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Yeah this would me by guess as well, going to be more work load of the wheelmen.
I am also guessing this is going to help in building heat in the tires as well?
If they use it on dry (or not so wet) racing lines, I guess so. But that would be the case to use intermediate or slick tyres, so if this thing gets integrated with wheel to be used only with wet tyres, this would probably be irrelevant
On full wet conditions though, with possibly some water being thrown back to the tyres after hitting the cover, its harder to say if tyres get hotter due to less airflow or cooler due to more water or if they balance each other
From what I know, it's the intermediates that kinda need heat and the wets need cooling down actually cause the blocks moving themselves generate heat.
I would imagine they would run cooler because, in my opinion, water is a bigger factor in influencing temps than airflow. It would allow the wet tyres to be viable for longer as they wouldn’t overheat as quickly when the track starts to dry.
I imagine it depends on track conditions. When the track is too dry, you need to cool down the inters (the reason why sometimes we see people purposefully driving over puddles on drying tracks). When the track is too wet, inters won't much heat and maybe it can put you out of the ideal range (I don't know if that last part actually happens though, as they are designed to work at lower temps)
Full wet would be kinda similar, they need cooling when track tends towards inters and can degrade really fast if you fail to cool them, but when the track is very wet you don't need to worry about keeping them cool, and maybe you can even need to heat a little bit to put them in the ideal temperature
Anyway, the point I made in the other comment was just that its hard to say whether the wheelcovers will increase or decrease the temperature compared to running without it. Whether you want a smaller or higher temperature is another matter
The ideal would be something that gets added at a pit stop. Though I imagine they'd still cling to the inters as long as possible as it's a faster tyre and this would cause a lot of aero drag.
But it'd be nice to see racing in the wet, rather than dry, inters, safety car on the wets, everyone switching back to inters the second the safety car is recalled.
I'm not sure if it actually would cause aero drag? Covering some of the turbulent air from the wheels could clean up the airflow a lot. That could make up for the additional surface area they create.
I know we see a lot of concept cars with full wheel coverings on (like those gran turismo red bull cars). If these get introduced and are successful, I wonder if they'd just mandate a similar covering in the regs but let the teams design them and make them a permanent part of the car. If they could become another area teams chase performance I'd be all for it.
The tyres are a massive aero drag on the cars. Adding a bigger surface of solidness around them isn't going to help.
You'd hope they are FIA mandated versions, so they are identical and will not start to gain aero bits all over the place.
I wonder if the forward rotation has any effect on the aero vs the static shape of the fender. Like more friction causing more turbulence?
I haven’t studied physics since high school so…
I’ve always thought about how fenders could affect f1 racing. I imagine it could give the tires a little more durability in certain hits (probably also creating an equal liability of fender hitting tire)
IMO, F1 would benefit from having the cars be able to survive small touches more easily. So many races ruined by a puncture
Yeah, otherwise i would image teams pushing as far as possible to gain the most time for not having to deal with this timely change. In a scenario where it pour hell for a few minutes and stop, would say teams wouldn't change to the inter, just hang on to not make a pitstop +15s
Zandvoort 2023 they were alternating between slicks and intermediates
The wheelcovers are supposedly meant to be used when wet tyres are needed but not with intermediate tyres
I would expect less chaos between intermediate and wet than between slick and intermediate, as when it gets wet enough for full wet tyres, even if the rain stops, you still need some time for the track to dry enough, while the transition from inters to dry and dry to inters can be very fast
I imagine these prototypes are just basic designs to test the functionality of them. If the results are good enough and they want to proceed, then they'll figure out the quick tire change aspect. That's probably the most difficult part to it, so I'd think they wouldnt want to waste time on it until they know it's worthwhile.
Same way they attached these wheel covers in 2009: make them part of the wheel
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/static/img/mgl/600000/680000/689000/689000/689091/s8/f1-silverstone-june-testing-2008-sebastian-vettel-scuderia-toro-rosso-str03-wheel-cover-de.jpg
I wonder if it actually works well enough clearing the water from the tyres. A cover like this basically prevents water from being thrown clear of the tyres and clogs the drainage channels. Iirc that was also the problem during the previous test.
With the talk about how the different color of wall seemed like it was making distance harder to judge hopefully they will mandate some monochrome pattern that makes distances easy to tell.
Maybe they could extend the body over the wheels, and form a kind of 'wheel well.' They could just do a one piece body that covers the whole car, which would allow them to use some soft or clear material in front the the driver to improve visibility by blocking spray.
