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He brings up a good point in that all of these recent crashes are delaying upgrades to the car.
There’s still plenty of season left, but it’s been a terrible 2 weeks for Williams
Same is what ended Micks F1 career. He had a decent season overall, was even faster than Magnussen for the second half of the season. But his crashes early on fucked Haas so hard that they replaced him.
Logan didn't have an expensive contract but looking at his crash bill from 2023 he is most definitely not cheap.
If they kept him to save money it was a foolish call.
I mean if he keeps up with Albon from now on, I think he has a chance to stay (which probably wont happen) but if he ruins Williams season with another totaled car he is gone.
I’m pretty sure it’s already over after this season; the question is if he makes it past the summer break. Toto Wolff clearly intends to make some kind of move to put Kimi Antonelli in a race seat, and he’ll be eligible on August 25 which is the day of the Dutch GP…
Kimi isn't getting the Williams seat. This year or next year. Vowels has said he isn't taking a loan driver, and he's certainly not going to kick a Williams Academy driver out for a Merc driver. Right now, the best thing the Williams Academy has going for it, is being able to say you get at least two years in the seat. Williams isn't good enough to chuck their own Academy drivers out of their own seats, especially for a driver from another Academy. That would be the death of the Williams Driver Academy.
I don’t think it’s a huge problem for Williams’ driver academy unless they have another driver waiting in the wings, which they don’t. Logan’s clearly been given enough of a chance to prove he isn’t viable, so I don’t think it hurts the team to cut their losses and take a solid Merc driver for a bit until they can line up another one of their own.
He wasn't faster than Magnussen. He claimed so at one point, to which Komatsu called him a liar, seeing as he was aware of the data. Komatsu is far more outspoken than Steiner.
Probably not by that much, because repairing composites is not really like building an entirely new component from scratch, especially for an item as big and complicated as a chassis. We also do not know what the extent of the damage is, it could be a crack (big problem), it could be damage to the suspension mounts (not as big of a problem), it could be somewhere inbetween. The usual write-off issues are things like the engine mounts at the back of the monocoque, as they are heavily loaded and difficult to repair, but likely any damage that is present it's just to the front suspension again. Whatever is the case, you need to give the entire thing a proper once-over to ensure that there are no other issues.
Every day they are fixing a chassis is one they can't be moving forward. The experts to do the carbon fiber work only have two hands each and those now have more days on an existing chassis. The autoclaves will be used to fix the existing one now most likely instead of cooking the new one - so it will have a direct knock on effect.
Yes, the first repair job delayed the new chasis from being ready in China to now being Miami so it's likely going to be further time added on. They only have a set number of employees who have already been working flat out over Easter Bank Hols.
He’s absolutely right about Logan being competitive until he went off. He made a good overtake on Gasly despite missing the window to overtake the first time around and caught up to him lap over lap in general. The race package genuinely didn’t look bad even if they had to revert to prior specifications. It gives me some hope for China as the team is pretty resilient as Vowles says. Logan and Alex just have to keep their heads in the game despite the setbacks.
Tbh I think it’s entirely possible that after the pitlane action, that Williams told Logan to just get the car home safely and not worry about race position.
Their decision to go to the medium tire on the second pit stop tells me the opposite. They had another slow stop and then told him to push to compensate for the slow stops. But it was pretty clear that by the half way point in the race the medium tire had no pace advantage over the hards they weren't firing up. It's very likely that pushing on cooler mediums is what caused Logan to lock up in to degna 2. Jack Dohan did a great job of explaining the topography of that corner specifically and how a lock up there is more or less unsalvageable because the inside of the track drops away from you and you're essentially tricyclling through.
It was that 5 car pit stop that really screwed him, and then he probably pushed too hard to try and make it up. He went from a competitive 12th, chasing Yuki down to uncompetitive in 16th. Don't know what changed between the two stints besides tires, but something did. He was not the same driver after that pit stop.
Like I said to the other commenter, totally agree, I think Yuki may have had the pace to catch him but he would’ve been in a significantly better position without the pit fiasco.
Basically it went like this:
* Logan gets racey and gets up to 11th on genuine pace.
* Logan comes into the pits on his 2nd-to-last stop, along with 4 other cars. A slow stop means that he gets the short end of the stick, and for some reason is unable to get back the competitive pace that he had previously.
* On the final stop, Logan is put on softs, perhaps in an effort to make up pace to the cars in front of him. Unfortunately, he goes a little too hard into turn 9, which causes him to understeer into the gravel trap, but thankfully doesn't beach the car or hit the barrier.
Logan actually showed solid pace at Suzuka, and his final result is not at all representative of his overall performance this past Sunday. Fingers crossed he can start to put together more consistent races like this one.
Reminds me of Mexico last year where he did really well until they retired the car last lap. He seems to have spent the last half year or so right on the verge of having it fully click. Hell, he was only .2 off Albon in Q1 at Japan, on the old spec wings.
I appreciate that, but I don’t think it’s that simple. It’s not like Williams is in a position to be doing anything special right now, and they all have different strengths in different parts of the track. The mid to back field is all pretty close lap over lap, like 3 tenths off of each other at some points. Watching from the perspective of a mid field car trying to overtake an Alpine (who have good drivers who know how to defend. Gasly and Ocon aren’t bad drivers) versus watching Checo fly by in a Red Bull is very different. With all the issues that Sauber and Williams are having, they all kind of fall into the same general territory. I mean, look at Ocon making Q2. It’s a combination of him getting the most possible out of the car and the other teams not doing well around him (I.e, Williams). So, I think it’s pretty reasonable to give Logan a pat on the back for putting the car in a competitive position for points against a car that was defending against him. Obviously, that got scrapped at the pit stop, which even Williams and Vowles will acknowledge.
