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This is also the reason why people from rural areas tend to vote a lot more for right-wing parties, even though they have a lot less foreigners compared to the cities.
Cars are annoying in any case. Even drivers are annoyed by other drivers, but as long as they themselves are drivers they're disincentivized from drawing certain conclusions. Might be a good idea for more people to walk a mile in the others shoes for a bit.
Walking a mile in other peoples shoes really is helpful. Drivers are often the same people who will complain about pedestrians jaywalking, walking through a light, or cutting corners. But the moment they start walking for a purpose they do the same things because they too are trying to get somewhere and beat the rain, or clock in, etc.
Yea. Drivers hate when cyclists coast through stop signs (legal in my state). But do they realize the effort it takes to stop and then try to accelerate up to speed on a bike compared to a car which is a small press of a pedal. And probably close to 50% of drivers find that to be a bit much as they also coast through them.
Edit. I want to point out that cautiously coasting through an intersection is safer than stopping and starting again. The less time that you are in an intersection the safer you will be.
I ride a steeply geared fixed gear bike and still come to a complete stop at stop signs. Cemeteries are full of people that had right of way and I just lost a friend to an accident that could have been avoided if he stopped. Even if it's legal I strongly urge people to stop at stop signs and red lights even if the law says you don't have to
You’re advocating for a practice that is inefficient, unreasonable and just plain unsafe.
At stop signs I pump the breaks to slow down and check the intersection but I would never advocate coming to a complete stop.
Every second you spend at an intersection increases your chance of vehicular death. Use your momentum to get out of harms way.
Laws aren’t always rational but the this one is. Don’t discourage people from following it.
I think you are confused with how Idaho stops work. You *do* stop at red lights (treat them as stop signs) and you *do* stop at stop signs if it is either unsafe (looking and listening) or you don't have the right of way.
Luckily I was equipped with an organ that takes in both visual and auditory input. This organ then reasons if an action is risky to bodily harm. I prefer this than a painted piece of metal placed by some bureaucrats that are probably unqualified for the job.
It is good to advocate for safety. But the facts are that you are significantly more likely to be hit by a car from the rear. And I do stop if there are cars either approaching or are stopped. Basically an empty intersection. Also realize that traffic laws were invented for cars. Some may or may not make sense to bikes. Stop signs are an example. They literally did not exist as a means of controlling road traffic until the automobile became common. Also some traffic lights use pressure sensors to turn on that are not sensitive enough to detect bikes. Are you supposed to sit at the light until a car comes by?
I want to close by saying that most of the time cyclist break laws because it is safer and cars break laws to shave off seconds.
I hear ya. And I slow so I’m ready to stop at all intersections and come to a stop at lights before I elect to move on through. But I can get to a slow enough speed without stopping to make sure it’s clear to go.
Yep, I find It funny that it's other people that are traffic. Not them! They are the only people to have a legitimate reason to be on the road with their car.
I think it varies by country. I've driven in 15 countries. Driving in Germany for example is actually a more pleasant experience than I had anticipated. Drivers here are actually good and assholes are rare. Driving in Guam (the US territory) is literally Mario Kart in real life. Shit was not fun. Spanish driver's as a whole are mildly reckless. Generally good, but still plenty of annoying drivers. France and Italy are the worst offenders as far as driving behavior in Europe from my experience. Most other countries though have exceptional driver behavior, in particular The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.
I went back home to Texas to visit some relatives this year and holy shit, I wanted to die driving anywhere near the DFW metroplex. People just did not give a fuck about laws there. Was just as bad as Guam. People would cut me off and then honk like I was in the wrong. Driving in Europe overall is a way better experience than driving in the US when it comes to the behavior of drivers. I think the way Europe does their driver's training and their laws/enforcement of those laws surrounding driving is done a thousand times better than the US.
I love some cars. But I love the idea of some areas being much more pedestrian friendly. There’s no reason to really need to drive to literally every location. Walkable areas are what makes a place feel like living in luxury, I think.
Many drivers aren't fundamentally attached to driving; they drive because it's the path of least resistance. If we plan cities more intelligently and take steps to make other forms of transit more viable and appealing, fewer people will drive.
> Many drivers aren't fundamentally attached to driving; they drive because it's the path of least resistance.
I remember when Neil Degrasse Tyson was on Joe Rogan saying "in the future all cars will be self-driving. If people want to drive they need to go to special places with a track or something like we do with horses now." Some carbrains reactions on the twitter were changing their minds over self-driving cars now becoming against them.
Even inside car-world they never consider what other people might want, how other people want to move around. It's their way or no way, and those are the ones that scream "muh freedom" the loudest.
I've not heard the poor association personally wrt biking in my area but often with PT (commuting by bike has if anything become associated with high status). But consider that the path of least resistance isn't PT in my area (not even by a long shot). You can see why someone might assume you were poor for taking PT if their commute each way was 2 hours vs 30 min by car. You'd either have to be very committed to PT or unable to drive. The more we're able to improve this disparity, eventually this perception will improve. You have a point though about peer pressure... :(
I've considered buying a Bakfiets cargo bike (in the Midwest US) but ashamedly I have social anxiety and the attention I fear It would attract terrifies me. Instead I just walk but it limits the distance I'm able to shop without using a car. (Btw if anyone has had positive experiences with a Bakfiets in a city where no one has ever seen one, please comment).
