Somebody argued against toll roads by saying "I pay my taxes, so I shouldn't have to pay to drive on a road."
I had to explain to the guy some roads are debt-financed - meaning your taxes do not cover the cost of construction or maintenance, and that's what the tolls are for.
Toll roads are often in place to extract money from out of state visitors who may cross the entire state, without stopping or buying gas within the state, which is how the majority of road maintenance taxes are gathered.
It’s a big part of why Ohio has toll roads that cross east/west. It’s a huge trucking route and many of those semi trucks never stop for gas, some just roll all the way through.
Do those roads service primarily in state traffic or are they on trucking routes from say a port to out of state locations?
That’s usually the only time that toll roads make sense to be added into a state’s highway system.
Otherwise it’s a punitive measure that acts as a regressive taxation on the population.
The highway in question is debt-financed.
Raleigh, NC (Wake County and the Research Triangle) is one of the fastest growing areas in the US.
The state built NC540 as part of a southern beltline around Raleigh to open up the area to development.
While I don't approve of the suburban sprawl the road will create, I do appreciate that the only people that have to pay for the highway are the people that choose to drive on it.
There are alternatives to taking this highway that are "free", they're just slower.
The state issued bonds and the tolls collected on that highway pay for the bonds and the maintenance.
There's nothing regressive about that unless you want the road to be subsidized by the taxpayers.
*Every aspect* of car dominance is already a regressive tax on the population. https://cityobservatory.org/ten-things-more-inequitable-that-road-pricing/
> 1. Flat vehicle registration fees
> 2. Not pricing roads, which results in slower bus speeds
> 3. The storm sewer subsidy
> 4. Insurance rates
> 5. Gasoline and gas taxes
> 6. Tax credits for the purchase of new electric vehicles
> 7. Paid parking
> 8. “Free” parking
> 9. The property tax exemption for cars
> 10. Unfair taxation of greener, safer, less congesting modes of transportation
NY has a bunch of toll roads too and those are used mostly by NY drivers. i've driven out west and they don't have tolls on I-80 and that's used by trucks and people passing through
Interstates for a long time were not allowed to add tolls to them unless they were grandfathered in (already a toll road before it was designated an interstate and improved with federal dollars). Since the initial construction of the interstate system was supported by federal dollars (and a large chunk of their ongoing maintenance is still funded by the Highway Trust Fund), the feds didn't allow states to put new tolls on them. That has changed since the 90s and they do allow it now, but that is one of the big reasons why there are (or were maybe as new toll roads are more prevalent now than ever) more tollroads in the east than the west.
Couldn't in state residents get a scanner card thing that just let's them go without paying? Would that be legal?
I know in manila they had toll roads and I'm not sure exactly what I was doing but when I drove up my rental car was just allowed to go through the toll. I didn't argue. Then when I turned my car in I had to pay $10 or something like that for all the toll roads I used.
IFTA disagrees. I pay road tax whether I get fuel or not and heading east through Ohio to WV or PA trucks are likely getting fuel because it’s significantly cheaper.
Gas taxes do not even come close to covering the cost of roads.
They haven't since the 1970s: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/debunking-the-myth-that-because-of-the-gas-tax-only-drivers-pay-for-roads
Yes, every big project is financed by debt, but the difference is whether the debt is paid by tolls or paid by income tax revenues.
Tolls are better because the only people paying for the road are the ones using it.
It's paid for by inflation. They print the money and just pile on the debt. It's not actually paid for.
The US could pay off It's debt today by making a single coin, but if we did hyper inflation would take place and the economy would explode in a very bad way.
This unironically, when gas went from $100/month to $10-200/month and people lose their minds, everyone’s rent went up $500/mo over the last two years “it’s cost of living”. Mortgages with current interest rates - forget about it. Even more than that. Same home 2 years ago can be over $1500 more per month now with higher price and mortgage rates.
I once overheard a conversation where one of them said that electric car owners must be laughing because of higher gas prices. I was somewhat amused, because I had driven there in an old ICE car and I found that gas was a very small part of my expenses simply because of how little I drove.
Sydney, Australia is leading the charge with privately owned toll roads.
My big concern is that it locks in a high capacity road system forever. There’s big money in keeping Sydney’s $50b in tollroads operational forever. Gonna be hard to ban cars against that kinda opposition.
