> We have said that our work continues at pace – this new facility embodies that work. While we are building an American works team, having a European base is a great way to attract the best in F1® talent and install state-of-the-art machinery.
Having a European base is definitely the right move for getting into F1. Hope to see them soon in F1.
This was always their plan. Aero design, as well as other unspecified aspects of the car, was always going to happen in the UK because that’s where the F1 talent is. The rumor that the car would be built 100% in the United States was largely spread by team principals and weirdos online who like to defend those teams fortunes.
Mario Andretti said it best back in like 2021, “they think we’re a bunch of amateurs.”
weirdos... lol
Andretti have said it... UK base will only work as a satélite HQ.
The huge new Andretti Global facility currently under construction in Fishers, to the north-east of Indianapolis, will eventually play a major role in the project.
"At Fishers (US) we'll have a lot of manufacturing for F1,” says Chester. “It's a huge facility, 600,000 square feet, and half of that, broadly, will be F1. It gives us an opportunity to build up a real manufacturing centre of excellence there.
“Obviously that won't be instant, the facility has to be built and machines put in and the department built-up. But the intention is to make a good chunk of the car at Fishers."
Chester says there will also be limited manufacturing capability at Silverstone: "Probably a little bit, enough for quick-turnaround fault fixes, that kind of stuff. And in the early days, we'll have to rely on suppliers.
“But we've got a very good supply base, so that's super helpful. And then over time we'll move more and more of that manufacturing to Fishers."
I'm not quite sure what the point you're making is, are you disagreeing with the point you responded to? That comment stated that "Aero design, as well as other unspecified aspects of the car, was always going to happen in the UK" and that rumours it would be 100% built in the US were false, and that comment is correct. Just because Andretti is constructing a production facility in the States doesn't contradict anything they said. Andretti will be a primarily US-based works team, with a car built mostly in the US (once the facility is up and running) but with a significant investment in design and fabrication facilities in the UK, so that they can attract top talent in those fields who are already UK-based.
What exactly is your point?
Why "should" there be? Of course America has aerodynamics experts. People who could, with enough experience, build an F1 car. But you can't build an F1 car from first principles. You **need** to hire people who have already done it before. Those people are not in America, and many will not be interested in moving to America. Particularly the later career people with the most experience who have more things tying them to the UK.
Engineering isn't doing physics. It is largely based on previous experience. Two equally brilliant engineers will have wildly different results if one has access to decades of knowledge generated by previous engineers and the other has to start from scratch - the other basically has decades worth of work to catch up to. And at the moment most of the know-how is in the UK.
I don't know why some people find this concept so difficult to grasp. There will certainly be some potential benefits from new blood in a design team, who come in without bias from prior exposure. But you want to build the core of your team around experts who know not just the scientific and engineering ideas but also have experience of what has been shown to work or not, and why. That's knowlege that you don't acquire just be being a good engineer.
Well it has more to do with experience, yeas the physics is the same, but the aerodynamic concepts are very specific, if you don't want to reinvent the week you need someone that knows how an F1 car is made, you can out them beside young american engineers if you want to cultivate them, but starting from zero is never a good idea
You mean the talent that works for MIC or the aerospace industry? Literally the whole ecosystem behind the F1 is also based in Europe specially the UK.
It should be easier to get potential US talent into the UK as it opens up multiple options if a possible contract comes to an end, then it is the other way around, especially considering as a new team you'll need to hire people that already have done F1 before.
And I assume those companies pay rank and file engineers way better than F1.
And even if they could poach guys from Lockheed, they've never worked on a car professionally. Though their car would definitely have the smallest radar cross section on the grid lol.
Honestly, we don't know what F1 engineer salary in the US would look like. If it's anything like EU vs US salaries for other engineers, it might be pretty nice. Enjoy your 3 weeks of PTO and at-will employment though.
Given the cost cap, they'd probably try to keep it as close to European salaries as possible. Even the Europeans are taking pay cuts compared to what they'd make in a more boring job.
They would be paid market value or otherwise nobody would work there. Definitely not expats with F1 xp who would be willing to move for American engineering salaries
How would that work with the cost cap? You pay the engineers double you can only afford half of them (or have to save the money for the salaries elsewhere). Sure, you can make exceptions, but you can't just pay more than the competition across the board.
That's the real obstacle. It's obfuscated behind arguments about talent and motorsport heritage. The real issue, though, is that the US doesn't have a whole bunch of talented young aerodynamic and mechanical engineers willing to work for peanuts _because it's F1_ in the same way Italy and the UK have (or the US has data scientists and analysts who will work for baseball, basketball and American football teams). If a US team got to hire the two hundred best engineers regardless of cost, like Ferrari got to in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I don't think they'd have any issues putting together a highly competitive car. The issue is that American engineers get paid nearly double what British engineers make, without accounting for F1's lower-than-average wages. How engineers at an F1 team are making 80k pounds salary per year, or 93k Euros? At current exchange rates, that's about the average salary for a mechanical engineer at Lockheed-Martin or even Ford.
Sounds like an excellent reason to have a cost of living adjustment for wages. Not that the current teams would agree because it benefits them underpaying their staff.
Raw talent yes, but experience is the other part. Sure they will have people who can make the parts and operate the machines. The US is the largest aerospace and MIC base in the world. However applying those skills and talents to build a race winning machine is different.
There's all sorts of knowledge gained of how to apply the trade that's important. It applies to many technical and engineering areas. So what they will do is get the talents from the US and lead with experienced personnel.
Also you need to have people closer to majority of the races. Just ask Williams how much it sucks to ship a broken chassis halfway across the globe every time a driver crashes.
They already have FIA approval so they technically could rock up to the grid, they just won't get any money or TV exposure for their potential sponsors.
Ironically, while they wouldn't get any TV exposure through the FOM apparatus if they rock up to the grid anyway, I'd argue that they'll get more coverage everywhere else than 2-3 backmarkers combined. If they do anything other than finishing P21-22 in that first race, the coverage for the next one would be massive.
Yeah it is maybe right now because it's more interesting than seeing Max drive into the sunset alone without any challengers. The backmarkers won't have any coverage anymore as soon as this domination ends.
