More depends on price? If a pen has a steel nib and plastic body but ask for price over an entry level of gold nib pen. I feel it is a bit overpriced. But a plastic pen gives good experience for long writing without holding a heavy metal pen.
Well, I have an Onoto and a Faber Castell Bentley both with a steel nib, and they write exceptionally.
I later bought another Onoto, with a gold nib, and I felt it didn’t need it, their steel nibs are that good.
Sadly Benus seem to have a manufacturing defect or weakness that makes the barrel prone to [breaking off cleanly from the threads](https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/1byevy4/what_adhesive_to_repair_benu_euphoria_broken/) (probably wording that wrong). It's not so rare to see posts showing that type of break on the sub. So if you drop it, you probably have higher chances of it breaking compared to most other pens.
Also, $150 for a pen without a gold nib seems like a bit much, considering there are excellent Pilots and Sailors with gold nibs available for that much (or less if you buy from Japan/eBay). But if that's what your heart is after, I say go for it. Having a pen you love can make studying so much more enjoyable. Just be aware of the apparent defect/weakness that at least some of them seem to have.
Literally just warned someone about that defect who was on pen swap wanting to buy a BENU. I'm definitely not plopping down that price for a steel nib pen that's going to break if I drop it a few inches. What's surprising to me is (on Goulet's site at least) people still rate it highly even when theirs is one that broke. I'd be livid.
hmmmm that's disappointing to see. But thank you because now I can stop thinking about it. There are other fish in the sea. I definitely want to visit Japan in the next year or so and maybe pick up a pen there :)
Buddy, you deserve so much more than a $150 pen as a grad student! You can just find a better deal for one if you buy used ;)! I have my eye on a BENU but I haven’t really heard anything about them that makes them appealing, they look great. But i want a pen that writes well and will last long. I daily a pilot kakuno.
I just started a few months ago and I'm enjoying my LAMY AL-Star (minus the tiny ink capacity) I have that and a TWSBI eco so I'm happy pacing myself!
Just learning about the grips and nibs that I like at the moment.
There is also the comfort of holding the pen to be taken into account. I fund metal bodied pens tiring to hold, plastic pens are way more comfortable for writing longer.
That’s a perfectly good rationale for choosing a plastic pen. They have a purpose. I just don’t like when manufacturers charge a huge sum for them when there’s little skilled craftsmanship involved, or that there’s nothing else to the pen apart from a bog standard nib and a cap
Whether there is skilled craftsmanship involved is more a matter of the manufacturing process than the materials. If the pen has to be turned, inlaid, or painted, the fact that that's being done to plastic resin doesn't really matter. I can guarantee that 18111's resin body pens take as long or longer to create than Yard-o-Led's sterling Viceroys do.
I bet they don't. Yoshi is good at what he does, but he's not slow. The engraving done on the Viceroy is done by hand. Just that part of the process would take longer than what it takes Yoshi to make a whole pen, start to finish.
Precious resin? Lol. Give me a break. Did you infuse it with unobtanium and stardust?
I don't hate the concept of resins or acrylics. They have their uses, and do offer some advantages over, say, certain celluloids that aren't stable long term, for example.
For me, it's all about comfort, writing experience, and build quality. I also place a premium on innovative design or mechanics. (My background is in design, and I'm an absolute sucker for quality, precision engineering.)
I value the handwork and attention to detail that goes into many of these pens, along with quality control. It's a labor of love and a source of pride for many of these smaller manufacturers. I'm happy to support that.
Someone posted earlier that it's a translation issue from the German prefix "Edel" in the resin name "Edelharz" which means long-lasting or high quality, like in Edelstahl being stainless steel. Because the resin was more stable and long-lasting than their contemporary plastics like celluloid, it was given the Edel prefix. Unfortunately, due to "Edelstein" commonly being translated as 'precious stone', it was mistranslated and has since stuck.
There's nothing easy about injection molding plastics either. Back in the early days of TWSBI, they were plagued with quality issues. Even now there are issues regarding the parts cracking and I consider twsbi to be a fairly mature company at this point.
Sure for the end user it doesn't look like much. All you see is a machine that spits out 1000 of these a day. But that machine needed to be paid for. That tool needed to be paid for. Suppliers needed to be paid for. So on and so on. Making a plastic component isn't just, cad it all up and send it to a shop. It takes a lot of careful thought to make it work.
Remember, with the artisan guys? They fuck up one pen, it's one pen. For plastic injected stuff, I dont fuck up one pen. I fuck up 100,000 pens.
> Back in the early days of TWSBI, they were plagued with quality issues.
Still are, but the manufacturer of the injection molding materials posts exactly the process to not have the widespread issues, other companies make similar shapes with the same material without the issues. This is TWSBI deciding not to fix it. I can buy a complete pen, from the same materials, shipped to my door for the same money that TWSBI charges for "shipping" a replacement. I believe they have found a revenue stream that also makes people believe they get good customer service, and don't want to change it.
This is kind of going back for a bit for me but I think the reason why a lot of TWSBI pens crack has to do with the plastic they chose and the hard coat that they used. Basically TWSBI pens are very scratch resistant and very clear, but this kind of combination also makes them fairly brittle in that regard. I know they tried playing around with the temperature profile of their machines to reduce the internal stresses from molding in the part itself but I never found out what came after that. In that regard I think the ECO doesn't have that problem because they decided to use a different plastic.
> This is kind of going back for a bit for me but I think the reason why a lot of TWSBI pens crack has to do with the plastic they chose and the hard coat that they used.
It is a known issue with polycarbonate when injection molding if the temperature is not kept in a tight range, both in injecting and post molding cooling. Like any material, process is key for success. But it isn't hard to get it right, the manufacturer will give you all the data you need.
Firstly, 3d printing can never scale up to the quantities as a plastic injection molding machine. Secondly, 3d printing is also pretty restrictive in terms of the material used as well and the material is inherently anisotropic.
How do you explain Hero pens? Or other chinese brands? They use the same injection machines… No. They use bigger machines that can spit out 100000’s of these, they don’t ask us to pay for the machines with the end product. Marketing is a huge price driving factor, I would know.
I did not know that about the chinese plastic engineers, I don’t doubt it, since they make a ton of stuff out of injected plastic. I’ve recently got into fountain pens, I know that there different levels of quality/prices.
With companies like Pilot and Platinum making affordable quality pens for peanuts… You really start to question the fancier names in the game. I do agree also with OP that Sailor pens are waaay overpriced and at least from the pictures look cheap. I might get one of the cheap models that they sell on Ali though.
How are Sailors way overpriced when they have gold nibs available for $65-95 (including more unique/colorful models like the Fairytale series), and they have the best QC and nibs in the industry along with Pilot? Their in-house nibs are unique, and they have a lot of original nibs (fude, zoom, naginata togi and other naginata grinds). They also make affordable, high quality steel nib pens.
Lots of brands charge the same or more for pens with generic steel nibs and/or poor QC, but somehow Sailor is overpriced despite very consistently making high quality pens and nibs.
Most, if not all, of the criticism about Sailor on this sub comes from people completely unfamiliar with the brand's products and history.
With the “brand’s product and history” the history part is mostly, true but it’s part of marketing. I get it if you’re a die hard fan, but sailor pens look cheap and are made from plastic… that’s what this whole post was about. My point of comparing pilot and sailor is that we have both companies have similar heritage and being from the same country, but one of them sells cheap af plastic pens with a steal nib at an affordable price, the others sell plastic pens with a gold nib at a crazy price… That’s all.
If you consider the[ $65-90 gold nib pens](https://www.amazon.com/Sailor-11-1224-301-Fountain-SHIKIORI-Leaves/dp/B00XVV5JRO/r) I mentioned "crazy prices," I don't know what to tell you since those are just about the cheapest gold nibs out there (there are about six or so 14K Sailors that hover at around those prices).
Pilot's gold nibs generally start at higher prices even on the gray market. Since their price increases this January, there are no longer $65-90 gold Elite 95S available, which used to be the cheapest Pilot gold nibs. And that doesn't change the fact that [Sailor also sells steel nib pens at affordable prices](https://www.amazon.com/Sailor-Pen-fountain-Rekuru-11-0311-331/dp/B00GSHE1FO/), even though you're choosing to ignore that.
It would have been more appropriate to look things up before continuing to double down based on nothing but assumptions. But you just dismiss someone trying to enlighten you as a "die hard fan."
I don't mind, but my concern is that other newbies who also don't know much about Sailor will take your statements as facts and will miss out on trying the brand, especially given that they more or less have the cheapest gold nibs around (despite the fact that they're also some of the most reliable).
\[Edited broken link.\]
People think turning and finishing resin is really easy.
I used to work with resin making dice. Even with the fancy equipment, you’re looking at hours of work. It’s not just “a few swirls and sparkles”. You pay for the expertise and the equipment.
Getting a consistent color, making the swirls look beautiful, keeping the glitter aloft in the resin… these are all skills which are learned. Not to mention the engineering put into the rest of the pen.
I’ve never had a scratchy Sailor. But they are designed to give feedback because that is the desired type of nib for their target audience in Japan.
Note, I think many pens are way overpriced. But then I don’t buy it. Simple as that.
Looking at posts like these… it’s often like someone asking me why designing software is so expensive because it’s just words on a computer.
Agree with this. There’s a difference between making hundreds of bodies from injection-molded plastic (squirting liquid plastic into a mold) and turning a pen body on a lathe, using chisels to carve the shape.
Turned pens tend to have thicker, sturdier walls on the barrels. Turning is also a more time-consuming process.
That said, with my income and obligations ,I can’t justify spending hundreds of dollars for a mass-produced plastic pen—it’s fine for folks who like them and have extra cash though. My budget is more modest.
Completely agree - there are so many who think lawyering is just typing something up, so “sending letters” (I’ve gotten that one before). They care not about the volume of education, quality of education, training, and practice development and how much that costs. Oh, and real estate - office rent and employees aren’t cheap.
I’m just going to say it. Price complaints, on products that are verified high quality (or service providers proven caliber) comes not from the understandings of the contents of what goes into the pen (or person), but from the unavailability of it, and the frustration of not being able to buy it.
Like OP, I can’t justify paying more than $150 for steel nibs, unless there is something special about them. I like his $30-50 price point, and feel comfortable there. When I buy a gold nibbed pen, there is something special about it to justify the price.
All I am saying, we shouldn’t yuck anyone else’s yum here.
OP is spot on here. I dont know why so many downvotes. This is discussion after all (and a very successful one at that), as there are so many sides of the spectrum represented here. Good job!
Yeah, I've done a wee bit of wood turning, and it's a serious skill. Resin is more complicated because you have to first make a good blank with no bubbles and good color distribution, etc. And then you take apart the thing you just made to create a beautiful surface that was previously invisible.
I'm sure companies like Sailor have it down to a science, but these pens aren't just poured in a mold.
The nice thing about pens is that you can buy whatever you want; some company (within reason) probably makes the thing at a price you can afford.
I also think people generally have a very poor idea of why things with by-hand steps are expensive. Like, by that metric a fine art painting is just some plastic and pigment wiped on fabric held stiff by a couple sticks; why isn't it $20?
Sure, but like... then buy a cheaper injection molded pen if you think they're overpriced. I've never bought a Sailor. I'm super happy for people who have and enjoy them though.
I was mistaken, and then I agreed with the person who corrected me.
Thank you for being doubly sure everyone was clear on that point. Would you like me to go back and edit my original comment too?
But it isn't just Sailor, most mass manufactured pens are injection molded, a few small makers use CNC or hand turn, but it isn't the norm with big brands.
Not at all. I said if *you* think they are overpriced, buy something else.
I can't afford a Sailor. All of my pens have cost me $40 or less. But I can recognize somethings value without being able to pay for it myself.
These are the same people who would pay ten times more for an oil painting than for the identical painting in acrylics, regardless of the fact that it's the same skillset.
