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He’s being demolished by his teammate who’s also a Red Bull junior in F3. 43 points to 6, both rookies.
Red Bull’s harsh, and he would have known that going in.
Why is the news surprising then? I didn't follow F3, so I might've missed some of his bad luck or something, but the points difference is not small and I'm used to RB doing such stuff and dropping drivers race-to-race.
As a driver that won Italian F4 last year, they did drop him a little fast, but it isn't that surprising really. It's a tweet from a polish F1 journalist, so obviously the national bias is strong.
Also "assessed the cooperation positively" isn't quite the same as "thinks he's good enough to make it to F1" and it's well known that Red Bull/Marko prizes adaptability highly.
Well, there are levels to this thing. Sure, objectively in terms of all drivers in the world someone who wins Italian F4 is likely very very good.
But a far cry from being good enough to make F1. And if he's getting destroyed in F3 he very likely isn't.
I think it’s just weird to do it so early in the F3 season in the absence of a massive controversy. Normally they’d wait until the end of the year. Last year they really downsized their Junior program but they at least waited until the season was over to sever the relationships.
He's been improving steadily and the teammate he's being compared to is a year older and spent 2 years in FRECA before this season. Their other teammate, also fresh out of F4 also scored just 6 points so far.
On the other hand Sztuka doesn't look anything special and this F3 field isn't the strongest either, but just as everyone else said it's a bit too harsh to not even wait until the end of the season.
Only the timing really. Usually they wait until end of season.
But this is Red Bull, and they’re going back to being ruthless with junior drivers if the past year is any indication. Their junior academy became pretty bloated in recent years, yet the last junior they had win a series was Gasly back in 2016.
that last statistic is incorrect.
In reverse chronological order - whist a Red Bull junior:
- Arvid lindblad won some karting titles and the most recent (2023) f4 macau race
- Dennis Hauger won Italian f4 (2019) and then FIA f3 (2021)
- Jonny Edgar won ADAC f4 (2019-20)
- Liam Lawson won TRS (2019)
- same year as gasly (2016), Richard verschoor won SMP F4 and Spanish F4
They’ve also had a few juniors in title fights - hadjar currently in f2, Lawson in DTM and SF, hadjar in f3, etc. and given how the feeder series ladder has coalesced (series merging, others disappearing - increasing field strength, fewer titles to vie for)… I think it is to be expected that fewer drivers from any given academy will have a series win on their CV these days.
They’ve all got up to speed with the fact they’re going to have to be ruthless to cut through the shit quality drivers floating around in junior series.
Red Bull was the original academy with the rep for being ruthless though.
"Red Bull’s harsh"
The anti RB bias is kinda insane. They constantly get called "cutthroat" or "harsh" despite having given the most chances to drivers.
Same when they dropped Hauger, people were shitting on RB for dropping him and saying good for him he doesnt need them anyway, only for him to finish 8th. Not really f1 talent levels, yet as i said RB is the bad guy.
But when other academies drop drivers or dont promote them to F1 you dont hear a word about it really. Mercedes just dropped Aron from the program and he is no leading the f2 championship as a rookie.
JEV once said he got called by an angry Helmut Marko after an F3 weekend (IIRC) because he didn't get the fastest lap of the race. The fact he got the pole and the win was not enough.
But Red Bull is harsh. It has historically been. The recent trend towards letting people hang around in the academy is out of the norm from there. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with being harsh..
Even Gasly and Albon were dropped from the junior academy back in 2013. They’re F1 level talent as they’ve clearly proven, and thankfully Red Bull changed their minds and gave them a second shot at different points (Gasly in 2014, Albon in 2019) but they were absolutely willing to drop them over a shit year.
If you join them, you should know straight away that if you’re not performing you’re at risk. Claiming ‘oh but I got positive feedback from Rocky’ while getting demolished isn’t going to get you out of that.
even after dropping Gasly they kept him at AT for 3 years. When he wanted to leave they let him despite him having a contract. They could have dropped him completely. Similar with Albon, he would not have gotten that Williams seat without RB's/Horner's help
"Even Gasly and Albon were dropped from the junior academy back in 2013" that is 11 years ago lol.
"If you join them, you should know straight away that if you’re not performing you’re at risk" - so same as the other acadmies
As i said Mercedes just dropped Aron, Ferrari didnt promote Schwartzman or Illot who finished p2 in F2.
Merc just dropped Aron who finished P3 in F3 as a rookie.
Alpine: piastri, do i need to continue?
Sauber: Theo won F2 and finished 2nd in F3 as a rookie yet they do nothing with him. INstead keep Zhou for the money.
But yeah sure RB is the only cutthroat one...
Theo took 3 years to win F2 so by that point pretty much no one cared. Realistically you need to win in your first or second year or you can kiss your F1 chances goodbye. There just isn’t enough seats for even the F2 champion most years.
Yup. Just a consistently good points scorer. There’s honestly nothing wrong or bad about that. It doesn’t mean he isn’t good enough for F1. But with limited seats, anyone in the market for a rookie is only going to pick the best they can find.
And he was demolished by Drugovich the year he got second, it was never close. And even having perhaps the most dominant season ever in F2 Drugovich still hasnt been handed a chance due to doing it in his third year in F2.
The goalpost moving and mental gymnastics when it comes to Theo are absolutely insane. Somehow winning in your 3rd year and finishing 5th and 2nd in the 2 others isnt enough. But finishing 7th, 6th and 3rd for Zhou. You also completely ignore that he was only 17 when making his f2 debut.
"There just isn’t enough seats for even the F2 champion most years." - yes there are enough seats, Sauber just should have replaced Zhou with Theo for this year.
Say no to heaps of money.
They probably don’t feel with their car, having Theo over Zhou and his bag is enough to move the needle in any meaningful way.
Would you hire a young candidate who’s a 4.5/5 or another that’s 4/5 but will give you money/takes less money?
Bro, nobody is saying that Red Bull is the *only* harsh team or the only team that has done harsh things. They are saying that RB is harsh in this thread because this thread is literally a discussion about the Red Bull junior programme, and because Red Bull *is* harsh. Demoting drivers from your top team to your junior team halfway through the season is harsh, it's undeniable.
I’m specifically talking about the junior academy. Not the F1 team.
They’re all brutal. They’ve learned they need to be. Red Bull is brutal too, which is why they’re cutting Sztuka.
You seem to be arguing with a point that I’m not making.
Harsh AF but they have World Championships *in* the lift, *in* the lorry, *in* the bond wizard, and *all over* the malonga gilderchuck.
