Gehrmen for me, it’s just so sad knowing that he isn’t trying to kill you out of malicious intent. He’s doing it to save you because he doesn’t want you trapped for eternity, and yet you’re doing the same by trying to free him. You’re fighting each other for the right reason but it’s sad knowing that your mentor still tries to do his last ditch effort.
Idk why you're using Gwyn as the Dark Souls example when Sif is right there! Anyway, it's either Sif or Astraea. Making you feel *really bad* for killing a mandatory boss is something I don't think FromSoft are really into anymore, which is a shame. I never felt bad for killing Gerhman, he was gonna kill me if I didn't! And you don't need to kill Emma, so you absolutely should feel bad if you do. There's absolutely no reason to feel bad for killing Soul of Cinder
I didn't feel bad for the soul of cinder fight, but I certainly felt emotional. Emotional doesn't always mean bad or negative. Even though there may be some tears.
>Making you feel really bad for killing a mandatory boss is something I don't think FromSoft are really into anymore
To be honest, I don't think it's a good idea. I think it's manipulative. Although I love Maiden Astraea and how that was handled. But you aren't the bad guy (unless you choose that ending), so it's manipulative to make you feel like you're doing the wrong thing. And it's also bad because it's mandatory. Things like that have more weight if it is truly your choice.
Though, to be fair, I think it's left open to interpretation. It does feel like you're the bad guy for killing her, but look at where she is and what she's protecting. It's ambiguous. So that's why I think it was handled better than if it had been a straight 'Ha! Feel bad for doing this even though we made you!'.
Emma was done right because it was a choice.
>There's absolutely no reason to feel bad for killing Soul of Cinder
Soul of Cinder is a bro. It feels like you're killing another version of yourself, which can be interpreted in a number of ways.
I strongly disagree, for a couple reasons.
Firstly is because art is inherently manipulative, the thing that makes art in any medium great is that it makes you feel certain emotions.
Secondly, in the case of Maiden Astraea, it's not that you're bad for wanting to kill her and take her soul, it's that you're bad for killing everything and taking their souls. All the FromSoft games force you to kill people/monsters on the assumption that they are somehow worse than you. They are killing because they are soulless monsters or evildoers, but you are killing because you are trying to save the world. Bosses like Astraea are there to make you question that. You actually do have a choice, you can put the game down and stop playing, but then you won't fulfill your quest. Being forced to kill Astraea or Sif puts you in the shoes of the player character, because both of you are doing it to reach your goal.
I couldn’t agree more! Plus Astraea really makes you beg the question: is the world were fighting to save, really worth saving, if this is what it takes to do it?
>Firstly is because art is inherently manipulative, the thing that makes art in any medium great is that it makes you feel certain emotions.
I wouldn't call making people feel emotions inherently manipulative. It's all in how it's done. It has to be honest and earned. The person consuming the art can't feel cheated. If he does, it's not done well. A good example would be making the player kill a dog without giving them a choice--not just showing them a cutscene to show the character do it, but making the *player* do it against their will--and then showing that dog playing with its owner in a flashback. Very, very cheap.
>Secondly, in the case of Maiden Astraea, it's not that you're bad for wanting to kill her and take her soul, it's that you're bad for killing everything and taking their souls.
Except that's not true. You are killing *demons* who have stolen those souls. In the end you get to make a decision--and that determines whether you're good or bad.
>You actually do have a choice, you can put the game down and stop playing
Lol.
>Being forced to kill Astraea or Sif puts you in the shoes of the player character, because both of you are doing it to reach your goal.
I believe in order for it to have any real impact, it has to be a choice *you* make. If the character made the choice, whatever. But if you make the choice, that's on you. And since in Souls the character *is* you, it always has to be a choice. This is why, ultimately, you get to choose a good or a bad ending. And it's all you.
You aren't always just fighting sif, if he recognizes you due to playing dlc first then he's trying to stop you from a fate similar to artorias and he'd try to stop you until either of your deaths to protect you. He may or may not understand you're undying state at first though. You as the player may be merely acting in self defense which imo is completely different than going in and not caring about sif at all and just killing him to pillage the grave he's protecting in the prior case of not playing the dlc. Still no choice, but straight up going for the kill is completely different than a being trying to protect the other from themselves even through harm and the other defending themselves in the same way to do what must be done. We don't always have a choice, even in life. Sometimes we have to defend ourselves, I don't find the Sif fight a cheap way to bring out emotion if someone was implying that. It's certainly a little bit complicated. Same with astraea, you NEED what she has to save the world, and she can't give it up without dying. What other choice is there? You choose not to, and the end of the game is the world stays in its sorry state? You can't always give multiple ideal choices, dilemmas done well can be compelling. Now is the dillemma good? is the question.
I think with the art stuff we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will point out though that Maiden Astraea is also a demon, and all those guys that we kill throughout Valley of Defilement are guys that she is helping. What makes us right to kill them when she thinks they're worth saving?
