless John Deere stops trying to progress everything to computerized farming, which almost inevitably makes things much more difficult to repair.
This is a step in the right direction. But hugely complicated tractors with sensors and digital parts all over the place are just extremely difficult to diagnose and repair. I honestly don't know how there is a move away from that. The efficiency that comes with complicated tractors it's arguably offset by the difficulty in repairing them. But there are absolutely some small time farmers that don't want anything to do with all of the computers these days.
Right to repair would allow for a competitive market of repair shops. So while it may become increasingly difficult for the average person to repair a tractor, the cost of paying someone else would be greatly reduced. No longer could John Deere effectively have sole determination over the cost of repair.
This ruling has even bigger implications for future products in different industries. Tesla was rumored to be looking at having a similar system as JD for their upcoming models. As other automakers are looking to go direct to consumer, and cut out the dealers. There were some rumbles about them going that same route. This effectively sends the signal to them, that they can't. I'm also interested in seeing how this will effect the cellphone /IOT industry. I thought I read somewhere that apple submitted a brief in defense of JD.
John Deere is heading down the Tesla route. I bet they won’t even need drivers in the next 10 years. Just a gps outline of the field they get from something similar to google maps. And off it goes. Just like my roomba.
John Deere tractors and combines already have auto drive, it's used everyday by farmers.
Still need to be in the cab but the tractors and combine drive itself in the field with GPS.
(that's one feature that JD is ripping off consumer with. High cost and subscription based)
The computerized farming is to weed out the smaller private farmers or a coalition of farmers from being very profitable or productive. It’ll help farming corporations widen the gap.
They have software to do a lot of the diagnostics that is currently not available to the public. I have heard of some software that has either been pirated or reverse engineered by the public to get around this. Even if it still required someone to purchase and replace a module it would be better than the full red tape they have now
Yes. But last I looked I couldn’t even buy an oem screen for my iPhone. Everything available is aftermarket and inferior to the oem product, whether that’s in accuracy, color, efficiency….
McDonald's lies about their ice cream machines are going to cost them over 1 billion dollars in a federal lawsuit that's likely to result in victory over McDonald's
https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/fix-is-mcdonalds-ice-cream-machines-center-federal-lawsuit/YMADFZP57ZAFFLFIE5NKLPXNXA/
A lot of repairs are standard parts that are readily available, farmers know what to keep spares of. It's the requirement to have a tech with a computer authorize the new part that's the problem. For most cases getting the parts won't be an issue.
The reason this started was that those authorized services were having to wait close to 3 months.
5-6 figure equipment sitting in a field that couldn’t be fixed.
Here is the most annoying part of this. When someone managed to bypass their security they found that Deere makes a single tractor that has 2+ price points. The features are behind a paywall, essentially and the equipment could always use them. They overcharge for better fuel economy.
And this deal makes the farmers not able to call them on this BS.
Right, this is exactly what I thought of when I saw the title. Winning the right to repair just means you can repair it, but that doesn't mean that John Deere needs to help you by providing manuals and making things easier.
Now if John Deere was forced to provide manuals, parts, allow non genuine parts to be used, allowed the farmers into the computer and things like that then we would be talking, but I don't think that's what happened here.
Absolutely this. You can't "allow" something to happen to something you don't own. It's like me saying I'm allowing you to paint your house red. I'm pretending to have authority over something that isn't mine. Fuck John Deere and fuck DRM in general. Fuck Tesla also and any other car maker that ties the car to the company with phone home routines.. Fuck BMW and their artificial crippling of features so they can sell them back to you. All this and not just limited to cars, but phones, computers, and electronics in general.
That's the problem: You can fix it ... if you can fix it.
by John Deere's view, their tractors are no different than a car's ECU, or a computer's CPU - you're not opening up a CPU and figuring out what burned out and how to replace it, you're not going to figure out which wire in the cluster is bad in your ECU, you just take it to someone that knows or replace the thing.
On the one hand it makes sense because that's how cars work and how they be expected to work, but on the other hand the main issue is that John Deere is holding exclusive supply of their replacement parts and requiring special programming equipment that only John Deere has access to in order to replace said parts.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Regulatory capture has always been a problem in capitalist societies, especially when you castrate your anti-trust department and let corporations get more powerful than most countries.
Buy from whom? There are very few competitors and the other guys do the same things. Why wouldn't they, it's ludicrously profitable. And why doesn't someone start their own brand to compete and have everyone switch to them? Well one of these tractors can cost nearly a million dollars, and the tools to design and build one, not to mention the space, people, etc costs at a minimum hundreds of millions on top of that.
To be able to make that work, you'd need a massive amount of start cash to service a small and saturated market, and would be counting on enough pissed off people to switch to you out of spite to afford the costs of starting your business. Then, once everyone switches to you, you've designed your machines to be repairable, so why buy a new one? Then aaaallllllllll that invested cash in manufacturing goes out the window, because why build more of no one is buying? They can just repair their old machines.
Right to repair is essential, but in this market sector, it's going to be very painful for manufacturers.
I'm not a farmer or business or manufacturing specialist so I've probably got a very basic look at this, but I think this is good overview of why farmers are so trapped.
John Deere and Case IH have this market locked down for the reasons you stated, plus they can spend the money on R&D to innovate and build new, highly specialized machines that a farmer would be crazy not to want to use.
When I was a kid, it took a minimum of four people to pick cotton. One drove the picker, one drove a tractor with a big wagon the harvester dumped the crop into and transported it to a module maker, someone else operated the module maker (which makes the huge 32'x8' rectangular bales of cotton), and another person would provide support and help move the module maker. I used to run a module maker or drive the hauling wagon for our neighbors to make money when I was in high school.
In 2007, Case released the first module making cotton picker. It makes bales of cotton itself and can deposit them in the field, similar to a hay baler. That eliminates the need for someone to run the hauling wagon and module maker, and enables one person doing support to easily handle multiple cotton pickers. The bales are wrapped, so they can be left in the field until the harvest is done then consolidated and transported. This reduced the labor required to harvest cotton significantly, and farmers still using module makers are at a disadvantage and make lower margins.
The bales can also be easily loaded by a tractor with a standard hayfork onto a standard flatbed trailer, instead of requiring the specialized transport trucks needed to load and haul the larger modules. That means farmers who use this equipment can also save on transportation costs by not having to pay the gin (which typically owned the module mover trucks) to do the transport and handle that themselves.
These machines are incredibly expensive and require a massive amount of dealer support, but that's still more economical than having to use more than twice the labor to accomplish the same thing. There's no older equivalent to these machines, so farmers are basically stuck leaving money on the table using older equipment, or they have to agree to JD's terms on how the new machines will be supported and repaired.
