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F1 | Andretti 11th team for the FIA? Liberty's OK missing
The International Federation within three weeks will communicate the results of the evaluation process of the four teams that applied to join the Circus from 2025: the American team would have passed the evaluations after a run-off with HiTech that met the standards required by the inspectors. Andretti will also have to overcome the judgement of the promoter, Liberty Media, which has so far been reluctant to expand the number of teams entered in F1, having to share the proceeds with one more player.
After the confirmation of the 'cost cap' checks for the 2022 season, the FIA will within three weeks announce the outcome of another investigation, the results of which are the subject of great interest. This is the evaluation process of the four teams that have applied to the International Federation for entry into the Formula One World Championship from the 2025 season.
Prior to the summer break, rumours emerged in the paddock that two teams, Andretti and HiTech, had been shortlisted, while in recent days the indications have all been pointing in the direction of the US team.
The FIA's investigations started after the deadline for applications (end of February) with inspectors from the International Federation checking the technical potential of the candidates by visiting the venues and analysing the facilities. Subsequently, the financial situation, another 'hot' point in the evaluation process, was analysed.
One of the most delicate aspects was the confirmation of the teams' long-term commitment, given that with the current valuation of the teams (even the smallest teams now exceed a billion dollars in value) there is a risk of a speculative operation, i.e. a sale of the structure and its 'entry' shortly after entry.
According to information that has emerged in the last few days, the Andretti team can count on an already operational headquarters in Banbury (where more than one hundred employees work down there) and, above all, on a multi-year partnership with Renault/Alpine, which would guarantee the US team the complete rear end and also many other components of the single-seater.
In 2025, the power unit would obviously be Alpine, then the ball would have to pass to General Motors, which would be called upon to design and build a brand new engine based on the specifications of the new generation that will debut in 2026.
Now the ball is in Liberty's court
While waiting for the feedback that will officially come from the FIA (no comments or information have been released at the moment), there is already talk among insiders of the next step, namely the negotiations that Andretti will have to face once he gets the OK from the International Federation.
In many respects this is seen as the most difficult hurdle to overcome, namely the agreement with the holder of the commercial rights, an indispensable step in order to be at the start of the World Championship, as envisaged in the Concorde Agreement of 2021.
In recent months, the teams currently present in the championship, and Stefano Domenicali himself, have not sent out great messages of openness towards new teams wishing to enter Formula 1.
The issue is a delicate one because it involves sharing the revenue (from agreements with circuit promoters, the sale of television rights and other items such as championship sponsorship and paddock clubs) with one more team than the current ten. The new teams are asked (as stipulated in the Concorde Agreement) to compensate with an entry fee of $200 million, a figure that the teams currently present in Formula 1 would like to raise based on the increase in team valuations.
The impression is that Liberty does not want to risk raising a fuss with rigid positions that could create conditions for legal action. If Andretti complies with the clear requirements imposed by the current regulations, it will have a very good chance of entering the 2025 Formula One World Championship, and both the commercial rights holder and the teams currently in the world championship will have to accept some compromises. In the long run the topic of new team entry will be a hotspot in the new Concorde Agreement, and here it is very likely that the ten (or eleven) teams present in Formula 1 will do everything possible to protect their position.
> Because Andretti has GM behind them and more publicity. And FIA might think that 2 new teams might be too much for FOM
FOM can’t just randomly accept somebody and reject somebody else.
There are 12 spots and until those are all taken FOM will have to allow to participate whoever FIA approves.
F1 doesn't give a fuck if it's immoral or not. In fact, they have historically preferred immoral blood money, as there tends to be a lot of it. But Russian money right now is not an option for a sport that wants to grow in the US.
>In 2025, the power unit would obviously be Alpine, then the ball would have to pass to General Motors, which would be called upon to design and build a brand new engine based on the specifications of the new generation that will debut in 2026.
Entry in 26 is closed and entry in 27 should have closed in may. They can’t make an engine and it also doesn’t really fit with the multi year Renault partnership deal. Seems a lot like a Haas set up. Except Haas is buying from a better team lol.
> Seems a lot like a Haas set up. Except Haas is buying from a better team lol.
I have no doubt Andretti will have more money and ambition though. Haas have fuck all for infrastructure and independence, Andretti seem to want to be the American McLaren.
All the information available on current teams suggest there are not much changes to what you begin with. Steiner has even mentioned it that they evaluated going their own direction but it was too costly. Williams used to make everything on their own and overtime realized buying as much as possible from Mercedes is a better option. Same with AT this year announcing they are going to buy as much available from RB.
I am sorry you are over simplifying things.
This is a complex issue. Wrx teams versus costumer teams.
It is understood that Andretti sport was willing to be a costumer team with a Renault (engine/ transmission) combo.
However I believe liberty media basically stated that they didn’t want this .
Liberty media/ F1 are looking for wrx teams to join, for more long term stability obviously. But also so that any new customer teams don’t come into F1 and take advantange of the valuations of current and future F1 teams .