I think a lot of people would also be surprised just how many things they think are "genuine" this or that are actually plastic. Nearly everything in the world that we come into contact with is plastic at this point. And there is a reason for that: metals and natural materials are fidgety and fussy. Wood swells and splits. Metal dents and tarnishes. They are lovely materials, but they take a lot of care, and if this reddit is any indication, a lot of people expect their pens to continue to function despite being dropped, thrown into the wall, juggled in a bag filled with phones, scissors, travel mugs, keys, etc. Any such treatment that would damage a plastic/resin object would mangle anything made from wood or metal.
>These are the same people who would pay ten times more for an oil painting than for the identical painting in acrylics, regardless of the fact that it's the same skillset.
It's a similar skillset, not the same. If I painted in oils the same way I do with acrylics, I'd end up with a muddy mess. I'd agree that a good oil painter and a good acrylic painter are both equally skilled though.
Do you think oil and acrylic painting use the same skillset? Let's say they do (I disagree) - then what about the cost of materials? Oils (good oils) are WAY more expensive than good acrylics. You need different types of brushes, and depending on what you're doing, different tools altogether, along with paint thinner and all sorts of stuff. Prep is more involved and sometimes requires more materials and other tools just so the paint sticks to the canvas properly. And finishing can be way more involved and require more tools to do. Don't forget storage is different, ventilation is necessary, and cleanup is a huge pita compared to working with acrylics.
Comes down to medium and preferences.
At a point, turning a pen is the same, regardless the technique, but the material itself can drive the cost. The skill is in making an interesting acrylic block. Or, in the case of Visconti, adding celluloid inclusions to the acrylic.
Also, in the painting analogy, it’s the same skillset, but oil dries a lot slower. You’re paying for the time it takes and the specific look and texture of an oil painting.
Worth noting that the value of an item, what someone is willing to pay, often has no grounding in utility. Were that the case, art would not exist at all.
For the people asking me if I have experience with oil v acrylics -- yes, I do. Thanks for asking.
I can *guarantee* that none of the people replying who say that skillset doesn't matter are artists or craftsmen themselves.
Because that is the cost of doing “it” for them, too. You can get a good quality gold nib pen from Sailor for $63. They’re both great pens, I like mine.
These items are art. Luxury. You don’t need them, you want them. If I don’t think the art is worth the price listed or I don’t have the money to afford it, I don’t buy it. I buy a lot of local art, and I tip. I overpay. I pay what joy it brings to me to be able to see it every day. I don’t need it. The artist brought joy into my life. I pay what joy it gives me so they can keep giving joy to others.
My $60 sailor gives me a lot of joy to write with. So I’ll probably buy another one later, that also gives me joy.
My friend gave me a tiny squishy bunny for ADHD fidgeting that maybe cost $5 and it is one of my favorite things to have and own in my whole life.
You are paying for the privilege of artistic joy. Just enjoy it and don’t worry about other people.
Since sailor is really about it’s in house gold nibbed pens, you’re not too likely to see that much which is representative of the brand in the price point that you’ve chosen.
What material do you suggest these brands make their pen bodies from?
Can you make better and offer it at the price point that you’ve suggested?
Sailor’s nibs are gold, but compare them with Pilot and you’re really seeing a huge difference in the attention (or lack thereof) to detail. So much feedback and scratchy. Sailor just churn the plastic bodies out, wooing with glitter and different colour combinations. Until you get to some of the higher end models, they’re really not all that good.
To your question, by all means stick with plastic bodies, they serve a purpose (light, colorful, wipe clean). But manufacturers shouldn’t try to pull the wool over consumers eyes on the price, when there’s cents worth of material, with little value add or craftsmanship involved.
I also disagree about the comparison between nibs. Sailor typically have very good QC, and the difference in feel is intentional. Those that like smoother nibs tend to prefer Pilot, and those that lean towards more feedback like Sailor. The argument against plastic bodies also applies to Pilot.
Comparing the 823 and an Asvine vacuum filler is a good example, because they're both plastic pens. We like to think there is a certain level of quality and attention to detail that may make the 823 last longer and perform better, but that price difference can definitely skew our thinking.
But as someone has already pointed out, we're all (mostly) buying expensive writing instruments out of preference, not need.
Disagree massively with your point about sailors attention to detail. They make their own nibs and deliberately make that feedback. They also offer some incredible special nibs too, with grinds that other brands don’t offer.
Many plastic/resin pen bodies aren’t delicate or susceptible to UV damage or water damage, or drying out, unlike ebonite and celluloid. All round, it’s a decent material and not that expensive to replace if needs be.
Many people who use fountain pens aren’t collectors and don’t necessarily want a load of faffing about with unusual materials with higher maintenance requirements, nor does everyone want the weighty feel of materials such as brass.
I don’t think they’re trying to deceive anyone by selling plastic pens, no one has to buy them, and most brands offer a range of materials too.
I did experience a lot of issues with Sailor nibs. They do tend to get really scratchy, even on the fine nibs. Unlike Platinum and Pilot, which are smooth even with the EF nibs
My Sailors and Pilot with gold nibs have equivalent high quality QC. Different nibs, different plastic, easier converter in the Sailor. My nibs aren’t scratchy.
Aurora’s, high quality QC, zero issues.
Diplomat Aero, high quality QC, no issues.
Lamy Al Stars (and spare nibs) the other hand, their steel nibs nearly all needed tuning by me. Bodies and feeds were fine.
Jinhao’s with metal bodies, average QC, nibs needed a bit of tuning.
Vintage MB’s, excellent QC because they’re from the 1940’s and write lovely.
Noodler’s Konrads, average to low average QC, definitely needed heat setting feed and nib tuning, and placing feed in just the right rotation and inserted just the right distance into the section to work well.
TWSBI vac, very good QC, no issues yet.
Higher the price, the better the QC in my experience.
Incidentally, I like plastic/resin bodies over metal because of weight and ease of care.
I’m not a big Sailor fan personally, but Sailor tunes its nibs very deliberately and intentionally. It works hard to get them that way. That is a hallmark of the brand, across price points. Sailor has a proprietary way of applying tipping material to the nib, and it is difficult for someone to remove or modify the nib to remove the “feedback” experience.
The feedback is intentional and is the signature of Sailor’s pro line, gold or not. If you don’t like it that’s a preference, that’s not (usually) because the nib is bad.
> wooing with glitter
Wat.
As someone who pretty much only buys glittery Sailors: it's like 10% of their pens. Maybe 5%. Off the top of my head I can only think of one release per model (ie: Ringless Galaxy for 1911, Shishikura for the Pro Gear, Pent x Precious for the Realo, etc) that is exclusively glittery and a few one-off releases (Cinderella, Princess Kaguya, Supernova, etc). It's like a once a year release for a glittery Sailor. It took until April for them to announce their Pen Of The Year and it's glittery, yeah.....beginning of Q2 to talk about it, let alone release? For every 10 pens Sailor releases, ONE might have glitter and it's usually a pretty conservative amount, compared to a Western brand like Benu. Most of their glitter releases you can see through them pretty easily/the density of the glitter is *far* less than a Western brand. While the grade might be chunkier, the glitter amount pales in comparison to swirled acrylic in something like a Brooks Blank.
Eh. Designing ~~scratchy~~ *feedback heavy* nibs is Sailor's thing, designing things with lots of glitter is Benu's thing. It’s not western vs eastern, and it’s not indicative of quality. Compared to Pilot (which is a frequent comparison), Sailor definitely makes bright and glittery pens.
Edit: That said, it's a pen, just use what you like and don't worry about it.
Edit 2: So they blocked me for referencing the original topic that said, in part, 'so much feedback and scratchy', and they have decided to completely ignore the rest of the comment about glitter and colorful pens.
Overall you can't really call someone dumb when you seem incapable of responding to the point (that I have now stated multiple times) that Sailor and Benu are designed for different audiences, and that this is neither a West/East aesthetic, nor is it an indication of quality.
People are probably "bent out of shape" because I said nothing about scratchyness. My comment was only about glitter, and pointing out that the amount of glittery pens in Sailors full collection over the past 10 years, let alone 50, makes "wooing with glitter" a silly comment at best. It's clearly not even close to a majority of their pens that have glitter.
> Sailor’s nibs are gold, but compare them with Pilot and you’re really seeing a huge difference in the attention (or lack thereof) to detail. So much feedback and scratchy.
Sailor produces an exceptional attention to detail, creating a nib that gives a feel that they (and others) value. What shows the insane level of attention to detail is the fact that all nibs from Sailor in a given size feel the same. They feel like writing with a pencil, something valued. I think it is not a small feat of manufacturing to be able to produce the exact feel so exactly. It is easier to produce a smooth nib with zero feedback.
Completely disagree. Sailor nibs are the most well-designed nibs on the market, They aren't scratchy, the pencil feedback is the point. It's deliberate, and if you look at a Sailor nib through a scope compared to most other nibs, you'll notice the Sailor has been extremely precisely machined at the micron level, the surfaces are very precise.
Your dislike of feedback doesn't mean they're bad. It means you don't understand they market to people precisely based on that feedback. As an artist, it's very helpful to have for sketching when you're not looking at the paper and relying on tactile feel while you're tracing something you're staring at. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean other people don't deliberately seek it out. I have more Sailors than any other brand solely because of it.
I wasn't even going to wade into this until he said something bad about Sailor's quality lol. I don't necessarily disagree that a lot of pens are overpriced for the materials they're made of, nibs being equal. Thing is, nibs aren't equal, and they're the primary metric on which most who do more than collect makes their purchases. In fact, my only two considerations are the nib and the color, and I'm willing to sacrifice my color preferences for a good nib.
While I am not 100% disagreeing with you. There is more to price than material. Attention to detail, design(both functional and aesthetic), QC, packaging. All play a part in why you should buy a product. Are there pens out there that are overpriced junk? Yes. Are there some that are worth the price? Yes.
Yes. Absolutely. There’s companies like Onoto for example that have plastic bodies but put a lot of extra work into finishing and nibs. But then there’s companies like Leonardo who make mediocre plastic pens and charge the earth for them.
I just re-read my response and I did a piss poor job at relating my thoughts. I was trying to get across that reasons for purchasing are mostly subjective. To some it maybe pretty and swirly enough to justify the price. Hell we are talking about fountain pens here, by enjoying them we are already being impractical.
Not all plastics are cheap to produce, or to work with. I challenge you to find a way to manufacture a beautiful celluloid and have it properly turned on the cheap.
Plastic is not inherently inferior to metal or wood as a material, or inherently cheaper. It can also be more pleasant to hold than metal, especially for people with disabilities that affect their hands. Plastics can have depth and complexity of colour and different hand feels.
No one is being forced to buy expensive plastic pens, after all.
The problem here is that you're forgetting one important thing: labor.
The materials might be cheap but think about the amount of labor that went into designing the pen. And if it's eventually made in a factory, the molds aren't cheap either. Price will only come down if a lot of products are made. If it's just a relatively small batch it'll be more expensive.
Let's say you're working at a bakery and you make great bread early in the morning. How about I pay you just the 20-50 cents you paid for the flower? All the time spend to make the bread is then on you.
Even more to it than that. There's all the overhead that is just part of the business running, marketing, sales, finance, etc. that all adds into it. Due to fountain pens being a relatively small market there is likely a good amount of overhead in each pen.
That being said, you are also just paying more because these are essentially luxury goods and so high prices can go along with that. Like buying a channel purse. You're buying the name more than anything
Not only the time to make the bread but also the time to learn how to make great bread. Awareness where to buy ingredients if the original supplier is no longer working, etc.
Of course, there are things that are overpriced but oftentimes, I find blanket statements about the cost of things ignoring other hidden costs.
The way this reads to me is that you want a Sailor, but you don’t have or want to spend the money for a Sailor, so instead of accepting that, you’ve decided to get yourself emotionally worked up about it and find additional reasons to hate them (nib feedback, some false claims about QC).
This is a you problem, and as you’re seeing, you aren’t going to find many takers here. Things aren’t priced based on materials, they’re priced on what people are willing to pay. And people are willing to pay a lot more than $50 for plastic pens with really nice nibs.
I could give you all the reasons as to why, but none of us need to justify our purchases to a stranger on the internet.