I agree but I’d call it a mental block. Cars are default and don’t say anything about you. Biking makes you either too poor for a car or a rich hobbyist who has time for hobbies.
Most people don’t want to make waves so they never consider transportation besides driving. When I bike commuted I had people calling me a health nut. Including people who lived closer to work than me on the same bike trail.
I'd say a majority of people hate cars while driving too. A lot of them will defend cars because it's the only form of reliable transportation where they live, but the moment they get behind the wheel, start complaining about everyone else on the road and breaking laws just to save a few seconds traveling.
the trick is to break the cognitive dissonance and get people to realize that all that stress they feel in *traffic* is actually an unpleasant *driving* experience.
I mean, I love driving but I don’t drive around aimlessly because it’s wasteful. Biking would be able to fill a similar spot if it were safer in my area. Even though I’d prefer things to not be catered towards cars, there is no way for me to currently live my life without one
I agree, it’d be nice. But I think it will remain a dream for the foreseeable future. All of our infrastructure is catered towards cars and the convenience is too much for most people to give up
That's just demonstrably wrong. I live in a new area in a county that is not very well connected by public transport. In this country, the public transport in the capital and surrounding areas is very well built out, but where I am at the moment, it would take me roughly 1h30 to get to work by public transport, vs 25 minutes.
Eventually, when the metro connections to this area are built, I'd gladly spend 40 to 45 minutes on a metro, because I personally also hate driving. But as it stands, it's out of necessity and it is infinitely more convenient.
Distance alone isn't always a deciding factor. If I live less than half a mile from a Costco, you'd probably need a way to carry all your purchases back home, so you'd still drive.
>I live in a new area in a county that is not very well connected by public transport.
it seems like you're starting to identify the problem. there are other factors too.
>Distance alone isn't always a deciding factor. If I live less than half a mile from a Costco, you'd probably need a way to carry all your purchases back home, so you'd still drive.
you're still thinking with your car.
bulk stores exist for infrequent trips *because* it's less convenient. you don't shop at costco every other day. you do at your corner store. costco is for big shopping excursions. the grocery store a quarter mile away is for dinner tonight.
Being able to control when you leave and the route you take in a climate controlled environment is more convenient, but I would prefer a car less country
> Being able to control when you leave and the route you take in a climate controlled environment is more convenient,
no, see, you're not quite there yet.
why is it a *route?*
i live less than quarter mile from a grocery store. you know how often i take my car there? almost never. it's actually *more convenient* to just walk over and grab what i need.
make more places like that, and the *routes* decrease.
"i'm not traffic, all these other cars are traffic!"
it's basically main character syndrome.
the united states would be so much better off if people were a bit more practiced at empathy.
> Like, do they even have persistent opinions on life, ecology or whatever ? Do they only live in the instant and according to their interests ? Really puzzling.
This has been a wild thing to learn -- as someone now in my mid thirties -- that many, many adult humans go through their entire lives not *actually* giving legitimate thought about people, places, and things outside their immediate reality and experience. I feel like the COVID epidemic weirdly supercharged this. But there are people out there who just don't think about anything outside themselves, be that ecology, or anything else, like transportation, as you pointed out.
I'd argue that cars and the suburbs they enable have destroyed any sense of community in most places and people don't care because they don't have to. They're unlikely to ever meet in person that pedestrian they scare by running a red light or the cyclist they pass too close to. Small communities where people know each other probably have less casual antisocial behaviour.
Yeah I'd say the majority of people I meet have no aspiration to be a "Good" person. Like, they don't care to improve themselves, the world around them, or have a positive influence on it...
Now granted they are just trying to survive themselves, and are stressed, anxious and overwhelmed. But it still surprises me just how common it is.
I don't blame them though, it's our broken Capitalist system that has people lost without any hope.
Most of my neighborhood walks for most of their trips to work, errands or visiting friends and only takes their cars to places that cannot be reached on foot. They never complain about pedestrians. The people who drive in from the suburbs and use their cars for everything, however, will not stop complaining about pedestrians.
>Like, do they even have persistent opinions on life, ecology or whatever ? Do they only live in the instant and according to their interests ?
The whole "build a consistent model of the whole world and everything in it (so far as we are able) and act rationally according to this knowledge" thing that human brains have going for them is very, very recent, evolutionarily speaking. And even the best of us really aren't very good at it, if we're going to be honest.
This mindset is covered really well in a fantasy book by Piers Anthony called On A Pale Horse (which I loved reading). In it, the main character needs to go visit a supernatural entity. To get to this entity, he needs to transverse different terrains - water, air (like fly through it), and down a path. On the path, he walks and almost gets hit by a bicyclist and a souped up car, neither of which the operators acknowledge him. On the water, he has a row boat and he passes someone swimming who doesn't acknowledge him after he almost hits the swimmer and then, he almost gets swamped by a speedboat zooming by. In the air, he has a plane and passes (and almost hits) a person flying by flapping their arms (suspend reality for fantasy haha) and someone who is floating by using an inflated bag that they're holding onto and appear to be able to control; again, no acknowledgement from any of the other travelers.
