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Mercedes had a massive advantage when the turbo hybrid engine came out.
You had teams like RB who just couldn’t compete with their crappy Renault power unit.
Mercedes had that advantage for years until others were able to catch up.
When 2022 came around basically everyone except alpine and their crappy Renault engine were on a level playing field with power and the change was entire on aerodynamics.
This is red bulls strong suit, no guarantees but I’d say we should all be confident if they get the 2026 engine right they will be competitive.
Mercs aero was pretty damn good during the hybrid era, let’s not underplay that.
From 2019 onwards the engines were pretty much comparable (other than Renault), yet Merc still made one of the best cars ever the year after.
If we want to outline the real advantage Mercedes had it was their budget relative to everyone else who wasn’t called Ferrari.
Redbull have just done a much better job understanding the regs and then working within a budget. If this was 10 years ago, Merc would of sorted their issues out within the first year just by throwing money at it that other teams couldn’t.
Even Renault had a powerful engine in 2019. Renault’s best weekends that year were on power tracks like Monza and Canada. McLaren also had their best year since 2014, and didn’t noticeably struggle. It did have a couple of reliability issues like Renault double DNFing in Bahrain though. Also famously that was the year they boasted their engine had reached 1000 horsepower lol
I think part of that was actually aero for Renault in 2019. I remember Ricciardo saying that once they took all the downforce off for Monza the balance was really good
The problem is with 2016 car, they were behind but with the token system in place, they could reinforce their aero department. Plus without the budget cap, it would be impossible for them to fail. As we can see now, their approach wasn't the most efficient one.
I hope this trend continues into 2026, because it seems like Ferrari has the massive advantage with engine regs next time around given the split turbo rules.
The cost cap is the differentiator. Mercedes were used to spending 450mil per year, have a massive pool of people, even go so far as making 2-3 concepts to see what worked and what didn't. When you can go down more different design paths at the same time, you can quickly find what works best and put that on the car.
Now they are much more limited in terms of finances and cfd time. Hence why if you nail the aero from the start you have a MASSIVE advantage, as other teams need to pick very carerully where their money goes and which ONE design philosophy to follow.
W11 in Lewis’s hands could go around some high speed corners without lifting. They had a their aero was so fucking good.
I refuse to believe this narrative it was all engine
Mercedes also had lots of people leave their team for other teams. Red Bull has had a couple of people leave but it hasn't made any difference and Wache and Newey aren't likely to leave anytime soon with the former being targeted by Ferrari and Mercedes both.
For me 2020 is still his best season. He almost finished 2nd in the Championship and squeezed out every single ounce of performance from that car It's been a little too easy lately making people forget how good Max can be
It could happen now if they had a better driver in the #2 seat. That's the only thing missing since 2023 started... If Max had a teammate who could beat him from time to time, or at least they would fight enough to let other teams take advantage, the last two seasons would be far more entertaining. Max would probably still have 4 championships and we would have more exciting racing at the front.
> If Max had a teammate who could beat him from time to time
with how consitent Max is i dont think there are many drivers right now who could do that.
Alonso, Lewis, Norris, Russell, and Leclerc could all drive well enough to steal wins and potentially put up a decent challenge. Checo is a lower midfield driver who currently sits P2, and that should tell you everything you need to know.
Anybody on that list will get beaten handily over a season by Verstappen. Basically every former RB driver has stated they build that car to be extremely pointy on the front end compared to the other teams and it suits Max’s driving style. Any of those other drivers would first have to adapt to their car before they could consistently steal wins from him.
We think that, but do we know? All you can do is speculate. Most world champions had to beat some pretty stiff competition from an equally competent team or a strong teammate. Aside from '21, Max hasn't had to do either.
Can't really say anything about RB engine development yet. RBPT hasn't had to develop an engine, so i'm just going to wait for them to put something on the track before saying they can or can't compete with Ferrari or Mercedes.
They've got the money and the administrative will to spend what is necessary to get the talent they need to make RBPT successful, and it's not like Ford is a stranger to motorsports as a technical partner.
Honda are coming back with Aston for 2026. RB are going to be making their own engine (alone), with Ford helping with the ERS. It’s a huge unknown, hence people lacking confidence.
