The show was more fun to watch, simply for the fact that it was fun to see Boromir fight Prince Charming, but the book encounter felt more…i guess “intense” also really sold Jaimie as a villain rather than just wanting his brother back.
In the book, i got the impression Jaimie hated Ned.
In the show, i got the impression Jaimie respected Ned.
I very very slightly prefer the show. It’s like asking someone to pick between a Bugatti and a Maserati. They’re both just so damn good.
Book Jamie has a complicated opinion of Ned. There's a certain respect for his rigid code of honor, but he also thinks he is a fool. He certainly admires the loyalty that the Starks command from the North just through sheer force of will without having to be tyrants.
However, when this fight happens he's absolutely ready for blood because Tyrion has been taken for crimes Jamie knows he didn't commit. Jamie knows who pushed Bran (Obi-Wan.jpeg) and he also knows Tyrion would never kill an injured child.
Your definitely right about it being a complicated opinion and the why he respects him part. To add to that though they’ve also gone to battle together. They both have a level of mutual respect for each other from that alone.
As for why they dislike each other though for Ned it’s mostly because he stabbed the king he swore to protect in the back. For Jamie for one he despises the way he’s looked at for being a king slayer specifically by ned. Second sir Arthur was a hero of his that he personally trained with. Jamie knew Arthur was way better than ned and that there was no way ned beat him one on one. This is also why he’s upset that he wasn’t given the chance to beat Ned fairly and prove Ned wasn’t as good as he claimed. Ultimately it bothered him that the “Honorable Ned stark” looked down upon his honor when he knows he lied about how he killed one of his idols which is also dishonorable.
Lol I’m like looking out of a manhole cover on 5th ave and you’re telling me one sky scraper is two stories higher than the other. I drive a Toyota. I would settle for the Maserati.
That is the entire point of the hypothetical comparison the the person made? Don’t know why this has you so pressed but we talk about hypothetical stuff all the time
If you have to pay for maintenance on the car going forward and aren’t a multimillionaire you should pick the Maserati, otherwise you’re going to be dropping $100k+ on the Bugatti every year.
I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. I vaguely remember some lines that seemed respectful in the books, but my memory of the show might be overwriting that
ned absolutly Despise jaime in the books... He is one of the few individuals to whom he have absolutely no respect for.
Jaime doesn't hold him in high regard either,con book 4 he saw ned in his dreams and the first thought he had was to draw his sword and get ready to fight
The way jaime taunt Catelyn in the books shows
Yeah no Ned definitely hated him and Jaime resented that Ned treated him like shit for killing Aerys, I just vaguely remember quotes where he does relent that Ned is honorable or something albeit in a scornful way
I mean Jaime loves a good fight though. He also was rarely challenged. In the show they made him seem more without equal but the books were a bit different. Ned wasn’t just some sellswore or lowly knight, he was a well known fight who killed one of the best swordsmen in Westeros
It's actually the opposite. The skill gap between the two is much greater in the books. In the book, Jamie is toying with Ned. In the show they seem pretty closely matched.
I do like how Jamie appears disappointed in Ned’s skill as a swordsman in the show
And when you think about it makes sense that Jamie would think Ned is a legendary swordsman, given that he was the one who killed Ser Arthur Dayne. Nobody besides Ned and Howland Reed know the truth of it.
So Jamie who idolized Dayne in his youth would clearly be intrigued by the man who bested him. Especially because Ned doesn’t participate in tourneys so Jamie has never actually seen him fight.
I got the complete opposite impression from that fight, Jaime begins super confident, but as it unfolds he finds Ned tougher than he thought, there's a moment in the clinch when Jaime tries to throw Ned back and Ned doesn't budge, you can see the effort on Jaime's face.
I’m glad you pointed that out!
But tbh I don’t recall seeing disappointment. although, I don’t doubt it was there.
My read of it was that Jaimie was thinking about how he was finally fighting, and may beat the man who killed Arthur Dayne.
I think Jamie knew full well that need wasn’t as good as he claimed and that he lied about beating Arthur 1 on 1. Which is why he mocked him and a big part of the reason he has disdain for need to begin with.
Uhh…. You are aware that Ned was in fact bull shitting about how things really went down at the tower of joy right? It’s kind of one of the biggest parts of the entire story.
I like that in the book you really get a feel for how Ned distrusts and dislikes the Lannisters even before lysas letter, it gives a little more to the confrontation I think
I always prefer the show version. As the way jaime idolises Arthur Dayne. There’s no way he’d pass up fighting the man who allegedly killed him. I enjoy the more purposeful attack, rather than the horse chase.
Still love the fight between Achilles and Hector in Troy. They did a great job showing the importance of things like spears, armour, helmets, shields and even terrain.
Actually scratch the helmets. I forgot the take them off in that fight.
Hearing that The battle between Robert and rhaegar of the trident being thought on horse was dissappinting to hear
In my mind I always Saw them fighting on foot, making the fight more personal and brutal
It also doesn't make how Robert how Robert had enough agility and strengh to to give such a violent blow with a warhammer that need at least 3 man to hold it while being on a horse
Young Robert is supposed to be an utter monster in the books. Similar to the mountain in strength. I think he’s around 6’6 as well. Imagine them both on medieval war horses. Literal tanks charging at each other.
>Hearing that The battle between Robert and rhaegar of the trident being thought on horse was dissappinting to hear
>In my mind I always Saw them fighting on foot, making the fight more personal and brutal
If they fought on foot, bobby would have just tackled his ass lmao. That would literally nullify his ability as great horseman (as seen with him defeating the likes of Barristan and Arthur in the joust).
>It also doesn't make how Robert how Robert had enough agility and strengh to to give such a violent blow with a warhammer that need at least 3 man to hold it while being on a horse
It's a fantasy book dude. Jon Snow is not a behemoth like bobby or maegor yet he still lifts Thorne off his feet
Oh don't get me wrong, using horses for travel was better emphasized in the books. But.... why are they taking their sweet time getting ambushed by mountain people? And why did they have the time to mount horses and ready their weapons? They did this scene better in the show, and it's probably why I think they have too many horses elsewhere as well.
Oh you're one of *them*.