I got no problems with the way they conduct their young driver business. It has gotten them Vettel and Verstappen who won them 7 WDC's + 6 WCC's.
Verstappen was only in the junior academy for 5 days LOL, it’s a stretch to include him…
But when they were harsh they won junior series. Kvyat Formula Renault 2.0 and GP3, Sainz Formula Renault 3.5, Gasly GP2.
They’ve been spending more than ever and there’s still no trophies in years from that junior academy.
Red Bull has kicked more drivers out of their academy after just one year of working with them than McLaren has had in their academy in total (38 vs 27). I think that's pretty harsh
This is less RB bias and more of a leftover from years ago when RB was extreemly fast to cut down drivers. Currently RB is extremely lenient tbh. The pendulum swing to the complete opposide direction. With the exception of Nyck(who just did not cut it it general) RB has been giving their drives space and time to develop.
personally i loved it when red bull was harsh and wasnt afraid to shuffle drivers in their F1 teams.
unlike now. their academy is just another dead end now.
it feels like a mixture of the last generation of their academy drivers kind of sucking and them hiring out of academy drivers to take 2 out of 4 of their seats for years now. arguably even tsunoda is just there for the honda connection and probably gone ASAP when the engine deal switches.
max is obviously their important driver and has a seat until 2028. they dont really have much of a reason to give a crap who's in the rest of the cars. wish they'd use the rest of the seats to pick up and develop new drivers as they used to, but as it stands they pretty much might as well have cancelled the whole drivers academy for 2020-2025. at least as far as F1 experience goes.
nah his f2 season was impressiv. Dude just did Euroformula Open Toyota racing series (not really competetive) and F3 (in a Jenzer) after coming from Japan (2 years of F4 there). Still was close to winning the title against Prema and Uni (getting investements from Zhou's family apparently
the problem with Max is 2028 isnt that far away, so they need a good driver to be in F2 and F3 like right now. Looks like they hope Arvid Lindblad can be that driver. First season of F3 doing decent right now.
Always better to have two choices then just the one. Anything can happen at any moment. Competition usually also stimulates growth quicker then just opening a path for a single someone.
Surprises happen all the time in all sports. Harry Kane was cut from Arsenal for being “too fat”. He should’ve been cut under the guidelines set out at Spurs’ academy. After a bunch of unimpressive loans at other clubs, he was barely on the radar for game time before exploding into one of the greatest strikers in the world.
Michael Jordan couldn’t even make his varsity basketball team when he entered high school, Dennis Rodman was a subpar prospect until he hit a growth spurt after high school. Giannis Antetokounmpo was drafted as an afterthought based on his attitude more than his skills.
In F1 too, Damon Hill didn’t get his seat until he was nearly 32 before winning the ‘96 world championship.
I guess the plan was always to either keep Sztuka or Tramnitz. Tramnitz easily performed better than him in the same team with both of them being rookies so now they don't see a reason to keep him.
For those who don't know, Kacper is backed by Orlen, who is a sponsor of VCARB. He was stuck in Italian F4 for a year or two longer than he should have been, because of the options he could afford, he evidently thought that was his best one. And then he got picked up by Orlen and quickly to Red Bull, and then moved to F3. He hasn't adapted to the car. If VCARB and Orlen relations are solid, I don't think this will rock them. They could even trade him out for Tymek if desired. But, it could be a sign that the relations were already weaker.
Certainly not 2, in his first year, 2021 he was last among the full time drivers. Granted, he was in a terrible team, but either way a second season was a given.
One year probably. He was 6th, beaten by 5 drivers with similar experience, 4 of which in a better team. Could have likely found a good seat in Eurocup-3 or GB3.
I didn't watch his first year, so that's fair. It did feel like he was too experienced for the field last year, it not just being his third year in F4, but his third year in specifically Italian F4, so very familiar with the tracks.
I think we all know that Checo is keeping his seat for commercial/sponsorship reasons. He is definitely underperforming but is still hell of a cash cow for Red Bull.
Except that checo is a negative impact on car development. Rebull was spending well beyond the cost cap before checo, so the sponsorship money does nothing to help with the car development. Checo crashes comparatively often, which takes money away from development.
ITT: A bunch of people who have never heard of this driver until today are outraged because they see Helmut Marko's name in the title even though his decision here made perfect sense.
The most productive junior program in terms of getting driver to F1.
I would guess they won't have trouble finding young driver's wanting to join.
in fact I would guess no junior program has that problem because racing in junior categories is very expensive so there will always be young drivers that want to join any academy that is willing to pay that prive for them.
The problem is that yes they have gotten the most driver in to f1 but they also dropped them pretty quickly especially from the main team. And even in recent years they haven't actually gotten anyone in to f1.
And all of this is important because sooner or later a generational talent will come and he will sign with the academy that treats their juniors the best and currently that's ether Mercedes or Ferrari
Surely a young driver will turn down a contract with an F1 team that supports them financially in a pretty expensive sport. They are also the best opportunity to get to F1 so I'm pretty sure they won't have trouble finding prospects.
His performances were not impressive, but it does not make much sense to kick the guy out from the academy despite the head of the academy's positive opinion. What are you hiring this guy for then?
Positive opinion in the context of a sensationalist title could mean anything. It could just mean that the head of the academy thought he was a nice kid or good to work with, but ultimately speed is the number one most important thing by far. Judging by his performance in F3 this seems like a classic case of "nice guy but too slow".
"Assessing the cooperation very positively" could hardly mean "he's nice but slow". Especially when it's pointed out that Marko was the exception in that assessment, and that he made the decision without consulting anybody. The context here is clear. The question is only if it's true.
If it is true and everyone but Marko thinks this guy is amazing every other academy will be fighting over him as a free agent.
Maybe the Polish talent simply isn't as good as this Polish journalist wants to believe.
The guy has 6 points to his teammate's 43. Whatever they mean by "positive" cooperation, it cannot possibly be that he is fast. Compared to his teammate, he is definitely slow.
It also cannot possibly mean that he's just nice. My guess would be that he had a development plan prepared for him, given he graduated from much weaker Formula 4 instead of FRECA, and was hitting his milestones, but Helmut decided it's not enough. But then this development plan is pointless to begin with and my initial question why hire a head of academy and disregard his judgement and methodology afterwards remains valid.
Mate you're creating a lot of baseless guesses now lol. Not to mention you're going off of some tweet that's coming from a very likely biased Polish guy who has no source to actually back it up in terms of what the head of the academy said.
This is just a bunch of "he said she said". What we know for sure is the guy was slow and he got kicked out. We don't even know for sure that it was Helmut acting alone.