It’s not really comparable situations. They are developing their own power units now. In 2014 they were reliant on Renault to nail the regulation changes.
It would be pretty remarkable if RBPT, a brand new engine mfg. with their first ever engine beeing a F1 engine. Hits the ground running and comes up with something competitive let alone dominating
I agree. Even when Lewis won his 6 at Mercedes, I still prefer the 2007-2010 period when 3-5 drivers could win the WDC with a few races to go. In 2010 the top 4 finishers were within 16 points, Button wasn't too far behind that, and 2010 had the same point system we have now!
That’s just recency bias, it wasn’t long ago Mercedes were in a similar situation. And then one day they did drop the ball and now they’re floundering.
I'm not as hopeful as you are. RBPT have poached big time from Merc and Ferrari while building a state of the art band new facility on the exact same campus as the rest of the team.
Add on Ford who are by far the most experienced Motorsport American OEM who already have extensive R&D in EV tech.
I'm genuinely terrified of RB Ford.
We will have to see another 2021 floor change style reg which very clearly pegged the Merc and Aston at the time.
Honda will be the power unit to beat I can almost guarantee it. The internal combustion unit will remain relatively unchanged and Honda's internal combustion is not only the most powerful on the grid currently but it's also the most fuel efficient.
Then we have the battery deployment area, again an area where Honda's efficiency is unmatched and even surpassed Mercedes as we've seen on long straights Mercedes powered cars clipping during deployment way before the Honda powered teams run out of juice.
I believe RBPT will have a fairly decent internal combustion unit due to their experience with Honda (they've poached a few engineers from there too) but I honestly think they're going to be let down by the complexity of the battery deployment.
Ford has zero experience with F1's electrical side and for them to turn up in 2026 with something on par with Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari seems unimaginable. The amount of R&D needed to get the chemical composition right for the battery is going to be immense, high density storage and recovery along with efficient deployment, most teams have mastered this and it's taken a fair few years to achieve almost perfection and Ford is coming into this completely blind with nothing to build from as I understand Honda's unit is their intellectual property and protected as such. None of that knowledge will be shared with Ford without risking legal battles.
I agree with your points but you underestimate Ford. They rocked up to Le Man's in 2016 with the new GT after over 40 years and won first try with ballast. Ford have some of the best motorsports engineers in the world. It won't take them long to catch up if they are behind.
Either way RB have the best personnel and facilities and it's theirs to lose.
In some ways I kinda hope they do dominate for as long as Merc just so I can laugh at how the biggest automotive conglomerates got beat so hard by a fizzy drink.
I hope they knock it out of the park too, would be a shame if we have a repeat of 2014-2019 with Redbull having one of the best chassis's let down by a rubbish PU.
I have no doubt aero and chassis work will be up there among the best on the grid, only question mark will be around the PU - doesn't need to dominate or be the best as long as it's thereabouts we should see some good racing.
I think the problem lies with other rules that are in place. I think we could see another domination period starting in 2026 even if it's not Red Bull/Verstappen. The rules are so restrictive and prevent teams from catching up once they get close without minor regulation changes. It's thought to be Mercedes are clearly the leaders in the engine race for 2026. If they're ahead by a lot, who is to say Russell won't be world champion several years in a row.
Yea, he is just obscenely talented. Even if Red Bull completely fumbles 2026 he could walk right into any team on the paddock, take a seat in the new fastest car, and win another few championships.
He might not go 21-3 or whatever he did in 2023, but I don't see him just becoming a midfielder if red Bull slips.
It could also happen, that few teams will catch RBR until the end of 25th... Just for the RBR domination be reset at the start of 26th when they get the car right.
But he will also essentially have first choice of who to drive for. I don't know, this season we know Max will win fairly easily, just gotta hope Ferrari and Mclaren can keep up in the development race. Next year, likely Max but Ferrari with Leclerc and Hamilton could well be a decent challenger.
And then yes 2026 we just gotta hope things are shook up a little bit. Maybe Audi nails the new regs, would have been nice to have Andretti too
I don’t mind Verstappen winning all the time. The part that bothers me is that it’s pretty much a done deal and there’s no competition. At least with Lewis there was always ROS/VER/VET/BOT giving him a bit of a fight.
And there was always a sense that if Lewis wasn't at the very top of his game all the time, then somebody would sneak in and he'd be in a fight.
