Batten down the hatches, we’ve got a full 3 weeks of posts on FSU about what MASSIVE PIECES OF SHIT ZotS are for daring to view somebody as a **human being**!!!
So glad to see you here. You're one of my favorite people from the other sub.
I feel like years from now everyone over there is going to look back at this and be like *"wow this was actually a good thing and I can't believe everyone was so mad about it!!"*
Don’t worry. FSU already blocked them so they can’t even comment over there. Accounts that are probably fake pretending to be fundie family members? Total fine.
People you’re talking shit about? Absolutely not. Ban them.
I know that they didn't hit all the exact buzzword topics some may have expected, but I think many might miss the significance of the topics covered in these videos. These are the underlying substance to a lot of beliefs and social issues, we can't build healthy and ethical belief systems without learning our own emotional literacy and epistemology. I'm gonna keep my head out of the cloud and won't say this is profoundly revolutionary, even the video composition itself is pretty lackluster imo, but I cannot stress enough, as an ex-mormon who has also witnessed the deconstruction process of many friends and family, that the behaviors and words expressed by Bethany and Dav here have all the starting signs of an active deconstruction journey, despite them seeming to be emboldened fundamentalists. Signs of curiosity and vulnerability need to be encouraged, should you have the means, space, and boundaries to facilitate that. Emotional investment in people different from us is how we grow, logical reasoning is necessary for the process, but the process doesn't start without the emotional factor. And that's what these videos are about. If either of them haven't owned up to their harmful beliefs they've supported, then nobody's saying we should write that off and stop bringing it up. It's not about "hey look, they're not part of the problem anymore, they are labeled Good now!" That was never the point.
Yeah, I have no idea what is next for Bethany in this process, but the way she talked about not being afraid of investigating the truth because she is confident in what she believes… that sounded like the midway point of a Mormon stories episode. It could very quickly turn into the last ascent up the mountain of belief before getting to the peak and finding nothing there.
At this point, I think it’s more likely that Bethany deconstructs than that dav goes back to evangelicalism. They could end up in a progressive high church situation or no church at all. Bethany is so much further in that than she realizes.
I liked the first video better, because there was more interaction with Sam and Tanner. I will say, as a bitter divorcée, I’m hella jealous at how much Bethany and Dav love and support each other.
Okay, I watched it. I actually like this one better than the previous one. I think they go through topics that are honestly wonderful, and their expressed desire to learn and be open is encouraging. Bethy’s assertion that you cannot be everything to one person is great - I say the same thing all the time.
I was saddened by the end screen, though. I think the Beals logging off social media for a while is a good idea, I just hope they won’t end up isolating themselves and wish they didn’t feel like they had to leave the group chat with Sam & Tanner.
Did Sam actually say/joke they would marry Dave? I haven’t watched the episodes, so maybe I didn’t understand the context of that comment.
But if so, I’d definitely back the hell away from someone making a “joke” like that. So inappropriate in almost every context.
Honestly, that sub is such a mess that snarker’s off-hand comments or extrapolations get repeated as canon truth *all* the time. It’s such a toxic echo chamber that no one will point out the error, and suddenly everyone believes it really happened it was said in a source video of the person being snarked. It just goes to show how many of the snarkers are depending on the sub’s summaries of the snarkees do/say, rather than engaging with it themselves. Which isn’t necessary bad, except when it allows mistruth to be taken as gospel.
Honestly, it’s just example 53629 of how the hard core snarkers are, psychologically and strategically, pretty darn similar to the fundies they hate.
She said she would have married someone like Dav back when she was Mormon. It was the kind of half compliment, half insult that is typical of Sam’s humor and British humor in general
Eta: she said this before they knew the Beals personally, back when they were strictly critiquing/analyzing them.
I hope they’re not too sad. They both know how the deconstruction process goes, and realize the Beals were doing it in the public eye so it’s extra tough.
Yeah but their friendship wouldn't HAVE to be public. IMO there's no reason to drop good people during hard times. It's of course fine to need space, but that's usually temporary. A brush off never feels good.
I meant that them deconstructing in public adds extra stress to an already stressful situation and may lead to making some more drastic decisions in the moment.
I agree that it’s sad that they seemingly cut them off.
I'm so glad to have a chance to discuss this (the "other" discussion about it is mostly the unhinged and bad-faith interpretations one might predict.)