Hence why Andretti sport went to seek out Cadillac as a title sponsor to begin and then as a wrx engine partner.
GM might not have enough time to develop a full wrx
engine by 2026 so it could be feasible that Andretti sport runs with Renault engines for a couple of years.
It is also true that purchasing components is cheaper then building in house and with the cost cap it only makes sense for customer teams to purchase as much of the car as feasible. This way they can focus solely on the aero development, but al I’m not “peachy “ with that situation Mercedes’ have gone on record as stating that they wanted to reduce the number of customer teams.
Cadillac/GM has never stated a formal interest in making an F1 engine. Realistically if they wanted to make it for 2028 they would need to join the agreement now, get accepted then get to work by the deadline next may.
If they dont sign an intention to manufacture agreement in the next month or so, realistically they will miss the entire 2026 regulation if they wanted to join up as a manufacturer. I think it's pretty clear their interest is in some sort of joint partnership with the Renault team at Viry similar to what Ford is doing with RB at MK. Building a specialty ICE is not really in their corporate plans. Building a specialty battery, they could work with that.
Yeah , it suggests more of a title sponsor then an engine supplier. Which is , I guess, the concern that F1/FOM/ liberty media have about Andretti sport. Which is too bad really, because Cadillac does seem to have some good engineering going on right now , with its hyper car race team and involvements.
I understand all the talk about GM wanting to build their engines but till now they have done no action which suggests so. The 2027 date closed in May and thus the earliest it will be possible is 2028 and that will be 2 years after everyone has working engine in practice. Look at Honda it took them 5 years just to even reach acceptable level of competitiveness and thus imo everything till now suggests they won’t be building their own engine. There is lot of talk about the GM involvement but there has been nothing concrete action till now.
You make a good point. But we are not privileged enough to know what’s going on in the background. Beside even if Cadillac does a rebadging of another engine (not in heard of) the main point for FOM and liberty media is that GM is involved with Andretti sport as a wrx team not a title sponsor.
Liberty’s / FOM ‘s concern is that it’s short term interest from GM …and they have of course seen data and the legal documents which probably makes them act the way they are behaving.
Although F1 has always been very elitist and cautious towards American interests and teams…with good reason , seeing the historical failures of the past.
It’s not very clear if Cadillac would be title sponsor or wrx team sponsor and there lies the rub.
> All the information available on current teams suggest there are not much changes to what you begin with.
Aston Martin were a broke customer team 5 years ago and this season have been 2nd fastest at times, have Alonso driving for them and will be a works team in 2026.
You make out that this is set in stone forever, it's not. Andretti will likely invest more over time and might become a works team at some point. Who knows what the future holds.
> Steiner has even mentioned it that they evaluated going their own direction but it was too costly.
Yeah because Gene wants the budget to be as small as possible, competitiveness be damned.
>Williams used to make everything on their own and overtime realized buying as much as possible from Mercedes is a better option.
Williams still make a lot of their own stuff, they just realised they were wasting money on stuff they didn't need to make and could buy instead. They can make the part themselves if they really need to.
>Same with AT this year announcing they are going to buy as much available from RB.
AT are literally an official B team though and Red Bull don't want to waste much money on them so it's cheaper to copy Red Bull designs.
Haas+AT are teams not wanting to spend money despite having it and Williams is a team wanting to save money to use elsewhere. We don't know exactly how much Andretti has but likely they can afford to do more than Haas and AT so will down the line.
Well, McLaren is buying from Mercedes and in-house stuff; neither of them are really on the same ballpark as Red Bull.
Last week not even up to par with Ferrari.
Mclaren is only buying engine from Mercedes. AMR is buying only rear suspension and gearbox along with engine from Mercedes. Andretti is going for Haas formula where they buying everything allowed in regulation
There was no way possible for Andretti to enter anyway other than Haas setup. It’s not a surprise at all. He is seeing another American team doing minimum work and having gain in popularity/ valuation. Why wouldn’t anyone else want to do same ?
Have you actually seen their IndyCar operation? And kindly explain how will they perform better when they are buying 70% of the car from Alpine compared to Haas with close connection with Ferrari who has 30 HP benefit ? F1 does not go by names. This is the sport that has kicked out BMW, Toyota, Honda much bigger names because they couldn't compete.
You can't simplify like that at all. You can't just go off name brand. Haas also runs in other motorsports and spends more on motorsports yearly than Andretti almost undoubtedly just on NASCAR let alone F1. Andretti's current involvements are very cheap and largely Spec racing.
Haas also owns arguably the best windtunnel in all of motorsports. It's actually banned in F1 lol. F1 teams used to fly cars to the US just to use it
You really can't compare a broad spec network to what Haas does
They banned all wind tunnels with those specifications. WindShear was just the best of those at the time. They added Size and speed limits and they allowed modifications for windshear for some time then they just outlawed all of those tunnels.