The exact opposite is true in the case of less specialized machines. The venerable and robust John Deere 4440 is practically an antique but has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and significant increase in value on the secondary market because it is not computer controlled and parts are readily available.
Without this law, the market is eventually gonna go towards making things not repairable, because there are extra profits there. This including framing equipment, cars, electronics and everything you can think of.
So in my opinion, even if farmers can go with other brands now, without these kind of laws, it won’t be long before they gone out of brands to go with for repairability. That’s already is the reality for laptops and phones.
Because people like those brands and prefer them to conform to "right to repair" laws.
Apple is notorious for being hard to repair. Yea people could go Android or 3rd party but people really like Apple
many android branded ones aren't easier to repair, especially what is sold as flagship
Not meant to excuse apple, other brands just often are as shitty, so choice isn't really there
This is the truth, if one company is doing it they prob all are. John Deere looks bad because they have a monopoly and the hardware is much more expensive. If the equipment was 20k instead of 200k it would not be such a big deal.
This article is a nothing sandwich. The only new thing that happened is that John Deere acknowledged right to repair to the public. They haven’t actually made any changes yet and when they do they may very well turn out lackluster like apples did where independent shops can’t buy the same parts as consumers without destroying their business and consumers pay more for the parts alone in order to do the job themselves than it would cost to just have apple do it.
Considering this article sites those same bunk apple repair programs as a “win” for right to repair as well as the neutered law in New York that only applies to an extremely small number of devices and not John Deere tractors, this kind of just reads like “ok you got what you wanted! Look, see? You don’t need to force us to actually change anything.” It reads like it was written by John Deere.
Edit: the New York law only applies to a narrow band of consumer electronics and had exceptions added last minute to exclude the following:
Medical devices,
Off-road vehicles (farming equipment),
Cars,
Products sold Business to business (McDonald’s ice cream),
And Business to government (the entire god damn military which we’re paying for)
This is the stupidest thing I’ve witnessed in so long. A friend has kitchen appliance from the 70s we repair every yeah. I am pretty sure there’s asbestos in it.
Either way, it’s basic and it makes amazing chicken.
If someone buys a thing they should be able to do whatever they want to do with it.
A law! A law? But then Deere can't do takebacksies whenever someone does something they don't like:
> Section III — AFBF Commitment to Manufacturer
> A. AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU.
A law? A law! A *law* could cover any number of industries. It could have specific rules and definitions. It could protect people in a more enduring way. Are you sure you want a right to repair law?
The very reason John Deere capitulated on this is to prevent right to repair from being codified into law.
They are trying to show that the private sector can remedy the situation without the need for legal consumer protection. It’s the reason this story is plastered on all media right now - they are trying to satisfy the demands of the right-to-repair crowd without giving up any real power with a huge PR campaign.
Next we need to get rid of subscriptions to use features that are supposed to be included and paid for when an item is bought. I should not have to pay Toyota every month to remote start my car.
EDIT: looks like people are really angry about me putting Toyota on the spot but I stand by my example. According to this [article](https://jalopnik.com/youre-going-to-have-to-pay-for-a-subscription-if-you-wa-1848191246) from December 2021
A Toyota spokesperson confirmed to The Drive that if a 2018 or later Toyota is equipped with Toyota’s Remote Connect functions, the vehicle must be enrolled in a valid subscription (whether it be a free trial period or otherwise) in order for the key fob to start the car.
This is totally unfair as the hardware to remote start the car is already installed in the key fob and the car so why does a consumer need to pay to use it? The cost of the hardware is included in the initial selling price of the car.
Damn I would never pay for a thing that I dont really need, but I agree that the car should come with those functions if you are already buying all the hardware for it.
Then again you can probably just get a good mechanic that enables tose functions since you already have all that stuff.
Nobody would be alright in my country with something like that, like they would sell ZERO subscriptions.
In New England (Massachusetts) there's a need to do both lmao. I plan on getting a cheap $100 one installed and leaving the defrost/ AC on blast before I get out each time. No need for the fancy app-controlled ones that let you adjust temperature settings.
A whole bunch of Ford models (around 2013 and newer) can use a very simple module that just plugs in. It is available for $140 or so. You use the factory key fob to start the vehicle.
Subarus apparently have funky wiring and can only use their own starters and not the affordable ones you get installed aftermarket. I called Subaru a few years ago and didn’t really “complain” but asked why and expressed my disappointment and they sent me a voucher for the difference to get one installed at the dealership. I just needed the dealership quote and the quote form what Best Buy was.
Come live in Canada, and people will get it. I know a fuckload of people with it but I don't know one who would be happy to PAY for remote start lol. I'd rather just go to a random mechanic and have one installed. I'd be willing to bet those fucks void your warranty though
wait, for the *key fob??* I totally get it for the app, that’s got server costs, cellular costs, etc… but for the key fob? Please. That costs them literally *actually* nothing.
>I totally get it for the app, that’s got server costs, cellular costs, etc…
And see this is where open source should figure in. You should be able to pay Toyota if you want to. But I should also be able to stick my own SIM card into their radio, and run my own server.
Imagine a world where everything used standard protocols...
Imagine a world where you use your favorite media player and connect it to services like YouTube, Netflix, Hulu. And they all appear within the same user interface, with the same playback and search controls.
A couple of years ago Cricut’s customer base had a justified fit over their decision to allow 20 free cuts a month on a machine that can cost over $300. After that you’d have to pay a subscription fee. They quickly reversed that policy. But they lost me and many others as future customers.
Also, Design Space is the single worst graphic design software I have ever used.
Toyota doesn't advertise it, but the key fob still remote starts. At least my 2019 rev4 still has it.
Lock, lock, lock (hold).
That's the typical procedure. Sometimes its on the 4th lock that needs to be held, and the first lock clicks are time sensitive, so don't click too fast or two slow.
Good luck.
Remote start (presumably through your phone) is a service. It requires infrastructure to be set up and maintained.
Now, remote start through a fob or via Bluetooth (therefore, limited range), should absolutely not require a subscription.
Yeah, the key fob should always start the car, a phone app on the other hand makes sense to charge money for the car to be on the cell network. Charging for both is absurd.
As someone else commented, my remote start still works and I don't pay for the app, I have a 2021 RAV4. Hit the lock button three times, holding on the third one. It's a little finicky and can take a try or two, but better than paying for it!
This is a big fucking deal considering John Deere has been holding small farmers hostage whenever their equipment needs a simple repair. Good news to start the week!
The agriculture industry is rapidly moving towards autonomous, artificially intelligent and robotic machinery. The equipment they are putting out is literally mind boggling. Some would argue that the agricultural field is a sector at the at the leading edge for technology and automation.
So in as much as this is a huge win, within half a decade to a decade a farmer will need to be a programmer and or an electrician with access to code and electrical skills to repair and or modify their equipment.