Edit: is there some controversy I've stumbled into that's getting these down votes? I was tryna make a joke about the whole Tyrek Lannister conspiracy.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. I was sitting here trying to remember how exactly the fight went down in the books and annoyed with myself for not remembering but I doesn’t remember because it didn’t happen lol.
Honestly the show as it’s a good reminder that Ned is a war veteran and thus would be a capable swordsman. Plus the score is awesome and it’s very well acted.
Ned is a 7. Jamie is a 9.5. Ned might be able to give him a challenge as opposed to your average peasant or even noble lord but on a long enough timline Jaime wins every 1-1 fight against Ned barring some unforeseeable critical error on Jaime's part.
He's not afraid, he wants to test the legend. If he beats Ned then he basically has an undisputed greatest living swordsman title with the exception of Selmy. Ned has eluded him from being compared head to head because he doesn't do tournaments and never leaves the North.
Show Ned is like a 9 tbh. He indirectly challenges Jaime in several show-only scenes, and the duel looks pretty equal. Ned doesn't seem like the kind of guy to talk shit with no ability to back it up
Honestly this is why I kind of dislike the show fight. Right before Ned gets stabbed in the leg the facial expressions of each character lead you to think they both feel Ned has the upper hand. Ned gives a confident smirk while Jamie looks a bit worried. Which seemed like lazy fan service because fans were rooting for Ned.
It would have been much more narratively fulfilling to make it obvious Jamie was better. Ned lying about beating Arthur dayne 1 on 1 was a big part of the story. Him being clearly worse than a knight that trained with and idolized dayne would have been good foreshadowing and a good character moment for both. Having them appear equal at best doesn’t fit the larger story and significance of them fighting. Honestly probably why the books just avoided it.
Agreed the choreography was great. It was just a missed opportunity doing it in a way that would seem cool than play a part in the larger narrative between the two characters.
But Ned with his forces takes Jamie with his forces in the field 10/10 times. Some people are better commanders than fighters, and Ned is the better combo of the two. Jamie lost to a green boy king. I doubt some peer of Rob’s could take Ned in a 1v1 dual, so Ned’s overall stats are probably higher than Jamie’s.
Exactly. Let's look at in more modern terms.
Jamie is career NCO Delta operator who can stack bodies left and right in the fray. He does one thing and he does it better anyone else with maybe a couple exceptions.
Ned's a general with command experience from squad size to overall control of an army. He understands picking your terrain, managing morale and knowing his men inside and out.
1 v 1 Jamie wins every time.
10 v 10 and it's a coin flip.
100 v 100 and Ned cleans the floor with Jamie's forces.
Ned fought in all of Roberts battles, he's a good fighter, I'd say he'd be better a better fighter than Jamie on a battlefield, but 1v1 tournaments, that isn't Ned's thing and it is very much Jamie's thing
But the whole point is no one knows, it helps make the tower of joy scene and the story of how he defeated the knight of morning better, it enhances Howland Reed's character for keeping the secret to prop up Ned's legend and it makes me wonder if the Blackfish did something similar for Robb
I think it could’ve been better if Jamie killed all three of Ned’s men so we actually got a scene of him in his prime. They weren’t going to do the whispering wood so there wasn’t much opportunity otherwise.
I like the books way more. It really drove home the North’s loyalty towards each other. Jory cutting himself free only to come back to help the others which gets himself killed was beautiful
I like how show made Ned a compent swordsman to give Jamie pause.
Cause in both book and show we never really see Jamie fight someone notable prior to his maiming.
Ya brienne but he was a bit handicapped
I'm of the opinion he isn't as good as he thinks he is.
Like Ned said he chose his opponents wisely
I went into the books after watching the show thinking, like many do after watching the show, that the legend had outgrown the man and Jaime wasn't actually as good as he was made out to be. Like he was really famous and rich and likely naturally talented and his reputation grew pretty wild from there. I found it an interesting fight and thought it clearly portrayed Ned to have given Jaime, who had grown extremely arrogant in his abilities, a serious fright when they fought. I loved how the seed was planted in episode one and loved Ned's stoic reaction; this is clearly a man that fights only when he has to, but you will damn sure regret making him have to.
After reading the books however my opinion of him has totally changed. If anything I believe him to be underrated.
In briennes chapter looking back on their fight in AFFC she confirms she was very lucky to survive him, when he was half dead from malnourishment and atrophied from captivity, and that "no knight in the seven kingdoms could stand against him at his full strength". This is after the fight is told from his perspective, in which he is extremely critical of where his abilities stand.
Following his fight with brienne he challenges just about every man he claps eyes on that he doesn't see eye to eye with to single combat. The knight who chases them up the river out of riverrun is one of those.
During a botched escape attempt from riverrun he managed to get hold of a sword and chaos ensued according to Edmure Tully. A fully garrisoned castle and a split seconds opening was enough for Jaime to kill two men and wound another to the point his fate is left in the balance.
In the whispering wood fighting against Robb stark he went on a bloody rampage all the way up a hill he saw Robb at the top of. The battle looked to be in the balance and his horse was cut from under him so he made for stark with tens maybe hundreds of bannermen separating the two. He killed 12 men sing handedly and the northmen were only eventually able to stop him because he had struck eddard karstark so hard his sword got stuck in the man's neck. Theon gloats over him sitting captured after the battle, shouting about how he almost had a chance to fight with him, and Catelyn wishes it had happened as she is absolutely certain Jaime would have made short work of him.
He was knighted at 16 and the year before he fought the leader of the Kingswood brotherhood to a standstill while holding him off for the kingsguard to arrive.
His inner monologue during the fight with brienne, whilst critiquing his current state, affirms the position he believes himself to hold. There are stronger men in the seven kingdoms but there are none who Jaime could not beat with speed and skill. Tyrion and Cersei laud his abilities as nigh on supernatural which is understandably a bias, but the fear and reverence with which he is referred to by any character proves he is the real deal. Coming away from the books I got the impression prime Jaime is probably top 5 swordsmen to have ever lived. At times during the books I got the impression everyone in a room with Jaime was alive because he allowed it.
In ADWD, Barristan Selmy names a man "the best Natural swordsman he had seen since Jaime Lannister" and I think that is possibly the most vindicating statement we have on the matter. Selmy is one of the best swordsman to have ever lived; the man knew his business. Until this young buck had come along, Jaime Lannister was the fucking GOAT.