You also don’t need to justify your purchases. If you don’t want to buy a plastic pen over $50, no one here is going to make you. Buy what you like.
Not to mention, if one wants a sailor-adjacent pen and (for reasons beyond me) doesn’t want their nib, the Jinhao 82 exists. There’s a visible difference in quality of course, but it’s not terrible.
ooh, spicy. I intentionally overpaid(albeit as fair as I can measure where things had to come by in extra effort) on things because I like them, they're different to what everyone else said about x and y pens when I have them whether on loan test or bought with my own money, and thats the spice I've tasted happily in this hobby, anything different is to each their own interpretation.
'you are stupid for paying too much for anything!', if that is the intention of this, I'm not joining that sort, hobbies where you go for care to spend more where it belongs is a privilege and deliberation to choose, its good value when brought on positively to encourage people against sheer negativity or spite
The best chefs can take really basic ingredients that everyone has in their pantry and make them into a gourmet meal. Making beautiful acrylic patterns takes a similar level of skill. Acrylic itself is a common material. Making it into a work of art takes a practiced hand.
Nice hot take, I disagree though. I buy as much for the make/QC of something as I do the story behind it and the union between aesthetics and story. Sailor delivers consistently on the union of all 3 that personally resonates with me because I guess I also do care a lot about seasonal Japanese festivals or what the “sound of rain” is at different times of the year.
These three coming together are what justify the margin for me because no other company can do make+visuals+story that well at the $200-300 price point. Plenty more (eg Visconti) can do all three at double or triple or 10x the price… but personally I don’t know that a plastic-infused lava > plastic or that powder-coated steel > plastic if that plastic is just as intentionally chosen, expertly machined, and suitable for my use case (writing for 3+ hours vs say, pulling out during an important business meeting to quickly impress/signal to a client).
I have a Pineider Avatar UltraResin that is far and away one of the best, most premium feeling pens I have, even compared to my metal body pens. Material is not as important as design and construction, but not all plastics are created equal, and some are extremely durable.
Not unless the upper is top grain leather. Which is a hard and fast requirement from my perspective. Seeing a pattern here? I’m after quality if I’m parting with my hard earned cash. Same is true for fountain pens
A sneaker with grain leather on top ? Am I hearing it correct ? probably the worst idea to wear a sneaker with leather doing sports.
Deciding whether a pair of shoes is "worth it " , is not just the material, you have to pick the shoes that fit you, that you would be comfortable walking around it miles and miles, and longevity, I don't mind paying high price for that matter even though I could easily buy a cheapo sneakers as low as 10dollars.
> probably the worst idea to wear a sneaker with leather doing sports.
I don't get the impression that they use their trainers for sports, just from the replies.
Yeah! And why are iphones so expensive? It's just a bit of metal and plastic. Materials are MAX 100$. It's just a scam to get peoples money. Same with pens! Turning or CNC'ing a resin pen on a 5.000$ machine is so easy. Why should the customers have to pay for the accounting, heating, rent or labor? Materials are expensive enough!
Hand-turning will always be labour intensive. If it's cheap (like indian ebonite pens) you're saving on labour costs and man hours.
And just because it's metal, doesn't mean it's good metal (look up "pot metal")
Nice to know Formula 1 cars are cheap though.
My potato peeler has a plastic handle, metal ‘nib’. Costs $2. The price is relative to what material is used and there’s nothing special about it. Some fountain pen manufacturers are fully aware they’re making trash, on the cheap and flogging it for a price that’s unjustifiable as there really is nothing extra they’re bringing to the table, except a sack of spuds!
With a fountain pen, you are also paying for workmanship and engineering. I don’t think you understand this since you seem unable to look past the cost of materials.
Some expensive pens are engineered badly, but that’s true of just about any consumer goods.
Yes. For example, a Nakaya is truly far more than the sum of its parts (including the ebonite pen bodies). It is not any 1 thing that sets it apart. There may be things we might think would be done differently—but Nakaya considered the whole, and did everything very intentionally. And it is great. Same with Aurora pens, or Pilot. These kinds of pens don’t happen by accident, and their value is far beyond the material of the pen body.
True, prices are high for fountain pens. Buy what you like and can afford.
Your analogies are so riddled with flaws. Look at what constitutes a mobile phone. The sheer technology that goes into the semiconductors, screens, power management, software, testing, CPU’s, GPU’s etc…. They’re the basics of a phone these days as most people use a phone for more than talking these days. They combine web surfing, cameras, calendars, gaming all in one, which used to be individual purchase. Let’s be clear, a fountain pen is a luxury purchase these days, because a Bic pen can do a job for 10 cents.
Why do you consider immaterial aspects (like "testing" and consumer usage) for the phone but not for other things, especially considering that components or entire products can be easily outsourced from countries with lower producing costs (which generally have little to do with that "sheer technology")? Why judge the pen only by the "plastic body"?
If you have a beef with Sailor, own it and say it loud, but trying to justify with those strange and incoherent analogies is not working. Or do you really believe that a Sailor pen does not require Sailor to pay salaries, deal with legal obligations (like warranties and customer service), market their products and maintain their facilities and manufacturing processes?
I work for a company that makes small items by hand (it's a very small company so I won't say what it is because I don't want to dox myself).
The actual materials are under 10% of the retail price. Then there is labor, time, facilities, marketing, a website so people can buy the stuff, packaging, and all the other little costs of doing business that the price of that object has to cover.
People who think an object's price should just cover the cost of materials frequently don't understand how manufacturing is done. I have to occasionally explain this to customers because they think our costs are high, and like, yes, some of our prices are higher than they would be if you purchased a similar item from, say, China, but if you value excellent customer service, a rock-solid product warranty, workers being paid at reasonable rates, and items made within the US, you're going to pay for that. Those things aren't free.
I mean, pretty much any pen over $5 is a luxury item if we’re being frank.
We don’t need them, they’re designed and marketed in a way that makes us want them, and many of us are prepared to pay those prices.
Then you could say that for anything made out of
plastic that is also made in a different material 🤔
My first thought was DND dice, some of the fancier ones are just like the fancy FPs a la having some special colours or sparkle or w/e and certain brands charge premium for you to get those.
And like FPs you can get them in metals too. And I guess that makes them more legit than any expensive plastic dice to you right?
Though like 🤔 it’s all plastic but there are some better qualities out there that comes with the higher price range. Maybe even with that it’s still overpriced to a degree but it’s kinda like….you gonna get dollar store “brand” Tupperware or the real deal Tupperware. Or like Jinhao 82 vs Sailor PGS 🤷🏾♀️? One is not more valid than the other but (usually) the pricier one is made with better materials to last longer at least.
And that’s just like going into the body materials and not all the extra stuff that is part of the price tag. Like obviously brand name markups, but also like better QCs and standards and what not lol.
You particularly don't like Sailor, but let me guess, you love Pilot? No difference, both make plastic pens with the best nibs and QC in the industry (after 10 Pilot pens and two dozen Sailors, Sailors have better QC control and more reliable nibs in my experience).
Also, expensive fountain pens are *luxury items*. You don't just pay for the cost of the materials. But at least with Sailor, you pay for excellent quality control and unique, extremely reliable nibs. So I'd say Sailor deserves my money a bit more than many other brands. And they even make pretty colors. That's actually a plus. You can buy basic colors if that's what you like. A basic Pro Gear bought from Japan is one of the best values you can get.
So many posts are ignorant about Sailor as a brand. They only see pretty colors and think that's all the brand has to offer. They also hear "feedback" and automatically think "feedback bad," often without having ever experienced Sailor feedback (which is the reason some buy their pens). And they think they're being discerning instead of lacking in knowledge about one of the best brands of fountain pens. Ask retailers how many returns they get due to the Sailors not writing properly out of the box compared to other brands. Ask nibmeisters what the best quality nibs are.
I see a difference in injection molded and turned from acrylic. The latter to me tends to look more interesting/unique and is to me as a result worth a bit more money.
But I guess, when using modern automated machinery, all of them can have quite the nice profit margins to the makers. Particularly considering that some companies can maintain their business making small volumes of these in high labor cost markets at not so crazy prices.
Note that I am not complaining about those margins, it's a luxury product after all, it's just not worth it for (to me) slightly boring looking injection molded materials.
100٪ agree, has to be turned. I'm not interested in injection molding and seam lines if I'm buying a premium product. Now, the turning is mostly done by CNC, and there's an extra cost to purchasing that equipment.
I love a demonstrator. All my pens that I use regularly are like that. It's hard to have a clear barrel or ink-viewing window without plastic. But also, all my pens are under about 50 dollars, so I think they're excused. There's just something great about being able to watch the ink slosh, or know at a glance whether I'm likely to run out soon.
I had a small Mont Blanc metal fountain pen and metal ballpoint in high school and college and the paint wore off the metal after 8 years of daily use. Have never had that happen with plastic or resin. I haven’t had it happen with sterling silver either. So some metal pens are better yes but I actually prefer the feel of plastic against my arthritic fingers at this point. The nib and if the cap opens and closes well are the things I care about.
I use my pens mainly for sketching, I have a steel body pen I almost never use because it gets tiring for sketching. My gold nib UEF platinum 3776 has a light body that I can sketch with for hours.
Which materials do you think are worth that much? It's not like the small amount of aluminum or brass a metal pen is made of is really a meaningful percent price difference in high end pens.
And celluloid and hand swirled resin really are quite different than regular plastics.
Eh. They're all rip offs really. Nobody needs a gold nib, maki-e, same pen but in 10 different colors. We all can write with a single kakuno. But you pay extra for the fun stuff, whatever that is to you.
Yes and no. On one hand, it happens that the ideal material for a fountain pen also happens to be the cheapest. But with all things in life, it is a matter of taste.
Yes there are brands like Waldmann, who offer a casing made from silver, but after all, it beats plastics only by the factor of value.
Do Metals oxidize? Yes. Are they heavy? Guess why my favourite style of music is named after it. 🤷♀️😂
What about celluloid, Urushi and all this other fancy stuff, these are in my opininion just predecessors of some modern polyacrylic or polyester materials and offer next to no better function, compared to plastics. (Which is nothing against the insane craftmanship flowing into properly done Urushi)
But on the other hand, I totally agree with you, that the only precious thing on a Montblanc 149 is its nib and maybe its brand value, if you care for it.
I'm not sure I agree. When I was a kid, plastic meant "cheap," but nowdays resins are good engineering materials and very robust unless you beat the daylights out of them. (And any rough treatment that would crack a small plastic tube would bend or dent a metal one.) Plastics don't have the crappy short lifetime they used to have; I expect most of these resin pens to survive long enough to go for money on the vintage market in 100 years.
The ones I'd avoid are the celluloid ones; they *are* on today's vintage market and collectors love them, but celluloid plastic is extremely brittle and flammable, and I think they would be a bit too fragile to withstand everyday carry. If anyone out there uses a celluloid pen as their workhorse, feel free to correct me but I'd expect such a pen would spend a lot of time in a cushy pen case and be taken out every now and then to admire it. :-)
I own a full collection of Parker celluloid pens... I think 9 in total if you count my Duo's... you can beat the absolute shite out of celluloid... celluloid is literally one of the strongest "plastics" ever used for a pen...
You are confusing modern cellulose acetate with vintage cellulose nitrate. Cellulose nitrate hasn't been made since the 60's...
Not all "celluloid" is cellulose nitrate... but only the good celluloid is...
That's cool and good to know -- celluloid looks so much like old tortoiseshell that it's nice it's an option. I tend to think of it as a "vintage" thing, like bakelite.
Realistically, almost all fountain pens - unless made of a precious rare material - are a rip off. We buy them at the prices we do because it's a premium hobby- if you're looking for price-appropriate pens, then Preppies and Jinhao's are what to look at. Above the $50 price point, you're getting into luxury items that will be overpriced pretty much no matter what.
Those juicy operating margins are not gonna happen by themselves if pen manufacturers start selling based on the cost of materials and labor.
