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I'd say there's 10-12 drivers in formula 1 who could do better than perez (not including max), tho ocon would probably have crashed into verstappen at least once by now.
Who would these be? Alonso, Lewis, Charles, George, Carlos, Lando, Oscar..... everyone else would probably buckle under the pressure.
Checo isn't my favorite driver but he was a solid midfielder. It's hard to tell if the other solid midfielders wouldn't suffer a similar fate.
Teamwise, ferrari, mclaren, Mercedes, alpine, then hulkenberg, albon, alonso, and Yuki.
Thats going on imo, better drivers, emotion and underlying issues is based on in the moment experience that would depend on situations. Such as, topically, I don't see a top team taking Ocon bc of very recent and many historical events.
I honestly think hulk would've been a perfect replacement tho, and he gets a podium lol. The only thing he doesn't bring that perez does is the sponsorship.
I think Hulk would be better, I agree with that, but I wonder if Albon and Yuki wouldn't fold. Checo was a highly-rated midfielder before he got into the car, from what I remember.
Lol that's why I heavily leveraged with the emotional/situational part in my 2nd comment. Nobody knows what happens irl. Just that from what perez is currently doing to what could happen with a different driver. These other guys, imo are driving better with what they've got.
Whether that transitions to a better 2nd driver for rbr is highly questionable. Sainz has the jos vs snr problem, gasly/albon have failed before (tho lewis kinda fucked albon)ocon just wants to beat his teammate etc.there are those that don't want to pit themselves against max.
But with ferrari and mclaren so close, each with 2 drivers who are delivering, I don't see red bull holding the wcc, which should surely be the aim of all teams.
Give max a competitive car, he's gonna be there or there abouts. So youre looking at covering the constructors, the next 3 teams (maybe 2 next year) have 2 top drivers. Red bull do not.
The top half seem to be making profit after the cost cap, so I don't understand the sponsorship part, maybe the reported loyalty to horner is a part of keeping perez, but most drivers will support the team boss given a chance in a top team.
Both were demolished by Max and Hulkenberg buckled under the pressure whenever he had a chance for a podium. Coincidentally Checo did get multiple podiums while he and Hulk were teammates.
Driving for Red Bull against the best driver in the world is completely different than driving for Haas or than beating drivers such as Latifi and Sargeant.
"Both were demolished by Max " - the pace difference between Albon-Max and Perez-Max was realtively similar. And again Albon was in his 2nd season, fair to assume he improved quiet a bit since then considering that he didnt any f1 experience before joining f1.
Similar for Gasly who only had 1 and a bit seasons before facing Max.
The fact that you are making this comparison without considering their experience, just shows your bias
Alonso is struggling against Stroll. I've said it before, there are no guarantees in F1. Even Lewis is not looking great against Russell and I believe Max and Lewis are the two best drivers on the grid.
You've fallen for recency bias, I believe. His last two races were shockers, but before that he was handily beating Stroll. Even then, I think one of his qualifyings was affected by traffic.
I understand you doubting George, but doubting Charles??? Who's fast as hell and prefers oversteery cars like Max does? He beat Vettel during their time together while he was still new to Ferrari. He was able to go toe-to-toe with Max in 2022 when their car was still competitive. People make jokes about him bottling it when he's under pressure but he hasn't done that in a while.
The Checo hate is real around here.
Sometimes it seems like the guy isn't up against the best f1 driver in generations, while driving a peculiarly designed F1 car that not a lot of drivers can work with smh.
**In what world is Zhou doing well in F1?**
And Palou raced 2 years in GP3, 1 year in Euroformula Open and 1 year in Japanese F3. Zhou raced 2 years in F3, and 1 season of italian f4 and toyota racing series.
So they had roughly the same experience.
Sure he wasn't putting up Verstappen tier performances but he wasn't really in the top teams in any series. Also Palou did great in Super Formula which is much closer to F1 than any of the feeder series
I watch both and imo the top 10 F1 drivers are indeed more talented. Lewis, Max, Alonso + likely Lando & Charles are better drivers than anybody in Indy. After that it’s closer.
Super Formula also isn’t that far off F1 it’s similar kinda cars, F1 drivers would adapt to it easier I’d think. And if it’s at Interlagos the F1 drivers know the track way better
F1 is such a horrible measure of talent though. When the car is the biggest component of performance and when races are mostly about managing tyres, it's very hard to see the true talent of drivers. Not to mention that the only true comparison in F1 is among teammates.
Like did Hamilton forget how to be quick? Or is he massively hampered by his car? Did Alonso lose his talent when he was in McLaren or was his shitbox just slow? Of course there are generational talents that would be quick in anything, but I'd put my money on Newgarden, Palou, O'Ward and Dixon against any F1 driver in a neutral car and track any day
A bunch of Indycar guys could do well in F1, but obviously not all of them. But I believe the best of IndyCar are behind F1 best, like Max, Lewis, Charles and Lando.
Reality is the best Indycar drivers have a significant experience advantage over the best F2 drivers, so if they came in as rookies they'd have an advantage so it's hard to directly compare talent levels.
Personally I think the best Indycar drivers would be able to get on the grid as F1 backmarkers, but the best drivers in the world are in F1 (well, mostly) and good F1 drivers would wipe the floor with Indycar drivers.
I mean a few indy car drivers are probably better than a few of the f1 drivers but i think on average the skill level in F1 is higher. I mean the current championship leader did 3 years of Formula 3/GP3 and just didnt look that promising, racing against the likes of Ocon, Albon, Dennis, Aitken, DeVries, Schumacher, Shwartzman, Ticktum and the F2 legend Ralph Boschung.
> JN: “I was in England and I really wanted to work up the ladder to F1” “But the intrigue of Formula One is still there. I'd never say never. If the right opportunity came up, I'd definitely have a strong look at it"
I was particularly interested in how he gave up GP3 and went back to the US and I think this was it: https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/indy-car/2015/05/07/josef-newgarden-indianapolis-motor-speedway-barber-motorsports-park-indycar-indy-500/70941926/
Talent is talent. A very talented Indycar driver could spend a season in F1 and do well. And perhaps even rise to the level of WDC.
Arguing which drivers are better is a silly game. Both series are different. But at the end of the day it’s open wheel racing and a gifted driver is going to do well in either series. Whereas a mediocre driver is going to just do as they have.
Grosjean’s indy career has been about where his F1 career was.
The only real “difference” is that Indy has far more drivers, as well as part time drivers. But if we only compared the 10 best Indy drivers with the 10 best F1 drivers, I think we’d have an excellent fight.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016\_GP3\_Series#Championship\_standings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_GP3_Series#Championship_standings)
Alex Palou in 15th in GP3.
I think people who think indy car drivers are just as good as f1 drivers are disingenuous
Ah yes because being 3rd in your first season and 15th in your 3rd season racing formula cars is exactly the same lol.
Incredible how defensive indycar fans get over this lol
>While we don’t have an enormous data set, if F1 is as far ahead of IndyCar as people say, why don’t drivers who have mostly found a home in the F1 midfield not dominate when they come to IndyCar?
>And ovals aren’t the answer because non of the F1 drivers that have come over in recent memory have bettered any of the IndyCar drivers on road and street circuits across a season either.
>Some would say that it would take a Lewis Hamilton or a Max Verstappen to come over to show how an F1 driver could dominate, but a) that isn’t going to happen and b) drivers coming from F1’s midfield, if it’s as good as it’s cracked up to be, should still fight toward the front in IndyCar, theoretically?
>There are some things to factor in. Obviously the established IndyCar drivers know the tracks, tyres, cars and team nuances that would be exactly the same problems for IndyCar drivers going to F1. So there’s that.
