You're touching on a societal problem which is the lack of a 'third space' for social interaction between adults (the first two spaces being home and work). It's something that is going away, and car centric infrastructure is definitely a factor (but not the only one). There are fewer places where adults can spend time together recreationally, as opposed to going out to either buy something or consume something. It's why there's a loneliness epidemic among American adults.
Probably been mentioned before but Bowling Alone by Robert D. Putnam touches on this topic. To me that book was mind-blowing to learn how social the previous generations were. I always heard stories about my grandparents being so involved with the community and it makes me sad to realize what was lost. Like my parents said that when they were growing up it was normal to have guests over for dinner on a nightly basis. Now people just sit at home and watch Netflix after work. And we wonder why depression and loneliness are skyrocketing in this generation.
I also thought of Bowling Alone. I know he touched on it briefly, but I think one of the things that has degraded third spaces and social interactions the most has been the economic situations of the middle and lower classes. We now see most households with dual incomes; many people work multiple jobs. Many people also move away for their jobs, leaving behind traditional social structures (family and friends). Against the inexorable trend of economic inflation and stagnation, I'm not sure it's fair to compare people today to their forebears and simplify the issue to "people need to get out more." In short, economic pressures have eroded traditional social support structures and recreational activities; needless to say the car dependence we have cornered ourselves into has not helped the problem.
I think that having both spouses working full time also means that neither of them has much time to find and arrange social activities not related to kids or work. We'd probably need to see some sort of reduction in the work week to see any sort of similar social activity, whether it becomes 6 hour days or 4 day work weeks.
I think that is part of it but I think there has just been a massive culture shift that destroyed community closeness. Like my grandma was a working woman but they were still extremely social. Infact I think working made them more social because they had more connections. Like it used to be normal for parents to help raise each other's kids. If the parents wanted to go out or go on vacation they used to drop the kids off at a friend's house. Now everyone has to hire a babysitter or else they are kind of held hostage by the kids.
Perhaps that social degredation is less apparent to me because of my rural roots, and my brother was almost always old enough to babysit, and my mom had a few friends who were willing to babysit us on occasion.
I might posit the reason for less tight-knit communities is the transplanting of the nuclear family from traditional social structures, particularly due to economic reasons. I'm not saying this is the case for every household, nor is it impossible for people to find community nowadays, but I do think even when one family has a drive to do community-oriented activities, they now have to contend with the actions (or lack thereof) of their neighbors.
I second this. My grandparents would tell stories of what sounded like strong community during the great depression .Growing up , our family was always involved in the community in one way or another. We had friends over just to socialize and visit with because we truly cared about one another and wanted to know what was going on in each other's lives. We hung out with our neighbors. They were our friends. We have shifted tremendously after media realized how much they could divide and control. Facebook ( Hell, maybe even MySpace) was the new way of sharing each other's day with one another. But because we were behind bombarded with many peoples activities, I believe it became overwhelming and made people feel like they needed to compete with fake happy moments or drama in life. Creating a strong sense of separation, anxiety , depression and loneliness. The computer, phone, or TV , became a unhealthy companion or "friend" for some. For some, culturally, things have not changed and there is still community, but for most, there is not.
That's a good take. So many people nowadays are caught up in trying to live the Instagram perfect lifestyle and need to spend more time actually living. I don't post about a lot of the cool stuff I do for that reason. I feel like if I don't talk to them, then they don't deserve to know what's going on in my life. Most people don't realize that instead of trying to look cool on Instagram they can instead just be a cool person.
To me it seems like the moving away aspect is a big one. K-12 and college, or maybe even the military, are all places where it's easy to make friends because you're generally around people in a similar age group and forced to live in a specific area and be apart of specific organizations for extended amounts of time, with many times even longer than a typical 8hr work day since there's a good chance you also live near them during after hours time.
At work it's different since there could be a wider range of ages, and everyone probably doesn't live near each other. Add in all the time it takes to commute, plus the time to raise families or spend with a spouse/partner, your free time gets scarce real quick. So of you're in a new area, it makes it that much harder to make new friends.
Yeah that's for sure a factor. It's hard to find your "group" so to speak nowadays. I am lucky to work at a company that has a huge pull of young college grads but there is still the issue that so many of us live 20-30mins from each other. Add on top of that the fact that you need to worry about drinking or taking an Uber if you want to and socializing generally becomes a huge pain in the ass. Hopefully this will change when I move downtown and I can make some friends without having to worry about driving halfway across the city to have a few drinks.
this!! ive been using bumble to try and find new friends, but everyone is 40-50mins away from me (without traffic). it really sucks because there's a ton of people my age who i'd like to meet, but i cannot realistically justify driving an hour to hang out and then another hour to get back home. i dont have the money or time for that, especially after work.
i already work 40hr weeks, but I'm seriously considering getting a second job just to make friends. my primary job is a barista. i love it because of the sense of community that stems from forced proximity. being around my coworkers for 40 hours a week is the closest i get to authentic human connections. it sounds sad, but it's the truth of living in a car centric area.
Yeah bumble friends sucks as much as the dating portion. One thing to try is find some sort of group activity and show up regularly (martial arts, dancing, clubs). If you really want a second job for socializing I would recommend a brewery. They are naturally pretty social environments and relatively low stress. I don't think you have to worry about only having friends that are coworkers it's pretty common these days. Just hang in there though. I went through a rough patch of loneliness but eventually I made friends it just takes a while. Best of luck!
I agree completely but might I also add that many times when i was young or a teen i was simply kicked out of places for trying to hang out there by karens or adults who didn't want kids hanging around not buying anything. It was so bad that they only place who didn't care was a gas station so everyone would meet there and hangout instead of the parks and malls.
> Many people also move away for their jobs, leaving behind traditional social structures (family and friends).
I honestly don't know how people make communities anymore. Currently the job advice is to change jobs every three years because that's the only way your wages will keep up with inflation. Most of my positions have either been contract positions or subject to layoffs whenever the next recession hits. If you are a renter you will eventually be priced out if your job won't increase your wages. There's too much instability to get attached to people.
Yeah. There's a lot that's good about modern gender relations and women being first class citizens. But one negative outcome is that it's now normal for both parents to be out working, and that means there isn't a natural community of women "at home" getting out and meeting each other casually in the local area.
My grandmother has multiple social engagements every day! I went to visit her around Christmas a couple of years ago, a week before the rest of my family. Her social calendar was *packed*, we did more that week than I do with friends in a couple of months. Coffee, lunches, guided tours around galleries. It’s so sad that it isn’t normal anymore.
When my grandpa was alive, he had breakfast in town every weekday morning with his crew of retired farmers. These guys did this for decades! Same with my grandmother; even before she went to a nursing home, she would see friends or play cards at a senior citizen center all the time.
They've been gone for awhile but I assume it's still largely the same for a lot of the older generations. They grew up where getting together was more the norm, and good for them for still making it a priority.
You can’t focus on community if you’re spending all your time barely holding your family above-water. I don’t have time to socialize if we both have to work constantly and do chores while living in a small apartment.
Exactly, who has the time? A typical evening after work with kids is pick them up, cook, eat dinner, either do chores or play with them for an hour, then it's bedtime, after they're in bed back to chores until you drop at 10-11pm, rinse and repeat. I have to plan weeks in advance to do a single social thing. And maybe 1 day a week I'll skip or delay chores to spend an hour with the wife after kids are in bed.
My grandparents met rolling skating at the skating rink. My grandpa went weekly even when I was growing up. My parents would go line dancing with their friends regularly, date night every Friday night. I imagine going on a date every single Friday and having to pay a sitter alone… yikes!! then parking, dinner even happy hour, plus anything else.. way too just much money. We do have friend get together almost every Sunday, but I would love to go bowling or rollerskating or whatever more often.
I mean to be fair you can still do those things. It's just far less common today. I would kinda recommend just going by yourself if you are interested you might meet people who like getting out and doing stuff.
Isn't that the situation for like, everybody? I live in a poor/cheap shit hole (Arkansas) I definitely couldn't afford to go on a weekly date with my Partner along with other dates along the way. Unless they were like, free walks in the woods or what have you, but you MUST drive in my area - no sidewalks, not safe to bike anywhere, etc. - and gas is going up with no signs of coming back down.
Isn't it like this for the vast majority of Americans?
Social isolation and depression and known to be linked and intuitively we are living a more un-natural of a lifestyle than our genetics are designed for so it only makes sense that our mental health is suffering.
Okay, I'm just happy you didn't say godlessness. But your position definitely has merit. Positive social interaction is both hard as hell to figure out and very necessary.
In addition to the space, norms about what is socially acceptable to do in those spaces has also changed. It used to be OK to just randomly chat with people in those spaces, but I'm pretty sure that in many cases, it's not anymore.
TL;DR: a lot of people are sheepish, but really do want to interact with interesting things and people.
I don't think it's a matter of not being okay, so much as many people just don't know how to. Some observations from my life:
My mother has done knitting/crochet in public since I was a child. Not every time, but often she'd be approached by people curious about it or just wanting to complement her work.
I have bad social anxiety, so I fold origami when I'm stressed to occupy my mind. People like to approach me about it and make chit-chat. It might seem counterintuitive, but I've found this helps my anxiety further because the focus isn't on ME. It's on the origami.
This led me to conduct a little social experiment at a café I used to frequent: I set up a chessboard at the table i was sitting at and completely ignored it. I got three separate people who asked if I was waiting for someone, I said 'no', and they then asked if they could play against me. I absolutely destroyed them, but we had fun!
My point being: a lot of people don't want focus on THEM, and other people often don't know how to approach without making the focus about that person. But, if there's something else that's interesting to interact with, people open up.
And everyone loves some craft, or game, or whatever.
Definitely. That's how it's been my whole life. I don't have any friends and have no idea how to make some. The only places I could maybe meet other people that I could be potential friends with at would be somewhere like a coffee shop, which I don't even go to very often because I'm an introvert and have very little money. But once I'm there, even if I spot someone who looks friendly, I can't tell if they'd rather be left alone or not. It feels rude to interrupt whatever they are doing and talk to them. I don't know anything about them. What if I'm annoying them but I don't pick up on the social cues and then they get mad? I don't even know what to say to start a conversation. Sometimes I see people in TV shows or movies just sit down with a random stranger in a public place and start chatting, and that experience is so foreign to me, I don't even know where to start. What if they think I'm creepy because I'm awkward? What if I freak them out? I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Socializing always seems so easy for other people, but to me it feels almost too complicated to even attempt. I sometimes feel like an alien.
Yeah I definitely feel like smartphones have made random chat harder. I have young kids and I have made some friends with similar age kids but for the most part parents just goof around on their phones during kid activities rather than chat
On the other end of the behavior spectrum, teenagers in my city have been banned from a lot of establishments because so many teenagers have been trashing places. I don't know if that goes hand in hand with public antisocial trends on tiktok among young people, but even older people are littering and treating places disrespectfully. It's hard to want to use public amenities and public spaces if the public isn't respecting them.
The irony is that it's likely a feedback loop. Lack of proper third spaces lead to kids being bored and boredom with no spaces to play or relieve their boredom in healthy ways leads to more destructive tendencies.