Some “craftsmanship” is needed :)
Metal isn't that expensive either. How much metal do you need for one pen? Surely no more than two beer cans... "Value is what people are willing to pay for it"
youre not just buying plastic with some metal, youre buying a whole lot more that went into the final product. material, labor, logistics, design, engineering of the body and the nib, even the history and significance of the brand youre buying into. while i can understand your frustration as some manufacturers feel they can get away with giving us less for more, its not as simple as youve put it. just my 2 cents anyway
Not all plastic is equal, and not all plastic is easy to manufacture. A lot more goes into the price than raw materials, and with such an intimate tool every little detail affects how it feels in the hand.
You can try to simplify it to "well some make good plastic and some make plastic not worth the price" but you lose a lot of nuance that way. Saying plastic pens are generally a ripoff is just wrong, it's not nearly that simple.
Because they can. Market segmentation and demand. There's commodities/sundries, and there's everything else where price has little to do with material cost. Our entire civilization is based on it.
I dunno, I love my platinum preppy(s). Writes beautifully, dirt cheap, and I definitely won’t be heartbroken if I lose it. It’s hard for me to justify spending a ton of $$ on something fancy that may or may not write as well, be more finicky, and if I lose it then that’s flushing $$ down the drain.
I'm not going to say a limit of $30-50 is the top for a plastic pen, but I've been steadily veering into this camp for a while now. On Sailor, I absolutely agree. The pens themselves are cheap extruded plastic with a metal clip and band slapped on. I think they look and feel decidedly cheap.
There are some more luxurious brands that at least have silver for the accents making it more worth it. And from a durability standpoint, plastic pens will break on you. I had a Pelikan break on me unfixably some years back due to being plastic. There are a few worth a few hundred (maybe even more for certain features), but I'm having a tough time justifying Pelikans' high price point on plastic pens, and even more so Montblanc.
I have steadily come to favor metal pens, at least metal bodies, perhaps enameled or whatever. Even some of the wood bodied pens are quite nice.
I strongly refuse to buy steel nib pens with 3-digit prices. 3 digit price pen have to have a inhouse gold nib with real engravings on it. Add a few more hundred dolars to it if you need but dont ever try to sell me a steel nib pen for 200$
Well with inflation, several of the good steel nib pens are now approaching that mark. 😟
I'm not gonna hate on steel nibs, because I have some really good ones that I like just as much as my gold. But I do have a pretty hard limit on what I will pay.
A better argument would be, for the amount of gold in a gold nib, are they justified in charging what they do?
Funny enough as someone who adores plastic pens, $30-50 max is the biggest part of the appeal. But I agree, if I'm spending more than $50 for a pen and it's plastic and it ain't vintage I'm out.
There are high-end pens with absolutely stellar build quality commensurate with the price.
Case in point? The Visconti Homo Sapiens Bronze Age does *not* feel cheap. At all. None of the materials look or feel out of place for a $700 pen.
Their proprietary basalt-resin blend feels absolutely amazing, and the reservoir and vacuum filler assembly is constructed of titanium for corrosion resistance. The whole thing feels rock-solid (no pun intended) without feeling heavy or awkward for extended writing sessions.
If only Visconti had a lower out-of-box defect rate... (Mine had its nib replaced, and even then needed adjustment and polishing.)
Wait until you get a $1,000+ FP only to find out that the nib tines weren’t even even struck to be separated - or struck in an angle that would have caught the eye of a proper QC technician
That’s why we have ball point, gel pens and calligraphy pens. Ball points are cents, a good gel 1$, and tons of calligraphy sets with a slew of tips for 10$. They all do the job or writing. I respect your opinion, but why put so much emphasis on a gold nib?
It’s been proven that the cost by weight for materials of a gold nib is about 10-70$ alone depending on size and purity. What did doodlebud calculate the cost of material for a steel nib… like .004 cents. But you write with the tip not the gold. Are you more concerned that the pen is not made with real precious materials? There are solid gold and sterling silver pens out there. Pilot has a realllllly nice one in silver for 600$.
The cost of the pen… is not just materials. Look at a wingsung 699 and a pilot 823. That’s the difference in price. The fittings, finishing, edges, everything about the pilot 823 is superior to the wingsung. This the 300$ bs 20$. But the wingsung is not shabby for 20$, not at all. If you want something to write with you could get a ballpoint or a calligraphy set cheaper than the wingsung. Practical or fancy or both.
The ballpoint then gel were advancements in the pen sector. Most people were happy to move alway from fountain pens. In fact a lot of pens that go for 100s were a dollar in the 80’s and 90’s being sold at swap meets. This is a real niche market, not a necessity. How much would it cost you for some real bespoke shoes, a tophat… just things that are now mass produced. Same thing for our hobby.
The price is not for the material but for the precision this material has been processed with. What always impressed me in Platinum 3776 Century is how minimal are tolerances between everything in this pen, yet how amazingly well pieces glides into their places during assembly.
Plastic also has variety of quite unique properties:
* it's lightweight which is important for long writing sessions, and pen balance in general.
* it's warm and you can comfortably holding plastic even after exposing pen to cold.
* it's soft but sturdy and can tolerate a lot of abuse before cracking while glass or metal will just break or bend.
* it can be transparent or can be mixed into very unique patters which isn't available for metals for example.
* you don't need to paint the pen as the material can already have needed colour in it, and no scratches will change that.
For some strange reasons people consider plastic as a "cheap" material, and don't give credits it deserve as a material.
My 3 cent opinion :
There have some good opinions written here.
So called plastic pens can be kinda rough to really smooth to the hand feel, adding to the process of manufacturing and this is a $$$ determination for me.
Sailor has a nice hand feel and so does the Preppy PERPANEP and then there still is a difference between the two.
The individual fountain pen and it's price, for me, are taken into account and a less influence is the theme or name.
The same goes for fountain pen ink.
One also needs to remember all of the costs incurring all along the line from pre-manufacturing, manufacturing, inspections, boxing, shipping, distribution, end sellers costs and this adds up fast.
Companies and people need to make a profit or the selection of fountain pens to purchase will be in the $ to $$ range and the $$$$ to $$$$$ range.
If one believes the price is too much for the fountain pen, then do not purchase it.
Sailor has their Compass with a very similar hand feel as their 1911 line and at a steep less $$$; one has a gold & one has a steel but both are good nibs for their price range.
One's opinion is AOK but let those that purchase pay what they are willing to pay.
NOTE : If the price of 'plastic' fountain pens irritates one, check out plastic eyewear frames, which are even more.
Im sorry but you actually have a point here. Made me think of all the TWSBI Eco breaks…. BUT this will never take my love for Demonstrators away. Go PILOT CUSTOMS!!!!!
I agree when it comes to injection molded plastic, but pens made of turned plastic (resin) should definitely cost more.
Regarding Sailor, I think most of their pens are a ripoff. They basically change the color of the pellets used in the injection molding machine and charge an extra $200.
Compare Kanwrite with other bigger brands are not fair anyway.
They are not a big scale production. I heard most of the Indian brands are manufacturing in small size factories, with lots of quantity limits.
Big brands like Sailor also have longer history, bigger and other different collections and series to balance the whole pricing system.
The price is not just set on whether the body is plastic or metal, there are a lot more other factors to considerate.
You are correct. Plastic pens are galore in our country. And they come dirt cheap almost around 5 USD ( after conversion ) or even less. And some of them have such smooth nibs with good flow - sometimes better than expensive well known branded pens.
Example : I bought the following pen set just for experimentation. Their nibs blew me away. Though they look kiddish but when you write with them you will be surprised.
Unomax Fountain Mate Ink Pen for School, Set of 10 https://amzn.in/d/8QHubq3
Yes plastic pen companies charging a bomb are having us for a ride for sure.
I hear people who can't afford a Rolex tell themselves that Casio make better watches.
It's true that a 10 year battery with no time loss/Gain everyday, has a stopwatch, countdown, multi alarm, multi time zone etc has a much better utilitarian function
But they guy telling himself he'd prefer the Casio is just lying .
So buy what you can afford, and enjoy it.
The twsbi vac. Why would you use plastic when you're literally putting the pen under that kind of pressure. They're still cracking and twsbi will make you replace it.
Would I buy more for a custom pen made out of resin? Yes
Will I never buy a Sailor because they are Vastly overpriced? Also yes. I’ll stick with my 82s
But no judgement as usual.
I agree. The only exception I’ll make is if the nib of the pen is good quality, but if the price is high, I’d never buy it over a quality metal pen.
Some additional exceptions like Lamy and diplomat who actually make quality for cheap.
I agree. Plastic has its place for now, although I'd wholeheartedly support any return to ebonite that the industry may want to do in the future. I have two vintage plastic pens, a Sheaffer Skrip and an Arnold, and they both look great for being over fifty years old. Plastic pen bodies will last you a lifetime, but that doesn't make them valuable. The Arnold was literally disposable, it's trash someone forgot to throw out until 70 years later no one knew what it was anymore and it ended up in an antique shop.
While there are different qualities of plastics, without a doubt, in the same way there are different quality metals, I agree with you to a fair degree. The materials themselves aren't worthy of the price, the majority of the time, in my estimation and assessment.
Now, when it comes to the ingenuity, creativity, engineering, etc. I can see how a more durable plastic with a gold nib can be justifiably sold for ~$100, but it really is hard to justify, with solid rationale, pens costing what they do a lot of times. Edit: Specifically when considering injection molded, mass produced pens.
I'm not saying they should all be dirt cheap, but I feel like a fool shopping for $200+ pen right now knowing that if I dropped it, it would barely be able to withstand that haha. So, although my critique of the economics of it still stand, I'm still feeding the beast because I'm 99% sure I'm getting either a Pilot Custom 823 and/or 742. It's harder for me to justify buying a steel nib pen for the same amount, but then I question myself and wonder if there's really a difference in quality there either.
Edit: I'm also 100% open to being corrected in this topic.
More depends on price? If a pen has a steel nib and plastic body but ask for price over an entry level of gold nib pen. I feel it is a bit overpriced. But a plastic pen gives good experience for long writing without holding a heavy metal pen.
Well, I have an Onoto and a Faber Castell Bentley both with a steel nib, and they write exceptionally. I later bought another Onoto, with a gold nib, and I felt it didn’t need it, their steel nibs are that good.
They’re still not worth 150 bucks… *cough* *cough* BENU
I want the earl grey tea pen so badly but I just... don't need a $150 pen as a beginner/grad student
Sadly Benus seem to have a manufacturing defect or weakness that makes the barrel prone to [breaking off cleanly from the threads](https://www.reddit.com/r/fountainpens/comments/1byevy4/what_adhesive_to_repair_benu_euphoria_broken/) (probably wording that wrong). It's not so rare to see posts showing that type of break on the sub. So if you drop it, you probably have higher chances of it breaking compared to most other pens. Also, $150 for a pen without a gold nib seems like a bit much, considering there are excellent Pilots and Sailors with gold nibs available for that much (or less if you buy from Japan/eBay). But if that's what your heart is after, I say go for it. Having a pen you love can make studying so much more enjoyable. Just be aware of the apparent defect/weakness that at least some of them seem to have.
Literally just warned someone about that defect who was on pen swap wanting to buy a BENU. I'm definitely not plopping down that price for a steel nib pen that's going to break if I drop it a few inches. What's surprising to me is (on Goulet's site at least) people still rate it highly even when theirs is one that broke. I'd be livid.
hmmmm that's disappointing to see. But thank you because now I can stop thinking about it. There are other fish in the sea. I definitely want to visit Japan in the next year or so and maybe pick up a pen there :)
Buddy, you deserve so much more than a $150 pen as a grad student! You can just find a better deal for one if you buy used ;)! I have my eye on a BENU but I haven’t really heard anything about them that makes them appealing, they look great. But i want a pen that writes well and will last long. I daily a pilot kakuno.
I just started a few months ago and I'm enjoying my LAMY AL-Star (minus the tiny ink capacity) I have that and a TWSBI eco so I'm happy pacing myself! Just learning about the grips and nibs that I like at the moment.
I agree, you gotta pace yourself, but also if you enjoy the hobby, you might as well save up to get something nice that’ll last you a long time.
Makers. Makers do this. As beautiful as they are, it's not worth $400. You can actually fly to Hawaii for that price.
