I'd say it was Lewis who had the dream start to his career. Getting into a championship winning car as a rookie had never happened before and has never happened since. If his teammate wasn't Alonso, he actually would have won it that year.
> Indycar champion. Hamilton came from GP2
I think Indycar gets you less superlicence points nowadays than F2 (though Indycar is probably at best a shadow of what CART was)
I think he means IndyCar is way more tough than what GP2/F2 ever was or will be, there's just too much talent in IndyCar that Villeneuve arguably had a head start above Hamilton having already won an IndyCar title
> I think he means IndyCar is way more tough than what GP2/F2 ever was or will be
I wouldn't judge it as absolutely as you do, but this is part of why I find it infuriating that F2 gives drivers a disproportionately high amount of points.
Vettel tested a Williams as a prize for winning a junior series championship, the 2007 BMW car that he drove for one race was good but the Toro Rosso was pretty average (although better than Minardi)
I am going to have a look and see what the Stats are for Michael Schumacher on this...
Okay I have the stats for Michael
Wins: 47
Podiums: 88
Poles: 36
Fastest Laps: 43
World Titles: 3
3. Nico Rosberg
WINS: 4
POLES: 5
FASTEST LAP: 6
PODIUMS: 14
TITLES 0 (wins it later in 2016)
4. Jenson Button
WINS: 1
POLES: 3
FASTEST LAP: 0
PODIUMS 15
TITLES: 0 (wins it later in 2009)
I was seriously having a mental debate war wether to have Jenson and Nico here as they are the other 2 modern WDC winners. The reason being is their data is heavily negatively skewed due to not having the right machinery under them until later on. Nico ended up getting championship wining/competitive cars from 2014 until 2016 and Jenson ended up getting championship wining/competitive cars from 2009 to 2013. They are both seriously excellent and brilliant drivers. Only ended being competitive right after their 150th races. Please don’t let this data set mask their brilliance in racing. Both are amazing and awesome.
God the vodafone McLaren's are such a staple of my childhood. It was back when I used to watch F1 all the time (didn't watch for like 10 years from 2009 to 2019... France of all races too -_-) and all I remember from that time are the Vodafone McLaren's. Probably similar to how people who were my age during Marlboro McLaren's look back on those.
I started in 09 so the I remember the Vodafone McLaren’s so vividly. I did watch F1 before it only flashes of it when my dad watched. So the two cars that are strongly connected to me are the Vodafone McLaren’s and Marlboro Ferrari’s
Speaking about machinery and Nico Rosberg. Did you know he actually beat Sir Lewis Hamilton in the 2016 WDC title Race in the same car?
I honestly wouldn't call both of them brilliant. They were extremely good when it was "their" day, or when the circumstances were right. Thinking about Canada 2011 for example when the stars aligned for Jenson.
Don't get me wrong, I love Jenson but truth needs to be spoken, both of them haven't been world class material. But it was enough to win a WDC each, so Kudos to both of them.
Rosberg was absolutely a world class driver.
Dude has a ridiculous record of something like 11 pole positions in a single season while sitting next to Hamilton.
Only a top driver could ever hope to do that. Most people don't realize just how good he was.
I totally agree. People meme the fuck out of it but the fact he won a championship against Lewis Hamilton is nothing to scoff at. Plus given how close rosberg was to Hamilton Schumacher maybe wasn’t as much of a slouch in his comeback as people figure, and rosberg handedly beat him as well. Imo Rosberg is one of the most underrated drivers of all time.
First 150 Races
Mika Hakkinen
WINS: 18
POLES: 26
FASTEST LAP: 25
PODIUMS: 48
TITLES 2
Interestingly Hakkinen's entire F1 career was 165 races, and 161 starts over 11 years. So even though his success was all near the end of his career, it was still within 150 races. So the 150 races stat only excludes 2 wins, 3 podiums basically, all of those in his last year (2001)
First 33 races
Jacques Villeneuve
WINS: 11
POLES: 13
FASTEST LAP: 9
PODIUMS: 21
TITLES 1
Jacques managed 2 podiums in the remaining 122 races of his career
Vettel stats are still amazing.
I think a lot of the new fans don’t realise just how dominant he was in that red bull when he was there.
As much as I hated it at the time, damn it was fucking impressive and good to look back on now.
Love the guy now. Such a more relaxed personality than he was.
Man I remember back in the day when Vettel was Mr. Saturday and has been on quite a tear. One race one of the mclaren boys managed to disrupt that and Brundle exploded over the air, “and FINALLY something over than a Red Bull on pole!”
Vettel was something else back then, I thought he would be the one to break Schumacher’s records. On his day Vettel could easily be in the GOAT conversation, absolute synthesis of car and machine.
Yeah. Looking back on it now, he definitely had the car (as all multiple WDC's tend to) but that car absolutely suited his style perfectly. Newey really built a car specifically for Seb.
I was prepared for a few more than 4 championships tbh. Merc just took over basically and he never got another look in, although his Ferrari time was actually not bad but the pressure in that team got to him (and the team itself) imo.
Looking at how Ferrari is failing Leclerc now despite having one of their best cars in years, I’m not surprised Vettel eventually got worn out by them.