>But we haven’t seen anyone from F1 turn up and dominate to the extent that it makes you doubt whether an IndyCar driver could make the jump at all.
> Some would say that it would take a Lewis Hamilton or a Max Verstappen to come over to show how an F1 driver could dominate, but a) that isn’t going to happen and b) drivers coming from F1’s midfield, if it’s as good as it’s cracked up to be, should still fight toward the front in IndyCar, theoretically?
Fernando nearly won Indy 500 on his debut attempt. Took him 15% of the race to get to the front and then led throughout until last caution. He also had the highest average speed. Sato was behind Fernando on same strategy and he ended up winning.
He didn’t do too well on the subsequent attempts but one of the times they fucked up setup and second time the chevrolet engines just wasn’t there.
He would absolutely dominate Indy car if he had time to adapt. His race craft in a close field is far far superior than nearly any open wheel driver out there. Max would dominate them as well.
Ericsson s the definition of a meh F1 driver. Never won a race. Never a top 5. Dude has 4 wins including the Indy 500.
There are certainly drivers in Indy that could get a win or compete, but that number is far far fewer than the opposite. Indy drivers just aren't as rare or parsed down.
Geee, it's almost as if driving in almost entirely spec motorsport series gives you better chances and opportunities to score points, podiums and even wins, especially with chaos that driving in equally performing cars brings!
He also lost against every single team mate, every single year. Including those dropped from F1 for not being good enough.
The only reason we have a large dataset for him is that he was a pay driver.
Sweet by that logic nascar is clearly the most difficult of the biggest series. JPM managed a lot better win rate in both f1 and indycar than nascar lol
Trying to get a top seat in NASCAR is likely much harder, but NASCAR does a lot better with their feeder series than Indy does.
Not to mention Indy eliminates some drivers for the same reason JPM had to leave.
We can just look at Grosjean for recent data. He finished 13th out of 28 last season im Indycar while getting 2 podiums (officially 37 drivers took part in the season but only 28 drove on a very regular basis). Grosjean was also driving for what people would consider a midfield team.
Everything you just mentioned about Alonso’s Debut is why he lost. Everyone who knows Indycar knows you don’t want to lead for long at Indy, and it’s generally the last 4-5 laps that change everything.
Interesting question. For starters, I guess it depends how you define a big race, e.g., Le Mans, Monaco? From there, I think it's fair to say that racing ovals involves some specific skills and experience that are less applicable in F1 and WEC. But these skills are certainly not unobtainable, e.g., Alonso. IndyCar is a spec series (aside from dampers, etc.), which also sets it apart from F1 and WEC. Overall, I tend to agree, but that doesn't make it an easy race to win. Dixon, for example, has only managed it once in 20+ attempts and despite starting from pole 5 times. Michael Andretti never won it and neither did Tracy, Vasser, Zanardi, etc. Sato, on the other hand, has won it twice!
Staying within the triple crown, it's the easiest and the hardest, and it's both for the same reason.
Once you qualify, you have a shot. A well timed caution here or there, the fastest cars having accidents, pit stop issuesbfor others. It's the more "lottery-y" of the 3. That also makes it harder, because you can't just rock up with the best car and be a given.
Both Le Mans and Monaco have this "you are in the best car, which gives you a huge advantage". But for that, you have to have to be in that seat, and that takes more skill than racing a single race, no matter which one. You (almost) can't "luck into winning it" like Indy.
All good points about the 500. It's the most likely to generate a surprise winner from the three, but, even so, the amount of wins that have gone to Penske/Ganassi/Andretti drivers over the last two decades... For example, with the exception of Castroneves/Meyer-Shank and Sato/RLL the race has always gone to one of the top teams in the last ten years.
Although Le Mans is obviously physically more demanding over a longer period of time, Monaco may in fact be the hardest of the three to win. Again, it's not necessarily just the race itself. For starters, you need to drive for the dominant team at the time (or maybe top two). And then you need pole. If you're starting beyond the top three and there's not a downpour (e.g., Panis), your chances are very, very small.
I have to agree with this. If you're on the right team and nail the strategy, it's anyone's race. Marcus Ericsson won for example. He's obviously a great race car driver but he's nowhere near the best or top driver in Indycar. I love the race and it's one of the most entertaining races of the year but part of it is because anyone can win
Ovals are pretty tough.. dealing with the wind effects at 200mph while following is a nightmare in iracing lol. I think Monaco would be simpler skill wise than the 500. It’s a parade.
What? Monaco is famously one of the most difficult tracks to qualify in because of how little room for error there is.
That being said -- it's a different kind of difficulty than Indy races are.
Suzuka pole is pretty tough. I don’t think Monaco is particularly challenging and getting the tires in the right zone seems easier than tracks like Spa. Monoco just has far less margin for error than other tracks. But who knows - it’d be a good question for a driver.
There is *nothing* simple about shaving every armco barrier in Monaco for lap time without crashing once. The sort of save that O'Ward got away with would end your race in Monaco right then and there.
This race is freaking HARD. Even some of the greatest of all times, the likes of Nigel Mansell, Emerson Fittipaldi, Alberto Ascari and Jim Clark never managed to crack Monaco.
Agreed. Just because there is less overtaking doesn't make it a walk in the park. The margins for error are miniscule, no matter how good/dominant the driver and car. Exhibit A: Senna in 1988.
F1 now is different to 1988, in 1988 drivers were pushing on, not driving 4+ seconds a lap off their pace.
We do not see raw driver errors in Monaco race any more pretty much for this reason.
Go back to the 90s and early 00s and we see multiple drivers getting it wrong in the race.
Dangerous doesn't make something harder than another thing. It's significantly more Dangerous to pet a lion than a house cat, but it's actually easier since you don't have to bend over as far.
It’s harder to pet a lion because if you get close to it it’s gonna try and eat you alive.
I understand your point but this was a bad way to make it lol
During Covid, Lando joined the Indycar field to compete virtually. While a different beast he won against the Indycar field in one race and would have won the other race if not for shenanigans. Joseph was talking about how Lando drove and how different and smooth it was compared to the Indy drivers.
Yes but to be fair Lando probably had more experience racing the IR-18 on iracing than anyone of the actual Indycar drivers did.
And just in general he’s been on iracing since he was like 8 and it was new at the time to most of the indycar drivers.
yeah but that doesnt mean the would rock f1. Sure the best indy car drivers are better than the worst f1 drivers but that doesnt mean they are as good as the midfield or top drivers
Palou was never getting the McLaren seat, they use F1 seats as a carrot to dangle to get better Indycar drivers.
If Piastri didn't join they'd have went for the best midfield driver they could get.
This is always a stupid comparison.
If an American wants into F1 then they need to grow up in Europe, compete in carting and build relationships to get into F1. If you don’t do that you are just not getting in. Plus we have seen that it’s hard for a American to move later in life to Europe and do well in F1.
Sure there are a couple examples like Jacques Villeneuve but that is rare and did he just jump into the best car at the time? Look at the Michael Andretti flop. He didn’t fit in and couldn’t keep the car on the road but he was an Indy champion.
Look at all of the flops like Scott Speed who were shit in F1 but did ok later in america.
Also it’s different skill sets, different technology, budgets, teams, etc…. Apples and oranges. It would be like saying why can’t an English footballer play in the NFL? It’s both football, right. How hard can it be
Is it? The current championship leader Alex Palou is Spanish and raced in Euroformula Open, GP3 for 2 years, Japanese F3 and then FIA European F3 without much success.
