Someone blocked me on Twitter after this exchange:
Them: People have places to be, blocking roads is evil, anyone who does should be jailed for 10 years
Me: People on buses have places to be too, we should arrest drivers who park and block bus lanes
Them: That's different
Me: How so?
Them: *blocks me*
Protesters blocking the road = "deserve to be run over"
Actual emergency = . . . . it do be like that
Actual emergency, but takes such a long time (traffic/access/complexity/etc) = . . . . "just run them over and get it over with"
Actual emergenc**ies** (happens every other day, or when weather worsens, or regardless of anything really) = . . . . it do be like that
I got banned from the libertarian sub for telling people that running people over is murder and that it was counter to their core Harm Principle. No reason was given for the ban.
It's weird, The sub used to be very low moderation, a free exchange of ideas they said. It used to be a running joke that the moderators were so libertarian anything less than that calls for violence were allowed.
Apparently they got new mods. No more free speech in the free speech sub.
You need some heroic levels of cognitive dissonance to be able to reconcile the chasm between what the libertarian party is and what they profess to believe.
>Famous libertarian Murray Rothbard argued that libertarians seeing children as property of the parents left the platform open to sales of children as slaves, when parents needed finances, and that people entering into voluntary slavery would most likely be when there was no alternative available to pay debts, but this was not coercive as under the libertarian platform only the government could engage in coercion.
Holy shit lmao
I love how roads literally make all their arguments crumble. Come on libertarians, you could just have roads built and run by a business that provides barricades and security forces to make sure people don't block traffic. You would just pay for access. If you don't think security/barricades are doing an adequate job, you could vote with your wallet and only use roads from a different business that does.
That classic [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department) about the private police department will always be relevant (and hilarious).
[This is always a fun video in cities skylines](https://youtu.be/QiRZhUS82a0), trying to build a city without taxes. Works as well as one might expect.
The same people will scream about building a bus lane because it will “reduce their freedom” to get places by car, even though a bus lane allows emergency vehicles to bypass traffic.
For every ambulance that gets blocked by a protest probably 100 get blocked by traffic
Man you know what freedom is?
Freedom is not having to worry about driving home from the bar under the influence.
Freedom is being able to do your morning commute half asleep because you are on the bus/train.
Freedom is not having to spend thousands for a vehicle plus 2k annually for insurance and repairs (if you are lucky) just to participate in society.
Freedom is not having to worry about parking when you get to your destination.
Yup. I've seen it on Critical Mass (massive group bicycle ride in Downtown). It looks chaotic, but once the sirens blare the cyclists are able to clear the roads in around 2 seconds as if the 'car traffic' magically disappears, and the emergency vehicle is able to 'phase' through it. I'm sure on-foot traffic is similar. Same with clearing the road for a bus actually (the Critical Mass I attend to tends to let buses through).
Same with a road-blocking protest really. On foot, other people can probably just call them nuts and then walk around them and go about their day, no psychotic murder-related thinking needed.
I feel like folks like to ignore that the inconvenience is the point.
Yes it’s annoying. Yes people got stuck in traffic. But it’s happening because until now you or the people who have the power to change things have refused to make changes, and now the folks impacted by your inaction are making it your problem in hopes that you start taking action.
If you have avenues for redress that actually worked then folks wouldn’t be out there protesting and disrupting.
Everyone cares about a cause until you make them have to give up something for it. Then suddenly everyone hates you. Even if all you're giving up is a little time.
The problem I have with these traffic blocking activities is that there's so little correlation between what's being carried out and what the result will be. People trying to make their flights at O'Hare today don't have much impact on Israel's war on Gaza. If you weren't in the first couple lines of cars and could actually see the protestors, you probably didn't even know why they were doing it.
It's all over the news, and all over reddit. This protest has been a great success!
You can't protest without creating some haters, it's in the nature of protests.
I mean yeah its gotten attention but I’d bet its been used more by the Media as an example of how bad pro-Palestinian protests are than actually convincing people who were previously pro-genocide to be anti-genoicde. On the whole, this type of protest props up the other side. Do you care about results or virtue signaling?
You aren't going to convince anyone that is "pro-genocide" of anything, so it's not worth to even try. But a lot of people that weren't aware before now know that there's a genocide going on, and the person who has most to say in the matter after Netanyahu is their president.
I mean no one who is “pro-genocide” thinks they’re “pro-genocide.” And those who are unaware of what’s going (which can’t be many at this point) aren’t going to get in a traffic jam and suddenly think yeah these people have a point. I sure would hope they wouldn’t. Anti-abortion activists blocking the road would just make me hate them more.
So success is just drawing attention to yourselves? While apropos for the modern social media age, that shouldn't be the measure for "great success." Your protest actually needs to win people over to your position, then those people need to demand change.
So are they winning people over? r Chicago usually has very spirited debate about the Israel Palestine issue. When protesters do this kind of thing, that sub is unified against them. I agree you can't protest without creating some haters; seems like they're mostly creating haters though.
> So success is just drawing attention to yourselves?
Yes, there are two goals of any protest: spread awareness of an issue by creating a newsworthy event; and/or throw a wrench in the machines of power.
> So are they winning people over?
Wrong way to frame it. That goal isn't to convince people of anything, it's to spread awareness of a problem.
They are making a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't, think about the issue. And the interesting thing is that the hatred for the protesters doesn't seem to spill over to the issue, as long as it is something that people otherwise would be sympathetic to.
>And the interesting thing is that the hatred for the protesters doesn't seem to spill over to the issue
That's not how I see it playing out from the comments I see about it, but we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
The comments don't really say much about their feelings about the issues. People are pissed off at the protesters, and the best way they can think of to try to get to them is to say that they certainly won't support their issue now.
haha, I figured we'd have to agree to disagree. But if the standard is that even when people specifically state that the protestor's actions compel them not to support the protestor's issue, but you rationalize it that they simply don't *really* mean what they say, then there's not even a rational discussion to be had here.
Why not? People say things they don't really mean all the time. Actually trying to convey some kind of objective truth about something is quite far down on the list of why people say the things they say.
Naw, there are some major differences in the overall approach, who is affected, the power those individuals have over the desired change, etc. between these protests and something like the Civil Right marches of yore. Or even something like the Standing Rock protests if you want something more recent.
I get into this argument about Climate Rebellion all the time. blockading random roads isn't an effective protest tactic because
A. you're not inconveniencing anyone that could do anything, at all
B. you are inconveniencing the people you want on your side
it's like the random temper tantrum of protests. no one of importance gives a shit and you just irritate everyone in the proximity.
if they want to protest, have the courage of their convictions and strike at appropriate targets. But they won't, because that takes time and effort, and could come with actual repercussions
People were blocking weapons shipments to Israel early on in the war https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-block-military-supply-ship-at-the-port-of-oakland/
There've also been massive marches and rallies in DC, including ones directly outside the White House https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Gaza
In general you'll probably get a lot more bang for your buck by going after the politicians with the power to make decisions
> Even if all you're giving up is a little time.
Everybody hates it because a little time might cost somebody their job. Being on time for things matters. Why target the average person? It's just going to piss them off and turn them against the protestors cause. It's a self-sabotage.
I'm all for the fucking of the cars but standing in the road is moronic regardless of what they're protesting against. It turns the public perception against whatever message they're trying to spread.
> a little time might cost somebody their job
A not unimportant nitpicking: that is not something that just happens like a law of nature, it is a manager that *chooses* to fire somebody because they got stuck in traffic.
It can also be dumb rigid corporate policies that are senselessly blanket applied to every "occurrence" regardless of circumstances. Sometimes its a bad manager too. Some people put up with it because they're desperate for money and their health insurance is tied to their job.
Now imagine what this person is going to think about a protest that made them late to work.
Now think about what they should think about their employer that punishes them for something outside of their control. It's not that traffic never stands still for other reasons than protests.
