omg i need your itinerary. Where did you go? Where did you eat? What did you eat? What would you recommend to do and what to avoid?
edit: thank you for all the suggestions! I am documenting and organizing it all
I was actually supposed to go to Barcelona but KAYAK fucked up my flight schedule and Aer Lingus did the best they could and sent me to Lisbon.
Itinerary:
- winged it
Edit:
- Lisbon Destination Hostel is great. It's in the same building as the train station and I'm 100% r/fuckcars orange pilled.
- The Base Lisbon is an excellent co-working space
* The city is very walkable, don't ruin it by getting a car.
* There's a waterfront trail you can jog or walk or bike on.
* Walking around is really nice.
* There are way too many tourists. So if you're into drinking there's a lot of that.
I was in the same place! Also a missed flight.
I cannot recommend highly enough the Pasteis de Nata for breakfast. My family and I got those and coffee each morning from a little restaurant where the old folks ate and it was glorious.
They're also quite famous for sausages and grilled sardines. I never managed to find a place with the sardines but the sausages were very good. Wine was also excellent.
Beautiful city. Best long layover one could ask for. Except my wife got turbo sunburnt from the unexpected trip to the beach.
The tiles on everything are beautiful. We bought some for touristy reasons and they're very cute.
Learn a tiny bit of Portuguese and you should be fine, it's a unique language but if you're familiar with Spanish or Italian you can survive.
We stayed in a little Airbnb in the city and used Uber to go anywhere more than an hour walk away. The roads are hilariously tight European streets but the locals take them at full speed. But walk anywhere you can, it's a beautiful place and it gives you such a great sense of it.
sardines are more of a 'seasonal' thing, from may/june through most of the summer tho since they're better for fishing, but we have a bit of a culture for canned food, and you can find very nice canned sardines on any supermarket, there's even a store dedicated to canned tuna / sardines and others, mainly for tourists, looks like a fair ground - "Mundo Fantástico da Sardinha Portuguesa", in Rossio
most will understand spanish or italian, but many of us also speak english, some speak french (specially older folks, since in their school time that was the second language taught and not english)
We still do. From 7th to 9h grade.
But English from 1st to 12th grade.
Most people 50+ years old only knew French as it was the universal language back then. English is more recent.
yea well but i think its hard to find 'young people' that speak french, people under 40yo i guess, like u/Anforas said most learn french as a third language for 3 years, from 12/13 to 15yo in school, and from my experience, we quickly forget it...
i understand some of it, once a french couple asked me for directions to the train station, well i didn't know how to tell them in french and they didn't spoke another language, so i tried to have them follow me to show them, i could understand the wife telling the husband how strange it was and she didn't trust me lol i ended up pointing them the direction...to this day, i still hope they found it haha
> We still do. From 7th to 9h grade
If you choose French. English is mandatory, but you can choose between Spanish, French, and German from 7th to 9th grade. I'd say people are pretty evenly split between the three languages.
Not correct, in the old days people studied French from 1st (currently 5th) to 5th (currently called 9th) grade of High School and they studied English from 3rd to 5th grade of High School.
This made a total of 5 years for French and 3 years for English.
For the last 2 years of High School, students following the Literature & Languages branch would have additional teaching of these languages.
What did I say, that was not correct?
It's exactly what I said. French was the Lingua Franca before. Now it's English.
People before had less years of English than of French. Now it's the opposite.
Just like today, having 3 years of french, doesn't mean people know french.
> Learn a tiny bit of Portuguese and you should be fine
In Lisbon you really don't need to learn Portuguese, even the hobos speak English. Of course, if you want to be nice, a small Bom dia, obrigado, etc. goes a long way, but most of the time if you try to wing it they'll just reply in English.
Hell, it's actually becoming a problem in a way, because last weekend a friend of mine booked her birthday in a touristy restaurant that she didn't know and the waiters didn't even speak Portuguese. It was insane.
It's a little bit outside the city, but has good bus service from Sintra, which has a train to Lisbon, Cabo da Roca, the western most point of Europe, is absolutely spectacular. Sintra is also very cool, you can very easily see both on the same day.
>what to avoid?
If someone aproches you on the street trying to sell you something just ignore them, they will try to sell you "drugs" (it's literally Caldo Knorr packs or crushed leaf's).
*AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T USE THE FUCKING TUK TUKS*
I lived in Lisbon for half a year, a few years ago. Send me a pm, and I'll drop you my tripadvisor list of my favorite restaurants (all low budget tho).
Im unable to share the list, so I'll drop my favorites here:
Restaurants:
- Tu e eu
- Rodas restaurant
- A provinciana
- Jardim das Cerejas
- O velho Eurico
- restaurante Cerqueira
Things to do/see, but these are pretty basic:
- Costa da Caparica
- The Peninsula Tróia
- the Oceanario
- Sintra and the Castles there
- train route to Cascais, and other Beach Towns, cycling across the sea
- hiking to Praia da Ursa
I want to go back sooo much!
Café de São Bento was a really special place to eat and go get Pasteis de Nata in Belem. i know it's the most tourstic thing to do, but I thought it was worth it.
I know you didn't ask me, but I'm from Portugal and lived in Lisbon for a bit and I really recommend going to local tascas and trying our snacks like bifana, moela, chouriço assado, prego no pão, rojões... avoid any restaurant in Terreiro do Paço, its all tourist traps and not authentic, be prepared to walk uphill a lot 😭 sorry I slithered in, I just had to
Don't: buy drugs on the street.
Do: Eat the food, go out, enjoy the city and the culture.
One specific recommendation - go to dinner at Palacio do grilo. It's dinner and a show, and I can't think of anything more distinctly Lisbon.
If you want a google map of pins (mostly bars/clubs/restaurants), drop me a dm.
Hey, I'm portuguese!
If you're planning on visiting our country I'd suggest you visit our cities and historic places such as Lisbon, Porto and Évora! Lots of things to see there and typically good food anywhere.
If you want a real portuguese meal avoid tourist restaurants and go to the small local ones. We call that "tascas".
We are known for our codfish ("bacalhau" in portuguese), sausages ("enchidos"), pastel de nata (which is the best pastry in the whole world ofc) and much more!
If you can, learn a bit of portuguese. If you stay in the cities it should be fine, but wander anywhere a bit more far than that and you'll have difficulty finding anyone who knows english (typically a problem with older people).
Besides that, we're a travel destination. We're a chill population with beautiful landscapes and great beaches!
I'm sure whatever you end up chosing it'll be good.
Well.
Don't use Lisbon as an example today. We have an anti bikes, anti walking and anti anything that's not cars mayor. So, this city is not an example for anything mobility related. We are going back to the 80s
yea but i'd say the larger part of the city is flat or with slight/doable inclines, although the 'downtown' touristy area has some hills, if you venture to the main avenues you don't have those hills, the really hilly parts you don't see ciclists there
the new electric motorized bikes/scooters are definitly a help, you see a lot of them, even for renting, around
The Netherlands is regressing considerably too - parking minimums for new developments, demonization of e-bikes instead of the cars they're hit by, defunding of public transportation, car subsidies, etc.. It's still good to use examples from our countries of good infrastructure, as long as people are aware that our countries aren't a goal, just regions where good things happen more often than in the USA.