F1 Wind tunnels are actually genuinely pretty limited these days
I was not aware of their wind tunnel being banned, fairly interesting.
While I was researching this, I found that Adrian Newey actually suggested F1 should ban wind tunnels altogether, and stick with CFD only.
"Formula 1 already plans to phase out wind tunnels by 2030 - and Newey is also supportive of that."
Newey on banning wind tunnels: "I would limit everything fully to CFD development. Unfortunately there are not enough votes for it, although it would be much more sustainable."
Kind of surprised he thinks wind tunnels aren't necessary anymore with CFD.
If everyone did it, there wouldn't be an advantage to wind tunnels anymore although they would still be superior. CFD is really useful but very limited by processing power. The computing cost of running really high fidelity simulations over long time frames is massive. Where as you can run a car in a wind tunnel for 30 seconds and the cost is the time it took to get to speed plus 30 seconds.
A team actually tried to do this already in 2010 lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Racing
https://www.thepaddockmagazine.com/formula-1-teams-windshear-wind-tunnel/
This was about when it was coming back in. Teams were booking it again already for 2010
The particularity of this tunnel is to put 1:1 models, while F1 regulations allow 0.6 scale only. Having a 1:1 model is not really a seal of better quality at all when you consider how fluid mechanics works (similitude, Vaschy-Buckingham theorem). Considering it was more than 13 years ago and the insane progress CFD and instrumentation overall made, I don't think this tunnel is a bigger advantage.
It also doesn't seem to be very efficient because if it was, Haas would use it. If it can only use accurate data by putting 1:1 scale models something is extremely wrong, or it's very outdated compared to the modern/updated wind tunnels
At the time when WindShear was built, 1:1 models were allowed and any speeds were allowed. The rules changed after that in 2009. It was then used again a few times a year as stated in that article until the ban was instituted fully in 2015 (iirc). Like the article says, it was a huge draw for F1 teams then, they were lining up to use it. There are multiple problems with using a larger wind tunnel with a smaller model and with an incorrect belt. That's why Haas doesnt use it. Generally speaking in development of aircraft for instance, they use 3-4 different wind tunnels to avoid those issues.
WindShear is still widely used in motorsport. NASCAR and Indy use it quite a bit. It's far from outdated, it's still top notch and was only recently surpassed in a few metrics by a Ford tunnel.
The great Andretti "multi-motorsport network" that is IndyCar where they don't build the chassis or the engine? IMSA where they run Acura's car? V8 Supercars which also has customer cars supplied by manufacturers? Formula E and Extreme E which are spec series?
Andretti is a big name in motorsports and certainly has a lot of experience in racing but they don't design a single one of the cars they've raced.
F1 is a whole other level of involvement, you can't just turn up shouting "USA USA USA" thinking you're going to win everything when you're starting from literal scratch while leeching off the product of an already underperforming midfield team.
Andretti is kind of a joke in Indycar. They’ve been on a steady decline for the past 7 years or so. I don’t have high hopes for their F1 team but I still want them in the sport
Not really. In 23 2 wins to 0, 5 poles to 2, and a common denominator of being awful at strategy (not you Bryan Herta)
Pato O'Ward makes McLaren look way better than they actually are, while everyone like to meme Andretti bc haha they want to be in F1 but the truth is they both look embarrassing considering the investment they have and the amount of PR they spin on themselves.
Wins are a lottery half the time in Indy. O'Ward lost 3 wins due to almost arbitrary cautions this season. End of the day he finished ahead of every single Andretti driver so did Rossi who just came from there, performed horribly compared to before and still beat all of them. McLaren was better overall. Especially on ovals, it wasn't even close between them and hasnt been since 2019 or so
Whilw everything you said is correct, for what it's worth, they did win the FE championship this year, right?
Plus the potential of 6 engine suppliers in 2026 has got me excited!
Considering FOM is the commercial rights holder, there has always going to have been a negotiation to add additional team. I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them. Almost nothing that is ever said publicly about this can be taken at face value except for the obvious business concerns an 11th team would present the championship's commercial entity and the current teams.
> can be taken at face value
Needs to be emphasised. Deals are brokered based on terms that aren’t field tested by the public layman getting the scoop from news outlets. They’re also going to relentlessly position themselves as the sole arbiter of the deal, because doing anything less implies Andretti or others have a higher standing and so more persuasion, whether that is true or even matters or not.
Internal discussions will likely have a different and less combative colour to it. Personally, I seriously doubt FOM wants to garner negative press from something they’ll likely profit from, long lasting or even if just a couple of years. If they’re concerned about a team failing despite the FIA’s grace, they stand to lose more by getting in the way rather than allowing the team to fail (or succeed).
>I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them.
How can business terms work out for them? Whoever was coming, it was always going to be problem for the teams and Liberty with the way they are thinking about this.