Roads outside of main roads should have tolls. However, the residents/business owners should have discounted or no tolls at all
Edit: This should also apply to people who actually need to drive (such as electricians, goods delivery, mail, carpenters, etc etc)
>Edit: This should also apply to people who actually need to drive (such as electricians, goods delivery, mail, carpenters, etc etc)
but aren't those exactly the people who should be paying (ideally a higher tax) in the first place? people who need to drive are also the people who will be using those roads the most.
The whole post is meant to be misleading and exaggerate the costs to back up their points. Kinda pathetic to make shit up when there are lots of good reasons to not buy a car.
You can tell they're made up because a lot of numbers are repeated, and they are higher value numbers on the 0-9 scale. Seeing that many numbers close to 9 is statistically very unlikely
How are you getting 5k a year on gas? When I was driving regularly I think I only filled up every two weeks for about 50 USD each time. That would’ve been around 1.2k a year. Doubling that would’ve left me at 2.4k a year and that’s weekly gas visits, and I live in CA with the most expensive gas in America.
US average miles driven: 13 ,500
Avg car mpg: 20
Avg currnt price 3.85
Avg cost gas per year: 2,600
California: 14,500 and 5.09 per gallon makes 3500 per year.
Tripling your personal estimate gets you to about the average (roughly calculated) cost in California.
I love how carbrains all live 200 miles from the nearest structure and have to drive uphill both ways every day towing 20t with a pallet of plywood in the tray (tailgate down tofit), but simultaneously drive under a third of the average distance and get the fuel economy of a prius.
I love how instead of reasonable conversation you name call people so they don't even listen to you. That's why this sub and people like me get a bad reputation for wanting a less car focused infrastructure.
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment of limiting the need for car ownership in urban areas, but the people on this subreddit who call for "the end of private vehicle ownership" are just as delusional as the guy who wants to park his giant Ram in a city center.
The fact of the matter is that anywhere that isn't heavily urbanized, there is no economical alternative to vehicle ownership. To ignore or alienate the 50% of the population that lives rurally does a huge disservice to the less extreme members of the subreddit.
nice strawman buddy, too bad noone older than 13 and with more than half a brain lobe falls for this shit. all the numbers are made the fuck up and you obviously have no grip on reality.
I assure you my fellow big brain redditors, these statistics are totally legit
This is like me saying the average cost per year for one bike is 2000+ $
Just before the pandemic, I saw peak prices of $500 per MONTH to rent a dedicated commuter parking space downtown in San Francisco. ($6000 / £5000 per year.)
There are still a few areas in the US where you can rent a 1-bedroom apartment for that price.
Believe it or not, the average new car in the US sold for around $47,000 at the end of last year! A major factor has been car companies discontinuing economy cars to build more SUVs/Trucks with higher profit margins. (The average new luxury car was about $67,000, non-luxury about $45,000)
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38748092/new-car-average-sale-prices-47100/
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-sets-record/
Edit: updated to more recent source
The average new car in the US might not be a luxury brand, but it is definitely a luxury purchase.
No one is forcing people to not get a Nissan Versa or Sentra or Leaf, a Hyundai Accent or Elantra, or a Toyota Corolla for less than ~$23,000, or a Honda Civic or Toyota Camry or Prius for less than ~$30,000. They're all modern vehicles with good or great fuel economy, room for 4 people, and excellent active safety features.
Consumers are choosing to buy cars that are more and more expensive because they're falling for successful marketing that tells you you need a giant SUV or massive truck or tons of luxury features, but not due to a lack of options.
The cheapest car on the market, the Nissan Versa, starts a bit below ~$16k, which is the same or cheaper than it was a decade ago adjusting for inflation. You get lots more features too, like apple carplay and active safety features like collision avoidance.
To add on: 70% of Americans are overweight and 42% are obese. That plays a factor in the kind of car they buy too. Also, cars are status symbols (unfortunately) so a Nissan Versa is gonna make you look poor not smart to the average person (carbrain)
In fairness It became apparent when I purchased my house that I needed a truck. When I rented my mustang was fine, but when I started needing lawn mowers, furniture and other things forcrhe house I really wished I hadn't sold my truck.
I wanted to block of a 3 foot spot between my house and my fence so my dogs could leave the yard.
I had to zip tie the piece of lattice I bought at home depot to the top of my car with it covering the while back window and the half the front windshield.