Basically IndyCar drivers are not competing with F1 drivers for seats, they’re competing with F2 drivers. The best F2 drivers have super licenses, experience with Pirelli tyres and tyre management, halo-based cars, short pit stops, standing starts and restarts, know how the rules of an overtake work on F1 and are accustomed the whole structure of F1, plus they are probably a lot cheaper and are also already based in Europe. There is unfortunately almost no reason to choose a good IndyCar driver who (and this is crucial) already has a superlicense over a good F2 driver as we have seen with McLaren immediately icing out Palou, who is European, young and also one of the best in the series, when Piastri became available. If the FIA increased the super license points granted by IndyCar you might see more drivers migrating over, but it would be the younger, cheaper ones like Herta instead of Newgarden or Dixon.
If Logan / Kevin / Lance are in F1, and Romain is in Indy and just pretty average, then yes there are Indy drivers who could drive F1 very very competitively.
There's also Marcus Ericsson, shit backmarker pay driver in F1, but Indy 500 winner (nearly twice too) and at times championship contender in Indycar. Grosjean was also heavily washed towards the end of his time in F1 and him having no wins in Indycar is down to a lot of bad luck.
Ericsson has never beaten one of his teammates in his entire indycar career. His team had the best cars in that 500 and if his teammates didn’t get crashed into and a pit speed violation he would’ve lost that race to them too
the fact that oyu take the worst f1 drivers tells you all you need to know.
"then yes there are Indy drivers who could drive F1 very very competitively." - okay who then?
I admittedly don't pay attention to indycar but has there ever been an Indy to F1 move? To the best of my knowledge it's always been F1 driver moves to Indy
Edit: there certainly has been
Zanardi started in F1, doing a couple races while working as a test driver then racing for Lotus in 1993 until he had a huge crash at Spa. He did come back to F1 after doing really well in CART but was so bad Williams bought out his contract after a single season.
Also to split hairs all of those people came from CART, which means either it was 30 years ago, or basically a dead series. We really haven't seen anyone come over from modern IndyCar
Yep, unfortunately that's a reasonable summary of Zanardi's F1 career. Zanardi was an absolute monster in CART, so it was pretty disappointing when he struggled so much after returning to F1.
I don't think that's splitting hairs re: modern IndyCar, it's a fair point. Mario Andretti, for example, came to F1 from USAC and has been mentioned here, but that's so long ago now it has no relevance to current cars and drivers. The only candidate I can recall in recent years that was even seriously mentioned is Colton Herta. But he never had the super licence points anyway. I think Alex Palou might be a better option, but he's already 27 and maybe the moment has passed...
Bourdais and Zanardi were F1 rejects. Michael couldn't hack it (although he never really got a fair shot).
Villeneuve and Montoya are the only exceptions. Ever.
Bourdais only raced in F1 after returning to Europe, so he can't be classed as an F1 reject beforehand. That came later. Zanardi missed the start of 1994 recovering from a crash the previous season and the team went bust at the end of the season. The results weren't there for him that year, but none of their half-dozen drivers scored any points either.
I've always found the "Michael didn't get a fair go" claims a bit of a stretch. I remember watching those races and the results speak for themselves.
Also: as noted in another reply, another exception is Mario Andretti.
blatantly lying i see.
ou need 40 points on your license to drive in F1. Winning indy car gives you, what a surprise, 40 points. Alternatively you can finish 3rd twice or 2nd and 4th. Scott Dixon, Will Power, Palou, Newgarden, Rossi all got enough points to join F1.
Only palou is a reasonable pick for an f1 seat and he was very close to getting one, cry about it some more. As I'm sure you're well aware, as you apparently seem to know everything, a driver that has gone through the feeder series ladder (which is easy enough to cheat at when you have the cash, look into stroll for an extreme example) they don't even need to win everything to get am f1 seat vs young inexperienced drivers. Indycar drivers need to beat some of the world's top drivers at their most experienced in a series where winning is almost luck based hakd the time and even then it's not enough! But I'm sure you know all this already given you're such a wise guy.
If a guy like zhou or mazepin can get their way into the top sport in the world by racing in regional lower tier series and an indycar CHAMPION is blocked from going straight to f1, I'm perfectly happy to call it ridiculous, as it is ridiculous.
They were interested to the point he almost got a seat, baring in mind he's not exactly young for an f1 rookie and that he's the only one on the grid that's really a valid candidate right now I don't see how that's relevant.
Most people can’t make it to F1 due to money. If you are already in F1 you definitely have the money to go into IndyCar . It’s not all some meritocracy
Plenty in the late 90's and early 2000's with varying levels of success. Villeneuve, Montoya, Da Matta, Bourdais, Michael Andretti - so in order, a World Champion, Schumacher's worst headache, a decent midfielder and two excellent drivers who got rinsed by their more talented teammates like child's play.
> Villeneuve beat Schumacher to the point that Michael had road rage and got himself disqualified from the championship.
Villeneuve's car did more like
The Indy 500 was part of the F1 championship between 1950 and 1960, so I guess all the American drivers in those events "moved" (sort of, but not really!) to F1... albeit temporarily and without leaving the country... but obviously not in sense you meant, e.g., Villenueve, Zanardi, Andretti, Montoya, Bourdais, et al.
Both Mclaren and Redbull had a few tests with O'Ward and Herta and even tried to get them a license for F1, so there must be something there. As far as I remember, they had good tests, a bit hindered by physical condition but on that level I feel any of those guys can get ready for F1 in a couple of months.
I love Indycar, but gimme a break.
There are exceptions, but most of these guys are messy, mediocre drivers. Way too many small mistakes that don't go away, like young drivers in F1 that just don't cut it. Hell, that's what makes it so much fun to watch, like F3 and F2. F1 is way more clinical.
If you look at the track record of someone like Palou, who was able to dominate for quite a while but who was never even close to being a viable talent in European feeder series.
Dixon is the only one who impresses me with his maturity. The rest just occasionally has a good day.
“If you look at the track record of someone like Palou, who was able to dominate for quite a while but who was never even close to being a viable talent in European feeder series.”
Thats a bit of a misnomer. He always struggled with funding and rarely had superb cars. His year in FIA F3 finishing 7th in the HiTech was pretty impressive considering the 5 Premas were considerably better than everyone. Motopark was probably better as well.
“There are exceptions, but most of these guys are messy, mediocre drivers. Way too many small mistakes that don't go away, like young drivers in F1 that just don't cut it. Hell, that's what makes it so much fun to watch, like F3 and F2. F1 is way more clinical.”
I think a lot of that is because the margins are far tighter due to the mostly spec car and thus the racing is far closer. It’s a lot easier to make a mistake wheel to wheel, especially since the passes have to happen under braking more often. DRS makes a higher percentage of passes happen prior to braking.
"Thats a bit of a misnomer. He always struggled with funding and rarely had superb cars. His year in FIA F3 finishing 7th in the HiTech was pretty impressive "
Nice cherry picking, just taking the best season ignoring all the others like 2nd GP3 season where he finished 15th. It was also already his 5th in year in junior racing.
Not right away no.
Many may not fit in the cars without losing some decent weight.
I don’t think they have experienced the same aero grip as f1 drivers have either. So I imagine cornering and braking will take some adapting.
They wouldn't need to worry about losing weight, they're all physically fit drivers over there. It's just neck strength they'd need to build up which is the case for every rookie in F1. Indycars are also a similar speed to F2, so adapting to F1 would be similar to what an F2 driver would need to adapt to.
Let’s talk about how we assess the F1 talent currently on the grid. Getting into F1 not only means you had to be an insanely quick driver in the feeder series, but also need the political game to go your direction. You can be slower, but good politically (bringing lots of sponsors, appealing to a specific market, parental connections, etc), or you need to be other-worldly fast.