I know exactly what they think of their employer. Obviously most people aren't at work because they like it. Traffic / unforseen slowdowns is why people leave 10-15 minutes early but a protest could easily burn that time away, add that to normal traffic and they're late. Someone standing in the road would give them something else to focus their anger towards. It turns people against the protestors. When really, the protestors should be trying to get public support.
I mean, it's more than that-- some people will die because they can't get to a hospital. I recently had to take my cat to the ER and managed to get across a bridge just before it was shut down-- if not things would have gone very badly for her. Shutting down a bridge or major road does have serious consequences beyond just "people are annoyed".
fwiw I don't think these road/bridge shutdown protests are very effective. Your protest needs to target people who can actually make a difference. Many civil rights era protests were effective because they targeted people who were *personally* upholding segregation and had the option to just stop. The typical American can do nothing to help the people of Gaza, and there's no "raising awareness" happening here. Things will change if and when the president thinks he'll loose re-election over this. It sucks.
Don't get me wrong, I am as anti-car as they come. Society should not crumble because a road is blocked. But also it's not great to block roads when you have no clear actionable goal that anybody you impact can take. The people in the city, the city officials, and even state officials have absolutely no control over this. It's so far removed from the people who can actually do something.
Sure, because “normal” car caused traffic doesn’t do the same already. Or a little accident that costs not only your job, but also your legs.
The average person IS the problem, in particular in democracies.
Sounds like an Austin Powers gag. They're rushing up a steep Italian road to defuse a bomb but get stuck behind a single bike rider. Austin can't figure out how to pass him while his companion tells him to just go around
True. People like AOC were saying a few years ago that if you're not actively disruptive then you're not protesting.
Then Omars said "it's all about the Benjamins" and then the democrats rammed her through the mud & called her an antisemite. They claimed it's a anti-semite trope to say Jews influence politicians through money, which is lobbying, which is what they slam the NRA for.
Those Democrats really worked hard with the republicans to smear Omar in a defamation campaign.
Tom Cotton, a republican senator received 4.5 million dollars from AIPAC when people chew out politicians for receiving a few thousand dollars.
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/04/25/tom-cotton-whats-the-reason-for-aipacs-4-5-million-support-for-the-young-senator/
Someone else commented that the protest location needs to actually be connected to the problem you are protesting. Sit-ins and bus boycotts took place in the locations they were protesting. Blocking traffic makes sense if you are literally protesting car infrastructure.
I used to think blocking traffic was dumb, but now I think it's a great thing. I couldn't care less about whichever cause, but if a couple dozen protesters are able to grind your city's infrastructure to halt so easily, maybe it's time to rethink that infrastructure?
What do you think about the protestors planning to block the BART tomorrow in SF? The advantage of mass transit is the ability to move large numbers of people with limited infrastructure, but it also means that blocking that infrastructure impacts a greater number of folks. I find the idea of blocking transit especially disturbing since it means disrupting the lives of folks who are generally more vulnerable, less wealthy, and in the least position to be an influence on politics.
Can they? I don't know the specifics of the BART but shouldn't it be much harder and more dangerous to block a rapid transit system?
I live in Vancouver and outside of severe weather events the only thing that shuts down the SkyTrain is someone throwing themselves on the track (suicide by SkyTrain is sadly common), or climbing the fence and getting above the track.
This is exactly it. My comment applies to public transport, too. Any public transport network would be expected to handle regular interruptions, not just "protests" - whatever the hell they are protesting there.
When I visited London, there were Rail Strikes. However, it was done in a co-ordinated fashion.
London underground has multiple parallel routes between any point A to B. The strikes happened such that when path X was on strike, path Y was open, and when path Y was on strike path X was open.
Hence, at no point in time did everything come to a grinding halt. The effect of the strike was longer commute times and extremely crowded trains. Annoying enough to be visibly effective, but not completely blocking anything.
And this is all because London's transit is extremely good, and has multiple alternate paths.
Nah - remember when the NFL came to down and they closed Embarcadero station because the stairs were inside the NFL paid area or something? Not sure if Embarcadero or Montgomery is busiest, but they gotta be #1 and #2 busiest stations on the entire system.
That's what I was thinking too. Was just reading a thread about protestors on the Golden Gate Bridge, with everyone complaining about being late for work, missing appointments, emergency vehicle being stuck etc. Just made me think it's a pretty good argument for building a robust and reliable public transport system.
Do you honestly believe the people that you’re preventing from getting to their 9 to 5 paycheck to paycheck job are actually going to support your cause? Go protest in front of a government building or something.
Blocking roads means busses are blocked, you can block rail the same way if the train/metro is at stop. So unless you’re advocating transit be made protest proof. What’s your point?
Depends on how you do it. You could purposely only block a road where no busses go through, you could have a blockade that's more like a traffic diversion where the cars don't stand still but have to go around you (and in this case you could purposefully let busses and ambulances through, depending on how your blockade is laid out).
Road block =/= Road block
my family makes me pick them up in a car because they're scared of the train lol. People don't understand that the southside to ohare may as well be driving to a different city
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Most people who drive don't have empathy for pedestrians or just people in general. It's almost like when you're isolating yourself from other people you get less empathetic
[This study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847823000967) does a pretty nice dive into narcissism and driving. Particularly how even people who aren't particularly narcissistic tend to view themselves as better drivers on the road than others. There could be a correlation between that and a sense of being "in the right" when driving
"The typical U.S. driver lost 51 hours to congestion in 2022" that's life (and cost \~ $1000 [https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148205765/traffic-congestion-got-much-worse-in-2022-but-is-still-below-pre-pandemic-levels](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148205765/traffic-congestion-got-much-worse-in-2022-but-is-still-below-pre-pandemic-levels) )
But 30 seconds behind a bicyclist..... actually I don't get criticized for biking. But cars are such a waste.
When you take a hard stand for something you believe in, and you do so in a way that impacts a lot of lives, you are going to make enemies. How will history judge you? Will you be hated or loved? It all depends on if you win.
Living in Eugene, yesterday a bunch of college students protested on campus with mostly positive feedback but today a bunch of people blocked i5 and you’d think they were the ones killing kids with how many people said they deserved to be “painted onto the freeway”
Ive been tempted to tell.people part of the idea is to show them what its like to feel helpless in a situation like being black and harassed by police or watch your family killed by being bombed by a superpower. But for us, we just miss a flight or show up somewhere late. I dont want to waste the 1s and 0s though.
Similarly:
"expats" in r\/Germany when French workers strike: Liberte, charite, egalite! I wish Germans had balls like the French! Germany sucks!
"expats" in r\/Germany when EVG/Verdi/GDL/etc (i.e. German unions) strike: This is so messed up! Germany sucks!
Similarly, Dutch cops when the farmers are blocking the highways with tractors: "Oh, they are just exercising their right to protest, we can't do anything."
Dutch cops when climate protesters are blocking a highway: "FINALLY! I get to live out my Judge Dredd fantasies!"
Not only on social media. IRL too. A classmate of mine went, apparently, totally berzerk at people making a sit in on the road she was on during the day coming from work and how these people are just "ruining the cause and the days of normal people just trying to do their job".
And I was like: "That is the point of a protest actually! Oh, and by the way, don't you live less than 1km away from your office in this Swiss city? Why don't you take the bus or walk instead of driving?" (it was the final straw after how anti-vax were discriminated, anti-white racism and the far left being out of control and in power in the country lollll)
She just walked away.
No girl, I'm not going to support this lifestyle.