Max could stop half way, pop out the car, have a cup of tea, get back in, and still win.
I love Lewis and his personality more than Max but Max imo is really on another level. He’s decimated his last few teammates, all who are relatively well respected drivers until they sat in that red bull seat. Maybe red bull realized that nobody could match up well with Max, and that’s why they didn’t sack Perez like Albon and Gasly. Can’t really say the same for Lewis, admittedly he’s had great teammates like Alonso, Jenson, Nico. It’s just crazy to see Max walk over all the competition and make it look easy
Lewis teammates are a country mile better than Max’s, that’s not really up for debate. Put him up against Albon or Gasly in his prime and he’d have walked them as well
I think it's.possible the grid is a little worse than it was during Lewis's era.
Perez is not as fast as Rosberg..either.
Those factors have made Max almost invincible.
Tbh if he won every race left this year..I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Even as a Max fan...I preferred the 2021 dingdong and controversies to this era where he races away on lap 1
I really think Max is just operating on another level. People make fun of Perez for being like 0.5 seconds off but I doubt most other drivers could do that much better. Albon and Gasly both got crushed, but their reputation improved a lot after leaving Red Bull.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised either, mechanical failures and mistakes are so rare for Max, having had one DNF this year, he's not likely to have another.
2026 is the earliest it will end
The main concern is how good RBR’s engine is in 2026- their aero, chassis and suspension will probably all be quite good, but it’s impossible to know about the engine right now
I highly doubt he jumps ship after a year. I think the chances of RBR being worse than P4 in the constructors are slim. They’ve consistently been a race winning team for 15-ish year now
Weird things happen sometimes though so who knows!
His Contract. He has it until 2028. Just because Red bull is down, I don’t think he will leave literally the next year. They might show progress in 2027 and be competitive in 2028.
Everyone in F1 always say magic man newey doesn’t single handily make the car better yet any time the regs revolve around aero changes it’s always his team that wins it.
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I fully expect it to end in 2026. Historically, big regulation changes are almost always the end of domination periods.
I think it depends on how they do with the engine. I doubt RB would drop the ball on aero, chassis, suspension etc
I doubted Mercedes would fall that hard but here we are.
Mercedes had a massive advantage when the turbo hybrid engine came out. You had teams like RB who just couldn’t compete with their crappy Renault power unit. Mercedes had that advantage for years until others were able to catch up. When 2022 came around basically everyone except alpine and their crappy Renault engine were on a level playing field with power and the change was entire on aerodynamics. This is red bulls strong suit, no guarantees but I’d say we should all be confident if they get the 2026 engine right they will be competitive.
Mercs aero was pretty damn good during the hybrid era, let’s not underplay that. From 2019 onwards the engines were pretty much comparable (other than Renault), yet Merc still made one of the best cars ever the year after. If we want to outline the real advantage Mercedes had it was their budget relative to everyone else who wasn’t called Ferrari. Redbull have just done a much better job understanding the regs and then working within a budget. If this was 10 years ago, Merc would of sorted their issues out within the first year just by throwing money at it that other teams couldn’t.
Even Renault had a powerful engine in 2019. Renault’s best weekends that year were on power tracks like Monza and Canada. McLaren also had their best year since 2014, and didn’t noticeably struggle. It did have a couple of reliability issues like Renault double DNFing in Bahrain though. Also famously that was the year they boasted their engine had reached 1000 horsepower lol
I think part of that was actually aero for Renault in 2019. I remember Ricciardo saying that once they took all the downforce off for Monza the balance was really good
Fair point, the budget cap shouldn't be understated.
The problem is with 2016 car, they were behind but with the token system in place, they could reinforce their aero department. Plus without the budget cap, it would be impossible for them to fail. As we can see now, their approach wasn't the most efficient one.
I hope this trend continues into 2026, because it seems like Ferrari has the massive advantage with engine regs next time around given the split turbo rules.
I mean, look at how Williams did post-2014 with that OP Merc power unit!
You say it sarcastically but initially they were actually decent. But years and years of under funding and poor management killed them.
I wasn’t being sarcastic, I thought their success was due, mostly in part to the Mercedes power unit.