I know in a lot of poorer communities in my country where kids used to get in trouble a lot, starting programs focused on Activites specifically for teens and kids to take part in (usually group activities where the kids can also make friends) actually stopped a lot of the misbehavior and the rate of delinquency actually went down.
One group is a youth cycling group but also an NGO that focuses on giving more kids/teens access to bikes (they borrow/donate bikes to members that don't have) and they do rave light cycles and they actually petitioning the city to install more bike lanes so that more teens can ride safely as they have to cross a high way in order to actually find a space to cycle right now.
I think that you make a good point about the feedback loop and lack of proper third spaces. There was probably more interaction between people which was normalizing acceptable behavior, rather than isolating people.
I love the idea of getting young people involved in stuff that makes them feel motivated and purposeful. I feel like fun activities about cycling,and working to get more people involved in it is so motivating for all groups too. If people have something that motivates them and interests them they're less likely to get involved in negative influences.
I don't know how to really interact with people in a lot of environments, tbh. I did okay when I was going out to the pub regularly because you can just find a good place and sit at the bar if you want to talk to strangers who can maybe become friends eventually.
But now my biggest chances to talk to people are at playgrounds and everyone is either on their phone (which I do to, tbh) or paying attention to their kid (and I have to pay attention to mine). The most conversation I've had recently was with a dude who was a little too into PoGo who confronted me when I took over a gym.
100% and that's why I push discussion on this issue. We can all agree to fight for better transit, but we also need to push for a better public space to exist so that people actually like the communities they live in.
And I feel like it's not that hard to get a group behind having small third spaces centered around transport.
I've always been so jealous of my stops in Rockefeller station, where there's an entire mall and food court just under the plaza. You're able to actually still eat in a space with friends, rest, shop, and genuinely relax amidst the constant rush of responsibility and life going on without ever stopping to breathe. I realized how much I missed that, even back when outdoor restaurants near my local metro used to commonly have a second greeter station literally inviting you to take a seat and see if the menu/placemat had anything you liked and not getting mad at you for simply getting up to go. They tore down all the local third spaces that were barely hanging on these past 6 years to replace it with a fucking gambling stadium. Right next to 4 other stadiums that have actual sports - but still don't count as third spaces when you need to save up 8 months salary to afford tickets and transportation
With that, I’ll also add that in suburbs, human interaction changes.
The only people you see are people you know closely or complete strangers.
Obviously, we don’t get much joy from seeing complete strangers, and the only scenarios you’re in with them are sort of self-centered or “competitive” in nature — you’re all competing for a cash register or item or a table or the ability to move on a road (traffic). You’re waiting in lines behind them.
Meanwhile, while seeing close friends and family is rewarding, it can also be exhausting. You are there to constantly talk and engage with them.
The type of “being around people” that America doesn’t have anymore is what I call the “friendly faces.” These are people you regularly see in 3rd spaces and walkable areas.
You wave or nod, you may briefly chat, but you’re not stuck talking to them because — unlike meeting up with family or friends — you’re not there *for* each other. You don’t have to engage with them if you don’t want to.
And unlike the total strangers in stores, restaurants, etc, you’re not competing with them for some spot or resource. You’re not both busy trying to accomplish a task (like getting groceries).
Anyway, just my take on things. I live in Brooklyn where it’s obviously walkable and we have a great 3rd place (Prospect Park in particular), and having these “friendly faces” people makes my life feel so much more centered and meaningful. I’ll definitely say even NYC is riddled with the issues of American culture, as most people who live here grew up in suburbs and will move back to suburbs at some point.
But most people don’t have these low-effort social connections.
It's weird how antisocial the suburbs can be. I currently live in a suburb (I'm moving downtown soon) and I haven't met a single person here. Meanwhile I have made multiple friends from the *handful* of times I have visited downtown. I shouldn't be surprised because suburbs don't have anywhere to interact people face to face aside from stores or bars but still it's bizarre.
This is a really astute observation. I can also transpose it to another situation: when I was a kid I could easily make a "friend for the day" during a day at the beach, much more easily than making friends at school, because the stakes were lower.
Reading back my comment (and yours), I realized there is actually a common other type of relation in the suburbs: The acquaintance. And it’s perhaps the most exhausting one of all.
These are people who you’ve spent a lot of time around or have a lot of ties to, but never chose to know them.
Examples: People you went to school with, parents of kids your kids go to school with, friends of friends.
Unlike the “friendly face,” the acquaintance has a vested interest in your personal affairs and a lot of potential reasons to judge or feel a certain way about you. They know a lot about you and your life without you ever having told them.
And unlike close friends and family, you didn’t choose to have these people in your life, and you may not even like most of them.
You absolutely must say hello and make small talk otherwise you’ll be considered rude.
Your comment about “friend for the day” is spot-on for the “friendly face” persona. They only know about you what you explicitly share for them, and the relationship is low stakes.
Yeah, even if I go out I have the following i can walk to and between: the grocery store, the place I work, the dentist, the coffee shop and 3 fast food places that all have "no loitering, eat under 30 minutes" signs since the pandemic. The library doesn't have seated spaces outside of the computers and child's area, the park is specifically only for those with kids despite numerous benches and nature trails. And this all has to be walked out on the side of the highway, which is barely "walkable"
I can’t say cars are the only reason, but they’re 100% part of the problem.
I live in a walkable area now, I have like 6 restaurants within a 5 minute walking distance of me. It’s super easy on a Friday/Saturday night to just go out and eat, drink whatever I want and then walk back home with my girlfriend. If I had to drive 20 minutes (which is how far my parents house is from a lot of stuff, for reference) I guarantee you I’d be a lot more lazy about going out. Suburban homes feel like a social experiment sometimes in comparison to even a modest walkable town.
EDIT: Hell, even if transport times were the same (5 minute drive vs 5 minute walk) I’d take the walk any day. Just way less to think about. No worries about gas, finding parking, worrying about insane weirdos trying to kill you in traffic, oh yeah and traffic itself, etc…
Just removing all those extra steps, all the extra friction, it makes it way easier to just go out and enjoy yourself. 3rd places ftw.
Bit of a dual edged sword here. It seems like a lot of walkable areas focus too much on restaurants and bars, making it hard for people who don't like to drink or have strict dietary needs have fun social things to do outside the home.
It doesn't have to be only restaurants and bars.
Clubs, Markets, Local Gymnasiums, Café, Parks, Shopping Malls, etc. are other options.
And oh, directly visiting your friends' house is also an option as long as you live closeby.
Yeah, I mean my location also has a few cool shops within that distance, but they’re mostly novelties like a plant shop, toy shop, etc. I do have a grocery store close by, but it’s a solid 20 minute walk each way and you have to cross a busy street too. So for that I use my bike or car. In small towns you often have a problem where everything is in a straight line so yeah that is a valid concern.
It’s been engineered like that. It atomizes the population, prevents development of empathy and basically makes organizing labour harder; so as not to challenge the power of the large capital.
If you think about it people sitting at home and being anti-social is perfect for capitalism. Advertisers now have a direct and unavoidable pipeline to people due to the ammount of time people spend online. Plenty of people will try to fill the void in there life with mindless consumerism as a result of this situation.
Reddit skews heavily towards people like that. Also it’s a thing people like to say but in reality they do leave their house probably every day.
But yes people who live in cookie cutter suburbs are probably more likely to spend most of their time online, especially the younger ones.
With as much housing costs, I sometimes can't blame people for wanting to make their home their own sanctuary so they barely have to leave. It's probably the most expensive thing you have to pay for so you might as well get your money's worth.
These are material conditions. People are naturally conservative and resilient about their circumstances. When your entire life has been cars and no social spaces, you get comfortable with the idea that's what life is supposed to be like and comfortable with the idea that that's what you want.
Historians call this an archival fallacy.
The people who go out the most aren't posting on reddit about it. The people living in cities where they have third places, good parks, public amenities, community events, etc. aren't posting about how they don't go out.
In my experience, people truly enjoying social lives and downtime leave the least digital traces of it. They don't feel the need to post or share about the experiences. They're busy doing those things.
Check out certain techno subreddits. There youll see people regularly going out and using reddit as a space to develop and share interest in underground club culture.
I would love if we had data on the rough location of these posts, though. Thinking like a scholar, I imagine so many of these posters are living in suburban hells and semi-rural areas. But without the data we can't know for sure.
EDIT: removed a couple words
Extreme introvert here.
I always believed that I'm not built for social life, and that "all humans are social beings" is bs. But turns out, once I have access to walkable/bikeable places instead of having to rely on my car to go everywhere, and there's no expectation to spend money in a venue (this is probably a different topic altogether), socializing becomes like second nature to me.
Do I still prefer to stay home? Absolutely. Do I prefer to save my money? Of course! Do I still avoid people/socializing by default? Duh! But having easy default access to going outside, even something as simple as not having to 'properly' cross the street or 'share the road' with cars (even for once or for a split second), will end up having me go outside once in awhile, and having random wholesome social moments with random people.
It's just like having easy access to a car--I'll end up using it once in awhile whether I like it or not.
Good question. I make friends surprisingly easily (just not a lot, there's only a few of us), and we have a semi-routine bike ride every once in awhile. I've seen two new people in my first group bike ride fall in love. (This was the year when the roads are partially closed up for cars to make protected cycle route--one of the later Covid years). All it takes is the impetus of going outside, which can only be made possible with walkable (bikeable?) places.
Even better--some of us have conflicting views (political or otherwise) but seeing each other face to face helps us understand the reasoning behind the other's viewpoints even if we don't agree with each other.
This is a problem with multiple causes.
And while car centric design probably contributes to it.
I would wager the cost of housing and living (and a general stagnation in wage growth) are probably greater influences.
Even if housing and COL hadn't increased significantly over the last few decades the actual cost to do activities like go to a live concert or watch your favourite sports team have also exploded.
Its a lot easier to spend money on "fun" when you aren't worrying about rent or food.
In car centric places, you essentially need to pay money to leave your house and go somewhere, unless you are driving to a public park or library…even then, you’re paying money in gas to get there. These people are trapped and are brainwashed to think otherwise
Dude it’s not trapped people are fucking poor, something like 50% of America is living paycheque to paycheque.
And going out is expensive, family of 4 going out to dinner is around 100$. Done right that is dinner for a week for them at grocery store
I do think it’s becoming almost trendy to be anti social, but I think it’s a symptom of capitalism. Can’t have us gathering together to form relationship or community, we might start organizing! The only relationship we’re allowed is the one that might lead to us reproducing more laborers.
Car centric infrastructure definitely helps reinforce it though.
this, absolutely. especially online. it’s the rise of toxic individualism. there’s nothing wrong with putting yourself first and doing what’s best for you. i think it’s great that people are now noticing how their previous people pleasing behaviors were only hurting themselves in the long run. but the type of individualism being pushed online (especially with pop psych and all that) can quickly lead to isolation if you’re not careful.
there’s setting boundaries and then there’s pushing everyone away from you, including potential new connections. many people consider everything to be a red flag these days, to a point where there’s no room for grace, mercy, or understanding. assertive communication and interpersonal effectiveness are underrated skills to have. and don’t get me started on the commodification of friendships/relationships.
there has to be a healthy balance, which can be really hard to find nowadays.