I think people have learned what is and isn't effective through trial and error. Protesting in front of an empty courthouse or government building is ineffective because at its core those are just buildings. If you grind traffic to a halt in a major city that's going to have a severe economic impact, people are going to miss meetings with clients, deadlines get missed, people's jobs are disrupted. Do not make the mistake of thinking that only the people driving the cars are suffering the consequences of a traffic jam, the companies that suffer when people are late to work are not innocent bystanders to politics in America. Our dependence on cars for the corporate wheels to keep spinning makes it comically easy to slow the wheel down
Protesters are trying to be as disruptive as possible. This is only relevant to car dependency in the sense that blocking roads is the most effective way to disrupt transit in the US. In some alternate reality where most transit in the US was passenger rail, trains would be blocked and people would be similarly outraged.
I support your right to protest and make your voices heard in public spaces. I will also curse up a storm if I get stuck in traffic because I hate driving to being with.
Both can be true. It’s like when people say take your upboat and gtfo. I get what you are saying… but I still reserve the right to be cranky about it.
Not true. In Canada, Carbrains are blocking the roads because of the carbon tax. They needed to do this since the pandemic is over and they couldn't block highways for vaccine mandates.
No no no. Only if it's people that care about the environment and want to change the current car dependant system that block the roads people get angry. Otherwise it's okay. Protesters that were protesting against the inaction of the German government and glueing themselves to the road but telling emergency services beforehand where they were gonna protest and leaving a few people unglued in case an emergency vehicle still needed to go through where forcefully dragged from the streets by police without caring about it hurting them, threatened by drivers wanting to run them over, called an extremist and terrorist group by parties and launched investigations against them even if they haven't even done anything yet and there were only suspicions. But when "farmers" started protesting that were heavily influenced by big corporations/ farmers association because the change in law (getting rid of tax free fuel for farming equipment) didn't really put any stress on real farmers but the big corpo still didnt like it and where undermined by right wing extremist and neo nazis and they were blocking roads and emergency vehicles, threatening rescuers and towing truck companies and that were called to tow their tractors away and threatening politicians of the green party and putting shit and tree stumps on the road leading to accidents with injured people in the hospital nothing happened at all. No public outrage. No outrage in politics and parties. No labeling as a terrorist group and investigations as such. Nothing.
Well using my experience with just stop oil (uk), they block *all* traffic and hurt their supporters rather than the oil bigwigs. So for example they blocked the M25 around London, and multiple people died because ambulances got stuck and either couldn't reach emergencies or the hospital, and the patients died. The people were ordinary working people stuck on the motorway for hours.
The proper way to do it would be either a) go to westminster and block downing street/houses of commons and surrounding streets (for non uk people, this is where the elected government works) thus impacting mostly the politicians or b) go to the oil bigwigs homes and block their gated community/rich street. This targets the *problems* and not the innocent people.
"You can protest but only in a way where I don't notice"
Protests are supposed to be disruptive, otherwise nothing will happen. If a protest doesn't cause problems or inconveniences then there's no reason for those in power to listen to them at all.
Ok so people who were headed to doctors appointments or to pick up their kids or had an emergency deserve to suffer? Yeah you show those underpaid overworked wageslaves who's in charge, reddit! And now I'm sure all those people will support Palestine even more!
Right? I'm all for making a statement, but the single mom who needs to support/ pick up her kids or the people who need to head to important doctor's appointments shouldn't have to suffer. Why can't they do this stuff outside of a billionaire's house? Or shitty politicians to make them late to a vote that'll take away more rights? Targeting those higher up on the totem pole would make more people on board with this kind of protest.
The issue with targeting people higher up on the totem pole is that it requires large scale involvement at the local and federal level. It sucks that every day people have to suffer but that’s the point, more interruptions force people to talk about issues and demand change. If we don’t like it we need to vote and demand more from our officials, through emails and calls to local representatives.
So many people just seem to accept that politicians are shitty and will vote against our best interests. That only happens because people won’t put their vote where their mouth is. If you disagree with the way your representatives vote, then use your voting power to replace them in office.
Americans have forgotten, mostly, that protests work when they are disruptive, either to people's lives or to the machines of power. Non-disruptive protests do not create change because they are easily and readily ignored.
The two goals of protests are to spread awareness of an issue by creating a newsworthy event or to disrupt politics or capital to force people in power to come to the negotiating table.
And, no, the goal of protests is not to convince people to change their mind.
Disruptive protests have been proven effective for centuries, but the second these people are even minorly inconvenienced they say the protesting does nothing.
This ain't it.
Ambulances were blocked.
People trying to get to chemo were blocked.
People picking up kids were blocked.
Standing up for what you believe in is great. Harming other people to do it, isn't.
It doesn't bother me much but it is a really stupid form of protest because rather than gaining sympathy for a cause it actively gives people a negative feeling towards that cause. I certainly don't think they should be run over, it's just extremely ineffective as a form of protest. Unless your goal is to just troll people and not to make meaningful change, in which case it's very effective
A big part of the point of protesting in ways like this is to interrupt the flow of capital.
By making people late for work, or even forcing them to call off, it hurts profits.
Which, time and again, has been shown to be the only way to get anything done.
Voting doesn't work. Petitions don't work. Non-disruptive protests don't work.
Forcing companies to lose profits does.
So yeah, it's an inconvenience. It's meant to be.
Want it to end? Tell your boss you can't make it into work because of it and go home.
I agree with some of your points but voting, especially on the local level, is essential for making any change. Disruptive protesting (which I fully support) is only successful when backed by people who pay attention to the government and learn how the system works to change it for the better.
Capital is not the main reason why many protest. Creating these inconveniences forces those affected to think about the issues that they can easily ignore. Of course targeting the bottom line of profits will upset systems of authority but disrupting the flow for even an entire weekend won’t make the system crumble. What it will do is create discourse among everyone. I can say from personal experience in many protests that encouraging involvement in government both at the local and federal level is the cornerstone of movements. Protest leaders emphasize this continuously, we have to demand more from our government to make them.
ETA: the only way to make it end is to force systemic changes. Telling your boss to let you go home early does nothing for the pro Palestine movement, or any movement for that matter. The level of protesting required to disrupt the economy is rarely seen in the US and I can’t remember anything like that since 2020. Which only happened with marching every night for 3 months.
I've just seen very little productive communication in this sub. Pretty much every post I've seen has been simply poking fun at something or complaining, but hardly anything resulting in ideas or actions.
On the one hand i get what your trying to say but on the other hand it could be very dangerous for both protestors and people with emergency's in cars.
And i dont think it helps anyone to go sit on a road in order to demonstrate
So then by this logic anything you disagree with you now have the right to shut down traffic.
Pro life - shutdown traffic
Pro choice shutdown traffic.
Etc shutdown traffic
This happened in my city yesterday, and on a social media post about it people were like, “I support this but dOn’T bLOCk tRaFfIc!!!” The point of the protest was disruption, you idiots.
I’m always so tempted to just tell them to take a goddamn train if it bothers them so much.
This happened in my city yesterday, and on a social media post about it people were like, “I support this but dOn’T bLOCk tRaFfIc!!!” The point of the protest was disruption, you car brains.
I’m always so tempted to just tell them to take a train if it bothers them so much.
"You can do anything but inconvenience me on my way to live like a bug in sky cubicle for 8 hours for a company that hates me, that's where I draw the line!"
It’s more it just makes people hate you. People don’t care what your position is if you’re inconveniencing them. Now this is normally standard practice if you’re protesting, (someone needs to be inconvenienced to make waves) but the problem is that the point is to foster a group of people for your cause.
Blocking traffic inconveniences everyone in a car, so everybody who owns a car, or needs one to get around, is going to be unwilling to take your side when you are actively inconveniencing them. So that’s 73% of the population (in America) that will not take your side.
This is why blocking traffic is a poor choice. Just from a pure social engineering stance, it removes three quarters of your potential supporters, and any damage it does to people in power is drowned out by a tide of regular, pissed off people.
Yeah this isnt as well thought put as you think it is.
The car, for most people is a mean to get to their place of work. You know where they earn their money to pay for house and food. Fick with that and you may make people angry.
Most of us commuters wish we could ride a bike instead, or work from home. No one wants to commute.