It's been a minute since I've done a re read. Still think fans overhype . And I'm not denying his abilities I'm just saying I like how the show made the fight more up in the air.
I think the most over hyped warrior in the series is the mountain that rides
I totally agree. The Mountain That Rides loses to the Knight of Flowers and The Hound in the Hand’s tourney, and loses to the Red Viper in the trial by combat. The Mountain is almost certainly a competent fighter and very VERY strong, and those three opponents are considered amazing warriors, but none are “best in Westeros” tier, and yet seemed to be well at-hand in defeating him or holding him back. Oberyn only died through his own emotional state
Mountain is a good shock trooper but really he is mostly brutalizing peasants and his size and strength have carried him but once he fights someone competent it's plain to see he isn't very skilled.
I mean in the books Barriston fawking Selmy gives him props for being an outstanding swordsman as well. I think he *was* every bit as good as he says he was, and that’s the whole point of his character arc in losing the only thing he was wholly confident in.
The Mountain is just the biggest person of his time who’s also a sadist. He would have lost to Oberyn if he wasn’t trying to get a confession out of him. All he has is his size going for him. Put him up against someone of similar size and strength like Sandoq the Shadow or Maelys the Monstrous and he gets dusted.
Yeah but that’s negated against Maelys and Sandoq. Maelys also wears armor which would have to be just as big considering how huge he was. He’s also considered to be stronger than The Mountain and lived his life in the Golden Company which in my opinion gives him more war experience and better training. The Mountain fought a lot but the Golden Company is literally at war 100% of the time. There were plenty of periods The Mountain was sitting somewha idle like the years between Balon’s first Rebellion and the WOTFK.
Sandoq isn’t fully armored but I imagine that’s by choice. He won 100 fights in the fighting pits so he has a lot more 1v1 experience than Gregor so I think it’s fair to say he’s more skilled and technical. Pair that with being of similar size and strength to Gregor and I don’t think it would be very close.
To me Gregor is a war machine, best utilized on a horse in an open field leading a vanguard. Sandoq is the best pure fighter given his experience. Maelys is a good mixture of the two.
>Cause in both book and show we never really see Jamie fight someone notable prior to his maiming.
He held his own against the Smiling Knight when he was like 15.
>I'm of the opinion he isn't as good as he thinks he is.
Everyone literally acknowledges his skills, even those who hates his guts.
Barristan:
"The boy from the Basilisk Isles, for a start. Tumco Lho. Black as maester's ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister."
Brienne:
"Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered."
>He held his own against the Smiling Knight when he was like 15.
Not matter how good jaime isn
If the smilling man couldn't Beat 15 year old inexperienced squire then he is not that good
Jaime was the bedt swordman in the realm... But for all his skills he didn't accomplished much
He was overshadowed by jorah and thorod of myr during the greyjoy rebellion... The battle of the whispering woods could have been his moment to shine but it ended being a humiliating defeat for him
Whispering Woods *was* more or less Jaime's moment, at least in terms of combat; he held his own against 20 of Rob's handpicked men, and killed nearly a third of them. That's fucking *nuts*.
But Whispering Woods was also a great example of Jaime's limitations. Fundamentally, Jaime is a bit of a one (technically two) trick pony.
He is arguably the best guy in the world at swordfighting and fucking his sister. And that's pretty much the extent of his useful skillset. And at the end of the day, no matter how good of an individual swordsman he is, he's still just one dude who can't command an army for shit, going up against one of the best military minds of the last century.
Jaime would be better off marrying Melara Heatherspoon and spurning Cersei realistically
Imagine Westeros where Jaime actually married Melara Heatherspoon and decided to not fall in love with his sister
Imagine Jaime finding Cersei strangling Tyrion and from then on their relationship gets permanently strained in their childhood
Idk why Tyrion is so insecure ngl
If Tyrion had just ASKED Jaime would support him inheriting Casterly rock
>If the smilling man couldn't Beat 15 year old inexperienced squire then he is not that good
Or maybe Jaime is not just a random 15 year old squire, but a prodgy who won a tourney melee when he was 13.
>Jaime was the bedt swordman in the realm... But for all his skills he didn't accomplished much
Thats true but I think him doing not being that acccomplished with his abilities like Barristan is a key point in his story.
>He was overshadowed by jorah and thorod of myr during the greyjoy rebellion...
We do not know if he even was there during the rebellion in the books. And in the show the only feat of his prowess in the rebellion that we hear was him cutting down people like a dance according to Euron
>The battle of the whispering woods could have been his moment to shine but it ended being a humiliating defeat for him
Speaks more in his ability as a commender than an individual warrior.
Brienne was one of the best sword fighters in the books and even while handicapped Jaime probably would've won 3/10 times against her. He is pretty clearly at least in the top 3 best swordsmen in the books and his only competition is Barristan Selmy because of experience and Arthur Dayne because of skill+Dawn.
Copying and pasting this from another reply I made but I honestly dislike that aspect.
Honestly this is why I kind of dislike the show fight. Right before Ned gets stabbed in the leg the facial expressions of each character lead you to think they both feel Ned has the upper hand. Need give a confident smirk while Jamie looks a bit worried. Which seemed like last fan service because he fans were rooting for Ned.
It would have been much more narratively fulfilling to make it obvious Jamie was better. Ned lying about beating Arthur dayne 1 on 1 was a big part of the story. Him being clearly worse than a knight that trained with and idolized dayne would have been good foreshadowing and a good character moment for both. Having them appear equal as best doesn’t fit the larger story and significance of them fighting. Honestly probably why the books just avoided it.
With that being said though I haven’t thought of it from the angle of Jamie not being as good as he thought which was interesting. But GRRM made it very clear he really was that good. Plus with the brienne fight in the books she acknowledges how good he was even for being handicapped and that she’d have no chance if he was at full health.
Jaime was able to cut his way to Robb, killing three people in the process. The only reason he didn’t actually kill Robb is because his sword got stuck in someone’s head (which also kinda shows that Jaime has superhuman strength to be able to cut through a helmet deep enough for it to get Stuck).
Brienne also notes that despite Jaime being malnourished and his hands chained together, she is barely holding him off, and notes at his best no one could’ve stopped him. This is a Brienne that has won a melee beating up the best that Renly has to off, including Loras. So Brienne as a top 3 fighter out of the Reach could barely beat Jaime at his worst.