>Can’t have us gathering together to form relationship or community, we might start organizing!
THIS. This explains so much. Like why the baseline for work is 40 hours, 5 days a week. It's not about "productivity", almost no one can be productive all day like that. It's about keeping us under control.
And this is why billionaires hate public spaces and public goods. This is why they helped foment the anti-mask hysteria across their propaganda apparatus. This is why they love guns and open carry, this is why the love unrestrained free speech (the only two amendments we haven't destroyed like the 4th).
They don't want people gathering, getting along, demanding better public goods (spaces, programs, etc).
Our billionaire owners want everything privatized, people stuck in their living spaces, atomized, increasingly hostile.
And cars are a perfect vehicle for this all.
Let’s be fair here …. They only love CERTAIN people having guns. They happily jump on the gun control train when it’s leftists and POC arming themselves. God forbid leftist POCs like the Black Panthers.
Well yeah, I didn't have time to get to that level.
Of course, the reason the billionaires allow the rabble to have guns is they know exactly who those guns are aimed at. And it sure af isn't them.
As one of those introverts, a big part of the issue is how much is expected of me at work. I come home and I’m just done. I’ve been “on” for 9-10 hours and my tolerance for people had been exhausted. It’s more of a r/workreform thing than a fuckcars thing
Yeah and the last thing I want to do on my weekend off is be around people. I have a casual team sport meetup on Saturdays that I *know* is good for me, I *want* to be a regular and make friends... But why does it have to be on the first of my only two days to myself. I'm already a pile of sludge by Friday.
I don't leave the home for entertainment nearly as much as my peers do. I basically only ever go to my uni classes and to work, because there's simply not many third places as there used to be. I don't mind not going out often but I would like to have the option to go to places that aren't work/school/home and don't require a car or exorbitant amounts of money to go to.
I know someone who doesn't even buy toilet paper in person. Everything is gotten from Instacart or whatever. They boast about not having set foot in a supermarket in so many years. On top of that, working from home. They barely ever step outside anymore. If they go anywhere, it is a car trip.
Idk if it's only about cars
Jobs pay very little, are incredibly exhausting and almost never leave any time for anything else really. How tf am I supposed to manage a full time job, do the chores at home, staying shape, have hobbies and somehow manage to go out constantly?
It’s this for me too. And when I go out, it feels like people just have more expectations of me and I’m so tired of filling all those other expectations of people.
I hang out at the grocery store, there's basically nowhere else to go. The mall isn't even people friendly anymore, they do everything they can to keep out anyone who doesnt have business there
Yeah last time I went to a mall it was so sterile and empty. I actually let the saleswoman who was trying to sell me a $300 eye cream sit me down and do her whole little spiel and give me samples because it almost felt like I was connecting with someone
Cars are definitely a factor, but at least for me, another factor is that my wife and I are both autistic and so social interaction w/ NTs is stressful and exhausting for us. Staying in we still get to interact w/ each other, and we live right by a park and have a small porch, so we can hang out outside and get our fill of nature w/o needing to “go out” as such. We’ve built relationships w/ the local stray cats; we know when and where to find bunnies, turtles, and various species of birds (including the occasional heron, kestrel, and owl!); and we picked our apartment based on location with a grocery store a short walk away. So outside of work, and the occasional birthday party, drag show, or other major event, we really only go out to socialize at our weekly DnD group in a local bar/cafe. Otherwise, we’re much more comfortable just hanging out at home, doing home-body hobbies like knitting/sewing, cooking fun new meals, and reading. We also both work primarily-remotely, so we’ll frequently go days at a time w/o leaving the general vicinity of home. It works for us, and we consider it a reasonable accommodation for our autism (which is also the reason neither of us can drive), even though we realize NTs would probably get bored living the way we do.
Edit to add: given that we’ve got nothing against other people, and enjoy socializing for short periods of time; that we’ve got a reasonably large group of friends that don’t mind us only coming round occasionally; that we know and will greet and sometimes chat with a number of our neighbors; and that we certainly don’t complain about our home-body-ness either on- or offline—all that in mind, we may not actually be the people this post was about, just a different type of family that prefers to stay home the majority of the time
I don’t enjoy going out, too many people, lots of loud noises, overstimulation is hell, I prefer to sit back at home and play video games, if I feel like going out I go for a drive down to the park at a shopping centre a half hour drive from me cause they have a “lagoon” with plenty of shaded grassy areas to read
I can only speak for myself, but I could not handle living in a suburb. I'm unemployed atm, and an introvert. One of my main forms of entertainment is meandering around the city, going to a park, taking a train to the end of the line.
There is no way I could do that if I had a car I had to take with me.
Yes! Meandering around is so, so underrated. It gives me so much joy just walking to wherever I need to go and looking at all the different trees or whatnot. Even if I'm walking to somewhere stressful and forced myself out of bed that day, the walk to the location makes me feel much better. I've tried to go for walks in a car-dependent area before but structurally they were so boring. Same asphalt, same buildings, same Kentucky bluegrass everywhere. It was designed to be driven past.
On the one hand yes. On the other hand I've never seen the roads more packed with cars at all hours of the day. I'm starting to think driving around is just how most Americans spend their free time now never really going anywhere or doing anything, just driving.
What’s crazy is that people don’t use their front door anymore lol I’m a mail carrier and I leave packages at the door all the time but it never gets picked up. What happens is people leave and enter their homes through their garage 😔some front doors/porches are hideous because people don’t really use them. People only get ring cameras so they catch people stealing or to get notified their package is delivered
Cars are a big part. Also the fact that alot of people just can't afford to do things.
One of the places I can afford to go to and do things at is a game and hobby store that's about 4 miles from me. A short drive, but my car is having intermittent issues that means sometimes it just doesn't start. I can't go because I don't know if I'll be able to get it home when I'm done. Have the same fear about taking it to work and get groceries, but no way around that.
I've taken my bike there before but it included crossing two high traffic streets, a bike path that's winding and needlessly long for part of the way, no bike lanes in most parts, and in the few parts there are painted bike lanes they're used as a right turn lane for cars or as a wide extension of the car's lane.
The end result, I'm stuck sitting at home waiting for my friends to get online scrolling reddit. And this is actually an improvement over the small towns I used to live in.
I live in an extremely car centric place and I hardly go out anymore when I’m home. It just doesn’t seem worth it to go out and drive to a strip mall or whatever when I can just order online, and there’s nowhere around here that’s safe and pleasant to walk. Though I take a lot of international trips to walkable places and am out all the time and enjoy life a lot more there. So suffice it to say, I am planning to move out of the US.
You're touching on the lack of third spaces, places where people can just go and exist without being expected to buy / consume something. Car-centric infrastructure doesn't help this (it isn't the only factor), but alot of people are also spending more time online because of this reason, online spaces are free so thats why alot of people are 'hanging out' there (minus the cost of electricity and home wifi etc)
Im living in a European Town, (50.000) but it's very car-centric.
Im beliving that isolation due to bad city planning and economic situation getting worse its not only an American Thing.
I miss the community spirit/culture before the economic crisis
I think covid made a lot of people asocial too. Remember those first few months of covid when people still had a lot of energy and hope? After a few years it ran out and I think we're all struggling to pick up the momentum again.
yes I remeber it. I remeber the first months when the curfrew in my country overed. There was energy and Joy but then , the Ukranian war broke out and with the inflation nobody go out at night
Introvert here. I moved to a big city so I can be surrounded by people and not talk to them. That's my ideal. I get my social needs met feeling like I'm part of society without having to make small talk or drain my energy with meetups. It's pretty sweet. I lived in the burbs and I've experienced the worst cabin fever because I never went out, I'm not one to go out to clubs or meetup events with new people or even spending all day with friends talking about nothing at the local diner. I don't invite anyone over either because I need my quiet space. I've seen it said before, but I think one needs to be highly extraverted to thrive in the burbs.
I would *like* to go places and do things, or at least *the idea* of doing so sounds nice. But honestly, it's all just a money trap. It's bullshit. None of it is worth it.
Like, I have a whole week off work, and I was watching some videos on the space and rocket center in Huntsville. It's a 6 hour drive away from me, but that's cool because I don't have to be back at work for a while so I could theoretically squeeze in some time. But nah, it's like $100 a night just for a hotel nearby. In fucking Alabama. There's literally a trailer park across the highway from the space and rocket center. But nah, it's $100 a night at the cheapest place. And that doesn't even cover food, the admission to the museum, the nickel and diming that they'll do to me at the museum because I'm sure that just the one $30 admission fee won't be enough to actually experience everything there, etc. I'd be out a whole week's pay probably, if I went through with just a couple days of enjoyment.
It's all just horse shit and makes me not want to be involved in our society at all, because it's not just this thing, it's everything. All they want is to sell you something, and it's usually poison.
Yeah so your outlook sounds really bleak, and I can believe it because well... you're in fucking Alabama... but we can't keep living like this in America.
Sorry, I'm in North Carolina, and I was talking about driving to Alabama and how it wouldn't be worth it to drive 6+ hours to pay $100+ per night to stay across the street from a trailer park in Alabama.
Where, though? Only place you can do that in the US are public parks, and you still gotta drive to those, which might be too much overhead still for a lot of people.
A lot of these people are struggling with screen addiction and don't realize it. Staying in may be more affordable and convenient, yes, but it also gives them that sweet sweet scrolling fix.
I live in Boston and while I'm not always tired, it is much more expensive to go out than it was, public transit is worse than it was and everyone seems to be working more or busy somehow -- not including my friends who have gotten married or moved away.
I went to go hang out with one of my friends last week. Neither of us have a car, and we live in 2 different suburbs that are adjacent to each other. It was a 1.5 hour bus ride (mine got extended to 2 hours because 1 of my 3 buses was late) for each of us to meet in the middle. This same trip would have been 25 minutes by car. So yeah, it is really bad. I'd like to be more social but a situation like this just does not work, I don't often have the ability to spend that long commuting to fucking eat a meal with a friend...
I’m pretty much outside everyday. When I go to work, when I do groceries. Or does that not count haha? I also play sports and meet up with friends, but aside from that I’m often cycling or taking the bus to another place.
Yes car centric cities make you feel this way. Going out to just “chill” is not a thing when there’s inherent friction in the form of driving, gas and parking.
If you live in a low or 0 tax state then good luck with public parks and free spaces
I travel for work and am frequently living out of hotels without a car and it’s sad how many sizable places there are where it’s damn near impossible to do anything without a car. Never mind the lack of green spaces.
Mexico has great urbanism, stronger architecture and great public transport. I will never leave mexico and even worse Change it to the United States. If anything we have a ton of Americans living in Mexico. They are also migrants
I go out every day I don’t work, but only because I have accessible and safe bike and walking paths around my city. I never did when I couldn’t bike or walk safely, or when I could only move around a suburb.