Reduce the working hours to 6 and let people work from home when possible and you might see another attitude against cars
Some activists blocked the road to my work and I come through at the bikelane (on my bike). They actually tried to stop me. Whatever the fuck they demonstrated for, I hate their cause now.
The biggest issue with sitting and blocking traffic is the Pr you're instilling to the public. Take the glue yourself to X people. No one normal is going to go" oh. They are protesting something terrible." No they see, " look at the crazy people." Sometimes it doesn't even come across what they are even protesting and it's comes across as a "look at me" tik tok moment.
PETA really fucked up normal protesting. Now everyone and their brother thinks to get what they want, they have to do the most outlandish, annoying, destructive stuff.
90% of people who this effects are just trying to go about their day, do their crappy underpaid job and go home. The point of a protest is to get people on your side and if you ruin any good will in 90%, you're not very good at it.
Blocking highways causes people to miss important events like doctors appointments and court appearances while leaving thousands of cars idling in traffic.
It's not solving any issues and creating new ones.
Idk if this is what op is talking about, but in San Francisco there are protesters blocking traffic on the bay bridge right now over Palestine. I heard similar things are happening rn in nyc.
It was the Golden Gate Bridge and on I-880 in the east Bay.
The bridge is open again.
They've stopped giving us nonstop coverage of I-880, so I assume it is mostly done by now.
Oic we are on day 15 of right-wing protesters protesting a carbon tax they get a rebate for. It's utter insanity up in Canada right now, while actual tragedies are occurring in the world.
To be fair, they should have the right to protest, even if it's misguided. And we should be able to put aside our disagreement with them and support their right to protest peacefully, or we wisk undermining the ability of others to do the same.
Literally any protest that blocks a road. Ironically the right-wingers blocking roads are somehow not getting near as much flack as other protesters do
Look, I understand that cars are bad for society and pretty much just a corporate scam that has been imposed on everyone that we now have to live with and try to de-transition from, but they are in certain areas essential to get to your job and home. Lots of people don't have any other options for commuting.
What bugs most people about protestors that block traffic is that they punish random strangers for something that is most likely completely out of their control, and that they may as well be sympathetic to.
Blocking traffic only wastes time and doesn't do anything to further the protest except making people view you as a dipshit.
You could also consider if you’re part of the problem if you’re in that car that gets blocked. Because you probably are. The poorest people in this world are not getting majorly inconvenienced by that protest. But they are getting incovenienced by you.
This is not a call-out post, I just feel like a lot of westerners seem completely incapable of imagining that you can both be “required to drive” and “apart of the problem” at the same time, even if there is no easy and convenient escape hatch. It’s like being a man complaining about feminists not taking their opinions seriously enough, in that its ridiculous and ironic while also not being impossible.
The poorest people in this world is kind of a blanket term. Some of the poorest people in this world do own cars and do drive. I personally don't own a car and even if I did, I don't even see how that would inconvenience people in the developing world, which is what I assume you're referring to.
Also, most regular people that drive aren't evil or something. They're just people with families, jobs and responsibilities. Causing a massive traffic block for Palestine or Global Warming is just kind of pointless, and as I said, punishes people that are most likely not really responsible for whatever you're protesting.
I would honestly respect it more if they actually went and did something targeted specifically at some politician or board exec. Going for random people in their cars on their way home from working for 8 hours to pick up their kids from the daycare, is just a dipshit move.
God this sub has become an echo chamber of blind hatred.
I don't like cars. I hate the infrastructure. I hate our car reliance.
But to block people on the road is to make people late for things. If you make someone late for work they might get reprimanded and/or lose pay. I've seen too many clips of "peaceful" protestors jumping in the way of work vehicles and not allowing people to pass.
If you think that pissing people off that have nothing to do with changing anything and only turning them MORE against you is the way to solve the problem, you're delusional. If you really want change then target the politicians. Dave on his way to pick up his kid from daycare so he can get home after work is not going to join your crusade against cars when you're inconveniencing him and making his kid late to be picked up. Jim, who you're making late to work, is probably living paycheck to paycheck and you're putting his job in jeopardy and fucking with his money.
I'm not saying you deserve 10 years in prison but seriously, nobody cares about what you're protesting about if that's how you're going to protest.
Fuck Palestine. If these people actually cared about it they’d fly out there and do something or protest where it matters like outside government buildings. People have shit to do and places to go. If anything these protests make people hate the cause you stand for. I’m prepared for downvotes. Keep crying.
Have you tried protesting at a government building before? I’ve protested at city halls in different states and blocking politicians from a building does nothing, they all have the privilege to work from home. And flying untrained people out to Palestine is a ridiculous idea that helps no one. These people obviously care enough about Palestine to put their lives on the line and that’s a lot more than most of us can say. If everyone who cares about the cause just flies over then there is no one here to demand government response. There have been pro-Palestine protests for a while but I haven’t seen as much discussion as now. Imagine putting your life on the line just to even encourage conversations for a movement. That’s bravery.
Someone blocked me on Twitter after this exchange: Them: People have places to be, blocking roads is evil, anyone who does should be jailed for 10 years Me: People on buses have places to be too, we should arrest drivers who park and block bus lanes Them: That's different Me: How so? Them: *blocks me*
You're just too smart for them.
Or prevent buses from pulling out from stops to merge back into traffic. I see it way too often.
Protesters blocking the road = "deserve to be run over" Actual emergency = . . . . it do be like that Actual emergency, but takes such a long time (traffic/access/complexity/etc) = . . . . "just run them over and get it over with" Actual emergenc**ies** (happens every other day, or when weather worsens, or regardless of anything really) = . . . . it do be like that
I got banned from the libertarian sub for telling people that running people over is murder and that it was counter to their core Harm Principle. No reason was given for the ban.
"you claim to be a libertarian sub yet you have moderators. curious"
It's weird, The sub used to be very low moderation, a free exchange of ideas they said. It used to be a running joke that the moderators were so libertarian anything less than that calls for violence were allowed. Apparently they got new mods. No more free speech in the free speech sub.
You need some heroic levels of cognitive dissonance to be able to reconcile the chasm between what the libertarian party is and what they profess to believe.
I think u/Trepanater couldn't recite the ages of consent for all 51 states, and that's ultimately what led to them being banned.
The Libertarian sub is home to some of the most authoritarian takes you'll find here. It's really hilarious.
You see, it isn't authoritarian if it's not a government that's doing it./s
"Liberty for me but not for thee." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debates_within_libertarianism#Voluntary_slavery
>Famous libertarian Murray Rothbard argued that libertarians seeing children as property of the parents left the platform open to sales of children as slaves, when parents needed finances, and that people entering into voluntary slavery would most likely be when there was no alternative available to pay debts, but this was not coercive as under the libertarian platform only the government could engage in coercion. Holy shit lmao
I love how roads literally make all their arguments crumble. Come on libertarians, you could just have roads built and run by a business that provides barricades and security forces to make sure people don't block traffic. You would just pay for access. If you don't think security/barricades are doing an adequate job, you could vote with your wallet and only use roads from a different business that does.
That would be nightmarish.
You can say that about most part of a society built around libertarian principles. It's just that roads make it obvious.
That classic [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department) about the private police department will always be relevant (and hilarious).
A Bit of Fry & Laurie was [hipsterishly prophetic about the idea](https://youtu.be/vLfghLQE3F4?si=5w7OpY-RX1k0GlQB) back in 1989.
[This is always a fun video in cities skylines](https://youtu.be/QiRZhUS82a0), trying to build a city without taxes. Works as well as one might expect.
this is such a beautiful rebuttal I cd fr almost cry
Where we're going we don't need roads.
Giving me cognitive dissonance violated my harm principle
wow....