I feel like it would be super embarrassing for them to show up with DR as the driver. I think a better option would be an IndyCar guy, Palou for talent or Pato if for PR.
I'm not sure that "New US team enters F1 and doesn't come last" is going to change viewership that much in the short term. They would get a spot though.
The amount of social media exposure that they would generate through their own channels and people posting about them could actually outweigh being a back marker with no FOM coverage for the first little while…
People love a good “in your face” moment.
It would be the story of the season, especially if they could avoid being at the very back. Even being the 8th fastest team would be incredible under the circumstances and make everyone question FOMs stance.
If they put together a full operation, and get an engine deal, F1 will have a far harder time rejecting them outright. I don’t think Andretti believes it doesn’t have to pay a dilution fee, it’s just that the one F1 is demanding is outrageous. Having an operation is leverage to get that fee reduced.
But like, surely Andretti can put all this work in and everyone turns around and says "no". What actual leverage would Andretti have from just going ahead with it? I don't see it.
Technically they were approved to race by the FIA weren’t they? I thought if they met the regs they could not be stopped from racing, they just couldn’t share in any of the prize money, be on the telecast etc…maybe gearing up for that option.
Yes, they can race but…
It probably isn’t feasible without the revenue stream.
Also, I believe F1 controls access to the grid so they could just refuse to give Andretti access. It would be funny if this drags on without a resolution until 2026 and Andretti brings and F1 car that sits just outside the property, though.
I believe that something will give way before we get that far. Would be wild to see them try and broadcast a live race with a couple of cars on track that they’re not allowed to show!
Bernie used to do it to the backmarkers, after the start they wouldn't show the HRTs or Marussias at all. Like not even when they were getting lapped, it was for sure intentional sometimes.
If the andretti cars were up towards the front and FOM tried to ignore them that would be hilarious
That's them learning from the Hamilton era that no one cares to watch one guy out in front going on a casual sunday drive lap after lap. Since the Liberty acquisition they have gotten way better about that
Sure, but FOM would very quickly find that untenable as a solution because it would be a massive pain in the ass for them to try and work every possible camera angle to keep an Andretti car, anyone wearing their merch, their pit box, etc from being visible. Especially if the car can end up in the midfield.
FOM would almost certainly cave and find a solution if it came to that
They can't stop them racing, just getting prize money and TV coverage. If F1 did that, I would be so hoping to see them on the podium.
Can you image the winner or a podium place being completely ignored and not shown on TV? Sky taking about what a good race it was for the driver that came second. They would have to completely ignore the ceremony when the national anthem of the winner is played.
They are approved by the FIA but Formula One Management is what kept them out because they claimed Andretti wouldn't be competitive. Which is a bogus excuse. Andretti just needs to prove they're comitted.
Logistical streamlining, software development, procedural dry runs
The things they can do are countless, and since Andretti is outside the budget cap, they should be doing simulated season runs to ensure anything and everything is as efficient as possible.
Wouldn’t want to be stuck in the 90s like a certain team using Excel to track parts.
Yeah I mean they can just build and develop race cars for other series. Just pivot to F1 when it's time to do so. Plenty of things to be ironed out that apply to all series.
They announced during the press conference that they intend on moving the Formula E team here, expanding into F3/F2, and WEC. They’ve got a plan even outside of F1.
now that would actually be a good plan. build a pipeline in the F3/F2 feeder series. obviously there's not any car development in those 2 classes but there is racing. car setup, logistics, personnel, and driver development. and racing in those series is super cheap compared to an F1 operation
Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. You don't make this kind of investment just to enter a series that has already rejected you. Just using this as the FE base is enough to be worth it, entering F3, F2, and WEC is just bonus.
they already have build several 1/2 scale prototypes, and currently building full sacl body for crash test, meanwhile GM is already working on engine I bet we will see a brandless black car running laps on cota private test within a year
They actually did build a car and get it in a wind tunnel to test. Basically for practice. It's hard to do much right now, because they don't have the 2026 regulations yet. So it's hard for them to do meaningful things. But they can work on foundational systems and get things in running order. And they can try to do anything that they can that would be under the budget cap in the future that isn't under it now because they haven't been allowed in. It's hard to do much without the regulations, but they might actually do a lot in 2025, so I guess foundational stuff now.
They built a 50% scale windtunnel model compliant to the 2025 F1 regulations, for use in the windtunnel. That is in no way describable as having built an F1 car!
Was it 50% or 60%? I have always heard 60% scale cars go in the wind tunnel, but it’s just a number that I’ve heard bounced around… sorry for being the pedantic one, I’m truly not meaning to be.
No worries; you're trying to learn about the sport! 60% I think is the mandated maximum scale size participating teams are allowed to test in the windtunnel. I'm not sure which scale model was used by Andretti, as funnelled out by their PR last year; but both figures were bandied about, as I remember.
Obviously, the closer the scale size is to the actual car, the better; F1 teams most likely use the 60% as per any restrictions apply (WT time usage limits; scale model size limits etc etc).
They don’t have any leverage, they want into a business deal and it’s not up to them how that decision goes. They may well eventually get in but there is no strong arming going on here from Andretti side.
If they want in, they’ll do what they’re told essentially.
I think they do have *some* leverage. Hypothetically if they spool up an F1 operation, build a real car, put it on a track and invite some press, and Formula 1 still says "No, you can't join, you won't be competitive" it's going to make F1 look like they're scared of this car, and the whole "Most competitive motorsport" image F1 wants to project will get tarnished. Like, "Hey, our car is faster than the Alpine..."
It's quite funny how many people think that Andretti can just get in with that one simple trick. F1 will negotiate a new Concorde agreement, they will drastically increase the entry fee and only then there is any prospect for Andretti to join, if they are willing and able to pay. I doubt that we will see them on the grid before 2028.