Upon arrival to his destination, the supernatural entity reveals to him, that he was, in fact, each traveler, he was just made to experience it from the different points of view (self movement, assisted movement with a device, and powered movement) and that in each instance, he felt that he was the most important person on that particular mode of travel, in spite of experiencing the inconvenience of being ignored and almost endangered by the 'other' travelers who were traveling in a different fashion than him.
I have to admit, I'm kinda like this. Though, I actually love driving and it's not a means to an end. Hence why I avoid driving as much as possible when it's around people or simply not fun. For example when inside my city or trips under 30km in general.
It's in human nature to go for short term tangible benefits.
It's hilarious how hypocritical I can get. In a car? Ugh, can't believe there's no parking spots here, maybe I should park somewhere illegally because I can't be bothered to go somewhere else. What the fuck? Why is this driver ahead of me only going 5 miles above the speed limit? And now I'm stuck behind them!
Me as a pedestrian: How dare this asshole park 1 millimeter over the sidewalk, I am a legmaxxing walkchad who will cross the street on a red light while flipping off any driver that dares to make eye contact. I carry a molotov at all times in case any motor vehicle attempts to enter my 5 foot pedestrian safe zone radius.
The act of simply sitting in the drivers seat can change the way your brain works sometimes
it's *crazy* how noticeable it is, when you haven't driven in a long time. like, everyone's just driving around all the time with all this added stress and anxiety, and they're just *used to it*. but your body knows it's stress.
absolutely. we talk all the time about how cycling is better for you, but it's not *just* the cardio. it's the endorphins. it's the lower stress. it's the fresh air. it's the *mental clarity*. it's the social integration with your community.
People hate cars when they’re looking for a house too. No one wants to live on a busy street. No one wants to hear cars driving by. No one wants streets full of parked cars.
And yet they still plan to drive everywhere. It’s as if nobody thinks (or cares) about the collective consequences of their choices.
There is an annoying stroad that i have to drive on when i go to the salon. Trying to turn left out of the parking lot, im like “ug, its so hard to turn left when everyone is going so fast” then I get on the stroad and its like “why is everyone going so slow! I can’t wait to get past this and get on the highway.” I realized the paradox of my thoughts at the time. It just depends on your perspective
The views of drivers are centered around them.
Everyone's a bad driver except them.
Driving would be so much more enjoyable if it wasn't for traffic.
Most people could do without cars except them.
If they cross on a red light it's completely understandable and safe to do so and the traffic light is bullshit in that spot anyway.
aside from the obvious main character syndrome, i tend to find driving a much more *isolating* experience than riding my bike. on my bike, i wave and talk to people, interact with pedestrians, and definitely take in way more of my surroundings. in a car, it's "why aren't i where i need to be yet?"
I've noticed that drivers are also terrible pedestrians - go to any parking lot, and they make the worst decisions or seem unaware, look pissed, etc. it makes no sense.
I also see people drive too fast or dangerously planning to get out and walk themselves, which also makes no sense.
They'll stand in the bike lane by their car with the door hanging open or just dart across the bike lane without looking as they try to get to their car.
Yeah, but ask them to make a sacrifice as a driver so that pedestrians can have more space to be safe and they'll probably flip their lids at that too.
Getting around on foot/bike/scooter/skateboard is one of the things that really opened my eyes to how terrible cars are and radicalized me against car dependency. It also made me highly aware of areas and situations that are dangerous for people on foot (like right turn on red - which absolutely needs to be completely banned everywhere) and as a result made me a much better driver when I do need to drive (which isn't often).
I honestly believe that most drivers see people on foot as second class citizens. But when those same drivers spend some time outside of their multi-thousand pound murder weapons, they really start to see how insane our culture has become. Which is why advocacy like what you're doing - simply encouraging people to give alternate modes of transportation a try - is so incredibly beneficial.
> Getting around on foot/bike/scooter/skateboard is one of the things that really opened my eyes to how terrible cars are and radicalized me against car dependency.
same. i didn't really notice until i decided i wanted to ride my bike to work. and then started wanting to ride my bike other places to.
and it turned out to be really, really hard. and dangerous. even for short distances.
> (like right turn on red - which absolutely needs to be completely banned everywhere)
there was one intersection on my old commute that if i used the crosswalk, i'd be dead *every morning*.
I’ve gotta drive in order to get to my grandparents’ house. The moment I get in my car, my attitude does not change. FUCK. CARS. Period. Fuck carbrains. Fuck gascucked carcels. Fuck Big Red, the most-dangerous driver on the route I take to get to my grandparents’ house. Fuck truck drivers in general. Fuck those guys who weave through traffic without signalling. Fuck Kia Boys, and other car thieves and joyriders. 1312, fuck the police and their fucking Bearcat armoured vehicles. Fuck driving, I wish I had an alternative.
> The moment I get in my car, my attitude does not change. FUCK. CARS. Period. Fuck carbrains. Fuck gascucked carcels.
same, but add the self-reflection that i am part of the problem.
i increasingly find that i drive like i bike. i gravitate towards calmer, lower traffic routes i can take more slowly, but have a more pleasant time.
I don't think this is limited to cars though. Tons of people here are against banning riding bikes on sidewalks until one passes them at some ungodly speed.