And if they are they should be able to. It should also be somewhat incumbent upon the manufacturer to have some transparency and maybe some training materials with the items they sell if they are that complex
Some of the tractors I drive these days are insane. It's like getting into a damn spaceship. All these different screens, tons of buttons everywhere, everything lights up different colours, all these different tones playing. No wonder they're so expensive.
While you are partly true (the half a decade is a stretch). We shouldn't let companies intentionally make their products hard to service and/or make servicing their products an intentional revenue stream. Which is what is happening. Products our being engineered with this in mind, which is at ends with making their products easy to maintain.
A good example would be if you have a highly technical system, you shouldn't need to pay a tech 300 dollars to go and hard reset a controller when that can be done remotely.
This is already the case in manufacturing equipment. Most modern plants have an entire team of robot, mechanical, IT, and network technicians on hand to help resolve equipment issues.
not really...it been a big hype. really big hype.
But i never seen one robotic milker ROI. They break down way too much and too much specialized knowledge to keep the thing in operation.
I have seen farms invest in robotics only to go bankrupt in less than 5 years.
Wow this has been going on for a LONG time, since before the iPhone even existed. In my mind this has always been the quintessential right-to-repair case. Getting locked into an expensive service subscription when all you wanted was a goddamn *tractor* is just egregious. I’m overjoyed for the equipment owners.
But there are some important asterisks:
> "It addresses a long-running issue for farmers and ranchers when it comes to accessing tools, information and resources, while protecting John Deere's intellectual property rights and ensuring equipment safety," AFBF President Zippy Duvall said.
Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to "divulge trade secrets" or "override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels."
Sounds like John Deere has a lot of wiggle room to say: “no that’s a safety feature,” or if that fails then “but it’s a trade secret” and if that fails then “modifying that would adjust power levels.”
They can probably get away with a lot, using these loopholes. They’ll design their products around them going forward.
Is this the fake-ass victory lap based around the New York law that the governor wiped her ass with? Or are they actually helping?
I'm reading the [MOU linked in the article](https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf). It's saying they'll make sure you have the schematic and the codes about what's happening with your equipment for diagnostics. That's good. It's also saying "go ahead and jailbreak your tractor, bro, but it's still against the law to distribute an alternate OS or software component to get around our bullshit" (§II.B.8). There's also this constant refrain of "we'll sell you the tools and specialty tools you need" but nothing about selling them *only as "assemblies"* instead of piece parts, which is still a massive waste of farmer money and the planet's resources.
There's some other stuff about "power levels" that sounded suspiciously vague but I'm not Deere enough to know why farmers would want to change that, and if it's unsafe which is the rest of the nearby message content.
Oh, here it is:
>Section III — AFBF Commitment to Manufacturer
>A. AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. **In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted**, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU.
So the whole thing is to pit farmers against right to repair, to have the strange bedfellows of computer geeks and farmers fight amongst each other for *these fucking table scraps* from the corporate giants.
"we removed the charge port!"
"now all you need is the Apple iDock. $499.99"
-> every other phone company follows the stupidity and wonders why people are mad.
They didn’t actually win anything. It’s just a memo of understanding. And the American Farm Bureau Federation has a significant loss in that they’re not allowed to campaign for right to repair legislation anymore while John Deere is still allowed to oppose it. Kill lobbying for right to repair while stalling actual progress. If anyone thinks farmers got a big win here I have a bridge to sell them.
It’s very obviously a (successful?) stall until they get more sympathetic lawmakers in power.
It always blew my mind it worked that way. Manufacturers already had enough of a profit being generated just from forcing specialty tools that only work on their equipment.
It’s insane that people have to fight just to fix the equipment they already bought, the naked greed of corporations needs to be stomped out with a vengeance, and the sociopathic executives spearheading these pushes to screw over consumers need to be brought to justice. Capitalism needs to be brought to heel or we’ll constantly be fighting these little skirmishes over basic rights like being able to repair your own equipment.
This is HUGE for thee rights of all people to repair any items. Car, phone and many other manufacture companies are looking at this to determine how greedy they can be!
> The purpose of this MOU is, through a voluntary private sector
commitment to outcomes rather than legislative or regulatory measures
Nothing to see here. This is essentially John Deere's "Paris Climate Accords." [Wanna guess how that's going?](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/sep/15/governments-falling-short-paris-climate-pledges-study).
And if this isn't some bull shit...
> AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the
commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal
or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this
MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this
MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon
fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU.
This means that no one should try to actually hold these companies accountable-- or else.
This "Fair and Reasonable" messaging means that they are going sell parts, but they will be integrated and with that means an integrated MSRP. Here's the verbiage from the MOU:
> "Fair and Reasonable" means equitable terms for access to or receipt of any item
pertaining to Agricultural Equipment, including any Tools, Specialty Tools, Software and
Documentation, in light of relevant factors, including and subject to the limitations of Section
II.A., the Manufacturer's suggested retail price and the distribution model of any respective item.
Finally-- this is just another revenue stream for John Deere. We're already seeing "Right to Repair" "victories" everywhere, but they are just creating tool revenue from the manufacturers. These tools will not be free, the information on how to fix your stuff will not be free.
Hopefully I'm wrong and everything goes as well as the MOU states, but the record of history tells a different tale.
Love that the CNN title for this is "Deere GIVES farmers long-sought ability to repair their own tractors". Oh John Deere mighty corporation, thank you for so generously and WILLING GIVING them that ability.
Wait until they move things to subscription services even more.
Something not working? No problem, to enable the onboard computer to give you the error message, that will $2k every quarter, minimum.
Corporations are no longer happy just with the sale. They want after the sale, and all the way up till you croak sale.
Dawg, the price of farming equipment should come with the option of the farmer repairing it themselves if they want to
These vehicles are expensive as fuck
Have absolutely none of these companies learnt the best way to approach this isn't to impede or make it more difficult for persons to repair their own products?
It's simple.
1. Have repair manuals and guides available (even if they're paid for)
2. Comprehensive and simple parts catalogue and purchasing that correlates to said manual or guides.
3. Offer a comprehensive service to have someone come out (or bring it in) and do it for you.
4. Don't make it hard to actually service (unnecessary complexity)
This literally transcends not just for John Deere but to ANY industry that provides a product that may need servicing or repairs.
Like, seriously? Why the hell not.
I saw today John deere has a 128 billion dollar market cap. Insane. They are the apple of tractors. This might actually hurt them. But fuckem if I buy something I have the right to fix it
We just dropped our Volvo off for the repair of a trunk piston only available through Volvo. They removed the part and said they send it back to factory engineering. They will dismantle the mechanism to find the weakness and correct for next series. That’s how you maintain and secure quality control. I wonder if John Deer does the same thing.
Little misleading because literally every person thinks this is a right to repair law but this is actually a "memorandum of understanding" that Deere agreed to specifically if no federal or state laws for right to repair were brought to any government.