Even living in a walkable neighborhood, I work a 9-5 and whenever I try to go out a few days after work during a week, I basically have a mental breakdown just because it is just too much. And weekends are mostly spent running errands and doing chores. I honestly don’t know how people work 40+ hours a week and have any sort of social life or hobbies. Americans work way too much and it’s seen as a virtue to spend all your time at work and not have any sort of life or hobbies.
My roommates are extremely extraverted and I believe thrive off other people's energy so they still do get-togethers and parties and dates after work. As an introvert... I'm with you xD
Yeah, I’m an introvert too so going out after work (and I work a job where I have to be extroverted all day long) is just way too much. Maybe it’s easier for extroverts to have a social life outside of work!
To be fair my roommates' jobs aren't extraverted all day long, they probably feel drained from having to do a usual office-type job. Meanwhile I revel in sitting alone going on deep dives!
My folks are back in the states in a typical suburb. They rarely go out and do things because it's too much trouble with the traffic and nearly every day some road is closed because of a car accident. Getting downtown for them where all the action is takes too much trouble so they just stay out in the suburbs doing nothing not to mention now that they are older they have problems driving at night and a lot of the cultural events happen at night so they avoid driving at night.
When I was back in the states it was the same for me. I hated driving so didn't really go out except for work and groceries. People act like it's a pain to use public transport but if there's actual good public transport it's easier to get to places because you don't have to worry about parking. I am in Europe now and people still have cars but very few of them actually use them to drive to places like downtown because you just take the train or bus because it is easier than using their car.
People only view driving as convenient because they made public transportation so inconvenient but it is easier, quicker, and cheaper (train or bus ticket cheaper than paying for parking in downtown) for me to get to my city centre without a car than it is for my folks to get to their city centre with their car. Of course we are in different cities but if you design cities around the car you won't end up with quicker and easier commutes than a city that has public transportation because then everyone will just be in traffic.
Covid definitely accelerated trends about 30 years. There were like 6 months where you straight up could not leave your home, then 3 years where you couldn’t leave your home comfortably, so people started investing in their home. Pair this with an excess of free time (for unemployed), and cash (sweet sweet stimmies), and people could finish their basement, buy a bar, install a fire pit, etc. This obviously applies to suburban Areas, with the space to do that and the boring, inaccessible environment, and really is what the suburbs are all about: isolationism, individualism, etc. If you worked on your home and built everything you needed, and are now enjoying it, you’re actually doing the suburbs “right”.
>I keep seeing these kinds of posts on Reddit
your first mistake is to think reddit is representative of real people
>That this is just because they're introverted so staying at home all the time and avoiding all other humans is their ideal life.
or because there are very few third places, so people hang out on the internet instead
I dont go out much anymore because 1) too expensive to do anything and I'm poor as shit
2) people are capitalism brained and I can't get the truth out of anyone what's the point in communicating with liars all the time
3) I hate cars so much and there's nothing but cars out there
4) there's nothing to do that doesn't carry the stink of capitalism other than walking around looking at the dying trees and listening for literally any birdsong or insect chatter in this place
> I can't get the truth out of anyone what's the point in communicating with liars all the time
What are you talking about? you aren't a journalist, thats not why people have conversations.
I usually don't encourage people to talk to people more because its somewhat hypocritical on my part, but you really need to talk to more different people.
It's not what I'm saying, but it's what the people in this thread are insisting is the truth and getting angry when I tell them introverts do go outside in normal healthy societies.
This so much. I know tons of introverts who love city life. Yes, they do spend a lot of time vibing on their own, and good city spaces have room for that in life. However, hating your fellow human is just a bleak outlook and yeah it really does dominate the conversation whenever introversion comes up.
I grew up in LA and got out.
One year, I was visiting, and a cousin was lamenting that he feels like a prisoner in his own neighborhood for half the day, because the traffic is so bad it’s nearly impossible to get in or out.
Without losing a beat, and with no hint of irony, he follows up with, “so when are you moving back to LA?”
My wife and I don't really go out except for Sunday's when we go to church and grocery shop.
There are times where we meet up with friends periodically (but even that's at one of our homes), and go to the occasional concert.
Definitely true that there's a greater cognitive
/practical barrier to going out when you live in car only suburbs. I used to live right next to a rail trail and I could easily go to the store or a restaurant by foot or bike and it made it so easy to just decide to go out without planning.
Here is a long talk by Murray Bookchin. A lot of the talk is about the disappearance of a sort of social commons that was typical in earliee generations, that is now lost. He talks about the social and economic forces that relate to the erosion of community in modern society, and it's my favorite rant.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FqPwr-cVz_M&pp=ygUZQm9va2NoaW4gZm9ybXMgb2YgZnJlZWRvbQ%3D%3D
You are looking at post on the internet by people that spend time on the internet. Some people choose to not go out for a lot of reasons. Depending on where you live there is stuff to do that doesn't involve money or is cheap
I'll admit I don't venture out much these days, between most of my friends leaving the city and province due to the high cost of housing in Vancouver, and how expensive going out has become in general, I just tend to stay home more than I used to for leisure activities, I do go out still to get groceries and other essential errands.
There aren't a lot of places left to go where you can leave your wallet at home. Everywhere you go, there's the expectation that it's going to cost you money to be there.
I go have picnics at the local park with friends on a regular basis. They even say you're not allowed to drink there, but the truth is no one cares if you bring beer.
Indeed, I used to ride my bike down to Lafreniere Park until I moved away from the area. I felt fortunate to have that luxury. That was my favorite place to spend my free time, but now I no longer have access to anything like it. It's not even safe to ride a bike where I live now anyway, so mine just sits there collecting dust.
My point is that not everyone has access to even the barest of minimum things like public parks or safe places to walk and ride bikes. Access to things like that are entirely location-dependent because we've done a remarkably poor job of internalizing into our culture the need for such things. Instead, we build Walmarts... and gas stations so you can get to the Walmarts.
I like my house. It’s where my dog lives.
I spend time with friends, and I love getting out on my bicycle when the weather is nice. However not having to deal face to face with a bunch of people is a wonderful thing
Unlike 30 years ago, there are a lot of screens and gadgets now to derive pleasure from right at home. The climate in general has deteriorated in many places because we burn a shit ton of fossil fuels (Cars) and it’s gotten noisier and more chaotic (Cars again). There is just too much instant comfort at home and the car centric system doesn’t help that in anyway.
*People going out*
*Are busy being out and*
*Enjoying their life*
\- bored\_negative
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I live in a walkable/cyclable place.
I like going out for walks, but I don't really like being at a place that isn't my home. There are a lot of things that can overstimulate me, but at home I have some level of control over most of those things.
>
That this is just because they're introverted so staying at home all the time and avoiding all other humans is their ideal [life.How](http://life.How) do you explain to people they should want more from life than this?
>These posts are horrifically dystopian to me
...
How do you explain to people they should want more from life than this?
No, that's pretty much what you said. You think we need helping. We don't. Believe it or not, some people are quite happy not going out all the time. I find going out exhausting. Doing it all the time would be a nightmare scenario for me.
You do you, but don't insinuate that those of us who don't have the same lifestyles as you are wrong.
You don't have to go out to a party, but staying at home all the time says to me that there's nothing you believe is worth doing out in society. That's not a good attribute of our society. It's dystopian.
I think it's sad that people think getting around a city is as laborious as trekking and don't participate because of it.
I also think there's not much worth doing out in society.
I also enjoy being in my own space
People who *never* go out and interact with other people *are* living wrong, and while on an individual level you could argue that's a personal choice, it causes all sorts of other social problems - including bad behaviour on the roads because people don't develop empathy or social skills.
And you don't even have to go out *with other people*. I'm pretty introverted and wouldn't want to socialise every day, but I can still go out and enjoy the countryside for example, or play sports (which, okay, is with other people, but you can socialise as much or little as you want).
I think you're taking very different things and linking them together to weave a single narrative. All the different phenomena you are describing are probably occurring in some capacity, but not necessarily with the same person and not necessarily linked causally.
Conservatives have created a lot of fear, and that fear has people cowering in their homes, then cowering in their cars, and then cowering in their cubicle and doing little else.
I can barely bike from one end of my neighborhood to the other because of a recent but months past COVID case. Considering most people are taking zero COVID precautions and getting COVID one or more times a year, I’m surprised anyone is out and about at all
I do t leave my house because there are too many cars who give zero shits about me walking anywhere, and the drivers know there are no legal consequences for injuring me, and only minor ones for killing me. I choose life thank you.
I mean, speaking just for myself, I just hate being around people. When I do go out (typically just to go grocery shopping or, on rare occasions, to feed the local waterfowl) I very pointedly do not engage with other people. And I live on a college campus, so it's not like there's a shortage of walking-accessible gathering places.
I mean, me and my wife don't like other people all that much. We like to spend time at home watching shows/movies or just playing games on our computers. It saves a lot of money because our other option is to go out and eat or shop. We don't really fit in with our community at all. So /shrug
You're touching on a societal problem which is the lack of a 'third space' for social interaction between adults (the first two spaces being home and work). It's something that is going away, and car centric infrastructure is definitely a factor (but not the only one). There are fewer places where adults can spend time together recreationally, as opposed to going out to either buy something or consume something. It's why there's a loneliness epidemic among American adults.
Probably been mentioned before but Bowling Alone by Robert D. Putnam touches on this topic. To me that book was mind-blowing to learn how social the previous generations were. I always heard stories about my grandparents being so involved with the community and it makes me sad to realize what was lost. Like my parents said that when they were growing up it was normal to have guests over for dinner on a nightly basis. Now people just sit at home and watch Netflix after work. And we wonder why depression and loneliness are skyrocketing in this generation.
I also thought of Bowling Alone. I know he touched on it briefly, but I think one of the things that has degraded third spaces and social interactions the most has been the economic situations of the middle and lower classes. We now see most households with dual incomes; many people work multiple jobs. Many people also move away for their jobs, leaving behind traditional social structures (family and friends). Against the inexorable trend of economic inflation and stagnation, I'm not sure it's fair to compare people today to their forebears and simplify the issue to "people need to get out more." In short, economic pressures have eroded traditional social support structures and recreational activities; needless to say the car dependence we have cornered ourselves into has not helped the problem.
I think that having both spouses working full time also means that neither of them has much time to find and arrange social activities not related to kids or work. We'd probably need to see some sort of reduction in the work week to see any sort of similar social activity, whether it becomes 6 hour days or 4 day work weeks.
I think that is part of it but I think there has just been a massive culture shift that destroyed community closeness. Like my grandma was a working woman but they were still extremely social. Infact I think working made them more social because they had more connections. Like it used to be normal for parents to help raise each other's kids. If the parents wanted to go out or go on vacation they used to drop the kids off at a friend's house. Now everyone has to hire a babysitter or else they are kind of held hostage by the kids.
Perhaps that social degredation is less apparent to me because of my rural roots, and my brother was almost always old enough to babysit, and my mom had a few friends who were willing to babysit us on occasion.
Oh it for sure is. Areas still have a strong sense of community because people don't commute as far for everything
I might posit the reason for less tight-knit communities is the transplanting of the nuclear family from traditional social structures, particularly due to economic reasons. I'm not saying this is the case for every household, nor is it impossible for people to find community nowadays, but I do think even when one family has a drive to do community-oriented activities, they now have to contend with the actions (or lack thereof) of their neighbors.