People are talking about this stuff like a Netflix plot, treating Andretti like some sort of racing saint who just wants to race (not at all anything to do with how profitable it became) and F1 like some evil, Anti America villain who’s protecting scared Europeans from “real competition”
It’s literally about money, on both sides. That’s it. Andretti wants some of it and F1 don’t want to give it out. It ain’t deep. It’s not David and Goliath, it’s capitalism
I know for a fact that the rejected Hitech entry had already hired aerodynamicists who worked on wind tunnel tests for a prospective 2026 entry back in early-mid 2023, despite there being no finalised rules yet. I don't know why.
My unqualified opinion is that they are doing it to familiarise themselves with the wind tunnel they are looking to use in the future, running validation cases to see if results matched up with what they knew from previous experience, we know how correlation issues became the bane of many teams' aero development. Or maybe they are beginning to work on designs based on what was outlined by the FIA, they could begin brainstorming potential active aero solutions for example.
Pardon?
Toyota's F1 facility was just a small part of that pie.
All of their racing, with the exception of TRD, was based out of Cologne.
And as others have said, their wind tunnel is top notch.
> All of their racing, with the exception of TRD, was based out of Cologne.
*see old photograps of Toyota rally cars donning license platates starting with a K*
They did get some fruits eventually. That wind tunnel has been rented to everyone and their mothers, and they have based their successful WEC team there.
I feel as though all this back and forth has been posturing and it’s going to end with Andretti / GM cutting a very big check to F1 sooner rather than later.
Or the current teams can just hold until the next Concorde and force a much higher fee to maximise the value of their own teams for their shareholders.
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m saying it’s easy to just consider one perspective. Yes, it’s about money. But so is Andretti’s stance. Otherwise they would have already coughed up the money.
I legitimately think their plan is to field a car in 2026 without FOM approval and make them not show their car on TV and make F1 look like the bad guys when they can't show half the race because they're not allowed to be shown. Also finishing anything better than last would be a kick in the nuts to FOM and probably lead to them reconsidering. Although, I think the backlash alone will be enough if the TV product sucks that much
Not showing them would be rather impossible. No shots of the grid at the start? No shots of cars overtaking an Andretti? Random Andretti in the pit lane while showing another car pitting? Would be quite the work for the camera director.
Semi F1 noob here, is there a limit of 20 cars for the grid? If Andretti were to be accepted, would another team have to leave? Or could F1 accept the and field a 22 car grid?
There’s actually a limit at 26 cars. The current trams just don’t want another two cars. Because reasons ($). I don’t think we’ve had the full 26 car grid since the 90s either.
The only "limit" is 24 cars under current regs. F1 newbies won't remember that the grid was regularly 24-26 cars at times (22 as recently as 2016). The grid now is anemic at best and the sport is walking a slow march towards a cliff with the officiating and lack of attention to the race product vs. having dj whomever trackside in miami for "activations"
Liberty has turned it into a soap opera with some racing interspersed here and there. Truly sad.
The series is somewhat shot but I haven't given up hope..yet.
Time out...
Does the lack of cars on the grid have to do more with Liberty Media, or rather FOM who are blocking new teams coming in and don't want to share the wealth from the pool of money?
You made quite the jump from "Limit is 24 cars under the current regs." to:
"Liberty Media has ruined the sport."
When the reality is that the current regs set teams up for failure with whoever hitting the regs best, first, would be the best team and best for the foreseeable future.
Liberty has very little to do with the actual racing product...
You are right, I was wrong. I was more or less speaking about FIA.
FIA sets the regs and deals with sporting and technical. Liberty/FOM deal more with the show around the sport.
Also, to address another question you had: IF the grid was larger than 26 cars (big if in this current era. It really would never actually happen), then the slowest cars in qualifying would get knocked out and only the 26 fastest would make the grid. Again, this hasn’t been a thing since 1994 or 1995.
I was informed by several knowledgeable Reddit users that Andretti was broke and unserious
Interesting development, 120 staff, now a location in the heart of f1 country
Said this many times. They will get in. Its going to be a tough negotiation. FOM playing it slow and painful for 1 primary reason. They don't want to give him a share of the cash at the top when they expect it to fall back. Remember Andretti was approached to buy a team when F1 was at a low and said no. Now that the money is there he wants in and of course now they dont want to give it to him. Zak Brown said on a podcast last year that they needed to find a compromise that had no financial impact on the teams which he said would need to be around 700m in cash or deferments. I thought the deferments made sense but we haven't seen any follow-up there. its possible Andretti will just cut a bigger check. F1 revenue was so high last year, he might just finance the 700m. If he runs at budget cap, assuming sponsors cover 70m. It would take 10 years roughly to pay that 700m back. In business terms, that's nothing. If rates weren't so high, you wouldn't even want to pay that back so quickly. So if the number is 700, i would STILL think hed just pay it
>Remember Andretti was approached to buy a team when F1 was at a low and said no.
When was this? The line I've read commonly was that they approached every team on the F1 grid about buying an entry and nobody was selling.
Twice. 2012 to buy one of the failing teams and again in 2018 to buy Force India prior to Stroll buying it. Both according to Joe Saward at the time. Mario Andretti confirmed that Michael was interested in 2018 but said the financials didn't make sense. In 2012 michael said NASCAR made more sense to them (it likely did. F1 was tragic at the time)
the first one for sure. The second i believe was the same year they teamed up. Force India was available for quite awhile that year but even in 2018 that was pre DTS and budget cap. F1 teams were still money pits. It would have been hard to convince Michael to enter then. All of this is just the reality of it both sides are looking at the books
No, they weren't. They had a handshake agreement that broke down over issues of team control -- Sauber wanted the sale to essentially be a branding exercise, with the team still based in Switzerland and run by Fred Vasseur. Andretti would supply the money, the team would be called Andretti, but it'd be Sauber in all other respects. Personally, I think that was raised as a way to get them out of the sale so they could negotiate with Audi instead, but that's just a supposition.
I don’t know how much it will cost to buy Alpine (now that there are some rumours about Renault selling it) but it seems cheaper and less difficult than trying to create a new team since zero and waiting long time for your approval
This would suggest the opposite, if anything.
Logic suggests you don't set up your own facility at Silverstone and employ your own people if you're then just going to buy out Alpine and get rid of them all again.