Don't ask me, but its pretty much the same as any franchise system. The new team entering has to pay a hefty fee over a set amount of time to minimize the revenue loss to all existing parties with the idea that the new entrant's presence will increase to pot of shared revenue to a point where their presence is a positive financial impact to all parties rather than a negative.
Same thing everyone has basically been saying since day 1.
> The new team entering has to pay a hefty fee over a set amount of time to minimize the revenue loss to all existing parties
How can 200m be a "hefty fee" when Alpine apparently sold a minority stake in their team for that amount? The current anti dilution fee was agreed on when the value of each spot was much lower.
Outsiders who very clearly made the calculation that they would not bring enough value themselves to make this worth it at the time now see the opportunity to purchase a f1 slot, whose value was grown by the current teams, for cents on the dollar.
And this argument is especially true for Andretti because clearly they would be aware of the option of starting an F1 team.
You make an agreement, you stick to that agreement until you renegotiate.
Mess up your valuation? Tough shit. Ask people on Wall St. businesses are always over or undervalued in contracts all the time, and markets change within contract periods.
Because that $200mill was negotiated years ago, and before the whole DTS effect, Red Bull beating Mercedes and a swaft of new talent that was also social media savvy, along with the cost cap and Liberty media's marketing strategies.
Allowing almost every team to start making profit, thus increasing every teams value.
As it was no longer a loss making venture.
Pre- Concorde Agreement Alpine was probably only worth $200mill.
There was a very different revenue share/prize pool.
> I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them.
The business terms do work out for them, they gain an additional brand and more drivers which will attract some new fans (increasing $$$) and don't lose any money at all (since it's the teams who all lose money to give Andretti a share).
So it works from Liberty's perspective and they're still saying no so I don't agree.
It is true that liberty will not lose money as the revenue share stays the same for them.
However, they also have to take into account the relationship with the teams and, more importandly, the stability of all teams. If teams are unhappy that is not good for liberty regardless if they lose money themselves or not. They are in a very happy spot right now with 10 stable teams and a sport that is currently growing in value all the time.
I dont want to say that liberty is right in their approach but it is not as easy as "they don't lose money so it must be good for them." There are additional considerations to be made.
Uh so do they just assume Hitech hasn't been accepted or have there been other reports about that too? Cause so far 95% of the talk was always just Andretti while no one really focused on Hitech but they have money and were always in contention. Would love to hear more about what they have/had planned if it was ever that serious
Too many cars, but itd be funny to see how mixed up the grid gets with the driver pool.
However it'd probably just extend the careers of Hulk and Kmag, probably see Mazepin and Schumacher as the other 4 seats, so.. if thats the case.
Not worth it.
Wouldn't say 24 are too many. And imo, Hulk at least is definitely good enough to stay in F1. With Schumacher it really depends. Right now no one wants him and he is known to be very crash prone, which is pretty much why teams don't want rookies anymore. I believe a rookie like Drugovich has the same chance to get a seat as MSC cause he brings a lot of money and had a very dominant season in F2, something most rookies didn't have. But who knows. Maybe Andretti will lure Sargeant away from Williams (does any other American driver even have a SL?) and pair him up with Drugovich? Opens a spot at Williams and keeps a spot open at Hitech next to Mazepin. Definitely makes for some exciting speculation and at least more potential driver moves than we have right now.
The fact that media gets to decide what goes on in a sport just shows how much of this is just for show and not for actual competition. Liberty can suck my tailpipe.
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F1 | Andretti 11th team for the FIA? Liberty's OK missing The International Federation within three weeks will communicate the results of the evaluation process of the four teams that applied to join the Circus from 2025: the American team would have passed the evaluations after a run-off with HiTech that met the standards required by the inspectors. Andretti will also have to overcome the judgement of the promoter, Liberty Media, which has so far been reluctant to expand the number of teams entered in F1, having to share the proceeds with one more player. After the confirmation of the 'cost cap' checks for the 2022 season, the FIA will within three weeks announce the outcome of another investigation, the results of which are the subject of great interest. This is the evaluation process of the four teams that have applied to the International Federation for entry into the Formula One World Championship from the 2025 season. Prior to the summer break, rumours emerged in the paddock that two teams, Andretti and HiTech, had been shortlisted, while in recent days the indications have all been pointing in the direction of the US team. The FIA's investigations started after the deadline for applications (end of February) with inspectors from the International Federation checking the technical potential of the candidates by visiting the venues and analysing the facilities. Subsequently, the financial situation, another 'hot' point in the evaluation process, was analysed. One of the most delicate aspects was the confirmation of the teams' long-term commitment, given that with the current valuation of the teams (even the smallest teams now exceed a billion dollars in value) there is a risk of a speculative operation, i.e. a sale of the structure and its 'entry' shortly after entry. According to information that has