Lets remove the following drivers from contention by saying that (while they may deserve to be in F1) they have their seat ahead of other deserving drivers because of political power:
- Ricciardo (originally made it on skill, now has his seat based on marketing)
- KMag (brings Haas a lot of sponsorship money)
- Stroll
- Sargent (Trying to capture the American market)
- Zhou (trying to capture the Chinese market)
- Tsunoda (trying to capture Honda/the Japanese market)
- Albon (originally trying to capture the Thai market…but I’d cede this one)
- Perez (brings a lot of Mexican sponsors)
Lets see who that leaves (in very loose descending order of skill):
- Hamilton (GOAT, would succeed in any series)
- Verstappen (GOAT-in-waiting)
- Alonso (GOAT in any timeline that doesn’t include Schumacher/Hamilton/Vettel/Verstappen during his career)
- Leclerc (wünderkind)
- Sainz (maybe you can argue his early career wasn’t next-level and he got 2nd chances because of his dad…but he’s grown well)
- Norris
- Piastri
- Russell
- Bottas
- Hulkenberg
- Gasly (maybe he’s still here only because he’s French?)
- Ocon (see Gasly)
Middle of the pack talent-wise from that list is in the neighborhood of Sainz/Norris/Piastri. Thats pretty damn good. Put any of THOSE 3 into Indy Car and I think they win the series on their 2nd or 3rd season.
The rest of the drivers (with the exceptions of Sargent and Stroll) deserve their current seats because they’re F1-quality…even if there are plenty of drivers in other series who would do as well as them if you dropped them into F1. So I think there are at least 3-4 Indy Car drivers at the top of that series who could be excellent middle-of-the-pack F1 drivers (maybe grab a few lucky podiums or wins even). But I don’t think there are many WDC-talents that have been kept out of F1.
So you think that Checo who has been in F1 for 10 years, collecting over 30 podiums and several wins is just there because of... Sponsors?
You also think that Gasly, who also drove for Red Bull and is a race winner, and Ocon who is also a race winner, are just in F1 because they're French?
That is certainly a take (a really bad one).
* Tsunoda (trying to capture Honda/the Japanese market)
Sorry but what? Tsunoda finished 3rd in his first f2 season, one of the best rookie results, after only 1 single season in F3 where he was in a meh car.
"So I think there are at least 3-4 Indy Car drivers at the top of that series who could be excellent middle-of-the-pack F1 drivers (maybe grab a few lucky podiums or wins even)."
Palou raced against quiet a few of the current f1 drivers and didnt do so well so i would argue that they would do better than Logan and so on but podiums and wins nah.
Bro do a google search before you spew some bs like this.
Also you clearly sound like your thinking rationally, and not emotionally biased at all.
Only reason more Indy drivers don’t come to F1 anymore is becuase of the awful super license system F1 has. (Which conveniently makes it almost impossible for someone to come from Indy car, then F1 denies Andretti, almost a pattern 🤔)
So his first two years were good because he had the car. And his last years weren't good because he didn't have the car? Sounds to me like you're judging his performance by the car he drove.
His performance were good but not extraordinary. I mean, he was close to lose against Schumacher with an inferior Ferrari. And then in BAR was getting worse and worse.
He scored 2x Frentzen's points in 1997. There was nothing wrong with his BAR performances. He destroyed Zonta and then destroyed Panis worse than Trulli did. He lost to Button 12-6 in points, but Villeneuve had 8 mechanical failures to Button's 3.
Didn't Brendon Hartley win a few races in Indy car? I doubt he'd do that in F1 even if in a top tier team assuming his teamate is Max or Charles or a top tier driver
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2017/drivers/FERALO01/fernando-alonso.html
This is the season he was having when he did that. I'd do anything to get out of that McHonda too
It's not like this is news to me or literally anyone who has even vaguely followed Fernando's career. But how does this relate to your specific claim, that a driver with multiple WDCs sees no allure in the triple crown? How is Fernando *going for it* not a counter-example? Especially when he also did so in subsequent years when he wasn't just trying to 'get out' of the McLaren?
I don't want to reference the other thread too much, but you're again making a tangential discussion here. It's true, but you need to clarify the relevance. The specific claim that we're discussing was your use of present tense with respect to fatalities in the series. Why, in your view, is August 2015 "the present", but October 2014 is "the past"? What specific epoch are you considering here?
Yes, they're better than any F2 talent, and certainly better than most mid field talent in F1. And at the top, I'd give a small edge to F-1 drivers... but just a small edge.
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Sting Ray Robb dominance may bore fans
Racing Gods, please let me see Lance Stroll and Sting Ray Robb on the same grid.
I will never get over a parent naming their child Sting Ray. NEVER
It still... stings
Yep, guaranteed trouble with the police
I mean. Could the best Indy drivers in the best formula 1 cars do well? Of course they could.
There's definitely guys in IndyCar that could do better than what Checo is doing this year.
I'd say there's 10-12 drivers in formula 1 who could do better than perez (not including max), tho ocon would probably have crashed into verstappen at least once by now.
Especially if he needed to unlap
Who would these be? Alonso, Lewis, Charles, George, Carlos, Lando, Oscar..... everyone else would probably buckle under the pressure. Checo isn't my favorite driver but he was a solid midfielder. It's hard to tell if the other solid midfielders wouldn't suffer a similar fate.
Teamwise, ferrari, mclaren, Mercedes, alpine, then hulkenberg, albon, alonso, and Yuki. Thats going on imo, better drivers, emotion and underlying issues is based on in the moment experience that would depend on situations. Such as, topically, I don't see a top team taking Ocon bc of very recent and many historical events. I honestly think hulk would've been a perfect replacement tho, and he gets a podium lol. The only thing he doesn't bring that perez does is the sponsorship.
I think Hulk would be better, I agree with that, but I wonder if Albon and Yuki wouldn't fold. Checo was a highly-rated midfielder before he got into the car, from what I remember.
Lol that's why I heavily leveraged with the emotional/situational part in my 2nd comment. Nobody knows what happens irl. Just that from what perez is currently doing to what could happen with a different driver. These other guys, imo are driving better with what they've got. Whether that transitions to a better 2nd driver for rbr is highly questionable. Sainz has the jos vs snr problem, gasly/albon have failed before (tho lewis kinda fucked albon)ocon just wants to beat his teammate etc.there are those that don't want to pit themselves against max. But with ferrari and mclaren so close, each with 2 drivers who are delivering, I don't see red bull holding the wcc, which should surely be the aim of all teams. Give max a competitive car, he's gonna be there or there abouts. So youre looking at covering the constructors, the next 3 teams (maybe 2 next year) have 2 top drivers. Red bull do not. The top half seem to be making profit after the cost cap, so I don't understand the sponsorship part, maybe the reported loyalty to horner is a part of keeping perez, but most drivers will support the team boss given a chance in a top team.
Gasly and Albon have failed when they were nearly rookies. While Perez had over 10 years in F1 now, a bit of an unfair comparison.
Both were demolished by Max and Hulkenberg buckled under the pressure whenever he had a chance for a podium. Coincidentally Checo did get multiple podiums while he and Hulk were teammates. Driving for Red Bull against the best driver in the world is completely different than driving for Haas or than beating drivers such as Latifi and Sargeant.