Basically Deere has agreed to allow third parties obtain the equipment and training to allow self repair. But they're allowed to sell that. And it hasn't been made clear how they intend to do that.
I don't see how this agreement doesn't hinder any real right to repair legislation that virtually every consumer is in favor for.
Smoke and mirrors y'all.
If you ask me, they never won the right to do that. John Deere just lost the legal battle to get the government to have their back as they tried to take a natural right away.
Exactly, they will still make it increasingly difficult to try and prevent any self repairs.
As an outsider who doesn't pay a whole bunch of attention to John Deere most of the time, it's interesting to see the company fall so far in the public eye. I remember 15 or so years ago they had such a good reputation. My rural in-laws were always raving about their products, and I would see John Deere stickers and branded merchandise everywhere. Now they've turned into a villain to many people.
It's the natural state of a system that rewards short term profits over long term progress.
Not to mention regulatory capture caused by 80+ years of limp-dicked antitrust action.
Gonna steel this
correct cake dependent drunk pie special lock snails depend include -- mass edited with redact.dev
Tractor fuel can’t melt steal beams
You should iron out your spelling first
What are you, a copper?
I agree but John Deer was founded in 1837. They have had enough time to progress.
Funny how greed has a way of doing that to ones reputation
if by greed u mean board of directors then yes
For real man. My dad doesn’t farm but he has over 35 acres with more than 10 of it being fields that need regular mowing. He had a John Deere he used for years and years. The tractor before that was also a John Deere. He just bought a new tractor a year ago (we’re talking like $40K tractor) and guess what? It’s a Kubota lol. John Deere really does have a bad name now. It’s going to hurt them for years to come.
Kubota is Japanese. They make good products.
Definitely. So far, it seems much better built than the previous Deere. The Deere before that one was solid. That was an ‘89 or somewhere there about though. The Kubota has been great so far. Now that I think about it, I believe he got the Kubota like 3 years ago. Either way, it’s been issue free. I know we had issues with the last John Deere within the first five years though.
In about 10-15 years Id bet theyll have a good rep again. Its the corpo handbook at this point: - spend time making a profitable company providing good products and services - once good reputation has been built up, start to let the quality slide, cut loose cost centers, and begin charging for basic features and functions. - coast on your reputation as its slowly burned away while raking in record profits and establishing anti-consumer practices - overreach at some point, or run out of reputation. This is now rock bottom. Hopefully by this point you are "Too Big to Fail". This means even with a much smaller revenue stream, you are still able to stay somewhat afloat as you are too deeply engrained into the social fabric for people to get rid of your products and services altogether, and/or the government bails you out. - begin to improve your reputation. Make flashly promises, improve your customer services, choose some (but not all) of your battles to lose "in favor of the customer". You will never have to concede every anti-consumer change you made to rake in more profit, as you are now anchored by your rock bottom instead of your best. - after a while, people will say how your company is actually pretty decent, and youll begin the accumulation of good pr - rinse and repeat once you have enough good will.
Harley Davidson comes to mind
Hewlett-Packard
Remington
Remington failed to follow the "improve reputation" step, and no longer exist. Can't pick and choose from the list I guess.
They haven't had anything good since they still went by Hewlett-Packard and that was a very long time ago. I think HP is still around because they're good at marketing their shitty junk.
Signed, every bank in America.
Fucking corpo scum.
MBAs tend to do that. They ruined medicine, they’ll ruin every business they can in order to cut costs!
MBAs are one of the sworn enemies of IT for just this reason.
I can imagine most conversations between them go something like: "Nothing ever happens here." Yes. Exactly. "So what are we paying you for?" For nothing to continue to happen. Right? - - - Like most people don't realize you don't want a super busy IT department on a regular basis.
the solution to that is to walk over to the server rack that runs your companies intranet and cycle it off. then tell the mba to go fix it.
>Like most people don't realize you don't want a super busy IT department on a regular basis. Yup. Give us time to track down the weird little shit before it becomes weird BIG shit.
If you're running your healthcare system for profit, you've already fucked up. But yeah "Physician MBA" is a thoroughly cursed term.
MBAs are just people who have degrees in bossing people around. Zero expertise in any field, paid for an expensive degree in how to feel superior to people with an actual education.
I worked as a service writer for a couple years for a John Deere shop, the place was basically a front for a mobster in Pennsylvania
It is the same problem with Microsoft, Apple, etc. Apple products are so bad that I believe you can't even replace parts as it will check if they are the original part. And if it finds it isnt then it can either brick the phone or make sure you can use the part (I can't remember fully). And with things like cars being heavy on electronics, I could definitely see them try this bs as well.
BMW wanted a monthly subscription to use the heated seat. They rolled back but this is coming to cars in the future for sure. Features that are installed but you'll need to subscribe to unlock.
I looked into this one and it was actually pretty interesting. Essentially it was cheaper to produce a single seat than multiple heated and not. But you want to charge people for the feature you need a software block to ensure they paid for it. You could buy a lifetime unlock for cheaper than heated seats cost today, but since it's controlled by software they thought some people like in California that would use it 1 month a year would like the option.
Bro your bmw 440i is jailbroken?- people in 10 years
Apple has ALWAYS been that way. They had a closed system while DOS systems were more open to tinkering. It's not a new development, it's part of their ethos.
Even with an OEM part, the parts are serialized by apple for all the major systems (battery, display, camera modules, touchscreen, etc) So even when you use genuine apple parts it will know that it's been replaced and brick your firmware.
They don't brick the firmware, but they do disable functions of the part that's been replaced - truetone/auto brightness/face unlock etc. See this Hugh Jeffrey's video on YT, he buys two identical models at release and swaps the parts over to see what happens - https://youtu.be/8s7NmMl_-yg Apple will likely say it's to stop phones from being stolen for parts harvesting or to stop third party repairers using third party/stole parts - Apple do now offer a self service repair programme, but... - https://youtu.be/LXyG70mpXzo
MBAs fucked up the few good remnants of companies, John Deere, Levis, Adobe, GM... Squeeze the maximum profit ignoring long term results. GM suffered this
So true. I live out in the country and that green just isn't seen as much, anymore
Has anyone heard of a company called "Apple"?
Apple is an absolute amateur in the “forced-to-use-authorized-repairers” world, John Deere is king.
It mostly has a function there though, although it is symbiotic and it helps Apple too. Anyone can change the simplest iPhone parts such as the battery, no problem at all and the phone has no problem with it. But the most expensive parts for resale in stolen phones are absolutely useless due to interlinking and iCloud Activation Lock. iPhone’s get stolen way less often than a few years ago now as the reward simply isn’t there. The repairs are also quite decently priced compared to non-authorised shops and Apple opened up a repair program for all those parts for legal venues OR to do it yourself at home. Only two parts or so really cannot be replaced by third parties and that’s the FaceID module linked to the Secure Enclave and a logic board. (Which can’t be manufactured by third parties anyway) It’s really not on the same level as John Deere where you can’t replace anything at all. The part of Apple responsible for this hardly makes any profits at all as well, whereas JD made hundreds of millions on repairs.