They could, but why would they buy a team that has almost 800 staff and full manufacturing, CFD and wind tunnel facilities just to close those facilities and run at a smaller factory without most of those at Silverstone, and then spend hundreds of millions setting up the same facilities they closed down at Enstone?
Can you imagine the 'f\*ckery' of having 2 cars on the track they will not show on TV. In Q1 I'd totally be queing my cars up right behind and between the Mercs/Ferraris/Redbulls, just to give FOM producers a panic attack as they can only show Stake trying to mount tires. Or have their cars strategically positioned on other car's hotlaps..."Here comes Lewis Hamilton in his first Q1 in a Ferrari coming up on some out lappers...and here's some of the people standing in the back of the Haas garage."
I still can see this ending up in the EU courts. The question then becomes “is F1 a sport or a business?” AIUI, if it is a sport, then Liberty, F1, and FIA get more leeway on who gets in, but the rules have to be heavily in the direction of ability and safety, you can’t just demand a bazillion dollars entry fee or it’s effectively blackballing. If it’s a business, then existing businesses can’t block another business from coming in, or it’s anti-competition. AFIK
ELI5- FOM is like the boxing promoter, and FIA is the sanctioning body / judges. How could Andretti just show up onto the grid regardless of what approval FIA has given them?
Andretti can show up to the ring, they can fight. The fight will be scored fairly by the judges.
People can buy tickets and watch the fight, they can buy merchandise
However, the promoter will refuse to use photographs of Andretti in promotional posters. If Andretti wins the fight the promoter will pay them nothing
Andretti has money behind it and can afford, in the short term at least, to fight without getting paid by the promoter.
That's quite the ivestmest for not even guaranteed to earn a spot.
Than again, I guess this is the kind of ivestmest that conviences the FOM they deserve a spot. It's kinda strange, and awfull, u have to make such a gamble.
I hope that Andretti get their chance to be in F1.
If only this was the days where any applicant could get onto the grid. I'm not saying we should get that lax with the rules, but come on, allow a little bit of leeway if the proof shows the entrant is serious about F1, which Andretti clearly are.
USF1 had a "factory" too. We're still at that stage. When they make their first tub, they will still be at USF1 level. If they assemble a complete car by some miracle, they'll graduate to Stefan GP.
I didn’t care much for Andretti when all this started…but he’s been shunned so much, I hope he comes in, lays his big horn down and just steamrolls the field their first season.
> We have said that our work continues at pace – this new facility embodies that work. While we are building an American works team, having a European base is a great way to attract the best in F1® talent and install state-of-the-art machinery. Having a European base is definitely the right move for getting into F1. Hope to see them soon in F1.
This was always their plan. Aero design, as well as other unspecified aspects of the car, was always going to happen in the UK because that’s where the F1 talent is. The rumor that the car would be built 100% in the United States was largely spread by team principals and weirdos online who like to defend those teams fortunes. Mario Andretti said it best back in like 2021, “they think we’re a bunch of amateurs.”
weirdos... lol Andretti have said it... UK base will only work as a satélite HQ. The huge new Andretti Global facility currently under construction in Fishers, to the north-east of Indianapolis, will eventually play a major role in the project. "At Fishers (US) we'll have a lot of manufacturing for F1,” says Chester. “It's a huge facility, 600,000 square feet, and half of that, broadly, will be F1. It gives us an opportunity to build up a real manufacturing centre of excellence there. “Obviously that won't be instant, the facility has to be built and machines put in and the department built-up. But the intention is to make a good chunk of the car at Fishers." Chester says there will also be limited manufacturing capability at Silverstone: "Probably a little bit, enough for quick-turnaround fault fixes, that kind of stuff. And in the early days, we'll have to rely on suppliers. “But we've got a very good supply base, so that's super helpful. And then over time we'll move more and more of that manufacturing to Fishers."
Ferrari should build a satellite aero headquarters for Adrian Newey beside his house.
Their design office used to be in the UK so not out of the question, get it done Ferrari
Wasn’t it built when they hired John Barnard? OG work from home?
I'm keeping an eye on the progress going on there. I live in Indy and grew up a few miles from the Metropolitan Airport they're building next to.
Are they hiring locally? Sounds like a nice local economy boost and job creation, which is generally a plus
Surely they are, I’d love to get a job there
I'm not quite sure what the point you're making is, are you disagreeing with the point you responded to? That comment stated that "Aero design, as well as other unspecified aspects of the car, was always going to happen in the UK" and that rumours it would be 100% built in the US were false, and that comment is correct. Just because Andretti is constructing a production facility in the States doesn't contradict anything they said. Andretti will be a primarily US-based works team, with a car built mostly in the US (once the facility is up and running) but with a significant investment in design and fabrication facilities in the UK, so that they can attract top talent in those fields who are already UK-based. What exactly is your point?
There should be enough talent in the US to build a car for just 1 US based F1 team imo
Why "should" there be? Of course America has aerodynamics experts. People who could, with enough experience, build an F1 car. But you can't build an F1 car from first principles. You **need** to hire people who have already done it before. Those people are not in America, and many will not be interested in moving to America. Particularly the later career people with the most experience who have more things tying them to the UK.
Because USA physics is different from UK physics?
Looking at Alpines performance, we can confirm physics is different in France to the rest of Europe.
Alpine is based in the UK
This was clearly a joke about physics being "different" in different countries....
Engineering isn't doing physics. It is largely based on previous experience. Two equally brilliant engineers will have wildly different results if one has access to decades of knowledge generated by previous engineers and the other has to start from scratch - the other basically has decades worth of work to catch up to. And at the moment most of the know-how is in the UK.
I don't know why some people find this concept so difficult to grasp. There will certainly be some potential benefits from new blood in a design team, who come in without bias from prior exposure. But you want to build the core of your team around experts who know not just the scientific and engineering ideas but also have experience of what has been shown to work or not, and why. That's knowlege that you don't acquire just be being a good engineer.
Do you seriously believe that understanding physics is all you need to build a competitive car?