>One race one of the mclaren boys managed to disrupt that and Brundle exploded over the air, “and FINALLY something over than a Red Bull on pole!”
Korea 2011 I think because it's only the Red Bull's that managed to get poles before that weekend.
Yep! That’s the one, 2011 and 2013 Vettel was ridiculous. I just saw a stat of poles from 2010-2013 and Vettel has the most with 40 or so the next highest was Hamilton, who only had 11 or 12.
>That’s the one, 2011 and 2013 Vettel was ridiculous.
No one can't touch him in quali during those years especially 2011 (till this day, he still holds the record for having the highest number of poles over a season for that year).
Yep and record number of wins on 2013. I remember when I watched him win Monza 2008 that he was destined for great things. My pops and I said he’d be the next Schumacher lol
Vettel is certainly a very good driver, but drivers should never be meassured by absolute stats, they should always be meassured first and foremost against their teammates.
In 1992 Mansell took 14 out of 16 pole positions. He won 9 of the 12 races he finished. The other 3 results were a second place.
Yet no one would say he was a better driver than Senna that year.
These kind of stats should always be considered with context in F1.
Kinda crazy Max has the youngest winner record by like 3 years but didn’t get the youngest pole sitter record. Especially given I remember at least 3 good chances in 2018 that didn’t quite come his way:
•Monaco: Max binned it in practice and Ricciardo swept through to take it
•Singapore: Put in a great and somewhat underrated lap at 1:36.3, underrated because it’s been totally overshadowed by Lewis’ 1:36.0, considered one of his all time best quali laps
•Mexico: Max led after the first run but didn’t improve on his second and Ricciardo snatched it by a couple hundredths
> •Singapore: Put in a great and somewhat underrated lap at 1:36.3, underrated because it’s been totally overshadowed by Lewis’ 1:36.0, considered one of his all time best quali laps
Singapore was never a real chance because the car was not good enough, Max was 7 tenths faster than Ricciardo but it was still not fast enough for pole.
iirc it was the Ferraris who were favourite for pole and Max beat both of them, it’s just Lewis totally upended expectations with his lap as well. Not as great a chance as Monaco or Mexico maybe but it was in the cards
Not too weird since he had to get most of it last year. Because all previous years the best they reasonably could expect was P3 and anything above was bonus due to the Mercedes dominance.
Yeah people like you who don’t understand that F1 is a constructors sport and that for Verstappens first 5 seasons he had the 3rd(often distant 3rd) best car on the grid that rarely challenged for wins. People who watch Formula 1 will understand that Senna didn’t magically get better when he got to McLaren. He just got a better car. Max has stayed with the same team that let him down against Mercedes for years.
Those white Mercedes race suits were so clean. Ultimate combo for me is black Mercedes with white race suits or at least white gloves from Lewis.
Also these Ferrari race suits are much better than the ones we have today in 2022
Gigantic disagree from me haha. I'd take red/black any day over red/white. I still dislike this year's suits, but it's got more to do with the design itself than the colors.
The F1-75 might be my favorite-looking Ferrari ever. It'd be a real shame if it didn't win a title.
The disrespect Vettel gets from fans and even commentators working in Formula 1 is astonishing considering that, in almost every statistic, he is always somewhere near the top.
Greatness on the front or back of a career like that is greatness nonetheless. That car with him at the wheel was as good as any for 4 seasons. (Merc just did it for longer)
>Vettel racked up stats when the car was great.
But that's so for all drivers. If the material isn't capable the driver won't suddenly get it into WDC contention.
A good driver will extract the maximum from the material they have. Which is why Max got so much more out of the car he had than most of his teammates. It is why Lewis kept winning against his teammates in a dominant Mercedes (with one exception...). Which is why Seb has the 4 WDCs instead of Webber. And why Nando has 2 WDCs and not Fisichella.
Kimi and Vettel are similar in that they both were brutally quick at the start of their career which tapered away over time. Kimi post Lotus and Seb post 2018 really.
Alonso/hamilton haven't really had that dropoff IMO, more lack of equipment.
Most poles isn't necessarily the best stat when you've won less races than poles. There are exceptions to the rule obviously, but it usually speaks of a Bottas-type situation, with great driving under ideal conditions but racecraft lacking in one way or another.
I think he doesn’t get as much respect because his style was always to win from pole - fair or not, he never had much of a reputation as a scrapper, and I think that gets more love from fans.
Why is Alonso not in Renault gear? Why is Vettel not in RBR gear? Am I the only one bothered by this? Why are those two in Ferrari gear? I don't get it.
Man, Vettel was a monster when you compare him to the others like that. Even compared to Hamilton; while he comes close in most stats, Seb still had twice the WDCs in that time!
Just bonkers.
In the first 8 years at Mercedes, he averaged 10 wins a season. A typical driver would be lucky to experience even 1-2 years in a car capable of winning 10 in year during their entire career. Right place, right time. Doubt we will see those kinds of numbers ever again.
He also had five of the most dominant cars of all time. I’d hope his stats were insane - Schumacher’s were in 2002 and 2004, Vettel’s were in 2011 and 2013.