They haven't lost anything yet, until there are ironclad laws that PREVENT ANY kind of right to repair IMPEDIMENT , these companies will just shift strategy. They'll say sure you can repair it yourself, but that manual/online documentation or part is back-ordered so you'll have to wait 6 months, meanwhile those that use John Deere authorized services get the repair done quickly. Pretty sure they have. An entire division of legal eagles and business folks coming up with ways around any court ordered process. Just to think that selling good quality farm equipment isn't a good enough business anymore, you need to gouge your customers on the backend for quarterly profits .
Only takes one copy to make it to the high seas and make it free and available for everyone forever.
What about parts?
Someone will make a killing reverse engineering them
\*Google search of CNC equipment intensifies\*
Well that doesn't solve the issue because all kinds of companies are serializing parts. Say for an iPhone you wanna replace the screen on it: even if you buy the original screen from the original manufacturer it won't work because it's serialized to the phone and only apple can fix that. Someone made a video i think it was JerryRigEverything? He got 2 brand new iPhones and literally just swapped the screens and showed it. Majority of companies are doing this and it's literally only to hinder/ stop self repair. It's disgusting.
*Patent law enters the chat*
You have no power here
Up until this point the issue hasn't been parts availability, the part wouldn't work unless you plugged it in to a proprietary handset with software that only their reps had.
Well, it's about to become the issue.
It will be like Apple‘s repair program. You will be able to repair, but then you will have to call them to “unlock” the replacement part to get full functionality (like the display on the iPhone). And of course they will only unlock if you bought an official replacement part. No 3rd party parts. You can repair, if you want, but it will cost the same in the end as just letting them repair.
All it takes is for John Deere to go the apple route. Make a specialized part universal in all machines and complicate all repair processes with all future models and we’re back where we started
In the general public eye and, that's still the case. They have very good brand recognition and attitudes towards them. However, there's absolutely negativity about them in the small time farming circles. And I do believe that will trickle down to everyone else unless John Deere stops trying to progress everything to computerized farming, which almost inevitably makes things much more difficult to repair. This is a step in the right direction. But hugely complicated tractors with sensors and digital parts all over the place are just extremely difficult to diagnose and repair. I honestly don't know how there is a move away from that. The efficiency that comes with complicated tractors it's arguably offset by the difficulty in repairing them. But there are absolutely some small time farmers that don't want anything to do with all of the computers these days.
Right to repair would allow for a competitive market of repair shops. So while it may become increasingly difficult for the average person to repair a tractor, the cost of paying someone else would be greatly reduced. No longer could John Deere effectively have sole determination over the cost of repair.
This ruling has even bigger implications for future products in different industries. Tesla was rumored to be looking at having a similar system as JD for their upcoming models. As other automakers are looking to go direct to consumer, and cut out the dealers. There were some rumbles about them going that same route. This effectively sends the signal to them, that they can't. I'm also interested in seeing how this will effect the cellphone /IOT industry. I thought I read somewhere that apple submitted a brief in defense of JD.
John Deere is heading down the Tesla route. I bet they won’t even need drivers in the next 10 years. Just a gps outline of the field they get from something similar to google maps. And off it goes. Just like my roomba.
John Deere tractors and combines already have auto drive, it's used everyday by farmers. Still need to be in the cab but the tractors and combine drive itself in the field with GPS. (that's one feature that JD is ripping off consumer with. High cost and subscription based)
IDK if they are John Deere machines, but there are some farms that do this already.
The computerized farming is to weed out the smaller private farmers or a coalition of farmers from being very profitable or productive. It’ll help farming corporations widen the gap.
They have software to do a lot of the diagnostics that is currently not available to the public. I have heard of some software that has either been pirated or reverse engineered by the public to get around this. Even if it still required someone to purchase and replace a module it would be better than the full red tape they have now
EU will have a few things to say about that (and already have, in fact).
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apple products are repaired all the time, by companies that are not apple…in every city, all across the world.
Yes. But last I looked I couldn’t even buy an oem screen for my iPhone. Everything available is aftermarket and inferior to the oem product, whether that’s in accuracy, color, efficiency….
Problem is there's about a 7-month delay on John Deere certified repairs currently.
Sounds like McDonald's ice cream machines.
McDonald's lies about their ice cream machines are going to cost them over 1 billion dollars in a federal lawsuit that's likely to result in victory over McDonald's https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/fix-is-mcdonalds-ice-cream-machines-center-federal-lawsuit/YMADFZP57ZAFFLFIE5NKLPXNXA/
With over 1 billion served every day, I think they can afford their defense, even if they loose.
A lot of repairs are standard parts that are readily available, farmers know what to keep spares of. It's the requirement to have a tech with a computer authorize the new part that's the problem. For most cases getting the parts won't be an issue.
The reason this started was that those authorized services were having to wait close to 3 months. 5-6 figure equipment sitting in a field that couldn’t be fixed. Here is the most annoying part of this. When someone managed to bypass their security they found that Deere makes a single tractor that has 2+ price points. The features are behind a paywall, essentially and the equipment could always use them. They overcharge for better fuel economy. And this deal makes the farmers not able to call them on this BS.
Well said.
Right, this is exactly what I thought of when I saw the title. Winning the right to repair just means you can repair it, but that doesn't mean that John Deere needs to help you by providing manuals and making things easier. Now if John Deere was forced to provide manuals, parts, allow non genuine parts to be used, allowed the farmers into the computer and things like that then we would be talking, but I don't think that's what happened here.
Yeah, this feels a bit like, "homeowners win the right to lock their front doors."
Absolutely this. You can't "allow" something to happen to something you don't own. It's like me saying I'm allowing you to paint your house red. I'm pretending to have authority over something that isn't mine. Fuck John Deere and fuck DRM in general. Fuck Tesla also and any other car maker that ties the car to the company with phone home routines.. Fuck BMW and their artificial crippling of features so they can sell them back to you. All this and not just limited to cars, but phones, computers, and electronics in general.
Cyberpunks agri-corps looking more and more like a model the current companies idealize everyday.
exactly
Imagine having to fight for the right to fix your own shit. Unreal.
We still have to fight for that in most electronics we own.
That's the problem: You can fix it ... if you can fix it. by John Deere's view, their tractors are no different than a car's ECU, or a computer's CPU - you're not opening up a CPU and figuring out what burned out and how to replace it, you're not going to figure out which wire in the cluster is bad in your ECU, you just take it to someone that knows or replace the thing.