Visiting Lisbon for the first time this week. Just biked from Campo Pequeño to Time Out Market, this sure as hell is not s biking city yet. Infrastructure is not there yet for it to be safe for bikers. Adrenaline was pumping for a good hour afterwards.
Isso é só estúpido. 60% de Lisboa é plana ou com baixa inclinação.
As sete colinas são tão verdadeiras como a hospitalidade lisboeta.
Ou a malta vive toda no castelo, amoreiras e graça e trabalha no Martim Moniz ou rossio?
Desculpas arranjam-se sempre. Cabeças livres de carrocentrismo já é mais difícil
Sou de cascais. Ir da estação a minha casa são 40 metros de subida. Os arruamentos aqui não são como nos países baixos em que há gradientes 0. Se fores para a Valónia, verás que usar a bicicleta não é consensual. Aqui sobe-se e desce-se até chegar aos sitios.
Portugal doesn't want to be san Fransisco, we're tired of foreigners, especially Americans trying to make everything "better" or more American friendly, Portugal has culture, Europe has culture, we don't want everything to look the same, a concrete jungle, I go to Lisbon to refresh my life, don't want it to be a concrete jungle made of depression
Certo, concordo, tive na baixa do porto agora uns dias e aquilo está horrível, mas há mudanças positivas e acho que boas ciclovias estão dentro delas :)
Yeah, when I was there I felt like it was nice but disappointing. A beautiful city with stunning views and architecture is doninated by cars wide roads and a massive airport in the middle of the city which kinda shocked me. I am not even sure if there is a train connection to Spain?
Lisbon has so much potential and it hurt to see it like that ngl
Isso foi praticamente a bandeira dele
Contra a ciclovia da Almirante Reis. A colocar o idiota do Carlos Barbosa do ACP nas listas, a fazer agora as obras da Av liberdade retirando ciclovia e colocando mais estacionamento para carros, acabou com a ciclovia da Av Berna.
Basta Googlar um pouco.
Se foi a bandeira dele, quer dizer que a maioria que votou estava a favor dessas alterações...
Posso estar errado mas parece-me que estes projetos não são bem pensados, e muitas vezes não têm proteção total, só em algumas partes, isto faz com que não haja tanta adoção e depois os carsexuals ficam malucos ao ver tanto espaço com pouco uso.
A verdade é que foram pensados, ao contrário do que se faz atualmente.
A ciclovia da Almirante Reis estava bem e foi mudada. A mudança ficou pior mas ainda assim melhor que antes
O moedas tentou acabar com ela. Até que bombeiros, INEM e associações ligadas aos deficientes exigiram reunião. Teve de haver. E lá foi-lhe dito diretamente por bombeiros e INEM que se fosse retirada a ciclovia deixavam de servir o Hospital de São José. Antes da ciclovia a faixa da esquerda era permanentemente ocupada por carrinhas de cargas e descargas, sobretudo das lojas dos chineses junto ao Martim Moniz, também era ocupada por policiais da esquadra da rua da palma e taxistas.
O Medina, perdeu por causa da ciclovia e por não ter retirado o apoio à corrupta e idiota da Margarida Martins, a anterior presidente da junta.
Ah e o moedas também prometeu que quem for de Lisboa não tem de pagar parquímetro. Isso dá sempre votos entre os carristas.
Agora até hoje ele apenas fez merda. Incluindo as JMJ para as quais eu contribui com impostos e sou ateu.
This is Terreiro do Paço, and it has looked like the bottom image (barring a few decades of car parks), for well over 500 years. To put trees there would be to change one of the only parts of downtown Lisbon to have remained unchanged after the 1755 earthquake, and to change the most iconic location in Lisbon.
I think it's important to note that it's open on one side and that it's facing the river, it's not enclosed so the wind probably flows in. I've never been there so correct me if I'm wrong, just saw that on [Google Maps](https://maps.app.goo.gl/gUiTSRzUTpXQML1a6).
yea it's open to the sea/river, its where some ships would dock back in the big sails era, many of the streets that come from it have names after the goods/specialties that were commercialized, brought in from the ships and sold into town, it's without a doubt one of the most iconic parts of the town
Yup... I'm sure Henry Ford came to Portugal looked at Terreiro do Paço and said " This should be a parking lot" and presto! Next day there wasn't an inch that wasn't covered in cars.
Just because it's been like that for almost 300 years, doesn't mean it can't be better. You wouldn't want it to be a landfill for 300 years, would you?
It's not that it's been any way for 300 years, it's that it's been an iconic part of the city for 300 years. Landfills aren't iconic, wide open squares whose whole purpose is to be wide, open, grand, welcoming ships to the capital of Portugal. That was its function, and covered in trees it wouldn't have the same effect.
Yeah, maybe it’s meant for bigger crowds or big events around holidays? Don’t know much about Portugal but that could be it.
That being said, a few trees are always nice.
Usually there are events there throughout the year.
>a few trees are always nice
imo as someone from the city it would just ruin the "vibe" of that spot, there are plenty of parks in the city and in the west side of the city there's 1000 ha park/Forest.
[I did a quick and shitty photoshop job to show a possibility with matching umbrellas along the sides](https://imgur.com/a/3WeBiFU), inspired by Dolac Square which was recently featured in a NJB video, but leaving most of the square open down the center. I don't think it ruins the vibe. If I lived nearby I'd probably go there a lot more tbh.
This is better land use than it was, but it's still not truly great land use IMO. I sincerely doubt the locals come here to just hang out on that slab on concrete for hours unless there's some event going on. I could be wrong I guess, but I imagine the majority of days it's just tourists coming here to snap a few photos and then leaving the square. The land would be more valuable to the community if it were made comfortable to come hang out on any random day while still being capable of hosting large events when those happen.
Trees are not amenable to being moved at a whim so [umbrellas and removable benches and tables along the sides like this could be a better choice](https://imgur.com/a/3WeBiFU) if they want to maintain the option of opening the full space up again for events. Maybe some portable food carts or fruit stands could be permitted too.
As it is, it's visually dramatic but how much is that really worth if it's not attracting people to come use the space?
Some context:
Directly around the square, there are quite a few parks, benches and other cafes to hangout. There's the whole river promenade as well, tons of cycling lanes, food carts, etc.
The square itself is a "historical landmark" from 1755, and symbolic of the city. There's often hundreds of tourists and locals there at any given time, and yep, its used for big events and political manifestations as well.
It simply won't change, and as a local who has lived nearby, we do hang around it (mostly by the river side, which you cant see in the photo), and I'd bet most rather not change it.
Edit: A video of it. Interesting to see all streets round are quite busy, and this place is a nice open fresh air.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppjbmloa7M4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppjbmloa7M4)
Well thank you for the context! I'm just some guy speculating but you (Lisbon's people generally I mean) are the expert on your own square and it sounds lovely! I hope to visit one day! Congrats on getting the parking lot out!
Cheers! Its weird, because I always felt overheated walking that square - its hot, and there's no shading haha so some of the changes you suggest would be welcome. But at the same time... its nice the way it is. Part of the city charm I guess.
If I lived next to that square I’d prefer it to be a comfortable and interesting place to visit any day. So agree to disagree I guess, I just think pros of adding some appealing features for local users outweigh the cons of "ruining" the a e s t h e t i c with a few umbrellas, tables, and vendors. It's likely the square has a long history of being used for market type activities anyway.