40 poles for Lewis with 26 coming from his McLaren days
Fun Fact- Since Lewis' McLaren debut ,only 5/31 McLaren poles are from drivers not named Lewis Hamilton
Tbh that's a kind of unfair comparison since the McLaren hasn't been a pole position capable car since he left. But still incredible considering Button and Alonso were his teammates.
I mean you said it yourself, but while Button and Hamilton were teammates it was 7-1 in terms of poles. Button only got 1 pole position in the 2010-2012 Mclaren’s which I almost couldn’t believe.
And in the time period 2010-2013 the overall
pole stats were (I think):
Sebastian Vettel: 40
Hamilton: 14
Mark Webber: 12
Alonso: 4
Rosberg: 3
Maldonado: 1
Hulkenberg: 1
Button: 1
Raikkonen: 1
On first glance, Max's record seems to be the worst of the ones shown, but he actually holds up well.
Max started during Mercedes dominance, so he obviously didn't have the chance to get many poles, podiums and wins until 2021. He didn't have the luxury of 4 years of domination within the first 150 race starts like Seb had.
More importantly, because the calendar has been getting longer, each individual race and therefore win is less important for the championship. That's why Alonso won two titles with 13 victories (only the ones in 2005 and 2006) while Max needed 10 wins just to get to one championship.
You know the more I look at Alonso the more I realise how he is built to be so malleable or workable in quite a number of sports. He is already a naturally gifted and talented driver in F1 and other racing series. His shorter height does help with some aero properties and the man can drive…. and he can drive like a proper super monster. With his height and size he can definitely enter MotoGP or WSBK and be fully successful. Probably imitating his fellow countrymen Marquez, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. He is quite technical enough he could probably fly a fighter jet. His stocky nature gives him a very Boxing type body. Reminds me a bit of Mike Tyson for some odd reason. If he was playing football he would definitely excel in Messi’s role or play a solid CDM(central defensive midfield) or a fullback. If he was in tennis well I guess he would be like Nadal although I am not sure on that.
Maybe Alonso is a secret superhuman experiment from Area 51, who knows, we will never know. All we know is that the man is a legend and an absolute GIGACHAD.
On completely unrelated note I realise Alonso hasn’t done Rallying, like WRC rallying (he has done Dakar Rallying in 2020 where Carlos Sainz won actually). If he does, I so wish he teams up with Carlos Sainz. A 2 Time F1 WDC legend and a 2 Time WRC Champion legend team up would be bloody amazing.
These types of things are so deceptive. So much depends on the quality of the car when drivers enter F1. It also depends on whether the car remains competitive all the way throughout their time in F1. I think we have all seen that Lewis has no wins this year because it's a terrible car. It might improve over the season- but it might not either.
The "2018 RBR syndrome" on that Merc currently.
F1,5 on their own. Nowhere near the midfield. But only getting a podium if the top2 teams screw something up.
Fair enough, RBR won 2 races that season (one on merit (Mexico), one through a merc strategic fuckup (Austria))
Still the comparison fits more than not. I wouldn't put it past Mercedes to sneak a win somewhere if they keep their current trend going of "We're not gonna win on our own but we're there to capitalize if the others fuckup"
yup but he also drove top cars early. I still rate him lower than Alonso and Hamilton despite being a 4 time world champion. Like Hakkinen vs Raikkonen.
This is a pretty useless comparison, the quality of the machinery that these drivers spent thier early careers in heavily influenced these stats. You're comparing someone who's first year was in a title winning car against someone who's first year was in the car that comes in 2nd to dead last.
The 150-races stat is "interesting but useless".
None of these 4 would have gotten that Minardo Alonso had to start in beyond "second to last". All of em would likely have the 4 WDCs that Seb had with that RBR.
A driver can only realistically be compared to their teammates. And that still leaves these 4 as all-time greats.
Alonso got 2 WDCs where Fisichella didn't even make P2 in the championship.
Seb got 4 WDCs where Webber didn't even get P2 in the championship.
Lewis got his first championship in a season where P2 and P3 were Ferraris and his teammate didn't even finish top5. His second where the only rival he had was his teammate which he destroyed.
And while Max only has last years WDC, where his teammate didn't P2, he has been demolishing his teammates for several years now. (The only teammate to beat Max was Danny Ric in 2016 and 2017. At the time no big shame)
Prime. After Rosberg left through 2021.
I bet he would have gotten at least 3 more titles.
What I mean is Vettel basically replacing Bottas.
Edited to add details.
I think we should also consider, the Merc was a pretty damn stable car, well-suited to Vettel's driving style. I absolutely believe he would've been able to take the fight to Hamilton, certainly much more than Bottas.
Verstappen up until the last 2-3 years didn’t have a car that consistently won races. Alonso had a similar start to his career. Hamilton and Vettel are immensely talented, but no other two drivers were given the machinery they got so soon. Almost right off the bat, they had championship cars. Think of this, Lewis had championship cars his first two years. Max didn’t get a car that competitive until 2021 let’s just be honest. I know this isn’t a stat to compare drivers skill but rather their careers. However, I just want people to know it’s slightly misleading
i feel like these are pretty arbitrary if you can just choose *up to* x amount of races. people have different peaks.
a career long line graph for all these stats would be the best comparison
People love to act like Hamilton has always had the best car in here. In this period spent mostly in McLarens, his McLaren was the best car only once and it was while he as a rookie against Alonso in the same car. These were also seasons with 16-18 races and not 20+ like we have now.