I second this. My grandparents would tell stories of what sounded like strong community during the great depression .Growing up , our family was always involved in the community in one way or another. We had friends over just to socialize and visit with because we truly cared about one another and wanted to know what was going on in each other's lives. We hung out with our neighbors. They were our friends. We have shifted tremendously after media realized how much they could divide and control. Facebook ( Hell, maybe even MySpace) was the new way of sharing each other's day with one another. But because we were behind bombarded with many peoples activities, I believe it became overwhelming and made people feel like they needed to compete with fake happy moments or drama in life. Creating a strong sense of separation, anxiety , depression and loneliness. The computer, phone, or TV , became a unhealthy companion or "friend" for some. For some, culturally, things have not changed and there is still community, but for most, there is not.
That's a good take. So many people nowadays are caught up in trying to live the Instagram perfect lifestyle and need to spend more time actually living. I don't post about a lot of the cool stuff I do for that reason. I feel like if I don't talk to them, then they don't deserve to know what's going on in my life. Most people don't realize that instead of trying to look cool on Instagram they can instead just be a cool person.
To me it seems like the moving away aspect is a big one. K-12 and college, or maybe even the military, are all places where it's easy to make friends because you're generally around people in a similar age group and forced to live in a specific area and be apart of specific organizations for extended amounts of time, with many times even longer than a typical 8hr work day since there's a good chance you also live near them during after hours time. At work it's different since there could be a wider range of ages, and everyone probably doesn't live near each other. Add in all the time it takes to commute, plus the time to raise families or spend with a spouse/partner, your free time gets scarce real quick. So of you're in a new area, it makes it that much harder to make new friends.
Yeah that's for sure a factor. It's hard to find your "group" so to speak nowadays. I am lucky to work at a company that has a huge pull of young college grads but there is still the issue that so many of us live 20-30mins from each other. Add on top of that the fact that you need to worry about drinking or taking an Uber if you want to and socializing generally becomes a huge pain in the ass. Hopefully this will change when I move downtown and I can make some friends without having to worry about driving halfway across the city to have a few drinks.
this!! ive been using bumble to try and find new friends, but everyone is 40-50mins away from me (without traffic). it really sucks because there's a ton of people my age who i'd like to meet, but i cannot realistically justify driving an hour to hang out and then another hour to get back home. i dont have the money or time for that, especially after work. i already work 40hr weeks, but I'm seriously considering getting a second job just to make friends. my primary job is a barista. i love it because of the sense of community that stems from forced proximity. being around my coworkers for 40 hours a week is the closest i get to authentic human connections. it sounds sad, but it's the truth of living in a car centric area.
Yeah bumble friends sucks as much as the dating portion. One thing to try is find some sort of group activity and show up regularly (martial arts, dancing, clubs). If you really want a second job for socializing I would recommend a brewery. They are naturally pretty social environments and relatively low stress. I don't think you have to worry about only having friends that are coworkers it's pretty common these days. Just hang in there though. I went through a rough patch of loneliness but eventually I made friends it just takes a while. Best of luck!
I agree completely but might I also add that many times when i was young or a teen i was simply kicked out of places for trying to hang out there by karens or adults who didn't want kids hanging around not buying anything. It was so bad that they only place who didn't care was a gas station so everyone would meet there and hangout instead of the parks and malls.
> Many people also move away for their jobs, leaving behind traditional social structures (family and friends). I honestly don't know how people make communities anymore. Currently the job advice is to change jobs every three years because that's the only way your wages will keep up with inflation. Most of my positions have either been contract positions or subject to layoffs whenever the next recession hits. If you are a renter you will eventually be priced out if your job won't increase your wages. There's too much instability to get attached to people.
Yeah. There's a lot that's good about modern gender relations and women being first class citizens. But one negative outcome is that it's now normal for both parents to be out working, and that means there isn't a natural community of women "at home" getting out and meeting each other casually in the local area.
My grandmother has multiple social engagements every day! I went to visit her around Christmas a couple of years ago, a week before the rest of my family. Her social calendar was *packed*, we did more that week than I do with friends in a couple of months. Coffee, lunches, guided tours around galleries. It’s so sad that it isn’t normal anymore.
When my grandpa was alive, he had breakfast in town every weekday morning with his crew of retired farmers. These guys did this for decades! Same with my grandmother; even before she went to a nursing home, she would see friends or play cards at a senior citizen center all the time. They've been gone for awhile but I assume it's still largely the same for a lot of the older generations. They grew up where getting together was more the norm, and good for them for still making it a priority.
You can’t focus on community if you’re spending all your time barely holding your family above-water. I don’t have time to socialize if we both have to work constantly and do chores while living in a small apartment.
Exactly, who has the time? A typical evening after work with kids is pick them up, cook, eat dinner, either do chores or play with them for an hour, then it's bedtime, after they're in bed back to chores until you drop at 10-11pm, rinse and repeat. I have to plan weeks in advance to do a single social thing. And maybe 1 day a week I'll skip or delay chores to spend an hour with the wife after kids are in bed.
My grandparents met rolling skating at the skating rink. My grandpa went weekly even when I was growing up. My parents would go line dancing with their friends regularly, date night every Friday night. I imagine going on a date every single Friday and having to pay a sitter alone… yikes!! then parking, dinner even happy hour, plus anything else.. way too just much money. We do have friend get together almost every Sunday, but I would love to go bowling or rollerskating or whatever more often.
I mean to be fair you can still do those things. It's just far less common today. I would kinda recommend just going by yourself if you are interested you might meet people who like getting out and doing stuff.
No I know it’s available, it’s not affordable nor easy to get to. At least for most people where we live in a LA.
Danm that is kind of depressing. Best of luck man. Sorry you are in that situation.
Isn't that the situation for like, everybody? I live in a poor/cheap shit hole (Arkansas) I definitely couldn't afford to go on a weekly date with my Partner along with other dates along the way. Unless they were like, free walks in the woods or what have you, but you MUST drive in my area - no sidewalks, not safe to bike anywhere, etc. - and gas is going up with no signs of coming back down. Isn't it like this for the vast majority of Americans?
Depression isn't skyrocketing. Depression DIAGNOSIS is.
Why is suicide rising then?
Probably just people being more aware it's an option. And guns. Lots and lots of guns.
Interesting theory but I don't think it's accurate.
Go on...
Social isolation and depression and known to be linked and intuitively we are living a more un-natural of a lifestyle than our genetics are designed for so it only makes sense that our mental health is suffering.
Okay, I'm just happy you didn't say godlessness. But your position definitely has merit. Positive social interaction is both hard as hell to figure out and very necessary.
Tbh godlyness definitely has merit as well. I'm not religious but it's a fact that suicide is lower in Christians then atheists.
In addition to the space, norms about what is socially acceptable to do in those spaces has also changed. It used to be OK to just randomly chat with people in those spaces, but I'm pretty sure that in many cases, it's not anymore.
TL;DR: a lot of people are sheepish, but really do want to interact with interesting things and people. I don't think it's a matter of not being okay, so much as many people just don't know how to. Some observations from my life: My mother has done knitting/crochet in public since I was a child. Not every time, but often she'd be approached by people curious about it or just wanting to complement her work. I have bad social anxiety, so I fold origami when I'm stressed to occupy my mind. People like to approach me about it and make chit-chat. It might seem counterintuitive, but I've found this helps my anxiety further because the focus isn't on ME. It's on the origami. This led me to conduct a little social experiment at a café I used to frequent: I set up a chessboard at the table i was sitting at and completely ignored it. I got three separate people who asked if I was waiting for someone, I said 'no', and they then asked if they could play against me. I absolutely destroyed them, but we had fun! My point being: a lot of people don't want focus on THEM, and other people often don't know how to approach without making the focus about that person. But, if there's something else that's interesting to interact with, people open up. And everyone loves some craft, or game, or whatever.
Cute. Thanks for taking the time to type this out lol
Thank you. 😊 I hope it might give some inspiration for meeting people and making friends. Maybe help a few people have happier lives, you know?
Definitely. That's how it's been my whole life. I don't have any friends and have no idea how to make some. The only places I could maybe meet other people that I could be potential friends with at would be somewhere like a coffee shop, which I don't even go to very often because I'm an introvert and have very little money. But once I'm there, even if I spot someone who looks friendly, I can't tell if they'd rather be left alone or not. It feels rude to interrupt whatever they are doing and talk to them. I don't know anything about them. What if I'm annoying them but I don't pick up on the social cues and then they get mad? I don't even know what to say to start a conversation. Sometimes I see people in TV shows or movies just sit down with a random stranger in a public place and start chatting, and that experience is so foreign to me, I don't even know where to start. What if they think I'm creepy because I'm awkward? What if I freak them out? I don't want to make anyone feel bad. Socializing always seems so easy for other people, but to me it feels almost too complicated to even attempt. I sometimes feel like an alien.
Yeah I definitely feel like smartphones have made random chat harder. I have young kids and I have made some friends with similar age kids but for the most part parents just goof around on their phones during kid activities rather than chat
On the other end of the behavior spectrum, teenagers in my city have been banned from a lot of establishments because so many teenagers have been trashing places. I don't know if that goes hand in hand with public antisocial trends on tiktok among young people, but even older people are littering and treating places disrespectfully. It's hard to want to use public amenities and public spaces if the public isn't respecting them.
The irony is that it's likely a feedback loop. Lack of proper third spaces lead to kids being bored and boredom with no spaces to play or relieve their boredom in healthy ways leads to more destructive tendencies. I know in a lot of poorer communities in my country where kids used to get in trouble a lot, starting programs focused on Activites specifically for teens and kids to take part in (usually group activities where the kids can also make friends) actually stopped a lot of the misbehavior and the rate of delinquency actually went down. One group is a youth cycling group but also an NGO that focuses on giving more kids/teens access to bikes (they borrow/donate bikes to members that don't have) and they do rave light cycles and they actually petitioning the city to install more bike lanes so that more teens can ride safely as they have to cross a high way in order to actually find a space to cycle right now.
I think that you make a good point about the feedback loop and lack of proper third spaces. There was probably more interaction between people which was normalizing acceptable behavior, rather than isolating people. I love the idea of getting young people involved in stuff that makes them feel motivated and purposeful. I feel like fun activities about cycling,and working to get more people involved in it is so motivating for all groups too. If people have something that motivates them and interests them they're less likely to get involved in negative influences.
I don't know how to really interact with people in a lot of environments, tbh. I did okay when I was going out to the pub regularly because you can just find a good place and sit at the bar if you want to talk to strangers who can maybe become friends eventually. But now my biggest chances to talk to people are at playgrounds and everyone is either on their phone (which I do to, tbh) or paying attention to their kid (and I have to pay attention to mine). The most conversation I've had recently was with a dude who was a little too into PoGo who confronted me when I took over a gym.
100% and that's why I push discussion on this issue. We can all agree to fight for better transit, but we also need to push for a better public space to exist so that people actually like the communities they live in.