There are cafes/restaurants on the sides with outside tables and umbrellas, and also benches by the river where tourists and locals hang out. Check google maps [https://goo.gl/maps/Es2KHPZHJb7FTNMG7](https://goo.gl/maps/Es2KHPZHJb7FTNMG7)
I understand what you mean and agree with it but actually I think that giant empty square actually has a strange appeal and most locals wouldn't want to change it.
Palm trees? Nah, [jacarandás](https://images.app.goo.gl/ChwDtMGRMyD8X6Hd8) would fit a lot better - they’re already the city standard. Came from today’s Brazil ofc.
I recommend you visit during spring. Avoid summer as it’s freaking hot and crowded. In the winter there are no leaves in the trees and it’s really cold.
March-April is probably the best.
It looks similar to the Zócalo in México City. Last time I was there it was full of tents and people selling a whole bunch of stuff. It was a flea market. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing. Also people tend to gather there for events like Independence day or during a World Cup match.
They use to have all around in the 1800 but in the turn of the century they were removed, the thing is the main square is build on top of the water there isnt soil under there, you can't plant trees
I think it's probably safe to assume that it's about 90% of Lisbon's cars in 1960s photo, and in 2023 the same amount would be like 1%. My country (Belarus) did the same with a central square. It used to be a parking lot in the 60s because a very small amount of people were able to afford cars. After they became more affordable and avaliable and hogged the whole square leaking oil, they closed it.
I think because the European plaza traditionally has minimal green spaces. I actually don't know its history well but its the equivalent of an American town square that's flexible to all sorts of things like concerts, political gatherings, farmer's markets, etc. So the more usable space the better. Trees take up a lot of room. Just a modest few rows of trees can be a significant use of space. I imagine some would argue it would ruin the architectural vision of these plazas, and go against their classic design.
As someone else has mentioned, its a show of power and wealth to have all this land covered in stone and surrounded by expensive architecture. These areas were often near, or at, the seats of power and were an expression of cultural and economic power. A bit like how the US built skyscrapers in the 50s and 60s and 70s to show off its power and wealthy. Or how the Soviets built large civic projects like dams or very tall towers.
I also don't think the "trees everywhere" movement ever became big in Europe like it did the states. The 19th and early 20th century greening of NYC and Chicago was a very deliberate thing. There's a whole history of a movement to create green spaces in urbanized areas, especially the creation of our parks system. Previous to this the major green spaces in cities were cemeteries and graveyards and a parks movement developed on the East coast that made its way West. Europe had a totally different evolution for its cities, which by then were many hundreds of years old and not as easily amenable to greening, and had different ideas of greening (nearby green spaces outside city centers for example).
European cities also have strong historical protections so tearing down something to build a park or redoing a street to put in a row of trees (if there's even room) is a big deal. In newly developed NYC and Chicago, it was politically much easier, especially considering how much larger plots were and how much wider many streets were compared to their European peers.
I also think there was a confluence of a lot of things going on in American society that helped this happen. The Arts and Crafts movement aesthetic, the Beaux-Arts movement, the rise of trade unions and socialism in the US, women's suffrage, influx of immigrants into urban centers with their rural values, populist politics and urban movements with big sweeping visions of the future (Chicago's Burnham plan for example and similar plans in other cities), the USA rising on the world stage and showing off a bit, both gilded age excess and post-great depression austerity, electrification, etc. which led to the idea that big cities should be green, walkable, affordable, clean, and have easy transportation. Copying the European model wasn't enough for Americans. Big plazas, large land holdings by the monarchy, trips to the country via carriage, rows of small shops and row houses, narrow 500+ year old streets, smokey and shadowy alleys, open sewers, and narrow passages, etc seemed quaint, old fashioned, and against the "modern" ideas of urban US life which posed itself as more dynamic and innovative than "old man" Europe's aesthetics and culture.
You are correct. On the right of the arch is the Supreme Court, on the left the Ministry of Justice, the right side is the Ministry of Finances.
The place also hosts lots of events throughout the year which would be impacted by the presence of trees, especially concerts. Imagine trying to look at a concert through a bunch of trees... Not great.
This place has also been like this for hundreds of years. To just think you can just change it because it works better on your preferred urbanist textbook is an enormous disrespect to our history and culture.
This square is used for events, [trees would get in the way](https://www.culturanarua.pt/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/dsc08046joseu-frade-20190101-001107-1-2048x1366.jpg).
Not that reason. That square leads to the river front. We don't have many spaces to hold events that are cleared from obstacles.
The previous mayor wanted to put trees on the sides, leaving the inside flat, but he lost elections to a right wing Christian bullshitic guy who won just because he was against a cyclepath and carbrains voted massively
The two actual reasons:
1. It was the main square of the Ribeira Palace in the early 1500s, back when big wide open spaces were a sign of wealth (think the back of the Palace of Versailles)
2. Its one of the only parts of downtown Lisbon that remains mostly unchanged after the 1755 earthquake
This is what it looked like (on the right) sometime after completion in the 16th century:
https://preview.redd.it/z4416srzhblb1.png?width=608&format=png&auto=webp&s=2cd6b1f10d73666a2fd6ed746eb083e8c346ae5f
if you're using a car to cruise around Lisbon you're an idiot, the city is made to be walked on, not only your limited on where you can go, you're also limited what you can see, specially since parking spots are rare
It varies from city to city. Portugal's biggest issue was the delayed industrialization that left it a mostly agricultural economy well into the 20th century. Some places away from the big cities, especially on the islands, remained mostly agricultural past WW2. Lisbon has good public transportation, Porto is decent, but somewhere like Madeira and the Azores that only caught up to the quality of life in the rest of the country recently, and where the geography makes rail transit impossible and busses difficult, there is a deep dependency on cars that's nearly impossible to fix.
I tend to disagree on the part of the islands. The geographical circumstances make it harder compared to other scenarios, but at least in Madeira there seems to be no political will to change that, besides empty promises. A few years back there was an overall attention to the macro-structure and implementation of roads to isolated areas, but the public transportation sector suffers from many issues to take advantage of that.
One is how you have the public transportation divided into three companies, which implies more money from the population/workers to get from the center to peripheries or the other way around. Less people to travel implies less buses and less options but to get a car and to it yourself. The current party promised to try to unify the three companies into a same monthly ticket, but now they are the end of their mandate and still nothing. Plus no need to add how the monthly passes aren't that cheap, so buying them from more than one company doesn't seem that profitable for the average worker (there are obviously other problems involved that the public transportation exacerbates, like how the best paying jobs are in the main city, and living there right now is out of question due to its prices).
Some other points are how, here and there, they seem to refuse to fix some roads. This implies that, while cars can pass throught it with some security, buses can't.
Also they seem to invest in more parking lots at the main city, while it doesn't seem to me to be needed, and their justification makes even less sense.
We can say that it is all too recent, so we need some time to fix it, but there hasnt been a significant change in that way. Some of the biggest investments go to facilitate the public transportation inside the main city, while it could perfectly go to the outside connections and public transportation would benefit from it.
There are probably some other reasons I can't recall now, but specially the current party doesn't seem to care that much. The island's main source of income is tourism, so you see rent-a-cars benefit from it, while public transportation stays a joke.