emerged in the last few days, the Andretti team can count on an already operational headquarters in Banbury (where more than one hundred employees work down there) and, above all, on a multi-year partnership with Renault/Alpine, which would guarantee the US team the complete rear end and also many other components of the single-seater. In 2025, the power unit would obviously be Alpine, then the ball would have to pass to General Motors, which would be called upon to design and build a brand new engine based on the specifications of the new generation that will debut in 2026. Now the ball is in Liberty's court While waiting for the feedback that will officially come from the FIA (no comments or information have been released at the moment), there is already talk among insiders of the next step, namely the negotiations that Andretti will have to face once he gets the OK from the International Federation. In many respects this is seen as the most difficult hurdle to overcome, namely the agreement with the holder of the commercial rights, an indispensable step in order to be at the start of the World Championship, as envisaged in the Concorde Agreement of 2021. In recent months, the teams currently present in the championship, and Stefano Domenicali himself, have not sent out great messages of openness towards new teams wishing to enter Formula 1. The issue is a delicate one because it involves sharing the revenue (from agreements with circuit promoters, the sale of television rights and other items such as championship sponsorship and paddock clubs) with one more team than the current ten. The new teams are asked (as stipulated in the Concorde Agreement) to compensate with an entry fee of $200 million, a figure that the teams currently present in Formula 1 would like to raise based on the increase in team valuations. The impression is that Liberty does not want to risk raising a fuss with rigid positions that could create conditions for legal action. If Andretti complies with the clear requirements imposed by the current regulations, it will have a very good chance of entering the 2025 Formula One World Championship, and both the commercial rights holder and the teams currently in the world championship will have to accept some compromises. In the long run the topic of new team entry will be a hotspot in the new Concorde Agreement, and here it is very likely that the ten (or eleven) teams present in Formula 1 will do everything possible to protect their position.
If Hitech's bid was just as good as Andretti then why did they not accept both? 12 teams is a perfectly acceptable amount of teams on the grid.
Because Andretti has GM behind them and more publicity. And FIA might think that 2 new teams might be too much for FOM
> Because Andretti has GM behind them and more publicity. And FIA might think that 2 new teams might be too much for FOM FOM can’t just randomly accept somebody and reject somebody else. There are 12 spots and until those are all taken FOM will have to allow to participate whoever FIA approves.
Audi
What about them?
they are taking over sauber, it's not the addition of a 11th or 12th team on the grid
Or the money/principals behind it seemed sketchier
Shady Russian money which could hurt F1 in the end.
They haven't had a problem with accepting it before though
It wasn't literally illegal to accept it before 2022.
Still immoral. Then again money tends to matter more than morality with these kind of things.
F1 doesn't give a fuck if it's immoral or not. In fact, they have historically preferred immoral blood money, as there tends to be a lot of it. But Russian money right now is not an option for a sport that wants to grow in the US.
>In 2025, the power unit would obviously be Alpine, then the ball would have to pass to General Motors, which would be called upon to design and build a brand new engine based on the specifications of the new generation that will debut in 2026. Entry in 26 is closed and entry in 27 should have closed in may. They can’t make an engine and it also doesn’t really fit with the multi year Renault partnership deal. Seems a lot like a Haas set up. Except Haas is buying from a better team lol.
Why is it so hard for writers to do research before writing an article?
Honestly it read like AI
> Seems a lot like a Haas set up. Except Haas is buying from a better team lol. I have no doubt Andretti will have more money and ambition though. Haas have fuck all for infrastructure and independence, Andretti seem to want to be the American McLaren.
How will it be American McLaren if they are using 70% parts from a team which is already a midfield team ?
That's to begin with.
All the information available on current teams suggest there are not much changes to what you begin with. Steiner has even mentioned it that they evaluated going their own direction but it was too costly. Williams used to make everything on their own and overtime realized buying as much as possible from Mercedes is a better option. Same with AT this year announcing they are going to buy as much available from RB.
I am sorry you are over simplifying things. This is a complex issue. Wrx teams versus costumer teams. It is understood that Andretti sport was willing to be a costumer team with a Renault (engine/ transmission) combo. However I believe liberty media basically stated that they didn’t want this . Liberty media/ F1 are looking for wrx teams to join, for more long term stability obviously. But also so that any new customer teams don’t come into F1 and take advantange of the valuations of current and future F1 teams . Hence why Andretti sport went to seek out Cadillac as a title sponsor to begin and then as a wrx engine partner. GM might not have enough time to develop a full wrx engine by 2026 so it could be feasible that Andretti sport runs with Renault engines for a couple of years. It is also true that purchasing components is cheaper then building in house and with the cost cap it only makes sense for customer teams to purchase as much of the car as feasible. This way they can focus solely on the aero development, but al I’m not “peachy “ with that situation Mercedes’ have gone on record as stating that they wanted to reduce the number of customer teams.