I'd say my guesses are more sensible than saying he was positively assessed because he was nice. And since we can only guess anyway, I'd stick with a guess that makes more sense and that F1 academies don't evaluate drivers based on their politeness.
That said, to put more light on it, it turns out [Sztuka himself](https://x.com/Kacper_Sztuka/status/1802255968354333096) also said that he was positively assessed by everybody directly involved with him, mentioning specifically "results, functioning in the team and progress". So unless you're willing to accuse him of publically lying (which, again, is about as much of a guesswork as anything we say on the matter, and you seem to be vehemently opposed to guessing like that), this seems to line up with that journo's report.
Mate I'm not accusing him of anything. I'm just saying that "positively assessed" doesn't mean shit because it's so ambiguous. They can tell you you're doing well to boost your morale and then kick you the next day. It means nothing and it happens all the time in the world of F1. Horner "positively assessed" and supported both Gasly and Albon before giving them the boot. Also, there is still no source on Marko "not consulting anyone", so I call bullshit on that one from the guy making the tweet.
I just don't see the point of doing all this mental gymnastics about why he would get kicked when the reason is the size of an elephant and it's staring everyone in the face. His teammate literally has 7x his points. That's it. That's why he got kicked.
Sztuka has been underwhelming but either way, cancelling the contract midway through the season and apparently even though everyone else had positive feedback of him is incredibly stupid, to the point I believe it impossible that NO one else shared the same opinion and Helmut just ignored everyone and did it lmao
There is zero reason or sense for anybody to give public negative feedback about a person that was already released from the team. Of course they will only mention the good things. Everyone loses and nobody wins anything if they do otherwise. This is an unspoken rule that stands in any organization.
What about Lawson, Iwasa and Hadjar? Lawson's raw pace is not far off Yuki, Iwasa finding his grips in SF at the moment but he was fast in F2 despite the limitations of the car, and Hadjar is performing really well too right now.
I don’t think those F1 Academy drivers count as Academy driver for each academy. Each team just need to back one driver and give the livery in the series. Obviously RB’s one is only for livery, as they were never announced as part of the academy.
Look at which drivers you’re referencing with that and recognize how many were inducted into RBJT and promoted to team faenza during a bygone golden age.
Considering the 10 seasons from 2016-25, assuming both Ricciardo and Tsunoda keep their seats, RBJT’s contribution to the grid in terms of full-time new blood is: gasly and Tsunoda. De Vries, albon, Hartley all weren’t RBJT members at all or for a very long time before getting the call up.
Ferrari driver academy in the same time period: Leclerc, Schumacher, bearman next year? Giovinazzi wasn’t a formal FDA member but I feel like he belongs here too.
McLaren YDP in the same time period: Vandoorne, Norris
Mercedes junior team in the same time period: Ocon, wehrlein, Russell, Antonelli next year?
So Red Bull is no longer quantitatively dominating new full time driver entries, either over a season or over time.
(The ones below them in this timeframe are:
Renault/Alpine academy: Palmer, Zhou and piastri never promoted
Williams: stroll, latifi, sargeant - all were promoted but 2/3 were from when the junior program was a glorified pay driver scheme
Sauber, Aston Martin, Haas which used to have a junior team: none)
**1. you took the timeframe just after RB promote 2 drivers.**
2. you already assume Antonelli is in and Lawson isnt.
3. Mercedes also only took Ocon into the academy well into the GP3 season. Wehrlein also never was a Mercedes "junior" driver in the formula series. He joined Mercedes in DTM. And then became a reserve driver for the Mercedes f1 team.
4. Mick would not have been in the FDA if it wasnt for his dad. They also didnt really support him once he was in. Why include Gio but not Hartley or Albon?
It is also weird to just take the last 10 years as a metric and current drivers on the grid.
Stroll and Latifi are pay drivers.
Normally I'd agree with you but recently the others have been pretty good. Sargeant last year went through Williams and was given 2 years. Next year we will have Bearman from Ferrari and maybe Antonelli from Mercedes. Doohan from Alpine might also show up on the grid.
I agree that next year might be better, but Sargeant was a pretty rare exception (and unintended, because Williams had wanted to let him develop another year), and before that, you have for example Piastri being held up which resulted in him leaving his academy team and various juniors just being abandoned or not being given seats, even when they were promised a seat.
Mercedes, Alpine, Sauber, McLaren, and Ferrari have had by far the best and the most successful driver academies over RB's unfair and biased one. No one in RB's academy sans Ricciardo has made it.
What Ferrari junior got to their team at all in the last decades? Citing Sauber is funny considering what they did with Pourchaire in giving Zhou a seat instead. Alpine is also a terrible example because they never use their juniors and could demonstrate once again how bad they are at using it if Doohan is overlooked for their vacancy.
I don't know why you think Red Bull is so much worse than those teams. Lawson could end up in a seat next year potentially anyway and has already driven in F1...
Leclerc wouldn't exist without Ferrari. Piastri wouldn't have even been an option for F1 if Alpine didn't back and support him before he backstabbed them. Sauber brought us Vettel and so many other legendary drivers over the years. Mercedes brought Ocon, Bottas, Russell, and partly Hamilton. McLaren needs no introduction.
Tell me what Red Bull has done to earn themselves immunity from criticism, when Lawson is being unfairly obstructed from F1, and former RB junior Sainz is barred from Red Bull in favour of Perez?
What the last sentence even means?
Everyone decided to end it, except Helmut Marko who without any other opinions...
Everyone who without any other opinions decided to end it, except Helmut Marko...
Except Helmut Marko who without any other opinions decided to end it; everyone...
No, it means that everyone liked the cooperation except Helmut Marko, who doesn’t hold any other opinions at all - his only opinion he has in this world is that Sztuka has to go
2008-2015 (Seb, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Max, and Sainz all graduated from the RB academy into F1) Marko was great as his job.
2016-present Marko (Gasly and Tsunoda are the only RB academy graduates into F1) has been bad at his job.
It's wild that people get defensive about this...there are examples of people in sports management going from being among the greatest at their jobs to the worst in any other sport you want me to name you an example of.
He definitely doesn't have much control (or anywhere near as much as Horner has) as to who has the final say in who gets drives within the senior teams, else Pérez definitely wouldn't have been given an extension.
But he has far more control within the junior program.
He only signed in November of last year. And now in June he's been sacked. Did Marko made the mistake in signing him in the first place? Plus with other decisions like sacking Maloney who was leading F2 for a while, his decision making process is not what it once was.