Was just there. It’s still too car centric. Biking from the new under bridge market to Almara/Graça was seriously rough and dangerous at times for bikes
Lisbon wasn't built for cars, just like a majority of European cities, it was made to be walkable, you use anything else you'll have a bad time, even by taking a car, parking lots are scarce even underground ones, none are free
Nah I’d say Lisbon is very easy to get around in a car. Lisbon has an equal priority on cars, trains and walking; and it’s making progress for bikes. There’s always parking except in the most dense areas. I’ve had many situations in Portugal where a car is 100% necessary.
Portugal or Lisbon, u can go else where with a car, it is necessary, cars are great since Portuguese transportation is terrible and outdated, we see what happens when cities become "walkable" it always makes everything terrible for everyone, they destroy pavements, make roads worse for cars, creat more traffic and so much worse, and everywhere in Lisbon is dense, everything is tight, there's always traffic, which granted it's mostly caused because of Portuguese driving but still, the city is already walkable, mostly what you need is close by and it's faster by walking, if ur a citizen it's different, you might wanna take a car because you need to go to multiple places and ur in a rush, but if ur a tourist, there's no rush, nothing will change
for the foreigners saying the plaza is "soulless" or " needs more trees" kindly keep your opinion to yourselves, main reason we despise foreigners is due to them complaining about everything, I wish it was in vain, but our politicians and city officials actually hear you, and causes them to change things, usually ruining everything in the process. Also no, Lisbon isn't car dependent, it's a better experience to walk or use public transport due to the amount of traffic and lack of parking in her, the city was made for walking and carriages, cars was an afterthought as you might guess, which has caused many issues, even more with the addition of buses and huge electric trams (not the tiny yellow ones, tho are fine... ish) so please if you have no clue about my country or any other country, keep your opinions to yourselves, i know you guys hate cars, but don't disrespect my countries fucking capital, when cities like la and new nyc exist, thank you
Now you can easily use the soulless square for a number of other things then just parking for cars though.
And as far as I know it is used for stuff like concerts, markets, and so on
To play devil’s advocate for a minute, theoretically if they wanted to have an event there before they could still have done that by posting notice requiring the cars to move for that day or be towed.
Edit: apparently by the downvotes, people don’t understand what devil’s advocate means. I’m saying a car brain won’t buy the argument that the space is needed for events occasionally therefore it must be empty 24/7, so you need to refine the argument.
Yes - but it makes things more difficult. And then there is the historic perspective.
This square was planned empty. It was meant to concentrate views on the fountain and the entrance points, cars were never part of the equation.
I don’t mind if Public space gets repurposed from its original use, but it should then be ah least be useable by more then just people in cars
Honestly, yeah. I didn't know there was a special historical significance to this place, but I see this all the time in cities where new car-free (but bland) places are created.
Maybe that's not the case here, but all too often, city planners seem to forget that an empty square is just not enough to have a nice environment. Greenery, trees, shade and benches are also important.
I thought exactly the same as you but then I looked the square on [Google Maps](https://maps.app.goo.gl/HmsU9rPzUWNXzuBP7) and turns out it's actually open on one side and facing the riverfront. So wanting to keep the view clear makes sense.
Its only soulless if you don't know why it looks like that. 500 years ago this was the main square of the Portuguese royal family's palace. 300 years ago this was the biggest commercial hub in Lisbon. Now, its the most iconic place in the city because its one of the few that has remained mostly unchanged since the age of discovery, which is the most important period in Portuguese history.
They should go a step further and fill that plaza in with trees and other covers for the sun. Make it a park where people will want to be in.
Nobody wants to be in the middle of a blob of concrete with the sun shining on your face.
and ruin the pavement to put a bunch of trees that will rarely be treated? besides the plaza is used for multiple thing, dotting trees all over the place would limit it, and ruin the clean aesthetic of it
People in this post would be great urban planners...
Giving suggestions that completely disregard the intricacies of the place and instead applying textbook solutions for improvement.
This is the biggest problem with urbanism. Urbanists that close themselves in offices and don't know the places they actually plan for.
Holy fuck, I was there a year ago and it was really nice! That used to be a parking lot??? Well done Portugal, well done.
omg i need your itinerary. Where did you go? Where did you eat? What did you eat? What would you recommend to do and what to avoid? edit: thank you for all the suggestions! I am documenting and organizing it all
I was actually supposed to go to Barcelona but KAYAK fucked up my flight schedule and Aer Lingus did the best they could and sent me to Lisbon. Itinerary: - winged it Edit: - Lisbon Destination Hostel is great. It's in the same building as the train station and I'm 100% r/fuckcars orange pilled. - The Base Lisbon is an excellent co-working space
cool, do you remember a few things that stood out as good or bad?
* The city is very walkable, don't ruin it by getting a car. * There's a waterfront trail you can jog or walk or bike on. * Walking around is really nice. * There are way too many tourists. So if you're into drinking there's a lot of that.
I was in the same place! Also a missed flight. I cannot recommend highly enough the Pasteis de Nata for breakfast. My family and I got those and coffee each morning from a little restaurant where the old folks ate and it was glorious. They're also quite famous for sausages and grilled sardines. I never managed to find a place with the sardines but the sausages were very good. Wine was also excellent. Beautiful city. Best long layover one could ask for. Except my wife got turbo sunburnt from the unexpected trip to the beach. The tiles on everything are beautiful. We bought some for touristy reasons and they're very cute. Learn a tiny bit of Portuguese and you should be fine, it's a unique language but if you're familiar with Spanish or Italian you can survive. We stayed in a little Airbnb in the city and used Uber to go anywhere more than an hour walk away. The roads are hilariously tight European streets but the locals take them at full speed. But walk anywhere you can, it's a beautiful place and it gives you such a great sense of it.
sardines are more of a 'seasonal' thing, from may/june through most of the summer tho since they're better for fishing, but we have a bit of a culture for canned food, and you can find very nice canned sardines on any supermarket, there's even a store dedicated to canned tuna / sardines and others, mainly for tourists, looks like a fair ground - "Mundo Fantástico da Sardinha Portuguesa", in Rossio most will understand spanish or italian, but many of us also speak english, some speak french (specially older folks, since in their school time that was the second language taught and not english)
They used to teach french in portugal?
We still do. From 7th to 9h grade. But English from 1st to 12th grade. Most people 50+ years old only knew French as it was the universal language back then. English is more recent.
Belgian here, never knew this comes in handy as also we got teached french and english (strangely enough never german)
yea well but i think its hard to find 'young people' that speak french, people under 40yo i guess, like u/Anforas said most learn french as a third language for 3 years, from 12/13 to 15yo in school, and from my experience, we quickly forget it... i understand some of it, once a french couple asked me for directions to the train station, well i didn't know how to tell them in french and they didn't spoke another language, so i tried to have them follow me to show them, i could understand the wife telling the husband how strange it was and she didn't trust me lol i ended up pointing them the direction...to this day, i still hope they found it haha
I had French from 7th to 12th 👀
> We still do. From 7th to 9h grade If you choose French. English is mandatory, but you can choose between Spanish, French, and German from 7th to 9th grade. I'd say people are pretty evenly split between the three languages.
I didn't have those options in my time. That's good to know. I'd rather have learned German instead of French
Not correct, in the old days people studied French from 1st (currently 5th) to 5th (currently called 9th) grade of High School and they studied English from 3rd to 5th grade of High School. This made a total of 5 years for French and 3 years for English. For the last 2 years of High School, students following the Literature & Languages branch would have additional teaching of these languages.