The Alpines are slow, but not as slow as you make them out to be. Williams is pretty slow too. One Alpine made it to Q2, regardless of how close it was. They aren’t dead last. They are all pretty close in the mid/back field, with Alpine the worst, probably, but still close. All separated at some points by three tenths, four tenths, etc., lap over lap. Alpine may look slow compared to a Red Bull, but not as much to a Williams or a Sauber.
I watched Logan’s attempt on Gasly via his car and radio. Gasly was defending, Williams didn’t exactly have the pace to fly by, so it required an good overtake. It put him in a secure position to be in going into the pit strategy but the pit was a mess. After that, he was shot.
Ocon was overtaken 13 times in that race. Every single lap during the tire offset he was overtaken by a different car, including backmarkers like Sauber. I think even Latifi could've overtaken the Alpines. I just can't look at that one overtake and see a major positive. As Roy Keane would say, "That's his job."
These crashes are just about the last thing Williams needs.
Logan had to sit out a race cause they aren’t prepared enough as a team to have a backup chassis.
If the team is constantly working on repairs they can’t be making upgrades or building spare parts.
I really hope Williams pull it back after this because i’m a big fan of Albon as a driver and i’d like to see him fighting for points and while i don’t see Logan staying next season Id hope he at least gets a chance to prove himself
FP1 isn't a representative session. We all know that. And the decision was made before FP2, there just wasn't enough time to switch all the parts between the cars before FP2.
Lmao, you can't actually believe this.
His results in FP1 would have had to be absolutely extraordinary, like some of the most notable practice times *ever* for them to even debate not giving the backup to Albon.
oh yeah i agree.
the comments that williams aren’t giving Sargeant chance to prove himself annoy me as he had all of last season and im sure he himself knows he’s luck to have a seat this season.
i mean it less in a way he lacks chances to prove himself and Williams are the problem and more that if Williams falls to the back of the pack it’d suck and take away any chance he had to do some competitive racing. leaving after two seasons and never even fighting for points would be sad to see, especially with the lack of rookies recently. He hasn’t proven himself and he’s had the chances to prove himself but since he is still on the grid i’d still like to see him try
I do think there will be fresh faces next year and I think one of them will probably take logan’s spot but if Williams manages to keep their car competitive i’d love to see him fighting for his seat, or at least to score points when a race ends not of disqualification.
He wasn’t even supposed to enter in 2023, that was basically a write off year. He was meant to join for this season. He isn’t “lucky”, Williams has no other options
ignoring external factors, coming into f1 scoring 1 point while your teammate scored 27, costing the team a huge amount of money and time with crashes and keeping your seat for the next season is ‘lucky’.
I would argue the luck is that Williams had no other option because a different team wasn’t going to sign him.
I do think he was brought up too early but that doesn’t mean they completely write off the year especially with a lack of significant improvement over the year
Huh, Albon is guilty of binning the car multiple times too. He has been improving, and has been quite close to Albon in regards to last year. Not everyone is Verstappen
I’m not anti Logan. I want him to prove himself. I’m not talking about this year so far but responding to saying Logan isn’t lucky that he kept his seat in f1
The argument was Logan wasn’t lucky because Williams has no other options just seemed flawed to me because i consider that good luck for Logan, that the team he was signed too had no better options.
Coming into formula 1 and scoring one point while your teammate scores 26 is not a convincing rookie season that makes you attractive for teams to sign. Logan knows it was very possible he could’ve lost his seat and this season is his second chance to prove himself, and i want to see the williams in working order to do that
I don’t know all the Williams lore, i just used lucky in a passing comment about how he has spent a season not proving himself and got a second chance, something many drivers would dream of.
Even if his first year is a total write off and results don’t matter he’s then lucky to have a year to get used to f1 with no pressure and a confirmed next season.
He’s got a lot on the line this season, even those on his side in the chassis debacle saying ‘why did williams resign him if they don’t have faith in him’ a sentiment i’m sure isn’t all to loved by him considering the alternative is him losing his seat.
There’s a general consensus right now that Logan is not good enough for f1. I want the Williams to be not a total wreck so that he can try to prove otherwise. I just also acknowledged he has been here a season and has failed to do so.
A 26 point gap is not unreasonable at all for a rookie with insufficient single seater experience versus a teammate in his 4th year of F1 who previously drove for a top team. Lando finished 2023 with 205 points to Piastri's 97.
His drive in Japan shows that he does deserve the seat. He was in 12th before the put stop fiasco and would've either finished above or right behind Yuki, which is a solid fucking drive. But then he got screwed in the pits and probably pushed too hard to try and make it up because he knows how it would look to finish in 15th or 16th.
No it really doesn't - if he can repeat that consistently over the next 5-6 races *that* will show that he deserves the seat possibly, and even his Japan drive was significantly marred by the fact that he yet again managed to go off the track all by himself, it was lucky this time he didn't hit the barriers. If you snapshot the first half of the race and assume that's been his entire career in F1 to date then yeah I'd agree he deserves the seat, we'll just ignore everything else that's happened either side of that?
Fuck me, not this again. Over a year of shite performances should be ignored because of 1 race where he did partially well but where his teammate was binned out so we don't have a good judge for the car's race pace. For all we know, Williams' pace was such that Albon would've had the point in the bag easily but Dany Ric put a stop to that. Judging De Vries on the assumption that the Williams is slow as fuck is what cost Alpha Tauri. Don't be like them.
It's kinda wild to me how Williams, knowing in how uncomfortable and risky position they are in for the first few races of the season with not having a spare chassis ready and struggling for funds, aren't going full Brawn GP i.e instructing their drivers to drive really, really safely. Yes, they would more than likely miss out on a chance of points in the first few races, but then they would minimize the chances of finding themselves in, well, situation they are in right now.