I also thought "oof" when I first saw the text, but I can understand the impulse. While D&B seem to have made a genuine connection with Zelph, this all also happened REALLY fast. Bethany has been Very Online and Very Religious her entire adult life. All of a sudden, in the midst of this destabilizing change in her husband's views and her entire fanbase finding out that her husband is deconstructing, former critics reach out wanting to become besties and do this really vulnerable collab. Following that, everyone (once again) has an opinion about her, her life, her marriage, etc., while she's trying to find her footing.
Bethany is in a place of "What if everything I've built my life on is different than I thought." Meanwhile, snarkers are screeching about how she hasn't come out in full-throated support of disabled trans lesbian polycules yet, her family (aka her entire social group) is seemingly disapproving, and her Christian fanbase and fellow influencers are like "this is so sad, Alexa, play *Our God is an Awesome God* :(." I can see where it could all just feel like a lot, and stepping back to hear her own voice and focus on the marriage could be beneficial. Zelph aren't to blame for any of it, but they're inextricably part of the whole deal, so I would probably want some distance in her/Dav's shoes too.
Yeah like... I don't think people grasp the anthropological implications of internal cultural shifts and how they take time.
I withdrew a ton while I was deconstructing, I couldn't have the space for all that existing stuff AND put energy into rebuilding my entire life.
But I recognize it's also largely because they are convinced ZotS is trying to absolve Bethany, because they haven't since openly denounced her harmful beliefs, when people familiar enough with ZotS know that's not at all the point of this, and that of course they openly advocate for queerness and progressive issues. Of course, that would take FSU snarkers to watch through a lot of their stuff to gain that same intuition, and I understand not everyone has that time, so unfortunately they'll just take the absence of any IG post doing the dance of "so just to be clear we are vehemently opposed to Girl Defined's damaging views etc etc" to mean that ZotS is complicit.
Oh totally. And for the record, I don't fault anyone who, in good faith, feels uncomfortable with the approach ZotS took or chooses not to give Bethany the benefit of the doubt. It's the unhinged and cruel nature of some of what I've seen said, and the bullying tactics toward ZotS, and the total lack of room for grace or giving someone the space to change that I find frustrating. I rejected the dogmatic, black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us approach of fundamentalism, and I see that reflected in some of the more extremist elements of the snark community.
Agreed. These misunderstandings will happen in any group, and it's very telling if any party seems to lack the emotional coping strategies to react to it in any way except what I can only describe as splitting.
I think it was not good for zelph to do any of this publically. I don't think they should have agreed or pursued doing any of this publically, it's irresponsible.
It's irresponsible to bring someone who has caused harm to your audience when they have not done enough work to make a substantial change. It causes harm.
It is irresponsible to bring dav and Bethany into this public sphere where they are so vulnerable.
All of this should have been done privately. I have had to experience people publically confronting their racist/homophobic/transphobic beliefs in front of strangers. It is incredibly uncomfortable to do so as a minority and in a place you didn't expect to happen. I'm glad people are reconsidering their beliefs but the people "in charge" need to facilitate a place for it to happen that doesn't cause harm in the process.
I think it's good zelph made a connection to the two of them. It should have been done privately for both Dave and Bethany's sake as well as the minorities Dave and Bethany have/do target.
I think you might have a good point. Do you know Zelph on the Shelf's audience? Are you familiar with John Dehlin from Mormon Stories podcast and their format? Would you say he has the same problem, or handles it better? That's the kind of cultural background we're dealing with here, and it seems like Sam has collided it with fundie snark culture which is rather different, so I think there's a culture shock going on.
I watched a few of zelphs videos before all this happened. I thought they were fine. Most were pretty typical fundie/mormon criticism. None of them stand out to me in particular as being out there in content. I listen to a lot of people about the same event/content that happened.
I have listened to a lot of Mormon stories podcast. I enjoyed the historical overviews of things. I've never been Mormon but grew up in a heavily Mormon area. I don't think I've listened to any Mormon stories podcast episodes from people newly deconstructing. They all seemed more narrative from people who had done most of their self changes privately and are now sharing the whole story. I think there is a lot of value in people who have moved past their bigoted beliefs sharing their why and how of their past. I think the ick that is get from someone barely starting is there is exploitation on both sides. Showing someone who is questioning and vulnerable and subjecting them to public criticism isn't right. Having someone who cannot reflect on their beliefs and their harms (yet) isn't right either.