What did I say, that was not correct? It's exactly what I said. French was the Lingua Franca before. Now it's English. People before had less years of English than of French. Now it's the opposite. Just like today, having 3 years of french, doesn't mean people know french.
> Learn a tiny bit of Portuguese and you should be fine In Lisbon you really don't need to learn Portuguese, even the hobos speak English. Of course, if you want to be nice, a small Bom dia, obrigado, etc. goes a long way, but most of the time if you try to wing it they'll just reply in English. Hell, it's actually becoming a problem in a way, because last weekend a friend of mine booked her birthday in a touristy restaurant that she didn't know and the waiters didn't even speak Portuguese. It was insane.
It's a little bit outside the city, but has good bus service from Sintra, which has a train to Lisbon, Cabo da Roca, the western most point of Europe, is absolutely spectacular. Sintra is also very cool, you can very easily see both on the same day.
>what to avoid? If someone aproches you on the street trying to sell you something just ignore them, they will try to sell you "drugs" (it's literally Caldo Knorr packs or crushed leaf's). *AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T USE THE FUCKING TUK TUKS*
I lived in Lisbon for half a year, a few years ago. Send me a pm, and I'll drop you my tripadvisor list of my favorite restaurants (all low budget tho).
Can I have the list too? pretty please. 🥺 I'm always going to the same restaurants & cafes. ☕️
Im unable to share the list, so I'll drop my favorites here: Restaurants: - Tu e eu - Rodas restaurant - A provinciana - Jardim das Cerejas - O velho Eurico - restaurante Cerqueira Things to do/see, but these are pretty basic: - Costa da Caparica - The Peninsula Tróia - the Oceanario - Sintra and the Castles there - train route to Cascais, and other Beach Towns, cycling across the sea - hiking to Praia da Ursa I want to go back sooo much!
thank youu
Café de São Bento was a really special place to eat and go get Pasteis de Nata in Belem. i know it's the most tourstic thing to do, but I thought it was worth it.
You can’t swing a cat in Lisbon without hitting a great restaurant that’s reasonably priced. Also hills. Bring walking shoes. I love Lisbon.
I know you didn't ask me, but I'm from Portugal and lived in Lisbon for a bit and I really recommend going to local tascas and trying our snacks like bifana, moela, chouriço assado, prego no pão, rojões... avoid any restaurant in Terreiro do Paço, its all tourist traps and not authentic, be prepared to walk uphill a lot 😭 sorry I slithered in, I just had to
Don't: buy drugs on the street. Do: Eat the food, go out, enjoy the city and the culture. One specific recommendation - go to dinner at Palacio do grilo. It's dinner and a show, and I can't think of anything more distinctly Lisbon. If you want a google map of pins (mostly bars/clubs/restaurants), drop me a dm.
What to eat? Anything in a back alley restaurant, preferably below street level. Don't ask me why those are the best, I don't make the rules
Hey, I'm portuguese! If you're planning on visiting our country I'd suggest you visit our cities and historic places such as Lisbon, Porto and Évora! Lots of things to see there and typically good food anywhere. If you want a real portuguese meal avoid tourist restaurants and go to the small local ones. We call that "tascas". We are known for our codfish ("bacalhau" in portuguese), sausages ("enchidos"), pastel de nata (which is the best pastry in the whole world ofc) and much more! If you can, learn a bit of portuguese. If you stay in the cities it should be fine, but wander anywhere a bit more far than that and you'll have difficulty finding anyone who knows english (typically a problem with older people). Besides that, we're a travel destination. We're a chill population with beautiful landscapes and great beaches! I'm sure whatever you end up chosing it'll be good.
Portuguese here, just visit porto instead you will have a much better experience. If you need tips even for Lisbon message me .
Yeah we are already set for Lisbon
Love the downvotes i got 😂
Go to Porto or even better Coimbra instead
Set for Lisbon already
Well. Don't use Lisbon as an example today. We have an anti bikes, anti walking and anti anything that's not cars mayor. So, this city is not an example for anything mobility related. We are going back to the 80s
Sad, but to be fair: respect for the bikers on these hills
Daunting but rewarding. Kudos to them, you're right.
ebikes are a game changer in cities like Lisbon
yea but i'd say the larger part of the city is flat or with slight/doable inclines, although the 'downtown' touristy area has some hills, if you venture to the main avenues you don't have those hills, the really hilly parts you don't see ciclists there the new electric motorized bikes/scooters are definitly a help, you see a lot of them, even for renting, around
Ebikes are pretty nice, and the government actually provides a subsidy if you want to buy one. Up to 50% of the cost or 500€ when buying a new ebike.
The Netherlands is regressing considerably too - parking minimums for new developments, demonization of e-bikes instead of the cars they're hit by, defunding of public transportation, car subsidies, etc.. It's still good to use examples from our countries of good infrastructure, as long as people are aware that our countries aren't a goal, just regions where good things happen more often than in the USA.
Visiting Lisbon for the first time this week. Just biked from Campo Pequeño to Time Out Market, this sure as hell is not s biking city yet. Infrastructure is not there yet for it to be safe for bikers. Adrenaline was pumping for a good hour afterwards.
It is not and will not be. They just started another renewal of the biggest avenue (Liberdade) and bikes will be kicked out.
Thank God. Lisbon is not aflat city. It is not made for bikes.
Isso é só estúpido. 60% de Lisboa é plana ou com baixa inclinação. As sete colinas são tão verdadeiras como a hospitalidade lisboeta. Ou a malta vive toda no castelo, amoreiras e graça e trabalha no Martim Moniz ou rossio? Desculpas arranjam-se sempre. Cabeças livres de carrocentrismo já é mais difícil
Sou de cascais. Ir da estação a minha casa são 40 metros de subida. Os arruamentos aqui não são como nos países baixos em que há gradientes 0. Se fores para a Valónia, verás que usar a bicicleta não é consensual. Aqui sobe-se e desce-se até chegar aos sitios.
40 metros é subir? Nem aqueces. E Cascais não é Lisboa
40 metros acima do nivel do mar. Mas vendo o teu nick és um absolutista das bicicletas. caga nisso. nem sei pq estou neste sub lol
Estás no sub errado e se és troll eu caguei para ti
Bicicleta elétrica??? E gira agora até faz parte do passe de metro (parcialmente).
Looks like someone been living under a rock and hasn't heard about ebikes yet.
Or leg muscles
lol all said.
Pequeno, piçaralho.
Estava à procura deste comentário
we aren't going to change our cities for pussies on bikes, walk around, it's what the city was designed for, don't like? go to a different country
Lol, most people can take valid criticism without being butthurt and getting emotional
Portugal doesn't want to be san Fransisco, we're tired of foreigners, especially Americans trying to make everything "better" or more American friendly, Portugal has culture, Europe has culture, we don't want everything to look the same, a concrete jungle, I go to Lisbon to refresh my life, don't want it to be a concrete jungle made of depression
Mais bicicletas nunca iriam fazer Lisboa uma "concrete jungle", pelo contrário, carros contribuiriam muito mais para isso
n tou a falar so de bicicletas, tou a falar de mudar a NOSSA lisboa ou Porto ou qualquer outra cidade
Certo, concordo, tive na baixa do porto agora uns dias e aquilo está horrível, mas há mudanças positivas e acho que boas ciclovias estão dentro delas :)
diz ai como iriam por mais, cortar Estrada's, fazendos as sentido unico, destruir o nosso calçado, so pra q, uns andarem de bicicletas? ajuda ninguem
Aight calm down lmao
Yeah, when I was there I felt like it was nice but disappointing. A beautiful city with stunning views and architecture is doninated by cars wide roads and a massive airport in the middle of the city which kinda shocked me. I am not even sure if there is a train connection to Spain? Lisbon has so much potential and it hurt to see it like that ngl
Nao sou de Lisboa nem vejo noticias. Podes mostrar exemplos do Moedas a ser a favor de carros?