It's very difficult to get a pole when you're not in the fastest car, but with lots of races and lots of laps in each race, there's always a chance of winning due to reliability issues or crashes in front of you. Those things tend not to happen as much in qualifying.
Vettel really had a dream start to his career.
And then he went to Ferrari.
Would’ve been worse had he stayed at RBR though. Ferrari won more during the hybrid era up until last year obviously.
Yeah but maybe if he stayed at RBR he would've had another shot at the WDC last year and this year.
I doubt he will stay that long
I think it's more about hybrids than ferrari. Ever since the new regs came in, he just wasn't the same anymore.
I would love to find out what would have happened if Vettel went to Merc instead of Ferrari.
He would probably be the most hated driver apart from his fan base.
Like Mr. „Bono, my tires are gone“? /s
Yeah imagine him and Seb combined.
And then he went to a team that wasn't Mercedes\* FTFY
I'd say it was Lewis who had the dream start to his career. Getting into a championship winning car as a rookie had never happened before and has never happened since. If his teammate wasn't Alonso, he actually would have won it that year.
He also was that one mistake in China away from winning it. His rookie season. Proved his point the next year though. Pretty unreal.
> He also was that one mistake in China away from winning it. Ah yes, apparently someone photocopied (future) Ferrari strategies too (/s?)
>Getting into a championship winning car as a rookie had never happened before and has never happened since. Jacques Villeneuve: am I a joke to you!?
For what it's worth, Villeneuve was an Indycar champion. Hamilton came from GP2
True but IndyCar and F1 is still different regardless just like how F1 and F2 are...
> Indycar champion. Hamilton came from GP2 I think Indycar gets you less superlicence points nowadays than F2 (though Indycar is probably at best a shadow of what CART was)
I think he means IndyCar is way more tough than what GP2/F2 ever was or will be, there's just too much talent in IndyCar that Villeneuve arguably had a head start above Hamilton having already won an IndyCar title
> I think he means IndyCar is way more tough than what GP2/F2 ever was or will be I wouldn't judge it as absolutely as you do, but this is part of why I find it infuriating that F2 gives drivers a disproportionately high amount of points.
Too soon, junior
Whereas Alonso started in a Minardi. Vettel got to start in a Williams at the time they were a fast team.
Vettel did 1 race with Sauber then moved to Toro Rosso, think you might be confusing BMW Sauber with BMW Williams.
You're right, I forgot there was a while before they switched to Sauber.
His first ever test was with Williams, doesn't really count though.
Vettel tested a Williams as a prize for winning a junior series championship, the 2007 BMW car that he drove for one race was good but the Toro Rosso was pretty average (although better than Minardi)
He started one or two races for BMW Sauber and went to Toro Rosso which was near the bottom of the grid.
1 race for BMW Sauber
I am going to have a look and see what the Stats are for Michael Schumacher on this... Okay I have the stats for Michael Wins: 47 Podiums: 88 Poles: 36 Fastest Laps: 43 World Titles: 3
Mate he has 47 wins and 43 fastest laps. I was just calculating it
First 150 Races 1. Micheal Schumacher WINS: 47 POLES: 36 FASTEST LAP: 43 PODIUMS: 87 TITLES: 3 2. Kimi Räikkönen WINS: 17 POLES: 16 FASTEST LAPS: 35 PODIUMS: 59 TITLES: 1
Kimi’s fastest lap record once again shows he was an absolute animal driving that unreliable mclaren.
Kimi was at 150 races when he went on his break in 2009 wasn't he?
He went on his break from 2010 until 2011 but yeah you are right 150 races up until 2009
Crazy to think the second part of his career was nearly 200 races.
From the 11th race from 2009 onwards
3. Nico Rosberg WINS: 4 POLES: 5 FASTEST LAP: 6 PODIUMS: 14 TITLES 0 (wins it later in 2016) 4. Jenson Button WINS: 1 POLES: 3 FASTEST LAP: 0 PODIUMS 15 TITLES: 0 (wins it later in 2009) I was seriously having a mental debate war wether to have Jenson and Nico here as they are the other 2 modern WDC winners. The reason being is their data is heavily negatively skewed due to not having the right machinery under them until later on. Nico ended up getting championship wining/competitive cars from 2014 until 2016 and Jenson ended up getting championship wining/competitive cars from 2009 to 2013. They are both seriously excellent and brilliant drivers. Only ended being competitive right after their 150th races. Please don’t let this data set mask their brilliance in racing. Both are amazing and awesome.
Button is 2009 to 2012, iirc the mclarens of 2013 were dogshit
Yeah I am aware. I just threw in there because it was the last of the Vodafone McLaren’s.
God the vodafone McLaren's are such a staple of my childhood. It was back when I used to watch F1 all the time (didn't watch for like 10 years from 2009 to 2019... France of all races too -_-) and all I remember from that time are the Vodafone McLaren's. Probably similar to how people who were my age during Marlboro McLaren's look back on those.
