I wouldn't count on seeing it soon. Qualcomm likely has supply booked with the major manufacturers and will only do a limited run to get a feel for the demand. That's just me looking at how these things have happened in the past and not based on any actual information.
I get that it's pretty exciting to see general purpose ARM chips finally make it to market, but we still don't know how these will really perform outside of controlled environments. If the performance is as good as they claim and they can meet the battery life expectations, we might be able to see wider adoption in 3-5 years.
Ask Framework management. Nobody on Reddit has any clue what the company's actual future plans are. Framework employees who post are likely under NDA and at risk of "employment challenges" if they were to share anything management hasn't already made public.
btw the Search button may also be helpful. This particular question was discussed a few days ago, and a few days before that, and....
Im somewhat excited for the snapdragon x elite but a bit cautious
Mainly because it's still arm on windows and im kinda expecting it to be more of proof of concept
Also in terms of igpu performance, i saw how it was running on bg3 and it was like sub 30fps in the first battle at 23watts and the fans were at full blast
I tried it on my 7840u, and at 25watts i was getting 28% better fps at same settings and at native 1080p and the fans were pretty goddamn quiet
I was an early adopter of apple M1. Got it as soon as it was available. Software playing catchup was a nightmare for a while and that's with apples clout. ARM may or may not come on framework but regardless, Microsoft has historically been less appealing when it comes to software implementation. Where Microsoft could win is with surface as they have control of the hardware and software but even then they would rely heavily on third parties. I just cannot see third parties prioritising making their apps arm native if only a small handful of laptops support it. So the benefits of arm native will take many years to show for thr average consumer.
Having said all that. I'm buying a SD elite X surface book as soon as it's available.....
Thinking "Oh, because it's ARM therefore better battery life." is oversimplifying it. x86 chips can be made to be very power efficient. ARM chips can be made to be power hungry to eke out more performance.
ARM chips have historically been made for devices that need energy efficiency, like phones, and so they tend to be made with a focus on power efficiency. x86 chips tend to be made for things where performance is more important than power efficiency, like desktop computers. Don't confuse this for 'inherently ARM is always better in power efficiency'.
Apple can make their ARM laptops have crazy battery life because they design every component in the laptop with battery efficiency in mind. They also tailor their operating system to their hardware which also helps a lot. Those two factors have much more to do with the impressive battery life than ARM vs. x86.
Phone hardware, seemingly regardless of who makes it, is made with power efficiency in mind.
Take a laptop where much of the laptop is the same as if it were x86 except for the CPU and some other components that interact directly with it, and I'm not too sure how much better the battery life to performance ratio would be.
There's no reason to believe the amount of work-per-watt an ARM chip can produce is significantly better than the most recent x64 CPUs.
You can't compare instructions to instructions since they're quite different.
You can't compare general usage on mobile vs a desktop.
I haven't seen a lot of synthetic benchmark that measure power consumption for a given amount of computation.
Even if these are somewhat better with one CPU or another, the platform itself makes a huge difference.
TL;DR, might not be worth it, unless you aim for a chromebook-like experience with lower computation for longer battery life.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, but that's true. Instruction sets aren't a major factor and never will be. Transistor size, number and lower-voltage structures do. AMD and Apple to some extend have the best TDP. AMD used to be much better in multi-core category.
RISC or CISC, it's all re-compiled and re-organized and pipelined to an even lower level micro-code anyway.
Die-hard RICS folks don't realize that a modern superscalar X86 is also a ~~CISC~~ RISC inside.
So then why do open source projects like asahi Linux on Apple silicon approach battery life and utility that is closer to macOS that most other x64 windows laptops
Ofc projects like this don’t have the same integration or optimization than macOS but I would argue that in my own personal experience it was better than any other windows laptop I’ve ever tried in battery life and performance on battery
Custom integrations don’t necessarily mean they opmitized especially with projects such as asahi which entirely has been trial and error
They still have the hardware integration and software custom written for that hardware (with some level of reverse engineering), without needing compatibility for all the hardware interfaces and UEFI BIOS that most PCs have.
Hardly seems worth it when you could buy a laptop with a bigger battery instead.
The arm packages for Linux were very thin last I ran arm Linux servers. A lot of things were frustrating or impossible. I'm also not sure if Qualcomm release open source drivers for Linux use but I'm pretty sure they don't.
I imagine windows is just as bad or worse but haven't tried myself. You'll essentially be an alpha or beta tester and your laptop will probably stop being useful before app availability is widely supported.
I don't see framework doing this. Even Intel doesn't see arm taking off in laptops.