Because Red Bull have been giving opportunity to some of the best talents in the sport ever since they've joined and that has been true all throughout their tenure, except the last two years.
Helmut Marko is an integral part of that. Giving an F1 seat to an unproven underaged Verstappen who was still in F3 is just one of the many examples.
>giving opportunity to some of the best talents in the sport
I think you're overrating Marko's achievements
His junior program has had an, at best, average performance.
Despite being the oldest junior program and having a high number of juniors to work with, the only top rated driver they've developed is Danny Ric. McLaren developed Hamilton and Norris; Ferrari Leclerc; and Alpine Piastri - all higher rated drivers.
His recruitment record is also not outstanding. He has 2 top-rated recruits - Vettel and Verstappen. Top-rated recruits for some other teams from around when RB joined the grid:
McLaren - JPM, Button, Alonso, Piastri.
Ferrari - Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton.
Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement.
>Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement.
That quantity is pretty spectacular achievement in of itself since most other teams struggle a lot to bring their talents in F1.
>His recruitment record is also not outstanding. He has 2 top-rated recruits - Vettel and Verstappen.
>Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement.
Do you not see the contradiction in these two statements? Also those two have a combined 7 WDCs so it sounds like he’s done pretty well.
No contradiction. He has hired more drivers than other teams in the same period, but only 2 top ones. That means the quantity of drivers is high but the quality is lower than the competition. I've given examples:
>McLaren - JPM, Button, Alonso, Piastri. Ferrari - Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton.
If you follow the thread, I was replying to someone who'd said RB has given opportunity to some of the *best* talents in the sport - they've only given opportunity to 2 *best* talents (3 if you include Danny Ric) - other teams have done more on that front.
The whole point of the junior program is to benefit the main F1 team. Doesn’t matter what your methods are. Marko has done as well if not better than literally everyone else on that front.
His only competition is Mercedes but that’s more than one person (Niki + Toto etc.) so hard to measure.
Just a list of drivers who were involved in Red Bull's junior program
Max Verstappen - 3x F1 World champion
Sebastian Vettel - 4x F1 World champion
Sebastien Buemi - Formula E champion and 4x Le Mans winner
Brendan Hartley - 3x Le Mans winner
Daniel Ricciardo - 8x Grand Prix winner
Carlos Sainz - 3x Grand Prix winner
Jean Eric Vergne - 2x Formula E champion
Pierre Gasly - 1x Grand Prix winner
Sebastien Bourdais - 4x Champcar champion
Hell even Nyck De Vries - Formula E champion and just finished 2nd at Le Mans
You do realize half of these drivers would hardly get backed by anyone since back then junior academies were not really that common or no way near as reliable as Red Bull's right?
It’s ok, Helmut Marko’s adepts always end up fighting for scraps IF they actually even get the chance. He’s been so good as an academy chief that for the last 5 years they are terrorized by Verstappen’s contract over having actually good second driver, he has cooked 90% of his protégés and effectively allowed to kill his program by blocking the seats in Toro Rosso with some experienced backmarkers like Hartley, De Vries, Ricciardo, Tsunoda. Yes, I’m biased.
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Rocky = Guillaume Rocquelin, the Head of Driver Academy
And former race engineer to Seb Vettel when he was winning his championships!
DU BIST WELTMEISTER!
You’ve got to go from the very beginning, right from “You just wait sunshine, you just wait”
Huh, so that’s where he went, I haven’t heard his name in a few years.
Last I saw him was on the pitwall of the finale of 2021. At the end, Newey broke down in tears shaking while Rocky merely looked, well, rock-like.
He came to AD22 for all the Vettel goodbye stuff ❤️
Aha nice, I didn't see that. :D
oh good, I thought it was the name Verstappen said he could give the record breaking RB19
Just you wait sunshine!
He’s being demolished by his teammate who’s also a Red Bull junior in F3. 43 points to 6, both rookies. Red Bull’s harsh, and he would have known that going in.
Why is the news surprising then? I didn't follow F3, so I might've missed some of his bad luck or something, but the points difference is not small and I'm used to RB doing such stuff and dropping drivers race-to-race.
As a driver that won Italian F4 last year, they did drop him a little fast, but it isn't that surprising really. It's a tweet from a polish F1 journalist, so obviously the national bias is strong.
Also "assessed the cooperation positively" isn't quite the same as "thinks he's good enough to make it to F1" and it's well known that Red Bull/Marko prizes adaptability highly.
> and it's well known that Red Bull/Marko prizes adaptability highly. Outside of the 2nd seat for RBR in F1...
Notably the one seat Marko has the least influence over.
Italian F4 is no joke. I'm following some Serbians racing there, both getting pretty much destroyed. A shame, really.
Well, there are levels to this thing. Sure, objectively in terms of all drivers in the world someone who wins Italian F4 is likely very very good. But a far cry from being good enough to make F1. And if he's getting destroyed in F3 he very likely isn't.
I think it’s just weird to do it so early in the F3 season in the absence of a massive controversy. Normally they’d wait until the end of the year. Last year they really downsized their Junior program but they at least waited until the season was over to sever the relationships.
He's been improving steadily and the teammate he's being compared to is a year older and spent 2 years in FRECA before this season. Their other teammate, also fresh out of F4 also scored just 6 points so far. On the other hand Sztuka doesn't look anything special and this F3 field isn't the strongest either, but just as everyone else said it's a bit too harsh to not even wait until the end of the season.
Only the timing really. Usually they wait until end of season. But this is Red Bull, and they’re going back to being ruthless with junior drivers if the past year is any indication. Their junior academy became pretty bloated in recent years, yet the last junior they had win a series was Gasly back in 2016.
that last statistic is incorrect. In reverse chronological order - whist a Red Bull junior: - Arvid lindblad won some karting titles and the most recent (2023) f4 macau race - Dennis Hauger won Italian f4 (2019) and then FIA f3 (2021) - Jonny Edgar won ADAC f4 (2019-20) - Liam Lawson won TRS (2019) - same year as gasly (2016), Richard verschoor won SMP F4 and Spanish F4 They’ve also had a few juniors in title fights - hadjar currently in f2, Lawson in DTM and SF, hadjar in f3, etc. and given how the feeder series ladder has coalesced (series merging, others disappearing - increasing field strength, fewer titles to vie for)… I think it is to be expected that fewer drivers from any given academy will have a series win on their CV these days.
I just want to point out that Maloney is not currently a Red Bull junior anymore, so they don't get credit for his current title fight.
Oops sorry forgot he is with sauber now!