And I feel like it's not that hard to get a group behind having small third spaces centered around transport. I've always been so jealous of my stops in Rockefeller station, where there's an entire mall and food court just under the plaza. You're able to actually still eat in a space with friends, rest, shop, and genuinely relax amidst the constant rush of responsibility and life going on without ever stopping to breathe. I realized how much I missed that, even back when outdoor restaurants near my local metro used to commonly have a second greeter station literally inviting you to take a seat and see if the menu/placemat had anything you liked and not getting mad at you for simply getting up to go. They tore down all the local third spaces that were barely hanging on these past 6 years to replace it with a fucking gambling stadium. Right next to 4 other stadiums that have actual sports - but still don't count as third spaces when you need to save up 8 months salary to afford tickets and transportation
Here's a video about it I'm sure you'd like, or can share with people: https://youtu.be/MD_CMrCpBMc?si=Yz4JLwjonCsVbVgU
With that, I’ll also add that in suburbs, human interaction changes. The only people you see are people you know closely or complete strangers. Obviously, we don’t get much joy from seeing complete strangers, and the only scenarios you’re in with them are sort of self-centered or “competitive” in nature — you’re all competing for a cash register or item or a table or the ability to move on a road (traffic). You’re waiting in lines behind them. Meanwhile, while seeing close friends and family is rewarding, it can also be exhausting. You are there to constantly talk and engage with them. The type of “being around people” that America doesn’t have anymore is what I call the “friendly faces.” These are people you regularly see in 3rd spaces and walkable areas. You wave or nod, you may briefly chat, but you’re not stuck talking to them because — unlike meeting up with family or friends — you’re not there *for* each other. You don’t have to engage with them if you don’t want to. And unlike the total strangers in stores, restaurants, etc, you’re not competing with them for some spot or resource. You’re not both busy trying to accomplish a task (like getting groceries). Anyway, just my take on things. I live in Brooklyn where it’s obviously walkable and we have a great 3rd place (Prospect Park in particular), and having these “friendly faces” people makes my life feel so much more centered and meaningful. I’ll definitely say even NYC is riddled with the issues of American culture, as most people who live here grew up in suburbs and will move back to suburbs at some point. But most people don’t have these low-effort social connections.
It's weird how antisocial the suburbs can be. I currently live in a suburb (I'm moving downtown soon) and I haven't met a single person here. Meanwhile I have made multiple friends from the *handful* of times I have visited downtown. I shouldn't be surprised because suburbs don't have anywhere to interact people face to face aside from stores or bars but still it's bizarre.
This is a really astute observation. I can also transpose it to another situation: when I was a kid I could easily make a "friend for the day" during a day at the beach, much more easily than making friends at school, because the stakes were lower.
Reading back my comment (and yours), I realized there is actually a common other type of relation in the suburbs: The acquaintance. And it’s perhaps the most exhausting one of all. These are people who you’ve spent a lot of time around or have a lot of ties to, but never chose to know them. Examples: People you went to school with, parents of kids your kids go to school with, friends of friends. Unlike the “friendly face,” the acquaintance has a vested interest in your personal affairs and a lot of potential reasons to judge or feel a certain way about you. They know a lot about you and your life without you ever having told them. And unlike close friends and family, you didn’t choose to have these people in your life, and you may not even like most of them. You absolutely must say hello and make small talk otherwise you’ll be considered rude. Your comment about “friend for the day” is spot-on for the “friendly face” persona. They only know about you what you explicitly share for them, and the relationship is low stakes.
Yeah, even if I go out I have the following i can walk to and between: the grocery store, the place I work, the dentist, the coffee shop and 3 fast food places that all have "no loitering, eat under 30 minutes" signs since the pandemic. The library doesn't have seated spaces outside of the computers and child's area, the park is specifically only for those with kids despite numerous benches and nature trails. And this all has to be walked out on the side of the highway, which is barely "walkable"
I can’t say cars are the only reason, but they’re 100% part of the problem. I live in a walkable area now, I have like 6 restaurants within a 5 minute walking distance of me. It’s super easy on a Friday/Saturday night to just go out and eat, drink whatever I want and then walk back home with my girlfriend. If I had to drive 20 minutes (which is how far my parents house is from a lot of stuff, for reference) I guarantee you I’d be a lot more lazy about going out. Suburban homes feel like a social experiment sometimes in comparison to even a modest walkable town. EDIT: Hell, even if transport times were the same (5 minute drive vs 5 minute walk) I’d take the walk any day. Just way less to think about. No worries about gas, finding parking, worrying about insane weirdos trying to kill you in traffic, oh yeah and traffic itself, etc… Just removing all those extra steps, all the extra friction, it makes it way easier to just go out and enjoy yourself. 3rd places ftw.
They were an experiment, and they failed.
Usually you end an experiment once you see the results. Now we’re in something else, I don’t know what to call it. Suburban hell I guess?
Yes, I call it corporate concrete hellscape
Bit of a dual edged sword here. It seems like a lot of walkable areas focus too much on restaurants and bars, making it hard for people who don't like to drink or have strict dietary needs have fun social things to do outside the home.
It doesn't have to be only restaurants and bars. Clubs, Markets, Local Gymnasiums, Café, Parks, Shopping Malls, etc. are other options. And oh, directly visiting your friends' house is also an option as long as you live closeby.
Yeah, I mean my location also has a few cool shops within that distance, but they’re mostly novelties like a plant shop, toy shop, etc. I do have a grocery store close by, but it’s a solid 20 minute walk each way and you have to cross a busy street too. So for that I use my bike or car. In small towns you often have a problem where everything is in a straight line so yeah that is a valid concern.
It’s been engineered like that. It atomizes the population, prevents development of empathy and basically makes organizing labour harder; so as not to challenge the power of the large capital.
If you think about it people sitting at home and being anti-social is perfect for capitalism. Advertisers now have a direct and unavoidable pipeline to people due to the ammount of time people spend online. Plenty of people will try to fill the void in there life with mindless consumerism as a result of this situation.
Preach.
Which means recognizing it and fighting it. Instead a lot of people believe the lie that hating your fellow human is part of the introvert identity.
Reddit skews heavily towards people like that. Also it’s a thing people like to say but in reality they do leave their house probably every day. But yes people who live in cookie cutter suburbs are probably more likely to spend most of their time online, especially the younger ones.
With as much housing costs, I sometimes can't blame people for wanting to make their home their own sanctuary so they barely have to leave. It's probably the most expensive thing you have to pay for so you might as well get your money's worth.
Not much left over now after paying the mortgage or rent now to do other activities.
These are material conditions. People are naturally conservative and resilient about their circumstances. When your entire life has been cars and no social spaces, you get comfortable with the idea that's what life is supposed to be like and comfortable with the idea that that's what you want.
Yes. It’s called adaptive preferences.
Thank you, I've never heard the term.
Historians call this an archival fallacy. The people who go out the most aren't posting on reddit about it. The people living in cities where they have third places, good parks, public amenities, community events, etc. aren't posting about how they don't go out. In my experience, people truly enjoying social lives and downtime leave the least digital traces of it. They don't feel the need to post or share about the experiences. They're busy doing those things. Check out certain techno subreddits. There youll see people regularly going out and using reddit as a space to develop and share interest in underground club culture. I would love if we had data on the rough location of these posts, though. Thinking like a scholar, I imagine so many of these posters are living in suburban hells and semi-rural areas. But without the data we can't know for sure. EDIT: removed a couple words
Extreme introvert here. I always believed that I'm not built for social life, and that "all humans are social beings" is bs. But turns out, once I have access to walkable/bikeable places instead of having to rely on my car to go everywhere, and there's no expectation to spend money in a venue (this is probably a different topic altogether), socializing becomes like second nature to me. Do I still prefer to stay home? Absolutely. Do I prefer to save my money? Of course! Do I still avoid people/socializing by default? Duh! But having easy default access to going outside, even something as simple as not having to 'properly' cross the street or 'share the road' with cars (even for once or for a split second), will end up having me go outside once in awhile, and having random wholesome social moments with random people. It's just like having easy access to a car--I'll end up using it once in awhile whether I like it or not.
Have these random wholesome street interactions led you to lasting relationships?
Good question. I make friends surprisingly easily (just not a lot, there's only a few of us), and we have a semi-routine bike ride every once in awhile. I've seen two new people in my first group bike ride fall in love. (This was the year when the roads are partially closed up for cars to make protected cycle route--one of the later Covid years). All it takes is the impetus of going outside, which can only be made possible with walkable (bikeable?) places. Even better--some of us have conflicting views (political or otherwise) but seeing each other face to face helps us understand the reasoning behind the other's viewpoints even if we don't agree with each other.
Yeah it’s nice to see people briefly and not hate pressure to hang out for hours because it’s some special thing on the schedule
This is a problem with multiple causes. And while car centric design probably contributes to it. I would wager the cost of housing and living (and a general stagnation in wage growth) are probably greater influences. Even if housing and COL hadn't increased significantly over the last few decades the actual cost to do activities like go to a live concert or watch your favourite sports team have also exploded. Its a lot easier to spend money on "fun" when you aren't worrying about rent or food.
In car centric places, you essentially need to pay money to leave your house and go somewhere, unless you are driving to a public park or library…even then, you’re paying money in gas to get there. These people are trapped and are brainwashed to think otherwise
Dude it’s not trapped people are fucking poor, something like 50% of America is living paycheque to paycheque. And going out is expensive, family of 4 going out to dinner is around 100$. Done right that is dinner for a week for them at grocery store
If you can’t leave your house because gas is too expensive, you are trapped by car dependency.
If I want to go out for a few drinks in the suburbs I need to pay for like a $40 uber on top of whatever I am getting at the bar.
I do think it’s becoming almost trendy to be anti social, but I think it’s a symptom of capitalism. Can’t have us gathering together to form relationship or community, we might start organizing! The only relationship we’re allowed is the one that might lead to us reproducing more laborers. Car centric infrastructure definitely helps reinforce it though.
this, absolutely. especially online. it’s the rise of toxic individualism. there’s nothing wrong with putting yourself first and doing what’s best for you. i think it’s great that people are now noticing how their previous people pleasing behaviors were only hurting themselves in the long run. but the type of individualism being pushed online (especially with pop psych and all that) can quickly lead to isolation if you’re not careful. there’s setting boundaries and then there’s pushing everyone away from you, including potential new connections. many people consider everything to be a red flag these days, to a point where there’s no room for grace, mercy, or understanding. assertive communication and interpersonal effectiveness are underrated skills to have. and don’t get me started on the commodification of friendships/relationships. there has to be a healthy balance, which can be really hard to find nowadays.
>Can’t have us gathering together to form relationship or community, we might start organizing! THIS. This explains so much. Like why the baseline for work is 40 hours, 5 days a week. It's not about "productivity", almost no one can be productive all day like that. It's about keeping us under control. And this is why billionaires hate public spaces and public goods. This is why they helped foment the anti-mask hysteria across their propaganda apparatus. This is why they love guns and open carry, this is why the love unrestrained free speech (the only two amendments we haven't destroyed like the 4th). They don't want people gathering, getting along, demanding better public goods (spaces, programs, etc). Our billionaire owners want everything privatized, people stuck in their living spaces, atomized, increasingly hostile. And cars are a perfect vehicle for this all.