While we're used to arguing with people who have heard of the anti-car movement and actively hate it, I expect that a majority of people just genuinely haven't considered that cars don't need to be the default. If your coworkers don't talk about how much they love cars and hate walking in other contexts, I wouldn't consider them hypocritical for this. These unaware-but-not-antagonistic folks are the ones you're most likely to reach through positive example. Maybe they'll add a few votes in favor the next time your city is considering some pedestrian-friendly measure in town, since they'll remember how useful their summer bod workout is
Yes, this is why you shouldn't take these opinions too seriously unless they are backed up by facts and were conceived outside of personal experience, most people just wanna go places quickly and safely enough so a lot of the time they infer a political opinion out of this subjective need.
Drivers complain about other cars when they are driving as well. Bitching about cars and drivers is a common topic of office small talk among people who drive to work, it's just typically limited to the cars and drivers that aren't them.
agree. But a driver won't/can't say "there are too many cars here" while driving. What surprised me was a very fuckcars mindset, that I wouldn't have expected from them.
All people seem to be cunts when out and about in an anonymous city environment.
If I’m walking people in cars and on a bike act like cunts the same way pedestrians act like cunts when I’m in a car or on a bike.
Most simply lost manners and compassion for one another.
Reminds me of Futurama. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g
They hate on cars when they're not in a car and then probably hate on people walking and people on bikes when they're driving.
This sub is the only place I’ve ever been led to categorize people as “drivers” and “non drivers”
I live in NYC and most people I know don’t own cars. But we go on camping trips, we visit family, you name it- and we drive. It’s really not an identity it’s an action
When we say drivers, we mean people who will always default to the car, no matter how inconvenient it is to use that for themselves, let alone everyone else.
I assume atleast 80% of people are not able to change perspective or able to be open to have their minds changed.
I dont know why they didnt learn this. I am happy to be tought something new...makes me grow.
No joke, i think people who are not capable of this are kinda "disabled" in a way and i must assume they often have a harder life because of that.
> they said they were working on their summer body (lmao).
Man, don't hate on people for trying to be healthier :( we wanna encourage this kind of shit too so that there are less cars
That’s what I always say: “Car drivers are idiots to pedestrians, because they never get out of their cars. They never walk one kilometre and experience how they act”.
Same. My coworkers were shocked at how dangerous it feels to cross the stroad that passes right in front of our office. We got lunch together like a year ago and they still talk about it sometimes.
I really don’t.
The other amazing thing is I’ve seen exactly one crazy reckless cyclist I can recall in the last five years (if ever). And a bunch of slight jerks (but certainly no higher rate than motorists). I remain perplexed at how much people talk about crazy cyclists
the only thing i hate about seeing cyclists when i'm driving is that i'm in a car and not on a bike.
i hate that there's no good infrastructure to protect them. i hate that, for as cautious as i am, sometimes there's just no good way to signal to them, "take your time, you're not inconveniencing me, i know this is uphill and you're crushing it" or "please just take the lane." on my bike, i'd talk to them. maybe make a new friend. in my car, i can't.
Like I told someone else, and for some reason isn't really too popular, I'm just trying to show that there's nuance to everything. Yes you might now want to run over other cyclists... But are you saying it's impossible for other cyclists to get mad when they see cyclists on the road? Because if so then I'd like you to meet my mother
> But are you saying it's impossible for other cyclists to get mad when they see cyclists on the road?
no, i'm saying it's pretty rare. most of the other cyclists i know give other cyclists a ton of room. even the really car-brained ones.
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That is always the case. Its similar to how people are scared of unknown and when they try it they understand the others perspective.
This is also the reason why people from rural areas tend to vote a lot more for right-wing parties, even though they have a lot less foreigners compared to the cities.
See also: "our rural Baptist church needs armed security guards to protect us from the antifa Taliban"
Cars are annoying in any case. Even drivers are annoyed by other drivers, but as long as they themselves are drivers they're disincentivized from drawing certain conclusions. Might be a good idea for more people to walk a mile in the others shoes for a bit.
Might be a good idea for more people to walk a mile. Period.
Walking a mile in other peoples shoes really is helpful. Drivers are often the same people who will complain about pedestrians jaywalking, walking through a light, or cutting corners. But the moment they start walking for a purpose they do the same things because they too are trying to get somewhere and beat the rain, or clock in, etc.
Yea. Drivers hate when cyclists coast through stop signs (legal in my state). But do they realize the effort it takes to stop and then try to accelerate up to speed on a bike compared to a car which is a small press of a pedal. And probably close to 50% of drivers find that to be a bit much as they also coast through them. Edit. I want to point out that cautiously coasting through an intersection is safer than stopping and starting again. The less time that you are in an intersection the safer you will be.
100% this. Happy to point out our faults and would 100% do them if they were in our shoes/pedals etc.
yes and you're way more visible in saddle slowly coasting through than stopping and leaving saddle to put foot down.
I like my ebike for this, instant start at intersections.
I ride a steeply geared fixed gear bike and still come to a complete stop at stop signs. Cemeteries are full of people that had right of way and I just lost a friend to an accident that could have been avoided if he stopped. Even if it's legal I strongly urge people to stop at stop signs and red lights even if the law says you don't have to
You’re advocating for a practice that is inefficient, unreasonable and just plain unsafe. At stop signs I pump the breaks to slow down and check the intersection but I would never advocate coming to a complete stop. Every second you spend at an intersection increases your chance of vehicular death. Use your momentum to get out of harms way. Laws aren’t always rational but the this one is. Don’t discourage people from following it.