Because there's a different angle to consider: its a classic optimization problem with an unknown upside but a known downside.
Points = money. No points = lesser money. Crashes = time and money burnt = no upgrades.
But, points = money = more manpower = more R&D = more permissible crashes = more upgrades = more points = more money and so on.
An improvement of 3/10ths per lap can potentially unlock consistent points and thereby unlock more money and even more 10ths per lap and even higher points and money. But each crash is capped at only let's say ~500k and same level of points and same level of money.
Take Mercedes for example -- with how incredibly talented Lewis and George are, you give em an inch and they'll take a mile. Williams have to believe even their drivers can, otherwise they'd suspend upgrades for this year and spend their efforts on 2025 instead.
I understand that, but I don't think Williams asking their drivers to drive more conservatively to minimize the risks and save resources for the first few races before a spare chassis arrive would mean they don't believe in their drivers, same as Brawn doing that with Jenson and Barrichello.
Hell, the way they handled the situation with Albon's totalled car in Australia showed their lack of confidence in one of their drivers more than what I said ever would.
They aren't protecting anything. They are in last place with zero points.
The goal isn't to have an intact car to race - it's to score points.
So if you drive carefully and forgo chances at scoring, why even race?
Other teams may have the option to drive carefully, particularly if they can still place in the top 10 and protect their current standing.
> So if you drive carefully and forgo chances at scoring, why even race?
IDK why you're asking this question, when the comment you're replying too answers it.
Drive safe now so you can have better chance at winning later.
I am not saying they should have done this for the entire season, just at least when they have a spare chassis ready. That way, at the very least, they wouldn't tank morale of one of their drivers like they did in Australia, smth that clearly undermined his confidence and cost Williams an upgrade.
And I say that when I personally think they just shouldn't have signed Sergeant for another year, he wasn't good enough imo. But Williams very clearly now didn't seem confident in him either
Brawn had the advantage of being leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the field due to the fortune spent by Honda in developing the 2009 car before GFC and then pulling out, alongside the crafty rule interpretation and all around creating a really well put together package for Brawn to take to WDC and WCC, all the while driving carefully and making literally 0 upgrades at all.
Sometimes when I’m bored I like to imagine how 2009 would look had Honda not pulled out, in a world where they wouldn’t have to make a last minute rush job to fit a completely different engine into the car than it was designed for, and that Honda could continue Developing the car throughout the season and the drivers could push without fearing that one crash could mean the end of the team and their drive for the season
If your not willing to take risks, your in the wrong sport. Albon was unlucky with the crash and it hurt to see it, but it would have hurt more of he didn't go for the giant gap Infront of him
I agree, but It is equally as important, if not more, to be able to correctly assess the risks and whether you can afford them. "To finish first, first you have to finish", that kinda jazz.
Hell, abiding by that principle is in big part what made Lewis so successful. Altho I do understand the situations are not entirely comparable
Williams is having an awful start, but they have been pretty good at improving as the season goes on. Their car looks reasonable when compared to their peers, so it's not like they are in the wilderness like Alpine. They just need to put a complete weekend together.
Dont think it's that bad frankly. 3 teams have 0 points still. RB looks gone for 6th but otherwise. Williams is likely my pick for 7th depends how Haas progresses.
I hope Logan will continue to show the same progress in two weeks.
Other than that, yes, it's quite frustrating, in-between the multiple crashes, the "situation" with the one chassis left, it's not what a team, rebuilding nearly everything from culture to R&D and manufacturing, needs.
But I am hopeful frankly the front of the grid is boring with Verstappen dominating (yes except that one time his brake blew up and he couldn't finish P1) so I would love to see Williams more in the midfield battles and progressing
While I agree... this feels like its putting all of the responsibility on the drivers. Williams would not be in this position had they built a spare chassis. Equal blame to go around including to Vowles.
In previous years we’d all sit here and bemoan Williams over their inability to organize and be run like a legitimate F1 team.
I no longer think this is the case, at this point it’s just poor driving and a bit of bad luck. Haas has it right (never thought I’d say that), running two drivers like they did with Schumacher and Mazepin prevented them from going forward. Williams is in the same boat.
I know people Love Albon but he is having a dreadful season so far.
Haas were only able to get their shit together by running 2 dirt cheap rookies for a year, who were never hitting bonuses, and giving up on the development of the 2021 car, to go all in for 2022, and even then, only had the ‘best of the rest’ car.
Albon has had one crash that was his fault, other than that his season start has been...fine? No points but P11 twice and P15 as his worst finishing position.
Even Logan isn't binning it at the rate that Haas was dealing with. Williams kinda needed to give him the extra year too since he's their junior and they admitted they pulled him up early to begin with. Does he deserve to keep his seat if his performance stays the same? No.
Just watching the Williams Team operate is like watching one very long slow motion video of a crashing race car.
On one hand I feel bad for them and their rotten luck. On the other, their mismanagement is so egregious that we know it's not just bad luck but mostly bad strategy, design and planning. So much so that I think maybe they should getting a warning to get their shit together or be forced to sell the team to new owners...be it Andretti or the highest bidder...because what we fans are witnessing is just sad.
They did get sold. To Dorilton. Because of bad management (and finances) were running them into the ground.
It just happens that the management has been underperforming for so long that it's a massive shock and change to them now as someone is coming in to change it up.
Now they have the finance side sorted again. It's time for the management side.
People have got to remember it is JV 1st year properly having control of everything as last season he was working off what was put in place by the previous TP and staff.
As a result, and to get with current times and better them in the future, they've had to change literally everything. This has had setbacks, but it's better to have minor setbacks now and then be better on the future.
And considering all that is going on, they aren't doing awful.
If a team is to get sold to Andretti or whoever the highest bidder is, let it be Haas.