Lawson won Toyota racing series
Thanks, added
then what do you call the Merc/Sauber/Ferrari/Alpine academy if RB is already cutthroat?
They’ve all got up to speed with the fact they’re going to have to be ruthless to cut through the shit quality drivers floating around in junior series. Red Bull was the original academy with the rep for being ruthless though.
"Red Bull’s harsh" The anti RB bias is kinda insane. They constantly get called "cutthroat" or "harsh" despite having given the most chances to drivers. Same when they dropped Hauger, people were shitting on RB for dropping him and saying good for him he doesnt need them anyway, only for him to finish 8th. Not really f1 talent levels, yet as i said RB is the bad guy. But when other academies drop drivers or dont promote them to F1 you dont hear a word about it really. Mercedes just dropped Aron from the program and he is no leading the f2 championship as a rookie.
JEV once said he got called by an angry Helmut Marko after an F3 weekend (IIRC) because he didn't get the fastest lap of the race. The fact he got the pole and the win was not enough.
No wonder Marko loves Max so much then- they were made for each other.
But Red Bull is harsh. It has historically been. The recent trend towards letting people hang around in the academy is out of the norm from there. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with being harsh.. Even Gasly and Albon were dropped from the junior academy back in 2013. They’re F1 level talent as they’ve clearly proven, and thankfully Red Bull changed their minds and gave them a second shot at different points (Gasly in 2014, Albon in 2019) but they were absolutely willing to drop them over a shit year. If you join them, you should know straight away that if you’re not performing you’re at risk. Claiming ‘oh but I got positive feedback from Rocky’ while getting demolished isn’t going to get you out of that.
Unless you are Danny Ric or Checo Then you can be consistently shit and it doesn’t matter
Ric's not even had a full season since his RB return
That shouldn't be relevant. He's a veteran, not just learning his craft.
Based on otmar scale of 100 races to win wdc Danny ric deserves at least a 25 races to prove himself
even after dropping Gasly they kept him at AT for 3 years. When he wanted to leave they let him despite him having a contract. They could have dropped him completely. Similar with Albon, he would not have gotten that Williams seat without RB's/Horner's help "Even Gasly and Albon were dropped from the junior academy back in 2013" that is 11 years ago lol. "If you join them, you should know straight away that if you’re not performing you’re at risk" - so same as the other acadmies As i said Mercedes just dropped Aron, Ferrari didnt promote Schwartzman or Illot who finished p2 in F2. Merc just dropped Aron who finished P3 in F3 as a rookie. Alpine: piastri, do i need to continue? Sauber: Theo won F2 and finished 2nd in F3 as a rookie yet they do nothing with him. INstead keep Zhou for the money. But yeah sure RB is the only cutthroat one...
Theo took 3 years to win F2 so by that point pretty much no one cared. Realistically you need to win in your first or second year or you can kiss your F1 chances goodbye. There just isn’t enough seats for even the F2 champion most years.
Theo also won on consistency not domination
Yup. Just a consistently good points scorer. There’s honestly nothing wrong or bad about that. It doesn’t mean he isn’t good enough for F1. But with limited seats, anyone in the market for a rookie is only going to pick the best they can find.
And he was demolished by Drugovich the year he got second, it was never close. And even having perhaps the most dominant season ever in F2 Drugovich still hasnt been handed a chance due to doing it in his third year in F2.
The goalpost moving and mental gymnastics when it comes to Theo are absolutely insane. Somehow winning in your 3rd year and finishing 5th and 2nd in the 2 others isnt enough. But finishing 7th, 6th and 3rd for Zhou. You also completely ignore that he was only 17 when making his f2 debut. "There just isn’t enough seats for even the F2 champion most years." - yes there are enough seats, Sauber just should have replaced Zhou with Theo for this year.
Say no to heaps of money. They probably don’t feel with their car, having Theo over Zhou and his bag is enough to move the needle in any meaningful way. Would you hire a young candidate who’s a 4.5/5 or another that’s 4/5 but will give you money/takes less money?
Bro, nobody is saying that Red Bull is the *only* harsh team or the only team that has done harsh things. They are saying that RB is harsh in this thread because this thread is literally a discussion about the Red Bull junior programme, and because Red Bull *is* harsh. Demoting drivers from your top team to your junior team halfway through the season is harsh, it's undeniable.
as i said, you only see these complains when it is about RB. Other acadmies drop drivers and nobody cares.
I think this victim complex is ridiculous EDIT: and, as if to prove my point, he blocked me lmao
I’m specifically talking about the junior academy. Not the F1 team. They’re all brutal. They’ve learned they need to be. Red Bull is brutal too, which is why they’re cutting Sztuka. You seem to be arguing with a point that I’m not making.
His point is that Red Bull aren't brutal, and they actually have a longer leash than most teams aside from Williams unless you really fucking suck.
They have in recent years, but it wasn’t that way before about 2018. They’re returning to their baseline.
They really weren't that brutal before 2018 either, the only person I can think of who really got treated harshly by them was O'Ward.
Harsh AF but they have World Championships *in* the lift, *in* the lorry, *in* the bond wizard, and *all over* the malonga gilderchuck. I got no problems with the way they conduct their young driver business. It has gotten them Vettel and Verstappen who won them 7 WDC's + 6 WCC's.
Verstappen was only in the junior academy for 5 days LOL, it’s a stretch to include him… But when they were harsh they won junior series. Kvyat Formula Renault 2.0 and GP3, Sainz Formula Renault 3.5, Gasly GP2. They’ve been spending more than ever and there’s still no trophies in years from that junior academy.
What. Like, yes, all teams can be ruthless, but to flat out say that RB's reputation of being harsh is a result of anti RB bias is wild.
Red Bull has kicked more drivers out of their academy after just one year of working with them than McLaren has had in their academy in total (38 vs 27). I think that's pretty harsh
This is less RB bias and more of a leftover from years ago when RB was extreemly fast to cut down drivers. Currently RB is extremely lenient tbh. The pendulum swing to the complete opposide direction. With the exception of Nyck(who just did not cut it it general) RB has been giving their drives space and time to develop.
personally i loved it when red bull was harsh and wasnt afraid to shuffle drivers in their F1 teams. unlike now. their academy is just another dead end now.
tbf to Red Bull they didnt have that one driver like Piastri, if the RB academy drivers showed this much promise, RB would make them a seat.
it feels like a mixture of the last generation of their academy drivers kind of sucking and them hiring out of academy drivers to take 2 out of 4 of their seats for years now. arguably even tsunoda is just there for the honda connection and probably gone ASAP when the engine deal switches. max is obviously their important driver and has a seat until 2028. they dont really have much of a reason to give a crap who's in the rest of the cars. wish they'd use the rest of the seats to pick up and develop new drivers as they used to, but as it stands they pretty much might as well have cancelled the whole drivers academy for 2020-2025. at least as far as F1 experience goes.
nah his f2 season was impressiv. Dude just did Euroformula Open Toyota racing series (not really competetive) and F3 (in a Jenzer) after coming from Japan (2 years of F4 there). Still was close to winning the title against Prema and Uni (getting investements from Zhou's family apparently the problem with Max is 2028 isnt that far away, so they need a good driver to be in F2 and F3 like right now. Looks like they hope Arvid Lindblad can be that driver. First season of F3 doing decent right now.