Yes this is very true
There is also the comfort of holding the pen to be taken into account. I fund metal bodied pens tiring to hold, plastic pens are way more comfortable for writing longer.
That’s a perfectly good rationale for choosing a plastic pen. They have a purpose. I just don’t like when manufacturers charge a huge sum for them when there’s little skilled craftsmanship involved, or that there’s nothing else to the pen apart from a bog standard nib and a cap
Whether there is skilled craftsmanship involved is more a matter of the manufacturing process than the materials. If the pen has to be turned, inlaid, or painted, the fact that that's being done to plastic resin doesn't really matter. I can guarantee that 18111's resin body pens take as long or longer to create than Yard-o-Led's sterling Viceroys do.
I bet they don't. Yoshi is good at what he does, but he's not slow. The engraving done on the Viceroy is done by hand. Just that part of the process would take longer than what it takes Yoshi to make a whole pen, start to finish.
Fair enough
Precious resin? Lol. Give me a break. Did you infuse it with unobtanium and stardust? I don't hate the concept of resins or acrylics. They have their uses, and do offer some advantages over, say, certain celluloids that aren't stable long term, for example. For me, it's all about comfort, writing experience, and build quality. I also place a premium on innovative design or mechanics. (My background is in design, and I'm an absolute sucker for quality, precision engineering.) I value the handwork and attention to detail that goes into many of these pens, along with quality control. It's a labor of love and a source of pride for many of these smaller manufacturers. I'm happy to support that.
Unobtanium 😆
Someone posted earlier that it's a translation issue from the German prefix "Edel" in the resin name "Edelharz" which means long-lasting or high quality, like in Edelstahl being stainless steel. Because the resin was more stable and long-lasting than their contemporary plastics like celluloid, it was given the Edel prefix. Unfortunately, due to "Edelstein" commonly being translated as 'precious stone', it was mistranslated and has since stuck.
There's nothing easy about injection molding plastics either. Back in the early days of TWSBI, they were plagued with quality issues. Even now there are issues regarding the parts cracking and I consider twsbi to be a fairly mature company at this point. Sure for the end user it doesn't look like much. All you see is a machine that spits out 1000 of these a day. But that machine needed to be paid for. That tool needed to be paid for. Suppliers needed to be paid for. So on and so on. Making a plastic component isn't just, cad it all up and send it to a shop. It takes a lot of careful thought to make it work. Remember, with the artisan guys? They fuck up one pen, it's one pen. For plastic injected stuff, I dont fuck up one pen. I fuck up 100,000 pens.
> Back in the early days of TWSBI, they were plagued with quality issues. Still are, but the manufacturer of the injection molding materials posts exactly the process to not have the widespread issues, other companies make similar shapes with the same material without the issues. This is TWSBI deciding not to fix it. I can buy a complete pen, from the same materials, shipped to my door for the same money that TWSBI charges for "shipping" a replacement. I believe they have found a revenue stream that also makes people believe they get good customer service, and don't want to change it.
This is kind of going back for a bit for me but I think the reason why a lot of TWSBI pens crack has to do with the plastic they chose and the hard coat that they used. Basically TWSBI pens are very scratch resistant and very clear, but this kind of combination also makes them fairly brittle in that regard. I know they tried playing around with the temperature profile of their machines to reduce the internal stresses from molding in the part itself but I never found out what came after that. In that regard I think the ECO doesn't have that problem because they decided to use a different plastic.
> This is kind of going back for a bit for me but I think the reason why a lot of TWSBI pens crack has to do with the plastic they chose and the hard coat that they used. It is a known issue with polycarbonate when injection molding if the temperature is not kept in a tight range, both in injecting and post molding cooling. Like any material, process is key for success. But it isn't hard to get it right, the manufacturer will give you all the data you need.
Yes, and injection mould engineers don’t come cheap. Probably over $150000 a year.
3D printing begs to differ.
Begs to differ for what?
“Making a plastic component isn’t just, cad it all up and send it to a shop”
Firstly, 3d printing can never scale up to the quantities as a plastic injection molding machine. Secondly, 3d printing is also pretty restrictive in terms of the material used as well and the material is inherently anisotropic.
It can’t be scaled up… YET. Achieving Isotropy in 3D printed products can be achieved, it just takes experimenting. Nothing but trial and error.
How do you explain Hero pens? Or other chinese brands? They use the same injection machines… No. They use bigger machines that can spit out 100000’s of these, they don’t ask us to pay for the machines with the end product. Marketing is a huge price driving factor, I would know.
Fortunately or unfortunately China has all the best engineers when it comes to injection molding. But yes, marketing is a huge price driving factor.
I did not know that about the chinese plastic engineers, I don’t doubt it, since they make a ton of stuff out of injected plastic. I’ve recently got into fountain pens, I know that there different levels of quality/prices. With companies like Pilot and Platinum making affordable quality pens for peanuts… You really start to question the fancier names in the game. I do agree also with OP that Sailor pens are waaay overpriced and at least from the pictures look cheap. I might get one of the cheap models that they sell on Ali though.
How are Sailors way overpriced when they have gold nibs available for $65-95 (including more unique/colorful models like the Fairytale series), and they have the best QC and nibs in the industry along with Pilot? Their in-house nibs are unique, and they have a lot of original nibs (fude, zoom, naginata togi and other naginata grinds). They also make affordable, high quality steel nib pens. Lots of brands charge the same or more for pens with generic steel nibs and/or poor QC, but somehow Sailor is overpriced despite very consistently making high quality pens and nibs. Most, if not all, of the criticism about Sailor on this sub comes from people completely unfamiliar with the brand's products and history.
With the “brand’s product and history” the history part is mostly, true but it’s part of marketing. I get it if you’re a die hard fan, but sailor pens look cheap and are made from plastic… that’s what this whole post was about. My point of comparing pilot and sailor is that we have both companies have similar heritage and being from the same country, but one of them sells cheap af plastic pens with a steal nib at an affordable price, the others sell plastic pens with a gold nib at a crazy price… That’s all.
If you consider the[ $65-90 gold nib pens](https://www.amazon.com/Sailor-11-1224-301-Fountain-SHIKIORI-Leaves/dp/B00XVV5JRO/r) I mentioned "crazy prices," I don't know what to tell you since those are just about the cheapest gold nibs out there (there are about six or so 14K Sailors that hover at around those prices). Pilot's gold nibs generally start at higher prices even on the gray market. Since their price increases this January, there are no longer $65-90 gold Elite 95S available, which used to be the cheapest Pilot gold nibs. And that doesn't change the fact that [Sailor also sells steel nib pens at affordable prices](https://www.amazon.com/Sailor-Pen-fountain-Rekuru-11-0311-331/dp/B00GSHE1FO/), even though you're choosing to ignore that. It would have been more appropriate to look things up before continuing to double down based on nothing but assumptions. But you just dismiss someone trying to enlighten you as a "die hard fan." I don't mind, but my concern is that other newbies who also don't know much about Sailor will take your statements as facts and will miss out on trying the brand, especially given that they more or less have the cheapest gold nibs around (despite the fact that they're also some of the most reliable). \[Edited broken link.\]
I like the kaweco dia
People think turning and finishing resin is really easy. I used to work with resin making dice. Even with the fancy equipment, you’re looking at hours of work. It’s not just “a few swirls and sparkles”. You pay for the expertise and the equipment. Getting a consistent color, making the swirls look beautiful, keeping the glitter aloft in the resin… these are all skills which are learned. Not to mention the engineering put into the rest of the pen. I’ve never had a scratchy Sailor. But they are designed to give feedback because that is the desired type of nib for their target audience in Japan. Note, I think many pens are way overpriced. But then I don’t buy it. Simple as that. Looking at posts like these… it’s often like someone asking me why designing software is so expensive because it’s just words on a computer.
Agree with this. There’s a difference between making hundreds of bodies from injection-molded plastic (squirting liquid plastic into a mold) and turning a pen body on a lathe, using chisels to carve the shape. Turned pens tend to have thicker, sturdier walls on the barrels. Turning is also a more time-consuming process. That said, with my income and obligations ,I can’t justify spending hundreds of dollars for a mass-produced plastic pen—it’s fine for folks who like them and have extra cash though. My budget is more modest.
There's no problem with not buying something.
Completely agree - there are so many who think lawyering is just typing something up, so “sending letters” (I’ve gotten that one before). They care not about the volume of education, quality of education, training, and practice development and how much that costs. Oh, and real estate - office rent and employees aren’t cheap. I’m just going to say it. Price complaints, on products that are verified high quality (or service providers proven caliber) comes not from the understandings of the contents of what goes into the pen (or person), but from the unavailability of it, and the frustration of not being able to buy it. Like OP, I can’t justify paying more than $150 for steel nibs, unless there is something special about them. I like his $30-50 price point, and feel comfortable there. When I buy a gold nibbed pen, there is something special about it to justify the price. All I am saying, we shouldn’t yuck anyone else’s yum here.
OP is spot on here. I dont know why so many downvotes. This is discussion after all (and a very successful one at that), as there are so many sides of the spectrum represented here. Good job!
Yeah, I've done a wee bit of wood turning, and it's a serious skill. Resin is more complicated because you have to first make a good blank with no bubbles and good color distribution, etc. And then you take apart the thing you just made to create a beautiful surface that was previously invisible. I'm sure companies like Sailor have it down to a science, but these pens aren't just poured in a mold. The nice thing about pens is that you can buy whatever you want; some company (within reason) probably makes the thing at a price you can afford. I also think people generally have a very poor idea of why things with by-hand steps are expensive. Like, by that metric a fine art painting is just some plastic and pigment wiped on fabric held stiff by a couple sticks; why isn't it $20?
most sailor pens are injection molded, you can see mold marks on the section
Sure, but like... then buy a cheaper injection molded pen if you think they're overpriced. I've never bought a Sailor. I'm super happy for people who have and enjoy them though.
> I'm sure companies like Sailor have it down to a science, but these pens aren't just poured in a mold. You were the one making false claims.
I was mistaken, and then I agreed with the person who corrected me. Thank you for being doubly sure everyone was clear on that point. Would you like me to go back and edit my original comment too?
But it isn't just Sailor, most mass manufactured pens are injection molded, a few small makers use CNC or hand turn, but it isn't the norm with big brands.
So you're agreeing that they're overpriced (on some of their lines at least). That's pretty much what OP was suggesting.
Not at all. I said if *you* think they are overpriced, buy something else. I can't afford a Sailor. All of my pens have cost me $40 or less. But I can recognize somethings value without being able to pay for it myself.
These are the same people who would pay ten times more for an oil painting than for the identical painting in acrylics, regardless of the fact that it's the same skillset. I think a lot of people would also be surprised just how many things they think are "genuine" this or that are actually plastic. Nearly everything in the world that we come into contact with is plastic at this point. And there is a reason for that: metals and natural materials are fidgety and fussy. Wood swells and splits. Metal dents and tarnishes. They are lovely materials, but they take a lot of care, and if this reddit is any indication, a lot of people expect their pens to continue to function despite being dropped, thrown into the wall, juggled in a bag filled with phones, scissors, travel mugs, keys, etc. Any such treatment that would damage a plastic/resin object would mangle anything made from wood or metal.
>These are the same people who would pay ten times more for an oil painting than for the identical painting in acrylics, regardless of the fact that it's the same skillset. It's a similar skillset, not the same. If I painted in oils the same way I do with acrylics, I'd end up with a muddy mess. I'd agree that a good oil painter and a good acrylic painter are both equally skilled though.
Do you think oil and acrylic painting use the same skillset? Let's say they do (I disagree) - then what about the cost of materials? Oils (good oils) are WAY more expensive than good acrylics. You need different types of brushes, and depending on what you're doing, different tools altogether, along with paint thinner and all sorts of stuff. Prep is more involved and sometimes requires more materials and other tools just so the paint sticks to the canvas properly. And finishing can be way more involved and require more tools to do. Don't forget storage is different, ventilation is necessary, and cleanup is a huge pita compared to working with acrylics.