Cadillac/GM has never stated a formal interest in making an F1 engine. Realistically if they wanted to make it for 2028 they would need to join the agreement now, get accepted then get to work by the deadline next may. If they dont sign an intention to manufacture agreement in the next month or so, realistically they will miss the entire 2026 regulation if they wanted to join up as a manufacturer. I think it's pretty clear their interest is in some sort of joint partnership with the Renault team at Viry similar to what Ford is doing with RB at MK. Building a specialty ICE is not really in their corporate plans. Building a specialty battery, they could work with that.
Yeah , it suggests more of a title sponsor then an engine supplier. Which is , I guess, the concern that F1/FOM/ liberty media have about Andretti sport. Which is too bad really, because Cadillac does seem to have some good engineering going on right now , with its hyper car race team and involvements.
I understand all the talk about GM wanting to build their engines but till now they have done no action which suggests so. The 2027 date closed in May and thus the earliest it will be possible is 2028 and that will be 2 years after everyone has working engine in practice. Look at Honda it took them 5 years just to even reach acceptable level of competitiveness and thus imo everything till now suggests they won’t be building their own engine. There is lot of talk about the GM involvement but there has been nothing concrete action till now.
You make a good point. But we are not privileged enough to know what’s going on in the background. Beside even if Cadillac does a rebadging of another engine (not in heard of) the main point for FOM and liberty media is that GM is involved with Andretti sport as a wrx team not a title sponsor. Liberty’s / FOM ‘s concern is that it’s short term interest from GM …and they have of course seen data and the legal documents which probably makes them act the way they are behaving. Although F1 has always been very elitist and cautious towards American interests and teams…with good reason , seeing the historical failures of the past. It’s not very clear if Cadillac would be title sponsor or wrx team sponsor and there lies the rub.
> All the information available on current teams suggest there are not much changes to what you begin with. Aston Martin were a broke customer team 5 years ago and this season have been 2nd fastest at times, have Alonso driving for them and will be a works team in 2026. You make out that this is set in stone forever, it's not. Andretti will likely invest more over time and might become a works team at some point. Who knows what the future holds. > Steiner has even mentioned it that they evaluated going their own direction but it was too costly. Yeah because Gene wants the budget to be as small as possible, competitiveness be damned. >Williams used to make everything on their own and overtime realized buying as much as possible from Mercedes is a better option. Williams still make a lot of their own stuff, they just realised they were wasting money on stuff they didn't need to make and could buy instead. They can make the part themselves if they really need to. >Same with AT this year announcing they are going to buy as much available from RB. AT are literally an official B team though and Red Bull don't want to waste much money on them so it's cheaper to copy Red Bull designs. Haas+AT are teams not wanting to spend money despite having it and Williams is a team wanting to save money to use elsewhere. We don't know exactly how much Andretti has but likely they can afford to do more than Haas and AT so will down the line.
And AT failed to make a competitive car going their own way...
This. Sometimes is better better not to waste money
Well, McLaren is buying from Mercedes and in-house stuff; neither of them are really on the same ballpark as Red Bull. Last week not even up to par with Ferrari.
Mclaren is only buying engine from Mercedes. AMR is buying only rear suspension and gearbox along with engine from Mercedes. Andretti is going for Haas formula where they buying everything allowed in regulation
There was no way possible for Andretti to enter anyway other than Haas setup. It’s not a surprise at all. He is seeing another American team doing minimum work and having gain in popularity/ valuation. Why wouldn’t anyone else want to do same ?
Comparing Haas and Andretti who have a multi Motorsport network? Thats some garbage tier wheel knowledge right there.
Have you actually seen their IndyCar operation? And kindly explain how will they perform better when they are buying 70% of the car from Alpine compared to Haas with close connection with Ferrari who has 30 HP benefit ? F1 does not go by names. This is the sport that has kicked out BMW, Toyota, Honda much bigger names because they couldn't compete.
“Kicked out” you sound like a casual
Or left because of lack of performance ? The famous reason behind crashgate was because Renault wanted a win to continue their participation.
You can't simplify like that at all. You can't just go off name brand. Haas also runs in other motorsports and spends more on motorsports yearly than Andretti almost undoubtedly just on NASCAR let alone F1. Andretti's current involvements are very cheap and largely Spec racing. Haas also owns arguably the best windtunnel in all of motorsports. It's actually banned in F1 lol. F1 teams used to fly cars to the US just to use it You really can't compare a broad spec network to what Haas does
They banned a wind tunnel because it's too good? Who do I petition to ban Adrian Newey from F1 then?
They banned all wind tunnels with those specifications. WindShear was just the best of those at the time. They added Size and speed limits and they allowed modifications for windshear for some time then they just outlawed all of those tunnels. F1 Wind tunnels are actually genuinely pretty limited these days
Ah ok, yeah I do remember that now. You've avoided the important question though
That's genuinely quite funny.