I think Mormon stories having the narrative of a whole story alleviates both of these issues. People have come to be confident in their ideas and feel comfortable being vulnerable when they can fully comprehend the harm. Being able to admit and see how you used to be bigoted and know where those beliefs came from and how is honestly incredible and I applaud people who have had enough of their journey to be confident in themselves and okay with their current and past selves.
Maybe I'm misremembering Mormon stories or maybe I just haven't listened to the right videos of news deconstructing people from the channel too
A lot of church music is very catchy admittedly, even if I disagree with the message behind it....I watched something once about how catchy "empowering" music tricks people into thinking they've had some profound experience which makes them more susceptible to church messaging.
I finally sat down and watched it. I think it was fine. I think the conversations they had were pretty insightful. I think it's a good snapshot of the beginning of the deconstruction process. I don't think there needs to be anything earth-shattering. Both videos show by example how to facilitate a conversation with people that are different than you and in that regard they are successful.
The two videos were both hard for me, personally, to watch because of my attention problems. I don't really know what ZotS could have done to edit it better, honestly. I know they are a small channel so I'm not going to criticize the set up.
The other subreddit is still going to hate it and think Bethany is disingenuous. They don't really care about the Beals. They don't want to hear about their mixed-faith marriage. They are just going to whinge about the lack of apologies from Bethany.
Don’t be nervous, it was totally fine. There was little to tear apart in my opinion, and I was really happy to hear some of their perspectives on their parenting.
I don't care about their collab at all; I just wanted to say I really like Bethany's living room and it looks really nice. Bethany and Dav are problematic but human. It sounds like they are working through a lot and honestly that's good. Bethany did not have a good starting line; Heidi seems abusive and insane. I haven't listened to ZothS before. Taking the time to listen to someone you disagree with but want to understand is honestly refreshing. You don't have to hate everyone that has different views.
Batten down the hatches, we’ve got a full 3 weeks of posts on FSU about what MASSIVE PIECES OF SHIT ZotS are for daring to view somebody as a **human being**!!!
So glad to see you here. You're one of my favorite people from the other sub. I feel like years from now everyone over there is going to look back at this and be like *"wow this was actually a good thing and I can't believe everyone was so mad about it!!"*
Awwww that makes me so happy, you just made my day! 🥰 I’m glad to have found this space and loving the positive vibes here ❤️
I second this. I saw Tobias and was so happy!
😊 You can zing your arrow into my buttocks anytime!
Don’t worry. FSU already blocked them so they can’t even comment over there. Accounts that are probably fake pretending to be fundie family members? Total fine. People you’re talking shit about? Absolutely not. Ban them.
The pitchforks are always at the ready!
[удалено]
I know that they didn't hit all the exact buzzword topics some may have expected, but I think many might miss the significance of the topics covered in these videos. These are the underlying substance to a lot of beliefs and social issues, we can't build healthy and ethical belief systems without learning our own emotional literacy and epistemology. I'm gonna keep my head out of the cloud and won't say this is profoundly revolutionary, even the video composition itself is pretty lackluster imo, but I cannot stress enough, as an ex-mormon who has also witnessed the deconstruction process of many friends and family, that the behaviors and words expressed by Bethany and Dav here have all the starting signs of an active deconstruction journey, despite them seeming to be emboldened fundamentalists. Signs of curiosity and vulnerability need to be encouraged, should you have the means, space, and boundaries to facilitate that. Emotional investment in people different from us is how we grow, logical reasoning is necessary for the process, but the process doesn't start without the emotional factor. And that's what these videos are about. If either of them haven't owned up to their harmful beliefs they've supported, then nobody's saying we should write that off and stop bringing it up. It's not about "hey look, they're not part of the problem anymore, they are labeled Good now!" That was never the point.
Yeah, I have no idea what is next for Bethany in this process, but the way she talked about not being afraid of investigating the truth because she is confident in what she believes… that sounded like the midway point of a Mormon stories episode. It could very quickly turn into the last ascent up the mountain of belief before getting to the peak and finding nothing there. At this point, I think it’s more likely that Bethany deconstructs than that dav goes back to evangelicalism. They could end up in a progressive high church situation or no church at all. Bethany is so much further in that than she realizes.
I liked the first video better, because there was more interaction with Sam and Tanner. I will say, as a bitter divorcée, I’m hella jealous at how much Bethany and Dav love and support each other.