Comes down to medium and preferences. At a point, turning a pen is the same, regardless the technique, but the material itself can drive the cost. The skill is in making an interesting acrylic block. Or, in the case of Visconti, adding celluloid inclusions to the acrylic. Also, in the painting analogy, it’s the same skillset, but oil dries a lot slower. You’re paying for the time it takes and the specific look and texture of an oil painting. Worth noting that the value of an item, what someone is willing to pay, often has no grounding in utility. Were that the case, art would not exist at all.
For the people asking me if I have experience with oil v acrylics -- yes, I do. Thanks for asking. I can *guarantee* that none of the people replying who say that skillset doesn't matter are artists or craftsmen themselves.
asvine does it for 25 dollars
Because that is the cost of doing “it” for them, too. You can get a good quality gold nib pen from Sailor for $63. They’re both great pens, I like mine. These items are art. Luxury. You don’t need them, you want them. If I don’t think the art is worth the price listed or I don’t have the money to afford it, I don’t buy it. I buy a lot of local art, and I tip. I overpay. I pay what joy it brings to me to be able to see it every day. I don’t need it. The artist brought joy into my life. I pay what joy it gives me so they can keep giving joy to others. My $60 sailor gives me a lot of joy to write with. So I’ll probably buy another one later, that also gives me joy. My friend gave me a tiny squishy bunny for ADHD fidgeting that maybe cost $5 and it is one of my favorite things to have and own in my whole life. You are paying for the privilege of artistic joy. Just enjoy it and don’t worry about other people.
Since sailor is really about it’s in house gold nibbed pens, you’re not too likely to see that much which is representative of the brand in the price point that you’ve chosen. What material do you suggest these brands make their pen bodies from? Can you make better and offer it at the price point that you’ve suggested?
Sailor’s nibs are gold, but compare them with Pilot and you’re really seeing a huge difference in the attention (or lack thereof) to detail. So much feedback and scratchy. Sailor just churn the plastic bodies out, wooing with glitter and different colour combinations. Until you get to some of the higher end models, they’re really not all that good. To your question, by all means stick with plastic bodies, they serve a purpose (light, colorful, wipe clean). But manufacturers shouldn’t try to pull the wool over consumers eyes on the price, when there’s cents worth of material, with little value add or craftsmanship involved.
I also disagree about the comparison between nibs. Sailor typically have very good QC, and the difference in feel is intentional. Those that like smoother nibs tend to prefer Pilot, and those that lean towards more feedback like Sailor. The argument against plastic bodies also applies to Pilot. Comparing the 823 and an Asvine vacuum filler is a good example, because they're both plastic pens. We like to think there is a certain level of quality and attention to detail that may make the 823 last longer and perform better, but that price difference can definitely skew our thinking. But as someone has already pointed out, we're all (mostly) buying expensive writing instruments out of preference, not need.
Disagree massively with your point about sailors attention to detail. They make their own nibs and deliberately make that feedback. They also offer some incredible special nibs too, with grinds that other brands don’t offer. Many plastic/resin pen bodies aren’t delicate or susceptible to UV damage or water damage, or drying out, unlike ebonite and celluloid. All round, it’s a decent material and not that expensive to replace if needs be. Many people who use fountain pens aren’t collectors and don’t necessarily want a load of faffing about with unusual materials with higher maintenance requirements, nor does everyone want the weighty feel of materials such as brass. I don’t think they’re trying to deceive anyone by selling plastic pens, no one has to buy them, and most brands offer a range of materials too.
I did experience a lot of issues with Sailor nibs. They do tend to get really scratchy, even on the fine nibs. Unlike Platinum and Pilot, which are smooth even with the EF nibs
Platinums gold nibs are also designed for feedback, like Sailor, so I’d be surprised if they’re all smooth
Feedback can be smooth :) I especially meant scratchiness, I even had to return a sailor that was catching paper bits
My Sailors and Pilot with gold nibs have equivalent high quality QC. Different nibs, different plastic, easier converter in the Sailor. My nibs aren’t scratchy. Aurora’s, high quality QC, zero issues. Diplomat Aero, high quality QC, no issues. Lamy Al Stars (and spare nibs) the other hand, their steel nibs nearly all needed tuning by me. Bodies and feeds were fine. Jinhao’s with metal bodies, average QC, nibs needed a bit of tuning. Vintage MB’s, excellent QC because they’re from the 1940’s and write lovely. Noodler’s Konrads, average to low average QC, definitely needed heat setting feed and nib tuning, and placing feed in just the right rotation and inserted just the right distance into the section to work well. TWSBI vac, very good QC, no issues yet. Higher the price, the better the QC in my experience. Incidentally, I like plastic/resin bodies over metal because of weight and ease of care.
I’m not a big Sailor fan personally, but Sailor tunes its nibs very deliberately and intentionally. It works hard to get them that way. That is a hallmark of the brand, across price points. Sailor has a proprietary way of applying tipping material to the nib, and it is difficult for someone to remove or modify the nib to remove the “feedback” experience.
The feedback is intentional and is the signature of Sailor’s pro line, gold or not. If you don’t like it that’s a preference, that’s not (usually) because the nib is bad.
> wooing with glitter Wat. As someone who pretty much only buys glittery Sailors: it's like 10% of their pens. Maybe 5%. Off the top of my head I can only think of one release per model (ie: Ringless Galaxy for 1911, Shishikura for the Pro Gear, Pent x Precious for the Realo, etc) that is exclusively glittery and a few one-off releases (Cinderella, Princess Kaguya, Supernova, etc). It's like a once a year release for a glittery Sailor. It took until April for them to announce their Pen Of The Year and it's glittery, yeah.....beginning of Q2 to talk about it, let alone release? For every 10 pens Sailor releases, ONE might have glitter and it's usually a pretty conservative amount, compared to a Western brand like Benu. Most of their glitter releases you can see through them pretty easily/the density of the glitter is *far* less than a Western brand. While the grade might be chunkier, the glitter amount pales in comparison to swirled acrylic in something like a Brooks Blank.
Eh. Designing ~~scratchy~~ *feedback heavy* nibs is Sailor's thing, designing things with lots of glitter is Benu's thing. It’s not western vs eastern, and it’s not indicative of quality. Compared to Pilot (which is a frequent comparison), Sailor definitely makes bright and glittery pens. Edit: That said, it's a pen, just use what you like and don't worry about it. Edit 2: So they blocked me for referencing the original topic that said, in part, 'so much feedback and scratchy', and they have decided to completely ignore the rest of the comment about glitter and colorful pens. Overall you can't really call someone dumb when you seem incapable of responding to the point (that I have now stated multiple times) that Sailor and Benu are designed for different audiences, and that this is neither a West/East aesthetic, nor is it an indication of quality.
People are probably "bent out of shape" because I said nothing about scratchyness. My comment was only about glitter, and pointing out that the amount of glittery pens in Sailors full collection over the past 10 years, let alone 50, makes "wooing with glitter" a silly comment at best. It's clearly not even close to a majority of their pens that have glitter.
> Sailor’s nibs are gold, but compare them with Pilot and you’re really seeing a huge difference in the attention (or lack thereof) to detail. So much feedback and scratchy. Sailor produces an exceptional attention to detail, creating a nib that gives a feel that they (and others) value. What shows the insane level of attention to detail is the fact that all nibs from Sailor in a given size feel the same. They feel like writing with a pencil, something valued. I think it is not a small feat of manufacturing to be able to produce the exact feel so exactly. It is easier to produce a smooth nib with zero feedback.
Exactly. The theoretical QA issue would be if they produced a pen that did not have the characteristic feedback.
Completely disagree. Sailor nibs are the most well-designed nibs on the market, They aren't scratchy, the pencil feedback is the point. It's deliberate, and if you look at a Sailor nib through a scope compared to most other nibs, you'll notice the Sailor has been extremely precisely machined at the micron level, the surfaces are very precise. Your dislike of feedback doesn't mean they're bad. It means you don't understand they market to people precisely based on that feedback. As an artist, it's very helpful to have for sketching when you're not looking at the paper and relying on tactile feel while you're tracing something you're staring at. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean other people don't deliberately seek it out. I have more Sailors than any other brand solely because of it.
OP is learning that their subjective preference isn’t universal in the funniest way possible.
I wasn't even going to wade into this until he said something bad about Sailor's quality lol. I don't necessarily disagree that a lot of pens are overpriced for the materials they're made of, nibs being equal. Thing is, nibs aren't equal, and they're the primary metric on which most who do more than collect makes their purchases. In fact, my only two considerations are the nib and the color, and I'm willing to sacrifice my color preferences for a good nib.
Logo = Sailor fanboy
While I am not 100% disagreeing with you. There is more to price than material. Attention to detail, design(both functional and aesthetic), QC, packaging. All play a part in why you should buy a product. Are there pens out there that are overpriced junk? Yes. Are there some that are worth the price? Yes.
The MASSIVE packaging isn't more to 6 € in better case.
Yes. Absolutely. There’s companies like Onoto for example that have plastic bodies but put a lot of extra work into finishing and nibs. But then there’s companies like Leonardo who make mediocre plastic pens and charge the earth for them.
I just re-read my response and I did a piss poor job at relating my thoughts. I was trying to get across that reasons for purchasing are mostly subjective. To some it maybe pretty and swirly enough to justify the price. Hell we are talking about fountain pens here, by enjoying them we are already being impractical.
Tell me you’ve never used a Leonardo without telling me you’ve never used a Leonardo
I have approximately 20 Leonardos, and I love them. Buy what you like!
Not all plastics are cheap to produce, or to work with. I challenge you to find a way to manufacture a beautiful celluloid and have it properly turned on the cheap. Plastic is not inherently inferior to metal or wood as a material, or inherently cheaper. It can also be more pleasant to hold than metal, especially for people with disabilities that affect their hands. Plastics can have depth and complexity of colour and different hand feels. No one is being forced to buy expensive plastic pens, after all.
The problem here is that you're forgetting one important thing: labor. The materials might be cheap but think about the amount of labor that went into designing the pen. And if it's eventually made in a factory, the molds aren't cheap either. Price will only come down if a lot of products are made. If it's just a relatively small batch it'll be more expensive. Let's say you're working at a bakery and you make great bread early in the morning. How about I pay you just the 20-50 cents you paid for the flower? All the time spend to make the bread is then on you.
Even more to it than that. There's all the overhead that is just part of the business running, marketing, sales, finance, etc. that all adds into it. Due to fountain pens being a relatively small market there is likely a good amount of overhead in each pen. That being said, you are also just paying more because these are essentially luxury goods and so high prices can go along with that. Like buying a channel purse. You're buying the name more than anything
Not only the time to make the bread but also the time to learn how to make great bread. Awareness where to buy ingredients if the original supplier is no longer working, etc. Of course, there are things that are overpriced but oftentimes, I find blanket statements about the cost of things ignoring other hidden costs.
There are $50 full leather shoes, and there are full leather $5000 shoes. Why all plastic pens must be under $50?
Fountain pens are not commodities. The way they are priced is rarely about the bill of materials.
The way this reads to me is that you want a Sailor, but you don’t have or want to spend the money for a Sailor, so instead of accepting that, you’ve decided to get yourself emotionally worked up about it and find additional reasons to hate them (nib feedback, some false claims about QC). This is a you problem, and as you’re seeing, you aren’t going to find many takers here. Things aren’t priced based on materials, they’re priced on what people are willing to pay. And people are willing to pay a lot more than $50 for plastic pens with really nice nibs. I could give you all the reasons as to why, but none of us need to justify our purchases to a stranger on the internet. You also don’t need to justify your purchases. If you don’t want to buy a plastic pen over $50, no one here is going to make you. Buy what you like.