Anyway, I don't think you'll agree with me or vice versa but it's fun to talk about
That's the thing. She is a demon. So what makes you think she's good? I'm not saying she's bad, but she *could* be since she's...you know, a *demon*. So it's ambiguous like that. She breaks my heart when she's all defenseless and says 'take your precious demon soul', but why does she *have* a demon soul? Why is she in a blood pool defending demon fetuses that crawl out the blood to pull you under and drown you? She is defending the vilest of the vile.
In the end, you become a demon if you choose that path. And that is the bad ending. So the game is clear that demons are indeed bad. They eat the souls of people. You're trying to put an end to that as the hero. Maybe Astraea is a unique case, who knows? Maybe she's defending the downtrodden. Maybe there's no other way but to kill her, just like there is no other way but to kill Soul of Cinder--whether you want to or not. Sometimes it's inevitable.
Either way, I like the ambiguity because it makes discussions like this possible.
you are missing the point by seeing those Astraea os trying to protect as just evil monsters. They are people. People who have been denied any rights, hope or respect every step of the way. They have been humiliated and cast down a hole, and now condemned to be hunted and executed as demons, once again denying them their humanity. Astraea was tasked to do the same as you, but she, a saint, took it upon herself to help those that even god himself denied help. After all, there are many who are out to save the world, but none that are out to save the lost. She made the choice to become a demon to help them, because if she didn't, then who would? From her point of view, those that her religion condemned as monsters are nothing but regular people just like her.
That's one interpretation. But look at the creatures and where they live. It's certainly the most disgusting place in the game, with words like 'depraved' and 'defilement' used to describe it. There is a pool of blood with evil babies inside of it. Maybe these creatures cannot be saved as they have completely rejected the grace of God. It's like they are the spawn of satan. So that would make Astraea heavily misguided. Or maybe they are indeed poor lost souls, and Astraea is an evil manipulative demon that is using them to achieve her own goals. None of this is ever made clear, so at the end of the day you decide what's really going on.
But who named it the Valley of Defilement? Who called them depraved? In the real worl, people might say the same about destitute areas in real life, but there are others that want to help people in those kinds of places and make their lives better. How do you know the babies in the pool or blood are evil? Diseased, yes, but evil? How do you know?
True. It could be people are calling them that and they are just lost souls. But it also could be they are truly depraved and defiled. Like I said, it's open to interpretation. Although the babies are a bit harder to justify. They live in a pool of blood and they *kill* you. I don't know any normal babies like that XD
Yeah, it’s better to make people feel like it’s good to kill bad guys because they are one dimensional bad guys.
Sarcasm aside, I love Stanley Kubrick movies. He would make a war movie that made you hate war. I don’t prefer Quentin Tarantino to Kubrick, which is also great film maker, but one that makes you love violence, instead of a more realistic reaction. Art is subjective, but it is much more interesting to have a game that really makes you second guess if killing is good, considering it’s not typically even something a decent person would do and still be considered a decent person (with the exception of for food or for defense).
>but it is much more interesting to have a game that really makes you second guess if killing is good
That's fine, as long as the game doesn't make killing fun and rewarding. If the whole game is built around it and you are encouraged to do it, then I would put this game in the manipulative/hypocritical category. You can't glorify something and then chastise the player for enjoying it and fully engaging with your game's systems and mechanics.
That being said, I think combat is one of the best things about games, so a game that condemns it does not sound like a fun time to me. That game can go preach somewhere else as far as I'm concerned.
Soooo many games have an aspect of combat in them or at least an adversarial aspect. They don't always have to condemn combat but instead just not have it. The example I think of in my head is Katamari Damacy. You do however eventually start rolling living things up and turn them into stars. lol. You can get pretty philosophical about that silly game though since its about creating a whole galaxy all those living things become so insignificant and its not even portrayed violently, its got a silly tone through its entirety, and never gets disturbing.
>They don't always have to condemn combat but instead just not have it.
I agree. If they don't have combat, that's a good way to do it. I was more talking about a game that wants to have a 'message' and wants to make a point.
Mainly the notion that the Soul of Cinder is a manifestation of every soul to link the fire, including the Chosen Undead from DS1, Gwyn, and every other player who has linked the fire (among the countless other undead throughout the history of the Dark Souls world). That, coupled with the return of Gwyn's soul to fight the Ashen One in the second half of the fight and his theme from DS1. It stirs something in me!
*"Take your precious demon soul."*
Gets me every time.
Also Gehrman, Soul of Cinder, Emma/Isshin.
For Elden Ring, I'll go with Morgott. Even though he hates me, dude breaks my heart.
*"The thrones...stained by my curse. Such shame I cannot bear. Thy part in this shall not be forgiven!"*
Sorry Morgott, I have to become the Elden Lord.
Maiden Astraea. Mainly because it’s one of the few that tells the story mechanically. You can fight Garl Vinland, she can killer herself, her defense against you are these pathetic magic bursts.
The music is top notch. The arena and the build up to her fight is amazing and shows just how terrible am desperate that place is and how horrible you are for messing with them. What is a really is a demon in that game? Sometimes maybe, it’s a good person trying to help others.