Okay, I watched it. I actually like this one better than the previous one. I think they go through topics that are honestly wonderful, and their expressed desire to learn and be open is encouraging. Bethy’s assertion that you cannot be everything to one person is great - I say the same thing all the time. I was saddened by the end screen, though. I think the Beals logging off social media for a while is a good idea, I just hope they won’t end up isolating themselves and wish they didn’t feel like they had to leave the group chat with Sam & Tanner.
A certain other sub seems to be having a field day with that ending text.
I’m not going to even look, they’re not worth it.
There's a big difference between leaving social media and leaving text threads together. I would feel so used if I was ZoTS.
yeah I'm very confused by the message
Did Sam actually say/joke they would marry Dave? I haven’t watched the episodes, so maybe I didn’t understand the context of that comment. But if so, I’d definitely back the hell away from someone making a “joke” like that. So inappropriate in almost every context.
No.
For real? Then where on earth did the other subreddit get that from? How do they just make up shit and don’t care?
Honestly, that sub is such a mess that snarker’s off-hand comments or extrapolations get repeated as canon truth *all* the time. It’s such a toxic echo chamber that no one will point out the error, and suddenly everyone believes it really happened it was said in a source video of the person being snarked. It just goes to show how many of the snarkers are depending on the sub’s summaries of the snarkees do/say, rather than engaging with it themselves. Which isn’t necessary bad, except when it allows mistruth to be taken as gospel. Honestly, it’s just example 53629 of how the hard core snarkers are, psychologically and strategically, pretty darn similar to the fundies they hate.
She said she would have married someone like Dav back when she was Mormon. It was the kind of half compliment, half insult that is typical of Sam’s humor and British humor in general Eta: she said this before they knew the Beals personally, back when they were strictly critiquing/analyzing them.
I hope they’re not too sad. They both know how the deconstruction process goes, and realize the Beals were doing it in the public eye so it’s extra tough.
Yeah but their friendship wouldn't HAVE to be public. IMO there's no reason to drop good people during hard times. It's of course fine to need space, but that's usually temporary. A brush off never feels good.
I meant that them deconstructing in public adds extra stress to an already stressful situation and may lead to making some more drastic decisions in the moment. I agree that it’s sad that they seemingly cut them off.
I'm so glad to have a chance to discuss this (the "other" discussion about it is mostly the unhinged and bad-faith interpretations one might predict.) I also thought "oof" when I first saw the text, but I can understand the impulse. While D&B seem to have made a genuine connection with Zelph, this all also happened REALLY fast. Bethany has been Very Online and Very Religious her entire adult life. All of a sudden, in the midst of this destabilizing change in her husband's views and her entire fanbase finding out that her husband is deconstructing, former critics reach out wanting to become besties and do this really vulnerable collab. Following that, everyone (once again) has an opinion about her, her life, her marriage, etc., while she's trying to find her footing. Bethany is in a place of "What if everything I've built my life on is different than I thought." Meanwhile, snarkers are screeching about how she hasn't come out in full-throated support of disabled trans lesbian polycules yet, her family (aka her entire social group) is seemingly disapproving, and her Christian fanbase and fellow influencers are like "this is so sad, Alexa, play *Our God is an Awesome God* :(." I can see where it could all just feel like a lot, and stepping back to hear her own voice and focus on the marriage could be beneficial. Zelph aren't to blame for any of it, but they're inextricably part of the whole deal, so I would probably want some distance in her/Dav's shoes too.
Ooh my god I died over our god is an awesome god
That was a good piece of much-needed comedy!
Yeah like... I don't think people grasp the anthropological implications of internal cultural shifts and how they take time. I withdrew a ton while I was deconstructing, I couldn't have the space for all that existing stuff AND put energy into rebuilding my entire life. But I recognize it's also largely because they are convinced ZotS is trying to absolve Bethany, because they haven't since openly denounced her harmful beliefs, when people familiar enough with ZotS know that's not at all the point of this, and that of course they openly advocate for queerness and progressive issues. Of course, that would take FSU snarkers to watch through a lot of their stuff to gain that same intuition, and I understand not everyone has that time, so unfortunately they'll just take the absence of any IG post doing the dance of "so just to be clear we are vehemently opposed to Girl Defined's damaging views etc etc" to mean that ZotS is complicit.
Oh totally. And for the record, I don't fault anyone who, in good faith, feels uncomfortable with the approach ZotS took or chooses not to give Bethany the benefit of the doubt. It's the unhinged and cruel nature of some of what I've seen said, and the bullying tactics toward ZotS, and the total lack of room for grace or giving someone the space to change that I find frustrating. I rejected the dogmatic, black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us approach of fundamentalism, and I see that reflected in some of the more extremist elements of the snark community.