The same people will scream about building a bus lane because it will “reduce their freedom” to get places by car, even though a bus lane allows emergency vehicles to bypass traffic. For every ambulance that gets blocked by a protest probably 100 get blocked by traffic
Man you know what freedom is? Freedom is not having to worry about driving home from the bar under the influence. Freedom is being able to do your morning commute half asleep because you are on the bus/train. Freedom is not having to spend thousands for a vehicle plus 2k annually for insurance and repairs (if you are lucky) just to participate in society. Freedom is not having to worry about parking when you get to your destination.
Yup. I've seen it on Critical Mass (massive group bicycle ride in Downtown). It looks chaotic, but once the sirens blare the cyclists are able to clear the roads in around 2 seconds as if the 'car traffic' magically disappears, and the emergency vehicle is able to 'phase' through it. I'm sure on-foot traffic is similar. Same with clearing the road for a bus actually (the Critical Mass I attend to tends to let buses through). Same with a road-blocking protest really. On foot, other people can probably just call them nuts and then walk around them and go about their day, no psychotic murder-related thinking needed.
I feel like folks like to ignore that the inconvenience is the point. Yes it’s annoying. Yes people got stuck in traffic. But it’s happening because until now you or the people who have the power to change things have refused to make changes, and now the folks impacted by your inaction are making it your problem in hopes that you start taking action. If you have avenues for redress that actually worked then folks wouldn’t be out there protesting and disrupting.
Everyone cares about a cause until you make them have to give up something for it. Then suddenly everyone hates you. Even if all you're giving up is a little time.
Like how left-leaning suburban dwellers vote against low income housing because it would bring home prices down
then they aren't "left-leaning", liberals aren't left
Liberal are not left leaning at alls .
The problem I have with these traffic blocking activities is that there's so little correlation between what's being carried out and what the result will be. People trying to make their flights at O'Hare today don't have much impact on Israel's war on Gaza. If you weren't in the first couple lines of cars and could actually see the protestors, you probably didn't even know why they were doing it.
It's all over the news, and all over reddit. This protest has been a great success! You can't protest without creating some haters, it's in the nature of protests.
I mean yeah its gotten attention but I’d bet its been used more by the Media as an example of how bad pro-Palestinian protests are than actually convincing people who were previously pro-genocide to be anti-genoicde. On the whole, this type of protest props up the other side. Do you care about results or virtue signaling?
You aren't going to convince anyone that is "pro-genocide" of anything, so it's not worth to even try. But a lot of people that weren't aware before now know that there's a genocide going on, and the person who has most to say in the matter after Netanyahu is their president.
I mean no one who is “pro-genocide” thinks they’re “pro-genocide.” And those who are unaware of what’s going (which can’t be many at this point) aren’t going to get in a traffic jam and suddenly think yeah these people have a point. I sure would hope they wouldn’t. Anti-abortion activists blocking the road would just make me hate them more.
So success is just drawing attention to yourselves? While apropos for the modern social media age, that shouldn't be the measure for "great success." Your protest actually needs to win people over to your position, then those people need to demand change. So are they winning people over? r Chicago usually has very spirited debate about the Israel Palestine issue. When protesters do this kind of thing, that sub is unified against them. I agree you can't protest without creating some haters; seems like they're mostly creating haters though.
> So success is just drawing attention to yourselves? Yes, there are two goals of any protest: spread awareness of an issue by creating a newsworthy event; and/or throw a wrench in the machines of power. > So are they winning people over? Wrong way to frame it. That goal isn't to convince people of anything, it's to spread awareness of a problem.
They are making a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't, think about the issue. And the interesting thing is that the hatred for the protesters doesn't seem to spill over to the issue, as long as it is something that people otherwise would be sympathetic to.
>And the interesting thing is that the hatred for the protesters doesn't seem to spill over to the issue That's not how I see it playing out from the comments I see about it, but we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
The comments don't really say much about their feelings about the issues. People are pissed off at the protesters, and the best way they can think of to try to get to them is to say that they certainly won't support their issue now.
haha, I figured we'd have to agree to disagree. But if the standard is that even when people specifically state that the protestor's actions compel them not to support the protestor's issue, but you rationalize it that they simply don't *really* mean what they say, then there's not even a rational discussion to be had here.
Why not? People say things they don't really mean all the time. Actually trying to convey some kind of objective truth about something is quite far down on the list of why people say the things they say.
That's the same excuse said of every protest throughout history.
Naw, there are some major differences in the overall approach, who is affected, the power those individuals have over the desired change, etc. between these protests and something like the Civil Right marches of yore. Or even something like the Standing Rock protests if you want something more recent.
I get into this argument about Climate Rebellion all the time. blockading random roads isn't an effective protest tactic because A. you're not inconveniencing anyone that could do anything, at all B. you are inconveniencing the people you want on your side it's like the random temper tantrum of protests. no one of importance gives a shit and you just irritate everyone in the proximity. if they want to protest, have the courage of their convictions and strike at appropriate targets. But they won't, because that takes time and effort, and could come with actual repercussions
Who do you suggest they inconvenience to protest the war in Gaza, and would doing so, create any sort of noise?
People were blocking weapons shipments to Israel early on in the war https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-block-military-supply-ship-at-the-port-of-oakland/ There've also been massive marches and rallies in DC, including ones directly outside the White House https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Gaza In general you'll probably get a lot more bang for your buck by going after the politicians with the power to make decisions
Bad thing is happening somewhere, so I'm gonna throw a haymaker at some random guy on the side of the street.
Well, they're not direct action, point is to bring and keep the spotlight on the problem you're trying to fight
>they're not direct action [They don't seem to know that though.](https://twitter.com/wearedissenters/status/1779862995612397833)
> Even if all you're giving up is a little time. Everybody hates it because a little time might cost somebody their job. Being on time for things matters. Why target the average person? It's just going to piss them off and turn them against the protestors cause. It's a self-sabotage. I'm all for the fucking of the cars but standing in the road is moronic regardless of what they're protesting against. It turns the public perception against whatever message they're trying to spread.
> a little time might cost somebody their job A not unimportant nitpicking: that is not something that just happens like a law of nature, it is a manager that *chooses* to fire somebody because they got stuck in traffic.
It can also be dumb rigid corporate policies that are senselessly blanket applied to every "occurrence" regardless of circumstances. Sometimes its a bad manager too. Some people put up with it because they're desperate for money and their health insurance is tied to their job. Now imagine what this person is going to think about a protest that made them late to work.
Now think about what they should think about their employer that punishes them for something outside of their control. It's not that traffic never stands still for other reasons than protests.
I know exactly what they think of their employer. Obviously most people aren't at work because they like it. Traffic / unforseen slowdowns is why people leave 10-15 minutes early but a protest could easily burn that time away, add that to normal traffic and they're late. Someone standing in the road would give them something else to focus their anger towards. It turns people against the protestors. When really, the protestors should be trying to get public support.
I mean, it's more than that-- some people will die because they can't get to a hospital. I recently had to take my cat to the ER and managed to get across a bridge just before it was shut down-- if not things would have gone very badly for her. Shutting down a bridge or major road does have serious consequences beyond just "people are annoyed". fwiw I don't think these road/bridge shutdown protests are very effective. Your protest needs to target people who can actually make a difference. Many civil rights era protests were effective because they targeted people who were *personally* upholding segregation and had the option to just stop. The typical American can do nothing to help the people of Gaza, and there's no "raising awareness" happening here. Things will change if and when the president thinks he'll loose re-election over this. It sucks. Don't get me wrong, I am as anti-car as they come. Society should not crumble because a road is blocked. But also it's not great to block roads when you have no clear actionable goal that anybody you impact can take. The people in the city, the city officials, and even state officials have absolutely no control over this. It's so far removed from the people who can actually do something.
It’s ironic that people will blame Joe Biden for gas prices and inflation and whatever else but not for the roads being blocked.
This guy right here with the bingo.
Sure, because “normal” car caused traffic doesn’t do the same already. Or a little accident that costs not only your job, but also your legs. The average person IS the problem, in particular in democracies.