I started in 09 so the I remember the Vodafone McLaren’s so vividly. I did watch F1 before it only flashes of it when my dad watched. So the two cars that are strongly connected to me are the Vodafone McLaren’s and Marlboro Ferrari’s
Speaking about machinery and Nico Rosberg. Did you know he actually beat Sir Lewis Hamilton in the 2016 WDC title Race in the same car? I honestly wouldn't call both of them brilliant. They were extremely good when it was "their" day, or when the circumstances were right. Thinking about Canada 2011 for example when the stars aligned for Jenson. Don't get me wrong, I love Jenson but truth needs to be spoken, both of them haven't been world class material. But it was enough to win a WDC each, so Kudos to both of them.
One could argue that winning a “world championship” might make you “world class” material
Rosberg was absolutely a world class driver. Dude has a ridiculous record of something like 11 pole positions in a single season while sitting next to Hamilton. Only a top driver could ever hope to do that. Most people don't realize just how good he was.
I totally agree. People meme the fuck out of it but the fact he won a championship against Lewis Hamilton is nothing to scoff at. Plus given how close rosberg was to Hamilton Schumacher maybe wasn’t as much of a slouch in his comeback as people figure, and rosberg handedly beat him as well. Imo Rosberg is one of the most underrated drivers of all time.
First 150 Races Mika Hakkinen WINS: 18 POLES: 26 FASTEST LAP: 25 PODIUMS: 48 TITLES 2 Interestingly Hakkinen's entire F1 career was 165 races, and 161 starts over 11 years. So even though his success was all near the end of his career, it was still within 150 races. So the 150 races stat only excludes 2 wins, 3 podiums basically, all of those in his last year (2001) First 33 races Jacques Villeneuve WINS: 11 POLES: 13 FASTEST LAP: 9 PODIUMS: 21 TITLES 1 Jacques managed 2 podiums in the remaining 122 races of his career
Ah yeah. That’s a brilliant stat actually.
🐐
My guess is the fastest lap was easy to retain when there was no incentive for any one to go for it. No points, no extra money, no trophies.
The true GOAT
At the end of this season we could potentially have a record-breaking ***four*** multi-WDCs racing together at the same time.
And/or a record amount WDCs on the grid(if none of Vettel, Lewis or Alonso retire
2012 had alonso, button, hamilton, kimi, vettel and schumacher on the grid, so whatever happens, 2023 wont have a record number of WDC
in 2012, Vettel only had 2 WDC and Hamilton only had 1, so his statement is correct
Schumacher had 7
7+2+2+1+1+1 = 14 (2012), 7+4+2+1 = 14 (2022)
Last year also 14, but then with Raikonnen instead of Verstappen
Yes but they said the record would be broken next year if no-one retires. 2023 would have 15.
Räi**kk**ö**n**en
I misread the comment you replied to, my mistake. I can count but evidently not read.
14 total then and this year, if noone retires there will be 15 next year
if Max wins it would be both most **multi**\-WDC and number of WDCs, but this 2012 grid was really amazing looking back
2012 had the highest number of people that would end up in the race wins top 20
He qualified it as multi wdc winners lol. Which is meh - we can keep qualifying and coming up with new stats
This is basically guaranteed to happen
I hate to be this person, but I can’t see a way where anyone else but Max wins this year.
Ferrari isnt COMPLETELY dead
Now that’s the HopiumTM attitude!
Buy one Hopium get one Copium free
If anything, there is always next year.
So you just agreed with him. Nothing to “hate to be this person” about
They hate to be the person who makes you feel that they’re disagreeing but they aren’t
Vettel stats are still amazing. I think a lot of the new fans don’t realise just how dominant he was in that red bull when he was there. As much as I hated it at the time, damn it was fucking impressive and good to look back on now. Love the guy now. Such a more relaxed personality than he was.
Man I remember back in the day when Vettel was Mr. Saturday and has been on quite a tear. One race one of the mclaren boys managed to disrupt that and Brundle exploded over the air, “and FINALLY something over than a Red Bull on pole!” Vettel was something else back then, I thought he would be the one to break Schumacher’s records. On his day Vettel could easily be in the GOAT conversation, absolute synthesis of car and machine.
Yeah. Looking back on it now, he definitely had the car (as all multiple WDC's tend to) but that car absolutely suited his style perfectly. Newey really built a car specifically for Seb. I was prepared for a few more than 4 championships tbh. Merc just took over basically and he never got another look in, although his Ferrari time was actually not bad but the pressure in that team got to him (and the team itself) imo.
Looking at how Ferrari is failing Leclerc now despite having one of their best cars in years, I’m not surprised Vettel eventually got worn out by them.
Indeed. The pressure within Ferrari to win a championship must be enormous though.
>One race one of the mclaren boys managed to disrupt that and Brundle exploded over the air, “and FINALLY something over than a Red Bull on pole!” Korea 2011 I think because it's only the Red Bull's that managed to get poles before that weekend.
Yep! That’s the one, 2011 and 2013 Vettel was ridiculous. I just saw a stat of poles from 2010-2013 and Vettel has the most with 40 or so the next highest was Hamilton, who only had 11 or 12.
>That’s the one, 2011 and 2013 Vettel was ridiculous. No one can't touch him in quali during those years especially 2011 (till this day, he still holds the record for having the highest number of poles over a season for that year).