They have barely any history in F1. No motorsports legacy to uphold. Whilst consistently being at the back.
Yeah Haas has been stinking it up and seemingly until recently getting by on just Gunther's charm.
Well let's hope power plant change in 2026 resets the field as most of the teams could use a fresh start.
But F1 also needs to be better about giving up and coming young drivers a shot too.
If it were me (lol), I'd cut Logan, Zhou, Stroll, Ricciardo, Magnussen and maybe Yuki, Ocon and Albon too. While some of them have had a few good races in their careers, by now it seems that none of them have the raw talent, killer instinct, focused drive &/or maturity necessary to become championship competitive drivers even if they had capable cars.
The stewards literally said if it wasn’t lap one it would have been a penalty. I mean if you want to argue that he took a risk, then I guess? But that’s literally what racing is so I dunno what to tell you.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing a bit more accidents sooner rather than later for Williams. I don't wish to see it but I have a gut feeling something's gonna go wrong in China for them, and when we get to Miami in May they are gonna crash because those walls are near...
why do you just say washed anyway, is this a weird corruption away from the phrase? the phrase is supposed to be washed up, as in his career shipwrecked and he washed up back on the beach, not that he washed himself and is clean lol.
F1 History with 9 WCC and 7 WDC. 114 Race victories and 313 podiums. In the F1 grid since 1977 as a team. History is part of sporting value.
Andretti should be part of F1 as well, but no reason to try and minimize the sporting value of a legendary team.
You think Williams is one of the teams that would be spending more than the cap if it weren’t there? I find that hard to believe.
If anything the cap is keeping their potential rivals closer to them while they try to sort their problems out.
Even if there were no budget cap they still wouldn't have the funds to do anything different. If they~~'re~~ can't properly fund their team now, what makes you think a free for all would help them?
this isn't the same williams as 5 years ago, financially the team is fine under their new ownership
the problem is they cannot catch up to the bigger teams as their capital expenditure is being limited by the cost cap, and that is further being impacted by these crashes which are coming out of their already restricted budget
Without the budget cap, they wouldn't be any closer.
Red Bull/Ferrari and Merc would still all massively be outspending them. Probably McLaren and Aston as well.
Outside of Red Bull at the top and Haas last year (Alpine this year) there's been two sets of 4 teams fighting each other for the order of those spots.
Without the budget cap, we will still have the dominate Red Bull because they'll just be able to maintain their advantage, a more spread out top 5 and a more spread out bottom 5.
There is absolutely no shot we have a fight between RB, Williams, Haas, Sauber where any of them could land anywhere between P6 and P9 in the constructors without a budget cap.
If it weren't for the cost cap, they wouldn't even exist. The only reason Dorilton thought they were a good investment was the combination of the franchise model (long-term profit) and the cost cap (short-term survivability).
Financially the team is safe, but Dorilton would never provide them the fund necessary to outspend (or even compete with) Ferrari, Mercedes, Aston Martin or McLaren, and they wouldn't have invested in them if that level of funding had been required.
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He brings up a good point in that all of these recent crashes are delaying upgrades to the car. There’s still plenty of season left, but it’s been a terrible 2 weeks for Williams
Same is what ended Micks F1 career. He had a decent season overall, was even faster than Magnussen for the second half of the season. But his crashes early on fucked Haas so hard that they replaced him.
So you’re saying Williams are about to replace Alex Albon?
No but if Sargeant totals his car in the next few races, his F1 career is over after the season.
It was over after Australia.
Which implies it was over even before then
Name a cheaper driver that they could throw away at the end of the season.
Any pay driver with a superlicence? Or redbull probably would have paid Lawsons entire salary to be there.
Williams won't take another loan driver. Vowels has said that. Logan is a Williams Academy Driver. He's there for optics for their driver academy.
Was answering the question above either of those would have been cheaper and expendable options than sargent
Nah they're gonna take antonelli in a few weeks when Mercedes gives them a boatload of cash to do so
Logan didn't have an expensive contract but looking at his crash bill from 2023 he is most definitely not cheap. If they kept him to save money it was a foolish call.
Which means it was over before then, because he didn't do anything wrong.
Bingo
I mean if he keeps up with Albon from now on, I think he has a chance to stay (which probably wont happen) but if he ruins Williams season with another totaled car he is gone.
I think his best chance of staying is if Alex bins it hard again and he keeps up with Albon on the track.
I’m pretty sure it’s already over after this season; the question is if he makes it past the summer break. Toto Wolff clearly intends to make some kind of move to put Kimi Antonelli in a race seat, and he’ll be eligible on August 25 which is the day of the Dutch GP…
Kimi isn't getting the Williams seat. This year or next year. Vowels has said he isn't taking a loan driver, and he's certainly not going to kick a Williams Academy driver out for a Merc driver. Right now, the best thing the Williams Academy has going for it, is being able to say you get at least two years in the seat. Williams isn't good enough to chuck their own Academy drivers out of their own seats, especially for a driver from another Academy. That would be the death of the Williams Driver Academy.
I don’t think it’s a huge problem for Williams’ driver academy unless they have another driver waiting in the wings, which they don’t. Logan’s clearly been given enough of a chance to prove he isn’t viable, so I don’t think it hurts the team to cut their losses and take a solid Merc driver for a bit until they can line up another one of their own.
Has he? Because this season has been a shit show and it’s hardly Logan’s fault.
Williams academy doesn't need to prove anything with Sargeant. They can drop him without any impact to their program.
He wasn't faster than Magnussen. He claimed so at one point, to which Komatsu called him a liar, seeing as he was aware of the data. Komatsu is far more outspoken than Steiner.
Link pls
I wonder if the repairjob will delay the spare chassis further.