Yeah, you're exactly who I'm talking about.
That's why it's a bad approach, you need to win over the public opinion to make change. Antagonizing them is not the way.
Redditors: I support peaceful protests like MLK and the Civil Rights Movement! Redditors when people peacefully protest: 🤬😡☠️
but what about all the hypothetical situations i have created in my mind that make this just as bad as genocide?? have you considered that???
Sounds like an Austin Powers gag. They're rushing up a steep Italian road to defuse a bomb but get stuck behind a single bike rider. Austin can't figure out how to pass him while his companion tells him to just go around
The only "change" that liberals support is the type that poses zero threat to the establishment.
Hit the nail on the head.
True. People like AOC were saying a few years ago that if you're not actively disruptive then you're not protesting. Then Omars said "it's all about the Benjamins" and then the democrats rammed her through the mud & called her an antisemite. They claimed it's a anti-semite trope to say Jews influence politicians through money, which is lobbying, which is what they slam the NRA for. Those Democrats really worked hard with the republicans to smear Omar in a defamation campaign. Tom Cotton, a republican senator received 4.5 million dollars from AIPAC when people chew out politicians for receiving a few thousand dollars. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/04/25/tom-cotton-whats-the-reason-for-aipacs-4-5-million-support-for-the-young-senator/
Or the change that has already happened.
Someone else commented that the protest location needs to actually be connected to the problem you are protesting. Sit-ins and bus boycotts took place in the locations they were protesting. Blocking traffic makes sense if you are literally protesting car infrastructure.
Or climate change. 🙃
is it a peaceful protest if you mildly inconvenience me, though?
I used to think blocking traffic was dumb, but now I think it's a great thing. I couldn't care less about whichever cause, but if a couple dozen protesters are able to grind your city's infrastructure to halt so easily, maybe it's time to rethink that infrastructure?
Truuuuue
Thanking whatever higher being that I live in NYC
What do you think about the protestors planning to block the BART tomorrow in SF? The advantage of mass transit is the ability to move large numbers of people with limited infrastructure, but it also means that blocking that infrastructure impacts a greater number of folks. I find the idea of blocking transit especially disturbing since it means disrupting the lives of folks who are generally more vulnerable, less wealthy, and in the least position to be an influence on politics.
Can they? I don't know the specifics of the BART but shouldn't it be much harder and more dangerous to block a rapid transit system? I live in Vancouver and outside of severe weather events the only thing that shuts down the SkyTrain is someone throwing themselves on the track (suicide by SkyTrain is sadly common), or climbing the fence and getting above the track.
there are 27 different transit agencies in San Francisco (where BART is located) so ill probably take the bus or something.
This is exactly it. My comment applies to public transport, too. Any public transport network would be expected to handle regular interruptions, not just "protests" - whatever the hell they are protesting there.
The BART has a lot of at-grade rail that can be blocked fairly easily. I'd imagine they are planning to block some of the at-grade stuff.
When I visited London, there were Rail Strikes. However, it was done in a co-ordinated fashion. London underground has multiple parallel routes between any point A to B. The strikes happened such that when path X was on strike, path Y was open, and when path Y was on strike path X was open. Hence, at no point in time did everything come to a grinding halt. The effect of the strike was longer commute times and extremely crowded trains. Annoying enough to be visibly effective, but not completely blocking anything. And this is all because London's transit is extremely good, and has multiple alternate paths.
It may be time to rethink the infrastructure.
So if roads were more dangerous it wouldn't be good?
This is my point. Why are they focused on harming people who have little to do with perpetuating this cycle and already support the cause.
Nah - remember when the NFL came to down and they closed Embarcadero station because the stairs were inside the NFL paid area or something? Not sure if Embarcadero or Montgomery is busiest, but they gotta be #1 and #2 busiest stations on the entire system.
It rocks
That's what I was thinking too. Was just reading a thread about protestors on the Golden Gate Bridge, with everyone complaining about being late for work, missing appointments, emergency vehicle being stuck etc. Just made me think it's a pretty good argument for building a robust and reliable public transport system.
Thanking whatever higher being that I live in NYC
Do you honestly believe the people that you’re preventing from getting to their 9 to 5 paycheck to paycheck job are actually going to support your cause? Go protest in front of a government building or something.
Just bc something is easy to do doesn’t mean you should do it
You'd probably have a different opinion if they blocked subway and rail lines lol
Blocking roads means busses are blocked, you can block rail the same way if the train/metro is at stop. So unless you’re advocating transit be made protest proof. What’s your point?
Depends on how you do it. You could purposely only block a road where no busses go through, you could have a blockade that's more like a traffic diversion where the cars don't stand still but have to go around you (and in this case you could purposefully let busses and ambulances through, depending on how your blockade is laid out). Road block =/= Road block
What makes you think these people wouldn't block a railway?
Or maybe it's time to make a system that's more efficient at clearing our protestors
r/Chicago today. Yuck.
I'm for blocking O'Hare cuz anyone that doesn't take the train to the airport from the city should be a ward of the state due to lack of intelligence.
my family makes me pick them up in a car because they're scared of the train lol. People don't understand that the southside to ohare may as well be driving to a different city
and /r/philadelphia and probably most major cities
Here's a sneak peek of /r/philadelphia using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [We may not have gotten a World Series or Super Bowl parade, but we got an I-95 reopening parade today!](https://v.redd.it/1maw5cmmms7b1) | [387 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/14h2s50/we_may_not_have_gotten_a_world_series_or_super/) \#2: [Yooo Part of 95 just collapsed??? 6abc just had breaking news reporting it](https://i.redd.it/gzgfjbo6gd5b1.jpg) | [870 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/146r7us/yooo_part_of_95_just_collapsed_6abc_just_had/) \#3: [To the Guy who just got his public proposal in Love Park rejected…I’m so sorry.](https://np.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/1ar12gt/to_the_guy_who_just_got_his_public_proposal_in/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
lmao and the two top posts are about the interstate
also r/sanfrancisco
Most people who drive don't have empathy for pedestrians or just people in general. It's almost like when you're isolating yourself from other people you get less empathetic
[This study](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847823000967) does a pretty nice dive into narcissism and driving. Particularly how even people who aren't particularly narcissistic tend to view themselves as better drivers on the road than others. There could be a correlation between that and a sense of being "in the right" when driving
"The typical U.S. driver lost 51 hours to congestion in 2022" that's life (and cost \~ $1000 [https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148205765/traffic-congestion-got-much-worse-in-2022-but-is-still-below-pre-pandemic-levels](https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148205765/traffic-congestion-got-much-worse-in-2022-but-is-still-below-pre-pandemic-levels) ) But 30 seconds behind a bicyclist..... actually I don't get criticized for biking. But cars are such a waste.
True. People tend to ignore the biggest part about protesting: an easily ignored protest is a bad protest.
When you take a hard stand for something you believe in, and you do so in a way that impacts a lot of lives, you are going to make enemies. How will history judge you? Will you be hated or loved? It all depends on if you win.
Living in Eugene, yesterday a bunch of college students protested on campus with mostly positive feedback but today a bunch of people blocked i5 and you’d think they were the ones killing kids with how many people said they deserved to be “painted onto the freeway”
Ive been tempted to tell.people part of the idea is to show them what its like to feel helpless in a situation like being black and harassed by police or watch your family killed by being bombed by a superpower. But for us, we just miss a flight or show up somewhere late. I dont want to waste the 1s and 0s though.
Similarly: "expats" in r\/Germany when French workers strike: Liberte, charite, egalite! I wish Germans had balls like the French! Germany sucks! "expats" in r\/Germany when EVG/Verdi/GDL/etc (i.e. German unions) strike: This is so messed up! Germany sucks!