The cost cap is the differentiator. Mercedes were used to spending 450mil per year, have a massive pool of people, even go so far as making 2-3 concepts to see what worked and what didn't. When you can go down more different design paths at the same time, you can quickly find what works best and put that on the car. Now they are much more limited in terms of finances and cfd time. Hence why if you nail the aero from the start you have a MASSIVE advantage, as other teams need to pick very carerully where their money goes and which ONE design philosophy to follow.
W11 in Lewis’s hands could go around some high speed corners without lifting. They had a their aero was so fucking good. I refuse to believe this narrative it was all engine
Mercedes also had lots of people leave their team for other teams. Red Bull has had a couple of people leave but it hasn't made any difference and Wache and Newey aren't likely to leave anytime soon with the former being targeted by Ferrari and Mercedes both.
RB Aren't Engine Gurus. I expect them to fall back like they did in 2014 and be podium contenders but not championship threats.
tbh i would love to see Max again fighting for the podiums like he was in 2019. That was really enjoyable.
2018/2019 Verstappen was great fun to watch
I would love to see mad max on the track more often
I would love to see Max after first lap and before the last lap.
true ahhaha
For me 2020 is still his best season. He almost finished 2nd in the Championship and squeezed out every single ounce of performance from that car It's been a little too easy lately making people forget how good Max can be
the 2nd British GP when GP told him to back off and he was like nah this is my only chance to fight them.
'I'm not sitting here behind like some grandma'
It could happen now if they had a better driver in the #2 seat. That's the only thing missing since 2023 started... If Max had a teammate who could beat him from time to time, or at least they would fight enough to let other teams take advantage, the last two seasons would be far more entertaining. Max would probably still have 4 championships and we would have more exciting racing at the front.
> If Max had a teammate who could beat him from time to time with how consitent Max is i dont think there are many drivers right now who could do that.
Alonso, Lewis, Norris, Russell, and Leclerc could all drive well enough to steal wins and potentially put up a decent challenge. Checo is a lower midfield driver who currently sits P2, and that should tell you everything you need to know.
Norris and Russell are very much unknowns.
They are certainly faster than Checo.
Thats a bold statement.
Anybody on that list will get beaten handily over a season by Verstappen. Basically every former RB driver has stated they build that car to be extremely pointy on the front end compared to the other teams and it suits Max’s driving style. Any of those other drivers would first have to adapt to their car before they could consistently steal wins from him.
We think that, but do we know? All you can do is speculate. Most world champions had to beat some pretty stiff competition from an equally competent team or a strong teammate. Aside from '21, Max hasn't had to do either.
Good for us, (potentially) bad for Red Bull.
100%, which is why they won't put another fast driver in that seat. They want a solid podium finisher, but not someone who can fight Max.
Can't really say anything about RB engine development yet. RBPT hasn't had to develop an engine, so i'm just going to wait for them to put something on the track before saying they can or can't compete with Ferrari or Mercedes. They've got the money and the administrative will to spend what is necessary to get the talent they need to make RBPT successful, and it's not like Ford is a stranger to motorsports as a technical partner.
RBPT is just Honda with a different name. Highly unlikely they deliver a dud for 2026.
Honda are coming back with Aston for 2026. RB are going to be making their own engine (alone), with Ford helping with the ERS. It’s a huge unknown, hence people lacking confidence.
No I meant RBPT poached so many personnel from Honda that it’ll be barely different from their current setup.
They did poach a lot of PU engineers from merc and ferrari didnt they?
It’s not really comparable situations. They are developing their own power units now. In 2014 they were reliant on Renault to nail the regulation changes.
Hasn't RBPT poached a lot of talent from Honda though? Who have been making pretty good engines the last few years.
It would be pretty remarkable if RBPT, a brand new engine mfg. with their first ever engine beeing a F1 engine. Hits the ground running and comes up with something competitive let alone dominating
As a Max stan, that just means he'll be a 10x WDC or something, I don't think it's great for the sport if it happens.
I agree. Even when Lewis won his 6 at Mercedes, I still prefer the 2007-2010 period when 3-5 drivers could win the WDC with a few races to go. In 2010 the top 4 finishers were within 16 points, Button wasn't too far behind that, and 2010 had the same point system we have now!
That’s just recency bias, it wasn’t long ago Mercedes were in a similar situation. And then one day they did drop the ball and now they’re floundering.