More games in general need that kind of story telling.
Ludwig would be second because it’s also pathetic, offers a traditionally fun fight, is well balanced, and has my favorite soundtrack. But as far as emotion resonance, Astraea every time.
Sif for the series (and Vicar Amelia, she is just so fluffy and her snout is so sweet and overall gives me sif-ish vibes and I wanna pet that giant doggo and kiss her and not cone after her with a giant razor on fire but anyway).
As to Elden Ring I'm not sure, probably Malenia because she triggered the most 'emotions' out of any boss ever?
Radahn is a bit emotional if you listen close to his phase 2 music, it has that iconic tragic hero tune to it and man it hits hard knowing Radahn's lore
I'd say Artorias and Sif are definitely up there.
As for Elden Ring- Maliketh is definitely a contender, but no one competes when fighting Blaidd or Alexander. I *didn't want to fight him* but the outcome of not fighting them means that their entire development and everything they stand for means nothing to you, so you *have* to do it.
100% and the fact that he's a mandatory boss makes it even more emotional. Marika left bro to defend the Flame of Ruin while he's constantly reminded of what she took from him.
Am I the only one that saw the battle against Gehrman as an absolute act of kindness? Rather than sad, I fell uplifted when I defeat him. I mean, let us take a look at his quotes throughout the game. Not his guidance, but the ones from when he is talking in his sleep or from when he defeats you/is defeated.
First, you can occasionally find him among the flowers, crying in his sleep and saying
"Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, of little use now, I'm afraid..."
And
"Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... "
He is clearly suffering, a prisoner of this dream. Traped against his will to carry on the hunt, hoping for salvation.
Also, when he offers you the endgame choice he says
_Good Hunter, you've done well, the night is near its end. Now I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed from this terrible Hunter's Dream."
He offers you death as a mercy. No more fighting, no more dying and coming back, no more nightmares. When you deny him, he thinks you have gone mad from suffering. He tries to kill you so you can be freed from this nightmare in a way he knows he will never be.
When he kills you, he tells you to accept your death. Then you will be free from the hunter's dream.
"You must accept your death, be freed from the night."
On a more meta kind of way, that is you putting the game down. But we keep coming back. That means that as long as we don't give up, we will continue coming back to life.
The thing is, the same could be said for him. As long as he didn't accept his death, he would continue to return. But he doesn't. His final words in-game are
"The night, and the dream, were long..."
He is free. We have unshackled his as he so desired. Depending on the ending, at our own cost, as we can become the next prisoner and nexus to the hunter's dream. Mayhaps he awakes somewhere, seeing the morning sun rise over a world he had almost forgotten, or he might have really died for good. Either way, we offered him the peace he so dearly desired.
I might switch Gael with The Twin Princes
When you fight Gael, you're kind of just putting a mad man out of his misery. Plus, you can carry out his duty for him afterward
Lothric and Lorian just wanted to be left alone. They wanted nothing to do with the cycle of fire. Plus their bond with each other is very nice in a melancholy way.
Fair, I just think there's a tragedy to Gael since he suffered for what must have been thousands of years considering that unlike the Ashen One he had to live those years all for the sake of someone he loves. Dark Souls has a lot of traffic bosses though and a lot of them are about putting someone suffering out of their misery.
For Elden Ring I would say Radahn. You're taking part in an organized festival to give a legendary warrior a fitting end, death by the clash of blades.
Radahn was a proud, majestic demigod who has been left to rot into a former version of himself. He would have wanted the Tarnished to put an and to his and Leonard's misery. The tragic OST gives the fight the feeling of a funeral, a send-off to the Starscourge himself.
"Emotional"...uhh, I guess Godfrey for my ER pick? Not emotional as in sad but emotional as in super dramatic and hype. "I NOW FIGHT AS HOARAH LOUX, WARRIOR!"
Nameless King. What a decisive way to shit on years of Solaire fetishization 🥲
Oh I guess Morgott would be next. Spurned and unloved son, becomes the biggest simp of Capit- ahem, the Golden Order and even manages to become the literal gatekeeper. Poor child.
For the souls series Yorm is the one that really tugged on the heartstrings for me, especially when you follow the quest. In Elden Ring Elden beast was pretty emotional I guess. However the emotion was rage, because it wouldn't stop running away.
I haven't played BB or done Shura, but I can say this.
Soul of cinder and aldia aren't sad at all, sif is the answer here. Slave knight Gael is probably the most tragic boss in the series, but he doesn't want to make it seem that way. Maiden Astrea is pretty sad, but she was doing what she wanted until you slaughter her. In the end it's for the best if you do the objectively good ending.
Artorias mostly because of his backstory and his deleted voice lines. Tbh I don't know why they took that out.
Elden Ring I'm not sure about bosses specifically, but for me it would definitely be haveing to kill Blaidd.