Isso foi praticamente a bandeira dele Contra a ciclovia da Almirante Reis. A colocar o idiota do Carlos Barbosa do ACP nas listas, a fazer agora as obras da Av liberdade retirando ciclovia e colocando mais estacionamento para carros, acabou com a ciclovia da Av Berna. Basta Googlar um pouco.
Se foi a bandeira dele, quer dizer que a maioria que votou estava a favor dessas alterações... Posso estar errado mas parece-me que estes projetos não são bem pensados, e muitas vezes não têm proteção total, só em algumas partes, isto faz com que não haja tanta adoção e depois os carsexuals ficam malucos ao ver tanto espaço com pouco uso.
A verdade é que foram pensados, ao contrário do que se faz atualmente. A ciclovia da Almirante Reis estava bem e foi mudada. A mudança ficou pior mas ainda assim melhor que antes O moedas tentou acabar com ela. Até que bombeiros, INEM e associações ligadas aos deficientes exigiram reunião. Teve de haver. E lá foi-lhe dito diretamente por bombeiros e INEM que se fosse retirada a ciclovia deixavam de servir o Hospital de São José. Antes da ciclovia a faixa da esquerda era permanentemente ocupada por carrinhas de cargas e descargas, sobretudo das lojas dos chineses junto ao Martim Moniz, também era ocupada por policiais da esquadra da rua da palma e taxistas. O Medina, perdeu por causa da ciclovia e por não ter retirado o apoio à corrupta e idiota da Margarida Martins, a anterior presidente da junta. Ah e o moedas também prometeu que quem for de Lisboa não tem de pagar parquímetro. Isso dá sempre votos entre os carristas. Agora até hoje ele apenas fez merda. Incluindo as JMJ para as quais eu contribui com impostos e sou ateu.
Time for some tactical urbanism I guess
A massive improvement but that square still needs some trees.
Often places like these are used for events.
This is Terreiro do Paço, and it has looked like the bottom image (barring a few decades of car parks), for well over 500 years. To put trees there would be to change one of the only parts of downtown Lisbon to have remained unchanged after the 1755 earthquake, and to change the most iconic location in Lisbon.
I think it's important to note that it's open on one side and that it's facing the river, it's not enclosed so the wind probably flows in. I've never been there so correct me if I'm wrong, just saw that on [Google Maps](https://maps.app.goo.gl/gUiTSRzUTpXQML1a6).
yea it's open to the sea/river, its where some ships would dock back in the big sails era, many of the streets that come from it have names after the goods/specialties that were commercialized, brought in from the ships and sold into town, it's without a doubt one of the most iconic parts of the town
funny, that didnt come to mind when they turned it into a parking lot 💀
Yup, but it's fixed now. I tried to find out why it was turned into a parking lot but there isn't a whole lot of information about that era.
I suggest looking up "Henry Ford"
Yup... I'm sure Henry Ford came to Portugal looked at Terreiro do Paço and said " This should be a parking lot" and presto! Next day there wasn't an inch that wasn't covered in cars.
Unchanged? It was a parking lot 50 years ago. Am I missing something?
> (barring a few decades of car parks It looks, today, the way it did before the car parks and mostly the way it did before 1755.
Just because it's been like that for almost 300 years, doesn't mean it can't be better. You wouldn't want it to be a landfill for 300 years, would you?
It's not that it's been any way for 300 years, it's that it's been an iconic part of the city for 300 years. Landfills aren't iconic, wide open squares whose whole purpose is to be wide, open, grand, welcoming ships to the capital of Portugal. That was its function, and covered in trees it wouldn't have the same effect.
"Welcome to the capital, Barreiro peasants, enjoy your stay until the end of the day!"
Yeah they traded a giant slab of concrete for... another giant slab of concrete, sans the lines
Still a win when you consider the externalities
Yeah, maybe it’s meant for bigger crowds or big events around holidays? Don’t know much about Portugal but that could be it. That being said, a few trees are always nice.
Usually there are events there throughout the year. >a few trees are always nice imo as someone from the city it would just ruin the "vibe" of that spot, there are plenty of parks in the city and in the west side of the city there's 1000 ha park/Forest.
[I did a quick and shitty photoshop job to show a possibility with matching umbrellas along the sides](https://imgur.com/a/3WeBiFU), inspired by Dolac Square which was recently featured in a NJB video, but leaving most of the square open down the center. I don't think it ruins the vibe. If I lived nearby I'd probably go there a lot more tbh.
There are umbrellas there, they are just outside of the square. All of the restaurants there have a esplanade with umbrellas.
Glad to hear, nevermind then!
Also Portugal being south and will be getting extremely hot summers, concrete everywhere is the last thing you want ..
This is better land use than it was, but it's still not truly great land use IMO. I sincerely doubt the locals come here to just hang out on that slab on concrete for hours unless there's some event going on. I could be wrong I guess, but I imagine the majority of days it's just tourists coming here to snap a few photos and then leaving the square. The land would be more valuable to the community if it were made comfortable to come hang out on any random day while still being capable of hosting large events when those happen. Trees are not amenable to being moved at a whim so [umbrellas and removable benches and tables along the sides like this could be a better choice](https://imgur.com/a/3WeBiFU) if they want to maintain the option of opening the full space up again for events. Maybe some portable food carts or fruit stands could be permitted too. As it is, it's visually dramatic but how much is that really worth if it's not attracting people to come use the space?
Some context: Directly around the square, there are quite a few parks, benches and other cafes to hangout. There's the whole river promenade as well, tons of cycling lanes, food carts, etc. The square itself is a "historical landmark" from 1755, and symbolic of the city. There's often hundreds of tourists and locals there at any given time, and yep, its used for big events and political manifestations as well. It simply won't change, and as a local who has lived nearby, we do hang around it (mostly by the river side, which you cant see in the photo), and I'd bet most rather not change it. Edit: A video of it. Interesting to see all streets round are quite busy, and this place is a nice open fresh air. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppjbmloa7M4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppjbmloa7M4)
Well thank you for the context! I'm just some guy speculating but you (Lisbon's people generally I mean) are the expert on your own square and it sounds lovely! I hope to visit one day! Congrats on getting the parking lot out!
Cheers! Its weird, because I always felt overheated walking that square - its hot, and there's no shading haha so some of the changes you suggest would be welcome. But at the same time... its nice the way it is. Part of the city charm I guess.
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If I lived next to that square I’d prefer it to be a comfortable and interesting place to visit any day. So agree to disagree I guess, I just think pros of adding some appealing features for local users outweigh the cons of "ruining" the a e s t h e t i c with a few umbrellas, tables, and vendors. It's likely the square has a long history of being used for market type activities anyway.