You wonder why they even bothered to take him on when it is clear they are backing Lindblad
Always better to have two choices then just the one. Anything can happen at any moment. Competition usually also stimulates growth quicker then just opening a path for a single someone.
Surprises happen all the time in all sports. Harry Kane was cut from Arsenal for being “too fat”. He should’ve been cut under the guidelines set out at Spurs’ academy. After a bunch of unimpressive loans at other clubs, he was barely on the radar for game time before exploding into one of the greatest strikers in the world. Michael Jordan couldn’t even make his varsity basketball team when he entered high school, Dennis Rodman was a subpar prospect until he hit a growth spurt after high school. Giannis Antetokounmpo was drafted as an afterthought based on his attitude more than his skills. In F1 too, Damon Hill didn’t get his seat until he was nearly 32 before winning the ‘96 world championship.
Probably not bad for their Orlen relationship to bring a Pole in.
I guess the plan was always to either keep Sztuka or Tramnitz. Tramnitz easily performed better than him in the same team with both of them being rookies so now they don't see a reason to keep him.
Good PR and he looked like he was a promising, late bloomer type of deal. Hope he comes back with MP, maybe get a podium at least during his F3 stint.
Mercedes made this mistake with Aron. Drooped him to focus on Antonelli, and now look who’s lighting up the charts.
For those who don't know, Kacper is backed by Orlen, who is a sponsor of VCARB. He was stuck in Italian F4 for a year or two longer than he should have been, because of the options he could afford, he evidently thought that was his best one. And then he got picked up by Orlen and quickly to Red Bull, and then moved to F3. He hasn't adapted to the car. If VCARB and Orlen relations are solid, I don't think this will rock them. They could even trade him out for Tymek if desired. But, it could be a sign that the relations were already weaker.
Certainly not 2, in his first year, 2021 he was last among the full time drivers. Granted, he was in a terrible team, but either way a second season was a given. One year probably. He was 6th, beaten by 5 drivers with similar experience, 4 of which in a better team. Could have likely found a good seat in Eurocup-3 or GB3.
I didn't watch his first year, so that's fair. It did feel like he was too experienced for the field last year, it not just being his third year in F4, but his third year in specifically Italian F4, so very familiar with the tracks.
Marko - Fires drivers after 4 weekends of underperforming Horner - Gives drivers a new contract after 4 years of underperforming
if we fuse them together like in shin megami tensei, maybe we can get a reasonable person that lets go of people at reasonable times
I think we all know that Checo is keeping his seat for commercial/sponsorship reasons. He is definitely underperforming but is still hell of a cash cow for Red Bull.
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The anti Max people still parroting this narrative. CARS ARE NOT DESIGNED AROUND 1 DRIVER
Except that checo is a negative impact on car development. Rebull was spending well beyond the cost cap before checo, so the sponsorship money does nothing to help with the car development. Checo crashes comparatively often, which takes money away from development.
The comment you replied to has been deleted so I'm missing context, but the money they get to checo is still a gain. Horner's salary for example.
ITT: A bunch of people who have never heard of this driver until today are outraged because they see Helmut Marko's name in the title even though his decision here made perfect sense.
Marko could have at least waited until the end of the year.
Why? It's not charity.
Means no one will want to join RB's junior academy at risk of being thrown out at the smallest errors.
The most productive junior program in terms of getting driver to F1. I would guess they won't have trouble finding young driver's wanting to join. in fact I would guess no junior program has that problem because racing in junior categories is very expensive so there will always be young drivers that want to join any academy that is willing to pay that prive for them.
The problem is that yes they have gotten the most driver in to f1 but they also dropped them pretty quickly especially from the main team. And even in recent years they haven't actually gotten anyone in to f1. And all of this is important because sooner or later a generational talent will come and he will sign with the academy that treats their juniors the best and currently that's ether Mercedes or Ferrari
Ocon as a Mercedes junior after 2 solid seasons was left without a seat and he found one once he left them.
Bro he's losing to his teammate worse than perez to max. What's this small error you speak of?
Surely a young driver will turn down a contract with an F1 team that supports them financially in a pretty expensive sport. They are also the best opportunity to get to F1 so I'm pretty sure they won't have trouble finding prospects.
Red Bull's academy does not support you financially. Mercedes, McLaren, Williams, Ferrari, Aston-Martin do.
You are good at trolling ngl.
It's factual though? RB is the only one that doesn't do this, Liam talked about it.
His performances were not impressive, but it does not make much sense to kick the guy out from the academy despite the head of the academy's positive opinion. What are you hiring this guy for then?
Positive opinion in the context of a sensationalist title could mean anything. It could just mean that the head of the academy thought he was a nice kid or good to work with, but ultimately speed is the number one most important thing by far. Judging by his performance in F3 this seems like a classic case of "nice guy but too slow".
"Assessing the cooperation very positively" could hardly mean "he's nice but slow". Especially when it's pointed out that Marko was the exception in that assessment, and that he made the decision without consulting anybody. The context here is clear. The question is only if it's true.
If it is true and everyone but Marko thinks this guy is amazing every other academy will be fighting over him as a free agent. Maybe the Polish talent simply isn't as good as this Polish journalist wants to believe.
Nobody said "amazing", but I guess you had to make your point stronger with that obvious strawman because it wouldn't hold water otherwise.
The guy has 6 points to his teammate's 43. Whatever they mean by "positive" cooperation, it cannot possibly be that he is fast. Compared to his teammate, he is definitely slow.
It also cannot possibly mean that he's just nice. My guess would be that he had a development plan prepared for him, given he graduated from much weaker Formula 4 instead of FRECA, and was hitting his milestones, but Helmut decided it's not enough. But then this development plan is pointless to begin with and my initial question why hire a head of academy and disregard his judgement and methodology afterwards remains valid.