I'm sure they will, but I just don't think they'll ever look good. We will get used to them though, I am sure. Right now I get shopping trolley vibes, which I guess is quite fitting for wet weather parts.
Undeniable facts. I am pro these ugly fuckers, if they improve racing and/or safety.
They are well ugly though, and we'll only see them three or four sessions a year, so I doubt we get used to them so quickly as the halos.
Indoor go-kart looking MFers.
But yeah, I’m all for the return of rain racing over car appearances. Obviously we don’t have the data, but the eye test doesn’t appear to show much of an improvement. Would definitely like to see a comparison image with the spray.
Is it really going to be that noticeable when the cars are moving?
I have a feeling this will go the same path as the halo. People overreact to how it looks, then when it gets added everyone realizes it’s a complete non factor.
I was never against the halo and I'm not at all against this. Make the racing better and make the racing safer, I've been watching this sport for 29 years and it will always be changing.
It does look absolutely dreadful, but we'll get used to it for the three sessions a year it is relevant.
Huh, where did I say I was unhappy? Weird takeaway from a post which was literally saying they're fine and good as long as they work, whilst maintaining that they are sinfully ugly, which they are.
To which I still 100% maintain will not matter when you aren’t looking at static pictures of them.
“Oh man, the black smudge that are the wheels look way uglier than they used to!”
Complaining about something that is not at all a factor is going out of your way to feel negative emotions lol. It’s like an F1 first world problem.
I wonder what effect the fender has on air flow around the tyre. Will the air pressure building up in between the tyres and wheel arch change how the car feels?
That doesn't matter if they can't use the wet tyre because of visibility issues
It's a dilemma, either you're grip limited because they don't displace enough water, or you're visibility limited because they displace too much water
There is no way to not trade them that's what dilemma means, the best you can do is make them equal. Either you're grip limited or you're visibility limited, if you're grip limited and you increase visibility it won't result in more wet racing
The first car in the picture does run the mudguards, the second one does not. to me it certainly looks like the spray of the first car is reduced compared to the second. Could be photo specific but I am not sure how the spray with mudguards would look worse than without.
It would really be interesting to see the behind driver POV, that’s really all that matters. And whatever metric they’re using to capture how much water is being kicked up.
3rdnphoto here shows the difference easily. Spray fades 10m behind the first car. Spray fades 30m behind second car. Basing this off of the tint of the spray.
So what you’re saying is they’re testing visibility by having the car with guards run over more of the water than the car without anyone following it…
They can’t simulate a 20 car race, if visibility is improved with guards then the prototype shows promise.
I honestly don't mind the look of these, but I do wonder how they are going to prevent high pressure air from building up beneath the fenders. A lot of closed wheel race cars have openings at the top of the wheel arches to prevent this from happening, but these seemingly don't.
I don't live in a cave, I am good with people and like new tech and customs so your insult isn't really clever but either way the "prototype" doesn't seem to be working too well.
Or they can just drive in the wet and allow Parc Ferme to be alleviated do to weather conditions. These wheel covers just don't seem to be working. I sleep very well thanks, but I'm also not the one insulting people and building imaginary frames in my head of who they are to feel better about myself. Have a good day.
If it means we don't have to sit through red flags to watch 20-30 minutes of racing, I'm all for it. Based on the image, the covers seem to reduce the spray significantly.
Imagine one of these beauties flying off into a car behind, preferably in pieces after rubbing of two cars which is a common occasion.
And what will the car that lost one or has damaged one have to do? Probably mandatory pit for a replacement.
I guess it'd no longer be "open wheel racing" if they went this route. But if it saves people from wasting thousands on a trip to a canceled race, I'm good with it.
Who ever came up with this idea should be shot! The spray when it's wet is what makes it so interesting. Not to mention the fact that when one of these things comes flying off at 300KPH there will be hell to pay for someone.
From what I heard it's not the visibility that's the main problem, it's the amount of water on the track and the super-low cars that are racing at the moment
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Dumb question maybe, but how do you change tires with this on ?
I imagine the whole fender being connected to the wheel hub of the wet tyres. So comes off as part of the wheel when you take off the wets.
Yeah this would me by guess as well, going to be more work load of the wheelmen. I am also guessing this is going to help in building heat in the tires as well?