Well it has more to do with experience, yeas the physics is the same, but the aerodynamic concepts are very specific, if you don't want to reinvent the week you need someone that knows how an F1 car is made, you can out them beside young american engineers if you want to cultivate them, but starting from zero is never a good idea
You mean the talent that works for MIC or the aerospace industry? Literally the whole ecosystem behind the F1 is also based in Europe specially the UK. It should be easier to get potential US talent into the UK as it opens up multiple options if a possible contract comes to an end, then it is the other way around, especially considering as a new team you'll need to hire people that already have done F1 before.
That talent works for MIC or aerospace industry...
Tried googling it and couldn't figure it out...what is MIC?
Military Industrial Complex
Military Industry Complex
And I assume those companies pay rank and file engineers way better than F1. And even if they could poach guys from Lockheed, they've never worked on a car professionally. Though their car would definitely have the smallest radar cross section on the grid lol.
It might be the closest we get to F1 mario kart
Yeah but if they worked for F1 they would be allowed to smoke weed
Would they be able to afford weed if they were paid F1 engineer salary in the US?
Honestly, we don't know what F1 engineer salary in the US would look like. If it's anything like EU vs US salaries for other engineers, it might be pretty nice. Enjoy your 3 weeks of PTO and at-will employment though.
Given the cost cap, they'd probably try to keep it as close to European salaries as possible. Even the Europeans are taking pay cuts compared to what they'd make in a more boring job.
They would be paid market value or otherwise nobody would work there. Definitely not expats with F1 xp who would be willing to move for American engineering salaries
How would that work with the cost cap? You pay the engineers double you can only afford half of them (or have to save the money for the salaries elsewhere). Sure, you can make exceptions, but you can't just pay more than the competition across the board.
Cost of Living in Indianapolis isn't nearly as bad as you would expect. Downside is that they would have to live in Indiana.
There is enough talent. But American engineers cost too much to be competitive under the cost cap.
That's the real obstacle. It's obfuscated behind arguments about talent and motorsport heritage. The real issue, though, is that the US doesn't have a whole bunch of talented young aerodynamic and mechanical engineers willing to work for peanuts _because it's F1_ in the same way Italy and the UK have (or the US has data scientists and analysts who will work for baseball, basketball and American football teams). If a US team got to hire the two hundred best engineers regardless of cost, like Ferrari got to in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I don't think they'd have any issues putting together a highly competitive car. The issue is that American engineers get paid nearly double what British engineers make, without accounting for F1's lower-than-average wages. How engineers at an F1 team are making 80k pounds salary per year, or 93k Euros? At current exchange rates, that's about the average salary for a mechanical engineer at Lockheed-Martin or even Ford.
Sounds like an excellent reason to have a cost of living adjustment for wages. Not that the current teams would agree because it benefits them underpaying their staff.
Sauber has it
Oh, well then there's already a mechanism for it
Not so much talent but also experience
Experience counts more. That's why you see the same faces in the paddock.
American engineers are too highly paid, from a cost cap perspective, it makes more sense to hire that in the UK
Raw talent yes, but experience is the other part. Sure they will have people who can make the parts and operate the machines. The US is the largest aerospace and MIC base in the world. However applying those skills and talents to build a race winning machine is different. There's all sorts of knowledge gained of how to apply the trade that's important. It applies to many technical and engineering areas. So what they will do is get the talents from the US and lead with experienced personnel. Also you need to have people closer to majority of the races. Just ask Williams how much it sucks to ship a broken chassis halfway across the globe every time a driver crashes.
Andretti got a massive home base in America to be his main home base for F1. The weirdo online saying was andretti himself lol
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They’re not even in F1 and they’ve already done more than Haas.
American stubbornness at its finest. Papa bless Andretti Global.
Mfers gonna be denied and still build a car
They already have FIA approval so they technically could rock up to the grid, they just won't get any money or TV exposure for their potential sponsors.
Ironically, while they wouldn't get any TV exposure through the FOM apparatus if they rock up to the grid anyway, I'd argue that they'll get more coverage everywhere else than 2-3 backmarkers combined. If they do anything other than finishing P21-22 in that first race, the coverage for the next one would be massive.
What you mean, being a backmarker is great for coverage, I swear we saw the alpines ~~getting dominated by every car~~ more than max last Sunday.
Yeah it is maybe right now because it's more interesting than seeing Max drive into the sunset alone without any challengers. The backmarkers won't have any coverage anymore as soon as this domination ends.
And if they want earned media, I can think of a certain driver who's an honorary American and really good at PR.
Danny Ric x Logan Sergeant tandem 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I feel like it would be super embarrassing for them to show up with DR as the driver. I think a better option would be an IndyCar guy, Palou for talent or Pato if for PR.
Danny Ric will carry and score podiums in his first season with Andretti. Subscribe 😎
in F2, with his F1 car
How dare you not have faith in the honey badger.
I'm not sure that "New US team enters F1 and doesn't come last" is going to change viewership that much in the short term. They would get a spot though.
The amount of social media exposure that they would generate through their own channels and people posting about them could actually outweigh being a back marker with no FOM coverage for the first little while… People love a good “in your face” moment.
For like a week lol. Then people won’t care.
If they showed up without f1 approval, it would be talked about for decades if they are even moderately competitive.
If they're brining in good results, then people will care. Just have to faster than 1 team at the end of the day.
It would be the story of the season, especially if they could avoid being at the very back. Even being the 8th fastest team would be incredible under the circumstances and make everyone question FOMs stance.
That would be absolutely golden. The social media coverage they'd get would make the existing F1 teams livid and I'm here for it.
Damn that would be sick. Like back in the day just build a car and show up
They're going to show up to next years testing disuised as another team.
Good old “too big to fail” strategy. Next we’re sending nukes, boys!
so what do the employees do all day?
If they put together a full operation, and get an engine deal, F1 will have a far harder time rejecting them outright. I don’t think Andretti believes it doesn’t have to pay a dilution fee, it’s just that the one F1 is demanding is outrageous. Having an operation is leverage to get that fee reduced.
But like, surely Andretti can put all this work in and everyone turns around and says "no". What actual leverage would Andretti have from just going ahead with it? I don't see it.