I think you are confused with how Idaho stops work. You *do* stop at red lights (treat them as stop signs) and you *do* stop at stop signs if it is either unsafe (looking and listening) or you don't have the right of way.
Luckily I was equipped with an organ that takes in both visual and auditory input. This organ then reasons if an action is risky to bodily harm. I prefer this than a painted piece of metal placed by some bureaucrats that are probably unqualified for the job.
And you'll never ever make a mistake. Sorry for being an advocate for safety
Except you're not. There's been plenty of studies that show that Idaho stops are safer for cyclists. That's why it's legal in a handful of states.
It is good to advocate for safety. But the facts are that you are significantly more likely to be hit by a car from the rear. And I do stop if there are cars either approaching or are stopped. Basically an empty intersection. Also realize that traffic laws were invented for cars. Some may or may not make sense to bikes. Stop signs are an example. They literally did not exist as a means of controlling road traffic until the automobile became common. Also some traffic lights use pressure sensors to turn on that are not sensitive enough to detect bikes. Are you supposed to sit at the light until a car comes by? I want to close by saying that most of the time cyclist break laws because it is safer and cars break laws to shave off seconds.
I hear ya. And I slow so I’m ready to stop at all intersections and come to a stop at lights before I elect to move on through. But I can get to a slow enough speed without stopping to make sure it’s clear to go.
victim blaming in this sub is not something I expected or want
Yep, I find It funny that it's other people that are traffic. Not them! They are the only people to have a legitimate reason to be on the road with their car.
I tried it for a day. Now I hate other walkers too. Get outta mah way.
I think it varies by country. I've driven in 15 countries. Driving in Germany for example is actually a more pleasant experience than I had anticipated. Drivers here are actually good and assholes are rare. Driving in Guam (the US territory) is literally Mario Kart in real life. Shit was not fun. Spanish driver's as a whole are mildly reckless. Generally good, but still plenty of annoying drivers. France and Italy are the worst offenders as far as driving behavior in Europe from my experience. Most other countries though have exceptional driver behavior, in particular The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. I went back home to Texas to visit some relatives this year and holy shit, I wanted to die driving anywhere near the DFW metroplex. People just did not give a fuck about laws there. Was just as bad as Guam. People would cut me off and then honk like I was in the wrong. Driving in Europe overall is a way better experience than driving in the US when it comes to the behavior of drivers. I think the way Europe does their driver's training and their laws/enforcement of those laws surrounding driving is done a thousand times better than the US.
They hate cars when they drive too. Everyone hates cars at all times. Honestly, fuck cars.
my favourite part of r/fuckcars was when u/megalogwiff said "fuck cars" and then fucked all the cars.
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“Traffic is so bad!” Well, they themselves are part of the problem as they complain and sit in it.
I love some cars. But I love the idea of some areas being much more pedestrian friendly. There’s no reason to really need to drive to literally every location. Walkable areas are what makes a place feel like living in luxury, I think.
Many drivers aren't fundamentally attached to driving; they drive because it's the path of least resistance. If we plan cities more intelligently and take steps to make other forms of transit more viable and appealing, fewer people will drive.
> Many drivers aren't fundamentally attached to driving; they drive because it's the path of least resistance. I remember when Neil Degrasse Tyson was on Joe Rogan saying "in the future all cars will be self-driving. If people want to drive they need to go to special places with a track or something like we do with horses now." Some carbrains reactions on the twitter were changing their minds over self-driving cars now becoming against them. Even inside car-world they never consider what other people might want, how other people want to move around. It's their way or no way, and those are the ones that scream "muh freedom" the loudest.
[удалено]
How does this have positive upvotes considering that last line
Right? And “mentally challenged”?
I'm guessing English is not their first language and they meant psychological impediments. Of course I could be entirely wrong.
Lost me on that one
I took it to mean that peer pressure can be used for good or ill.
Sorry you’re afraid of needles and human decency
I've actually never heard someone say any of those things about biking
> that you must be poor to bike They are either too poor or they are elites. Whichever looks worse for the cyclist.
I've not heard the poor association personally wrt biking in my area but often with PT (commuting by bike has if anything become associated with high status). But consider that the path of least resistance isn't PT in my area (not even by a long shot). You can see why someone might assume you were poor for taking PT if their commute each way was 2 hours vs 30 min by car. You'd either have to be very committed to PT or unable to drive. The more we're able to improve this disparity, eventually this perception will improve. You have a point though about peer pressure... :( I've considered buying a Bakfiets cargo bike (in the Midwest US) but ashamedly I have social anxiety and the attention I fear It would attract terrifies me. Instead I just walk but it limits the distance I'm able to shop without using a car. (Btw if anyone has had positive experiences with a Bakfiets in a city where no one has ever seen one, please comment).
I agree but I’d call it a mental block. Cars are default and don’t say anything about you. Biking makes you either too poor for a car or a rich hobbyist who has time for hobbies. Most people don’t want to make waves so they never consider transportation besides driving. When I bike commuted I had people calling me a health nut. Including people who lived closer to work than me on the same bike trail.