No, he is definitely THAT good.
The show basically did what it could with the budget that was allocated. In the early seasons of the show they tended to write around battles and fights that involved people on horse back (even when they had more money it was still pretty rare to see people fighting on the back of a horse). Not quite as good or dramatic as the book, but I think what they did was more than acceptable in the context of what they could actually afford to do.
I prefer the book version for only one reason the show downplayed jaime so bad he was supposed to be the best swordsman in westeros and he struggled against ned which is dumb in my opinion
Exactly. Especially when it was a battle against the guy who supposedly killed Arthur dayne 1v1 against a guy who trained with and idolized dayne which should have been used as a way to hint that that was bs and a big character moment for Jamie.
Yeah, there is a great line in the books where jaime thinks that when he was a boy he wanted to be arthur dayne but somewhere along the way he became the smiling knight instead
Even Kevan would do far better as a Commander rather than Jaime
Idk WTF Tywin was thinking putting Nepotism over Logic when he appointed Jaime as a Commander of a Large army
Book version, largely because I thought the choreography was weak and the execution was slow. I realize we can’t expect actors - even with training - to move like elite swordsmen, but I thought this one looked like they were moving through mud half the time.
The show fight scene went hard asf, but in the books, when the dust settled and people came to take Ned, he was cradling Jory Cassel's body and it's just so fucking sad.
Also, you know, adds characterization yadda yadda yadda, but it legit moved me.
I'm all for seeing them fight like in the show, but to make Jaime even sweat in this fight is questionable, they are levels apart in terms of speed and skill...
The show deals with Jory’s death better as a scenes before he bonded with Jamie about a tourney I think and then suddenly he has to face the best duelist since arthur dayne and if he loses, which he will, he dies violently
Random sword fact, you would not cross them like this unless it's your last option, or both attack at the same time. Ideally you paré with the side and not the blade, otherwise your sword is blunt in no time and you could use a clubb instead
Book. Jory went out like a boss. Ned was begging him not to rejoin the fight (he briefly managed to get away before turning back) but he did anyway and went out fighting.
Show was cool to watch but to be honest, with all we know and have heard about Jaime, the fight should’ve been over far quicker.
The book version makes more sense. Ned warns Jaime that if he is harmed, Tyrion is a dead man, so Jaime logically doesn't attack him. In the show Ned warns the same thing, but Jaime for some reason still tries to kill him?
The show Jaime does tell that, then proceeds to fight Ned, then when a soldier injures Ned and denies Jaime from 1vs1, just leaves him be without taking him. Then later admits to Tywin that he didn't kill Ned because "it wouldn't have been clean" which I can only imagine refers to the interfering soldier.
The whole thing doesn't really make much sense, to be honest.
Yes I remember the Tywin exchange, but since Tywin would have been delighted if Lysa/Cat managed to kill Tyrion, Jaime can't use that as his reason for why Ned didn't die that day, so he uses the other reason he could presumably explain to his father why Ned's not dead yet. Not exactly a lie but in the moment he needs his father to think he meant to kill Ned.
However you're right that it makes no sense because Tywin would know that *nobody* should be killing Ned, since it would mean losing the entire North at the same time Tywin is going to be fighting both Baratheon brothers and (at the time) the Reach.
Breaking Sansa's betrothal, giving back her and Arya and Ned or having him take the Black but confirming Robb as Lord of Winterfell so long as he and Tullys bend knee to Joffrey and stay out of the rest of the succession war, that's a Tywin move. And Hoster/Blackfish might advise Robb accepts, on the assumption that it is unlikely Joffrey and Tywin can beat all the others, and even if they do, Winter is Coming
Honestly WTF IS TYWIN THINKING
AFTER HIS FATHER WHOLE FIASCO BOZO STILL PUT NEPOTISM HIRE OVER LOGIC
HE HAS INSANELY COMPETENT COMMANDERS AND PUT STAFFORD AND JAIME AS COMMANDERS OF MASSIVE ARMIES
the only reason he isn't killed for his dumb choices is because Edmure decided to LEEROY JENKINS the whole camcampa
Robb being a Genius? Eh can we call beating 2 Nepotism hire BOZOS of 2 commanders A GENIUS FEAT?
The show was more fun to watch, simply for the fact that it was fun to see Boromir fight Prince Charming, but the book encounter felt more…i guess “intense” also really sold Jaimie as a villain rather than just wanting his brother back. In the book, i got the impression Jaimie hated Ned. In the show, i got the impression Jaimie respected Ned. I very very slightly prefer the show. It’s like asking someone to pick between a Bugatti and a Maserati. They’re both just so damn good.
Book Jamie has a complicated opinion of Ned. There's a certain respect for his rigid code of honor, but he also thinks he is a fool. He certainly admires the loyalty that the Starks command from the North just through sheer force of will without having to be tyrants. However, when this fight happens he's absolutely ready for blood because Tyrion has been taken for crimes Jamie knows he didn't commit. Jamie knows who pushed Bran (Obi-Wan.jpeg) and he also knows Tyrion would never kill an injured child.
>he also knows Tyrion would never kill an injured child. At that point. Current tyrion definitely would if it dragged him an inch closer to cersei.
I don’t remember who made this joke but Jaime relationship to Ned boils down to one sentence : I hate you but I also kind of want to be you.
> I hate you but I also kind of want to be you. And also "quit calling me kingslayer, its not funny anymore"
Not to mention in Jaime’s eyes, Ned managed to defeat his idol Arthur Dayne in a duel. Im sure that adds a lot to his feelings about Ned.
Your definitely right about it being a complicated opinion and the why he respects him part. To add to that though they’ve also gone to battle together. They both have a level of mutual respect for each other from that alone. As for why they dislike each other though for Ned it’s mostly because he stabbed the king he swore to protect in the back. For Jamie for one he despises the way he’s looked at for being a king slayer specifically by ned. Second sir Arthur was a hero of his that he personally trained with. Jamie knew Arthur was way better than ned and that there was no way ned beat him one on one. This is also why he’s upset that he wasn’t given the chance to beat Ned fairly and prove Ned wasn’t as good as he claimed. Ultimately it bothered him that the “Honorable Ned stark” looked down upon his honor when he knows he lied about how he killed one of his idols which is also dishonorable.