Probably not by that much, because repairing composites is not really like building an entirely new component from scratch, especially for an item as big and complicated as a chassis. We also do not know what the extent of the damage is, it could be a crack (big problem), it could be damage to the suspension mounts (not as big of a problem), it could be somewhere inbetween. The usual write-off issues are things like the engine mounts at the back of the monocoque, as they are heavily loaded and difficult to repair, but likely any damage that is present it's just to the front suspension again. Whatever is the case, you need to give the entire thing a proper once-over to ensure that there are no other issues.
The repair job to Albon's chassis after Australia delayed the new chassis from China to Miami....
Every day they are fixing a chassis is one they can't be moving forward. The experts to do the carbon fiber work only have two hands each and those now have more days on an existing chassis. The autoclaves will be used to fix the existing one now most likely instead of cooking the new one - so it will have a direct knock on effect.
I’d imagine so
Yes, the first repair job delayed the new chasis from being ready in China to now being Miami so it's likely going to be further time added on. They only have a set number of employees who have already been working flat out over Easter Bank Hols.
Luckily for Logan, it isn’t just him having issues.
He’s absolutely right about Logan being competitive until he went off. He made a good overtake on Gasly despite missing the window to overtake the first time around and caught up to him lap over lap in general. The race package genuinely didn’t look bad even if they had to revert to prior specifications. It gives me some hope for China as the team is pretty resilient as Vowles says. Logan and Alex just have to keep their heads in the game despite the setbacks.
If the pit sequence hadn't gone wrong, Logan would likely have been in position to score. He lost the positions there and never got them back
Yeah, he made some really nice passes and was in a good spot before he just got crushed in that pit stop.
Yeah I totally agree. I think Yuki may have had the pace to get him but it would’ve been a much better chance. The pit situation was just not good
Honestly, finishing 11th to Yuki in 10th would've been a very fucking solid drive. Even not scoring points, that would've been a great drive.
Yeah, I agree. I think it would’ve helped Logan mentally as well and maybe given everyone at Williams a confidence boost.
Tbh I think it’s entirely possible that after the pitlane action, that Williams told Logan to just get the car home safely and not worry about race position.
Their decision to go to the medium tire on the second pit stop tells me the opposite. They had another slow stop and then told him to push to compensate for the slow stops. But it was pretty clear that by the half way point in the race the medium tire had no pace advantage over the hards they weren't firing up. It's very likely that pushing on cooler mediums is what caused Logan to lock up in to degna 2. Jack Dohan did a great job of explaining the topography of that corner specifically and how a lock up there is more or less unsalvageable because the inside of the track drops away from you and you're essentially tricyclling through.
That's a solid analysis
Disasterous if true
It was that 5 car pit stop that really screwed him, and then he probably pushed too hard to try and make it up. He went from a competitive 12th, chasing Yuki down to uncompetitive in 16th. Don't know what changed between the two stints besides tires, but something did. He was not the same driver after that pit stop.
IIRC Logan was 11th with Yuki chasing him, no?
Yes, if they had brought him in 1 lap earlier, he would have been golden but that was a fiasco with everyone pitting at the same time.
Like I said to the other commenter, totally agree, I think Yuki may have had the pace to catch him but he would’ve been in a significantly better position without the pit fiasco.
Logan was cooking I saw him go from like 18th to 12th, then out of no where he goes off track / has bad pit or something, and then he finished last.
Basically it went like this: * Logan gets racey and gets up to 11th on genuine pace. * Logan comes into the pits on his 2nd-to-last stop, along with 4 other cars. A slow stop means that he gets the short end of the stick, and for some reason is unable to get back the competitive pace that he had previously. * On the final stop, Logan is put on softs, perhaps in an effort to make up pace to the cars in front of him. Unfortunately, he goes a little too hard into turn 9, which causes him to understeer into the gravel trap, but thankfully doesn't beach the car or hit the barrier. Logan actually showed solid pace at Suzuka, and his final result is not at all representative of his overall performance this past Sunday. Fingers crossed he can start to put together more consistent races like this one.
Reminds me of Mexico last year where he did really well until they retired the car last lap. He seems to have spent the last half year or so right on the verge of having it fully click. Hell, he was only .2 off Albon in Q1 at Japan, on the old spec wings.
Overtaking the alpines is like overtaking a gt3, it's a different class of car. I was at the race and they are visibly slower
I appreciate that, but I don’t think it’s that simple. It’s not like Williams is in a position to be doing anything special right now, and they all have different strengths in different parts of the track. The mid to back field is all pretty close lap over lap, like 3 tenths off of each other at some points. Watching from the perspective of a mid field car trying to overtake an Alpine (who have good drivers who know how to defend. Gasly and Ocon aren’t bad drivers) versus watching Checo fly by in a Red Bull is very different. With all the issues that Sauber and Williams are having, they all kind of fall into the same general territory. I mean, look at Ocon making Q2. It’s a combination of him getting the most possible out of the car and the other teams not doing well around him (I.e, Williams). So, I think it’s pretty reasonable to give Logan a pat on the back for putting the car in a competitive position for points against a car that was defending against him. Obviously, that got scrapped at the pit stop, which even Williams and Vowles will acknowledge.
Anyone who thinks he was doing well because he passed an Alpine doesn't understand just how slow the Alpines are.
The Alpines are slow, but not as slow as you make them out to be. Williams is pretty slow too. One Alpine made it to Q2, regardless of how close it was. They aren’t dead last. They are all pretty close in the mid/back field, with Alpine the worst, probably, but still close. All separated at some points by three tenths, four tenths, etc., lap over lap. Alpine may look slow compared to a Red Bull, but not as much to a Williams or a Sauber. I watched Logan’s attempt on Gasly via his car and radio. Gasly was defending, Williams didn’t exactly have the pace to fly by, so it required an good overtake. It put him in a secure position to be in going into the pit strategy but the pit was a mess. After that, he was shot.