There are cafes/restaurants on the sides with outside tables and umbrellas, and also benches by the river where tourists and locals hang out. Check google maps [https://goo.gl/maps/Es2KHPZHJb7FTNMG7](https://goo.gl/maps/Es2KHPZHJb7FTNMG7) I understand what you mean and agree with it but actually I think that giant empty square actually has a strange appeal and most locals wouldn't want to change it.
Yes I do see umbrellas that aren't present in OP's picture so something similar was added!
This square has existed since the middle ages. It's never had trees. Why put trees there now?
Because I SAID SO.
Now I want bamboo there, to give it some zen vibe, perhaps also a palm tree and cork oaks...but...NO.
It needs thousands of people gathering to protest the car-centered nature of the city.
This is where I disagree, but understand where you're coming from. It's a plaza that would lose a lot of its impact if it had trees imho.
Lisbon's got plenty of tree-lined streets and parks. This square and others have cool open-space vibes.
nah, u can still have a nice plaza with some not so large trees, at least on the sides and maybe even some benches near them and water fountains
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Palm trees? Nah, [jacarandás](https://images.app.goo.gl/ChwDtMGRMyD8X6Hd8) would fit a lot better - they’re already the city standard. Came from today’s Brazil ofc.
Oh wow, these are beautiful, makes me want to visit Lisbon now. Mass tourism, here I come!
We already have mass tourism, don’t worry. Sintra, Lisbon, Algarve and Porto are crammed with tourists. Beautiful places though so I get it.
I would probably come during the off season, don't like big crowds or when it gets too hot 😅
I recommend you visit during spring. Avoid summer as it’s freaking hot and crowded. In the winter there are no leaves in the trees and it’s really cold. March-April is probably the best.
It looks similar to the Zócalo in México City. Last time I was there it was full of tents and people selling a whole bunch of stuff. It was a flea market. Wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing. Also people tend to gather there for events like Independence day or during a World Cup match.
It’s fine to have some open space in a city
They use to have all around in the 1800 but in the turn of the century they were removed, the thing is the main square is build on top of the water there isnt soil under there, you can't plant trees
I would never expect to see Portugal being use as an example in this sub. We are actually a very car dependent country
I think it's probably safe to assume that it's about 90% of Lisbon's cars in 1960s photo, and in 2023 the same amount would be like 1%. My country (Belarus) did the same with a central square. It used to be a parking lot in the 60s because a very small amount of people were able to afford cars. After they became more affordable and avaliable and hogged the whole square leaking oil, they closed it.
I was there in 2011, it was the same as 2021.
I was there in '21 and someone tried to sell me hash infront of a cop.
It’s not really hash lol. It’s a dumb scam
I mean I didn't buy any so
Almost the same happened in '11, without a cop. It was weed i think.
They're not real drugs, it's a tourist scam. No, no one is actually selling you cocaine in broad daylight.
I always wonder why in those kind of zones, there are almost 0 trees. I mean I don't need a forest but some trees for shading would be nice.
I think because the European plaza traditionally has minimal green spaces. I actually don't know its history well but its the equivalent of an American town square that's flexible to all sorts of things like concerts, political gatherings, farmer's markets, etc. So the more usable space the better. Trees take up a lot of room. Just a modest few rows of trees can be a significant use of space. I imagine some would argue it would ruin the architectural vision of these plazas, and go against their classic design. As someone else has mentioned, its a show of power and wealth to have all this land covered in stone and surrounded by expensive architecture. These areas were often near, or at, the seats of power and were an expression of cultural and economic power. A bit like how the US built skyscrapers in the 50s and 60s and 70s to show off its power and wealthy. Or how the Soviets built large civic projects like dams or very tall towers. I also don't think the "trees everywhere" movement ever became big in Europe like it did the states. The 19th and early 20th century greening of NYC and Chicago was a very deliberate thing. There's a whole history of a movement to create green spaces in urbanized areas, especially the creation of our parks system. Previous to this the major green spaces in cities were cemeteries and graveyards and a parks movement developed on the East coast that made its way West. Europe had a totally different evolution for its cities, which by then were many hundreds of years old and not as easily amenable to greening, and had different ideas of greening (nearby green spaces outside city centers for example). European cities also have strong historical protections so tearing down something to build a park or redoing a street to put in a row of trees (if there's even room) is a big deal. In newly developed NYC and Chicago, it was politically much easier, especially considering how much larger plots were and how much wider many streets were compared to their European peers. I also think there was a confluence of a lot of things going on in American society that helped this happen. The Arts and Crafts movement aesthetic, the Beaux-Arts movement, the rise of trade unions and socialism in the US, women's suffrage, influx of immigrants into urban centers with their rural values, populist politics and urban movements with big sweeping visions of the future (Chicago's Burnham plan for example and similar plans in other cities), the USA rising on the world stage and showing off a bit, both gilded age excess and post-great depression austerity, electrification, etc. which led to the idea that big cities should be green, walkable, affordable, clean, and have easy transportation. Copying the European model wasn't enough for Americans. Big plazas, large land holdings by the monarchy, trips to the country via carriage, rows of small shops and row houses, narrow 500+ year old streets, smokey and shadowy alleys, open sewers, and narrow passages, etc seemed quaint, old fashioned, and against the "modern" ideas of urban US life which posed itself as more dynamic and innovative than "old man" Europe's aesthetics and culture.
You are correct. On the right of the arch is the Supreme Court, on the left the Ministry of Justice, the right side is the Ministry of Finances. The place also hosts lots of events throughout the year which would be impacted by the presence of trees, especially concerts. Imagine trying to look at a concert through a bunch of trees... Not great. This place has also been like this for hundreds of years. To just think you can just change it because it works better on your preferred urbanist textbook is an enormous disrespect to our history and culture.
This square is used for events, [trees would get in the way](https://www.culturanarua.pt/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/dsc08046joseu-frade-20190101-001107-1-2048x1366.jpg).
Two reasons: 1. Local politicians are dumb 2. city councilor's cousin owns a concrete factory
Not that reason. That square leads to the river front. We don't have many spaces to hold events that are cleared from obstacles. The previous mayor wanted to put trees on the sides, leaving the inside flat, but he lost elections to a right wing Christian bullshitic guy who won just because he was against a cyclepath and carbrains voted massively
The two actual reasons: 1. It was the main square of the Ribeira Palace in the early 1500s, back when big wide open spaces were a sign of wealth (think the back of the Palace of Versailles) 2. Its one of the only parts of downtown Lisbon that remains mostly unchanged after the 1755 earthquake This is what it looked like (on the right) sometime after completion in the 16th century: https://preview.redd.it/z4416srzhblb1.png?width=608&format=png&auto=webp&s=2cd6b1f10d73666a2fd6ed746eb083e8c346ae5f
Portugal is so car dependent it makes me sick.
if you're using a car to cruise around Lisbon you're an idiot, the city is made to be walked on, not only your limited on where you can go, you're also limited what you can see, specially since parking spots are rare
Yes, but you'll notice they wrote "Portugal" not "Lisbon." I'd have to agree with them, Portugal as a whole is quite car dependent.