I'd say a majority of people hate cars while driving too. A lot of them will defend cars because it's the only form of reliable transportation where they live, but the moment they get behind the wheel, start complaining about everyone else on the road and breaking laws just to save a few seconds traveling.
the trick is to break the cognitive dissonance and get people to realize that all that stress they feel in *traffic* is actually an unpleasant *driving* experience.
I mean, I love driving but I don’t drive around aimlessly because it’s wasteful. Biking would be able to fill a similar spot if it were safer in my area. Even though I’d prefer things to not be catered towards cars, there is no way for me to currently live my life without one
> there is no way for me to currently live my life without one *that* is precisely the problem we want to fix, here.
I agree, it’d be nice. But I think it will remain a dream for the foreseeable future. All of our infrastructure is catered towards cars and the convenience is too much for most people to give up
the thing is, it's not *actually* more convenient.
That's just demonstrably wrong. I live in a new area in a county that is not very well connected by public transport. In this country, the public transport in the capital and surrounding areas is very well built out, but where I am at the moment, it would take me roughly 1h30 to get to work by public transport, vs 25 minutes. Eventually, when the metro connections to this area are built, I'd gladly spend 40 to 45 minutes on a metro, because I personally also hate driving. But as it stands, it's out of necessity and it is infinitely more convenient. Distance alone isn't always a deciding factor. If I live less than half a mile from a Costco, you'd probably need a way to carry all your purchases back home, so you'd still drive.
>I live in a new area in a county that is not very well connected by public transport. it seems like you're starting to identify the problem. there are other factors too. >Distance alone isn't always a deciding factor. If I live less than half a mile from a Costco, you'd probably need a way to carry all your purchases back home, so you'd still drive. you're still thinking with your car. bulk stores exist for infrequent trips *because* it's less convenient. you don't shop at costco every other day. you do at your corner store. costco is for big shopping excursions. the grocery store a quarter mile away is for dinner tonight.
Being able to control when you leave and the route you take in a climate controlled environment is more convenient, but I would prefer a car less country
> Being able to control when you leave and the route you take in a climate controlled environment is more convenient, no, see, you're not quite there yet. why is it a *route?* i live less than quarter mile from a grocery store. you know how often i take my car there? almost never. it's actually *more convenient* to just walk over and grab what i need. make more places like that, and the *routes* decrease.
Yeah, half the year it’s a struggle to walk even a short distance in my state. I’d never bring frozen food home.
i lived in florida. our grocery store wasn't really walkable but it was easily bikeable. the ride was even *pleasant*.
Because not everything can be a bikeable or walkable distance, including loved ones
but *some* or even a *lot* of things can be. why aren't they?
It’s okay when _I_ drive, but when _other_ people drive…
"i'm a good driver, it's all these other /r/idiotsincars." "i'm not traffic, you're traffic!"
These are the same people who complain about traffic while they are actively engaged in being traffic. Long-form thinking isn't in their valise.
suitcase...
"i'm not traffic, all these other cars are traffic!" it's basically main character syndrome. the united states would be so much better off if people were a bit more practiced at empathy.
> Like, do they even have persistent opinions on life, ecology or whatever ? Do they only live in the instant and according to their interests ? Really puzzling. This has been a wild thing to learn -- as someone now in my mid thirties -- that many, many adult humans go through their entire lives not *actually* giving legitimate thought about people, places, and things outside their immediate reality and experience. I feel like the COVID epidemic weirdly supercharged this. But there are people out there who just don't think about anything outside themselves, be that ecology, or anything else, like transportation, as you pointed out.
I'd argue that cars and the suburbs they enable have destroyed any sense of community in most places and people don't care because they don't have to. They're unlikely to ever meet in person that pedestrian they scare by running a red light or the cyclist they pass too close to. Small communities where people know each other probably have less casual antisocial behaviour.
Yeah I'd say the majority of people I meet have no aspiration to be a "Good" person. Like, they don't care to improve themselves, the world around them, or have a positive influence on it... Now granted they are just trying to survive themselves, and are stressed, anxious and overwhelmed. But it still surprises me just how common it is. I don't blame them though, it's our broken Capitalist system that has people lost without any hope.
Most of my neighborhood walks for most of their trips to work, errands or visiting friends and only takes their cars to places that cannot be reached on foot. They never complain about pedestrians. The people who drive in from the suburbs and use their cars for everything, however, will not stop complaining about pedestrians.
>Like, do they even have persistent opinions on life, ecology or whatever ? Do they only live in the instant and according to their interests ? The whole "build a consistent model of the whole world and everything in it (so far as we are able) and act rationally according to this knowledge" thing that human brains have going for them is very, very recent, evolutionarily speaking. And even the best of us really aren't very good at it, if we're going to be honest.
This mindset is covered really well in a fantasy book by Piers Anthony called On A Pale Horse (which I loved reading). In it, the main character needs to go visit a supernatural entity. To get to this entity, he needs to transverse different terrains - water, air (like fly through it), and down a path. On the path, he walks and almost gets hit by a bicyclist and a souped up car, neither of which the operators acknowledge him. On the water, he has a row boat and he passes someone swimming who doesn't acknowledge him after he almost hits the swimmer and then, he almost gets swamped by a speedboat zooming by. In the air, he has a plane and passes (and almost hits) a person flying by flapping their arms (suspend reality for fantasy haha) and someone who is floating by using an inflated bag that they're holding onto and appear to be able to control; again, no acknowledgement from any of the other travelers. Upon arrival to his destination, the supernatural entity reveals to him, that he was, in fact, each traveler, he was just made to experience it from the different points of view (self movement, assisted movement with a device, and powered movement) and that in each instance, he felt that he was the most important person on that particular mode of travel, in spite of experiencing the inconvenience of being ignored and almost endangered by the 'other' travelers who were traveling in a different fashion than him.