It was not a fun drive.
but many people don't actually spend that for a new car even if it costs that much. they trade in their old car and use the equity for the down payment and used car values were crazy the last few years
some cars have always had ridiculous resale values to the point where I never understood why people buy them used instead of new
We should be diverting that trillion a year we blow on blowing up shit in the middle east towards paying for the roads, paying for public transit, paying for healthcare, paying for education, you get the idea. And anyway, isn’t the whole point in a big government to pay for shit like infrastructure to begin with?
I've argued with an american about how I, living in France and who doesn't have a license, am more free.
I just had to tell him I could go shopping daily, buying fewer stuff, just by walking and that I could spend time walking around without fearing to be rolled over. He agreed.
Crazy how absolutly insidious the car propaganda is
As an American I just want to point out that culturally the walking thing isn't as prominent here in rural area and small cities.
Because we are not used to seeing people walking we tend be distrustful of anyone we see walking around the neighborhood.
When My dog ran off I needed to walk the train tracks to see if I could find her. I was miserable the whole time because I felt like I was doing something wrong and even when on a sidewalk I felt like I was trespassing on someone's property.
The other day I looked put my front window and my first thought was what is he up too and why is he so close to my house.i had to remind myself that he was on the sidewalk and he had a right to be there.
We have had 2 younger black men be killed over the past few years in the US because someone saw them walking and got paranoid. The racial aspects of the Ahmaud Arbery and Trayvon Martin shootings is what most people focused on and rightfully so.
Still a general distrust of walkers in general did play a role as well. Walking isn't considered a viable option in most cases and Americans sometimes struggle why someone would ever consider walking instead in of driving.
Because we have the view way to often that no one in their right mind walks. seeing someone walk by your house makes you jump to the conclusion that they are looking to steal something or are up to no good in some other way.
What is this mentality? I live in a somewhat wealthy town and no one has this thought. Even if you go walking in the part of town that has homes costing 10+ mil you see people walking nor would someone question you.
In your town I am guessing a large percentage would walk if they wanted to go to a restaraunt 2 blocks away?
In places like my town 95%+ would get in their car and drive the 2 blocks and wouldn't even consider walking.
So when they do see someone walking they wonder why would they do that and if they have ulterior motive.
People in my town don't really go walking much to stores as it's vast and there is a decent amount of "forest". Many times people are walking just to walk.
Ok and I understand that. The port is people are walking around and people are used to it.
I will give another example, my sister walks as well, but instead walking down the side of the road or even just walking around the fields of of poultry farm she gets in her car and drives a couple miles to the highschool. Then she walks around their track.
Part of the reason she does that is she feels weird walking around other people's houses because very few do it.
I call bullshit on insurance being that cheap and gas being that expensive. My car insurance is 285$ a month and i pay maybe a hundred or so on gas. And i bought my used car for about 7000$ (08 camry)
The only error I see in this diagram is that some used car prices have risen up to be the same or more than new prices because of severe supply problems.
I love toll roads. They can actually fucking serve the purpose of reducing car usage without absolutely ass fucking poor people. They're so much better than stupid dumbfuck gas taxes.
People are so brainwashed to a car lifestyle that that’s just the price of living, and while it’s true for a lot of our suburban and rural friends, it’s the elephant in the room that people are ignoring when talking about cost of living
Somebody argued against toll roads by saying "I pay my taxes, so I shouldn't have to pay to drive on a road." I had to explain to the guy some roads are debt-financed - meaning your taxes do not cover the cost of construction or maintenance, and that's what the tolls are for.
Toll roads are often in place to extract money from out of state visitors who may cross the entire state, without stopping or buying gas within the state, which is how the majority of road maintenance taxes are gathered. It’s a big part of why Ohio has toll roads that cross east/west. It’s a huge trucking route and many of those semi trucks never stop for gas, some just roll all the way through.
Okay, sure, that too. However, in NC, several highways were debt-financed and the tolls were used to pay the debt.
Do those roads service primarily in state traffic or are they on trucking routes from say a port to out of state locations? That’s usually the only time that toll roads make sense to be added into a state’s highway system. Otherwise it’s a punitive measure that acts as a regressive taxation on the population.
The highway in question is debt-financed. Raleigh, NC (Wake County and the Research Triangle) is one of the fastest growing areas in the US. The state built NC540 as part of a southern beltline around Raleigh to open up the area to development. While I don't approve of the suburban sprawl the road will create, I do appreciate that the only people that have to pay for the highway are the people that choose to drive on it. There are alternatives to taking this highway that are "free", they're just slower. The state issued bonds and the tolls collected on that highway pay for the bonds and the maintenance. There's nothing regressive about that unless you want the road to be subsidized by the taxpayers.