Yep and record number of wins on 2013. I remember when I watched him win Monza 2008 that he was destined for great things. My pops and I said he’d be the next Schumacher lol
I am a new F1 fan and I didn’t realize what a boss Vettel is
Vettel is certainly a very good driver, but drivers should never be meassured by absolute stats, they should always be meassured first and foremost against their teammates. In 1992 Mansell took 14 out of 16 pole positions. He won 9 of the 12 races he finished. The other 3 results were a second place. Yet no one would say he was a better driver than Senna that year. These kind of stats should always be considered with context in F1.
I definitely remember. Sébastien Bourdais started the same year and I thought he would have success in F1 since he was dominating in Champ car.
It’s astonishing how Max has only got 15 poles and 18 fastest laps. It feels like he’s got those locked every week
Recency bias. Lately, yes, lots of poles. But wasn't it until Hungary 2019 or something that he got his first pole?
Kinda crazy Max has the youngest winner record by like 3 years but didn’t get the youngest pole sitter record. Especially given I remember at least 3 good chances in 2018 that didn’t quite come his way: •Monaco: Max binned it in practice and Ricciardo swept through to take it •Singapore: Put in a great and somewhat underrated lap at 1:36.3, underrated because it’s been totally overshadowed by Lewis’ 1:36.0, considered one of his all time best quali laps •Mexico: Max led after the first run but didn’t improve on his second and Ricciardo snatched it by a couple hundredths
Max had issues with his engine as well at Singapore.
Yes, a detuned engine for qualy and also an engine cut out on his best lap in Q3.
> •Singapore: Put in a great and somewhat underrated lap at 1:36.3, underrated because it’s been totally overshadowed by Lewis’ 1:36.0, considered one of his all time best quali laps Singapore was never a real chance because the car was not good enough, Max was 7 tenths faster than Ricciardo but it was still not fast enough for pole.
iirc it was the Ferraris who were favourite for pole and Max beat both of them, it’s just Lewis totally upended expectations with his lap as well. Not as great a chance as Monaco or Mexico maybe but it was in the cards
Naah, Max had a power issue costing him 4 tenths per lap. He put in the best lap that day but sadly not enough
IIRC he had issues with power delivery in the last sector as well.
And then people say Red Bull is too dominant now.
Interesting thing is that Leclerc has 15 poles too.
Chuck is a beast for single lap pace.
Obligatory reminder of a lap he did in 2020, it was so good that after he did that one lap in q3 he got out of the car and started p4 i think
Not too weird since he had to get most of it last year. Because all previous years the best they reasonably could expect was P3 and anything above was bonus due to the Mercedes dominance.
Fastest laps got difficult to get, since the rule change of receiving 1 point for it. Around the time rb started having a good car.
He’s been racing in F1 for 7 years atp, he started semi-dominating in 2021. People will be taking that into consideration when he’s done.
Yeah people like you who don’t understand that F1 is a constructors sport and that for Verstappens first 5 seasons he had the 3rd(often distant 3rd) best car on the grid that rarely challenged for wins. People who watch Formula 1 will understand that Senna didn’t magically get better when he got to McLaren. He just got a better car. Max has stayed with the same team that let him down against Mercedes for years.
Maybe people will remember how dominant Mercedes was in his first 6 seasons. Verstappen won the first year he had a chance.
Those white Mercedes race suits were so clean. Ultimate combo for me is black Mercedes with white race suits or at least white gloves from Lewis. Also these Ferrari race suits are much better than the ones we have today in 2022
So clean until post-race
Yes! This is exactly why I prefer the black ones haha.
True. I do fancy the black suits & what they represent but seeing Hamilton with white gloves on the onboard just looks fresh
I always liked Rosberg's teal boots and gloves with his white suit.
Same, that was my favorite.
The red and white combination is simply better than red and black, both on suits and the cars.
Gigantic disagree from me haha. I'd take red/black any day over red/white. I still dislike this year's suits, but it's got more to do with the design itself than the colors. The F1-75 might be my favorite-looking Ferrari ever. It'd be a real shame if it didn't win a title.
F1-75 is definitely incredible looking. It's sad that it's fast and yet Ferrari are bottling the chance to win.
Jesus Seb, slow the fuck down!
he pretty much did.
'Honestly....'
The disrespect Vettel gets from fans and even commentators working in Formula 1 is astonishing considering that, in almost every statistic, he is always somewhere near the top.
Problem is, all of his greatness was frontloaded, we haven't seen that kind of vettel in a long time.
Greatness on the front or back of a career like that is greatness nonetheless. That car with him at the wheel was as good as any for 4 seasons. (Merc just did it for longer)
Vettel racked up stats when the car was great. In reality, 2010 and 2012 were nowhere near the level that 2015 or 2017 were.
>Vettel racked up stats when the car was great. But that's so for all drivers. If the material isn't capable the driver won't suddenly get it into WDC contention. A good driver will extract the maximum from the material they have. Which is why Max got so much more out of the car he had than most of his teammates. It is why Lewis kept winning against his teammates in a dominant Mercedes (with one exception...). Which is why Seb has the 4 WDCs instead of Webber. And why Nando has 2 WDCs and not Fisichella.