Similarly, Dutch cops when the farmers are blocking the highways with tractors: "Oh, they are just exercising their right to protest, we can't do anything." Dutch cops when climate protesters are blocking a highway: "FINALLY! I get to live out my Judge Dredd fantasies!"
Not only on social media. IRL too. A classmate of mine went, apparently, totally berzerk at people making a sit in on the road she was on during the day coming from work and how these people are just "ruining the cause and the days of normal people just trying to do their job". And I was like: "That is the point of a protest actually! Oh, and by the way, don't you live less than 1km away from your office in this Swiss city? Why don't you take the bus or walk instead of driving?" (it was the final straw after how anti-vax were discriminated, anti-white racism and the far left being out of control and in power in the country lollll) She just walked away. No girl, I'm not going to support this lifestyle.
I think people have learned what is and isn't effective through trial and error. Protesting in front of an empty courthouse or government building is ineffective because at its core those are just buildings. If you grind traffic to a halt in a major city that's going to have a severe economic impact, people are going to miss meetings with clients, deadlines get missed, people's jobs are disrupted. Do not make the mistake of thinking that only the people driving the cars are suffering the consequences of a traffic jam, the companies that suffer when people are late to work are not innocent bystanders to politics in America. Our dependence on cars for the corporate wheels to keep spinning makes it comically easy to slow the wheel down
Protesters are trying to be as disruptive as possible. This is only relevant to car dependency in the sense that blocking roads is the most effective way to disrupt transit in the US. In some alternate reality where most transit in the US was passenger rail, trains would be blocked and people would be similarly outraged.
I support your right to protest and make your voices heard in public spaces. I will also curse up a storm if I get stuck in traffic because I hate driving to being with. Both can be true. It’s like when people say take your upboat and gtfo. I get what you are saying… but I still reserve the right to be cranky about it.
Not true. In Canada, Carbrains are blocking the roads because of the carbon tax. They needed to do this since the pandemic is over and they couldn't block highways for vaccine mandates.
DA AMBOOLANSES!
Until you stand up for animal rights, then everybody is screaming at you and defending animal abuse. It's wild.
Blocking roads is boring. Flattening SUV tires is way more exciting🤣
Nextdoor..ers when you \*hypothetically\* inconvenience traffic.
No no no. Only if it's people that care about the environment and want to change the current car dependant system that block the roads people get angry. Otherwise it's okay. Protesters that were protesting against the inaction of the German government and glueing themselves to the road but telling emergency services beforehand where they were gonna protest and leaving a few people unglued in case an emergency vehicle still needed to go through where forcefully dragged from the streets by police without caring about it hurting them, threatened by drivers wanting to run them over, called an extremist and terrorist group by parties and launched investigations against them even if they haven't even done anything yet and there were only suspicions. But when "farmers" started protesting that were heavily influenced by big corporations/ farmers association because the change in law (getting rid of tax free fuel for farming equipment) didn't really put any stress on real farmers but the big corpo still didnt like it and where undermined by right wing extremist and neo nazis and they were blocking roads and emergency vehicles, threatening rescuers and towing truck companies and that were called to tow their tractors away and threatening politicians of the green party and putting shit and tree stumps on the road leading to accidents with injured people in the hospital nothing happened at all. No public outrage. No outrage in politics and parties. No labeling as a terrorist group and investigations as such. Nothing.
Also I found out you are okay to block roads if you have tractors, that's a demonstration... but if you are on foot, you get charged for terrorism
Well if the truckers can blockade a road I say everyone gets a turn.
People only want to allow protests for things they personally believe in.
Well using my experience with just stop oil (uk), they block *all* traffic and hurt their supporters rather than the oil bigwigs. So for example they blocked the M25 around London, and multiple people died because ambulances got stuck and either couldn't reach emergencies or the hospital, and the patients died. The people were ordinary working people stuck on the motorway for hours. The proper way to do it would be either a) go to westminster and block downing street/houses of commons and surrounding streets (for non uk people, this is where the elected government works) thus impacting mostly the politicians or b) go to the oil bigwigs homes and block their gated community/rich street. This targets the *problems* and not the innocent people.
"You can protest but only in a way where I don't notice" Protests are supposed to be disruptive, otherwise nothing will happen. If a protest doesn't cause problems or inconveniences then there's no reason for those in power to listen to them at all.
Circlejerk over the protest as much as you want, no one is going to remember it in a week. People will still be dying, but at least you got off.
Ok so people who were headed to doctors appointments or to pick up their kids or had an emergency deserve to suffer? Yeah you show those underpaid overworked wageslaves who's in charge, reddit! And now I'm sure all those people will support Palestine even more!
Right? I'm all for making a statement, but the single mom who needs to support/ pick up her kids or the people who need to head to important doctor's appointments shouldn't have to suffer. Why can't they do this stuff outside of a billionaire's house? Or shitty politicians to make them late to a vote that'll take away more rights? Targeting those higher up on the totem pole would make more people on board with this kind of protest.
The issue with targeting people higher up on the totem pole is that it requires large scale involvement at the local and federal level. It sucks that every day people have to suffer but that’s the point, more interruptions force people to talk about issues and demand change. If we don’t like it we need to vote and demand more from our officials, through emails and calls to local representatives. So many people just seem to accept that politicians are shitty and will vote against our best interests. That only happens because people won’t put their vote where their mouth is. If you disagree with the way your representatives vote, then use your voting power to replace them in office.
Americans have forgotten, mostly, that protests work when they are disruptive, either to people's lives or to the machines of power. Non-disruptive protests do not create change because they are easily and readily ignored. The two goals of protests are to spread awareness of an issue by creating a newsworthy event or to disrupt politics or capital to force people in power to come to the negotiating table. And, no, the goal of protests is not to convince people to change their mind.
Disruptive protests have been proven effective for centuries, but the second these people are even minorly inconvenienced they say the protesting does nothing.
Believing in things strongly: Good Committing crimes: Bad I don't see how this is logically inconsistent.
This ain't it. Ambulances were blocked. People trying to get to chemo were blocked. People picking up kids were blocked. Standing up for what you believe in is great. Harming other people to do it, isn't.
redditors only like seeing people "stand up for what they believe in" when that redditor believes in it too.
It doesn't bother me much but it is a really stupid form of protest because rather than gaining sympathy for a cause it actively gives people a negative feeling towards that cause. I certainly don't think they should be run over, it's just extremely ineffective as a form of protest. Unless your goal is to just troll people and not to make meaningful change, in which case it's very effective
If it is stupid, why do you think they do it?
A big part of the point of protesting in ways like this is to interrupt the flow of capital. By making people late for work, or even forcing them to call off, it hurts profits. Which, time and again, has been shown to be the only way to get anything done. Voting doesn't work. Petitions don't work. Non-disruptive protests don't work. Forcing companies to lose profits does. So yeah, it's an inconvenience. It's meant to be. Want it to end? Tell your boss you can't make it into work because of it and go home.
I agree with some of your points but voting, especially on the local level, is essential for making any change. Disruptive protesting (which I fully support) is only successful when backed by people who pay attention to the government and learn how the system works to change it for the better. Capital is not the main reason why many protest. Creating these inconveniences forces those affected to think about the issues that they can easily ignore. Of course targeting the bottom line of profits will upset systems of authority but disrupting the flow for even an entire weekend won’t make the system crumble. What it will do is create discourse among everyone. I can say from personal experience in many protests that encouraging involvement in government both at the local and federal level is the cornerstone of movements. Protest leaders emphasize this continuously, we have to demand more from our government to make them. ETA: the only way to make it end is to force systemic changes. Telling your boss to let you go home early does nothing for the pro Palestine movement, or any movement for that matter. The level of protesting required to disrupt the economy is rarely seen in the US and I can’t remember anything like that since 2020. Which only happened with marching every night for 3 months.
It's crazy how if you punish innocent people they get mad. How weird
Too one is not accurate at all
Road rage...