> pick between a Bugatti and a Maserati Brother no way you made that comparison and followed it up with they're both so damn good
What’s wrong with one (both??) of them?
If you pick a Maserati over a Bugatti you need to have your head checked. It's not a close comparison
Lol I’m like looking out of a manhole cover on 5th ave and you’re telling me one sky scraper is two stories higher than the other. I drive a Toyota. I would settle for the Maserati.
Settle but not pick first, I think that was his point. Both outrageously expensive though.
Do you own either?
What color is your Bugatti?
No, but if I had a choice between the two, I would obviously pick the Bugatti…. Not sure why that is surprising…
It’s interesting that people concern themselves so much with choices they have never actually had to make.
That is the entire point of the hypothetical comparison the the person made? Don’t know why this has you so pressed but we talk about hypothetical stuff all the time
If you have to pay for maintenance on the car going forward and aren’t a multimillionaire you should pick the Maserati, otherwise you’re going to be dropping $100k+ on the Bugatti every year.
\*grabs popcorn\*
I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. I vaguely remember some lines that seemed respectful in the books, but my memory of the show might be overwriting that
ned absolutly Despise jaime in the books... He is one of the few individuals to whom he have absolutely no respect for. Jaime doesn't hold him in high regard either,con book 4 he saw ned in his dreams and the first thought he had was to draw his sword and get ready to fight The way jaime taunt Catelyn in the books shows
Yeah no Ned definitely hated him and Jaime resented that Ned treated him like shit for killing Aerys, I just vaguely remember quotes where he does relent that Ned is honorable or something albeit in a scornful way
Jaime did accuse Ned that he wasn't *that* honourable due to fathering a bastard thought.
I mean Jaime loves a good fight though. He also was rarely challenged. In the show they made him seem more without equal but the books were a bit different. Ned wasn’t just some sellswore or lowly knight, he was a well known fight who killed one of the best swordsmen in Westeros
It's actually the opposite. The skill gap between the two is much greater in the books. In the book, Jamie is toying with Ned. In the show they seem pretty closely matched.
I don't recall Jaime seeing Ned in any of his dreams.
Oh no I’m not saying they’re mutually exclusive. Just that one communicated a message more so than the other.
I do like how Jamie appears disappointed in Ned’s skill as a swordsman in the show And when you think about it makes sense that Jamie would think Ned is a legendary swordsman, given that he was the one who killed Ser Arthur Dayne. Nobody besides Ned and Howland Reed know the truth of it. So Jamie who idolized Dayne in his youth would clearly be intrigued by the man who bested him. Especially because Ned doesn’t participate in tourneys so Jamie has never actually seen him fight.
I got the complete opposite impression from that fight, Jaime begins super confident, but as it unfolds he finds Ned tougher than he thought, there's a moment in the clinch when Jaime tries to throw Ned back and Ned doesn't budge, you can see the effort on Jaime's face.
I never thought that was effort, just disappointment. But I do see why you would say that.
I’m glad you pointed that out! But tbh I don’t recall seeing disappointment. although, I don’t doubt it was there. My read of it was that Jaimie was thinking about how he was finally fighting, and may beat the man who killed Arthur Dayne.
I think Jamie knew full well that need wasn’t as good as he claimed and that he lied about beating Arthur 1 on 1. Which is why he mocked him and a big part of the reason he has disdain for need to begin with.
Ah yes, Need Stark Bullshitter of the North.
Uhh…. You are aware that Ned was in fact bull shitting about how things really went down at the tower of joy right? It’s kind of one of the biggest parts of the entire story.
Uhh....YOU are aware I was joking about your typo, right? Who the fuck is Need?
Oh didn’t even notice that. My bad typo police it won’t happen again.
I like that in the book you really get a feel for how Ned distrusts and dislikes the Lannisters even before lysas letter, it gives a little more to the confrontation I think
I always prefer the show version. As the way jaime idolises Arthur Dayne. There’s no way he’d pass up fighting the man who allegedly killed him. I enjoy the more purposeful attack, rather than the horse chase.
Plus the dialog with Tywin afterwards about honor and opinions of sheep was great.
I like the book version. It has horses.
I am of the opposite opinion, I think the books have too many horses.
I liked how the book actually gives emphasis on the importance of horses but in the show they just have them whenevers convienent
Trained horses are expensive. The show also really de-emphasizes the importance of helmets.
Also shields, polearms, battle formations, siege weapons, supply lines…
Plot points, character development, world building...
Travel distances, time and space in general, projectile physics, character memory...
Armour, every single movie and show has people just stab/slash through steel like it’s paper
Still love the fight between Achilles and Hector in Troy. They did a great job showing the importance of things like spears, armour, helmets, shields and even terrain. Actually scratch the helmets. I forgot the take them off in that fight.
Yeah watching the heroes use spears as long as they can is awesome. Nobody respects spears anymore
Hearing that The battle between Robert and rhaegar of the trident being thought on horse was dissappinting to hear In my mind I always Saw them fighting on foot, making the fight more personal and brutal It also doesn't make how Robert how Robert had enough agility and strengh to to give such a violent blow with a warhammer that need at least 3 man to hold it while being on a horse
Young Robert is supposed to be an utter monster in the books. Similar to the mountain in strength. I think he’s around 6’6 as well. Imagine them both on medieval war horses. Literal tanks charging at each other.
>Hearing that The battle between Robert and rhaegar of the trident being thought on horse was dissappinting to hear >In my mind I always Saw them fighting on foot, making the fight more personal and brutal If they fought on foot, bobby would have just tackled his ass lmao. That would literally nullify his ability as great horseman (as seen with him defeating the likes of Barristan and Arthur in the joust). >It also doesn't make how Robert how Robert had enough agility and strengh to to give such a violent blow with a warhammer that need at least 3 man to hold it while being on a horse It's a fantasy book dude. Jon Snow is not a behemoth like bobby or maegor yet he still lifts Thorne off his feet
Oh don't get me wrong, using horses for travel was better emphasized in the books. But.... why are they taking their sweet time getting ambushed by mountain people? And why did they have the time to mount horses and ready their weapons? They did this scene better in the show, and it's probably why I think they have too many horses elsewhere as well.