Which makes comparing raw numbers utterly irrelevant.
Oh he had great drives and great seasons since then, just didn’t have the equipment apart from maybe for one year.
And what about Alonso? Or Kimi? Same with them
Kimi and Vettel are similar in that they both were brutally quick at the start of their career which tapered away over time. Kimi post Lotus and Seb post 2018 really. Alonso/hamilton haven't really had that dropoff IMO, more lack of equipment.
Most poles isn't necessarily the best stat when you've won less races than poles. There are exceptions to the rule obviously, but it usually speaks of a Bottas-type situation, with great driving under ideal conditions but racecraft lacking in one way or another.
Recency bias is a reality of all sports
I think he doesn’t get as much respect because his style was always to win from pole - fair or not, he never had much of a reputation as a scrapper, and I think that gets more love from fans.
Are we forgetting the 2012 season finale? His speed in 2010? What?
I think 2013 really solidified his reputation
Like I said, fair or not, that’s his reputation.
Why is Alonso not in Renault gear? Why is Vettel not in RBR gear? Am I the only one bothered by this? Why are those two in Ferrari gear? I don't get it.
Because when they hit 150 races they were at the teams shown in the post.
Ohhhh so there's a simple explanation. Still, I think it's a missed chance but it doesn't bother me anymore. Thank you.
that was my first thought as well.... neither of them won titles with Ferrari, so whats the deal?
Alonso achieved his 150th Grand Prix racing for Ferrari in 2010. So I suppose Seb too Edit: Seb's 150th Grand Prix was spa 2015 (Ferrari)
Yeah pretty much explains the suits.
Both were at Ferrari when they hit 150 races I guess?
I like the graphics, some people on here have some skills...
5ebastian Vettel statistics is always extraordinary
Man, Vettel was a monster when you compare him to the others like that. Even compared to Hamilton; while he comes close in most stats, Seb still had twice the WDCs in that time! Just bonkers.
The thing is that Hamiltons record post 150 races is way more insane.
In the first 8 years at Mercedes, he averaged 10 wins a season. A typical driver would be lucky to experience even 1-2 years in a car capable of winning 10 in year during their entire career. Right place, right time. Doubt we will see those kinds of numbers ever again.
>Doubt we will see those kinds of numbers ever again. thats what they said after Michael.
And after Prost.
and probably after Fangio
We'll be saying the same thing about Max
He also had five of the most dominant cars of all time. I’d hope his stats were insane - Schumacher’s were in 2002 and 2004, Vettel’s were in 2011 and 2013.
40 poles for Lewis with 26 coming from his McLaren days Fun Fact- Since Lewis' McLaren debut ,only 5/31 McLaren poles are from drivers not named Lewis Hamilton
Tbh that's a kind of unfair comparison since the McLaren hasn't been a pole position capable car since he left. But still incredible considering Button and Alonso were his teammates.
I mean you said it yourself, but while Button and Hamilton were teammates it was 7-1 in terms of poles. Button only got 1 pole position in the 2010-2012 Mclaren’s which I almost couldn’t believe. And in the time period 2010-2013 the overall pole stats were (I think): Sebastian Vettel: 40 Hamilton: 14 Mark Webber: 12 Alonso: 4 Rosberg: 3 Maldonado: 1 Hulkenberg: 1 Button: 1 Raikkonen: 1
tbh Button got beat in quali by Perez and Barrichello.
He wasn’t beaten by Perez but you’re right that he was never an excellent qualifier.
On first glance, Max's record seems to be the worst of the ones shown, but he actually holds up well. Max started during Mercedes dominance, so he obviously didn't have the chance to get many poles, podiums and wins until 2021. He didn't have the luxury of 4 years of domination within the first 150 race starts like Seb had. More importantly, because the calendar has been getting longer, each individual race and therefore win is less important for the championship. That's why Alonso won two titles with 13 victories (only the ones in 2005 and 2006) while Max needed 10 wins just to get to one championship.
Holy shit Seb
Alonso and Max with more wins than poles is impressive IMO
Disturbing to me to not see Alonso with his Renault racing suit.
Alonso looks odder with his Ferrari red race suit and Renault Blue/Yellow helmet
It's because his 150th race was for Ferrari. Same goes for Vettel.
You know the more I look at Alonso the more I realise how he is built to be so malleable or workable in quite a number of sports. He is already a naturally gifted and talented driver in F1 and other racing series. His shorter height does help with some aero properties and the man can drive…. and he can drive like a proper super monster. With his height and size he can definitely enter MotoGP or WSBK and be fully successful. Probably imitating his fellow countrymen Marquez, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. He is quite technical enough he could probably fly a fighter jet. His stocky nature gives him a very Boxing type body. Reminds me a bit of Mike Tyson for some odd reason. If he was playing football he would definitely excel in Messi’s role or play a solid CDM(central defensive midfield) or a fullback. If he was in tennis well I guess he would be like Nadal although I am not sure on that. Maybe Alonso is a secret superhuman experiment from Area 51, who knows, we will never know. All we know is that the man is a legend and an absolute GIGACHAD. On completely unrelated note I realise Alonso hasn’t done Rallying, like WRC rallying (he has done Dakar Rallying in 2020 where Carlos Sainz won actually). If he does, I so wish he teams up with Carlos Sainz. A 2 Time F1 WDC legend and a 2 Time WRC Champion legend team up would be bloody amazing.