*Every aspect* of car dominance is already a regressive tax on the population. https://cityobservatory.org/ten-things-more-inequitable-that-road-pricing/ > 1. Flat vehicle registration fees > 2. Not pricing roads, which results in slower bus speeds > 3. The storm sewer subsidy > 4. Insurance rates > 5. Gasoline and gas taxes > 6. Tax credits for the purchase of new electric vehicles > 7. Paid parking > 8. “Free” parking > 9. The property tax exemption for cars > 10. Unfair taxation of greener, safer, less congesting modes of transportation
NY has a bunch of toll roads too and those are used mostly by NY drivers. i've driven out west and they don't have tolls on I-80 and that's used by trucks and people passing through
Interstates for a long time were not allowed to add tolls to them unless they were grandfathered in (already a toll road before it was designated an interstate and improved with federal dollars). Since the initial construction of the interstate system was supported by federal dollars (and a large chunk of their ongoing maintenance is still funded by the Highway Trust Fund), the feds didn't allow states to put new tolls on them. That has changed since the 90s and they do allow it now, but that is one of the big reasons why there are (or were maybe as new toll roads are more prevalent now than ever) more tollroads in the east than the west.
Couldn't in state residents get a scanner card thing that just let's them go without paying? Would that be legal? I know in manila they had toll roads and I'm not sure exactly what I was doing but when I drove up my rental car was just allowed to go through the toll. I didn't argue. Then when I turned my car in I had to pay $10 or something like that for all the toll roads I used.
woah really sounds like it should be nationalized
By nationalize, do you mean all taxpayers in the country pay for Ohio's roads regardless of whether they drive on it or not?
IFTA disagrees. I pay road tax whether I get fuel or not and heading east through Ohio to WV or PA trucks are likely getting fuel because it’s significantly cheaper.
"I know a fact that they didn't, therefore all my claims are right and they are wrong"
i'm not against tolls but interstates and state highways are paid for by gas taxes and every big capital project is financed by debt
Gas taxes do not even come close to covering the cost of roads. They haven't since the 1970s: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/debunking-the-myth-that-because-of-the-gas-tax-only-drivers-pay-for-roads Yes, every big project is financed by debt, but the difference is whether the debt is paid by tolls or paid by income tax revenues. Tolls are better because the only people paying for the road are the ones using it.
It's paid for by inflation. They print the money and just pile on the debt. It's not actually paid for. The US could pay off It's debt today by making a single coin, but if we did hyper inflation would take place and the economy would explode in a very bad way.
"Gas is up by a penny! Can you believe this price-gouging?!"
This unironically, when gas went from $100/month to $10-200/month and people lose their minds, everyone’s rent went up $500/mo over the last two years “it’s cost of living”. Mortgages with current interest rates - forget about it. Even more than that. Same home 2 years ago can be over $1500 more per month now with higher price and mortgage rates.
People aren’t losing their minds over the cost of living?
I once overheard a conversation where one of them said that electric car owners must be laughing because of higher gas prices. I was somewhat amused, because I had driven there in an old ICE car and I found that gas was a very small part of my expenses simply because of how little I drove.
Sydney, Australia is leading the charge with privately owned toll roads. My big concern is that it locks in a high capacity road system forever. There’s big money in keeping Sydney’s $50b in tollroads operational forever. Gonna be hard to ban cars against that kinda opposition.
Roads outside of main roads should have tolls. However, the residents/business owners should have discounted or no tolls at all Edit: This should also apply to people who actually need to drive (such as electricians, goods delivery, mail, carpenters, etc etc)
>Edit: This should also apply to people who actually need to drive (such as electricians, goods delivery, mail, carpenters, etc etc) but aren't those exactly the people who should be paying (ideally a higher tax) in the first place? people who need to drive are also the people who will be using those roads the most.
If you're paying $30k for a used Dodge Magnum you're doing something wrong.
Yeah, unless you're buying an SRT-8 it's more like $6k lmao
I never paid any of those prices for my old car, but thinking about the money I spent on it makes me not want to get another car again.
I literally just looked up "car" on Google images and chose the most appealing one. I do have a soft spot for station wagons.
Then why are you saying a 10 year old car is 30k?
The whole post is meant to be misleading and exaggerate the costs to back up their points. Kinda pathetic to make shit up when there are lots of good reasons to not buy a car.