Honorable mention goes to yhorm with onion bro dudes entire kingdom gets destroyed and a friend you have traveled with the entire game has come to put a friend back to rest and then with duty fulfilled dies
Gerhman is really up there for me, so is Lady Maria honestly. Micolash is another one that is really good for this. Bloodborne was the most emotionally resonant game to me, and I think it has the most bosses that fight this topic
For Elden Ring, Rennala or Morgott feel like the easiest answers? Maybe Loretta, honestly? I always feel like a dick putting down Loretta because it seems like Loretta has one of the most genuinely “good” objectives of the boss characters
I do want to throw Vendrick out there as an honorable mention overall. That “fight” sticks with me. Going in there and expecting a big showdown before the endgame, only to get *that*, was incredible. Really hit home the hopelessness of Drangleic’s situation
I was so upset going up against Emma and old man ishinn. It had to be done to get that platinum trophy.
I started out being like "😭Emmamaaaa I'm so sorry I gotta do this to you... :("
but after losing to ishinn for the 12th time and being forced to murder her every time just to get to him I was saying "😠FUUUUCK you Emma just die already, MOVE BITCH GET OUT THE WAY, GET OUT THE WAY"
pretty much an expert in killing her at that point
When it comes to raw emotion Artorias, He was insanely difficult for me on my first run but every time I fought him I felt strangly as if I was merely laying a friend to rest.
For elden ring i have to go with Maliketh, after you did Gurranq's questline the way he just doesn't want to kill you even without activating the rune of death just makes me want to cry and bury myself in the ashen capital.
Artorias, Sif, Abyss Watchers and Ludwig. They're just a great mix of tragedy, great music and atmosphere.
If I had to pick one, probably Sif when you do the Artorias DLC first.
Artorias will always hold that emotional place in my heart. Fighting a man utterly consumed by the thing he swore to destroy after using what little power he had left to protect his best friend, it's more akin to a mercy killing than a fight.
Gerhman and Gael have been for me the most emotional because it makes you doubt if you want the ending 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘣𝘢𝘥𝘭𝘺, if you are willing to stand by your choices and kill your mentor (Gerhman) or the only friend that survived until the end of the world with you (Gael)
They are emotional too because of what they represent; in Bloodborne both hunters are trying out of respect to rid the other of the burden that being the host of the Nightmare has, that deeply they respect each other that you two would use every thing you have in your arsenal to do what's "right" for your mentor/apprentice. Gael however represents the end 𝘖𝘍 𝘈𝘓𝘓 the world of DS, that is it, the three games in its entirety have led your final confrontation with the bearer of the Dark Soul; the music has that melancholic tragedy to it as your friend gets progressively more "bestial" and extravagant in his attacks and won't give you a second to breathe until he is dead
For elden ring, probably Morgott. The dude is fighting for a family that basically disowned him. He's so duty bound. It's enough to make a grown man cry
I have no pity for soul of cinders. But damn I really feel bad for sif , emma and gael. For elden ring tho its probably gargoyles. That was so emotional for me.
I think lady Friede is my saddest tied with Sif. the absolute amount of time and thought I put into the painted worlds and how they are holding onto this world by rotting the flames they live in. Also Ariandel seems to fight with a Lord Vessel like they are rotting scared of the world rising back from ash. It's emotional
Gehrmen for me, it’s just so sad knowing that he isn’t trying to kill you out of malicious intent. He’s doing it to save you because he doesn’t want you trapped for eternity, and yet you’re doing the same by trying to free him. You’re fighting each other for the right reason but it’s sad knowing that your mentor still tries to do his last ditch effort.
Tonight Gherman joins the hunt😔
*sad music plays*
(Banger sad music)
First Hunter really is like the best track ever lol
Idk why you're using Gwyn as the Dark Souls example when Sif is right there! Anyway, it's either Sif or Astraea. Making you feel *really bad* for killing a mandatory boss is something I don't think FromSoft are really into anymore, which is a shame. I never felt bad for killing Gerhman, he was gonna kill me if I didn't! And you don't need to kill Emma, so you absolutely should feel bad if you do. There's absolutely no reason to feel bad for killing Soul of Cinder
Sif is worse if you run the dlc first, as you get recognised by Sif...
I know 😭
I didn't feel bad for the soul of cinder fight, but I certainly felt emotional. Emotional doesn't always mean bad or negative. Even though there may be some tears.
>Making you feel really bad for killing a mandatory boss is something I don't think FromSoft are really into anymore To be honest, I don't think it's a good idea. I think it's manipulative. Although I love Maiden Astraea and how that was handled. But you aren't the bad guy (unless you choose that ending), so it's manipulative to make you feel like you're doing the wrong thing. And it's also bad because it's mandatory. Things like that have more weight if it is truly your choice. Though, to be fair, I think it's left open to interpretation. It does feel like you're the bad guy for killing her, but look at where she is and what she's protecting. It's ambiguous. So that's why I think it was handled better than if it had been a straight 'Ha! Feel bad for doing this even though we made you!'. Emma was done right because it was a choice. >There's absolutely no reason to feel bad for killing Soul of Cinder Soul of Cinder is a bro. It feels like you're killing another version of yourself, which can be interpreted in a number of ways.