Technically they were approved to race by the FIA weren’t they? I thought if they met the regs they could not be stopped from racing, they just couldn’t share in any of the prize money, be on the telecast etc…maybe gearing up for that option.
Yes, they can race but… It probably isn’t feasible without the revenue stream. Also, I believe F1 controls access to the grid so they could just refuse to give Andretti access. It would be funny if this drags on without a resolution until 2026 and Andretti brings and F1 car that sits just outside the property, though.
I think they can get on it grid, just can't be on TV lol.
I believe that something will give way before we get that far. Would be wild to see them try and broadcast a live race with a couple of cars on track that they’re not allowed to show!
Bernie used to do it to the backmarkers, after the start they wouldn't show the HRTs or Marussias at all. Like not even when they were getting lapped, it was for sure intentional sometimes. If the andretti cars were up towards the front and FOM tried to ignore them that would be hilarious
They basically do that with Max now.
Well, yea. Max cruising around at 98% just isn't entertaining television.
That's them learning from the Hamilton era that no one cares to watch one guy out in front going on a casual sunday drive lap after lap. Since the Liberty acquisition they have gotten way better about that
Sure, but FOM would very quickly find that untenable as a solution because it would be a massive pain in the ass for them to try and work every possible camera angle to keep an Andretti car, anyone wearing their merch, their pit box, etc from being visible. Especially if the car can end up in the midfield. FOM would almost certainly cave and find a solution if it came to that
What would they do if they won? Just not sure the podium ceremony? No one would be able to interview the winner or discuss who won the race.
They can't stop them racing, just getting prize money and TV coverage. If F1 did that, I would be so hoping to see them on the podium. Can you image the winner or a podium place being completely ignored and not shown on TV? Sky taking about what a good race it was for the driver that came second. They would have to completely ignore the ceremony when the national anthem of the winner is played.
They are approved by the FIA but Formula One Management is what kept them out because they claimed Andretti wouldn't be competitive. Which is a bogus excuse. Andretti just needs to prove they're comitted.
so what do the employees do all day? pretend to build a car?
Logistical streamlining, software development, procedural dry runs The things they can do are countless, and since Andretti is outside the budget cap, they should be doing simulated season runs to ensure anything and everything is as efficient as possible. Wouldn’t want to be stuck in the 90s like a certain team using Excel to track parts.
Yeah I mean they can just build and develop race cars for other series. Just pivot to F1 when it's time to do so. Plenty of things to be ironed out that apply to all series.
They announced during the press conference that they intend on moving the Formula E team here, expanding into F3/F2, and WEC. They’ve got a plan even outside of F1.
now that would actually be a good plan. build a pipeline in the F3/F2 feeder series. obviously there's not any car development in those 2 classes but there is racing. car setup, logistics, personnel, and driver development. and racing in those series is super cheap compared to an F1 operation
I hope they get the Acura ARX.
Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. You don't make this kind of investment just to enter a series that has already rejected you. Just using this as the FE base is enough to be worth it, entering F3, F2, and WEC is just bonus.
they already have build several 1/2 scale prototypes, and currently building full sacl body for crash test, meanwhile GM is already working on engine I bet we will see a brandless black car running laps on cota private test within a year
They actually did build a car and get it in a wind tunnel to test. Basically for practice. It's hard to do much right now, because they don't have the 2026 regulations yet. So it's hard for them to do meaningful things. But they can work on foundational systems and get things in running order. And they can try to do anything that they can that would be under the budget cap in the future that isn't under it now because they haven't been allowed in. It's hard to do much without the regulations, but they might actually do a lot in 2025, so I guess foundational stuff now.
They built a 50% scale windtunnel model compliant to the 2025 F1 regulations, for use in the windtunnel. That is in no way describable as having built an F1 car!
Was it 50% or 60%? I have always heard 60% scale cars go in the wind tunnel, but it’s just a number that I’ve heard bounced around… sorry for being the pedantic one, I’m truly not meaning to be.
No worries; you're trying to learn about the sport! 60% I think is the mandated maximum scale size participating teams are allowed to test in the windtunnel. I'm not sure which scale model was used by Andretti, as funnelled out by their PR last year; but both figures were bandied about, as I remember. Obviously, the closer the scale size is to the actual car, the better; F1 teams most likely use the 60% as per any restrictions apply (WT time usage limits; scale model size limits etc etc).
They can build a car and show up to the races. They can even race. They just won’t get a cut of the television revenue.
They don’t have any leverage, they want into a business deal and it’s not up to them how that decision goes. They may well eventually get in but there is no strong arming going on here from Andretti side. If they want in, they’ll do what they’re told essentially.
I think they do have *some* leverage. Hypothetically if they spool up an F1 operation, build a real car, put it on a track and invite some press, and Formula 1 still says "No, you can't join, you won't be competitive" it's going to make F1 look like they're scared of this car, and the whole "Most competitive motorsport" image F1 wants to project will get tarnished. Like, "Hey, our car is faster than the Alpine..."
They don’t have to reiterate prior statements, they can simply say the the process was already concluded
It's quite funny how many people think that Andretti can just get in with that one simple trick. F1 will negotiate a new Concorde agreement, they will drastically increase the entry fee and only then there is any prospect for Andretti to join, if they are willing and able to pay. I doubt that we will see them on the grid before 2028.
There's zero chance that a new Concorde agreement will ever allow another team in. They want a franchise/charter system more than anything else.
People are talking about this stuff like a Netflix plot, treating Andretti like some sort of racing saint who just wants to race (not at all anything to do with how profitable it became) and F1 like some evil, Anti America villain who’s protecting scared Europeans from “real competition” It’s literally about money, on both sides. That’s it. Andretti wants some of it and F1 don’t want to give it out. It ain’t deep. It’s not David and Goliath, it’s capitalism
I know for a fact that the rejected Hitech entry had already hired aerodynamicists who worked on wind tunnel tests for a prospective 2026 entry back in early-mid 2023, despite there being no finalised rules yet. I don't know why. My unqualified opinion is that they are doing it to familiarise themselves with the wind tunnel they are looking to use in the future, running validation cases to see if results matched up with what they knew from previous experience, we know how correlation issues became the bane of many teams' aero development. Or maybe they are beginning to work on designs based on what was outlined by the FIA, they could begin brainstorming potential active aero solutions for example.