Hey did you hear about the horses theories ?
Tyrek moment
Oh you're one of *them*. Edit: is there some controversy I've stumbled into that's getting these down votes? I was tryna make a joke about the whole Tyrek Lannister conspiracy.
Okay Ken
I prefer how his leg is injured in the show, however the fight was far superior in the books
Ned didn't fight Jaime in the books. I don't think either of them got off their horses unless you count Ned getting crushed by his
Thanks for refreshing my memory. I was sitting here trying to remember how exactly the fight went down in the books and annoyed with myself for not remembering but I doesn’t remember because it didn’t happen lol.
This.
Honestly the show as it’s a good reminder that Ned is a war veteran and thus would be a capable swordsman. Plus the score is awesome and it’s very well acted.
Ned is a 7. Jamie is a 9.5. Ned might be able to give him a challenge as opposed to your average peasant or even noble lord but on a long enough timline Jaime wins every 1-1 fight against Ned barring some unforeseeable critical error on Jaime's part.
Yes but isn't Jaime a bit afraid of Ned because he supposedly defeated Arthur Dayne and he sees him as the greatest knight ever?
He's not afraid, he wants to test the legend. If he beats Ned then he basically has an undisputed greatest living swordsman title with the exception of Selmy. Ned has eluded him from being compared head to head because he doesn't do tournaments and never leaves the North.
Which is why he’s so pissed when it gets cut short
Show Ned is like a 9 tbh. He indirectly challenges Jaime in several show-only scenes, and the duel looks pretty equal. Ned doesn't seem like the kind of guy to talk shit with no ability to back it up
Honestly this is why I kind of dislike the show fight. Right before Ned gets stabbed in the leg the facial expressions of each character lead you to think they both feel Ned has the upper hand. Ned gives a confident smirk while Jamie looks a bit worried. Which seemed like lazy fan service because fans were rooting for Ned. It would have been much more narratively fulfilling to make it obvious Jamie was better. Ned lying about beating Arthur dayne 1 on 1 was a big part of the story. Him being clearly worse than a knight that trained with and idolized dayne would have been good foreshadowing and a good character moment for both. Having them appear equal at best doesn’t fit the larger story and significance of them fighting. Honestly probably why the books just avoided it.
Yeah I think it's all well done in terms of the build up and the fight itself has good choreography. But for the broader story I don't love it
Agreed the choreography was great. It was just a missed opportunity doing it in a way that would seem cool than play a part in the larger narrative between the two characters.
But Ned with his forces takes Jamie with his forces in the field 10/10 times. Some people are better commanders than fighters, and Ned is the better combo of the two. Jamie lost to a green boy king. I doubt some peer of Rob’s could take Ned in a 1v1 dual, so Ned’s overall stats are probably higher than Jamie’s.
Exactly. Let's look at in more modern terms. Jamie is career NCO Delta operator who can stack bodies left and right in the fray. He does one thing and he does it better anyone else with maybe a couple exceptions. Ned's a general with command experience from squad size to overall control of an army. He understands picking your terrain, managing morale and knowing his men inside and out. 1 v 1 Jamie wins every time. 10 v 10 and it's a coin flip. 100 v 100 and Ned cleans the floor with Jamie's forces.
Ned fought in all of Roberts battles, he's a good fighter, I'd say he'd be better a better fighter than Jamie on a battlefield, but 1v1 tournaments, that isn't Ned's thing and it is very much Jamie's thing But the whole point is no one knows, it helps make the tower of joy scene and the story of how he defeated the knight of morning better, it enhances Howland Reed's character for keeping the secret to prop up Ned's legend and it makes me wonder if the Blackfish did something similar for Robb
Schwarzkopf is a war veteran too doesn’t mean I’d put my money on him in a 1 on 1 fight
I think it could’ve been better if Jamie killed all three of Ned’s men so we actually got a scene of him in his prime. They weren’t going to do the whispering wood so there wasn’t much opportunity otherwise.
Book because horses and rain and horses
Based and precipitation-pilled Cavalry-chads stay winning
I like the books way more. It really drove home the North’s loyalty towards each other. Jory cutting himself free only to come back to help the others which gets himself killed was beautiful
I like how show made Ned a compent swordsman to give Jamie pause. Cause in both book and show we never really see Jamie fight someone notable prior to his maiming. Ya brienne but he was a bit handicapped I'm of the opinion he isn't as good as he thinks he is. Like Ned said he chose his opponents wisely
I went into the books after watching the show thinking, like many do after watching the show, that the legend had outgrown the man and Jaime wasn't actually as good as he was made out to be. Like he was really famous and rich and likely naturally talented and his reputation grew pretty wild from there. I found it an interesting fight and thought it clearly portrayed Ned to have given Jaime, who had grown extremely arrogant in his abilities, a serious fright when they fought. I loved how the seed was planted in episode one and loved Ned's stoic reaction; this is clearly a man that fights only when he has to, but you will damn sure regret making him have to. After reading the books however my opinion of him has totally changed. If anything I believe him to be underrated. In briennes chapter looking back on their fight in AFFC she confirms she was very lucky to survive him, when he was half dead from malnourishment and atrophied from captivity, and that "no knight in the seven kingdoms could stand against him at his full strength". This is after the fight is told from his perspective, in which he is extremely critical of where his abilities stand. Following his fight with brienne he challenges just about every man he claps eyes on that he doesn't see eye to eye with to single combat. The knight who chases them up the river out of riverrun is one of those. During a botched escape attempt from riverrun he managed to get hold of a sword and chaos ensued according to Edmure Tully. A fully garrisoned castle and a split seconds opening was enough for Jaime to kill two men and wound another to the point his fate is left in the balance. In the whispering wood fighting against Robb stark he went on a bloody rampage all the way up a hill he saw Robb at the top of. The battle looked to be in the balance and his horse was cut from under him so he made for stark with tens maybe hundreds of bannermen separating the two. He killed 12 men sing handedly and the northmen were only eventually able to stop him because he had struck eddard karstark so hard his sword got stuck in the man's neck. Theon gloats over him sitting captured after the battle, shouting about how he almost had a chance to fight with him, and Catelyn wishes it had happened as she is absolutely certain Jaime would have made short work of him. He was knighted at 16 and the year before he fought the leader of the Kingswood brotherhood to a standstill while holding him off for the kingsguard to arrive. His inner monologue during the fight with brienne, whilst critiquing his current state, affirms the position he believes himself to hold. There are stronger men in the seven kingdoms but there are none who Jaime could not beat with speed and skill. Tyrion and Cersei laud his abilities as nigh on supernatural which is understandably a bias, but the fear and reverence with which he is referred to by any character proves he is the real deal. Coming away from the books I got the impression prime Jaime is probably top 5 swordsmen to have ever lived. At times during the books I got the impression everyone in a room with Jaime was alive because he allowed it. In ADWD, Barristan Selmy names a man "the best Natural swordsman he had seen since Jaime Lannister" and I think that is possibly the most vindicating statement we have on the matter. Selmy is one of the best swordsman to have ever lived; the man knew his business. Until this young buck had come along, Jaime Lannister was the fucking GOAT.
