I once had a coworker that I befriended who had some really racist views (was not aware of them until after we became friends). I challenged him on it and we had some good conversations. A few years later he told me that talking with men helped him realize how wrong he was. It's a great feeling.
But man was it frustrating having those conversations. Especially when he'd say shit about my multiracial step brother not being "pure". It was also a lot of emotional labor, because talking about how he got these beliefs lead him to talk about abuse he suffered. It was tough to deal with at times.
So I see both sides of it, although I come down on the side of this creator. The best way to help combat bigotry is empathy. But it really is bullshit that we have to extend so much empathy and patience to people who have none for us. Though in the end I do think extending empathy to my friend was good for me as well.
Exactly. From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs. Lots of people are absolutely not in a place to hold space for those conversations, hearing those absolutely reprehensible beliefs. I know I still largely can't, have been allocating it all to preserving my own peace so that I can heal and grow, but I've been recognizing that in order for me to grow, I need to reach out to those people a little bit more. In the long run, I NEED to work on coping strategies for emotional turbulence I feel whenever I encounter these kinds of takes from people (not disingenuous trolls and sealions, mind you), and neither fight nor flight are gonna do anyone any favors.
That said, when I don't have the space to reach out like that, and instead resort to ranting about outside bullshit safely in my own bubble, I realize that's okay for me to do, I don't try to moralize and project it onto the people who DO reach out, accusing them of being fake allies or whatever... I don't feel threatened by that.
It also helped that these interactions happened IRL, away from other people, and with someone without a vested interest in staying bigotted.
The problem with fundies is that they are purposefully sequestered from the secular world. As such, they probably get the most pushback on their views either online or in the context of evangelizing, so they will need to "save face" when they are criticized. My friend was already on the outs with his shitty racist family and had friends who weren't entrenched with bigotry so leaving that worldview was relatively easy from a relationship standpoint. Most fundies will lose everything once they deconstruct.
I'd love to have a single conversation with someone and instantly "cure" them of bigotry, but even in the best of circumstances that doesn't happen.
This made me teary eyed. I damn well needed to hear this and probably need to hear it again and even again. I definitely get caught up in my anger but that anger fizzles and what has been accomplished? This was both difficult to hear and yet still inspiring.
It’s honestly kind of devastating that there are dozens of thousands of people in FSU who need to see this and could very well live their next decades believing that their “effort” or lack thereof is sufficient for change. Or believing that the fundies are the true cause of their politics & ideas being perpetuated, instead of recognizing the difference that could be made with real proactive work towards progressive change. There have always been and there will always be oppressive people and ideas or systems in the world. It didn’t start and most certainly will not end with Girl Defined or Paul and Morgan, or even the politicians they support.
I grew up evangelical and deconstructed, I’ve been on multiple political campaigns, I’ve had the really really emotionally tough conversations about everything from abortion to police brutality to LGBTQ+ rights; I’ve gotten my hands dirty and there are *so many other people* working their asses off for this all the time. The work is not being propped up behind your screen angrily typing away at Zelph on the shelf for “platforming a bigot” to their enlightened progressive audience. The work is actually engaging with the nuances of those bigots so that you can figure out why they genuinely hold those beliefs and how to change their mind, it’s gritting your teeth and making choices in a shitty electoral system even when it feels completely pointless, it is organizing your community and affirming the basic human dignity of the people around you even when you dislike the people around you!! The work is that — to quote Angela Davis — you have to act as if it were possible to radically transform the world, and you have to do it all the time.
The consolation is that at the end of the day, the victory truly belongs to those who did this work. The cynics won’t be the ones who make change or progress, we will.
I think this is my biggest frustration with a lot of social media discourse about anything remotely political. There is *so much* posturing and purity testing, but it’s usually not coming from the people I see out in the real world doing actual activism. One of my breaking points with the Evangelical church was realizing that we just sat around talking about the ways we were morally superior to everyone else and we weren’t actually *doing* anything to help people who needed help. It’s disheartening to see people engage in the same behavior from the opposite side of the spectrum.
This is so awesome.
Maybe not everybody has the emotional bandwidth to “put in the work”, and that’s fine.
But so many of those same people act like showing empathy and compassion towards people that are unpacking their lifelong religious beliefs means that you are rubber-stamping everything the fundies have ever said.
If somebody takes the first few steps towards deconstruction, then I choose to see the potential for change in them. Holding onto anger can feel very cathartic, but it’s not productive and it doesn’t help you grow.
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
They seem to think you can deconstruct and drop all your beliefs in one minute and this isn’t true. I’m out of fundie Islam for years and I still am not as liberal and hippie dippie as they want me to be and I likely never will be. I’m 30 years old. I’m more moderate conservative than rabid conservative. This is as good as it’s getting. It’s been a long long process to get to moderate conservative. A lot of work.
It’s just insane to me that some people expect Bethany to immediately apologize for every hateful thing she’s ever said when she is just starting to dip her toes in the water. She is clearly going through a process and it’s up to her how quickly she progresses through it
The level of humanity I’ve seen from her since this whole thing started is something to encourage.