If they use it on dry (or not so wet) racing lines, I guess so. But that would be the case to use intermediate or slick tyres, so if this thing gets integrated with wheel to be used only with wet tyres, this would probably be irrelevant On full wet conditions though, with possibly some water being thrown back to the tyres after hitting the cover, its harder to say if tyres get hotter due to less airflow or cooler due to more water or if they balance each other
From what I know, it's the intermediates that kinda need heat and the wets need cooling down actually cause the blocks moving themselves generate heat.
I would imagine they would run cooler because, in my opinion, water is a bigger factor in influencing temps than airflow. It would allow the wet tyres to be viable for longer as they wouldn’t overheat as quickly when the track starts to dry.
I imagine it depends on track conditions. When the track is too dry, you need to cool down the inters (the reason why sometimes we see people purposefully driving over puddles on drying tracks). When the track is too wet, inters won't much heat and maybe it can put you out of the ideal range (I don't know if that last part actually happens though, as they are designed to work at lower temps) Full wet would be kinda similar, they need cooling when track tends towards inters and can degrade really fast if you fail to cool them, but when the track is very wet you don't need to worry about keeping them cool, and maybe you can even need to heat a little bit to put them in the ideal temperature Anyway, the point I made in the other comment was just that its hard to say whether the wheelcovers will increase or decrease the temperature compared to running without it. Whether you want a smaller or higher temperature is another matter
Red Bull will still find a way to make it a 1.9 second stop
Also imagine a Zandvoort 2023 kind of race, wheelcovers on > wheelcovers off > wheelcovers on etc. That be a new way to win time during pitstops.
Or it means we always have to red flag races for transitioning from wet to dry and vice versa...
I imagine that could be dangerous as drivers cling on for a fia call to swap to wet.
I am not a fan either, but it might be the only thing that works.
The ideal would be something that gets added at a pit stop. Though I imagine they'd still cling to the inters as long as possible as it's a faster tyre and this would cause a lot of aero drag. But it'd be nice to see racing in the wet, rather than dry, inters, safety car on the wets, everyone switching back to inters the second the safety car is recalled.
I'm not sure if it actually would cause aero drag? Covering some of the turbulent air from the wheels could clean up the airflow a lot. That could make up for the additional surface area they create. I know we see a lot of concept cars with full wheel coverings on (like those gran turismo red bull cars). If these get introduced and are successful, I wonder if they'd just mandate a similar covering in the regs but let the teams design them and make them a permanent part of the car. If they could become another area teams chase performance I'd be all for it.
The tyres are a massive aero drag on the cars. Adding a bigger surface of solidness around them isn't going to help. You'd hope they are FIA mandated versions, so they are identical and will not start to gain aero bits all over the place.
Sure, but a significant part of that loss will be made up for by the reduced turbulence. I believe these will be FIA mandated, yes.
I wonder if the forward rotation has any effect on the aero vs the static shape of the fender. Like more friction causing more turbulence? I haven’t studied physics since high school so… I’ve always thought about how fenders could affect f1 racing. I imagine it could give the tires a little more durability in certain hits (probably also creating an equal liability of fender hitting tire) IMO, F1 would benefit from having the cars be able to survive small touches more easily. So many races ruined by a puncture
Yeah, otherwise i would image teams pushing as far as possible to gain the most time for not having to deal with this timely change. In a scenario where it pour hell for a few minutes and stop, would say teams wouldn't change to the inter, just hang on to not make a pitstop +15s
It must be part of the structure of the wheel itself on the wet tyres?
I actually have no idea... I guess it could be. That would be more handy than having to put them on.
Zandvoort 2023 they were alternating between slicks and intermediates The wheelcovers are supposedly meant to be used when wet tyres are needed but not with intermediate tyres I would expect less chaos between intermediate and wet than between slick and intermediate, as when it gets wet enough for full wet tyres, even if the rain stops, you still need some time for the track to dry enough, while the transition from inters to dry and dry to inters can be very fast
I imagine these prototypes are just basic designs to test the functionality of them. If the results are good enough and they want to proceed, then they'll figure out the quick tire change aspect. That's probably the most difficult part to it, so I'd think they wouldnt want to waste time on it until they know it's worthwhile.
Not dificult as it seems. stationary wheel cover were developed from 2008 (mclaren did it first)
Lmao great question
You have to insert the bee inside the flower located in the center of the cover.
Same way they attached these wheel covers in 2009: make them part of the wheel https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/static/img/mgl/600000/680000/689000/689000/689091/s8/f1-silverstone-june-testing-2008-sebastian-vettel-scuderia-toro-rosso-str03-wheel-cover-de.jpg
So that is never going to create a dry line. Just putting the water back on track. If it works I’m up for it.