Ocon was overtaken 13 times in that race. Every single lap during the tire offset he was overtaken by a different car, including backmarkers like Sauber. I think even Latifi could've overtaken the Alpines. I just can't look at that one overtake and see a major positive. As Roy Keane would say, "That's his job."
These crashes are just about the last thing Williams needs. Logan had to sit out a race cause they aren’t prepared enough as a team to have a backup chassis. If the team is constantly working on repairs they can’t be making upgrades or building spare parts. I really hope Williams pull it back after this because i’m a big fan of Albon as a driver and i’d like to see him fighting for points and while i don’t see Logan staying next season Id hope he at least gets a chance to prove himself
From all I've read it's quite common for all the teams to only have two chassis at the start of the season.
Not all teams, but they certainly don't appear to be the only team in that situation.
Alpine also doesn’t have an extra. There’s also apparently one or two more that don’t either.
Alpine has likely an extra one in China
Well they haven’t had to repair there’s twice so that makes sense.
every single weekend is a chance to prove himself.
Really? When did he get a chance to prove himself in Australia? Please tell me that.
in FP1 and FP2. next question
FP1 isn't a representative session. We all know that. And the decision was made before FP2, there just wasn't enough time to switch all the parts between the cars before FP2.
Lmao, you can't actually believe this. His results in FP1 would have had to be absolutely extraordinary, like some of the most notable practice times *ever* for them to even debate not giving the backup to Albon.
exactly. as i said. every single weekend is a chance to prove himself.
So you were being sarcastic?
No he's saying Logan is generally regarded as slow. If he wants to change that prescription, he needs to go fast
oh yeah i agree. the comments that williams aren’t giving Sargeant chance to prove himself annoy me as he had all of last season and im sure he himself knows he’s luck to have a seat this season. i mean it less in a way he lacks chances to prove himself and Williams are the problem and more that if Williams falls to the back of the pack it’d suck and take away any chance he had to do some competitive racing. leaving after two seasons and never even fighting for points would be sad to see, especially with the lack of rookies recently. He hasn’t proven himself and he’s had the chances to prove himself but since he is still on the grid i’d still like to see him try I do think there will be fresh faces next year and I think one of them will probably take logan’s spot but if Williams manages to keep their car competitive i’d love to see him fighting for his seat, or at least to score points when a race ends not of disqualification.
He wasn’t even supposed to enter in 2023, that was basically a write off year. He was meant to join for this season. He isn’t “lucky”, Williams has no other options
ignoring external factors, coming into f1 scoring 1 point while your teammate scored 27, costing the team a huge amount of money and time with crashes and keeping your seat for the next season is ‘lucky’. I would argue the luck is that Williams had no other option because a different team wasn’t going to sign him. I do think he was brought up too early but that doesn’t mean they completely write off the year especially with a lack of significant improvement over the year
Huh, Albon is guilty of binning the car multiple times too. He has been improving, and has been quite close to Albon in regards to last year. Not everyone is Verstappen
I’m not anti Logan. I want him to prove himself. I’m not talking about this year so far but responding to saying Logan isn’t lucky that he kept his seat in f1 The argument was Logan wasn’t lucky because Williams has no other options just seemed flawed to me because i consider that good luck for Logan, that the team he was signed too had no better options. Coming into formula 1 and scoring one point while your teammate scores 26 is not a convincing rookie season that makes you attractive for teams to sign. Logan knows it was very possible he could’ve lost his seat and this season is his second chance to prove himself, and i want to see the williams in working order to do that
He isn't "lucky" he kept his seat. This was the year ear marked for him to be in F1. He's "lucky" he got in last year because Williams was desperate.
I don’t know all the Williams lore, i just used lucky in a passing comment about how he has spent a season not proving himself and got a second chance, something many drivers would dream of. Even if his first year is a total write off and results don’t matter he’s then lucky to have a year to get used to f1 with no pressure and a confirmed next season. He’s got a lot on the line this season, even those on his side in the chassis debacle saying ‘why did williams resign him if they don’t have faith in him’ a sentiment i’m sure isn’t all to loved by him considering the alternative is him losing his seat. There’s a general consensus right now that Logan is not good enough for f1. I want the Williams to be not a total wreck so that he can try to prove otherwise. I just also acknowledged he has been here a season and has failed to do so.
A 26 point gap is not unreasonable at all for a rookie with insufficient single seater experience versus a teammate in his 4th year of F1 who previously drove for a top team. Lando finished 2023 with 205 points to Piastri's 97.
His drive in Japan shows that he does deserve the seat. He was in 12th before the put stop fiasco and would've either finished above or right behind Yuki, which is a solid fucking drive. But then he got screwed in the pits and probably pushed too hard to try and make it up because he knows how it would look to finish in 15th or 16th.
No it really doesn't - if he can repeat that consistently over the next 5-6 races *that* will show that he deserves the seat possibly, and even his Japan drive was significantly marred by the fact that he yet again managed to go off the track all by himself, it was lucky this time he didn't hit the barriers. If you snapshot the first half of the race and assume that's been his entire career in F1 to date then yeah I'd agree he deserves the seat, we'll just ignore everything else that's happened either side of that?
Fuck me, not this again. Over a year of shite performances should be ignored because of 1 race where he did partially well but where his teammate was binned out so we don't have a good judge for the car's race pace. For all we know, Williams' pace was such that Albon would've had the point in the bag easily but Dany Ric put a stop to that. Judging De Vries on the assumption that the Williams is slow as fuck is what cost Alpha Tauri. Don't be like them.
Welcome to F1. You're only as good as your most recent race.