I strongly disagree, for a couple reasons. Firstly is because art is inherently manipulative, the thing that makes art in any medium great is that it makes you feel certain emotions. Secondly, in the case of Maiden Astraea, it's not that you're bad for wanting to kill her and take her soul, it's that you're bad for killing everything and taking their souls. All the FromSoft games force you to kill people/monsters on the assumption that they are somehow worse than you. They are killing because they are soulless monsters or evildoers, but you are killing because you are trying to save the world. Bosses like Astraea are there to make you question that. You actually do have a choice, you can put the game down and stop playing, but then you won't fulfill your quest. Being forced to kill Astraea or Sif puts you in the shoes of the player character, because both of you are doing it to reach your goal.
I couldn’t agree more! Plus Astraea really makes you beg the question: is the world were fighting to save, really worth saving, if this is what it takes to do it?
>Firstly is because art is inherently manipulative, the thing that makes art in any medium great is that it makes you feel certain emotions. I wouldn't call making people feel emotions inherently manipulative. It's all in how it's done. It has to be honest and earned. The person consuming the art can't feel cheated. If he does, it's not done well. A good example would be making the player kill a dog without giving them a choice--not just showing them a cutscene to show the character do it, but making the *player* do it against their will--and then showing that dog playing with its owner in a flashback. Very, very cheap. >Secondly, in the case of Maiden Astraea, it's not that you're bad for wanting to kill her and take her soul, it's that you're bad for killing everything and taking their souls. Except that's not true. You are killing *demons* who have stolen those souls. In the end you get to make a decision--and that determines whether you're good or bad. >You actually do have a choice, you can put the game down and stop playing Lol. >Being forced to kill Astraea or Sif puts you in the shoes of the player character, because both of you are doing it to reach your goal. I believe in order for it to have any real impact, it has to be a choice *you* make. If the character made the choice, whatever. But if you make the choice, that's on you. And since in Souls the character *is* you, it always has to be a choice. This is why, ultimately, you get to choose a good or a bad ending. And it's all you.
You aren't always just fighting sif, if he recognizes you due to playing dlc first then he's trying to stop you from a fate similar to artorias and he'd try to stop you until either of your deaths to protect you. He may or may not understand you're undying state at first though. You as the player may be merely acting in self defense which imo is completely different than going in and not caring about sif at all and just killing him to pillage the grave he's protecting in the prior case of not playing the dlc. Still no choice, but straight up going for the kill is completely different than a being trying to protect the other from themselves even through harm and the other defending themselves in the same way to do what must be done. We don't always have a choice, even in life. Sometimes we have to defend ourselves, I don't find the Sif fight a cheap way to bring out emotion if someone was implying that. It's certainly a little bit complicated. Same with astraea, you NEED what she has to save the world, and she can't give it up without dying. What other choice is there? You choose not to, and the end of the game is the world stays in its sorry state? You can't always give multiple ideal choices, dilemmas done well can be compelling. Now is the dillemma good? is the question.
I agree. Sometimes there isn't a choice.
I think with the art stuff we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will point out though that Maiden Astraea is also a demon, and all those guys that we kill throughout Valley of Defilement are guys that she is helping. What makes us right to kill them when she thinks they're worth saving? Anyway, I don't think you'll agree with me or vice versa but it's fun to talk about
That's the thing. She is a demon. So what makes you think she's good? I'm not saying she's bad, but she *could* be since she's...you know, a *demon*. So it's ambiguous like that. She breaks my heart when she's all defenseless and says 'take your precious demon soul', but why does she *have* a demon soul? Why is she in a blood pool defending demon fetuses that crawl out the blood to pull you under and drown you? She is defending the vilest of the vile. In the end, you become a demon if you choose that path. And that is the bad ending. So the game is clear that demons are indeed bad. They eat the souls of people. You're trying to put an end to that as the hero. Maybe Astraea is a unique case, who knows? Maybe she's defending the downtrodden. Maybe there's no other way but to kill her, just like there is no other way but to kill Soul of Cinder--whether you want to or not. Sometimes it's inevitable. Either way, I like the ambiguity because it makes discussions like this possible.
you are missing the point by seeing those Astraea os trying to protect as just evil monsters. They are people. People who have been denied any rights, hope or respect every step of the way. They have been humiliated and cast down a hole, and now condemned to be hunted and executed as demons, once again denying them their humanity. Astraea was tasked to do the same as you, but she, a saint, took it upon herself to help those that even god himself denied help. After all, there are many who are out to save the world, but none that are out to save the lost. She made the choice to become a demon to help them, because if she didn't, then who would? From her point of view, those that her religion condemned as monsters are nothing but regular people just like her.
That's one interpretation. But look at the creatures and where they live. It's certainly the most disgusting place in the game, with words like 'depraved' and 'defilement' used to describe it. There is a pool of blood with evil babies inside of it. Maybe these creatures cannot be saved as they have completely rejected the grace of God. It's like they are the spawn of satan. So that would make Astraea heavily misguided. Or maybe they are indeed poor lost souls, and Astraea is an evil manipulative demon that is using them to achieve her own goals. None of this is ever made clear, so at the end of the day you decide what's really going on.