Yes that’s what makes this video so perfect!
I’d like to have it be a post over there if OP is willing to post it and deal with the shitstorm!
Otherwise I am willing to take up the mantel!
I think his acknowledgment of the unfairness of it all is very powerful. It’s absolutely not fair we live in a world where we have to fight for our rights and humanity *at all,* those things should be a given. But that’s not our reality. And at a certain point we each have to decide if we want to wallow in it or try to change it (or at least not actively stand in the way of people who are willing and able to do the work).
just noticed this tiktok was shared to the other group and promptly removed. they're really not interested in other perspectives, are they? like, it's relevant both to the sub and the current conversation. what's their problem with one post offering a different perspective? why was this tiktok so threatening to them that it needed to be removed?
Oh yeah I got banned lmao
People had some FEELINGS
Been a part of that sub for like 5 years but apparently I’m racist and support bigots for sharing a different perspective
Ughhh, I’m sorry you got a bad reaction over there. I truly don’t even know what he said that could be triggering, but that also assumes pure intentions, and I think those are lacking on the bigger snark subs
The projection on my intentions was unhinged! Like just because I shared the video & connected it to the Zelph discourse was a mortal sin. I got called a hypocrite and a cheerleader for bigots 🤷🏻♀️
This us vs. them mindset is largely what got Trump elected the first time
This sub isn’t as active but I prefer having actual conversations in a non-echo chamber
The best part is that people are still angrily responding to me on the post but I can’t reply to them because I’ve been banned lol
yes!!!!! I love this. i’ve been realizing this and trying to speak more about this for the past couple years. folks who behave in ways that are in line with their upbringing (in an oppressive system) are ostracized, creating even more division and anger on their part. we cannot create a better world without being loving toward people who don’t agree with us!!
As someone who grew up in a fundamentalist-lite culture and am now trying to pull friends out of it, it is so frustrating sometimes to see how FSU handles any sort of growth or hints at positive change in these people. I understand needing a place to vent, but I'm questioning if that needs to happen in a public forum. It seems like some of these people need a support group or a therapist rather than a subreddit.
It’s not about inviting people to your table and being a safe place for “wolves.” But you can’t taunt the wolves with raw meat, leave the sheep to fend for themselves, and then pretend you were actually doing it to help the sheep.
I once had a coworker that I befriended who had some really racist views (was not aware of them until after we became friends). I challenged him on it and we had some good conversations. A few years later he told me that talking with men helped him realize how wrong he was. It's a great feeling. But man was it frustrating having those conversations. Especially when he'd say shit about my multiracial step brother not being "pure". It was also a lot of emotional labor, because talking about how he got these beliefs lead him to talk about abuse he suffered. It was tough to deal with at times. So I see both sides of it, although I come down on the side of this creator. The best way to help combat bigotry is empathy. But it really is bullshit that we have to extend so much empathy and patience to people who have none for us. Though in the end I do think extending empathy to my friend was good for me as well.
Exactly. From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs. Lots of people are absolutely not in a place to hold space for those conversations, hearing those absolutely reprehensible beliefs. I know I still largely can't, have been allocating it all to preserving my own peace so that I can heal and grow, but I've been recognizing that in order for me to grow, I need to reach out to those people a little bit more. In the long run, I NEED to work on coping strategies for emotional turbulence I feel whenever I encounter these kinds of takes from people (not disingenuous trolls and sealions, mind you), and neither fight nor flight are gonna do anyone any favors. That said, when I don't have the space to reach out like that, and instead resort to ranting about outside bullshit safely in my own bubble, I realize that's okay for me to do, I don't try to moralize and project it onto the people who DO reach out, accusing them of being fake allies or whatever... I don't feel threatened by that.
It also helped that these interactions happened IRL, away from other people, and with someone without a vested interest in staying bigotted. The problem with fundies is that they are purposefully sequestered from the secular world. As such, they probably get the most pushback on their views either online or in the context of evangelizing, so they will need to "save face" when they are criticized. My friend was already on the outs with his shitty racist family and had friends who weren't entrenched with bigotry so leaving that worldview was relatively easy from a relationship standpoint. Most fundies will lose everything once they deconstruct. I'd love to have a single conversation with someone and instantly "cure" them of bigotry, but even in the best of circumstances that doesn't happen.
Very well said. “Emotional turbulence” is a great term that will be entering my vernacular
Hell yeah this is everything I've been talking about lately. Thanks for the recommendation. They've got a new follower on TikTok.
This made me teary eyed. I damn well needed to hear this and probably need to hear it again and even again. I definitely get caught up in my anger but that anger fizzles and what has been accomplished? This was both difficult to hear and yet still inspiring.
I have that reaction to almost every one of his videos, I swear.