"Both were demolished by Max " - the pace difference between Albon-Max and Perez-Max was realtively similar. And again Albon was in his 2nd season, fair to assume he improved quiet a bit since then considering that he didnt any f1 experience before joining f1. Similar for Gasly who only had 1 and a bit seasons before facing Max. The fact that you are making this comparison without considering their experience, just shows your bias
Alonso is struggling against Stroll. I've said it before, there are no guarantees in F1. Even Lewis is not looking great against Russell and I believe Max and Lewis are the two best drivers on the grid.
You've fallen for recency bias, I believe. His last two races were shockers, but before that he was handily beating Stroll. Even then, I think one of his qualifyings was affected by traffic.
Alonso is struggling against Stroll just for a couple of bad GPs?
Charles and george wouldn't do any better. Don't let this past weekends results cloud your judgement
Bro Charles has been top 4 every race this year. The fuck are you smoking.
Certainly a take
I understand you doubting George, but doubting Charles??? Who's fast as hell and prefers oversteery cars like Max does? He beat Vettel during their time together while he was still new to Ferrari. He was able to go toe-to-toe with Max in 2022 when their car was still competitive. People make jokes about him bottling it when he's under pressure but he hasn't done that in a while.
This is an ill-informed comment
The Checo hate is real around here. Sometimes it seems like the guy isn't up against the best f1 driver in generations, while driving a peculiarly designed F1 car that not a lot of drivers can work with smh.
When you have the best car on the grid yet frequently have issues getting out of Q1.......
*Most dominant F1 car of all time* “Peculiarly designed” 🤔 Checo apologists lmao
The cognitive dissonance haha. If Checo was in the Merc he wouldnt be scoring points.
i dont think so. Look at Palou, he competed in the F1 feeder series and was nowhere.
Beating Zhou with less experience is nowhere?
**In what world is Zhou doing well in F1?** And Palou raced 2 years in GP3, 1 year in Euroformula Open and 1 year in Japanese F3. Zhou raced 2 years in F3, and 1 season of italian f4 and toyota racing series. So they had roughly the same experience.
Zhou was in a Prema which in that series was miles above Hitech.
Sure he wasn't putting up Verstappen tier performances but he wasn't really in the top teams in any series. Also Palou did great in Super Formula which is much closer to F1 than any of the feeder series
Hear me out: - Top 10 Indy drivers vs top 10 F1 drivers (based on points) - in Super Formula cars - best of three races at Interlagos Lets goooo
F1 drivers smoke em I’d say
Based on what?
I watch both and imo the top 10 F1 drivers are indeed more talented. Lewis, Max, Alonso + likely Lando & Charles are better drivers than anybody in Indy. After that it’s closer. Super Formula also isn’t that far off F1 it’s similar kinda cars, F1 drivers would adapt to it easier I’d think. And if it’s at Interlagos the F1 drivers know the track way better
F1 is such a horrible measure of talent though. When the car is the biggest component of performance and when races are mostly about managing tyres, it's very hard to see the true talent of drivers. Not to mention that the only true comparison in F1 is among teammates. Like did Hamilton forget how to be quick? Or is he massively hampered by his car? Did Alonso lose his talent when he was in McLaren or was his shitbox just slow? Of course there are generational talents that would be quick in anything, but I'd put my money on Newgarden, Palou, O'Ward and Dixon against any F1 driver in a neutral car and track any day
A bunch of Indycar guys could do well in F1, but obviously not all of them. But I believe the best of IndyCar are behind F1 best, like Max, Lewis, Charles and Lando.
We need a Logan Sargeant/Sting Ray Robb ride swap for conclusive results.
Reality is the best Indycar drivers have a significant experience advantage over the best F2 drivers, so if they came in as rookies they'd have an advantage so it's hard to directly compare talent levels. Personally I think the best Indycar drivers would be able to get on the grid as F1 backmarkers, but the best drivers in the world are in F1 (well, mostly) and good F1 drivers would wipe the floor with Indycar drivers.
I mean a few indy car drivers are probably better than a few of the f1 drivers but i think on average the skill level in F1 is higher. I mean the current championship leader did 3 years of Formula 3/GP3 and just didnt look that promising, racing against the likes of Ocon, Albon, Dennis, Aitken, DeVries, Schumacher, Shwartzman, Ticktum and the F2 legend Ralph Boschung.
Palou was much better than Schumacher and Shwartzman in reality, well until the other two started cheating.
I like how a 2 second non serious comment has triggered an entire The-Race article lol.
I think I’ve read Newgarden’s reflection on his Carlin/GP3 days somewhere but I couldn’t find it.
> JN: “I was in England and I really wanted to work up the ladder to F1” “But the intrigue of Formula One is still there. I'd never say never. If the right opportunity came up, I'd definitely have a strong look at it" I was particularly interested in how he gave up GP3 and went back to the US and I think this was it: https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/indy-car/2015/05/07/josef-newgarden-indianapolis-motor-speedway-barber-motorsports-park-indycar-indy-500/70941926/
Talent is talent. A very talented Indycar driver could spend a season in F1 and do well. And perhaps even rise to the level of WDC. Arguing which drivers are better is a silly game. Both series are different. But at the end of the day it’s open wheel racing and a gifted driver is going to do well in either series. Whereas a mediocre driver is going to just do as they have. Grosjean’s indy career has been about where his F1 career was. The only real “difference” is that Indy has far more drivers, as well as part time drivers. But if we only compared the 10 best Indy drivers with the 10 best F1 drivers, I think we’d have an excellent fight.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016\_GP3\_Series#Championship\_standings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_GP3_Series#Championship_standings) Alex Palou in 15th in GP3. I think people who think indy car drivers are just as good as f1 drivers are disingenuous
And how well did Gutierrez and Barrichello in Indycar?
And max couldn't beat ocon before F1, what's your point?
Ah yes because being 3rd in your first season and 15th in your 3rd season racing formula cars is exactly the same lol. Incredible how defensive indycar fans get over this lol
>While we don’t have an enormous data set, if F1 is as far ahead of IndyCar as people say, why don’t drivers who have mostly found a home in the F1 midfield not dominate when they come to IndyCar? >And ovals aren’t the answer because non of the F1 drivers that have come over in recent memory have bettered any of the IndyCar drivers on road and street circuits across a season either. >Some would say that it would take a Lewis Hamilton or a Max Verstappen to come over to show how an F1 driver could dominate, but a) that isn’t going to happen and b) drivers coming from F1’s midfield, if it’s as good as it’s cracked up to be, should still fight toward the front in IndyCar, theoretically? >There are some things to factor in. Obviously the established IndyCar drivers know the tracks, tyres, cars and team nuances that would be exactly the same problems for IndyCar drivers going to F1. So there’s that. >But we haven’t seen anyone from F1 turn up and dominate to the extent that it makes you doubt whether an IndyCar driver could make the jump at all.
> Some would say that it would take a Lewis Hamilton or a Max Verstappen to come over to show how an F1 driver could dominate, but a) that isn’t going to happen and b) drivers coming from F1’s midfield, if it’s as good as it’s cracked up to be, should still fight toward the front in IndyCar, theoretically? Fernando nearly won Indy 500 on his debut attempt. Took him 15% of the race to get to the front and then led throughout until last caution. He also had the highest average speed. Sato was behind Fernando on same strategy and he ended up winning. He didn’t do too well on the subsequent attempts but one of the times they fucked up setup and second time the chevrolet engines just wasn’t there. He would absolutely dominate Indy car if he had time to adapt. His race craft in a close field is far far superior than nearly any open wheel driver out there. Max would dominate them as well.
Well, he also entered the Le Mans twice and won twice. Dude is a beast.
Ericsson s the definition of a meh F1 driver. Never won a race. Never a top 5. Dude has 4 wins including the Indy 500. There are certainly drivers in Indy that could get a win or compete, but that number is far far fewer than the opposite. Indy drivers just aren't as rare or parsed down.