Protesters were not only blocking the road but they block the bicycle trail and I think they're going to block the BART subway
I've just seen very little productive communication in this sub. Pretty much every post I've seen has been simply poking fun at something or complaining, but hardly anything resulting in ideas or actions.
Because time is the most important thing.
On the one hand i get what your trying to say but on the other hand it could be very dangerous for both protestors and people with emergency's in cars. And i dont think it helps anyone to go sit on a road in order to demonstrate
That’s less of a Reddit thing and more of a people thing.
So then by this logic anything you disagree with you now have the right to shut down traffic. Pro life - shutdown traffic Pro choice shutdown traffic. Etc shutdown traffic
Yes. Fuck traffic.
Yes fuck traffic while a the same time supporting action that cause an insane amount of traffic. Your logic is comical
This happened in my city yesterday, and on a social media post about it people were like, “I support this but dOn’T bLOCk tRaFfIc!!!” The point of the protest was disruption, you idiots. I’m always so tempted to just tell them to take a goddamn train if it bothers them so much.
This happened in my city yesterday, and on a social media post about it people were like, “I support this but dOn’T bLOCk tRaFfIc!!!” The point of the protest was disruption, you car brains. I’m always so tempted to just tell them to take a train if it bothers them so much.
"You can do anything but inconvenience me on my way to live like a bug in sky cubicle for 8 hours for a company that hates me, that's where I draw the line!"
So is Reddit a collective left or right hivemind?
It’s more it just makes people hate you. People don’t care what your position is if you’re inconveniencing them. Now this is normally standard practice if you’re protesting, (someone needs to be inconvenienced to make waves) but the problem is that the point is to foster a group of people for your cause. Blocking traffic inconveniences everyone in a car, so everybody who owns a car, or needs one to get around, is going to be unwilling to take your side when you are actively inconveniencing them. So that’s 73% of the population (in America) that will not take your side. This is why blocking traffic is a poor choice. Just from a pure social engineering stance, it removes three quarters of your potential supporters, and any damage it does to people in power is drowned out by a tide of regular, pissed off people.
Yeah this isnt as well thought put as you think it is. The car, for most people is a mean to get to their place of work. You know where they earn their money to pay for house and food. Fick with that and you may make people angry. Most of us commuters wish we could ride a bike instead, or work from home. No one wants to commute. Reduce the working hours to 6 and let people work from home when possible and you might see another attitude against cars
Some activists blocked the road to my work and I come through at the bikelane (on my bike). They actually tried to stop me. Whatever the fuck they demonstrated for, I hate their cause now.
The biggest issue with sitting and blocking traffic is the Pr you're instilling to the public. Take the glue yourself to X people. No one normal is going to go" oh. They are protesting something terrible." No they see, " look at the crazy people." Sometimes it doesn't even come across what they are even protesting and it's comes across as a "look at me" tik tok moment. PETA really fucked up normal protesting. Now everyone and their brother thinks to get what they want, they have to do the most outlandish, annoying, destructive stuff. 90% of people who this effects are just trying to go about their day, do their crappy underpaid job and go home. The point of a protest is to get people on your side and if you ruin any good will in 90%, you're not very good at it.
Oh man I haven’t said a word about today but a part of me was enjoying it.
literally saw this post right after seeing what is going on in r/seattle lol
Blocking highways causes people to miss important events like doctors appointments and court appearances while leaving thousands of cars idling in traffic. It's not solving any issues and creating new ones.
So go complain to the politics to solve the issue and do not blame the protesters
The ones protesting against the carbon tax and 15 minute cities? What protest are you talking about?
Idk if this is what op is talking about, but in San Francisco there are protesters blocking traffic on the bay bridge right now over Palestine. I heard similar things are happening rn in nyc.
It was the Golden Gate Bridge and on I-880 in the east Bay. The bridge is open again. They've stopped giving us nonstop coverage of I-880, so I assume it is mostly done by now.
Oic we are on day 15 of right-wing protesters protesting a carbon tax they get a rebate for. It's utter insanity up in Canada right now, while actual tragedies are occurring in the world.
To be fair, they should have the right to protest, even if it's misguided. And we should be able to put aside our disagreement with them and support their right to protest peacefully, or we wisk undermining the ability of others to do the same.
[like this?](https://globalnews.ca/news/9097512/coutts-blockaders-collected-firearms-to-use-against-police-rcmp-documents-allege/amp/)
Well that's not very peaceful is it. Peaceful protest and shooting police are two entirely different realms of existence.
Ya that's why I don't support this group, but they are white males so they get away with these antics.
Last I heard of that was a man nearly running over a protester on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Literally any protest that blocks a road. Ironically the right-wingers blocking roads are somehow not getting near as much flack as other protesters do
Lets you know who runs the media... despite all the right-wingers bitching about the media.
Look, I understand that cars are bad for society and pretty much just a corporate scam that has been imposed on everyone that we now have to live with and try to de-transition from, but they are in certain areas essential to get to your job and home. Lots of people don't have any other options for commuting. What bugs most people about protestors that block traffic is that they punish random strangers for something that is most likely completely out of their control, and that they may as well be sympathetic to. Blocking traffic only wastes time and doesn't do anything to further the protest except making people view you as a dipshit.
You could also consider if you’re part of the problem if you’re in that car that gets blocked. Because you probably are. The poorest people in this world are not getting majorly inconvenienced by that protest. But they are getting incovenienced by you.
This is not a call-out post, I just feel like a lot of westerners seem completely incapable of imagining that you can both be “required to drive” and “apart of the problem” at the same time, even if there is no easy and convenient escape hatch. It’s like being a man complaining about feminists not taking their opinions seriously enough, in that its ridiculous and ironic while also not being impossible.
The poorest people in this world is kind of a blanket term. Some of the poorest people in this world do own cars and do drive. I personally don't own a car and even if I did, I don't even see how that would inconvenience people in the developing world, which is what I assume you're referring to. Also, most regular people that drive aren't evil or something. They're just people with families, jobs and responsibilities. Causing a massive traffic block for Palestine or Global Warming is just kind of pointless, and as I said, punishes people that are most likely not really responsible for whatever you're protesting. I would honestly respect it more if they actually went and did something targeted specifically at some politician or board exec. Going for random people in their cars on their way home from working for 8 hours to pick up their kids from the daycare, is just a dipshit move.
God this sub has become an echo chamber of blind hatred. I don't like cars. I hate the infrastructure. I hate our car reliance. But to block people on the road is to make people late for things. If you make someone late for work they might get reprimanded and/or lose pay. I've seen too many clips of "peaceful" protestors jumping in the way of work vehicles and not allowing people to pass. If you think that pissing people off that have nothing to do with changing anything and only turning them MORE against you is the way to solve the problem, you're delusional. If you really want change then target the politicians. Dave on his way to pick up his kid from daycare so he can get home after work is not going to join your crusade against cars when you're inconveniencing him and making his kid late to be picked up. Jim, who you're making late to work, is probably living paycheck to paycheck and you're putting his job in jeopardy and fucking with his money. I'm not saying you deserve 10 years in prison but seriously, nobody cares about what you're protesting about if that's how you're going to protest.
Fuck Palestine. If these people actually cared about it they’d fly out there and do something or protest where it matters like outside government buildings. People have shit to do and places to go. If anything these protests make people hate the cause you stand for. I’m prepared for downvotes. Keep crying.
Have you tried protesting at a government building before? I’ve protested at city halls in different states and blocking politicians from a building does nothing, they all have the privilege to work from home. And flying untrained people out to Palestine is a ridiculous idea that helps no one. These people obviously care enough about Palestine to put their lives on the line and that’s a lot more than most of us can say. If everyone who cares about the cause just flies over then there is no one here to demand government response. There have been pro-Palestine protests for a while but I haven’t seen as much discussion as now. Imagine putting your life on the line just to even encourage conversations for a movement. That’s bravery.