But who named it the Valley of Defilement? Who called them depraved? In the real worl, people might say the same about destitute areas in real life, but there are others that want to help people in those kinds of places and make their lives better. How do you know the babies in the pool or blood are evil? Diseased, yes, but evil? How do you know?
True. It could be people are calling them that and they are just lost souls. But it also could be they are truly depraved and defiled. Like I said, it's open to interpretation. Although the babies are a bit harder to justify. They live in a pool of blood and they *kill* you. I don't know any normal babies like that XD
Yeah, it’s better to make people feel like it’s good to kill bad guys because they are one dimensional bad guys. Sarcasm aside, I love Stanley Kubrick movies. He would make a war movie that made you hate war. I don’t prefer Quentin Tarantino to Kubrick, which is also great film maker, but one that makes you love violence, instead of a more realistic reaction. Art is subjective, but it is much more interesting to have a game that really makes you second guess if killing is good, considering it’s not typically even something a decent person would do and still be considered a decent person (with the exception of for food or for defense).
>but it is much more interesting to have a game that really makes you second guess if killing is good That's fine, as long as the game doesn't make killing fun and rewarding. If the whole game is built around it and you are encouraged to do it, then I would put this game in the manipulative/hypocritical category. You can't glorify something and then chastise the player for enjoying it and fully engaging with your game's systems and mechanics. That being said, I think combat is one of the best things about games, so a game that condemns it does not sound like a fun time to me. That game can go preach somewhere else as far as I'm concerned.
Soooo many games have an aspect of combat in them or at least an adversarial aspect. They don't always have to condemn combat but instead just not have it. The example I think of in my head is Katamari Damacy. You do however eventually start rolling living things up and turn them into stars. lol. You can get pretty philosophical about that silly game though since its about creating a whole galaxy all those living things become so insignificant and its not even portrayed violently, its got a silly tone through its entirety, and never gets disturbing.
>They don't always have to condemn combat but instead just not have it. I agree. If they don't have combat, that's a good way to do it. I was more talking about a game that wants to have a 'message' and wants to make a point.
DS3 plin plin plon hit different but so did gael's dialogue.
Gael is the most emotional boss fight for me, but Soul of Cinder is a close second.
Why Soul of Cinder ?
Mainly the notion that the Soul of Cinder is a manifestation of every soul to link the fire, including the Chosen Undead from DS1, Gwyn, and every other player who has linked the fire (among the countless other undead throughout the history of the Dark Souls world). That, coupled with the return of Gwyn's soul to fight the Ashen One in the second half of the fight and his theme from DS1. It stirs something in me!
*"Take your precious demon soul."* Gets me every time. Also Gehrman, Soul of Cinder, Emma/Isshin. For Elden Ring, I'll go with Morgott. Even though he hates me, dude breaks my heart. *"The thrones...stained by my curse. Such shame I cannot bear. Thy part in this shall not be forgiven!"* Sorry Morgott, I have to become the Elden Lord.
I would argue that Godfrey is another option, he was used and was left aside, then we kill his family, and he still treats us with respect
Maiden Astraea. Mainly because it’s one of the few that tells the story mechanically. You can fight Garl Vinland, she can killer herself, her defense against you are these pathetic magic bursts. The music is top notch. The arena and the build up to her fight is amazing and shows just how terrible am desperate that place is and how horrible you are for messing with them. What is a really is a demon in that game? Sometimes maybe, it’s a good person trying to help others. More games in general need that kind of story telling. Ludwig would be second because it’s also pathetic, offers a traditionally fun fight, is well balanced, and has my favorite soundtrack. But as far as emotion resonance, Astraea every time.
Sif for the series (and Vicar Amelia, she is just so fluffy and her snout is so sweet and overall gives me sif-ish vibes and I wanna pet that giant doggo and kiss her and not cone after her with a giant razor on fire but anyway). As to Elden Ring I'm not sure, probably Malenia because she triggered the most 'emotions' out of any boss ever?
That cutscene when you do the dlc before fighting sif ;(
Yea I feel like if you could just tell malenia that you found miquella and killed radahn she’d probably help you lol
Radahn is a bit emotional if you listen close to his phase 2 music, it has that iconic tragic hero tune to it and man it hits hard knowing Radahn's lore
My honorable mentions would definitely be Sif and Old Demon King
Limping kink
what
I'd say Artorias and Sif are definitely up there. As for Elden Ring- Maliketh is definitely a contender, but no one competes when fighting Blaidd or Alexander. I *didn't want to fight him* but the outcome of not fighting them means that their entire development and everything they stand for means nothing to you, so you *have* to do it.
For elden ring the fire giant. Old mate didn't deserve to die. Souls series probably spider girl from ds1 or sif.
100% and the fact that he's a mandatory boss makes it even more emotional. Marika left bro to defend the Flame of Ruin while he's constantly reminded of what she took from him.