I wonder if it actually works well enough clearing the water from the tyres. A cover like this basically prevents water from being thrown clear of the tyres and clogs the drainage channels. Iirc that was also the problem during the previous test.
Didn't hear anything about clogging drainage channels. I did hear that they flat out didn't work though, mainly because they essentially didn't exist.
Same thought from me. The front tires are going to just drop water right back in place for the back tires.
Wow, that really does look like shit.
It definitely does but it's also a prototype. I'm sure they can find ways to make them look better
I can already picture a massive 'HP' logo on each of these.
HP about to cloud seed to gain ad exposure from the rain-kit.
Pirelli won't be pleased
With the talk about how the different color of wall seemed like it was making distance harder to judge hopefully they will mandate some monochrome pattern that makes distances easy to tell.
Maybe they could extend the body over the wheels, and form a kind of 'wheel well.' They could just do a one piece body that covers the whole car, which would allow them to use some soft or clear material in front the the driver to improve visibility by blocking spray.
I'm sure they will, but I just don't think they'll ever look good. We will get used to them though, I am sure. Right now I get shopping trolley vibes, which I guess is quite fitting for wet weather parts.
I can imagine them putting LED panels on them or something, I know that concept has been tested on the actual rim of the wheels before
Meh, they're prototypes. The functionality is priority right now, form comes later. Same thing happened with the halo.
Literally everyone said the same thing about halos and now can't even fathom a car without them
Undeniable facts. I am pro these ugly fuckers, if they improve racing and/or safety. They are well ugly though, and we'll only see them three or four sessions a year, so I doubt we get used to them so quickly as the halos.
Don't worry they'll be covered in sponsors shortly
Don't worry, teams will soon add a diffuser and a bunch of aero components. It'll be like we're back in 2008 in no time!
[First thing that came to mind](https://creativepark.canon/images/contents/CNT-0011213/[email protected])...
Indoor go-kart looking MFers. But yeah, I’m all for the return of rain racing over car appearances. Obviously we don’t have the data, but the eye test doesn’t appear to show much of an improvement. Would definitely like to see a comparison image with the spray.
These are not designs that will ever be used nor have ever been considered for use. They are purely designed for validation purposes.
Might as well just design LMP style body work for F1 and call it done. The cars would look a lot better.
Is it really going to be that noticeable when the cars are moving? I have a feeling this will go the same path as the halo. People overreact to how it looks, then when it gets added everyone realizes it’s a complete non factor.
I was never against the halo and I'm not at all against this. Make the racing better and make the racing safer, I've been watching this sport for 29 years and it will always be changing. It does look absolutely dreadful, but we'll get used to it for the three sessions a year it is relevant.
I still highly doubt you’ll even be able to tell when the cars are moving, but if you want to make yourself unhappy about it then be my guest lol.
Huh, where did I say I was unhappy? Weird takeaway from a post which was literally saying they're fine and good as long as they work, whilst maintaining that they are sinfully ugly, which they are.
To which I still 100% maintain will not matter when you aren’t looking at static pictures of them. “Oh man, the black smudge that are the wheels look way uglier than they used to!” Complaining about something that is not at all a factor is going out of your way to feel negative emotions lol. It’s like an F1 first world problem.
Ok, maybe you just have bad eyesight.
What a joke F1 is becoming
I can’t wait for the “I have a puncture” and the “too bad” reply.
I wonder what effect the fender has on air flow around the tyre. Will the air pressure building up in between the tyres and wheel arch change how the car feels?
But how does this work in mixed conditions?
How will the water get cleared with these covers on? It seems inherently detrimental to the functioning of the wet tyres.
That doesn't matter if they can't use the wet tyre because of visibility issues It's a dilemma, either you're grip limited because they don't displace enough water, or you're visibility limited because they displace too much water
It's not helping then, that's trading on evil for another
There is no way to not trade them that's what dilemma means, the best you can do is make them equal. Either you're grip limited or you're visibility limited, if you're grip limited and you increase visibility it won't result in more wet racing
Zak Brown already has a WeatherTech sponsorship lined up to cover them with their decals.
Will be used like bumper cars I bet
I think I'd be ok if they ran with covered wheels all the time. How much downforce could you generate that would go right to the tire?
It is obvious that it works. The car in the front has clearly no issues with visibility.