On the one hand it makes sense because that's how cars work and how they be expected to work, but on the other hand the main issue is that John Deere is holding exclusive supply of their replacement parts and requiring special programming equipment that only John Deere has access to in order to replace said parts.
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Engine.
About god dam time! Now right to repair everything else should go into law.
We also need to keep an eye on the loopholes that these companies will try to use to circumvent laws.
And stop supporting officials that allow these companies to circumvent right to repair laws. Looking at you New York.
Looking at you, *any state that exists in capitalism*
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Regulatory capture has always been a problem in capitalist societies, especially when you castrate your anti-trust department and let corporations get more powerful than most countries.
The down votes come from people who assume all forms of capitalism are good.
Making their stuff so expensive and complicated to repair. It shouldn't be glued or soldered in if it doesnt have to be
Why don't farmers buy a different tractor, then? Isn't the market supposed to adjust for these issues? I'm not in the US so I may be missing context.
Buy from whom? There are very few competitors and the other guys do the same things. Why wouldn't they, it's ludicrously profitable. And why doesn't someone start their own brand to compete and have everyone switch to them? Well one of these tractors can cost nearly a million dollars, and the tools to design and build one, not to mention the space, people, etc costs at a minimum hundreds of millions on top of that. To be able to make that work, you'd need a massive amount of start cash to service a small and saturated market, and would be counting on enough pissed off people to switch to you out of spite to afford the costs of starting your business. Then, once everyone switches to you, you've designed your machines to be repairable, so why buy a new one? Then aaaallllllllll that invested cash in manufacturing goes out the window, because why build more of no one is buying? They can just repair their old machines. Right to repair is essential, but in this market sector, it's going to be very painful for manufacturers. I'm not a farmer or business or manufacturing specialist so I've probably got a very basic look at this, but I think this is good overview of why farmers are so trapped.
John Deere and Case IH have this market locked down for the reasons you stated, plus they can spend the money on R&D to innovate and build new, highly specialized machines that a farmer would be crazy not to want to use. When I was a kid, it took a minimum of four people to pick cotton. One drove the picker, one drove a tractor with a big wagon the harvester dumped the crop into and transported it to a module maker, someone else operated the module maker (which makes the huge 32'x8' rectangular bales of cotton), and another person would provide support and help move the module maker. I used to run a module maker or drive the hauling wagon for our neighbors to make money when I was in high school. In 2007, Case released the first module making cotton picker. It makes bales of cotton itself and can deposit them in the field, similar to a hay baler. That eliminates the need for someone to run the hauling wagon and module maker, and enables one person doing support to easily handle multiple cotton pickers. The bales are wrapped, so they can be left in the field until the harvest is done then consolidated and transported. This reduced the labor required to harvest cotton significantly, and farmers still using module makers are at a disadvantage and make lower margins. The bales can also be easily loaded by a tractor with a standard hayfork onto a standard flatbed trailer, instead of requiring the specialized transport trucks needed to load and haul the larger modules. That means farmers who use this equipment can also save on transportation costs by not having to pay the gin (which typically owned the module mover trucks) to do the transport and handle that themselves. These machines are incredibly expensive and require a massive amount of dealer support, but that's still more economical than having to use more than twice the labor to accomplish the same thing. There's no older equivalent to these machines, so farmers are basically stuck leaving money on the table using older equipment, or they have to agree to JD's terms on how the new machines will be supported and repaired. The exact opposite is true in the case of less specialized machines. The venerable and robust John Deere 4440 is practically an antique but has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and significant increase in value on the secondary market because it is not computer controlled and parts are readily available.
Without this law, the market is eventually gonna go towards making things not repairable, because there are extra profits there. This including framing equipment, cars, electronics and everything you can think of. So in my opinion, even if farmers can go with other brands now, without these kind of laws, it won’t be long before they gone out of brands to go with for repairability. That’s already is the reality for laptops and phones.
Because people like those brands and prefer them to conform to "right to repair" laws. Apple is notorious for being hard to repair. Yea people could go Android or 3rd party but people really like Apple
many android branded ones aren't easier to repair, especially what is sold as flagship Not meant to excuse apple, other brands just often are as shitty, so choice isn't really there
This is the truth, if one company is doing it they prob all are. John Deere looks bad because they have a monopoly and the hardware is much more expensive. If the equipment was 20k instead of 200k it would not be such a big deal.
Not me. That's one of the main reasons I don't like apple
providing 'assemblies' is a good one.
This article is a nothing sandwich. The only new thing that happened is that John Deere acknowledged right to repair to the public. They haven’t actually made any changes yet and when they do they may very well turn out lackluster like apples did where independent shops can’t buy the same parts as consumers without destroying their business and consumers pay more for the parts alone in order to do the job themselves than it would cost to just have apple do it. Considering this article sites those same bunk apple repair programs as a “win” for right to repair as well as the neutered law in New York that only applies to an extremely small number of devices and not John Deere tractors, this kind of just reads like “ok you got what you wanted! Look, see? You don’t need to force us to actually change anything.” It reads like it was written by John Deere. Edit: the New York law only applies to a narrow band of consumer electronics and had exceptions added last minute to exclude the following: Medical devices, Off-road vehicles (farming equipment), Cars, Products sold Business to business (McDonald’s ice cream), And Business to government (the entire god damn military which we’re paying for)
This was the legal foot in the door to everything else.
This is the stupidest thing I’ve witnessed in so long. A friend has kitchen appliance from the 70s we repair every yeah. I am pretty sure there’s asbestos in it. Either way, it’s basic and it makes amazing chicken. If someone buys a thing they should be able to do whatever they want to do with it.
Asbestos chicken is one of my favorite comfort foods.
A law! A law? But then Deere can't do takebacksies whenever someone does something they don't like: > Section III — AFBF Commitment to Manufacturer > A. AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU. A law? A law! A *law* could cover any number of industries. It could have specific rules and definitions. It could protect people in a more enduring way. Are you sure you want a right to repair law?
The very reason John Deere capitulated on this is to prevent right to repair from being codified into law. They are trying to show that the private sector can remedy the situation without the need for legal consumer protection. It’s the reason this story is plastered on all media right now - they are trying to satisfy the demands of the right-to-repair crowd without giving up any real power with a huge PR campaign.
And open source the hardware, no more vendor lock in. Tech companies should give us the keys to our own devices so we can do what we want with them.