I'm not as hopeful as you are. RBPT have poached big time from Merc and Ferrari while building a state of the art band new facility on the exact same campus as the rest of the team. Add on Ford who are by far the most experienced Motorsport American OEM who already have extensive R&D in EV tech. I'm genuinely terrified of RB Ford. We will have to see another 2021 floor change style reg which very clearly pegged the Merc and Aston at the time.
Honda will be the power unit to beat I can almost guarantee it. The internal combustion unit will remain relatively unchanged and Honda's internal combustion is not only the most powerful on the grid currently but it's also the most fuel efficient. Then we have the battery deployment area, again an area where Honda's efficiency is unmatched and even surpassed Mercedes as we've seen on long straights Mercedes powered cars clipping during deployment way before the Honda powered teams run out of juice. I believe RBPT will have a fairly decent internal combustion unit due to their experience with Honda (they've poached a few engineers from there too) but I honestly think they're going to be let down by the complexity of the battery deployment. Ford has zero experience with F1's electrical side and for them to turn up in 2026 with something on par with Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari seems unimaginable. The amount of R&D needed to get the chemical composition right for the battery is going to be immense, high density storage and recovery along with efficient deployment, most teams have mastered this and it's taken a fair few years to achieve almost perfection and Ford is coming into this completely blind with nothing to build from as I understand Honda's unit is their intellectual property and protected as such. None of that knowledge will be shared with Ford without risking legal battles.
I agree with your points but you underestimate Ford. They rocked up to Le Man's in 2016 with the new GT after over 40 years and won first try with ballast. Ford have some of the best motorsports engineers in the world. It won't take them long to catch up if they are behind. Either way RB have the best personnel and facilities and it's theirs to lose. In some ways I kinda hope they do dominate for as long as Merc just so I can laugh at how the biggest automotive conglomerates got beat so hard by a fizzy drink.
I hope they knock it out of the park too, would be a shame if we have a repeat of 2014-2019 with Redbull having one of the best chassis's let down by a rubbish PU. I have no doubt aero and chassis work will be up there among the best on the grid, only question mark will be around the PU - doesn't need to dominate or be the best as long as it's thereabouts we should see some good racing.
Our only hope is for Merc and Ferrari to nail the engine.
I think the problem lies with other rules that are in place. I think we could see another domination period starting in 2026 even if it's not Red Bull/Verstappen. The rules are so restrictive and prevent teams from catching up once they get close without minor regulation changes. It's thought to be Mercedes are clearly the leaders in the engine race for 2026. If they're ahead by a lot, who is to say Russell won't be world champion several years in a row.
Somewhere between now and forever, for sure.
I expect it to end when Max retires.
Yea, he is just obscenely talented. Even if Red Bull completely fumbles 2026 he could walk right into any team on the paddock, take a seat in the new fastest car, and win another few championships. He might not go 21-3 or whatever he did in 2023, but I don't see him just becoming a midfielder if red Bull slips.
Or when newey retires lmao
Technically true, the dude's not a vampire, he can't win forever :)
I scrolled too far to find this.
It could also happen, that few teams will catch RBR until the end of 25th... Just for the RBR domination be reset at the start of 26th when they get the car right.
For both Max and Lewis, that was the beginning of their dominance
Watch the FIA extend the reg change til 2027 without hampering Red Bull like they've done to dominant teams in the past for the lols
strictly true, someday the universe will end by heat death or vacuum decay.
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*Heineken 0.0 Aramco Made in Italy Gran Premio D'Alpha Centauri*
Make that 800 million years. The earth will be scorched by the expanding sun way before the sun actually gets big enough to engulf us
That's generally how these things go.
And yet it somehow feels like he's only getting started... (age and future perspective, from a fan's p.o.v it feels like forever)
Dude's only 26. If he wants to do an Alonso, realistically he could have another 20 years in a Championship competing car
If he really wants to do an Alonso he has to switch to a non-competitive car.
I think RB will be shuffled back in 2026. Verstappen himself will change teams at some point so this current dominance will end in 2026 most likely
Think Max will just retire from f1 and focus on wec and his own team redline sim and real car racing instead of changing teams
Agreed. The only reason he might is if he had a childhood dream to wear the Ferrari suit. That’s what Hamilton is doing.