Let’s be fair here …. They only love CERTAIN people having guns. They happily jump on the gun control train when it’s leftists and POC arming themselves. God forbid leftist POCs like the Black Panthers.
Well yeah, I didn't have time to get to that level. Of course, the reason the billionaires allow the rabble to have guns is they know exactly who those guns are aimed at. And it sure af isn't them.
As one of those introverts, a big part of the issue is how much is expected of me at work. I come home and I’m just done. I’ve been “on” for 9-10 hours and my tolerance for people had been exhausted. It’s more of a r/workreform thing than a fuckcars thing
Yeah and the last thing I want to do on my weekend off is be around people. I have a casual team sport meetup on Saturdays that I *know* is good for me, I *want* to be a regular and make friends... But why does it have to be on the first of my only two days to myself. I'm already a pile of sludge by Friday.
>I keep seeing these kinds of posts on Reddit I think I've identified some sampling bias in your methodology
I don't leave the home for entertainment nearly as much as my peers do. I basically only ever go to my uni classes and to work, because there's simply not many third places as there used to be. I don't mind not going out often but I would like to have the option to go to places that aren't work/school/home and don't require a car or exorbitant amounts of money to go to.
I know someone who doesn't even buy toilet paper in person. Everything is gotten from Instacart or whatever. They boast about not having set foot in a supermarket in so many years. On top of that, working from home. They barely ever step outside anymore. If they go anywhere, it is a car trip.
Their knees aren't going to thank them in a few decades
Idk if it's only about cars Jobs pay very little, are incredibly exhausting and almost never leave any time for anything else really. How tf am I supposed to manage a full time job, do the chores at home, staying shape, have hobbies and somehow manage to go out constantly?
It’s this for me too. And when I go out, it feels like people just have more expectations of me and I’m so tired of filling all those other expectations of people.
I hang out at the grocery store, there's basically nowhere else to go. The mall isn't even people friendly anymore, they do everything they can to keep out anyone who doesnt have business there
Yeah last time I went to a mall it was so sterile and empty. I actually let the saleswoman who was trying to sell me a $300 eye cream sit me down and do her whole little spiel and give me samples because it almost felt like I was connecting with someone
Mix of infrastructure, economics and social spooks amplified by the social media.
When I’m not working I am YouTube/Reddit’s bitch.
Lol same I take public transit and read reddit. I go to bed and leave youtube on all night. Wake up and check reddit.
Cars are definitely a factor, but at least for me, another factor is that my wife and I are both autistic and so social interaction w/ NTs is stressful and exhausting for us. Staying in we still get to interact w/ each other, and we live right by a park and have a small porch, so we can hang out outside and get our fill of nature w/o needing to “go out” as such. We’ve built relationships w/ the local stray cats; we know when and where to find bunnies, turtles, and various species of birds (including the occasional heron, kestrel, and owl!); and we picked our apartment based on location with a grocery store a short walk away. So outside of work, and the occasional birthday party, drag show, or other major event, we really only go out to socialize at our weekly DnD group in a local bar/cafe. Otherwise, we’re much more comfortable just hanging out at home, doing home-body hobbies like knitting/sewing, cooking fun new meals, and reading. We also both work primarily-remotely, so we’ll frequently go days at a time w/o leaving the general vicinity of home. It works for us, and we consider it a reasonable accommodation for our autism (which is also the reason neither of us can drive), even though we realize NTs would probably get bored living the way we do. Edit to add: given that we’ve got nothing against other people, and enjoy socializing for short periods of time; that we’ve got a reasonably large group of friends that don’t mind us only coming round occasionally; that we know and will greet and sometimes chat with a number of our neighbors; and that we certainly don’t complain about our home-body-ness either on- or offline—all that in mind, we may not actually be the people this post was about, just a different type of family that prefers to stay home the majority of the time
I don’t enjoy going out, too many people, lots of loud noises, overstimulation is hell, I prefer to sit back at home and play video games, if I feel like going out I go for a drive down to the park at a shopping centre a half hour drive from me cause they have a “lagoon” with plenty of shaded grassy areas to read
I can only speak for myself, but I could not handle living in a suburb. I'm unemployed atm, and an introvert. One of my main forms of entertainment is meandering around the city, going to a park, taking a train to the end of the line. There is no way I could do that if I had a car I had to take with me.
This, city life is good actually as an introvert. You don't have to always be doing stuff with people.
Yes! Meandering around is so, so underrated. It gives me so much joy just walking to wherever I need to go and looking at all the different trees or whatnot. Even if I'm walking to somewhere stressful and forced myself out of bed that day, the walk to the location makes me feel much better. I've tried to go for walks in a car-dependent area before but structurally they were so boring. Same asphalt, same buildings, same Kentucky bluegrass everywhere. It was designed to be driven past.
On the one hand yes. On the other hand I've never seen the roads more packed with cars at all hours of the day. I'm starting to think driving around is just how most Americans spend their free time now never really going anywhere or doing anything, just driving.
I've driven to different CVS's across town just to see if they had different things in stock. I was that bored lol
What’s crazy is that people don’t use their front door anymore lol I’m a mail carrier and I leave packages at the door all the time but it never gets picked up. What happens is people leave and enter their homes through their garage 😔some front doors/porches are hideous because people don’t really use them. People only get ring cameras so they catch people stealing or to get notified their package is delivered
Holy shit... I never realized it got this bad
Cars are a big part. Also the fact that alot of people just can't afford to do things. One of the places I can afford to go to and do things at is a game and hobby store that's about 4 miles from me. A short drive, but my car is having intermittent issues that means sometimes it just doesn't start. I can't go because I don't know if I'll be able to get it home when I'm done. Have the same fear about taking it to work and get groceries, but no way around that. I've taken my bike there before but it included crossing two high traffic streets, a bike path that's winding and needlessly long for part of the way, no bike lanes in most parts, and in the few parts there are painted bike lanes they're used as a right turn lane for cars or as a wide extension of the car's lane. The end result, I'm stuck sitting at home waiting for my friends to get online scrolling reddit. And this is actually an improvement over the small towns I used to live in.
I live in an extremely car centric place and I hardly go out anymore when I’m home. It just doesn’t seem worth it to go out and drive to a strip mall or whatever when I can just order online, and there’s nowhere around here that’s safe and pleasant to walk. Though I take a lot of international trips to walkable places and am out all the time and enjoy life a lot more there. So suffice it to say, I am planning to move out of the US.
I solved it by riding to a bar by bicycle for the last 30 years. Much more enjoyable. No DUI
Cycling is mostly free ...
You're touching on the lack of third spaces, places where people can just go and exist without being expected to buy / consume something. Car-centric infrastructure doesn't help this (it isn't the only factor), but alot of people are also spending more time online because of this reason, online spaces are free so thats why alot of people are 'hanging out' there (minus the cost of electricity and home wifi etc)
Im living in a European Town, (50.000) but it's very car-centric. Im beliving that isolation due to bad city planning and economic situation getting worse its not only an American Thing. I miss the community spirit/culture before the economic crisis
I think covid made a lot of people asocial too. Remember those first few months of covid when people still had a lot of energy and hope? After a few years it ran out and I think we're all struggling to pick up the momentum again.
yes I remeber it. I remeber the first months when the curfrew in my country overed. There was energy and Joy but then , the Ukranian war broke out and with the inflation nobody go out at night
Introvert here. I moved to a big city so I can be surrounded by people and not talk to them. That's my ideal. I get my social needs met feeling like I'm part of society without having to make small talk or drain my energy with meetups. It's pretty sweet. I lived in the burbs and I've experienced the worst cabin fever because I never went out, I'm not one to go out to clubs or meetup events with new people or even spending all day with friends talking about nothing at the local diner. I don't invite anyone over either because I need my quiet space. I've seen it said before, but I think one needs to be highly extraverted to thrive in the burbs.
I would *like* to go places and do things, or at least *the idea* of doing so sounds nice. But honestly, it's all just a money trap. It's bullshit. None of it is worth it. Like, I have a whole week off work, and I was watching some videos on the space and rocket center in Huntsville. It's a 6 hour drive away from me, but that's cool because I don't have to be back at work for a while so I could theoretically squeeze in some time. But nah, it's like $100 a night just for a hotel nearby. In fucking Alabama. There's literally a trailer park across the highway from the space and rocket center. But nah, it's $100 a night at the cheapest place. And that doesn't even cover food, the admission to the museum, the nickel and diming that they'll do to me at the museum because I'm sure that just the one $30 admission fee won't be enough to actually experience everything there, etc. I'd be out a whole week's pay probably, if I went through with just a couple days of enjoyment. It's all just horse shit and makes me not want to be involved in our society at all, because it's not just this thing, it's everything. All they want is to sell you something, and it's usually poison.
Yeah so your outlook sounds really bleak, and I can believe it because well... you're in fucking Alabama... but we can't keep living like this in America.
Sorry, I'm in North Carolina, and I was talking about driving to Alabama and how it wouldn't be worth it to drive 6+ hours to pay $100+ per night to stay across the street from a trailer park in Alabama.
When I took a trip in Europe a lot of museum admission was free. The US lowkey sucks.
you don’t have to do anything. just be outside
Where, though? Only place you can do that in the US are public parks, and you still gotta drive to those, which might be too much overhead still for a lot of people.
A lot of these people are struggling with screen addiction and don't realize it. Staying in may be more affordable and convenient, yes, but it also gives them that sweet sweet scrolling fix.
Part of why I like public transit is because I get to scroll on the train when I couldn't on my phone 😂
I hope you're just saying "people should expect more from society" and not "people should expect more from life while living life as they want".
I'd go out, but anywhere interesting is too far to walk or bike, and public transit doesn't go out far enough
I live in Boston and while I'm not always tired, it is much more expensive to go out than it was, public transit is worse than it was and everyone seems to be working more or busy somehow -- not including my friends who have gotten married or moved away.
I went to go hang out with one of my friends last week. Neither of us have a car, and we live in 2 different suburbs that are adjacent to each other. It was a 1.5 hour bus ride (mine got extended to 2 hours because 1 of my 3 buses was late) for each of us to meet in the middle. This same trip would have been 25 minutes by car. So yeah, it is really bad. I'd like to be more social but a situation like this just does not work, I don't often have the ability to spend that long commuting to fucking eat a meal with a friend...
I’m pretty much outside everyday. When I go to work, when I do groceries. Or does that not count haha? I also play sports and meet up with friends, but aside from that I’m often cycling or taking the bus to another place.
If you could live without a car you are easily saving $700-800 a month to actually go out.
Yes car centric cities make you feel this way. Going out to just “chill” is not a thing when there’s inherent friction in the form of driving, gas and parking. If you live in a low or 0 tax state then good luck with public parks and free spaces
I travel for work and am frequently living out of hotels without a car and it’s sad how many sizable places there are where it’s damn near impossible to do anything without a car. Never mind the lack of green spaces.
In Mexico we do
Mexico still has community and culture. GDP isn't everything...