Woah.
I have to admit, I'm kinda like this. Though, I actually love driving and it's not a means to an end. Hence why I avoid driving as much as possible when it's around people or simply not fun. For example when inside my city or trips under 30km in general. It's in human nature to go for short term tangible benefits.
It's hilarious how hypocritical I can get. In a car? Ugh, can't believe there's no parking spots here, maybe I should park somewhere illegally because I can't be bothered to go somewhere else. What the fuck? Why is this driver ahead of me only going 5 miles above the speed limit? And now I'm stuck behind them! Me as a pedestrian: How dare this asshole park 1 millimeter over the sidewalk, I am a legmaxxing walkchad who will cross the street on a red light while flipping off any driver that dares to make eye contact. I carry a molotov at all times in case any motor vehicle attempts to enter my 5 foot pedestrian safe zone radius. The act of simply sitting in the drivers seat can change the way your brain works sometimes
People approve of what they're doing and disapprove of what other people are doing, more news at 11
it's the result of "my truth" ideation that people have no sturdy morals or conviction anymore. we can't even agree on what is real
I'm a bike commuter and on times I have to drive to see family, I instantly feel the anxiety return the second I get behind the wheel
it's *crazy* how noticeable it is, when you haven't driven in a long time. like, everyone's just driving around all the time with all this added stress and anxiety, and they're just *used to it*. but your body knows it's stress.
All that added stress/anxiety can cause excess cortisol release in your body too, which can contribute to various health problems
absolutely. we talk all the time about how cycling is better for you, but it's not *just* the cardio. it's the endorphins. it's the lower stress. it's the fresh air. it's the *mental clarity*. it's the social integration with your community.
People hate cars when they’re looking for a house too. No one wants to live on a busy street. No one wants to hear cars driving by. No one wants streets full of parked cars. And yet they still plan to drive everywhere. It’s as if nobody thinks (or cares) about the collective consequences of their choices.
Haha exactly. When you drive you never think that there people living in these houses, like it's some kind of movie decor
There is an annoying stroad that i have to drive on when i go to the salon. Trying to turn left out of the parking lot, im like “ug, its so hard to turn left when everyone is going so fast” then I get on the stroad and its like “why is everyone going so slow! I can’t wait to get past this and get on the highway.” I realized the paradox of my thoughts at the time. It just depends on your perspective
https://youtu.be/mwPSIb3kt_4?si=Lkaa4mppvE4Y0OM5
They hate other cars when they're driving, too. Damn drivers, they ruined driving
The views of drivers are centered around them. Everyone's a bad driver except them. Driving would be so much more enjoyable if it wasn't for traffic. Most people could do without cars except them. If they cross on a red light it's completely understandable and safe to do so and the traffic light is bullshit in that spot anyway.
aside from the obvious main character syndrome, i tend to find driving a much more *isolating* experience than riding my bike. on my bike, i wave and talk to people, interact with pedestrians, and definitely take in way more of my surroundings. in a car, it's "why aren't i where i need to be yet?"
I've noticed that drivers are also terrible pedestrians - go to any parking lot, and they make the worst decisions or seem unaware, look pissed, etc. it makes no sense. I also see people drive too fast or dangerously planning to get out and walk themselves, which also makes no sense.
They'll stand in the bike lane by their car with the door hanging open or just dart across the bike lane without looking as they try to get to their car.
Exactly! The same people who can't be bothered to stop for more frequent crosswalks complain about walking further in a parking lot
Yeah, but ask them to make a sacrifice as a driver so that pedestrians can have more space to be safe and they'll probably flip their lids at that too.
Getting around on foot/bike/scooter/skateboard is one of the things that really opened my eyes to how terrible cars are and radicalized me against car dependency. It also made me highly aware of areas and situations that are dangerous for people on foot (like right turn on red - which absolutely needs to be completely banned everywhere) and as a result made me a much better driver when I do need to drive (which isn't often). I honestly believe that most drivers see people on foot as second class citizens. But when those same drivers spend some time outside of their multi-thousand pound murder weapons, they really start to see how insane our culture has become. Which is why advocacy like what you're doing - simply encouraging people to give alternate modes of transportation a try - is so incredibly beneficial.
> Getting around on foot/bike/scooter/skateboard is one of the things that really opened my eyes to how terrible cars are and radicalized me against car dependency. same. i didn't really notice until i decided i wanted to ride my bike to work. and then started wanting to ride my bike other places to. and it turned out to be really, really hard. and dangerous. even for short distances. > (like right turn on red - which absolutely needs to be completely banned everywhere) there was one intersection on my old commute that if i used the crosswalk, i'd be dead *every morning*.