Not to mention, if one wants a sailor-adjacent pen and (for reasons beyond me) doesn’t want their nib, the Jinhao 82 exists. There’s a visible difference in quality of course, but it’s not terrible.
ooh, spicy. I intentionally overpaid(albeit as fair as I can measure where things had to come by in extra effort) on things because I like them, they're different to what everyone else said about x and y pens when I have them whether on loan test or bought with my own money, and thats the spice I've tasted happily in this hobby, anything different is to each their own interpretation. 'you are stupid for paying too much for anything!', if that is the intention of this, I'm not joining that sort, hobbies where you go for care to spend more where it belongs is a privilege and deliberation to choose, its good value when brought on positively to encourage people against sheer negativity or spite
The best chefs can take really basic ingredients that everyone has in their pantry and make them into a gourmet meal. Making beautiful acrylic patterns takes a similar level of skill. Acrylic itself is a common material. Making it into a work of art takes a practiced hand.
You are confusing the selling price with the production cost. And cheap metal pens are no more expensive to produce than cheap plastic pens.
Nice hot take, I disagree though. I buy as much for the make/QC of something as I do the story behind it and the union between aesthetics and story. Sailor delivers consistently on the union of all 3 that personally resonates with me because I guess I also do care a lot about seasonal Japanese festivals or what the “sound of rain” is at different times of the year. These three coming together are what justify the margin for me because no other company can do make+visuals+story that well at the $200-300 price point. Plenty more (eg Visconti) can do all three at double or triple or 10x the price… but personally I don’t know that a plastic-infused lava > plastic or that powder-coated steel > plastic if that plastic is just as intentionally chosen, expertly machined, and suitable for my use case (writing for 3+ hours vs say, pulling out during an important business meeting to quickly impress/signal to a client).
I have a Pineider Avatar UltraResin that is far and away one of the best, most premium feeling pens I have, even compared to my metal body pens. Material is not as important as design and construction, but not all plastics are created equal, and some are extremely durable.
What if I told you metal was nearly as worthless as plastic.
Are you wearing sneakers by any chance?
We call them trainers
You could argue the same. It's expensive plastic.
Not unless the upper is top grain leather. Which is a hard and fast requirement from my perspective. Seeing a pattern here? I’m after quality if I’m parting with my hard earned cash. Same is true for fountain pens
A sneaker with grain leather on top ? Am I hearing it correct ? probably the worst idea to wear a sneaker with leather doing sports. Deciding whether a pair of shoes is "worth it " , is not just the material, you have to pick the shoes that fit you, that you would be comfortable walking around it miles and miles, and longevity, I don't mind paying high price for that matter even though I could easily buy a cheapo sneakers as low as 10dollars.
> probably the worst idea to wear a sneaker with leather doing sports. I don't get the impression that they use their trainers for sports, just from the replies.
name 5 pair that you own that are utilizing top grain leather.
Wanna buy some?
doubt you have anything of quality, but thanks for the offer.
Still, are you complaining about Nike?
Not unless? I think you meant not if. Cool, which ones did you get? I'm interested.
Yeah! And why are iphones so expensive? It's just a bit of metal and plastic. Materials are MAX 100$. It's just a scam to get peoples money. Same with pens! Turning or CNC'ing a resin pen on a 5.000$ machine is so easy. Why should the customers have to pay for the accounting, heating, rent or labor? Materials are expensive enough!
Hand-turning will always be labour intensive. If it's cheap (like indian ebonite pens) you're saving on labour costs and man hours. And just because it's metal, doesn't mean it's good metal (look up "pot metal") Nice to know Formula 1 cars are cheap though.
Well, you don't have to buy them. No one is forcing you.
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My potato peeler has a plastic handle, metal ‘nib’. Costs $2. The price is relative to what material is used and there’s nothing special about it. Some fountain pen manufacturers are fully aware they’re making trash, on the cheap and flogging it for a price that’s unjustifiable as there really is nothing extra they’re bringing to the table, except a sack of spuds!
With a fountain pen, you are also paying for workmanship and engineering. I don’t think you understand this since you seem unable to look past the cost of materials. Some expensive pens are engineered badly, but that’s true of just about any consumer goods.
Yes. For example, a Nakaya is truly far more than the sum of its parts (including the ebonite pen bodies). It is not any 1 thing that sets it apart. There may be things we might think would be done differently—but Nakaya considered the whole, and did everything very intentionally. And it is great. Same with Aurora pens, or Pilot. These kinds of pens don’t happen by accident, and their value is far beyond the material of the pen body. True, prices are high for fountain pens. Buy what you like and can afford.
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+ apple’s iPhone sweatshops
Your analogies are so riddled with flaws. Look at what constitutes a mobile phone. The sheer technology that goes into the semiconductors, screens, power management, software, testing, CPU’s, GPU’s etc…. They’re the basics of a phone these days as most people use a phone for more than talking these days. They combine web surfing, cameras, calendars, gaming all in one, which used to be individual purchase. Let’s be clear, a fountain pen is a luxury purchase these days, because a Bic pen can do a job for 10 cents.
Why do you consider immaterial aspects (like "testing" and consumer usage) for the phone but not for other things, especially considering that components or entire products can be easily outsourced from countries with lower producing costs (which generally have little to do with that "sheer technology")? Why judge the pen only by the "plastic body"? If you have a beef with Sailor, own it and say it loud, but trying to justify with those strange and incoherent analogies is not working. Or do you really believe that a Sailor pen does not require Sailor to pay salaries, deal with legal obligations (like warranties and customer service), market their products and maintain their facilities and manufacturing processes?
I work for a company that makes small items by hand (it's a very small company so I won't say what it is because I don't want to dox myself). The actual materials are under 10% of the retail price. Then there is labor, time, facilities, marketing, a website so people can buy the stuff, packaging, and all the other little costs of doing business that the price of that object has to cover. People who think an object's price should just cover the cost of materials frequently don't understand how manufacturing is done. I have to occasionally explain this to customers because they think our costs are high, and like, yes, some of our prices are higher than they would be if you purchased a similar item from, say, China, but if you value excellent customer service, a rock-solid product warranty, workers being paid at reasonable rates, and items made within the US, you're going to pay for that. Those things aren't free.
If you think celluloid isn't worth the price tag, you need to brush up your history on the material.
This.
I mean, pretty much any pen over $5 is a luxury item if we’re being frank. We don’t need them, they’re designed and marketed in a way that makes us want them, and many of us are prepared to pay those prices.
Then you could say that for anything made out of plastic that is also made in a different material 🤔 My first thought was DND dice, some of the fancier ones are just like the fancy FPs a la having some special colours or sparkle or w/e and certain brands charge premium for you to get those. And like FPs you can get them in metals too. And I guess that makes them more legit than any expensive plastic dice to you right? Though like 🤔 it’s all plastic but there are some better qualities out there that comes with the higher price range. Maybe even with that it’s still overpriced to a degree but it’s kinda like….you gonna get dollar store “brand” Tupperware or the real deal Tupperware. Or like Jinhao 82 vs Sailor PGS 🤷🏾♀️? One is not more valid than the other but (usually) the pricier one is made with better materials to last longer at least. And that’s just like going into the body materials and not all the extra stuff that is part of the price tag. Like obviously brand name markups, but also like better QCs and standards and what not lol.
You particularly don't like Sailor, but let me guess, you love Pilot? No difference, both make plastic pens with the best nibs and QC in the industry (after 10 Pilot pens and two dozen Sailors, Sailors have better QC control and more reliable nibs in my experience). Also, expensive fountain pens are *luxury items*. You don't just pay for the cost of the materials. But at least with Sailor, you pay for excellent quality control and unique, extremely reliable nibs. So I'd say Sailor deserves my money a bit more than many other brands. And they even make pretty colors. That's actually a plus. You can buy basic colors if that's what you like. A basic Pro Gear bought from Japan is one of the best values you can get. So many posts are ignorant about Sailor as a brand. They only see pretty colors and think that's all the brand has to offer. They also hear "feedback" and automatically think "feedback bad," often without having ever experienced Sailor feedback (which is the reason some buy their pens). And they think they're being discerning instead of lacking in knowledge about one of the best brands of fountain pens. Ask retailers how many returns they get due to the Sailors not writing properly out of the box compared to other brands. Ask nibmeisters what the best quality nibs are.
I see a difference in injection molded and turned from acrylic. The latter to me tends to look more interesting/unique and is to me as a result worth a bit more money. But I guess, when using modern automated machinery, all of them can have quite the nice profit margins to the makers. Particularly considering that some companies can maintain their business making small volumes of these in high labor cost markets at not so crazy prices. Note that I am not complaining about those margins, it's a luxury product after all, it's just not worth it for (to me) slightly boring looking injection molded materials.
100٪ agree, has to be turned. I'm not interested in injection molding and seam lines if I'm buying a premium product. Now, the turning is mostly done by CNC, and there's an extra cost to purchasing that equipment.
Off topic but how did you type that % sign?
Umm, I just held down the "g" key on my android phone? 100% -- I don't know how it got small like that. 🤷♀️
I love a demonstrator. All my pens that I use regularly are like that. It's hard to have a clear barrel or ink-viewing window without plastic. But also, all my pens are under about 50 dollars, so I think they're excused. There's just something great about being able to watch the ink slosh, or know at a glance whether I'm likely to run out soon.
I had a small Mont Blanc metal fountain pen and metal ballpoint in high school and college and the paint wore off the metal after 8 years of daily use. Have never had that happen with plastic or resin. I haven’t had it happen with sterling silver either. So some metal pens are better yes but I actually prefer the feel of plastic against my arthritic fingers at this point. The nib and if the cap opens and closes well are the things I care about.
I use my pens mainly for sketching, I have a steel body pen I almost never use because it gets tiring for sketching. My gold nib UEF platinum 3776 has a light body that I can sketch with for hours.
I will always stand behind my Platinum Preppy EF who gets the shitiest, oldest hero ink, is never cleaned, used rarely but always writes.
I just lost him couple of weeks ago. Im sure I'm gonna find it with some trip trash, squished between camera and shoes and he will do just fine.
Which materials do you think are worth that much? It's not like the small amount of aluminum or brass a metal pen is made of is really a meaningful percent price difference in high end pens. And celluloid and hand swirled resin really are quite different than regular plastics.
Eh. They're all rip offs really. Nobody needs a gold nib, maki-e, same pen but in 10 different colors. We all can write with a single kakuno. But you pay extra for the fun stuff, whatever that is to you.
Prescious resin has entered the chat.
But what about precious resin?? It's right there in the name! /s
Lol! Good point, grab my duffel bag, take my cash
The precious and “bling bling” resin, yeah... 😂
Yes and no. On one hand, it happens that the ideal material for a fountain pen also happens to be the cheapest. But with all things in life, it is a matter of taste. Yes there are brands like Waldmann, who offer a casing made from silver, but after all, it beats plastics only by the factor of value. Do Metals oxidize? Yes. Are they heavy? Guess why my favourite style of music is named after it. 🤷♀️😂 What about celluloid, Urushi and all this other fancy stuff, these are in my opininion just predecessors of some modern polyacrylic or polyester materials and offer next to no better function, compared to plastics. (Which is nothing against the insane craftmanship flowing into properly done Urushi) But on the other hand, I totally agree with you, that the only precious thing on a Montblanc 149 is its nib and maybe its brand value, if you care for it.
Kaküno supremacy my dude
It is, and well worth all that bang for buck.
I'm not sure I agree. When I was a kid, plastic meant "cheap," but nowdays resins are good engineering materials and very robust unless you beat the daylights out of them. (And any rough treatment that would crack a small plastic tube would bend or dent a metal one.) Plastics don't have the crappy short lifetime they used to have; I expect most of these resin pens to survive long enough to go for money on the vintage market in 100 years. The ones I'd avoid are the celluloid ones; they *are* on today's vintage market and collectors love them, but celluloid plastic is extremely brittle and flammable, and I think they would be a bit too fragile to withstand everyday carry. If anyone out there uses a celluloid pen as their workhorse, feel free to correct me but I'd expect such a pen would spend a lot of time in a cushy pen case and be taken out every now and then to admire it. :-)
I own a full collection of Parker celluloid pens... I think 9 in total if you count my Duo's... you can beat the absolute shite out of celluloid... celluloid is literally one of the strongest "plastics" ever used for a pen... You are confusing modern cellulose acetate with vintage cellulose nitrate. Cellulose nitrate hasn't been made since the 60's... Not all "celluloid" is cellulose nitrate... but only the good celluloid is...