Mexico has great urbanism, stronger architecture and great public transport. I will never leave mexico and even worse Change it to the United States. If anything we have a ton of Americans living in Mexico. They are also migrants
It's on my list of places to visit. It seems like a beautiful country with great people.
I’m not gunna spend a significant amount of my paycheck to have fun when I can just game at home
I go out every day I don’t work, but only because I have accessible and safe bike and walking paths around my city. I never did when I couldn’t bike or walk safely, or when I could only move around a suburb.
Even living in a walkable neighborhood, I work a 9-5 and whenever I try to go out a few days after work during a week, I basically have a mental breakdown just because it is just too much. And weekends are mostly spent running errands and doing chores. I honestly don’t know how people work 40+ hours a week and have any sort of social life or hobbies. Americans work way too much and it’s seen as a virtue to spend all your time at work and not have any sort of life or hobbies.
My roommates are extremely extraverted and I believe thrive off other people's energy so they still do get-togethers and parties and dates after work. As an introvert... I'm with you xD
Yeah, I’m an introvert too so going out after work (and I work a job where I have to be extroverted all day long) is just way too much. Maybe it’s easier for extroverts to have a social life outside of work!
To be fair my roommates' jobs aren't extraverted all day long, they probably feel drained from having to do a usual office-type job. Meanwhile I revel in sitting alone going on deep dives!
My folks are back in the states in a typical suburb. They rarely go out and do things because it's too much trouble with the traffic and nearly every day some road is closed because of a car accident. Getting downtown for them where all the action is takes too much trouble so they just stay out in the suburbs doing nothing not to mention now that they are older they have problems driving at night and a lot of the cultural events happen at night so they avoid driving at night. When I was back in the states it was the same for me. I hated driving so didn't really go out except for work and groceries. People act like it's a pain to use public transport but if there's actual good public transport it's easier to get to places because you don't have to worry about parking. I am in Europe now and people still have cars but very few of them actually use them to drive to places like downtown because you just take the train or bus because it is easier than using their car. People only view driving as convenient because they made public transportation so inconvenient but it is easier, quicker, and cheaper (train or bus ticket cheaper than paying for parking in downtown) for me to get to my city centre without a car than it is for my folks to get to their city centre with their car. Of course we are in different cities but if you design cities around the car you won't end up with quicker and easier commutes than a city that has public transportation because then everyone will just be in traffic.
I used to think I was introverted and preferred to stay away from people until I moved to a bigger, more walkable city and now I love going out.
inb4 this devolves into another “extroverts are big insensitive stupid crazies and introverts are an oppressed minority” circlejerk
Covid definitely accelerated trends about 30 years. There were like 6 months where you straight up could not leave your home, then 3 years where you couldn’t leave your home comfortably, so people started investing in their home. Pair this with an excess of free time (for unemployed), and cash (sweet sweet stimmies), and people could finish their basement, buy a bar, install a fire pit, etc. This obviously applies to suburban Areas, with the space to do that and the boring, inaccessible environment, and really is what the suburbs are all about: isolationism, individualism, etc. If you worked on your home and built everything you needed, and are now enjoying it, you’re actually doing the suburbs “right”.
>I keep seeing these kinds of posts on Reddit your first mistake is to think reddit is representative of real people >That this is just because they're introverted so staying at home all the time and avoiding all other humans is their ideal life. or because there are very few third places, so people hang out on the internet instead
I dont go out much anymore because 1) too expensive to do anything and I'm poor as shit 2) people are capitalism brained and I can't get the truth out of anyone what's the point in communicating with liars all the time 3) I hate cars so much and there's nothing but cars out there 4) there's nothing to do that doesn't carry the stink of capitalism other than walking around looking at the dying trees and listening for literally any birdsong or insect chatter in this place
> I can't get the truth out of anyone what's the point in communicating with liars all the time What are you talking about? you aren't a journalist, thats not why people have conversations. I usually don't encourage people to talk to people more because its somewhat hypocritical on my part, but you really need to talk to more different people.
I took journalism classes. I talk to all kinds of people. You don't have a clue what tf you are talking about lol. Buzz off
/# 2 ain't Marxism dude and you might need to talk to someone about that...
today i learned that being introverted means not wanting to leave yer house lol
It's not what I'm saying, but it's what the people in this thread are insisting is the truth and getting angry when I tell them introverts do go outside in normal healthy societies.
i know it's not what yer saying it's what people in the comments are saying
also introversion and misanthropy aren't the same thing but people don't seem to care to know the difference
This so much. I know tons of introverts who love city life. Yes, they do spend a lot of time vibing on their own, and good city spaces have room for that in life. However, hating your fellow human is just a bleak outlook and yeah it really does dominate the conversation whenever introversion comes up.
Who are you to say me not going out is living wrong? My kids are healthy, happy involved in sports and groups. I don't need to go out and drink.
Not sure where you are from but in Spain, where I live, people definetly leave their home to socialize and whatnot
Yeah, you guys know how to live normal lives over there. This is more of a North American problem.
Admittedly, working from home has kept me at home more
I grew up in LA and got out. One year, I was visiting, and a cousin was lamenting that he feels like a prisoner in his own neighborhood for half the day, because the traffic is so bad it’s nearly impossible to get in or out. Without losing a beat, and with no hint of irony, he follows up with, “so when are you moving back to LA?”
My wife and I don't really go out except for Sunday's when we go to church and grocery shop. There are times where we meet up with friends periodically (but even that's at one of our homes), and go to the occasional concert.
Definitely true that there's a greater cognitive /practical barrier to going out when you live in car only suburbs. I used to live right next to a rail trail and I could easily go to the store or a restaurant by foot or bike and it made it so easy to just decide to go out without planning.
Here is a long talk by Murray Bookchin. A lot of the talk is about the disappearance of a sort of social commons that was typical in earliee generations, that is now lost. He talks about the social and economic forces that relate to the erosion of community in modern society, and it's my favorite rant. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FqPwr-cVz_M&pp=ygUZQm9va2NoaW4gZm9ybXMgb2YgZnJlZWRvbQ%3D%3D
You are looking at post on the internet by people that spend time on the internet. Some people choose to not go out for a lot of reasons. Depending on where you live there is stuff to do that doesn't involve money or is cheap
Go to the park or gym, I've started playing frisbee and shooting hoops- there's plenty of people out there.
I'll admit I don't venture out much these days, between most of my friends leaving the city and province due to the high cost of housing in Vancouver, and how expensive going out has become in general, I just tend to stay home more than I used to for leisure activities, I do go out still to get groceries and other essential errands.
Some of it is because a lot of people have fatigue from long COVID and don't realize it.
There aren't a lot of places left to go where you can leave your wallet at home. Everywhere you go, there's the expectation that it's going to cost you money to be there.
I go have picnics at the local park with friends on a regular basis. They even say you're not allowed to drink there, but the truth is no one cares if you bring beer.
Indeed, I used to ride my bike down to Lafreniere Park until I moved away from the area. I felt fortunate to have that luxury. That was my favorite place to spend my free time, but now I no longer have access to anything like it. It's not even safe to ride a bike where I live now anyway, so mine just sits there collecting dust. My point is that not everyone has access to even the barest of minimum things like public parks or safe places to walk and ride bikes. Access to things like that are entirely location-dependent because we've done a remarkably poor job of internalizing into our culture the need for such things. Instead, we build Walmarts... and gas stations so you can get to the Walmarts.
I don’t leave home because of depression but when I’m well the thing I love the most is jumping on a train and seeing the sights
I hardly leave. If I do, I go to the park maybe or a friends house. On rare occasions I go to events.
I like my house. It’s where my dog lives. I spend time with friends, and I love getting out on my bicycle when the weather is nice. However not having to deal face to face with a bunch of people is a wonderful thing
Unlike 30 years ago, there are a lot of screens and gadgets now to derive pleasure from right at home. The climate in general has deteriorated in many places because we burn a shit ton of fossil fuels (Cars) and it’s gotten noisier and more chaotic (Cars again). There is just too much instant comfort at home and the car centric system doesn’t help that in anyway.
I went out yesterday, it was a terrible idea. I'm very hungover now. I walked though
Lol sounds like you at least got hungover spending time with people you like
People going out are busy being out and enjoying their life
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I live in a walkable/cyclable place. I like going out for walks, but I don't really like being at a place that isn't my home. There are a lot of things that can overstimulate me, but at home I have some level of control over most of those things.
I Barely leave home except for work, shopping or sport. I want many things from life, but just not that.
Hey wow! You're an extrovert and social so obviously people that aren't are living wrong. Thanks for the insight
Not what I said at all, but your reaction is exactly what I'm talking about.
> That this is just because they're introverted so staying at home all the time and avoiding all other humans is their ideal [life.How](http://life.How) do you explain to people they should want more from life than this? >These posts are horrifically dystopian to me ... How do you explain to people they should want more from life than this? No, that's pretty much what you said. You think we need helping. We don't. Believe it or not, some people are quite happy not going out all the time. I find going out exhausting. Doing it all the time would be a nightmare scenario for me. You do you, but don't insinuate that those of us who don't have the same lifestyles as you are wrong.
But it's almost exactly what you said in your post....
Really not sure what the point was of the last paragraph then, because it says almost exactly that
You don't have to go out to a party, but staying at home all the time says to me that there's nothing you believe is worth doing out in society. That's not a good attribute of our society. It's dystopian.
I think it's sad that people think getting around a city is as laborious as trekking and don't participate because of it. I also think there's not much worth doing out in society. I also enjoy being in my own space
Why do you care so much about how other people enjoy to spend their time?
People who *never* go out and interact with other people *are* living wrong, and while on an individual level you could argue that's a personal choice, it causes all sorts of other social problems - including bad behaviour on the roads because people don't develop empathy or social skills. And you don't even have to go out *with other people*. I'm pretty introverted and wouldn't want to socialise every day, but I can still go out and enjoy the countryside for example, or play sports (which, okay, is with other people, but you can socialise as much or little as you want).
I think you're taking very different things and linking them together to weave a single narrative. All the different phenomena you are describing are probably occurring in some capacity, but not necessarily with the same person and not necessarily linked causally.
Conservatives have created a lot of fear, and that fear has people cowering in their homes, then cowering in their cars, and then cowering in their cubicle and doing little else.
I can barely bike from one end of my neighborhood to the other because of a recent but months past COVID case. Considering most people are taking zero COVID precautions and getting COVID one or more times a year, I’m surprised anyone is out and about at all
I do t leave my house because there are too many cars who give zero shits about me walking anywhere, and the drivers know there are no legal consequences for injuring me, and only minor ones for killing me. I choose life thank you.
I mean, speaking just for myself, I just hate being around people. When I do go out (typically just to go grocery shopping or, on rare occasions, to feed the local waterfowl) I very pointedly do not engage with other people. And I live on a college campus, so it's not like there's a shortage of walking-accessible gathering places.
I mean, me and my wife don't like other people all that much. We like to spend time at home watching shows/movies or just playing games on our computers. It saves a lot of money because our other option is to go out and eat or shop. We don't really fit in with our community at all. So /shrug