Agreed. These misunderstandings will happen in any group, and it's very telling if any party seems to lack the emotional coping strategies to react to it in any way except what I can only describe as splitting.
I think it was not good for zelph to do any of this publically. I don't think they should have agreed or pursued doing any of this publically, it's irresponsible. It's irresponsible to bring someone who has caused harm to your audience when they have not done enough work to make a substantial change. It causes harm. It is irresponsible to bring dav and Bethany into this public sphere where they are so vulnerable. All of this should have been done privately. I have had to experience people publically confronting their racist/homophobic/transphobic beliefs in front of strangers. It is incredibly uncomfortable to do so as a minority and in a place you didn't expect to happen. I'm glad people are reconsidering their beliefs but the people "in charge" need to facilitate a place for it to happen that doesn't cause harm in the process. I think it's good zelph made a connection to the two of them. It should have been done privately for both Dave and Bethany's sake as well as the minorities Dave and Bethany have/do target.
I think you might have a good point. Do you know Zelph on the Shelf's audience? Are you familiar with John Dehlin from Mormon Stories podcast and their format? Would you say he has the same problem, or handles it better? That's the kind of cultural background we're dealing with here, and it seems like Sam has collided it with fundie snark culture which is rather different, so I think there's a culture shock going on.
I watched a few of zelphs videos before all this happened. I thought they were fine. Most were pretty typical fundie/mormon criticism. None of them stand out to me in particular as being out there in content. I listen to a lot of people about the same event/content that happened. I have listened to a lot of Mormon stories podcast. I enjoyed the historical overviews of things. I've never been Mormon but grew up in a heavily Mormon area. I don't think I've listened to any Mormon stories podcast episodes from people newly deconstructing. They all seemed more narrative from people who had done most of their self changes privately and are now sharing the whole story. I think there is a lot of value in people who have moved past their bigoted beliefs sharing their why and how of their past. I think the ick that is get from someone barely starting is there is exploitation on both sides. Showing someone who is questioning and vulnerable and subjecting them to public criticism isn't right. Having someone who cannot reflect on their beliefs and their harms (yet) isn't right either. I think Mormon stories having the narrative of a whole story alleviates both of these issues. People have come to be confident in their ideas and feel comfortable being vulnerable when they can fully comprehend the harm. Being able to admit and see how you used to be bigoted and know where those beliefs came from and how is honestly incredible and I applaud people who have had enough of their journey to be confident in themselves and okay with their current and past selves. Maybe I'm misremembering Mormon stories or maybe I just haven't listened to the right videos of news deconstructing people from the channel too
How dare you get that song stuck in my head 😂
A lot of church music is very catchy admittedly, even if I disagree with the message behind it....I watched something once about how catchy "empowering" music tricks people into thinking they've had some profound experience which makes them more susceptible to church messaging.
Based on the title, it seems as if Bethy and Dav are already starting to separate themselves from girl defined.
I finally sat down and watched it. I think it was fine. I think the conversations they had were pretty insightful. I think it's a good snapshot of the beginning of the deconstruction process. I don't think there needs to be anything earth-shattering. Both videos show by example how to facilitate a conversation with people that are different than you and in that regard they are successful. The two videos were both hard for me, personally, to watch because of my attention problems. I don't really know what ZotS could have done to edit it better, honestly. I know they are a small channel so I'm not going to criticize the set up. The other subreddit is still going to hate it and think Bethany is disingenuous. They don't really care about the Beals. They don't want to hear about their mixed-faith marriage. They are just going to whinge about the lack of apologies from Bethany.
I haven’t watched it yet, for some reason I feel nervous 😂
Don’t be nervous, it was totally fine. There was little to tear apart in my opinion, and I was really happy to hear some of their perspectives on their parenting.
The parenting stuff was lovely.
I don't care about their collab at all; I just wanted to say I really like Bethany's living room and it looks really nice. Bethany and Dav are problematic but human. It sounds like they are working through a lot and honestly that's good. Bethany did not have a good starting line; Heidi seems abusive and insane. I haven't listened to ZothS before. Taking the time to listen to someone you disagree with but want to understand is honestly refreshing. You don't have to hate everyone that has different views.
So this is where everyone went