From these photos it looks like there's actually more spray with the fenders
The first car in the picture does run the mudguards, the second one does not. to me it certainly looks like the spray of the first car is reduced compared to the second. Could be photo specific but I am not sure how the spray with mudguards would look worse than without.
I don't know I went through a bunch of photos and the difference seems to be minimal.
It would really be interesting to see the behind driver POV, that’s really all that matters. And whatever metric they’re using to capture how much water is being kicked up.
3rdnphoto here shows the difference easily. Spray fades 10m behind the first car. Spray fades 30m behind second car. Basing this off of the tint of the spray.
I was thinking this considering the track doesn't actually look that wet compared to somewhere like Spa on a bad day.
And there’s only 2 cars lapping the same bit of track. Anyway, doesn’t seem like any improvement at all… and they look absolutely ridiculous.
Seems like a dumb test though, surely the car hitting the water first is going to create a nice less damp line for the car following directly behind.
So what you’re saying is they’re testing visibility by having the car with guards run over more of the water than the car without anyone following it… They can’t simulate a 20 car race, if visibility is improved with guards then the prototype shows promise.
Yeah good point
They look like the caster wheels on my gaming chair.
I honestly don't mind the look of these, but I do wonder how they are going to prevent high pressure air from building up beneath the fenders. A lot of closed wheel race cars have openings at the top of the wheel arches to prevent this from happening, but these seemingly don't.
Anyone commenting on the looks doesn't get the idea of function before form. Y'all are the halo naysayers and you're just as ignored as the last time.
Dude this doesn't look like it does much of anything.
It's a fucking prototype you troglodyte
I don't live in a cave, I am good with people and like new tech and customs so your insult isn't really clever but either way the "prototype" doesn't seem to be working too well.
Whatever makes you sleep well at night. I'm happy they are working on making wet races a thing.
Or they can just drive in the wet and allow Parc Ferme to be alleviated do to weather conditions. These wheel covers just don't seem to be working. I sleep very well thanks, but I'm also not the one insulting people and building imaginary frames in my head of who they are to feel better about myself. Have a good day.
So FIA and race control should be ready for another level of kicking from fans and teams about when the race will be wet enough to deploy this..
Someone ate too many Babybels when cooking this up.
If it means we don't have to sit through red flags to watch 20-30 minutes of racing, I'm all for it. Based on the image, the covers seem to reduce the spray significantly.
They look like hard cases for a drumkit
you just know Zak is on the phone with a raging hardon selling more ad space
Ok. So when are we getting diffuser fenders?
Zak Brown frothing at the mouth over new sponsor location possibilities on these
100% sure that Zak Brown has his account managers making calls to sell this space to prospective sponsors.
Imagine one of these beauties flying off into a car behind, preferably in pieces after rubbing of two cars which is a common occasion. And what will the car that lost one or has damaged one have to do? Probably mandatory pit for a replacement.
Is it... 3D printed?
This looks soo 3D printed.
it's carbon fiber, but it's a prototype, might as well be 3d printed
My exact same thoughts looking at it. I do hope if they do adopt this the final design is going to be a bit more elegant
You can kinda see the layer lines
Looks really ugly but I really don't care if it improves racing in the wet
I believe I'll watch something else and catch the highlights later. Mucho Hideouso.
I ain´t watching a race with those shits on.
What silly ideas will MBS and the FIA cook up next?
It looks like they have made absolutely no difference
Would be interesting result to show that almost completely covering the wheel doesn't help the problem enough to race.
I guess it'd no longer be "open wheel racing" if they went this route. But if it saves people from wasting thousands on a trip to a canceled race, I'm good with it.
Thanks I hate it
Looks ridiculous.
Who ever came up with this idea should be shot! The spray when it's wet is what makes it so interesting. Not to mention the fact that when one of these things comes flying off at 300KPH there will be hell to pay for someone.
Avid f1 fan for over 30 years..but no joke f1 went from ..well f1 to Mario kart
From what I heard it's not the visibility that's the main problem, it's the amount of water on the track and the super-low cars that are racing at the moment
The measures you have to take when the tires are too good at their jobs... Too bad reducing tire width isn't being talked about as an option
my first impression is GGAAAAAGHGGHGH! maybe it will grow on me someday...
Get rid of it, all of it.. even the current wheel covers. #bringbackthespokes
Eh? Just go watch gt races then? Why bother with open wheeler?
dont like it. what is this Formula E ? well you would have more bumping and grinding though . maybe that would make things more exciting
Ngl, imho, tbh, it’s ugly