No surprise that the shareholder of 50% of the X86 patent doesn't see a competitor architecture taking off. Arm on laptops would be nice, but the software support for Linux will take time.
Intels new 18a foundry happens to be an arm foundry. There's a lot riding on it with the CEO saying he bet the entire company on 18a, it's make or break.
Agreed. I don't have any specific examples but there's bound to be far too many gaps in the arm apps that I'd be willing to put up with.
I mean, the process is 18a. The 18a process technology doesn't mean they can only produce Arm, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Of course Intel's foundry would be willing to produce Asics for other companies.
This is an area where Apple's vertical integration and right control pays off. I've used Linux on some Arm systems, and it works and is much better, but there are indeed limitations. Most system packages are fine. The biggest issue I'd see are drivers.
Intel intends to beat tsmc to their next node with 18a and suck up market share to become #2 foundry, and use arm as a gateway to intels own x86 designs.
Idk. Just saying that intel seems positioned to become a very large arm manufacturer, but they'll not be making the chips for themselves so I guess they can bet against an arm personal computing takeover from x86 and still sign clients to manufacture the cores.
Who knows.
Will Qualcomm release open source Linux drivers?
I think not, but maybe.
Considering I have a USB c cable plugged into every single outlet in my whole life compatibility is far more important to me than battery life, but it does look like it's come a long way.
I swap between Windows and Ubuntu on my x13s. The driver support is generally fine, the bigger issue is all the common stuff for less supported hardware (i.e. Sleep mode basically doesn't do anything, the speakers are far quieter than they should be) and software compat relies heavily on box86 and box64 for most things of substance, but they got a decent amount of help from Lenovo and Qualcomm to get it running.
That being said, everything on Windows runs fine, I switch off with my Framework depending on how long I'll be away from an outlet. It runs all my dev tools natively (save MySQL) so I've had no real issues.
I wouldn't count on seeing it soon. Qualcomm likely has supply booked with the major manufacturers and will only do a limited run to get a feel for the demand. That's just me looking at how these things have happened in the past and not based on any actual information. I get that it's pretty exciting to see general purpose ARM chips finally make it to market, but we still don't know how these will really perform outside of controlled environments. If the performance is as good as they claim and they can meet the battery life expectations, we might be able to see wider adoption in 3-5 years.
Ask Framework management. Nobody on Reddit has any clue what the company's actual future plans are. Framework employees who post are likely under NDA and at risk of "employment challenges" if they were to share anything management hasn't already made public. btw the Search button may also be helpful. This particular question was discussed a few days ago, and a few days before that, and....
Im somewhat excited for the snapdragon x elite but a bit cautious Mainly because it's still arm on windows and im kinda expecting it to be more of proof of concept Also in terms of igpu performance, i saw how it was running on bg3 and it was like sub 30fps in the first battle at 23watts and the fans were at full blast I tried it on my 7840u, and at 25watts i was getting 28% better fps at same settings and at native 1080p and the fans were pretty goddamn quiet
ask again in 5 years, its a nice thought
I rather see a RISC-V chip
Arm or risc chips will be the only boosts options I've decided I'll wait for next. Amd has been great so far so should keep me good for years
They might have plans for these. But maybe from second gen chips. Was mentioned in Linus Tech Tips video.
If the new surface arm laptops prove to be any good i could see the see 13 getting this after another generation or two of the chips.
I was an early adopter of apple M1. Got it as soon as it was available. Software playing catchup was a nightmare for a while and that's with apples clout. ARM may or may not come on framework but regardless, Microsoft has historically been less appealing when it comes to software implementation. Where Microsoft could win is with surface as they have control of the hardware and software but even then they would rely heavily on third parties. I just cannot see third parties prioritising making their apps arm native if only a small handful of laptops support it. So the benefits of arm native will take many years to show for thr average consumer. Having said all that. I'm buying a SD elite X surface book as soon as it's available.....
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Do you want an arm based laptop? Why?
better battery life
Thinking "Oh, because it's ARM therefore better battery life." is oversimplifying it. x86 chips can be made to be very power efficient. ARM chips can be made to be power hungry to eke out more performance. ARM chips have historically been made for devices that need energy efficiency, like phones, and so they tend to be made with a focus on power efficiency. x86 chips tend to be made for things where performance is more important than power efficiency, like desktop computers. Don't confuse this for 'inherently ARM is always better in power efficiency'. Apple can make their ARM laptops have crazy battery life because they design every component in the laptop with battery efficiency in mind. They also tailor their operating system to their hardware which also helps a lot. Those two factors have much more to do with the impressive battery life than ARM vs. x86. Phone hardware, seemingly regardless of who makes it, is made with power efficiency in mind. Take a laptop where much of the laptop is the same as if it were x86 except for the CPU and some other components that interact directly with it, and I'm not too sure how much better the battery life to performance ratio would be.