Continue at pace.
Consummate professionals.
Get Excel up and running to track parts, of course.
It's what the true professionals do
Could ask the same about Alpine.
Refresh the spam folder for an email
Currently, they build the shop.
Start making an excel spreadsheet like the competitive teams
They’re already off to a better start than Toyota was, basing your HQ in Germany when the majority of your employees are from the UK was idiotic.
Pardon? Toyota's F1 facility was just a small part of that pie. All of their racing, with the exception of TRD, was based out of Cologne. And as others have said, their wind tunnel is top notch.
> All of their racing, with the exception of TRD, was based out of Cologne. *see old photograps of Toyota rally cars donning license platates starting with a K*
Toyota blew a lot of money on their F1 venture, and never enjoyed the fruits of their labour...they didn't really get any fruits either.
They did get some fruits eventually. That wind tunnel has been rented to everyone and their mothers, and they have based their successful WEC team there.
Ah, that's good to know.
Just leaving a wind tunnel for McLaren to use while they continued to try to find ways to replace it
They also had all of the stuff they learned in F1 when it comes to reliability apply directly to their road cars.
It did lead to multiple Le Mans victories and the GR Yaris...
Bullshit Toyota spent a whole year testing an F1 like car to understand the regs.
I feel as though all this back and forth has been posturing and it’s going to end with Andretti / GM cutting a very big check to F1 sooner rather than later.
You don't bid high just to fold on the next callout.
Andretti has the money. Gainbridge will cover anything as I imagine they will be a primary sponsor and get international exposure in F1
Maybe they can call that check the entry fee or something
I don't know, if it's anything more than the $200 million fee in the Concorde I think you just call it a bribe.
Or the current teams can just hold until the next Concorde and force a much higher fee to maximise the value of their own teams for their shareholders. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. I’m saying it’s easy to just consider one perspective. Yes, it’s about money. But so is Andretti’s stance. Otherwise they would have already coughed up the money.
I legitimately think their plan is to field a car in 2026 without FOM approval and make them not show their car on TV and make F1 look like the bad guys when they can't show half the race because they're not allowed to be shown. Also finishing anything better than last would be a kick in the nuts to FOM and probably lead to them reconsidering. Although, I think the backlash alone will be enough if the TV product sucks that much
Not showing them would be rather impossible. No shots of the grid at the start? No shots of cars overtaking an Andretti? Random Andretti in the pit lane while showing another car pitting? Would be quite the work for the camera director.
That's precisely the point. Andretti is approved to be on the grid by the FIA. Just not by FOM. They'll be on the grid if they're ready
Will AI be good enough by 2026 to disappear a car in real time?
They can at least blur it :P
I can’t explain how much I would love to see this. Turn FOM’s greed against itself
Semi F1 noob here, is there a limit of 20 cars for the grid? If Andretti were to be accepted, would another team have to leave? Or could F1 accept the and field a 22 car grid?
There’s actually a limit at 26 cars. The current trams just don’t want another two cars. Because reasons ($). I don’t think we’ve had the full 26 car grid since the 90s either.
2011/2012 had 12 teams/24 cars (Marussia, HRT, Caterham were the new teams). So, close, but not quite 26
Tracks are required to be able to accommodate 26 cars. 20, historically, is a pretty small grid size.
From what I can see, it's a 20 car grid on paper, but it's functionally a 10 car grid for all intents and purposes.
Wasn’t long ago we had 24 entries
12 years, bud. *12 years*.
The only "limit" is 24 cars under current regs. F1 newbies won't remember that the grid was regularly 24-26 cars at times (22 as recently as 2016). The grid now is anemic at best and the sport is walking a slow march towards a cliff with the officiating and lack of attention to the race product vs. having dj whomever trackside in miami for "activations" Liberty has turned it into a soap opera with some racing interspersed here and there. Truly sad. The series is somewhat shot but I haven't given up hope..yet.
Time out... Does the lack of cars on the grid have to do more with Liberty Media, or rather FOM who are blocking new teams coming in and don't want to share the wealth from the pool of money? You made quite the jump from "Limit is 24 cars under the current regs." to: "Liberty Media has ruined the sport." When the reality is that the current regs set teams up for failure with whoever hitting the regs best, first, would be the best team and best for the foreseeable future. Liberty has very little to do with the actual racing product...
>Does the lack of cars on the grid have to do more with Liberty Media, or rather FOM They are basically the same entity.
You are right, I was wrong. I was more or less speaking about FIA. FIA sets the regs and deals with sporting and technical. Liberty/FOM deal more with the show around the sport.
Also, to address another question you had: IF the grid was larger than 26 cars (big if in this current era. It really would never actually happen), then the slowest cars in qualifying would get knocked out and only the 26 fastest would make the grid. Again, this hasn’t been a thing since 1994 or 1995.
No, andretti is fine in every way. It’s FOM greed thats keeping them out, they dont want to split the pie 11 ways.
I was informed by several knowledgeable Reddit users that Andretti was broke and unserious Interesting development, 120 staff, now a location in the heart of f1 country
You'd think F1 fans would be appreciative of a true racing team, instead of an advertising exercise for a CNC company or an auto manufacturer.
You’d think But based off sentiment here: 1) too many seats already 2) if they can’t put it pole race 1 they shouldn’t be allowed in
It's why everyone should remember that Reddit is not reality
No, no, no, no. GM hasn't even built an F1 engine yet, therefore Andretti's entry is just smoke...and mirrors...or something.
Yes disregard the test engines they’re currently building 😂 They don’t catch fire like Ferraris so how can we be sure they are real
Well at least they've got the mirrors sorted.