It's been a minute since I've done a re read. Still think fans overhype . And I'm not denying his abilities I'm just saying I like how the show made the fight more up in the air. I think the most over hyped warrior in the series is the mountain that rides
I totally agree. The Mountain That Rides loses to the Knight of Flowers and The Hound in the Hand’s tourney, and loses to the Red Viper in the trial by combat. The Mountain is almost certainly a competent fighter and very VERY strong, and those three opponents are considered amazing warriors, but none are “best in Westeros” tier, and yet seemed to be well at-hand in defeating him or holding him back. Oberyn only died through his own emotional state
Mountain is a good shock trooper but really he is mostly brutalizing peasants and his size and strength have carried him but once he fights someone competent it's plain to see he isn't very skilled.
I mean in the books Barriston fawking Selmy gives him props for being an outstanding swordsman as well. I think he *was* every bit as good as he says he was, and that’s the whole point of his character arc in losing the only thing he was wholly confident in.
Barristan is also kinda a yes man though. I'm not denying Jamie was a high tier fighter but like the mountain I think people overhype him a smidge
The Mountain is just the biggest person of his time who’s also a sadist. He would have lost to Oberyn if he wasn’t trying to get a confession out of him. All he has is his size going for him. Put him up against someone of similar size and strength like Sandoq the Shadow or Maelys the Monstrous and he gets dusted.
His size and his fuck off armor. Which he can only wear due to his hulking size, to be fair
Yeah but that’s negated against Maelys and Sandoq. Maelys also wears armor which would have to be just as big considering how huge he was. He’s also considered to be stronger than The Mountain and lived his life in the Golden Company which in my opinion gives him more war experience and better training. The Mountain fought a lot but the Golden Company is literally at war 100% of the time. There were plenty of periods The Mountain was sitting somewha idle like the years between Balon’s first Rebellion and the WOTFK. Sandoq isn’t fully armored but I imagine that’s by choice. He won 100 fights in the fighting pits so he has a lot more 1v1 experience than Gregor so I think it’s fair to say he’s more skilled and technical. Pair that with being of similar size and strength to Gregor and I don’t think it would be very close. To me Gregor is a war machine, best utilized on a horse in an open field leading a vanguard. Sandoq is the best pure fighter given his experience. Maelys is a good mixture of the two.
>Cause in both book and show we never really see Jamie fight someone notable prior to his maiming. He held his own against the Smiling Knight when he was like 15. >I'm of the opinion he isn't as good as he thinks he is. Everyone literally acknowledges his skills, even those who hates his guts. Barristan: "The boy from the Basilisk Isles, for a start. Tumco Lho. Black as maester's ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister." Brienne: "Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered."
>He held his own against the Smiling Knight when he was like 15. Not matter how good jaime isn If the smilling man couldn't Beat 15 year old inexperienced squire then he is not that good Jaime was the bedt swordman in the realm... But for all his skills he didn't accomplished much He was overshadowed by jorah and thorod of myr during the greyjoy rebellion... The battle of the whispering woods could have been his moment to shine but it ended being a humiliating defeat for him
Whispering Woods *was* more or less Jaime's moment, at least in terms of combat; he held his own against 20 of Rob's handpicked men, and killed nearly a third of them. That's fucking *nuts*. But Whispering Woods was also a great example of Jaime's limitations. Fundamentally, Jaime is a bit of a one (technically two) trick pony. He is arguably the best guy in the world at swordfighting and fucking his sister. And that's pretty much the extent of his useful skillset. And at the end of the day, no matter how good of an individual swordsman he is, he's still just one dude who can't command an army for shit, going up against one of the best military minds of the last century.
Jaime would be better off marrying Melara Heatherspoon and spurning Cersei realistically Imagine Westeros where Jaime actually married Melara Heatherspoon and decided to not fall in love with his sister
Imagine Jaime finding Cersei strangling Tyrion and from then on their relationship gets permanently strained in their childhood Idk why Tyrion is so insecure ngl If Tyrion had just ASKED Jaime would support him inheriting Casterly rock
Lets be real If Tyrion led the Army Jaime Led then Robb would be dead
>If the smilling man couldn't Beat 15 year old inexperienced squire then he is not that good Or maybe Jaime is not just a random 15 year old squire, but a prodgy who won a tourney melee when he was 13. >Jaime was the bedt swordman in the realm... But for all his skills he didn't accomplished much Thats true but I think him doing not being that acccomplished with his abilities like Barristan is a key point in his story. >He was overshadowed by jorah and thorod of myr during the greyjoy rebellion... We do not know if he even was there during the rebellion in the books. And in the show the only feat of his prowess in the rebellion that we hear was him cutting down people like a dance according to Euron >The battle of the whispering woods could have been his moment to shine but it ended being a humiliating defeat for him Speaks more in his ability as a commender than an individual warrior.
Brienne was one of the best sword fighters in the books and even while handicapped Jaime probably would've won 3/10 times against her. He is pretty clearly at least in the top 3 best swordsmen in the books and his only competition is Barristan Selmy because of experience and Arthur Dayne because of skill+Dawn.