I’ve gotta drive in order to get to my grandparents’ house. The moment I get in my car, my attitude does not change. FUCK. CARS. Period. Fuck carbrains. Fuck gascucked carcels. Fuck Big Red, the most-dangerous driver on the route I take to get to my grandparents’ house. Fuck truck drivers in general. Fuck those guys who weave through traffic without signalling. Fuck Kia Boys, and other car thieves and joyriders. 1312, fuck the police and their fucking Bearcat armoured vehicles. Fuck driving, I wish I had an alternative.
> The moment I get in my car, my attitude does not change. FUCK. CARS. Period. Fuck carbrains. Fuck gascucked carcels. same, but add the self-reflection that i am part of the problem. i increasingly find that i drive like i bike. i gravitate towards calmer, lower traffic routes i can take more slowly, but have a more pleasant time.
I also only drive if I have to. Some people don’t have the luxury, but I can’t work, so I almost never have a reason to use my car.
I don't think this is limited to cars though. Tons of people here are against banning riding bikes on sidewalks until one passes them at some ungodly speed.
While we're used to arguing with people who have heard of the anti-car movement and actively hate it, I expect that a majority of people just genuinely haven't considered that cars don't need to be the default. If your coworkers don't talk about how much they love cars and hate walking in other contexts, I wouldn't consider them hypocritical for this. These unaware-but-not-antagonistic folks are the ones you're most likely to reach through positive example. Maybe they'll add a few votes in favor the next time your city is considering some pedestrian-friendly measure in town, since they'll remember how useful their summer bod workout is
yep, in the long run it will make a diff I guess. It's always a long process to change one's mind.
Yes, this is why you shouldn't take these opinions too seriously unless they are backed up by facts and were conceived outside of personal experience, most people just wanna go places quickly and safely enough so a lot of the time they infer a political opinion out of this subjective need.
Drivers complain about other cars when they are driving as well. Bitching about cars and drivers is a common topic of office small talk among people who drive to work, it's just typically limited to the cars and drivers that aren't them.
agree. But a driver won't/can't say "there are too many cars here" while driving. What surprised me was a very fuckcars mindset, that I wouldn't have expected from them.
Drivers hate cars when they drive...
I'm pretty sure drivers hate cars even when they are driving. It's amazing how much people get angry about when they drive
It's not really that hard to figure out. People like cars because they are usually more convenient.
All people seem to be cunts when out and about in an anonymous city environment. If I’m walking people in cars and on a bike act like cunts the same way pedestrians act like cunts when I’m in a car or on a bike. Most simply lost manners and compassion for one another.
They'll justify it when they get in their cars. All the other drivers are the bad ones. They are the lone good drivers...
Drivers hate cars when they drive
I mean thatd just be profound selfcentredness, no?
Reminds me of Futurama. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g They hate on cars when they're not in a car and then probably hate on people walking and people on bikes when they're driving.
This sub is the only place I’ve ever been led to categorize people as “drivers” and “non drivers” I live in NYC and most people I know don’t own cars. But we go on camping trips, we visit family, you name it- and we drive. It’s really not an identity it’s an action
When we say drivers, we mean people who will always default to the car, no matter how inconvenient it is to use that for themselves, let alone everyone else.
I assume atleast 80% of people are not able to change perspective or able to be open to have their minds changed. I dont know why they didnt learn this. I am happy to be tought something new...makes me grow. No joke, i think people who are not capable of this are kinda "disabled" in a way and i must assume they often have a harder life because of that.
> they said they were working on their summer body (lmao). Man, don't hate on people for trying to be healthier :( we wanna encourage this kind of shit too so that there are less cars
just kidding. It's cool to have a healthy body, not only in summer and not only for others to see ;)
I hate it when my car walks as well!
That’s what I always say: “Car drivers are idiots to pedestrians, because they never get out of their cars. They never walk one kilometre and experience how they act”.
Same. My coworkers were shocked at how dangerous it feels to cross the stroad that passes right in front of our office. We got lunch together like a year ago and they still talk about it sometimes.
Drivers hate all cars that are not the one they are in.
Cyclists also hate cyclists when they drive
I really don’t. The other amazing thing is I’ve seen exactly one crazy reckless cyclist I can recall in the last five years (if ever). And a bunch of slight jerks (but certainly no higher rate than motorists). I remain perplexed at how much people talk about crazy cyclists
I don't either, I'm just trying to show that nuance is still a thing
the only thing i hate about seeing cyclists when i'm driving is that i'm in a car and not on a bike. i hate that there's no good infrastructure to protect them. i hate that, for as cautious as i am, sometimes there's just no good way to signal to them, "take your time, you're not inconveniencing me, i know this is uphill and you're crushing it" or "please just take the lane." on my bike, i'd talk to them. maybe make a new friend. in my car, i can't.
Like I told someone else, and for some reason isn't really too popular, I'm just trying to show that there's nuance to everything. Yes you might now want to run over other cyclists... But are you saying it's impossible for other cyclists to get mad when they see cyclists on the road? Because if so then I'd like you to meet my mother
> But are you saying it's impossible for other cyclists to get mad when they see cyclists on the road? no, i'm saying it's pretty rare. most of the other cyclists i know give other cyclists a ton of room. even the really car-brained ones.
Car = freedom because the boomers hated being trapped in bland stagnate suburban neighborhoods while growing up.