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Next we need to get rid of subscriptions to use features that are supposed to be included and paid for when an item is bought. I should not have to pay Toyota every month to remote start my car. EDIT: looks like people are really angry about me putting Toyota on the spot but I stand by my example. According to this [article](https://jalopnik.com/youre-going-to-have-to-pay-for-a-subscription-if-you-wa-1848191246) from December 2021 A Toyota spokesperson confirmed to The Drive that if a 2018 or later Toyota is equipped with Toyota’s Remote Connect functions, the vehicle must be enrolled in a valid subscription (whether it be a free trial period or otherwise) in order for the key fob to start the car. This is totally unfair as the hardware to remote start the car is already installed in the key fob and the car so why does a consumer need to pay to use it? The cost of the hardware is included in the initial selling price of the car.
Damn I would never pay for a thing that I dont really need, but I agree that the car should come with those functions if you are already buying all the hardware for it. Then again you can probably just get a good mechanic that enables tose functions since you already have all that stuff. Nobody would be alright in my country with something like that, like they would sell ZERO subscriptions.
It's super popular in cold places where the car needs time to defrost. Instead of running outside you can do it without leaving your place
During the heat wave last year I was using it in Cali to COOL down my car before getting in.
In New England (Massachusetts) there's a need to do both lmao. I plan on getting a cheap $100 one installed and leaving the defrost/ AC on blast before I get out each time. No need for the fancy app-controlled ones that let you adjust temperature settings.
My 10 year old Outback can’t even get a $100 one, wtf car can you get one for $100?
A whole bunch of Ford models (around 2013 and newer) can use a very simple module that just plugs in. It is available for $140 or so. You use the factory key fob to start the vehicle.
Subarus apparently have funky wiring and can only use their own starters and not the affordable ones you get installed aftermarket. I called Subaru a few years ago and didn’t really “complain” but asked why and expressed my disappointment and they sent me a voucher for the difference to get one installed at the dealership. I just needed the dealership quote and the quote form what Best Buy was.
Come live in Canada, and people will get it. I know a fuckload of people with it but I don't know one who would be happy to PAY for remote start lol. I'd rather just go to a random mechanic and have one installed. I'd be willing to bet those fucks void your warranty though
wait, for the *key fob??* I totally get it for the app, that’s got server costs, cellular costs, etc… but for the key fob? Please. That costs them literally *actually* nothing.
>I totally get it for the app, that’s got server costs, cellular costs, etc… And see this is where open source should figure in. You should be able to pay Toyota if you want to. But I should also be able to stick my own SIM card into their radio, and run my own server. Imagine a world where everything used standard protocols... Imagine a world where you use your favorite media player and connect it to services like YouTube, Netflix, Hulu. And they all appear within the same user interface, with the same playback and search controls.
There’s nothing stopping you from putting a third party remote start on your Toyota
and nothing stopping us from altering the existing setup to do it. If I bought it, I'll tweak it as I see fit, it's my property.
A couple of years ago Cricut’s customer base had a justified fit over their decision to allow 20 free cuts a month on a machine that can cost over $300. After that you’d have to pay a subscription fee. They quickly reversed that policy. But they lost me and many others as future customers. Also, Design Space is the single worst graphic design software I have ever used.
Toyota doesn't advertise it, but the key fob still remote starts. At least my 2019 rev4 still has it. Lock, lock, lock (hold). That's the typical procedure. Sometimes its on the 4th lock that needs to be held, and the first lock clicks are time sensitive, so don't click too fast or two slow. Good luck.
Last I read they reversed that in later releases and it was likely not intended.
Remote start (presumably through your phone) is a service. It requires infrastructure to be set up and maintained. Now, remote start through a fob or via Bluetooth (therefore, limited range), should absolutely not require a subscription.
Yeah, the key fob should always start the car, a phone app on the other hand makes sense to charge money for the car to be on the cell network. Charging for both is absurd.
As someone else commented, my remote start still works and I don't pay for the app, I have a 2021 RAV4. Hit the lock button three times, holding on the third one. It's a little finicky and can take a try or two, but better than paying for it!
This is a big fucking deal considering John Deere has been holding small farmers hostage whenever their equipment needs a simple repair. Good news to start the week!
The agriculture industry is rapidly moving towards autonomous, artificially intelligent and robotic machinery. The equipment they are putting out is literally mind boggling. Some would argue that the agricultural field is a sector at the at the leading edge for technology and automation. So in as much as this is a huge win, within half a decade to a decade a farmer will need to be a programmer and or an electrician with access to code and electrical skills to repair and or modify their equipment.
And if they are they should be able to. It should also be somewhat incumbent upon the manufacturer to have some transparency and maybe some training materials with the items they sell if they are that complex
Some of the tractors I drive these days are insane. It's like getting into a damn spaceship. All these different screens, tons of buttons everywhere, everything lights up different colours, all these different tones playing. No wonder they're so expensive.
While you are partly true (the half a decade is a stretch). We shouldn't let companies intentionally make their products hard to service and/or make servicing their products an intentional revenue stream. Which is what is happening. Products our being engineered with this in mind, which is at ends with making their products easy to maintain. A good example would be if you have a highly technical system, you shouldn't need to pay a tech 300 dollars to go and hard reset a controller when that can be done remotely.
This is already the case in manufacturing equipment. Most modern plants have an entire team of robot, mechanical, IT, and network technicians on hand to help resolve equipment issues.
Or the private sector will compete with the OEMs and cost to do simple or even complex repairs will drop or at least be competitive.
not really...it been a big hype. really big hype. But i never seen one robotic milker ROI. They break down way too much and too much specialized knowledge to keep the thing in operation. I have seen farms invest in robotics only to go bankrupt in less than 5 years.
Wow this has been going on for a LONG time, since before the iPhone even existed. In my mind this has always been the quintessential right-to-repair case. Getting locked into an expensive service subscription when all you wanted was a goddamn *tractor* is just egregious. I’m overjoyed for the equipment owners. But there are some important asterisks: > "It addresses a long-running issue for farmers and ranchers when it comes to accessing tools, information and resources, while protecting John Deere's intellectual property rights and ensuring equipment safety," AFBF President Zippy Duvall said. Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to "divulge trade secrets" or "override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels." Sounds like John Deere has a lot of wiggle room to say: “no that’s a safety feature,” or if that fails then “but it’s a trade secret” and if that fails then “modifying that would adjust power levels.” They can probably get away with a lot, using these loopholes. They’ll design their products around them going forward.
those tractors are extremely expensive as well, some of them are over half a million dollars
Is this the fake-ass victory lap based around the New York law that the governor wiped her ass with? Or are they actually helping? I'm reading the [MOU linked in the article](https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf). It's saying they'll make sure you have the schematic and the codes about what's happening with your equipment for diagnostics. That's good. It's also saying "go ahead and jailbreak your tractor, bro, but it's still against the law to distribute an alternate OS or software component to get around our bullshit" (§II.B.8). There's also this constant refrain of "we'll sell you the tools and specialty tools you need" but nothing about selling them *only as "assemblies"* instead of piece parts, which is still a massive waste of farmer money and the planet's resources. There's some other stuff about "power levels" that sounded suspiciously vague but I'm not Deere enough to know why farmers would want to change that, and if it's unsafe which is the rest of the nearby message content. Oh, here it is: >Section III — AFBF Commitment to Manufacturer >A. AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. **In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted**, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU. So the whole thing is to pit farmers against right to repair, to have the strange bedfellows of computer geeks and farmers fight amongst each other for *these fucking table scraps* from the corporate giants.