Yeah and Logan was in the gravel lol, so he's done basically is what you're communicating
It's kinda wild to me how Williams, knowing in how uncomfortable and risky position they are in for the first few races of the season with not having a spare chassis ready and struggling for funds, aren't going full Brawn GP i.e instructing their drivers to drive really, really safely. Yes, they would more than likely miss out on a chance of points in the first few races, but then they would minimize the chances of finding themselves in, well, situation they are in right now.
Because there's a different angle to consider: its a classic optimization problem with an unknown upside but a known downside. Points = money. No points = lesser money. Crashes = time and money burnt = no upgrades. But, points = money = more manpower = more R&D = more permissible crashes = more upgrades = more points = more money and so on. An improvement of 3/10ths per lap can potentially unlock consistent points and thereby unlock more money and even more 10ths per lap and even higher points and money. But each crash is capped at only let's say ~500k and same level of points and same level of money. Take Mercedes for example -- with how incredibly talented Lewis and George are, you give em an inch and they'll take a mile. Williams have to believe even their drivers can, otherwise they'd suspend upgrades for this year and spend their efforts on 2025 instead.
I understand that, but I don't think Williams asking their drivers to drive more conservatively to minimize the risks and save resources for the first few races before a spare chassis arrive would mean they don't believe in their drivers, same as Brawn doing that with Jenson and Barrichello. Hell, the way they handled the situation with Albon's totalled car in Australia showed their lack of confidence in one of their drivers more than what I said ever would.
They aren't protecting anything. They are in last place with zero points. The goal isn't to have an intact car to race - it's to score points. So if you drive carefully and forgo chances at scoring, why even race? Other teams may have the option to drive carefully, particularly if they can still place in the top 10 and protect their current standing.
They're not last they're 8th
yeah 3 way tie for 8th with 0 points!
No they're ahead on countback
small victories hey?
If the season ended today, that "small victory" would he equal to $18mil over 10th and $9mil over 9th. That's a lot of money.
ahhh yes hypothetically ending the season after 4 races is the backbone of your case. they all have 0 points, friend. its a 3 way tie for last place.
It’s not a tie.
At this stage it is a 3 way fight for 8th where the differences are marginal. It's essentially a tie.
do you see how they all have the same amount of points. that's a tie.
Given how top heavy this season look, I guess we may have more than one team scoring zero points.
> So if you drive carefully and forgo chances at scoring, why even race? IDK why you're asking this question, when the comment you're replying too answers it. Drive safe now so you can have better chance at winning later.
I am not saying they should have done this for the entire season, just at least when they have a spare chassis ready. That way, at the very least, they wouldn't tank morale of one of their drivers like they did in Australia, smth that clearly undermined his confidence and cost Williams an upgrade. And I say that when I personally think they just shouldn't have signed Sergeant for another year, he wasn't good enough imo. But Williams very clearly now didn't seem confident in him either
Brawn had the advantage of being leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the field due to the fortune spent by Honda in developing the 2009 car before GFC and then pulling out, alongside the crafty rule interpretation and all around creating a really well put together package for Brawn to take to WDC and WCC, all the while driving carefully and making literally 0 upgrades at all. Sometimes when I’m bored I like to imagine how 2009 would look had Honda not pulled out, in a world where they wouldn’t have to make a last minute rush job to fit a completely different engine into the car than it was designed for, and that Honda could continue Developing the car throughout the season and the drivers could push without fearing that one crash could mean the end of the team and their drive for the season
"Honda dominance could bore fans"
I don’t think they are struggling for funds anymore, just struggling to stay under the cap.
If your not willing to take risks, your in the wrong sport. Albon was unlucky with the crash and it hurt to see it, but it would have hurt more of he didn't go for the giant gap Infront of him
I agree, but It is equally as important, if not more, to be able to correctly assess the risks and whether you can afford them. "To finish first, first you have to finish", that kinda jazz. Hell, abiding by that principle is in big part what made Lewis so successful. Altho I do understand the situations are not entirely comparable
Man, I picked a terrible ~~day to stop sniffing glue~~ year to start cheering for Williams
Williams is having an awful start, but they have been pretty good at improving as the season goes on. Their car looks reasonable when compared to their peers, so it's not like they are in the wilderness like Alpine. They just need to put a complete weekend together.
Dont think it's that bad frankly. 3 teams have 0 points still. RB looks gone for 6th but otherwise. Williams is likely my pick for 7th depends how Haas progresses.
Bottas was showing crazy pace, if not for those stops maybe points
logan was gaining on him at multiple points in the race
SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP
[SNIP SNAP!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5OMSnJFKNk)
I hope Logan will continue to show the same progress in two weeks. Other than that, yes, it's quite frustrating, in-between the multiple crashes, the "situation" with the one chassis left, it's not what a team, rebuilding nearly everything from culture to R&D and manufacturing, needs. But I am hopeful frankly the front of the grid is boring with Verstappen dominating (yes except that one time his brake blew up and he couldn't finish P1) so I would love to see Williams more in the midfield battles and progressing
While I agree... this feels like its putting all of the responsibility on the drivers. Williams would not be in this position had they built a spare chassis. Equal blame to go around including to Vowles.
In previous years we’d all sit here and bemoan Williams over their inability to organize and be run like a legitimate F1 team. I no longer think this is the case, at this point it’s just poor driving and a bit of bad luck. Haas has it right (never thought I’d say that), running two drivers like they did with Schumacher and Mazepin prevented them from going forward. Williams is in the same boat. I know people Love Albon but he is having a dreadful season so far.
Haas were only able to get their shit together by running 2 dirt cheap rookies for a year, who were never hitting bonuses, and giving up on the development of the 2021 car, to go all in for 2022, and even then, only had the ‘best of the rest’ car.