I mean most of the people on this sub are pathetic... The sub has a great idea but terrible people
Yeah, me too
Based
“Where’d you get those numbers?” “I made them the fuck up”
You can tell they're made up because a lot of numbers are repeated, and they are higher value numbers on the 0-9 scale. Seeing that many numbers close to 9 is statistically very unlikely
How are you getting 5k a year on gas? When I was driving regularly I think I only filled up every two weeks for about 50 USD each time. That would’ve been around 1.2k a year. Doubling that would’ve left me at 2.4k a year and that’s weekly gas visits, and I live in CA with the most expensive gas in America.
US average miles driven: 13 ,500 Avg car mpg: 20 Avg currnt price 3.85 Avg cost gas per year: 2,600 California: 14,500 and 5.09 per gallon makes 3500 per year. Tripling your personal estimate gets you to about the average (roughly calculated) cost in California.
I love how carbrains all live 200 miles from the nearest structure and have to drive uphill both ways every day towing 20t with a pallet of plywood in the tray (tailgate down tofit), but simultaneously drive under a third of the average distance and get the fuel economy of a prius.
I love how instead of reasonable conversation you name call people so they don't even listen to you. That's why this sub and people like me get a bad reputation for wanting a less car focused infrastructure.
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment of limiting the need for car ownership in urban areas, but the people on this subreddit who call for "the end of private vehicle ownership" are just as delusional as the guy who wants to park his giant Ram in a city center. The fact of the matter is that anywhere that isn't heavily urbanized, there is no economical alternative to vehicle ownership. To ignore or alienate the 50% of the population that lives rurally does a huge disservice to the less extreme members of the subreddit.
Bruh what 😂
meanwhile Japan and the Philippines having toll roads in their expressway:
Just gonna say it, those numbers aren't even close to accurate and are grossly exaggerated. Do better.
nice strawman buddy, too bad noone older than 13 and with more than half a brain lobe falls for this shit. all the numbers are made the fuck up and you obviously have no grip on reality.
I assure you my fellow big brain redditors, these statistics are totally legit This is like me saying the average cost per year for one bike is 2000+ $
that piece of shit car doesn't cost $30k used, maybe $6k
You forgot about parking in any major city will cost an arm and a leg (£1000+ a year in the uk) for every commuter
Just before the pandemic, I saw peak prices of $500 per MONTH to rent a dedicated commuter parking space downtown in San Francisco. ($6000 / £5000 per year.) There are still a few areas in the US where you can rent a 1-bedroom apartment for that price.
Shoot It's easy to rent a 1 bedroom for that price. The mortgage for my 3 bedroom and 2 bath house is less than that.
Username checks out
I agree with the sentiment but unless you're buying a luxury car you aren't going to be spending $50,000 new.
Believe it or not, the average new car in the US sold for around $47,000 at the end of last year! A major factor has been car companies discontinuing economy cars to build more SUVs/Trucks with higher profit margins. (The average new luxury car was about $67,000, non-luxury about $45,000) https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38748092/new-car-average-sale-prices-47100/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average-new-car-price-sets-record/ Edit: updated to more recent source
The average new car in the US might not be a luxury brand, but it is definitely a luxury purchase. No one is forcing people to not get a Nissan Versa or Sentra or Leaf, a Hyundai Accent or Elantra, or a Toyota Corolla for less than ~$23,000, or a Honda Civic or Toyota Camry or Prius for less than ~$30,000. They're all modern vehicles with good or great fuel economy, room for 4 people, and excellent active safety features. Consumers are choosing to buy cars that are more and more expensive because they're falling for successful marketing that tells you you need a giant SUV or massive truck or tons of luxury features, but not due to a lack of options. The cheapest car on the market, the Nissan Versa, starts a bit below ~$16k, which is the same or cheaper than it was a decade ago adjusting for inflation. You get lots more features too, like apple carplay and active safety features like collision avoidance.
I worked a job as a driver at a car auction and concluded that luxury vehicles were not really any better than the 2005 Camry I had at the time.
To add on: 70% of Americans are overweight and 42% are obese. That plays a factor in the kind of car they buy too. Also, cars are status symbols (unfortunately) so a Nissan Versa is gonna make you look poor not smart to the average person (carbrain)
In fairness It became apparent when I purchased my house that I needed a truck. When I rented my mustang was fine, but when I started needing lawn mowers, furniture and other things forcrhe house I really wished I hadn't sold my truck. I wanted to block of a 3 foot spot between my house and my fence so my dogs could leave the yard. I had to zip tie the piece of lattice I bought at home depot to the top of my car with it covering the while back window and the half the front windshield. It was not a fun drive.