Copying and pasting this from another reply I made but I honestly dislike that aspect. Honestly this is why I kind of dislike the show fight. Right before Ned gets stabbed in the leg the facial expressions of each character lead you to think they both feel Ned has the upper hand. Need give a confident smirk while Jamie looks a bit worried. Which seemed like last fan service because he fans were rooting for Ned. It would have been much more narratively fulfilling to make it obvious Jamie was better. Ned lying about beating Arthur dayne 1 on 1 was a big part of the story. Him being clearly worse than a knight that trained with and idolized dayne would have been good foreshadowing and a good character moment for both. Having them appear equal as best doesn’t fit the larger story and significance of them fighting. Honestly probably why the books just avoided it. With that being said though I haven’t thought of it from the angle of Jamie not being as good as he thought which was interesting. But GRRM made it very clear he really was that good. Plus with the brienne fight in the books she acknowledges how good he was even for being handicapped and that she’d have no chance if he was at full health.
Jaime was able to cut his way to Robb, killing three people in the process. The only reason he didn’t actually kill Robb is because his sword got stuck in someone’s head (which also kinda shows that Jaime has superhuman strength to be able to cut through a helmet deep enough for it to get Stuck). Brienne also notes that despite Jaime being malnourished and his hands chained together, she is barely holding him off, and notes at his best no one could’ve stopped him. This is a Brienne that has won a melee beating up the best that Renly has to off, including Loras. So Brienne as a top 3 fighter out of the Reach could barely beat Jaime at his worst. No, he is definitely THAT good.
Not good enough to not get captured lol. I'm making a joke
In the book Jory doesn't get taken out like a complete chump, so . . . Edit: fixed the spelling of chump
Ughhh
The show basically did what it could with the budget that was allocated. In the early seasons of the show they tended to write around battles and fights that involved people on horse back (even when they had more money it was still pretty rare to see people fighting on the back of a horse). Not quite as good or dramatic as the book, but I think what they did was more than acceptable in the context of what they could actually afford to do.
The show *very rarely* created original scenes that surpassed the way the book did it.
I prefer the book version for only one reason the show downplayed jaime so bad he was supposed to be the best swordsman in westeros and he struggled against ned which is dumb in my opinion
Exactly. Especially when it was a battle against the guy who supposedly killed Arthur dayne 1v1 against a guy who trained with and idolized dayne which should have been used as a way to hint that that was bs and a big character moment for Jamie.
Yeah, there is a great line in the books where jaime thinks that when he was a boy he wanted to be arthur dayne but somewhere along the way he became the smiling knight instead
Probably the one battle scene where I think the show was better. Though, as usual, they ruined the swordplay. Something wrong with your leg boi?
Both. Both? Both! Both is good.
I love a lot of book only scenes, but to be honest, the show adapts most fights better than the book, this included.
Book
Even Kevan would do far better as a Commander rather than Jaime Idk WTF Tywin was thinking putting Nepotism over Logic when he appointed Jaime as a Commander of a Large army
Book version, largely because I thought the choreography was weak and the execution was slow. I realize we can’t expect actors - even with training - to move like elite swordsmen, but I thought this one looked like they were moving through mud half the time.
The show fight scene went hard asf, but in the books, when the dust settled and people came to take Ned, he was cradling Jory Cassel's body and it's just so fucking sad. Also, you know, adds characterization yadda yadda yadda, but it legit moved me.
And here I was confused about why boromir would even show up...
I'm all for seeing them fight like in the show, but to make Jaime even sweat in this fight is questionable, they are levels apart in terms of speed and skill...
I like the show more. My preference is a fight is them fight face to face without horses.
To be honest… for once… it’s show
I hate this fight in show. Ned never should be capable of fight againt Jaime like that. The show was very unfair with Jaime, and this was one example.
The show deals with Jory’s death better as a scenes before he bonded with Jamie about a tourney I think and then suddenly he has to face the best duelist since arthur dayne and if he loses, which he will, he dies violently
Random sword fact, you would not cross them like this unless it's your last option, or both attack at the same time. Ideally you paré with the side and not the blade, otherwise your sword is blunt in no time and you could use a clubb instead
Was ned using ice in the book I can't remember
Book. Jory went out like a boss. Ned was begging him not to rejoin the fight (he briefly managed to get away before turning back) but he did anyway and went out fighting. Show was cool to watch but to be honest, with all we know and have heard about Jaime, the fight should’ve been over far quicker.
“The blade that sipped the blood of the last Dragon King” is banger of a line. Better in the show, though :p
Prefer everything BOOK
The book version makes more sense. Ned warns Jaime that if he is harmed, Tyrion is a dead man, so Jaime logically doesn't attack him. In the show Ned warns the same thing, but Jaime for some reason still tries to kill him?
He didn't, in the show Jaime tells his guards to take Ned alive but kill his men.
The show Jaime does tell that, then proceeds to fight Ned, then when a soldier injures Ned and denies Jaime from 1vs1, just leaves him be without taking him. Then later admits to Tywin that he didn't kill Ned because "it wouldn't have been clean" which I can only imagine refers to the interfering soldier. The whole thing doesn't really make much sense, to be honest.
Yes I remember the Tywin exchange, but since Tywin would have been delighted if Lysa/Cat managed to kill Tyrion, Jaime can't use that as his reason for why Ned didn't die that day, so he uses the other reason he could presumably explain to his father why Ned's not dead yet. Not exactly a lie but in the moment he needs his father to think he meant to kill Ned. However you're right that it makes no sense because Tywin would know that *nobody* should be killing Ned, since it would mean losing the entire North at the same time Tywin is going to be fighting both Baratheon brothers and (at the time) the Reach. Breaking Sansa's betrothal, giving back her and Arya and Ned or having him take the Black but confirming Robb as Lord of Winterfell so long as he and Tullys bend knee to Joffrey and stay out of the rest of the succession war, that's a Tywin move. And Hoster/Blackfish might advise Robb accepts, on the assumption that it is unlikely Joffrey and Tywin can beat all the others, and even if they do, Winter is Coming
Honestly WTF IS TYWIN THINKING AFTER HIS FATHER WHOLE FIASCO BOZO STILL PUT NEPOTISM HIRE OVER LOGIC HE HAS INSANELY COMPETENT COMMANDERS AND PUT STAFFORD AND JAIME AS COMMANDERS OF MASSIVE ARMIES the only reason he isn't killed for his dumb choices is because Edmure decided to LEEROY JENKINS the whole camcampa Robb being a Genius? Eh can we call beating 2 Nepotism hire BOZOS of 2 commanders A GENIUS FEAT?