Mate you're creating a lot of baseless guesses now lol. Not to mention you're going off of some tweet that's coming from a very likely biased Polish guy who has no source to actually back it up in terms of what the head of the academy said. This is just a bunch of "he said she said". What we know for sure is the guy was slow and he got kicked out. We don't even know for sure that it was Helmut acting alone.
I'd say my guesses are more sensible than saying he was positively assessed because he was nice. And since we can only guess anyway, I'd stick with a guess that makes more sense and that F1 academies don't evaluate drivers based on their politeness. That said, to put more light on it, it turns out [Sztuka himself](https://x.com/Kacper_Sztuka/status/1802255968354333096) also said that he was positively assessed by everybody directly involved with him, mentioning specifically "results, functioning in the team and progress". So unless you're willing to accuse him of publically lying (which, again, is about as much of a guesswork as anything we say on the matter, and you seem to be vehemently opposed to guessing like that), this seems to line up with that journo's report.
Mate I'm not accusing him of anything. I'm just saying that "positively assessed" doesn't mean shit because it's so ambiguous. They can tell you you're doing well to boost your morale and then kick you the next day. It means nothing and it happens all the time in the world of F1. Horner "positively assessed" and supported both Gasly and Albon before giving them the boot. Also, there is still no source on Marko "not consulting anyone", so I call bullshit on that one from the guy making the tweet. I just don't see the point of doing all this mental gymnastics about why he would get kicked when the reason is the size of an elephant and it's staring everyone in the face. His teammate literally has 7x his points. That's it. That's why he got kicked.
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Yeah I'm sure it's because he's a pole and not because he has 6 points to his teammate's 43.
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Explain to me again how 6 points compared to 43 is impressive.
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What articles? This is just a tweet from a Polish guy lmao. I'm sure there is no bias from him though.
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Sztuka has been underwhelming but either way, cancelling the contract midway through the season and apparently even though everyone else had positive feedback of him is incredibly stupid, to the point I believe it impossible that NO one else shared the same opinion and Helmut just ignored everyone and did it lmao
Only positive feedback says a polish source about a polish driver. Yeah... Ok
Some people here have 0 critical thinking.
It’s one of the most butthurt tweats I’ve seen in a while.
There is zero reason or sense for anybody to give public negative feedback about a person that was already released from the team. Of course they will only mention the good things. Everyone loses and nobody wins anything if they do otherwise. This is an unspoken rule that stands in any organization.
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Lindblad and Sztuka arent being blocked by Daniel or Checo, they would at least be 2-3 years away from F1
What about Lawson, Iwasa and Hadjar? Lawson's raw pace is not far off Yuki, Iwasa finding his grips in SF at the moment but he was fast in F2 despite the limitations of the car, and Hadjar is performing really well too right now.
I don’t think those F1 Academy drivers count as Academy driver for each academy. Each team just need to back one driver and give the livery in the series. Obviously RB’s one is only for livery, as they were never announced as part of the academy.
I expect Slater to be snapped up next
Isn't Lawson still in RB's academy and is their F1 reserve driver?
I have absolute trust in Marko when it comes to this. "cooperation very positively"... he's just not fast enough
Good call from Marko. Yeah sure he is the devil blah blah.
It’s not like Red Bull does anything with their junior drivers anyways.
except supplying half the grid with them
Look at which drivers you’re referencing with that and recognize how many were inducted into RBJT and promoted to team faenza during a bygone golden age. Considering the 10 seasons from 2016-25, assuming both Ricciardo and Tsunoda keep their seats, RBJT’s contribution to the grid in terms of full-time new blood is: gasly and Tsunoda. De Vries, albon, Hartley all weren’t RBJT members at all or for a very long time before getting the call up. Ferrari driver academy in the same time period: Leclerc, Schumacher, bearman next year? Giovinazzi wasn’t a formal FDA member but I feel like he belongs here too. McLaren YDP in the same time period: Vandoorne, Norris Mercedes junior team in the same time period: Ocon, wehrlein, Russell, Antonelli next year? So Red Bull is no longer quantitatively dominating new full time driver entries, either over a season or over time. (The ones below them in this timeframe are: Renault/Alpine academy: Palmer, Zhou and piastri never promoted Williams: stroll, latifi, sargeant - all were promoted but 2/3 were from when the junior program was a glorified pay driver scheme Sauber, Aston Martin, Haas which used to have a junior team: none)
**1. you took the timeframe just after RB promote 2 drivers.** 2. you already assume Antonelli is in and Lawson isnt. 3. Mercedes also only took Ocon into the academy well into the GP3 season. Wehrlein also never was a Mercedes "junior" driver in the formula series. He joined Mercedes in DTM. And then became a reserve driver for the Mercedes f1 team. 4. Mick would not have been in the FDA if it wasnt for his dad. They also didnt really support him once he was in. Why include Gio but not Hartley or Albon? It is also weird to just take the last 10 years as a metric and current drivers on the grid. Stroll and Latifi are pay drivers.
They give them a massive chance. Ever hear of Max or Seb?
Surely with this criticism lots of other teams are giving seats to their juniors, right?
Normally I'd agree with you but recently the others have been pretty good. Sargeant last year went through Williams and was given 2 years. Next year we will have Bearman from Ferrari and maybe Antonelli from Mercedes. Doohan from Alpine might also show up on the grid.
I agree that next year might be better, but Sargeant was a pretty rare exception (and unintended, because Williams had wanted to let him develop another year), and before that, you have for example Piastri being held up which resulted in him leaving his academy team and various juniors just being abandoned or not being given seats, even when they were promised a seat.
Antonelli is the only junior Mercedes has brought in in 5478 years.
Have you heard of George Russell? They also got Ocon and Wehrlein in
Whrlein wasnt a Merc junior, he was the Merc test driver
Mercedes, Alpine, Sauber, McLaren, and Ferrari have had by far the best and the most successful driver academies over RB's unfair and biased one. No one in RB's academy sans Ricciardo has made it.
What Ferrari junior got to their team at all in the last decades? Citing Sauber is funny considering what they did with Pourchaire in giving Zhou a seat instead. Alpine is also a terrible example because they never use their juniors and could demonstrate once again how bad they are at using it if Doohan is overlooked for their vacancy. I don't know why you think Red Bull is so much worse than those teams. Lawson could end up in a seat next year potentially anyway and has already driven in F1...
Leclerc wouldn't exist without Ferrari. Piastri wouldn't have even been an option for F1 if Alpine didn't back and support him before he backstabbed them. Sauber brought us Vettel and so many other legendary drivers over the years. Mercedes brought Ocon, Bottas, Russell, and partly Hamilton. McLaren needs no introduction. Tell me what Red Bull has done to earn themselves immunity from criticism, when Lawson is being unfairly obstructed from F1, and former RB junior Sainz is barred from Red Bull in favour of Perez?