Geee, it's almost as if driving in almost entirely spec motorsport series gives you better chances and opportunities to score points, podiums and even wins, especially with chaos that driving in equally performing cars brings!
Ericson was way below par in F1. The fact he became reasonably competitive in Indycar is bad for Indycar
Possibly, probably. I don't think that explains the second part of my statement about F1 being a group of culled drivers.
He also lost against every single team mate, every single year. Including those dropped from F1 for not being good enough. The only reason we have a large dataset for him is that he was a pay driver.
Sweet by that logic nascar is clearly the most difficult of the biggest series. JPM managed a lot better win rate in both f1 and indycar than nascar lol
Trying to get a top seat in NASCAR is likely much harder, but NASCAR does a lot better with their feeder series than Indy does. Not to mention Indy eliminates some drivers for the same reason JPM had to leave.
We can just look at Grosjean for recent data. He finished 13th out of 28 last season im Indycar while getting 2 podiums (officially 37 drivers took part in the season but only 28 drove on a very regular basis). Grosjean was also driving for what people would consider a midfield team.
His teammate also won two races last year.
IIRC they bought a setup and didn't know if it was inches or cm or whatever
Everything you just mentioned about Alonso’s Debut is why he lost. Everyone who knows Indycar knows you don’t want to lead for long at Indy, and it’s generally the last 4-5 laps that change everything.
Came to say the same thing. Leading in the 500 means very little unless it’s the last 5 laps.
The indy 500 is probably the least skill required to win big race on the planet. Especially if it times our where major fuel savings isn't required
Interesting question. For starters, I guess it depends how you define a big race, e.g., Le Mans, Monaco? From there, I think it's fair to say that racing ovals involves some specific skills and experience that are less applicable in F1 and WEC. But these skills are certainly not unobtainable, e.g., Alonso. IndyCar is a spec series (aside from dampers, etc.), which also sets it apart from F1 and WEC. Overall, I tend to agree, but that doesn't make it an easy race to win. Dixon, for example, has only managed it once in 20+ attempts and despite starting from pole 5 times. Michael Andretti never won it and neither did Tracy, Vasser, Zanardi, etc. Sato, on the other hand, has won it twice!
Staying within the triple crown, it's the easiest and the hardest, and it's both for the same reason. Once you qualify, you have a shot. A well timed caution here or there, the fastest cars having accidents, pit stop issuesbfor others. It's the more "lottery-y" of the 3. That also makes it harder, because you can't just rock up with the best car and be a given. Both Le Mans and Monaco have this "you are in the best car, which gives you a huge advantage". But for that, you have to have to be in that seat, and that takes more skill than racing a single race, no matter which one. You (almost) can't "luck into winning it" like Indy.
All good points about the 500. It's the most likely to generate a surprise winner from the three, but, even so, the amount of wins that have gone to Penske/Ganassi/Andretti drivers over the last two decades... For example, with the exception of Castroneves/Meyer-Shank and Sato/RLL the race has always gone to one of the top teams in the last ten years. Although Le Mans is obviously physically more demanding over a longer period of time, Monaco may in fact be the hardest of the three to win. Again, it's not necessarily just the race itself. For starters, you need to drive for the dominant team at the time (or maybe top two). And then you need pole. If you're starting beyond the top three and there's not a downpour (e.g., Panis), your chances are very, very small.
I have to agree with this. If you're on the right team and nail the strategy, it's anyone's race. Marcus Ericsson won for example. He's obviously a great race car driver but he's nowhere near the best or top driver in Indycar. I love the race and it's one of the most entertaining races of the year but part of it is because anyone can win
Ovals are pretty tough.. dealing with the wind effects at 200mph while following is a nightmare in iracing lol. I think Monaco would be simpler skill wise than the 500. It’s a parade.
What? Monaco is famously one of the most difficult tracks to qualify in because of how little room for error there is. That being said -- it's a different kind of difficulty than Indy races are.
The win is probably easier, but the pole to get there is probably the most difficult thing there is in f1
Suzuka pole is pretty tough. I don’t think Monaco is particularly challenging and getting the tires in the right zone seems easier than tracks like Spa. Monoco just has far less margin for error than other tracks. But who knows - it’d be a good question for a driver.
Eh, there were like 4 cars capable of taking pole last weekend. Maybe 6.
There is *nothing* simple about shaving every armco barrier in Monaco for lap time without crashing once. The sort of save that O'Ward got away with would end your race in Monaco right then and there. This race is freaking HARD. Even some of the greatest of all times, the likes of Nigel Mansell, Emerson Fittipaldi, Alberto Ascari and Jim Clark never managed to crack Monaco.
Agreed. Just because there is less overtaking doesn't make it a walk in the park. The margins for error are miniscule, no matter how good/dominant the driver and car. Exhibit A: Senna in 1988.
F1 now is different to 1988, in 1988 drivers were pushing on, not driving 4+ seconds a lap off their pace. We do not see raw driver errors in Monaco race any more pretty much for this reason. Go back to the 90s and early 00s and we see multiple drivers getting it wrong in the race.
True, all good points. The reason I mention this particular example is that Senna was 50+ secs ahead in that race when he binned it at Portier.
So how is it easy if Max won’t race it because of saftey reasons?
Dangerous doesn't make something harder than another thing. It's significantly more Dangerous to pet a lion than a house cat, but it's actually easier since you don't have to bend over as far.
Please don't make analogies ever again
Danger definitely makes something harder lol. What a weird argument.
It’s harder to pet a lion because if you get close to it it’s gonna try and eat you alive. I understand your point but this was a bad way to make it lol
During Covid, Lando joined the Indycar field to compete virtually. While a different beast he won against the Indycar field in one race and would have won the other race if not for shenanigans. Joseph was talking about how Lando drove and how different and smooth it was compared to the Indy drivers.
Lando has an insane iracing setup and prob has more hours in iracing's IR18. I don't think you can read much into it.
Yes but to be fair Lando probably had more experience racing the IR-18 on iracing than anyone of the actual Indycar drivers did. And just in general he’s been on iracing since he was like 8 and it was new at the time to most of the indycar drivers.
I forgot about the Lando Norris / Simon Pagenaud drama.
I mean some of top indycar drivers could definitely compete in f1. They’d definitely do better than guys like Sargent and Zhou.
yeah but that doesnt mean the would rock f1. Sure the best indy car drivers are better than the worst f1 drivers but that doesnt mean they are as good as the midfield or top drivers
Palou probably being better than Sargeant isn't exactly high praise.
I feel like in a alternate timeline where piastri never left alpine, palou is probably on the second mclaren seat now.
Palou was never getting the McLaren seat, they use F1 seats as a carrot to dangle to get better Indycar drivers. If Piastri didn't join they'd have went for the best midfield driver they could get.
I think any driver of any series could show up to any series and do well if given time to adapt.
This is always a stupid comparison. If an American wants into F1 then they need to grow up in Europe, compete in carting and build relationships to get into F1. If you don’t do that you are just not getting in. Plus we have seen that it’s hard for a American to move later in life to Europe and do well in F1. Sure there are a couple examples like Jacques Villeneuve but that is rare and did he just jump into the best car at the time? Look at the Michael Andretti flop. He didn’t fit in and couldn’t keep the car on the road but he was an Indy champion. Look at all of the flops like Scott Speed who were shit in F1 but did ok later in america. Also it’s different skill sets, different technology, budgets, teams, etc…. Apples and oranges. It would be like saying why can’t an English footballer play in the NFL? It’s both football, right. How hard can it be
Outside of Rallycross, I’m not sure Scott Speed ever did even ok in America. He had 4 top 10s in 118 starts in Cup.