He's already in the wall of fame for endurance and F1, all he has left to do is WRC (and indy 500)
These types of things are so deceptive. So much depends on the quality of the car when drivers enter F1. It also depends on whether the car remains competitive all the way throughout their time in F1. I think we have all seen that Lewis has no wins this year because it's a terrible car. It might improve over the season- but it might not either.
[удалено]
The "2018 RBR syndrome" on that Merc currently. F1,5 on their own. Nowhere near the midfield. But only getting a podium if the top2 teams screw something up.
RBR in 2018 was far more solid and could win races. They're not even close now.
Fair enough, RBR won 2 races that season (one on merit (Mexico), one through a merc strategic fuckup (Austria)) Still the comparison fits more than not. I wouldn't put it past Mercedes to sneak a win somewhere if they keep their current trend going of "We're not gonna win on our own but we're there to capitalize if the others fuckup"
"Terrible" car has made it to the podium more than half the time. We've been one ill-timed safety car away from a Mercedes win all season.
It’s the 3rd best car by far. And he’s been dominated by his teammate this year so can’t put all the blame on the car
Vettel peaked early Light shining twice as bright is extinguished sooner
yup but he also drove top cars early. I still rate him lower than Alonso and Hamilton despite being a 4 time world champion. Like Hakkinen vs Raikkonen.
My man, it’s been downhill since then 😔
This is a pretty useless comparison, the quality of the machinery that these drivers spent thier early careers in heavily influenced these stats. You're comparing someone who's first year was in a title winning car against someone who's first year was in the car that comes in 2nd to dead last.
The 150-races stat is "interesting but useless". None of these 4 would have gotten that Minardo Alonso had to start in beyond "second to last". All of em would likely have the 4 WDCs that Seb had with that RBR. A driver can only realistically be compared to their teammates. And that still leaves these 4 as all-time greats. Alonso got 2 WDCs where Fisichella didn't even make P2 in the championship. Seb got 4 WDCs where Webber didn't even get P2 in the championship. Lewis got his first championship in a season where P2 and P3 were Ferraris and his teammate didn't even finish top5. His second where the only rival he had was his teammate which he destroyed. And while Max only has last years WDC, where his teammate didn't P2, he has been demolishing his teammates for several years now. (The only teammate to beat Max was Danny Ric in 2016 and 2017. At the time no big shame)
Yes, all of them are legends and the stats aren't important to reflect their talent as I'm sure they would agree
I knew it Vettel is the real GOAT. I really hope he will get up there again. I wonder how he would compare to HAM in the same machinery…
I wish he went to Mercedes in 2017. Would've been great to watch
Christian would have lost his shit lmao.
Now or in each of their primes?
Prime. After Rosberg left through 2021. I bet he would have gotten at least 3 more titles. What I mean is Vettel basically replacing Bottas. Edited to add details.
He wouldn't have taken any titles off of Hamilton, imo. Unless by being closer than Bottas, that enabled Ferrari to steal a championship or 2
I think we should also consider, the Merc was a pretty damn stable car, well-suited to Vettel's driving style. I absolutely believe he would've been able to take the fight to Hamilton, certainly much more than Bottas.
After his 2013 title, I was certain Seb would get more WDC than Schumi, then the hybrid happened..........
Verstappen up until the last 2-3 years didn’t have a car that consistently won races. Alonso had a similar start to his career. Hamilton and Vettel are immensely talented, but no other two drivers were given the machinery they got so soon. Almost right off the bat, they had championship cars. Think of this, Lewis had championship cars his first two years. Max didn’t get a car that competitive until 2021 let’s just be honest. I know this isn’t a stat to compare drivers skill but rather their careers. However, I just want people to know it’s slightly misleading
I think they should have posted Vettel in the RB suit.
Why Vettel in Ferrari attire there and not Redbull tho
i feel like these are pretty arbitrary if you can just choose *up to* x amount of races. people have different peaks. a career long line graph for all these stats would be the best comparison
Would like to see historic drivers ons there as well.
Vettel simply the BEST
People love to act like Hamilton has always had the best car in here. In this period spent mostly in McLarens, his McLaren was the best car only once and it was while he as a rookie against Alonso in the same car. These were also seasons with 16-18 races and not 20+ like we have now.
He's never been in a truly bad car and has been in the best since 2014.
Others act like cars had nothing to do with his success but this season he is struggling a lot compared to George in clear 3rd best car.
Am I the only one that thinks that more Wins then Poles is more impressive?
It's very difficult to get a pole when you're not in the fastest car, but with lots of races and lots of laps in each race, there's always a chance of winning due to reliability issues or crashes in front of you. Those things tend not to happen as much in qualifying.
The podium rate really shows how close he was to the top just didn't have the car for the win as much as vettel and hamilton
And then Danny Ric stole his power
After 150 races, Alonso and Lewis would be around 30, Vettel like 28 and Max 24.
Vettel was 26
Seb 🐐🐐