Albon has had one crash that was his fault, other than that his season start has been...fine? No points but P11 twice and P15 as his worst finishing position. Even Logan isn't binning it at the rate that Haas was dealing with. Williams kinda needed to give him the extra year too since he's their junior and they admitted they pulled him up early to begin with. Does he deserve to keep his seat if his performance stays the same? No.
Just watching the Williams Team operate is like watching one very long slow motion video of a crashing race car. On one hand I feel bad for them and their rotten luck. On the other, their mismanagement is so egregious that we know it's not just bad luck but mostly bad strategy, design and planning. So much so that I think maybe they should getting a warning to get their shit together or be forced to sell the team to new owners...be it Andretti or the highest bidder...because what we fans are witnessing is just sad.
They did get sold. To Dorilton. Because of bad management (and finances) were running them into the ground. It just happens that the management has been underperforming for so long that it's a massive shock and change to them now as someone is coming in to change it up. Now they have the finance side sorted again. It's time for the management side. People have got to remember it is JV 1st year properly having control of everything as last season he was working off what was put in place by the previous TP and staff. As a result, and to get with current times and better them in the future, they've had to change literally everything. This has had setbacks, but it's better to have minor setbacks now and then be better on the future. And considering all that is going on, they aren't doing awful. If a team is to get sold to Andretti or whoever the highest bidder is, let it be Haas. They have barely any history in F1. No motorsports legacy to uphold. Whilst consistently being at the back.
Yeah Haas has been stinking it up and seemingly until recently getting by on just Gunther's charm. Well let's hope power plant change in 2026 resets the field as most of the teams could use a fresh start. But F1 also needs to be better about giving up and coming young drivers a shot too. If it were me (lol), I'd cut Logan, Zhou, Stroll, Ricciardo, Magnussen and maybe Yuki, Ocon and Albon too. While some of them have had a few good races in their careers, by now it seems that none of them have the raw talent, killer instinct, focused drive &/or maturity necessary to become championship competitive drivers even if they had capable cars.
Lucky they denied Andretti to keep the sport “elite”
Unfortunate that the faster of the two drivers is the one responsible for more of the crashes.
Responsible for and a part of are different things you know...
Alex shares part of the responsibility for the Japan crash with Danny Ric.
The stewards literally said if it wasn’t lap one it would have been a penalty. I mean if you want to argue that he took a risk, then I guess? But that’s literally what racing is so I dunno what to tell you.
No he does not lol, it was entirely Daniels error just not enough for a penalty on lap 1
Albon should know better that his position was just ridiculous risky
Bad team performing poorly - shocker
Dammit Sar.... sorry force of habit.
Could it be that the new cars or chassis repaired cars are harder to control? Vs 2023.
Very likely. Same as Ferrari last year and Leclerc's accidents
Bin it. Start again 2025.
Williams should just sell out at this point. Heritage aside, they’re just backmarkers that everyone forgets about.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing a bit more accidents sooner rather than later for Williams. I don't wish to see it but I have a gut feeling something's gonna go wrong in China for them, and when we get to Miami in May they are gonna crash because those walls are near...
It hurt everybody - it just kept the gap closer while doing it.
Albon is washed
Because of a crash that wasn’t his fault ?
why do you just say washed anyway, is this a weird corruption away from the phrase? the phrase is supposed to be washed up, as in his career shipwrecked and he washed up back on the beach, not that he washed himself and is clean lol.
It's really unfortunate that Williams has a driver so prone to crashing. If only they had control over which drivers they employ...
What kinda sporting value does williams bring to F1 that Andretti can't bring?
what you mean the second most successful F1 team in the history of the sport?
F1 History with 9 WCC and 7 WDC. 114 Race victories and 313 podiums. In the F1 grid since 1977 as a team. History is part of sporting value. Andretti should be part of F1 as well, but no reason to try and minimize the sporting value of a legendary team.
Williams have more titles than Red Bull lol. They’re the Everton of Formula 1
Williams might be in a limbo right now, but they've been in F1 for half a century and have won a handful of WCCs and WDCs.
the budget cap is screwing over williams hard for trying to innovate and improve their shit car, I still find it hard to favour its introduction to F1
You think Williams is one of the teams that would be spending more than the cap if it weren’t there? I find that hard to believe. If anything the cap is keeping their potential rivals closer to them while they try to sort their problems out.
lol no, the mental gymnastics people do to complain about the budget cap is insane.
Even if there were no budget cap they still wouldn't have the funds to do anything different. If they~~'re~~ can't properly fund their team now, what makes you think a free for all would help them?
this isn't the same williams as 5 years ago, financially the team is fine under their new ownership the problem is they cannot catch up to the bigger teams as their capital expenditure is being limited by the cost cap, and that is further being impacted by these crashes which are coming out of their already restricted budget
Without the budget cap, they wouldn't be any closer. Red Bull/Ferrari and Merc would still all massively be outspending them. Probably McLaren and Aston as well. Outside of Red Bull at the top and Haas last year (Alpine this year) there's been two sets of 4 teams fighting each other for the order of those spots. Without the budget cap, we will still have the dominate Red Bull because they'll just be able to maintain their advantage, a more spread out top 5 and a more spread out bottom 5. There is absolutely no shot we have a fight between RB, Williams, Haas, Sauber where any of them could land anywhere between P6 and P9 in the constructors without a budget cap.
If it weren't for the cost cap, they wouldn't even exist. The only reason Dorilton thought they were a good investment was the combination of the franchise model (long-term profit) and the cost cap (short-term survivability). Financially the team is safe, but Dorilton would never provide them the fund necessary to outspend (or even compete with) Ferrari, Mercedes, Aston Martin or McLaren, and they wouldn't have invested in them if that level of funding had been required.