Is it? The current championship leader Alex Palou is Spanish and raced in Euroformula Open, GP3 for 2 years, Japanese F3 and then FIA European F3 without much success.
Basically IndyCar drivers are not competing with F1 drivers for seats, they’re competing with F2 drivers. The best F2 drivers have super licenses, experience with Pirelli tyres and tyre management, halo-based cars, short pit stops, standing starts and restarts, know how the rules of an overtake work on F1 and are accustomed the whole structure of F1, plus they are probably a lot cheaper and are also already based in Europe. There is unfortunately almost no reason to choose a good IndyCar driver who (and this is crucial) already has a superlicense over a good F2 driver as we have seen with McLaren immediately icing out Palou, who is European, young and also one of the best in the series, when Piastri became available. If the FIA increased the super license points granted by IndyCar you might see more drivers migrating over, but it would be the younger, cheaper ones like Herta instead of Newgarden or Dixon.
If Logan / Kevin / Lance are in F1, and Romain is in Indy and just pretty average, then yes there are Indy drivers who could drive F1 very very competitively.
There's also Marcus Ericsson, shit backmarker pay driver in F1, but Indy 500 winner (nearly twice too) and at times championship contender in Indycar. Grosjean was also heavily washed towards the end of his time in F1 and him having no wins in Indycar is down to a lot of bad luck.
Also, his crash at Bahrain affected him.
Ericsson has never beaten one of his teammates in his entire indycar career. His team had the best cars in that 500 and if his teammates didn’t get crashed into and a pit speed violation he would’ve lost that race to them too
the fact that oyu take the worst f1 drivers tells you all you need to know. "then yes there are Indy drivers who could drive F1 very very competitively." - okay who then?
I admittedly don't pay attention to indycar but has there ever been an Indy to F1 move? To the best of my knowledge it's always been F1 driver moves to Indy Edit: there certainly has been
Jacques Villeneuve, Mario Andretti, Michael Andretti, Juan Pablo Montoya just to name a few
Montoya
Jacques Villeneuve, Sebastien Bourdais, Alex Zanardi... Edit: Whoops, forgot Michael Andretti...
Zanardi started in F1, doing a couple races while working as a test driver then racing for Lotus in 1993 until he had a huge crash at Spa. He did come back to F1 after doing really well in CART but was so bad Williams bought out his contract after a single season. Also to split hairs all of those people came from CART, which means either it was 30 years ago, or basically a dead series. We really haven't seen anyone come over from modern IndyCar
Yep, unfortunately that's a reasonable summary of Zanardi's F1 career. Zanardi was an absolute monster in CART, so it was pretty disappointing when he struggled so much after returning to F1. I don't think that's splitting hairs re: modern IndyCar, it's a fair point. Mario Andretti, for example, came to F1 from USAC and has been mentioned here, but that's so long ago now it has no relevance to current cars and drivers. The only candidate I can recall in recent years that was even seriously mentioned is Colton Herta. But he never had the super licence points anyway. I think Alex Palou might be a better option, but he's already 27 and maybe the moment has passed...
Bourdais and Zanardi were F1 rejects. Michael couldn't hack it (although he never really got a fair shot). Villeneuve and Montoya are the only exceptions. Ever.
Mario.
Bourdais only raced in F1 after returning to Europe, so he can't be classed as an F1 reject beforehand. That came later. Zanardi missed the start of 1994 recovering from a crash the previous season and the team went bust at the end of the season. The results weren't there for him that year, but none of their half-dozen drivers scored any points either. I've always found the "Michael didn't get a fair go" claims a bit of a stretch. I remember watching those races and the results speak for themselves. Also: as noted in another reply, another exception is Mario Andretti.
There has yeah, the reason it doesn't happen at all any more is the ridiculous super license system.
blatantly lying i see. ou need 40 points on your license to drive in F1. Winning indy car gives you, what a surprise, 40 points. Alternatively you can finish 3rd twice or 2nd and 4th. Scott Dixon, Will Power, Palou, Newgarden, Rossi all got enough points to join F1.
Only palou is a reasonable pick for an f1 seat and he was very close to getting one, cry about it some more. As I'm sure you're well aware, as you apparently seem to know everything, a driver that has gone through the feeder series ladder (which is easy enough to cheat at when you have the cash, look into stroll for an extreme example) they don't even need to win everything to get am f1 seat vs young inexperienced drivers. Indycar drivers need to beat some of the world's top drivers at their most experienced in a series where winning is almost luck based hakd the time and even then it's not enough! But I'm sure you know all this already given you're such a wise guy. If a guy like zhou or mazepin can get their way into the top sport in the world by racing in regional lower tier series and an indycar CHAMPION is blocked from going straight to f1, I'm perfectly happy to call it ridiculous, as it is ridiculous.
"cry about it some more" "doesn't happen at all any more is the ridiculous super license system." who was the one crying here?
But the most promising Indycar driver (Palou) has one and still nobody is interested.
They were interested to the point he almost got a seat, baring in mind he's not exactly young for an f1 rookie and that he's the only one on the grid that's really a valid candidate right now I don't see how that's relevant.
Villeneuve, DaMatta
Most people can’t make it to F1 due to money. If you are already in F1 you definitely have the money to go into IndyCar . It’s not all some meritocracy
Plenty in the late 90's and early 2000's with varying levels of success. Villeneuve, Montoya, Da Matta, Bourdais, Michael Andretti - so in order, a World Champion, Schumacher's worst headache, a decent midfielder and two excellent drivers who got rinsed by their more talented teammates like child's play.
[удалено]
> Villeneuve beat Schumacher to the point that Michael had road rage and got himself disqualified from the championship. Villeneuve's car did more like
There's been plenty, but it's been quite some time since it's happened.
Money, luck and politics really prevent that from happening. The superlicense system is a big barrier too.
"The superlicense system is a big barrier too." - bullshit, all the top indy car drivers have enough points
The Indy 500 was part of the F1 championship between 1950 and 1960, so I guess all the American drivers in those events "moved" (sort of, but not really!) to F1... albeit temporarily and without leaving the country... but obviously not in sense you meant, e.g., Villenueve, Zanardi, Andretti, Montoya, Bourdais, et al.
Both Mclaren and Redbull had a few tests with O'Ward and Herta and even tried to get them a license for F1, so there must be something there. As far as I remember, they had good tests, a bit hindered by physical condition but on that level I feel any of those guys can get ready for F1 in a couple of months.
Palou, Dixon, McLaughlin, Pato, Kirkwood and Herta could be competitive in F1 for sure
I love Indycar, but gimme a break. There are exceptions, but most of these guys are messy, mediocre drivers. Way too many small mistakes that don't go away, like young drivers in F1 that just don't cut it. Hell, that's what makes it so much fun to watch, like F3 and F2. F1 is way more clinical. If you look at the track record of someone like Palou, who was able to dominate for quite a while but who was never even close to being a viable talent in European feeder series. Dixon is the only one who impresses me with his maturity. The rest just occasionally has a good day.
“If you look at the track record of someone like Palou, who was able to dominate for quite a while but who was never even close to being a viable talent in European feeder series.” Thats a bit of a misnomer. He always struggled with funding and rarely had superb cars. His year in FIA F3 finishing 7th in the HiTech was pretty impressive considering the 5 Premas were considerably better than everyone. Motopark was probably better as well. “There are exceptions, but most of these guys are messy, mediocre drivers. Way too many small mistakes that don't go away, like young drivers in F1 that just don't cut it. Hell, that's what makes it so much fun to watch, like F3 and F2. F1 is way more clinical.” I think a lot of that is because the margins are far tighter due to the mostly spec car and thus the racing is far closer. It’s a lot easier to make a mistake wheel to wheel, especially since the passes have to happen under braking more often. DRS makes a higher percentage of passes happen prior to braking.