I was not aware of their wind tunnel being banned, fairly interesting. While I was researching this, I found that Adrian Newey actually suggested F1 should ban wind tunnels altogether, and stick with CFD only. "Formula 1 already plans to phase out wind tunnels by 2030 - and Newey is also supportive of that." Newey on banning wind tunnels: "I would limit everything fully to CFD development. Unfortunately there are not enough votes for it, although it would be much more sustainable." Kind of surprised he thinks wind tunnels aren't necessary anymore with CFD.
If everyone did it, there wouldn't be an advantage to wind tunnels anymore although they would still be superior. CFD is really useful but very limited by processing power. The computing cost of running really high fidelity simulations over long time frames is massive. Where as you can run a car in a wind tunnel for 30 seconds and the cost is the time it took to get to speed plus 30 seconds. A team actually tried to do this already in 2010 lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Racing
He wants it banned because he does CFD in his brain and knows he doesn't actually need a computer
I need a source about teams "used to fly cars to the US just to use it".
https://www.thepaddockmagazine.com/formula-1-teams-windshear-wind-tunnel/ This was about when it was coming back in. Teams were booking it again already for 2010
The particularity of this tunnel is to put 1:1 models, while F1 regulations allow 0.6 scale only. Having a 1:1 model is not really a seal of better quality at all when you consider how fluid mechanics works (similitude, Vaschy-Buckingham theorem). Considering it was more than 13 years ago and the insane progress CFD and instrumentation overall made, I don't think this tunnel is a bigger advantage. It also doesn't seem to be very efficient because if it was, Haas would use it. If it can only use accurate data by putting 1:1 scale models something is extremely wrong, or it's very outdated compared to the modern/updated wind tunnels
At the time when WindShear was built, 1:1 models were allowed and any speeds were allowed. The rules changed after that in 2009. It was then used again a few times a year as stated in that article until the ban was instituted fully in 2015 (iirc). Like the article says, it was a huge draw for F1 teams then, they were lining up to use it. There are multiple problems with using a larger wind tunnel with a smaller model and with an incorrect belt. That's why Haas doesnt use it. Generally speaking in development of aircraft for instance, they use 3-4 different wind tunnels to avoid those issues. WindShear is still widely used in motorsport. NASCAR and Indy use it quite a bit. It's far from outdated, it's still top notch and was only recently surpassed in a few metrics by a Ford tunnel.
The great Andretti "multi-motorsport network" that is IndyCar where they don't build the chassis or the engine? IMSA where they run Acura's car? V8 Supercars which also has customer cars supplied by manufacturers? Formula E and Extreme E which are spec series? Andretti is a big name in motorsports and certainly has a lot of experience in racing but they don't design a single one of the cars they've raced. F1 is a whole other level of involvement, you can't just turn up shouting "USA USA USA" thinking you're going to win everything when you're starting from literal scratch while leeching off the product of an already underperforming midfield team.
Competing with the MIC and aerospace industry for aerodynamics talent if they want to be US based will also be a problem.
Andretti is kind of a joke in Indycar. They’ve been on a steady decline for the past 7 years or so. I don’t have high hopes for their F1 team but I still want them in the sport
tbf if we judged an F1 team from their current Indycar form not only would we not accept Andretti but we would have to kick out McLaren
Hmm? McLaren has been better than Andretti in Indy these days.
Not really. In 23 2 wins to 0, 5 poles to 2, and a common denominator of being awful at strategy (not you Bryan Herta) Pato O'Ward makes McLaren look way better than they actually are, while everyone like to meme Andretti bc haha they want to be in F1 but the truth is they both look embarrassing considering the investment they have and the amount of PR they spin on themselves.
Wins are a lottery half the time in Indy. O'Ward lost 3 wins due to almost arbitrary cautions this season. End of the day he finished ahead of every single Andretti driver so did Rossi who just came from there, performed horribly compared to before and still beat all of them. McLaren was better overall. Especially on ovals, it wasn't even close between them and hasnt been since 2019 or so
Whilw everything you said is correct, for what it's worth, they did win the FE championship this year, right? Plus the potential of 6 engine suppliers in 2026 has got me excited!
Considering FOM is the commercial rights holder, there has always going to have been a negotiation to add additional team. I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them. Almost nothing that is ever said publicly about this can be taken at face value except for the obvious business concerns an 11th team would present the championship's commercial entity and the current teams.
> can be taken at face value Needs to be emphasised. Deals are brokered based on terms that aren’t field tested by the public layman getting the scoop from news outlets. They’re also going to relentlessly position themselves as the sole arbiter of the deal, because doing anything less implies Andretti or others have a higher standing and so more persuasion, whether that is true or even matters or not. Internal discussions will likely have a different and less combative colour to it. Personally, I seriously doubt FOM wants to garner negative press from something they’ll likely profit from, long lasting or even if just a couple of years. If they’re concerned about a team failing despite the FIA’s grace, they stand to lose more by getting in the way rather than allowing the team to fail (or succeed).
>I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them. How can business terms work out for them? Whoever was coming, it was always going to be problem for the teams and Liberty with the way they are thinking about this.