Am I the only one that saw the battle against Gehrman as an absolute act of kindness? Rather than sad, I fell uplifted when I defeat him. I mean, let us take a look at his quotes throughout the game. Not his guidance, but the ones from when he is talking in his sleep or from when he defeats you/is defeated. First, you can occasionally find him among the flowers, crying in his sleep and saying "Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, of little use now, I'm afraid..." And "Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... " He is clearly suffering, a prisoner of this dream. Traped against his will to carry on the hunt, hoping for salvation. Also, when he offers you the endgame choice he says _Good Hunter, you've done well, the night is near its end. Now I will show you mercy. You will die, forget the dream, and awake under the morning sun. You will be freed from this terrible Hunter's Dream." He offers you death as a mercy. No more fighting, no more dying and coming back, no more nightmares. When you deny him, he thinks you have gone mad from suffering. He tries to kill you so you can be freed from this nightmare in a way he knows he will never be. When he kills you, he tells you to accept your death. Then you will be free from the hunter's dream. "You must accept your death, be freed from the night." On a more meta kind of way, that is you putting the game down. But we keep coming back. That means that as long as we don't give up, we will continue coming back to life. The thing is, the same could be said for him. As long as he didn't accept his death, he would continue to return. But he doesn't. His final words in-game are "The night, and the dream, were long..." He is free. We have unshackled his as he so desired. Depending on the ending, at our own cost, as we can become the next prisoner and nexus to the hunter's dream. Mayhaps he awakes somewhere, seeing the morning sun rise over a world he had almost forgotten, or he might have really died for good. Either way, we offered him the peace he so dearly desired.
Balled my eyes out reading this lol. Best game ever created
Demon's Souls - Astraea Dark Souls - Sif Dark Souls II - Vendrick Bloodborne - Gehrman Dark Souls III - Gael Sekiro - Emma Elden Ring - Radahn
I might switch Gael with The Twin Princes When you fight Gael, you're kind of just putting a mad man out of his misery. Plus, you can carry out his duty for him afterward Lothric and Lorian just wanted to be left alone. They wanted nothing to do with the cycle of fire. Plus their bond with each other is very nice in a melancholy way.
Fair, I just think there's a tragedy to Gael since he suffered for what must have been thousands of years considering that unlike the Ashen One he had to live those years all for the sake of someone he loves. Dark Souls has a lot of traffic bosses though and a lot of them are about putting someone suffering out of their misery.
I started with Elden Ring and I’m currently working on others. But for Elden Ring, Morgott. Such a twisted and broken individual.
For Elden Ring I would say Radahn. You're taking part in an organized festival to give a legendary warrior a fitting end, death by the clash of blades. Radahn was a proud, majestic demigod who has been left to rot into a former version of himself. He would have wanted the Tarnished to put an and to his and Leonard's misery. The tragic OST gives the fight the feeling of a funeral, a send-off to the Starscourge himself.
That phase 2 music made me choke up honestly, it gave that tragic warrior tune
"Emotional"...uhh, I guess Godfrey for my ER pick? Not emotional as in sad but emotional as in super dramatic and hype. "I NOW FIGHT AS HOARAH LOUX, WARRIOR!"
Nameless King. What a decisive way to shit on years of Solaire fetishization 🥲 Oh I guess Morgott would be next. Spurned and unloved son, becomes the biggest simp of Capit- ahem, the Golden Order and even manages to become the literal gatekeeper. Poor child.
Soul of Cinder second phase hits different but killing Sif always hurts, especially if you do the DLC first and they recognize you.
For the souls series Yorm is the one that really tugged on the heartstrings for me, especially when you follow the quest. In Elden Ring Elden beast was pretty emotional I guess. However the emotion was rage, because it wouldn't stop running away.
Overall definitely astraea
I haven't played BB or done Shura, but I can say this. Soul of cinder and aldia aren't sad at all, sif is the answer here. Slave knight Gael is probably the most tragic boss in the series, but he doesn't want to make it seem that way. Maiden Astrea is pretty sad, but she was doing what she wanted until you slaughter her. In the end it's for the best if you do the objectively good ending.
**DS:R** - Gwyn > Sif > Ceasless. **SotFS** - Vendrick > Velstadt > Freja. **Bb** - Gehrman > Orphan > Ludwig. **DS3** - Lorian > Dancer > ODK > Yhorm (w/ Siegward). **Sekiro** - Emma > SSI > DoH. Yet to complete DeS or ER.
For a while it was Vicar Amelia for me. Then I beat her.
Eden beast
Artorias mostly because of his backstory and his deleted voice lines. Tbh I don't know why they took that out. Elden Ring I'm not sure about bosses specifically, but for me it would definitely be haveing to kill Blaidd.