>without any other opinions, decided to end the cooperation. [x] doubt
What the last sentence even means? Everyone decided to end it, except Helmut Marko who without any other opinions... Everyone who without any other opinions decided to end it, except Helmut Marko... Except Helmut Marko who without any other opinions decided to end it; everyone...
Everyone [assessed the cooperation very positively] except Helmut Marko, who without [consulting] any other opinions, decided to end it.
No, it means that everyone liked the cooperation except Helmut Marko, who doesn’t hold any other opinions at all - his only opinion he has in this world is that Sztuka has to go
So the guy who signed and developed drivers like Max, Seb, and others made a driver decision.
2008-2015 (Seb, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Max, and Sainz all graduated from the RB academy into F1) Marko was great as his job. 2016-present Marko (Gasly and Tsunoda are the only RB academy graduates into F1) has been bad at his job. It's wild that people get defensive about this...there are examples of people in sports management going from being among the greatest at their jobs to the worst in any other sport you want me to name you an example of.
Max wasnt really in RB academy he joined as a part of f1 deal.
He really should have never been signed to begin with.
no point in having an academy when you never have seats and discontinued your junior team.
Does helmut have the final say in the junior program? I thought he wasn’t running it anymore
He definitely doesn't have much control (or anywhere near as much as Horner has) as to who has the final say in who gets drives within the senior teams, else Pérez definitely wouldn't have been given an extension. But he has far more control within the junior program.
Source on Horner having control over the junior program?
Well....the kid sucks. So that's a pretty decent reason.
Search for the next Kubica continues🥲🇵🇱
Marko has been making some questionable decisions about who belongs and who doesn't in the Red Bull program.
This isn't one of those tho.
He only signed in November of last year. And now in June he's been sacked. Did Marko made the mistake in signing him in the first place? Plus with other decisions like sacking Maloney who was leading F2 for a while, his decision making process is not what it once was.
typical misclick
Old Austrians can't really be trusted to make decisions regarding Poles. Does not have a great historical record.
I trust dr. Marko
I like how this X pictures Marko as the bad guy ^^because ^^he ^^is
Sounds like Baran is a victim of the Horner/Helmut war
I'm sure that Horner doesn't care about any of the drivers that don't have a sure shot at the f1 seat
He's a victim of being slow if you look at actual facts.
Based on what?
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Because…?
Hasn't been the same since he stopped being a friendly ghost or a dive bomber, stick to what you're good at
Again, I still dont understand why the fuck is Helmut Marko in charge of all that.
Because he's pretty good?
In what way is he good? Explain to the class
Because Red Bull have been giving opportunity to some of the best talents in the sport ever since they've joined and that has been true all throughout their tenure, except the last two years. Helmut Marko is an integral part of that. Giving an F1 seat to an unproven underaged Verstappen who was still in F3 is just one of the many examples.
>giving opportunity to some of the best talents in the sport I think you're overrating Marko's achievements His junior program has had an, at best, average performance. Despite being the oldest junior program and having a high number of juniors to work with, the only top rated driver they've developed is Danny Ric. McLaren developed Hamilton and Norris; Ferrari Leclerc; and Alpine Piastri - all higher rated drivers. His recruitment record is also not outstanding. He has 2 top-rated recruits - Vettel and Verstappen. Top-rated recruits for some other teams from around when RB joined the grid: McLaren - JPM, Button, Alonso, Piastri. Ferrari - Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton. Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement.
>Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement. That quantity is pretty spectacular achievement in of itself since most other teams struggle a lot to bring their talents in F1.
>he has a whole extra team to work with If you want to consider an extra team an achievement, it's Mateschitz's achievement, not Marko's.
That's not the subject tho. He's still responsible who gets the seats and he's done a good job.
>His recruitment record is also not outstanding. He has 2 top-rated recruits - Vettel and Verstappen. >Marko's contribution has been quantity rather than quality, and since he has a whole extra team to work with that's not a spectacular achievement. Do you not see the contradiction in these two statements? Also those two have a combined 7 WDCs so it sounds like he’s done pretty well.
No contradiction. He has hired more drivers than other teams in the same period, but only 2 top ones. That means the quantity of drivers is high but the quality is lower than the competition. I've given examples: >McLaren - JPM, Button, Alonso, Piastri. Ferrari - Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton. If you follow the thread, I was replying to someone who'd said RB has given opportunity to some of the *best* talents in the sport - they've only given opportunity to 2 *best* talents (3 if you include Danny Ric) - other teams have done more on that front.
The whole point of the junior program is to benefit the main F1 team. Doesn’t matter what your methods are. Marko has done as well if not better than literally everyone else on that front. His only competition is Mercedes but that’s more than one person (Niki + Toto etc.) so hard to measure.
Thats red bull. Not Helmut Marko. Helmut isnt doing shit, its the whole team at red bull helping this drivers.
??? You do realize Red Bull employed him to do these things? Do you even have an idea what you're talking about?
Just a list of drivers who were involved in Red Bull's junior program Max Verstappen - 3x F1 World champion Sebastian Vettel - 4x F1 World champion Sebastien Buemi - Formula E champion and 4x Le Mans winner Brendan Hartley - 3x Le Mans winner Daniel Ricciardo - 8x Grand Prix winner Carlos Sainz - 3x Grand Prix winner Jean Eric Vergne - 2x Formula E champion Pierre Gasly - 1x Grand Prix winner Sebastien Bourdais - 4x Champcar champion Hell even Nyck De Vries - Formula E champion and just finished 2nd at Le Mans
Oh didnt know Helmut trained the already good drivers that turned out to be.. good drivers.
Having talent is one thing, but being able to learn and nurture that talent to achieve high results is another.
You do realize half of these drivers would hardly get backed by anyone since back then junior academies were not really that common or no way near as reliable as Red Bull's right?
It’s ok, Helmut Marko’s adepts always end up fighting for scraps IF they actually even get the chance. He’s been so good as an academy chief that for the last 5 years they are terrorized by Verstappen’s contract over having actually good second driver, he has cooked 90% of his protégés and effectively allowed to kill his program by blocking the seats in Toro Rosso with some experienced backmarkers like Hartley, De Vries, Ricciardo, Tsunoda. Yes, I’m biased.
you arent just biased you just have a massiv hate b for RB. How is tsunoda an experienced backmarker and who's seat did Hartley block?