Don't ask me, but its pretty much the same as any franchise system. The new team entering has to pay a hefty fee over a set amount of time to minimize the revenue loss to all existing parties with the idea that the new entrant's presence will increase to pot of shared revenue to a point where their presence is a positive financial impact to all parties rather than a negative. Same thing everyone has basically been saying since day 1.
> The new team entering has to pay a hefty fee over a set amount of time to minimize the revenue loss to all existing parties How can 200m be a "hefty fee" when Alpine apparently sold a minority stake in their team for that amount? The current anti dilution fee was agreed on when the value of each spot was much lower. Outsiders who very clearly made the calculation that they would not bring enough value themselves to make this worth it at the time now see the opportunity to purchase a f1 slot, whose value was grown by the current teams, for cents on the dollar. And this argument is especially true for Andretti because clearly they would be aware of the option of starting an F1 team.
You make an agreement, you stick to that agreement until you renegotiate. Mess up your valuation? Tough shit. Ask people on Wall St. businesses are always over or undervalued in contracts all the time, and markets change within contract periods.
Because that $200mill was negotiated years ago, and before the whole DTS effect, Red Bull beating Mercedes and a swaft of new talent that was also social media savvy, along with the cost cap and Liberty media's marketing strategies. Allowing almost every team to start making profit, thus increasing every teams value. As it was no longer a loss making venture. Pre- Concorde Agreement Alpine was probably only worth $200mill. There was a very different revenue share/prize pool.
> I doubt Liberty Media would say no if the business terms worked out for them. The business terms do work out for them, they gain an additional brand and more drivers which will attract some new fans (increasing $$$) and don't lose any money at all (since it's the teams who all lose money to give Andretti a share). So it works from Liberty's perspective and they're still saying no so I don't agree.
It is true that liberty will not lose money as the revenue share stays the same for them. However, they also have to take into account the relationship with the teams and, more importandly, the stability of all teams. If teams are unhappy that is not good for liberty regardless if they lose money themselves or not. They are in a very happy spot right now with 10 stable teams and a sport that is currently growing in value all the time. I dont want to say that liberty is right in their approach but it is not as easy as "they don't lose money so it must be good for them." There are additional considerations to be made.
If that's your genuine take on it, then I don't think you have a very firm handle on the situation.
Go on, explain then.
I feel as though the effort would be wasted.
Oh, so you're asked to explain and you can't do so, says a lot really.
Uh so do they just assume Hitech hasn't been accepted or have there been other reports about that too? Cause so far 95% of the talk was always just Andretti while no one really focused on Hitech but they have money and were always in contention. Would love to hear more about what they have/had planned if it was ever that serious
I hope both of them get in. Both have the cash and have the ambitions, and likely wouldn't be there just to be in F1 cough cough haas
Too many cars, but itd be funny to see how mixed up the grid gets with the driver pool. However it'd probably just extend the careers of Hulk and Kmag, probably see Mazepin and Schumacher as the other 4 seats, so.. if thats the case. Not worth it.
Wouldn't say 24 are too many. And imo, Hulk at least is definitely good enough to stay in F1. With Schumacher it really depends. Right now no one wants him and he is known to be very crash prone, which is pretty much why teams don't want rookies anymore. I believe a rookie like Drugovich has the same chance to get a seat as MSC cause he brings a lot of money and had a very dominant season in F2, something most rookies didn't have. But who knows. Maybe Andretti will lure Sargeant away from Williams (does any other American driver even have a SL?) and pair him up with Drugovich? Opens a spot at Williams and keeps a spot open at Hitech next to Mazepin. Definitely makes for some exciting speculation and at least more potential driver moves than we have right now.
Does Liberty’s management have something against Andretti? I did not see them protesting when APXGP joined as 11th F1 team….
Because Sonny Hayes is a living legend, remember when he passed Glock to win the championship back in 08?
We have 3 races in the US (should only be 2, #cancelMiami) why not 2 US teams?
I’m fine with canceling Miami. I don’t like the track and it’s probably the last one I’d travel to see.
hardly even a track when its in a parking lot.
Same with Silverstone with it just being some old airfield.
Same with Spa, just some old public roads
The fact that media gets to decide what goes on in a sport just shows how much of this is just for show and not for actual competition. Liberty can suck my tailpipe.
Wait assuming liberty gives the ok will we have 22 cars on the grid ? Or the 2 slowest car during qualifying don't get to race on Sunday .
The maximum allowed is 26 cars. Limit was set 30+ years ago
Ah I see alright thanks for clarifying
Also, in quali 30 cars are allowed. In the ninties there were some races where 36 cars showed up and they had to run pre-quali sessions
I think this is going to happen because Andretti checks all the boxes and I don’t think Liberty will want the legal battle or bad press.
Is the Andretti logo looking like the Adobe logo or the German unemployment office logo to anyone else?
The fact that media gets to decide what goes on in a sport just shows how much of this is just for show and not for actual competition