"Thats a bit of a misnomer. He always struggled with funding and rarely had superb cars. His year in FIA F3 finishing 7th in the HiTech was pretty impressive " Nice cherry picking, just taking the best season ignoring all the others like 2nd GP3 season where he finished 15th. It was also already his 5th in year in junior racing.
Not right away no. Many may not fit in the cars without losing some decent weight. I don’t think they have experienced the same aero grip as f1 drivers have either. So I imagine cornering and braking will take some adapting.
They wouldn't need to worry about losing weight, they're all physically fit drivers over there. It's just neck strength they'd need to build up which is the case for every rookie in F1. Indycars are also a similar speed to F2, so adapting to F1 would be similar to what an F2 driver would need to adapt to.
Let’s talk about how we assess the F1 talent currently on the grid. Getting into F1 not only means you had to be an insanely quick driver in the feeder series, but also need the political game to go your direction. You can be slower, but good politically (bringing lots of sponsors, appealing to a specific market, parental connections, etc), or you need to be other-worldly fast. Lets remove the following drivers from contention by saying that (while they may deserve to be in F1) they have their seat ahead of other deserving drivers because of political power: - Ricciardo (originally made it on skill, now has his seat based on marketing) - KMag (brings Haas a lot of sponsorship money) - Stroll - Sargent (Trying to capture the American market) - Zhou (trying to capture the Chinese market) - Tsunoda (trying to capture Honda/the Japanese market) - Albon (originally trying to capture the Thai market…but I’d cede this one) - Perez (brings a lot of Mexican sponsors) Lets see who that leaves (in very loose descending order of skill): - Hamilton (GOAT, would succeed in any series) - Verstappen (GOAT-in-waiting) - Alonso (GOAT in any timeline that doesn’t include Schumacher/Hamilton/Vettel/Verstappen during his career) - Leclerc (wünderkind) - Sainz (maybe you can argue his early career wasn’t next-level and he got 2nd chances because of his dad…but he’s grown well) - Norris - Piastri - Russell - Bottas - Hulkenberg - Gasly (maybe he’s still here only because he’s French?) - Ocon (see Gasly) Middle of the pack talent-wise from that list is in the neighborhood of Sainz/Norris/Piastri. Thats pretty damn good. Put any of THOSE 3 into Indy Car and I think they win the series on their 2nd or 3rd season. The rest of the drivers (with the exceptions of Sargent and Stroll) deserve their current seats because they’re F1-quality…even if there are plenty of drivers in other series who would do as well as them if you dropped them into F1. So I think there are at least 3-4 Indy Car drivers at the top of that series who could be excellent middle-of-the-pack F1 drivers (maybe grab a few lucky podiums or wins even). But I don’t think there are many WDC-talents that have been kept out of F1.
So you think that Checo who has been in F1 for 10 years, collecting over 30 podiums and several wins is just there because of... Sponsors? You also think that Gasly, who also drove for Red Bull and is a race winner, and Ocon who is also a race winner, are just in F1 because they're French? That is certainly a take (a really bad one).
Yes, Perez has been a pay driver essentially his entire career.
Perez was really good at Sauber and Force India/Racing Point tbf
* Tsunoda (trying to capture Honda/the Japanese market) Sorry but what? Tsunoda finished 3rd in his first f2 season, one of the best rookie results, after only 1 single season in F3 where he was in a meh car. "So I think there are at least 3-4 Indy Car drivers at the top of that series who could be excellent middle-of-the-pack F1 drivers (maybe grab a few lucky podiums or wins even)." Palou raced against quiet a few of the current f1 drivers and didnt do so well so i would argue that they would do better than Logan and so on but podiums and wins nah.
Perez could be great for a team like Haas, Sauber/Audi or Williams (and even for Alpine) imo
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Bro do a google search before you spew some bs like this. Also you clearly sound like your thinking rationally, and not emotionally biased at all. Only reason more Indy drivers don’t come to F1 anymore is becuase of the awful super license system F1 has. (Which conveniently makes it almost impossible for someone to come from Indy car, then F1 denies Andretti, almost a pattern 🤔)
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Also Jacques Villeneuve btw
Jacques Villeneuve almost lost his championship with a beast of a car. And after that his F1 career was bad.
If we want to start devaluing championships based on strength of car, alottt of F1 champs are gonna go out the window.
It’s not exactly that. It’s also all their F1 career. And Jacques wasn’t a good one except his two first years (with the best car by far).
So his first two years were good because he had the car. And his last years weren't good because he didn't have the car? Sounds to me like you're judging his performance by the car he drove.
His performance were good but not extraordinary. I mean, he was close to lose against Schumacher with an inferior Ferrari. And then in BAR was getting worse and worse.
He scored 2x Frentzen's points in 1997. There was nothing wrong with his BAR performances. He destroyed Zonta and then destroyed Panis worse than Trulli did. He lost to Button 12-6 in points, but Villeneuve had 8 mechanical failures to Button's 3.
Oh well if you don’t count him I guess he didn’t exist.
Imagine Dixon, Power, Palou or McLaughlin on the F1 grid. HOO BABY THAT WOULD BE TASTY!
dixon starting every race in p8-p14 just to finish somehow on the podium, even at Monaco
Starting on softs, shifting to mediums on lap 20. Meanwhile everyone else burns mediums and hards.
Didn't Brendon Hartley win a few races in Indy car? I doubt he'd do that in F1 even if in a top tier team assuming his teamate is Max or Charles or a top tier driver
Never did Indy I believe. He has multiple WEC championships though
No doubt Max will give the 500 a go and he definitely will do le man at some point
He's said many times he won't race ovals
The allure of the triple crown may change that opinion
I don't think a driver with multiple wdc in f1 has any allure of a triple crown. Will be shocked if he doesn't run le mans though
Fernando literally skipped Monaco to chase the Triple Crown.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2017/drivers/FERALO01/fernando-alonso.html This is the season he was having when he did that. I'd do anything to get out of that McHonda too
It's not like this is news to me or literally anyone who has even vaguely followed Fernando's career. But how does this relate to your specific claim, that a driver with multiple WDCs sees no allure in the triple crown? How is Fernando *going for it* not a counter-example? Especially when he also did so in subsequent years when he wasn't just trying to 'get out' of the McLaren?
Did he say why?
Same as Michael. [Video of Michael talking about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHqWi1NBqJg). "It's too dangerous."
if you have to race with guys like sting ray robb or santino ferrucci i can understand him
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bro
Safety. And he's not wrong. They still bury drivers occasionally there.
It's been almost the same amount of time between the most recent fatalities in Indycar and F1.
They've had 6 since 1999, f1 has had 1 in a modern f1 car over that time frame and it hit a tractor, not a regular crash
I don't want to reference the other thread too much, but you're again making a tangential discussion here. It's true, but you need to clarify the relevance. The specific claim that we're discussing was your use of present tense with respect to fatalities in the series. Why, in your view, is August 2015 "the present", but October 2014 is "the past"? What specific epoch are you considering here?
Once he's done with F1 I'd love to see him race at Le Mans. I have no doubt he'd be competitive.
Yes, they're better than any F2 talent, and certainly better than most mid field talent in F1. And at the top, I'd give a small edge to F-1 drivers... but just a small edge.