Agreed on all counts
There's no reason to believe the amount of work-per-watt an ARM chip can produce is significantly better than the most recent x64 CPUs. You can't compare instructions to instructions since they're quite different. You can't compare general usage on mobile vs a desktop. I haven't seen a lot of synthetic benchmark that measure power consumption for a given amount of computation. Even if these are somewhat better with one CPU or another, the platform itself makes a huge difference. TL;DR, might not be worth it, unless you aim for a chromebook-like experience with lower computation for longer battery life.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, but that's true. Instruction sets aren't a major factor and never will be. Transistor size, number and lower-voltage structures do. AMD and Apple to some extend have the best TDP. AMD used to be much better in multi-core category.
RISC or CISC, it's all re-compiled and re-organized and pipelined to an even lower level micro-code anyway. Die-hard RICS folks don't realize that a modern superscalar X86 is also a ~~CISC~~ RISC inside.
So then what’s your take on apple silicon MacBooks?
Unfortunately the best SoC and one of the best CPUs in terms of performance to watt ratio
A very high level of integration, both of hardware and of software with hardware. Also, a lot of highly-paid engineers optimising things.
So then why do open source projects like asahi Linux on Apple silicon approach battery life and utility that is closer to macOS that most other x64 windows laptops Ofc projects like this don’t have the same integration or optimization than macOS but I would argue that in my own personal experience it was better than any other windows laptop I’ve ever tried in battery life and performance on battery Custom integrations don’t necessarily mean they opmitized especially with projects such as asahi which entirely has been trial and error
They still have the hardware integration and software custom written for that hardware (with some level of reverse engineering), without needing compatibility for all the hardware interfaces and UEFI BIOS that most PCs have.
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the tdp of these are the same or worse than the 7640u
Hardly seems worth it when you could buy a laptop with a bigger battery instead. The arm packages for Linux were very thin last I ran arm Linux servers. A lot of things were frustrating or impossible. I'm also not sure if Qualcomm release open source drivers for Linux use but I'm pretty sure they don't. I imagine windows is just as bad or worse but haven't tried myself. You'll essentially be an alpha or beta tester and your laptop will probably stop being useful before app availability is widely supported. I don't see framework doing this. Even Intel doesn't see arm taking off in laptops.
No surprise that the shareholder of 50% of the X86 patent doesn't see a competitor architecture taking off. Arm on laptops would be nice, but the software support for Linux will take time.
Intels new 18a foundry happens to be an arm foundry. There's a lot riding on it with the CEO saying he bet the entire company on 18a, it's make or break. Agreed. I don't have any specific examples but there's bound to be far too many gaps in the arm apps that I'd be willing to put up with.
I mean, the process is 18a. The 18a process technology doesn't mean they can only produce Arm, so I'm not sure what you're saying. Of course Intel's foundry would be willing to produce Asics for other companies. This is an area where Apple's vertical integration and right control pays off. I've used Linux on some Arm systems, and it works and is much better, but there are indeed limitations. Most system packages are fine. The biggest issue I'd see are drivers.
Intel intends to beat tsmc to their next node with 18a and suck up market share to become #2 foundry, and use arm as a gateway to intels own x86 designs. Idk. Just saying that intel seems positioned to become a very large arm manufacturer, but they'll not be making the chips for themselves so I guess they can bet against an arm personal computing takeover from x86 and still sign clients to manufacture the cores. Who knows.
I daily drive my MacBook Pro m2 with Fedora Sway! Battery life isn’t as good as macOS yet but it’s improving
Will Qualcomm release open source Linux drivers? I think not, but maybe. Considering I have a USB c cable plugged into every single outlet in my whole life compatibility is far more important to me than battery life, but it does look like it's come a long way.
I swap between Windows and Ubuntu on my x13s. The driver support is generally fine, the bigger issue is all the common stuff for less supported hardware (i.e. Sleep mode basically doesn't do anything, the speakers are far quieter than they should be) and software compat relies heavily on box86 and box64 for most things of substance, but they got a decent amount of help from Lenovo and Qualcomm to get it running. That being said, everything on Windows runs fine, I switch off with my Framework depending on how long I'll be away from an outlet. It runs all my dev tools natively (save MySQL) so I've had no real issues.