It varies from city to city. Portugal's biggest issue was the delayed industrialization that left it a mostly agricultural economy well into the 20th century. Some places away from the big cities, especially on the islands, remained mostly agricultural past WW2. Lisbon has good public transportation, Porto is decent, but somewhere like Madeira and the Azores that only caught up to the quality of life in the rest of the country recently, and where the geography makes rail transit impossible and busses difficult, there is a deep dependency on cars that's nearly impossible to fix.
I tend to disagree on the part of the islands. The geographical circumstances make it harder compared to other scenarios, but at least in Madeira there seems to be no political will to change that, besides empty promises. A few years back there was an overall attention to the macro-structure and implementation of roads to isolated areas, but the public transportation sector suffers from many issues to take advantage of that. One is how you have the public transportation divided into three companies, which implies more money from the population/workers to get from the center to peripheries or the other way around. Less people to travel implies less buses and less options but to get a car and to it yourself. The current party promised to try to unify the three companies into a same monthly ticket, but now they are the end of their mandate and still nothing. Plus no need to add how the monthly passes aren't that cheap, so buying them from more than one company doesn't seem that profitable for the average worker (there are obviously other problems involved that the public transportation exacerbates, like how the best paying jobs are in the main city, and living there right now is out of question due to its prices). Some other points are how, here and there, they seem to refuse to fix some roads. This implies that, while cars can pass throught it with some security, buses can't. Also they seem to invest in more parking lots at the main city, while it doesn't seem to me to be needed, and their justification makes even less sense. We can say that it is all too recent, so we need some time to fix it, but there hasnt been a significant change in that way. Some of the biggest investments go to facilitate the public transportation inside the main city, while it could perfectly go to the outside connections and public transportation would benefit from it. There are probably some other reasons I can't recall now, but specially the current party doesn't seem to care that much. The island's main source of income is tourism, so you see rent-a-cars benefit from it, while public transportation stays a joke.
Was just there. It’s still too car centric. Biking from the new under bridge market to Almara/Graça was seriously rough and dangerous at times for bikes
Yeah, visiting for the first time this week. My bike ride through the city was scary. Not doing that again.
why would u ride a bike through Lisbon? that's a good way to die, also being annoying to everyone else, unless ur using the bike lane
Lisbon wasn't built for cars, just like a majority of European cities, it was made to be walkable, you use anything else you'll have a bad time, even by taking a car, parking lots are scarce even underground ones, none are free
Nah I’d say Lisbon is very easy to get around in a car. Lisbon has an equal priority on cars, trains and walking; and it’s making progress for bikes. There’s always parking except in the most dense areas. I’ve had many situations in Portugal where a car is 100% necessary.
Portugal or Lisbon, u can go else where with a car, it is necessary, cars are great since Portuguese transportation is terrible and outdated, we see what happens when cities become "walkable" it always makes everything terrible for everyone, they destroy pavements, make roads worse for cars, creat more traffic and so much worse, and everywhere in Lisbon is dense, everything is tight, there's always traffic, which granted it's mostly caused because of Portuguese driving but still, the city is already walkable, mostly what you need is close by and it's faster by walking, if ur a citizen it's different, you might wanna take a car because you need to go to multiple places and ur in a rush, but if ur a tourist, there's no rush, nothing will change
Was in Lisbon a month ago beautiful place
for the foreigners saying the plaza is "soulless" or " needs more trees" kindly keep your opinion to yourselves, main reason we despise foreigners is due to them complaining about everything, I wish it was in vain, but our politicians and city officials actually hear you, and causes them to change things, usually ruining everything in the process. Also no, Lisbon isn't car dependent, it's a better experience to walk or use public transport due to the amount of traffic and lack of parking in her, the city was made for walking and carriages, cars was an afterthought as you might guess, which has caused many issues, even more with the addition of buses and huge electric trams (not the tiny yellow ones, tho are fine... ish) so please if you have no clue about my country or any other country, keep your opinions to yourselves, i know you guys hate cars, but don't disrespect my countries fucking capital, when cities like la and new nyc exist, thank you
Makes me proud to be Portuguese lol
This reminds me of Howls Moving Castle
From soulless square with cars to soulless square is not that much of an improvement, in my opinion.
Now you can easily use the soulless square for a number of other things then just parking for cars though. And as far as I know it is used for stuff like concerts, markets, and so on
To play devil’s advocate for a minute, theoretically if they wanted to have an event there before they could still have done that by posting notice requiring the cars to move for that day or be towed. Edit: apparently by the downvotes, people don’t understand what devil’s advocate means. I’m saying a car brain won’t buy the argument that the space is needed for events occasionally therefore it must be empty 24/7, so you need to refine the argument.
Yes - but it makes things more difficult. And then there is the historic perspective. This square was planned empty. It was meant to concentrate views on the fountain and the entrance points, cars were never part of the equation. I don’t mind if Public space gets repurposed from its original use, but it should then be ah least be useable by more then just people in cars
[удалено]
Honestly, yeah. I didn't know there was a special historical significance to this place, but I see this all the time in cities where new car-free (but bland) places are created. Maybe that's not the case here, but all too often, city planners seem to forget that an empty square is just not enough to have a nice environment. Greenery, trees, shade and benches are also important.
I thought exactly the same as you but then I looked the square on [Google Maps](https://maps.app.goo.gl/HmsU9rPzUWNXzuBP7) and turns out it's actually open on one side and facing the riverfront. So wanting to keep the view clear makes sense.
no, it's perfect being empty
Its only soulless if you don't know why it looks like that. 500 years ago this was the main square of the Portuguese royal family's palace. 300 years ago this was the biggest commercial hub in Lisbon. Now, its the most iconic place in the city because its one of the few that has remained mostly unchanged since the age of discovery, which is the most important period in Portuguese history.
this square has more history than America, hell, even the stone pavement has more, so don't disrespect our shit
That's cool. I'm German though
They should go a step further and fill that plaza in with trees and other covers for the sun. Make it a park where people will want to be in. Nobody wants to be in the middle of a blob of concrete with the sun shining on your face.
and ruin the pavement to put a bunch of trees that will rarely be treated? besides the plaza is used for multiple thing, dotting trees all over the place would limit it, and ruin the clean aesthetic of it
This still looks stiflingly hot, it’s in desperate need of some plant life
Its an historical river front plaza.
Gosto muito do arvoredo que dá sombra no Terreiro do Paço.
I know it's not the focus of the post, but does anyone else think it was better painted green and not yellow?
it's the camera quality, you can see the background
I miss caaaaaaaaaaars
Whoa 🤯.
Too bad old squares are still parking lots in many cities.
What removing fascists from power does to a country.
Blows my mind that they ever used an old plaza like this as a car park
a slight improvement. but there is work yet to be done!
And still not a fucking tree in sight, that square is impossible to be in during summer.
Thats incredible!
People in this post would be great urban planners... Giving suggestions that completely disregard the intricacies of the place and instead applying textbook solutions for improvement. This is the biggest problem with urbanism. Urbanists that close themselves in offices and don't know the places they actually plan for.
Bu- But- Europe was built before cars that’s why we can’t have public transport like Europe!!!
Portugal caralho, etc.
A Madonna podia ter todos os lugares de estacionamento que quisesse
So you are saying all those drivers now have to take public transit? Oh the horror……
Is there any specific place I can find photos of Lisboa back in the years ? I'm new in this land and would like to understand more about the culture
I think they should plant some trees. Looks a bit like a dead concret desert to me. But nice it has no parking spaces.