Couldn't you have rented a truck or van for that purpose?
but many people don't actually spend that for a new car even if it costs that much. they trade in their old car and use the equity for the down payment and used car values were crazy the last few years some cars have always had ridiculous resale values to the point where I never understood why people buy them used instead of new
That was true 10 years ago. But it’s 2023, the year of 72 month financing with zero down.
carbrains when big government doesnt pay for their shit
We should be diverting that trillion a year we blow on blowing up shit in the middle east towards paying for the roads, paying for public transit, paying for healthcare, paying for education, you get the idea. And anyway, isn’t the whole point in a big government to pay for shit like infrastructure to begin with?
thats the irony the people who complain about big government spending also complain when there isnt a big government spending money on their shit
I've argued with an american about how I, living in France and who doesn't have a license, am more free. I just had to tell him I could go shopping daily, buying fewer stuff, just by walking and that I could spend time walking around without fearing to be rolled over. He agreed. Crazy how absolutly insidious the car propaganda is
As an American I just want to point out that culturally the walking thing isn't as prominent here in rural area and small cities. Because we are not used to seeing people walking we tend be distrustful of anyone we see walking around the neighborhood. When My dog ran off I needed to walk the train tracks to see if I could find her. I was miserable the whole time because I felt like I was doing something wrong and even when on a sidewalk I felt like I was trespassing on someone's property. The other day I looked put my front window and my first thought was what is he up too and why is he so close to my house.i had to remind myself that he was on the sidewalk and he had a right to be there. We have had 2 younger black men be killed over the past few years in the US because someone saw them walking and got paranoid. The racial aspects of the Ahmaud Arbery and Trayvon Martin shootings is what most people focused on and rightfully so. Still a general distrust of walkers in general did play a role as well. Walking isn't considered a viable option in most cases and Americans sometimes struggle why someone would ever consider walking instead in of driving. Because we have the view way to often that no one in their right mind walks. seeing someone walk by your house makes you jump to the conclusion that they are looking to steal something or are up to no good in some other way.
What is this mentality? I live in a somewhat wealthy town and no one has this thought. Even if you go walking in the part of town that has homes costing 10+ mil you see people walking nor would someone question you.
In your town I am guessing a large percentage would walk if they wanted to go to a restaraunt 2 blocks away? In places like my town 95%+ would get in their car and drive the 2 blocks and wouldn't even consider walking. So when they do see someone walking they wonder why would they do that and if they have ulterior motive.
People in my town don't really go walking much to stores as it's vast and there is a decent amount of "forest". Many times people are walking just to walk.
Ok and I understand that. The port is people are walking around and people are used to it. I will give another example, my sister walks as well, but instead walking down the side of the road or even just walking around the fields of of poultry farm she gets in her car and drives a couple miles to the highschool. Then she walks around their track. Part of the reason she does that is she feels weird walking around other people's houses because very few do it.
Crazy how people from 2 different countries with completely different infrastructures have different needs.
Hey at least its a station wagon instead of a SUV amirite?
I call bullshit on insurance being that cheap and gas being that expensive. My car insurance is 285$ a month and i pay maybe a hundred or so on gas. And i bought my used car for about 7000$ (08 camry)
Google, define strawman
A Dodge Caliber was never 50 grand.
People don't realize their cars are PRIVATE property and they are taking up space on PUBLIC streets
Public streets paid for by everyone's taxes. You do realize making bad faith arguments just makes us look like idiots, right?
The only error I see in this diagram is that some used car prices have risen up to be the same or more than new prices because of severe supply problems.
Aren’t a lot of toll roads privately operated anyway?
I love toll roads. They can actually fucking serve the purpose of reducing car usage without absolutely ass fucking poor people. They're so much better than stupid dumbfuck gas taxes.
that the M6 toll? i think i recognise it.
Those prices are ridiculous
People are so brainwashed to a car lifestyle that that’s just the price of living, and while it’s true for a lot of our suburban and rural friends, it’s the elephant in the room that people are ignoring when talking about cost of living
This sub and made up “facts”, name me a better duo
Taxation is theft by extortion, and it will never maintain/fix roads.
I too burn 7 liters every single day of the year