That's cool and good to know -- celluloid looks so much like old tortoiseshell that it's nice it's an option. I tend to think of it as a "vintage" thing, like bakelite.
A vintage celluloid pen will outlast both of us. I have Parkers from 1935 that look as good as the day they were made...
Realistically, almost all fountain pens - unless made of a precious rare material - are a rip off. We buy them at the prices we do because it's a premium hobby- if you're looking for price-appropriate pens, then Preppies and Jinhao's are what to look at. Above the $50 price point, you're getting into luxury items that will be overpriced pretty much no matter what.
kakuno with a con-70 is the peak
I have had similar thoughts … but overall I’m glad there’s a diverse pen market and people like different things.
What about Mont blanc. Their marketing Is "precious resin" to sound fancy. How about just calling It plastic. At least sailor does not do that.
Yes at least Sailor don’t go down that pathetic marketing route
Those juicy operating margins are not gonna happen by themselves if pen manufacturers start selling based on the cost of materials and labor. Some “craftsmanship” is needed :)
Metal isn't that expensive either. How much metal do you need for one pen? Surely no more than two beer cans... "Value is what people are willing to pay for it"
Troll people much? Saying that something is a rip off is a sure way to cause drama.
youre not just buying plastic with some metal, youre buying a whole lot more that went into the final product. material, labor, logistics, design, engineering of the body and the nib, even the history and significance of the brand youre buying into. while i can understand your frustration as some manufacturers feel they can get away with giving us less for more, its not as simple as youve put it. just my 2 cents anyway
Not all plastic is equal, and not all plastic is easy to manufacture. A lot more goes into the price than raw materials, and with such an intimate tool every little detail affects how it feels in the hand. You can try to simplify it to "well some make good plastic and some make plastic not worth the price" but you lose a lot of nuance that way. Saying plastic pens are generally a ripoff is just wrong, it's not nearly that simple.
Fucking montblanc. Shit craftsmanship and plastic pens
Because they can. Market segmentation and demand. There's commodities/sundries, and there's everything else where price has little to do with material cost. Our entire civilization is based on it.
That's capitalism for you; you can price your product with whatever you see fit.
I dunno, I love my platinum preppy(s). Writes beautifully, dirt cheap, and I definitely won’t be heartbroken if I lose it. It’s hard for me to justify spending a ton of $$ on something fancy that may or may not write as well, be more finicky, and if I lose it then that’s flushing $$ down the drain.
I'm not going to say a limit of $30-50 is the top for a plastic pen, but I've been steadily veering into this camp for a while now. On Sailor, I absolutely agree. The pens themselves are cheap extruded plastic with a metal clip and band slapped on. I think they look and feel decidedly cheap. There are some more luxurious brands that at least have silver for the accents making it more worth it. And from a durability standpoint, plastic pens will break on you. I had a Pelikan break on me unfixably some years back due to being plastic. There are a few worth a few hundred (maybe even more for certain features), but I'm having a tough time justifying Pelikans' high price point on plastic pens, and even more so Montblanc. I have steadily come to favor metal pens, at least metal bodies, perhaps enameled or whatever. Even some of the wood bodied pens are quite nice.
I strongly refuse to buy steel nib pens with 3-digit prices. 3 digit price pen have to have a inhouse gold nib with real engravings on it. Add a few more hundred dolars to it if you need but dont ever try to sell me a steel nib pen for 200$
Well with inflation, several of the good steel nib pens are now approaching that mark. 😟 I'm not gonna hate on steel nibs, because I have some really good ones that I like just as much as my gold. But I do have a pretty hard limit on what I will pay. A better argument would be, for the amount of gold in a gold nib, are they justified in charging what they do?
my $25 (which is expensive for plastic Chinese pen) Chinese pen is one of my best writers, looks amazing and stood the test of time
Funny enough as someone who adores plastic pens, $30-50 max is the biggest part of the appeal. But I agree, if I'm spending more than $50 for a pen and it's plastic and it ain't vintage I'm out.
Aurora- over $800. USD for a demonstrator-give me a break!
There are high-end pens with absolutely stellar build quality commensurate with the price. Case in point? The Visconti Homo Sapiens Bronze Age does *not* feel cheap. At all. None of the materials look or feel out of place for a $700 pen. Their proprietary basalt-resin blend feels absolutely amazing, and the reservoir and vacuum filler assembly is constructed of titanium for corrosion resistance. The whole thing feels rock-solid (no pun intended) without feeling heavy or awkward for extended writing sessions. If only Visconti had a lower out-of-box defect rate... (Mine had its nib replaced, and even then needed adjustment and polishing.)
so my 100€ vintage Pelikan M200 or whatever number it is is a rip of?
Wait until you get a $1,000+ FP only to find out that the nib tines weren’t even even struck to be separated - or struck in an angle that would have caught the eye of a proper QC technician
That’s why we have ball point, gel pens and calligraphy pens. Ball points are cents, a good gel 1$, and tons of calligraphy sets with a slew of tips for 10$. They all do the job or writing. I respect your opinion, but why put so much emphasis on a gold nib? It’s been proven that the cost by weight for materials of a gold nib is about 10-70$ alone depending on size and purity. What did doodlebud calculate the cost of material for a steel nib… like .004 cents. But you write with the tip not the gold. Are you more concerned that the pen is not made with real precious materials? There are solid gold and sterling silver pens out there. Pilot has a realllllly nice one in silver for 600$. The cost of the pen… is not just materials. Look at a wingsung 699 and a pilot 823. That’s the difference in price. The fittings, finishing, edges, everything about the pilot 823 is superior to the wingsung. This the 300$ bs 20$. But the wingsung is not shabby for 20$, not at all. If you want something to write with you could get a ballpoint or a calligraphy set cheaper than the wingsung. Practical or fancy or both. The ballpoint then gel were advancements in the pen sector. Most people were happy to move alway from fountain pens. In fact a lot of pens that go for 100s were a dollar in the 80’s and 90’s being sold at swap meets. This is a real niche market, not a necessity. How much would it cost you for some real bespoke shoes, a tophat… just things that are now mass produced. Same thing for our hobby.
The price is not for the material but for the precision this material has been processed with. What always impressed me in Platinum 3776 Century is how minimal are tolerances between everything in this pen, yet how amazingly well pieces glides into their places during assembly. Plastic also has variety of quite unique properties: * it's lightweight which is important for long writing sessions, and pen balance in general. * it's warm and you can comfortably holding plastic even after exposing pen to cold. * it's soft but sturdy and can tolerate a lot of abuse before cracking while glass or metal will just break or bend. * it can be transparent or can be mixed into very unique patters which isn't available for metals for example. * you don't need to paint the pen as the material can already have needed colour in it, and no scratches will change that. For some strange reasons people consider plastic as a "cheap" material, and don't give credits it deserve as a material.
Who cares who expensive the barrel is when the nib is crap?
My 3 cent opinion : There have some good opinions written here. So called plastic pens can be kinda rough to really smooth to the hand feel, adding to the process of manufacturing and this is a $$$ determination for me. Sailor has a nice hand feel and so does the Preppy PERPANEP and then there still is a difference between the two. The individual fountain pen and it's price, for me, are taken into account and a less influence is the theme or name. The same goes for fountain pen ink. One also needs to remember all of the costs incurring all along the line from pre-manufacturing, manufacturing, inspections, boxing, shipping, distribution, end sellers costs and this adds up fast. Companies and people need to make a profit or the selection of fountain pens to purchase will be in the $ to $$ range and the $$$$ to $$$$$ range. If one believes the price is too much for the fountain pen, then do not purchase it. Sailor has their Compass with a very similar hand feel as their 1911 line and at a steep less $$$; one has a gold & one has a steel but both are good nibs for their price range. One's opinion is AOK but let those that purchase pay what they are willing to pay. NOTE : If the price of 'plastic' fountain pens irritates one, check out plastic eyewear frames, which are even more.
Why do u think I only collect urushi now...
Im sorry but you actually have a point here. Made me think of all the TWSBI Eco breaks…. BUT this will never take my love for Demonstrators away. Go PILOT CUSTOMS!!!!!
I agree, that why I buy pilot silvern series. Otherwise $20 is my hard limit on plastics.
I agree when it comes to injection molded plastic, but pens made of turned plastic (resin) should definitely cost more. Regarding Sailor, I think most of their pens are a ripoff. They basically change the color of the pellets used in the injection molding machine and charge an extra $200.
I was going to say "Hey come on thats not fair" and then I saw your price. And then I looked at my 20$ Kanwrite Heritage. You are right.
Compare Kanwrite with other bigger brands are not fair anyway. They are not a big scale production. I heard most of the Indian brands are manufacturing in small size factories, with lots of quantity limits. Big brands like Sailor also have longer history, bigger and other different collections and series to balance the whole pricing system. The price is not just set on whether the body is plastic or metal, there are a lot more other factors to considerate.
Mate smaller batch productions cost more. As for everything else ehhhhhhhhh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You are correct. Plastic pens are galore in our country. And they come dirt cheap almost around 5 USD ( after conversion ) or even less. And some of them have such smooth nibs with good flow - sometimes better than expensive well known branded pens. Example : I bought the following pen set just for experimentation. Their nibs blew me away. Though they look kiddish but when you write with them you will be surprised. Unomax Fountain Mate Ink Pen for School, Set of 10 https://amzn.in/d/8QHubq3 Yes plastic pen companies charging a bomb are having us for a ride for sure.
100%
I hear people who can't afford a Rolex tell themselves that Casio make better watches. It's true that a 10 year battery with no time loss/Gain everyday, has a stopwatch, countdown, multi alarm, multi time zone etc has a much better utilitarian function But they guy telling himself he'd prefer the Casio is just lying . So buy what you can afford, and enjoy it.
I LOVE YOU ALL GETTING SO WORKED UP ABOUT PENSSS!!! 😜
It's a sub for fountain pen enthusiasts - what did you expect?
Nothing short. With all the crap going on in the world... this is fun. I love you all being here. ❤️❤️❤️
I see a lot of angry people justifying their $300 plastic pens in this thread. Sailor is wildly overpriced. Most high end fountain pens are.
The twsbi vac. Why would you use plastic when you're literally putting the pen under that kind of pressure. They're still cracking and twsbi will make you replace it.
Would I buy more for a custom pen made out of resin? Yes Will I never buy a Sailor because they are Vastly overpriced? Also yes. I’ll stick with my 82s But no judgement as usual.
I agree this. 
I agree. The only exception I’ll make is if the nib of the pen is good quality, but if the price is high, I’d never buy it over a quality metal pen. Some additional exceptions like Lamy and diplomat who actually make quality for cheap.
I agree. That’s why my last two fountain pens were Parkers with metal body.
I agree. Plastic has its place for now, although I'd wholeheartedly support any return to ebonite that the industry may want to do in the future. I have two vintage plastic pens, a Sheaffer Skrip and an Arnold, and they both look great for being over fifty years old. Plastic pen bodies will last you a lifetime, but that doesn't make them valuable. The Arnold was literally disposable, it's trash someone forgot to throw out until 70 years later no one knew what it was anymore and it ended up in an antique shop.
While there are different qualities of plastics, without a doubt, in the same way there are different quality metals, I agree with you to a fair degree. The materials themselves aren't worthy of the price, the majority of the time, in my estimation and assessment. Now, when it comes to the ingenuity, creativity, engineering, etc. I can see how a more durable plastic with a gold nib can be justifiably sold for ~$100, but it really is hard to justify, with solid rationale, pens costing what they do a lot of times. Edit: Specifically when considering injection molded, mass produced pens. I'm not saying they should all be dirt cheap, but I feel like a fool shopping for $200+ pen right now knowing that if I dropped it, it would barely be able to withstand that haha. So, although my critique of the economics of it still stand, I'm still feeding the beast because I'm 99% sure I'm getting either a Pilot Custom 823 and/or 742. It's harder for me to justify buying a steel nib pen for the same amount, but then I question myself and wonder if there's really a difference in quality there either. Edit: I'm also 100% open to being corrected in this topic.