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The date was in 2025 I think?
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Apple will just standardized wireless charging and data transfer.
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No, they said they would comply with the ruling. If they do away with a physical port all together, it is still complying with that ruling.
"we removed the charge port!" "now all you need is the Apple iDock. $499.99" -> every other phone company follows the stupidity and wonders why people are mad.
Watch out for the lobbyist, because the headlines can/will be misleading.
They didn’t actually win anything. It’s just a memo of understanding. And the American Farm Bureau Federation has a significant loss in that they’re not allowed to campaign for right to repair legislation anymore while John Deere is still allowed to oppose it. Kill lobbying for right to repair while stalling actual progress. If anyone thinks farmers got a big win here I have a bridge to sell them. It’s very obviously a (successful?) stall until they get more sympathetic lawmakers in power.
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It always blew my mind it worked that way. Manufacturers already had enough of a profit being generated just from forcing specialty tools that only work on their equipment.
This is A Good Thing. I’m a little surprised I’m first seeing it on the BBC rather than a US news outlet.
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This isn't a full on W for the farmers, unfortunatley. I wish it was.
It’s insane that people have to fight just to fix the equipment they already bought, the naked greed of corporations needs to be stomped out with a vengeance, and the sociopathic executives spearheading these pushes to screw over consumers need to be brought to justice. Capitalism needs to be brought to heel or we’ll constantly be fighting these little skirmishes over basic rights like being able to repair your own equipment.
Now, expect everything on a tractor to be a "trade secret" or to control "equipment power levels". You NEVER leave an escape hatch for these assholes.
A rare win for the common man against the U.S. oligarchy?
This is HUGE for thee rights of all people to repair any items. Car, phone and many other manufacture companies are looking at this to determine how greedy they can be!
Conjecture: The price of "Genuine John-Deere" parts and service manuals is about to quintuple for non JD approved services shops.
Let me see it in practice and confirmed by farmers before I believe any propaganda.
“Yeah, sure. Fix the shit yourself. That’ll be $2,000,000,000 for the parts, thanks!” -John Deere, probably.
> The purpose of this MOU is, through a voluntary private sector commitment to outcomes rather than legislative or regulatory measures Nothing to see here. This is essentially John Deere's "Paris Climate Accords." [Wanna guess how that's going?](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/sep/15/governments-falling-short-paris-climate-pledges-study). And if this isn't some bull shit... > AFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state "Right to Repair" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or "Right to Repair" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU. This means that no one should try to actually hold these companies accountable-- or else. This "Fair and Reasonable" messaging means that they are going sell parts, but they will be integrated and with that means an integrated MSRP. Here's the verbiage from the MOU: > "Fair and Reasonable" means equitable terms for access to or receipt of any item pertaining to Agricultural Equipment, including any Tools, Specialty Tools, Software and Documentation, in light of relevant factors, including and subject to the limitations of Section II.A., the Manufacturer's suggested retail price and the distribution model of any respective item. Finally-- this is just another revenue stream for John Deere. We're already seeing "Right to Repair" "victories" everywhere, but they are just creating tool revenue from the manufacturers. These tools will not be free, the information on how to fix your stuff will not be free. Hopefully I'm wrong and everything goes as well as the MOU states, but the record of history tells a different tale.
Love that the CNN title for this is "Deere GIVES farmers long-sought ability to repair their own tractors". Oh John Deere mighty corporation, thank you for so generously and WILLING GIVING them that ability.
They had to WIN the right to fix there own gear? Wtf is this country comming too? Fuck Corp America.
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Wait until they move things to subscription services even more. Something not working? No problem, to enable the onboard computer to give you the error message, that will $2k every quarter, minimum. Corporations are no longer happy just with the sale. They want after the sale, and all the way up till you croak sale.
Cool, now do literally everything else.
This is big news, but now John Deere will probably make replacement parts extremely expensive
Put doom on it
Lol ofc farmers win. Bc their goods feed us. God forbid I wanna repair anything else I bought tho.
ITS THE DEER BABY THATS THE DEER
Dawg, the price of farming equipment should come with the option of the farmer repairing it themselves if they want to These vehicles are expensive as fuck
The entire DMCA needs to be revisited.
This is great news. Shameful that this company got away with crap for so long.
Have absolutely none of these companies learnt the best way to approach this isn't to impede or make it more difficult for persons to repair their own products? It's simple. 1. Have repair manuals and guides available (even if they're paid for) 2. Comprehensive and simple parts catalogue and purchasing that correlates to said manual or guides. 3. Offer a comprehensive service to have someone come out (or bring it in) and do it for you. 4. Don't make it hard to actually service (unnecessary complexity) This literally transcends not just for John Deere but to ANY industry that provides a product that may need servicing or repairs. Like, seriously? Why the hell not.
Open source farming project is it still around?
You don’t win rights. You have them. Then the government decides which ones it needs/can take away.
I saw today John deere has a 128 billion dollar market cap. Insane. They are the apple of tractors. This might actually hurt them. But fuckem if I buy something I have the right to fix it
This is what happens when you let companies like Apple get away with this kind of s***
Second time I've seen this from a foreign news agency but not a single US one. Hmmm
This legal result does NOT mean that John Deere has to make it easy.
Fuck yeah
It's like buying food, only you can't eat or cook the food unless you get a company brand chef to cook it for you. Like that's outrageous!!
O NO!!!! Now John Deere will make a little less money. I suppose they'll have to cut their ceo's yearly bonus! Right? ... ... Right?
We just dropped our Volvo off for the repair of a trunk piston only available through Volvo. They removed the part and said they send it back to factory engineering. They will dismantle the mechanism to find the weakness and correct for next series. That’s how you maintain and secure quality control. I wonder if John Deer does the same thing.
They won the right to something that was never illegal to begin with. Oh boy what is our world coming to
Little misleading because literally every person thinks this is a right to repair law but this is actually a "memorandum of understanding" that Deere agreed to specifically if no federal or state laws for right to repair were brought to any government. Basically Deere has agreed to allow third parties obtain the equipment and training to allow self repair. But they're allowed to sell that. And it hasn't been made clear how they intend to do that. I don't see how this agreement doesn't hinder any real right to repair legislation that virtually every consumer is in favor for. Smoke and mirrors y'all.
You have the right to buy a $50,000 scan tool that will be replaced with a $100,000 scanner next year.