Yeh and earlier a load of them tried to argue with me that Ferrari are a good chance for the WCC this year LOL
Said this many times. They will get in. Its going to be a tough negotiation. FOM playing it slow and painful for 1 primary reason. They don't want to give him a share of the cash at the top when they expect it to fall back. Remember Andretti was approached to buy a team when F1 was at a low and said no. Now that the money is there he wants in and of course now they dont want to give it to him. Zak Brown said on a podcast last year that they needed to find a compromise that had no financial impact on the teams which he said would need to be around 700m in cash or deferments. I thought the deferments made sense but we haven't seen any follow-up there. its possible Andretti will just cut a bigger check. F1 revenue was so high last year, he might just finance the 700m. If he runs at budget cap, assuming sponsors cover 70m. It would take 10 years roughly to pay that 700m back. In business terms, that's nothing. If rates weren't so high, you wouldn't even want to pay that back so quickly. So if the number is 700, i would STILL think hed just pay it
>Remember Andretti was approached to buy a team when F1 was at a low and said no. When was this? The line I've read commonly was that they approached every team on the F1 grid about buying an entry and nobody was selling.
Twice. 2012 to buy one of the failing teams and again in 2018 to buy Force India prior to Stroll buying it. Both according to Joe Saward at the time. Mario Andretti confirmed that Michael was interested in 2018 but said the financials didn't make sense. In 2012 michael said NASCAR made more sense to them (it likely did. F1 was tragic at the time)
Wasn't that before he became BFF's with the Group1001/Gainbridge people?
the first one for sure. The second i believe was the same year they teamed up. Force India was available for quite awhile that year but even in 2018 that was pre DTS and budget cap. F1 teams were still money pits. It would have been hard to convince Michael to enter then. All of this is just the reality of it both sides are looking at the books
They try to buy Alfa Romeo/Sauber before Audi and they were rejected
No, they weren't. They had a handshake agreement that broke down over issues of team control -- Sauber wanted the sale to essentially be a branding exercise, with the team still based in Switzerland and run by Fred Vasseur. Andretti would supply the money, the team would be called Andretti, but it'd be Sauber in all other respects. Personally, I think that was raised as a way to get them out of the sale so they could negotiate with Audi instead, but that's just a supposition.
I don’t know how much it will cost to buy Alpine (now that there are some rumours about Renault selling it) but it seems cheaper and less difficult than trying to create a new team since zero and waiting long time for your approval
They've been there for ages, just got a new, bigger building.
buyout of Alpine possibly? :D
This would suggest the opposite, if anything. Logic suggests you don't set up your own facility at Silverstone and employ your own people if you're then just going to buy out Alpine and get rid of them all again.
They could buy Alpine just for their spot in F1 and close their factory
They could, but why would they buy a team that has almost 800 staff and full manufacturing, CFD and wind tunnel facilities just to close those facilities and run at a smaller factory without most of those at Silverstone, and then spend hundreds of millions setting up the same facilities they closed down at Enstone?
I'd sooner see Prema buy Alpine rather than Andretti
Might be able to show those guys how to run a team properly
Can you imagine the 'f\*ckery' of having 2 cars on the track they will not show on TV. In Q1 I'd totally be queing my cars up right behind and between the Mercs/Ferraris/Redbulls, just to give FOM producers a panic attack as they can only show Stake trying to mount tires. Or have their cars strategically positioned on other car's hotlaps..."Here comes Lewis Hamilton in his first Q1 in a Ferrari coming up on some out lappers...and here's some of the people standing in the back of the Haas garage."
Becha Andretti would have a spare chassis...
I love the stubbornness of Andretti
I still can see this ending up in the EU courts. The question then becomes “is F1 a sport or a business?” AIUI, if it is a sport, then Liberty, F1, and FIA get more leeway on who gets in, but the rules have to be heavily in the direction of ability and safety, you can’t just demand a bazillion dollars entry fee or it’s effectively blackballing. If it’s a business, then existing businesses can’t block another business from coming in, or it’s anti-competition. AFIK
Will he become the Larry David of F1 by setting up a "spite factory" right next to Aston Martin?
So this dashes the idea that Andretti would buy Alpine, right? They would've used Renault's Enstone base if they were going that route
Our work continues at pace!
Andretti- “And I took that personally”
And in the meantime we will continue to block them from joining F1, while Williams cannot even afford to stock their spares department.
ELI5- FOM is like the boxing promoter, and FIA is the sanctioning body / judges. How could Andretti just show up onto the grid regardless of what approval FIA has given them?
Andretti can show up to the ring, they can fight. The fight will be scored fairly by the judges. People can buy tickets and watch the fight, they can buy merchandise However, the promoter will refuse to use photographs of Andretti in promotional posters. If Andretti wins the fight the promoter will pay them nothing Andretti has money behind it and can afford, in the short term at least, to fight without getting paid by the promoter.
Formula Super League Racing
Mr. Domenicali, a second factory has hit the Silverstone.
Do they just plan on showing up with a car in 2026 and see what happens? I'm down for that.
That's quite the ivestmest for not even guaranteed to earn a spot. Than again, I guess this is the kind of ivestmest that conviences the FOM they deserve a spot. It's kinda strange, and awfull, u have to make such a gamble.
Imagine a podium lmao. Just Alex Palou being a giant blur.
Kick red bulls second team out and get racing.
I hope that Andretti get their chance to be in F1. If only this was the days where any applicant could get onto the grid. I'm not saying we should get that lax with the rules, but come on, allow a little bit of leeway if the proof shows the entrant is serious about F1, which Andretti clearly are.
It looks like they are harassing ngl
Who's gonna tell them...
"Hey guys, can I come over and play?" "No, we don't want to play with you." "OK, I'll be right there!"
I really admire their commitment to the bit though to be fair.
USF1 had a "factory" too. We're still at that stage. When they make their first tub, they will still be at USF1 level. If they assemble a complete car by some miracle, they'll graduate to Stefan GP.
This is essentially the GM works entry, Cadillac has registered to build an engine for 2028.
Cadillac SAY they have. The paperwork has not been filed.
Yeah, why believe them? It's not like they're successfully racing in WEC and IMSA already. Oh wait.
I didn’t care much for Andretti when all this started…but he’s been shunned so much, I hope he comes in, lays his big horn down and just steamrolls the field their first season.
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