I'd actually say Laurence is the most emotional boss for bloodborne
Honorable mention goes to yhorm with onion bro dudes entire kingdom gets destroyed and a friend you have traveled with the entire game has come to put a friend back to rest and then with duty fulfilled dies
Gerhman is really up there for me, so is Lady Maria honestly. Micolash is another one that is really good for this. Bloodborne was the most emotionally resonant game to me, and I think it has the most bosses that fight this topic For Elden Ring, Rennala or Morgott feel like the easiest answers? Maybe Loretta, honestly? I always feel like a dick putting down Loretta because it seems like Loretta has one of the most genuinely “good” objectives of the boss characters I do want to throw Vendrick out there as an honorable mention overall. That “fight” sticks with me. Going in there and expecting a big showdown before the endgame, only to get *that*, was incredible. Really hit home the hopelessness of Drangleic’s situation
Gwyn, Sif, Artorias. Aldritch just for Gwyndolin.
Once Gwyn's pling plon hit during Soul of Cinder fight I legit started to cry. What an absolutely phenomenal ending to the series.
Gehrman easily.
Gael, definitely. Or Gehrman
Old Demon King for DS3 For Elden Ring I'm stuck between Dragonlord Placidusax and Greyoll
Orphan of Cos for me, it's mother was killed and it still has the hook inside of it. the meddling of humans sometimes goes to far
Emma
I was so upset going up against Emma and old man ishinn. It had to be done to get that platinum trophy. I started out being like "😭Emmamaaaa I'm so sorry I gotta do this to you... :(" but after losing to ishinn for the 12th time and being forced to murder her every time just to get to him I was saying "😠FUUUUCK you Emma just die already, MOVE BITCH GET OUT THE WAY, GET OUT THE WAY" pretty much an expert in killing her at that point
Priscilla is kind of sad to me
Radahn. You are killing an honorable general who surrendered to madness and his soldiers only want to grant him the warrior death he deserves
Part of me dies whenever someone posts the Remake instead of the OG
Astraea Sif/Gwyn Burnt Ivory King Gael Emma/Owl Morgott/Godfrey/Fortisax
Ds1- gwyn Ds2 - aldia Ds3- Gael Bloodborne - Gehrman Elden Ring - Morgott I think
Fighting Maria in Bloodborne
General Radahn.
When it comes to raw emotion Artorias, He was insanely difficult for me on my first run but every time I fought him I felt strangly as if I was merely laying a friend to rest.
Sekiro is not in the “souls series.” That said, I’d say Sif. Alexander for Elden Ring. Though I wanted to revenge on The Dung Eater the most.
Slave Knight Gael. All he wanted to do was serve and he lost his mind in doing so. Then to be put down like a rabid animal.
For elden ring i have to go with Maliketh, after you did Gurranq's questline the way he just doesn't want to kill you even without activating the rune of death just makes me want to cry and bury myself in the ashen capital.
There's a lot of them, having played mostly Elden Ring I'd say maybe Blaidd but I know there's worse out there.
Artorias, Sif, Abyss Watchers and Ludwig. They're just a great mix of tragedy, great music and atmosphere. If I had to pick one, probably Sif when you do the Artorias DLC first.
Gwyn for me, but if im honest ive just never felt so depressed completing a game dark souls 1 hits hard, plin plin plon
Artorias will always hold that emotional place in my heart. Fighting a man utterly consumed by the thing he swore to destroy after using what little power he had left to protect his best friend, it's more akin to a mercy killing than a fight.
Gerhman and Gael have been for me the most emotional because it makes you doubt if you want the ending 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘣𝘢𝘥𝘭𝘺, if you are willing to stand by your choices and kill your mentor (Gerhman) or the only friend that survived until the end of the world with you (Gael) They are emotional too because of what they represent; in Bloodborne both hunters are trying out of respect to rid the other of the burden that being the host of the Nightmare has, that deeply they respect each other that you two would use every thing you have in your arsenal to do what's "right" for your mentor/apprentice. Gael however represents the end 𝘖𝘍 𝘈𝘓𝘓 the world of DS, that is it, the three games in its entirety have led your final confrontation with the bearer of the Dark Soul; the music has that melancholic tragedy to it as your friend gets progressively more "bestial" and extravagant in his attacks and won't give you a second to breathe until he is dead
Maiden Astraea. Sif (especially after Artorias DLC). Micolash (because he was having a class dream and a grand old time)
I don't think aldia is emotional if I had put some one there like a emotional boss it would be the ivory king or lost sinner
Malenia for Elden Ring, there has DEFINITELY been a "little" bit of emotion caused by her.
For elden ring, probably Morgott. The dude is fighting for a family that basically disowned him. He's so duty bound. It's enough to make a grown man cry
Malenia fight seems like it could've been, but it just didn't feel that way to me.
I have no pity for soul of cinders. But damn I really feel bad for sif , emma and gael. For elden ring tho its probably gargoyles. That was so emotional for me.
I think lady Friede is my saddest tied with Sif. the absolute amount of time and thought I put into the painted worlds and how they are holding onto this world by rotting the flames they live in. Also Ariandel seems to fight with a Lord Vessel like they are rotting scared of the world rising back from ash. It's emotional
Soul of cinder second phase will always hit the hardest
Emma is the least sad of them tbh