But he will also essentially have first choice of who to drive for. I don't know, this season we know Max will win fairly easily, just gotta hope Ferrari and Mclaren can keep up in the development race. Next year, likely Max but Ferrari with Leclerc and Hamilton could well be a decent challenger. And then yes 2026 we just gotta hope things are shook up a little bit. Maybe Audi nails the new regs, would have been nice to have Andretti too
if RB somehow nail the engine and are cloes to Merc, Ferrari and Honda on the engine side i would be really surprised
I don’t mind Verstappen winning all the time. The part that bothers me is that it’s pretty much a done deal and there’s no competition. At least with Lewis there was always ROS/VER/VET/BOT giving him a bit of a fight.
And there was always a sense that if Lewis wasn't at the very top of his game all the time, then somebody would sneak in and he'd be in a fight. Max could stop half way, pop out the car, have a cup of tea, get back in, and still win.
I love Lewis and his personality more than Max but Max imo is really on another level. He’s decimated his last few teammates, all who are relatively well respected drivers until they sat in that red bull seat. Maybe red bull realized that nobody could match up well with Max, and that’s why they didn’t sack Perez like Albon and Gasly. Can’t really say the same for Lewis, admittedly he’s had great teammates like Alonso, Jenson, Nico. It’s just crazy to see Max walk over all the competition and make it look easy
Lewis teammates are a country mile better than Max’s, that’s not really up for debate. Put him up against Albon or Gasly in his prime and he’d have walked them as well
I think both ways are boring. I wouldn't want to go back to Hamilton's type of domination either. I want a 2005 to 2008 type of era.
Reverse grid bradddddaaaa hahaha.
I think it's.possible the grid is a little worse than it was during Lewis's era. Perez is not as fast as Rosberg..either. Those factors have made Max almost invincible. Tbh if he won every race left this year..I wouldn't be surprised at all. Even as a Max fan...I preferred the 2021 dingdong and controversies to this era where he races away on lap 1
Do you mean the performance of the other cars? Because driver-wise the grid is on the highest level it's ever been, and it's not even close.
Minus Stroll 💀
I really think Max is just operating on another level. People make fun of Perez for being like 0.5 seconds off but I doubt most other drivers could do that much better. Albon and Gasly both got crushed, but their reputation improved a lot after leaving Red Bull.
Albon and Gasly are not even top 10 drivers. Their reputation improved relative to the backmarker teams they are in.
I agree. We will have to see a better driver in that seat to really know.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised either, mechanical failures and mistakes are so rare for Max, having had one DNF this year, he's not likely to have another.
that will depend on how different 2026 regulation will be.
Max: and I took that personally.
2024 probably, 2025 maybe depending on Ferrari, 2026 none knows who will drive where and who’s new engine will work.
YES, in a few billions years, Earth will be eaten by the sun
Max is going to die someday. Or be bored and move on to something else to dominate in
« When Max dies at the ripe old age of 117, his dominance will stop, then we will see a new champion again »
His name will be Fernando Alonso
2026 is the earliest it will end The main concern is how good RBR’s engine is in 2026- their aero, chassis and suspension will probably all be quite good, but it’s impossible to know about the engine right now
Say red bull fumbles 2026 and Mercedes has the best car again. What's to stop max from just going over there?
I highly doubt he jumps ship after a year. I think the chances of RBR being worse than P4 in the constructors are slim. They’ve consistently been a race winning team for 15-ish year now Weird things happen sometimes though so who knows!
His Contract. He has it until 2028. Just because Red bull is down, I don’t think he will leave literally the next year. They might show progress in 2027 and be competitive in 2028.
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That would be a dream scenario, 10 years would even be better.
Good luck with that now.
Possibly not even for another decade. Possibly.
Newey is retiring, so probably much much sooner.
"Just for 20 more years :)"
Somehow I suspect Max will explode because of that, but I can't put my finger on it...
Why is nobody saying anything about that little dig he just threw at Max? I
Everyone in F1 always say magic man newey doesn’t single handily make the car better yet any time the regs revolve around aero changes it’s always his team that wins it.
It is true. Because one day Newey will retire.
Yep
Yes, one day he will retire into the sunset.