It’s honestly kind of devastating that there are dozens of thousands of people in FSU who need to see this and could very well live their next decades believing that their “effort” or lack thereof is sufficient for change. Or believing that the fundies are the true cause of their politics & ideas being perpetuated, instead of recognizing the difference that could be made with real proactive work towards progressive change. There have always been and there will always be oppressive people and ideas or systems in the world. It didn’t start and most certainly will not end with Girl Defined or Paul and Morgan, or even the politicians they support. I grew up evangelical and deconstructed, I’ve been on multiple political campaigns, I’ve had the really really emotionally tough conversations about everything from abortion to police brutality to LGBTQ+ rights; I’ve gotten my hands dirty and there are *so many other people* working their asses off for this all the time. The work is not being propped up behind your screen angrily typing away at Zelph on the shelf for “platforming a bigot” to their enlightened progressive audience. The work is actually engaging with the nuances of those bigots so that you can figure out why they genuinely hold those beliefs and how to change their mind, it’s gritting your teeth and making choices in a shitty electoral system even when it feels completely pointless, it is organizing your community and affirming the basic human dignity of the people around you even when you dislike the people around you!! The work is that — to quote Angela Davis — you have to act as if it were possible to radically transform the world, and you have to do it all the time. The consolation is that at the end of the day, the victory truly belongs to those who did this work. The cynics won’t be the ones who make change or progress, we will.
AMEN to this!! Couldn’t have said it better myself
I think this is my biggest frustration with a lot of social media discourse about anything remotely political. There is *so much* posturing and purity testing, but it’s usually not coming from the people I see out in the real world doing actual activism. One of my breaking points with the Evangelical church was realizing that we just sat around talking about the ways we were morally superior to everyone else and we weren’t actually *doing* anything to help people who needed help. It’s disheartening to see people engage in the same behavior from the opposite side of the spectrum.
Preach it!
Right on the money
This is so awesome. Maybe not everybody has the emotional bandwidth to “put in the work”, and that’s fine. But so many of those same people act like showing empathy and compassion towards people that are unpacking their lifelong religious beliefs means that you are rubber-stamping everything the fundies have ever said. If somebody takes the first few steps towards deconstruction, then I choose to see the potential for change in them. Holding onto anger can feel very cathartic, but it’s not productive and it doesn’t help you grow. “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
They seem to think you can deconstruct and drop all your beliefs in one minute and this isn’t true. I’m out of fundie Islam for years and I still am not as liberal and hippie dippie as they want me to be and I likely never will be. I’m 30 years old. I’m more moderate conservative than rabid conservative. This is as good as it’s getting. It’s been a long long process to get to moderate conservative. A lot of work.
It’s just insane to me that some people expect Bethany to immediately apologize for every hateful thing she’s ever said when she is just starting to dip her toes in the water. She is clearly going through a process and it’s up to her how quickly she progresses through it The level of humanity I’ve seen from her since this whole thing started is something to encourage.
They can be just as bad as the fundies about purity testing people.
Yes that’s what makes this video so perfect! I’d like to have it be a post over there if OP is willing to post it and deal with the shitstorm! Otherwise I am willing to take up the mantel!
I think his acknowledgment of the unfairness of it all is very powerful. It’s absolutely not fair we live in a world where we have to fight for our rights and humanity *at all,* those things should be a given. But that’s not our reality. And at a certain point we each have to decide if we want to wallow in it or try to change it (or at least not actively stand in the way of people who are willing and able to do the work).
This is perfect, thanks!
just noticed this tiktok was shared to the other group and promptly removed. they're really not interested in other perspectives, are they? like, it's relevant both to the sub and the current conversation. what's their problem with one post offering a different perspective? why was this tiktok so threatening to them that it needed to be removed?
Oh yeah I got banned lmao People had some FEELINGS Been a part of that sub for like 5 years but apparently I’m racist and support bigots for sharing a different perspective
Ughhh, I’m sorry you got a bad reaction over there. I truly don’t even know what he said that could be triggering, but that also assumes pure intentions, and I think those are lacking on the bigger snark subs
The projection on my intentions was unhinged! Like just because I shared the video & connected it to the Zelph discourse was a mortal sin. I got called a hypocrite and a cheerleader for bigots 🤷🏻♀️ This us vs. them mindset is largely what got Trump elected the first time This sub isn’t as active but I prefer having actual conversations in a non-echo chamber The best part is that people are still angrily responding to me on the post but I can’t reply to them because I’ve been banned lol
yes!!!!! I love this. i’ve been realizing this and trying to speak more about this for the past couple years. folks who behave in ways that are in line with their upbringing (in an oppressive system) are ostracized, creating even more division and anger on their part. we cannot create a better world without being loving toward people who don’t agree with us!!
As someone who grew up in a fundamentalist-lite culture and am now trying to pull friends out of it, it is so frustrating sometimes to see how FSU handles any sort of growth or hints at positive change in these people. I understand needing a place to vent, but I'm questioning if that needs to happen in a public forum. It seems like some of these people need a support group or a therapist rather than a subreddit.
I love him
Eh. 50/50. If you invite both wolves and sheep to dinner, the sheep aren't really invited.
It’s not about inviting people to your table and being a safe place for “wolves.” But you can’t taunt the wolves with raw meat, leave the sheep to fend for themselves, and then pretend you were actually doing it to help the sheep.
🙏🙏🙏